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When a Killer Calls /// Part 3 /// 555

2022-02-01 | 🔗

When a Killer Calls /// Part 3 /// 555

Part 3 of 3 


This week we have a real treat for all of our Garage friends. A three part series featuring an in depth case review by the True Crime Garage guys that includes rare audio from the killer. In Part 3 Nic is joined in the Garage by  best selling author and Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas. Join us for a fascinating conversation about the case of Shari Faye Smith and Debra May Helmick, F.B.I strategies, Serial Killers and the sadistic criminal mind. Gather 'round, grab a chair, grab a beer and join us for this special three part series. 

Recommended Reading: When a Killer Calls; A Hunting Story of Murder, Criminal Profiling, and Justice in a Small Town

This is the latest book from Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, the best selling authors of Mindhunter. 

Our show - True Crime Garage “Off the Record” is available only on Stitcher Premium. For a FREE month of listening go to http://stitcherpremium.com/truecrimegarage and use promo code GARAGE

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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This is true grand garage. This is part three of wooded killer couples
always excited to have Mr John Douglas here with us in the garage. This is the third time that you ve come and graces, with your presence and we are excited as we always are to chat with you and today we're too about your new book when a killer cause. This is a fascinating story from the maid eighties that took place in south carolina with a very, very horrific case and tragic case, but one that really not only will appeal to our listeners heels to me as kind of a case study, but the the criminal mary, jean bell, just fastened eating an absolutely bizarre, his crimes that he can. It in the way that he not just committed these cry.
but also emotionally tortured his victims and their families right. douglas. One thing that I found incredibly fascinating about the detail. Of your new book. It really and on a lot of the communications that Larry jean bell felt were necessary to him when committing the crimes that he did and so killers communicate with the media, some with law enforcement from you. sperience. Why do you think some choose to communicate with media and others choose to communicate with law enforcement. her cases and viewed the demonstrators, bt case strangler and just a they're all for power. All these crimes are sense of power and control, and the summit like good the shredder or the zodiac it so they want.
more than just local attention. They walked national national attention in the case of it. Then I just wrote about wanna kill a cause I never really had a case like this before because it's the signature of the that's at an aspect of it, ace as unnecessary to perpetrate. The case was in need of such a cat asset and his need was too statistically torture, the families. sheriff smith I flew to victims while the surest smith giving initially false hope that that their daughter was still alive, and then having victim rightly last will intestine it that he would mail or to the family. And sharply smith is, is now saying
By to a family, it was just an unbelievable family, the religious faith, They had a meal. It was emotionally dry for me and everyone else involved in the year in the case, but this guy This guy, then last week and testament he says communications initially he's disguising his voice, and we send me the tapes of the fbi lad and they say hasn't happily and monitoring device on the phone. I wish here is how something about his background is profile, isn't his intelligence. our he was changing his voice case went on after appeared a tie. You start using that that device, because he was gaining confidence. You just felt that he was not you're, not catchable, no known whatever identify him, but when this case kip evolving get going on and on and then
with the families on working with the sister, her sister, nay, dawn, to use as a bait, really to get this guy keep communicating with us because the more he communication, the more we You had to learn about him, but it is very difficult in the is because we have to keep him on the phone for such a long period of time up to fifteen fifteen minutes before we can the traps and trace it. He was well aware that so how to work with the with the system sheriff smith and basically cannot give a like canada costume negotiating skills, and that is like our phrase and restate the content that is try to whatever telling you just keep like confirming that you understand what I'm saying, but he was too sharp at the time he would even death a bell honest. But one of the worst things about it was is horrific. Was that the mother,
receive some of the costs, as well as the sister die, and then the mother ask him the mothers my daughter notion. was going to die and bells yes, so she did rejoice and she could take up overdose, gunshot or suffocation? And you, selected suffocation authority did he you proceeded to use that tape. While she was alive and duct tape turn her head, then he waits he waits days with a body to decompose before he tells us that tells a family now dawn the other, the other sister, where we can find fine sheriff, say smith. Reason that began that something about two, because he doesn't want to leave anything forensically for us to determine like the cause of death to locate. I gotta Herod, five ravenous, but we could see is that the wind
We know about the duct tape just by the evidence as she her hair after he duct tape. Her head he removed the doktor. Was he wanted a singer prince a press on adapting and he and of cunning some of the hair on her head to totally remove the duct tape, but from us so that it was just It was just an unbelievable caisson and to set up, he saw communicate that there was a problem when I find it went down to accept communicating with the police. With the family. I had to get him to talk. I had to get him to get back on phone, so While I sat down with the investigative reporter and a totally investigative reporter that I wanted her to come up with a story where sheriff is, is burying want, haven't memorials service and
I'm not gonna write for you. I can't do that. It's an asia, but I want to be the poetic and we're gonna set up at the grave over to put lectern her white like time with charities picture on it and when is that the house I asked the seashore face: bedroom and dawn her sister show me, the bedroom and another better or worse supine thousands of of koala theirs. So I think you my brain. What can I can I do here? What can I do and I saw small while there was hanging from a string and it took that you pay the shoulders and opens up enough. Thank you without telling anyone, How did he uses the grave site? I'm gonna have a dog now. He was targeted door. The other sister place that at the up at the grave side on a flower in the hope is nick, is that he will we'll his curiosity, but we do know from the research I conducted of my colleagues
why to collect souvenirs momentous relative to the to the cry. So did all dont. All those things are unfortunately for this, perspective had no control over this shoes. very, very, very close to the road, and he would not take that kind of risk we were monitoring the vehicles, and would catch him another way by have we not call him another way that we talk about in the book we want if we were to come across some eventually, because we we have is a license plate number. He said along with other cars, and we were recording all of those vehicles and from him once we do as a criminal check on these who stopping mood fine with him that he had history, criminal, history of attempted abduction early on in his life, he was involved in obscene telephone calls.
You try to adopt a nine year old girl. Besides a year another teenager, so but got him sooner sooner than later, but we got a mother waste, forensically wondering that I found incredibly fascinating and I'd love when it a great book comes out on a case in particularly one that fits into this room. For me, where this is a case that I thought that I knew very well and then I read your new book when a killer calls and figure out, I only new kind of the tip of the iceberg here, there's a lot to digest and allowed to take in from your new book now. One thing I picked up while reading is that it almost appears to me in bizarre way- and this is something I didn't know before- the Larry was in love- were in his in his own Our way thought he was in love with sherry, face smith,
He would say later on and he was stalking hurry. He came across her in a parking lot: So he was gas availing her end. on a particular day of the adoption she was with a boyfriend. I just left the pool party and we would find out later on? He was in at parkland who was watching than they were kissing, and then there are none after that they said goodbye to each other. Her boyfriend, richer and he told her home. He fell home very closely. Has she put were driveway and pulled a vehicle up to the house. He never would have pulled into the driveway warehouse back about two hundred yards from the mailbox. She stopped the vehicle at the mailbox to check the mail and at that point is when he pulls up behind her is mode operandi. Will we know got we lay would find out yet guy. We assume you would have something like that to gain a kind of control, He also had a camera and you take. It was taking pictures over any
I'm surprised as a nice guy and a guy. You know people delicate criminals, they think they could. They look a certain way. This guy looks like you're you're next door. Neighbor eddie, you could be any Anyone know: what's he got her close to the earth is vehicle and ass when you went wrapper, but he had this this fantasy and but the fantasy you see, can only last a short period of time, because, on the point of adoption to the point of killing her, only several hours several hours then- and so he had a perpetual with this and ask why then he shifted or to the system and then for she was very very nice- were very polite her, but then he goes out and he had ducks and kills a nine year old child whose playing in front of her her residence are the family just moved into this trailer park and she's out in the yard very boldly poles confronted grabs a nine year old child takes off with her
vehicle, but I'm not good enough description to where we can identify and he and always and ways, and then it cause up the first family, the smith, family and dawn tells dawn usage. Do you remember that abduction data growth ever helmet she's. Yes, she says. Well, guess who these directions, the directions where we can find the by in, like her sister He waited for the body to be an advanced stages of decomposition. Before I he gave us that the location of her. But all this began, we did a profile. The police department, licence police reform, its tremendous to tremendous, parliament both the sheriff neander sheriff, attended the fbi national academy, which is in a letter we programme and the fbi train about a thousand police officers a year worldwide, and so they need to one
ass they took was in my area in criminal, profiling. Criminal psychology like so many cops wants to go back to the department. I think will never have a case like this and sure enough here they get hit by this case and then take the contact us the real issues without would always go out. In cases that in most of the cases are, can Oliver cases home again old, all cases. But if we're involving a case where that the centre is killing and ice chilling again- and you probably want to kill one time have been identified, we're goin out it. Just like the atlantic shall killing case. I'm it out. Seem cause. You're only are developed. an analysis, but there was so much Now I have to go on site, I got I do see for myself and work with the investigators you know, I say so this department, They were very, very, very opened suggestions into proactive techniques. This is like.
Eighteen, eighty five neck in june yeah, my background in nineteen. Eighty, through the end of eighty three november december, I nearly died on the green river murder case. just burned out advice, if a light is a key moment in a wheelchair, so really lost my confidence in, and I didn't While I would miss a beaten so by now and eighty four we'll have to die before they get help somehow now Give me that give me, I just feel you select their good, invest hence the trainer, but it takes a while to train them. So that's what I hear this He comes up now, nit nit. Eighty five now I gotta go. I gotta go, I cite and provide I say consultation gonna, bring it relatively new asian good asia by roughly new asia in my programme with the equipment. The pros
we did turn out to be very, very accurate. I think we just missed the age with ivy between a late one. The early thirties. He was past thirty, four thirty five, which is an issue that is bad. everything else about him. His we felt you have to have some kind of electrical power, Well, he was an electrician body type. We felt it would be a big slovenly type. we felt he was obsessive, compulsive reasoning for that is because you can When he was calling the family are, he would follow a script. It was asked the question in the middle of his his lecture to to die of the mother who throw em off so that he had a repeat had had to read repeat himself. okey was, would be the obsessive, compulsive types kind of a guy who you going you going to do, I could see you see I have outlined were the screwdriver. hangs over the the hammer hangs outline that close, it would be
orderly and in his closet in his personal appearance with looked where's the vehicle and we want we were. We felt Galaxies could not have any kind of way a normal relationship with women that he probably was married previously, mary, in the past. When she saw tat. He was previously Mary had had a son, the criminal history had that, as I mentioned earlier, we have all that so and do the profile that then you have to really there. In fact, when I just retired from the bureau couple years. I was gonna getting away from the demographic profile. One more to get into proactive techniques. I wanted the public to know I wanted to public to know more about terrific saw the behavioral patterns, because if you do that, profile any release. It publicly retracted I'll leave but saying this.
The age you saying the guy's, a high school dropout gonna have a call college but everything else may fit well. A person may say g everything fits this guy. I know what the educational but the so I was getting away from That's a focusing more on professed behaviour and post the fence post the festival, what was behaviour leading up to the crime? What would have happened to him after the crying? Like this case, we call the police the changing his personal appearance. We believe which he did do and things like that and then what can I do, too many causes, subject to inject himself into the police investigation to go to the grave site? I had a cheap contact in the family, which was very stressful. Mister I was gonna hannan hon about what I was going to be
and what was on my mind, I want to use the daughter s kind of lore end. Just tell me with What what's she I knew, my own youth? Who do you think it soundness almost smith? I said deal with somebody here. This is not. The type is gonna pull into this driveway and and and hurt anyone he's not that type. But I can see what what's happening here is that he is transforming Now his you're his fondness, his fantasy towards dawn here at night, I need dawn need dawn tooth. the lure him it had to get him to communicate, to communicate with us, and then he agreed. He agree with me in and on another whitefish, very religious family, she's she's part church and in the south,
a liner and sheep preaches as a beautiful boy. She sings the sheriff day. Beautiful girl here it is on a friday. Nathan first she's graduating sunday from high school she's good. Seeing the national anthem at her a graduation. I communicate with the family thursday at me all these years, and they set up a fund for sharply smith like participated, raising money for scholarship for she won't, they got you into music, so it's just emotionally emotionally just out my physically other data, and the doktor said hey you. How do you do sleeping giant, asleep pleasure? I guess I can't sleep. I have. I have a very difficult time sleeping here. I sit with me. I get up with three or four clapping toward morning, but my butt.
We appreciate it. I just think is that it is always thinking of things were cases that are desperate by worker than upcurling involved. I mean the job market you're almost took your life. I remember reading in one of your earlier books, where you said you were working so much that you almost prayed that you would you don't? You would try to think about the cases up to the point of falling asleep. Tells you dream about the cases, so you can continue working while you're sleeping yeah, I would I would go to bed was quite quiet and trying to come up with ideas. Help me help me come up with it. Ideas and I kept a pad paper? If I wake up, I thought of something I would write dogs and afraid I was nigh to forget about it. You know it's interesting. Is it watch television and see the shows narrow thing, but the degree today that all new to me
forensic psychology but you're. So many peoples on the young people too. And the majority are minorities. As do I go on to public speaking, eighty nights. Are we they're interested in the steel, but I had to tell him this job that can be hazardous to your health and as such, is the suit the other people that when in burma, in my unit because you really have to throw yourself into it: understanding and walking the shoes of the subjects, as well as of the victim, and not do not work in one case at a time given time the agency. yeah we're doing two thousand cases a year for twelve twelve agent profiles and myself and were also it meaning secret service was training training you would think that they had a programme. Didn't you have a programme like this, you think they would have
tracy preservers of your alcohol, tobacco and firearms. The volume of work and the nature of the work, and that's why right leaning so the time work on you. dial up into your training couple hundred cos I know my mature over well, so my mouth is talking, but my brain is thinking of cases I gotta go up to alaska work. name rob? I know with later eyes. His name was robert hazard. Are the answer is up there, the abducting women hunting down like wild animals. He would fly up into the wilderness stricken down naked and hudson onto their. I gotta go to. Seattle can carry through a greener murder case and have all these the so I have an anxiety, tack. Nick. I think I'm good at it. in a heart attack and the the audience gaza
They know materials. My mouth is moving, but sweating horse power and africa cinemas regroup, guy regroup. So I regroup No one really detected anything as far as I know, but when I came back to quantico, I knew something happened to me. I may die something bad. so I took out income protection, sure ass. I took out extra life insurance and tell anyone. That's all my family are anything but the day I had to go out on a green of a murder case. I said to my wife at home, that she's school teacher, I drove over to say goodbye to her again But why are you going out there? What were you doing this? I said I have to ask you for on site council patients have to train slew. He's too, ages they signed me took to my unit You don't look well your eyes. I saw you, I have a tremendous had
what was happening nick was my brain was swelling up apparently later on the doctors say. My new system was just so so low when I like back in a wheelchair, from this agreement in that was to be there and that are as well as military, the veteran cemetery through making plants, because my eye collapsed back at the hotel room and as you know, you read my hundred. I know you did and end up authority flew. I and my brain was swelling I told the agencies tuesday night I'll see you friday. We had backed quantico in fact dc and that at least cable, see friday, and at this what I told what to do when you go back to the task force, last night, I collapse that I remained on the floor until friday to lick kick down the door when they found me. My bodies and fraud, like a position now
they said every thirty seconds when that my body starts shaking and trembling like crazy in my face would become distorted. Emergency people came first responders. My body temperature was between one hundred and four one hundred and seven, and what happened was it it? My brain split: am I right temporal lobe at which would cause temporary as amazing eyed and over this, the temporary paralysis that they thought. The sure that I was going to I was going to die from that end, Me, though, the neck and amy a better leader have good leader, because the people at the do this work they throw themselves into it and when I was sick people in my user who are giving every drop of sweat and blood to help others,
I was telling to go home and then they start to go home, but with the case of the you know you in the bureau it. So it is seen the bureau you're not supposed to allow agents. Do you get site that now, and so I would break all your only under the rules, but it just made I've got about a person here, but I guess I keep getting caught in the abyss. I keep like we go out to the cemetery where I was going to be buried with my date. When I feel like I hear it goes out, you can't I got I have no control or what's going on, just so much so much to at so many calls come in there whether its profiles also hush negotiator, so he's young kids, as do I tell me, is it this is not like the legs
sixty minutes show or something you watching on television when, when you see if this is this death, dying and as even murders, victims of rape and these child abductions, child shall killings and then the impact out it has on families, and I have families negative this. This is unbelievable with who want me to tell them is, in a case of say, homicide how there on how their child died? What do the killer specifically do? Did my child suffer it or did she die quickly? Did my child put up a fight and at first I wouldn't I couldn't do it, but then they mad at you, and it's just like one family members they want to go in the morgue realize. This is always work with victims of violent crime. They want to see
themselves what what took place it to their the love one and she's figured protecting about not just kick a window, they get angry, not they want for themselves? They wanted they wanted to do just to see what their loved one month ruins and suffered. So Guess it's emotionally draining has just as and when you were so many cases is he has achieved. You know, I'm you so I go sees shrank away when I came back, I like tawny, soprano going to a shriek of esa and the test they gave me they you burn, cannot both answer destiny. Get you get, you can have a heart attack. I was exercising by exercising to the point of Exhausting my soldiers tries scattered none my feelings out with shut. I couldn't do it I reckon do so. I find any help discussing
He helped mean me dick the train somebody overnight. It takes about two years to train somebody like than any profession, it's all five years before they really start getting good you're actor at what they do don't talk a lot nick factional chicken in Iraq they'll trying to get good at what I do. But it's you know you didn't have to pinch yourself to know that you are human. If it's not your heart, in its your soul, that really infected your brain and and the stresses what almost took you die. Because I can only imagine you're sitting there. You know you're being move, all over the country to take on these different adventures, but here you are in new york in trying to teach in what you know better. You know inside you're better, equipping these on enforcement officers to to increase their tool box and do a better job become more efficient and what they do. So you or helping, but the whole time in the back your mind, you're going. What am I doing here
I'm not in alaska than we're losing lives. That idea, I'm not saving lives. While in alaska dealing with bad bob Hansen you're in the back your mind, one. Why am I not washington their people getting a crazy, an alarming rate in in in the state of washington at the same time so I mean I greatly and not imagine the distressing in the executive at that As a true crime garage listener, you know the world can sometimes be a scary place
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he'll had for years in the military semi using a field hush negotiator, also bank robbery, coordinator neighbouring slots. Couple advanced agrees that point in time, but I was the youngest one and auditing the class is eating structures. They don't have the facts right and they were being challenged by those national academy students in the class who work the charles mass in case of David Berkowitz, son of SAM. I just want to be a good instructor. So that's it! the idea of go into the prisons. And let's talk to the to the experts that then doctor and Burgess joins us from Boston college, and she was also universal pan shoes at both universities came in and took her job with its death. It's not like Netflix Heaven, the general, how she's telling us? How do end user she's basin, academic thomas how to develop the the damning instruments for the interviews. As far as the
use itself. Now, where do an arab developing, proactive your techniques? Now we're doing all that can stuff? and saw nothing, and we now have a blessing. I don't have the blessing of the share of the fbi here in Europe today, my father was alive. This could never even been accomplished and where, at all, he never would have done this and then even then, every dying nineteen. Seventeen so me to stop. What is it? davy sizes, bs cats, starting up the other. Why do you know why you going to these prisons? What were you doing? These noisy senator you so You don't have to support a slightly from the bureau and then, when you go out to the cops initially to cite didn't trust because we were fbi and they thought however, we had we had the agency would dominate the pole, he's or take police work occasion
comes the bureau. Should they be super the case from the and the local police and and I wanted to change the end and by the time, I left the bureau. It was interesting that situation where we can so tight with the local police and really then our agents in charge of our offices field office, so say an occasional good down. They were calling us directly and you tell him he have to go to headquarters the criminals division. Nor will I talk directly to you in your unit. You have to go, and so efficiently We was ok, here's what you do, or here special agent charges leave on fbi, you gotta go. I've here we gotta go before the press. This is what you say. This is what you don't say and I had what get on us, the hell you doing tommy
in short. What to do? Why he's asking us? It is asking us so that that because a lot of stress just see you you're being being treated within the agency that outside the agency, but there is still time we're pretty. Welcome that end, and always credit locally they're, the ones the police, the police, offers an fbi case. The agents, whenever agency didn't you ever saw just a tool and your toolbars it may be able to help you. I may not be able to help you
if you don't realize too, such as these carcase, our pop polygon, unipolar, corruption, cases, foreign counter intelligence. Sweden did ya assessments in those kind of cases in arsons and bombings, product tampering, tylenol case of chicago all kinds of cases, product tampering. They all knew all types of cases that we do so with a great job was a great great but shut people that we had it doing a lot of a lot of work back then we were lucky enough to have, during an burgess on just a few weeks ago, I was a right. Yeah was fascinating to talk with her, but you heard the victim with the victim. She did a lot she's amazing may for her age and she still gone goin out, you know, add object with legs. when she came down
finally, the wendy character, the is she's as she knows it, and nurse forensic from france nursing. Yet they have this flexibility, psychologists and need the mai hunter, the might hunter series and and then her characters, a lesbian and is not less vicious method is several years Several children, by dint of presentation with her blossom college up there and there really thrilled without that she got the other sir. and although the hollywood I the hollywood eyes her role with alibis mike holding forth the actors. Claim like my role in everyone's were hoping that will be assessed three, the actors wanna Susan three up did David ventured the direction and whether or not there-
if it was supposed to be a five parts years, five parts and end the end with two, but they took a year. They took a year for each each those ten episodes in a year for the nine and the film in pittsburgh up in the pittsburgh area. And so they have all relocate. Jonathan growth play my hold it for you. He lives up now, heiresses no problems in the future. There is just so obsessive compulsive that in season two, with its first episode, the actors who tone this year's barbecue seen were built tash, like my partner, he's barbecue slipping hamburgers and hot dogs is back yard, the neighbors revolver and they start asking a question What do you do? Evil science to? used to get really engrossed in that they repeated that
seventy four seventy five times that one c, a flip hamburgers. Seventy end some! I just can't take it, but they can't. They can't do that. That's why the I had a girlfriend, in season what season one other. It's just that It is less than one year I hold it for He's gonna have this relationship in ireland and it will not happen Rafter knows who is greater despite its just, can you can you be that it's really strictly up and over and over the yet? That's why this? He makes his all movies house a car nice
amazing, a series of networks well in season to theirs that the big case, obviously as the atlantic child killings right. If we do make it to seize and three I mean you lived the life. What would be the big case? Would there be one big, case or would it be? Do you think would be more like season one? I know you're not fully in charge here, but the enough. Let what have we like seas of one where it's a lot of smaller cases and smaller. I have very little input. Surprisingly, the actors with surprise at themselves and very little input from the right at all the whole account I came down here I see with how's. Everything could be really dived into it. John graph, please may I did meet him until after you, after the fact and then, if you using my hunter as a guy, line hunter. I
when I was gonna, be one book wonder I can't so that so I like to touch on cases, Lana chalkley, your son and just like the large email case, you don't touch her. You go deep. You tired to go deep deep in better to it, like you can a say book, but there are so many cases. I may make a do the alaskan case. They could do the the trail side and they Do John John, when gacy duped at ted, you're ted bundy They could do I mean just so. You're, so many they can do, is already I didn't have to solve, is only acts, do not solve anything. You can do a case. I gonna take it going to do a tire, tylenol, Kate, yours or uniform. Cases is just, and so many other smaller cases. That thing you could do. I mean those who read. Oh in atlanta case, it didn't happen black, like that work.
Check little more town and want to check in the end is an supper. You're invited me out. I think in the shows, like I'm gonna, go out on a date or something with her but she's and bring me to where they were Many of the victims of family are waiting to check my involvement in get involved. In that case, it didn't go down like that, and if, in very thing when I went down on a case, I mean they raced hell with there. There was a case where the allocation, the girl, it may be only asian who was censured, censured and- and got a letter recommendation than incentive award of the second case spooky behaviour than they love. You have a love, hate relationship, yo, yo, yo with you. They hate me when I came back from england and training Whatever about virginia and tired,
people and corrections, and here a command goes up. About this guy they just arrested in atlanta and I said well, is it? Is it if its features ought to be? The launch arguing is he's. Gonna good for men he's good for men, while the crap hit the fan, the bureau, so that, as spokesperson out the asia charge, the investigation, I thought, is getting fired and then so and ass a case started going and moving along, did the assessment, the profile then a gun bother you up with with the prosecutors and coach the prosecutors in and then criticised the way. The case was going like one data for the hair fibre expert for the defence of the stand and look like the guy
kennedy. The junior good looking guy did no shit from shine all about her forensics, but they did the jurors love. They think they love good, clear how good he was speaking to them as well the neck that afternoon, at this big conference you donegal ramrod. Did you hear that guy you talk about here? Rarely does north Elliot was talking about and going around like the horn around this dictate. What do you say job losing the case you lose in the case, you may not know he's talking about, but you guys from bureau from gee Biagi urgent george appear investigation, you're sort aunt nickel? I have no idea what you're even saying does even makes sense to me. And I know how much is least there, george, you asleep. So
would throw me out of the newest semi back to quantico that I tell him was: what's I'm at all, as it does just eat up we want to get sick and the court in one week from today I go back to quantico Williams, get sick in the courtroom, and I told before why he will get sick and corporate and then actually enough did your ass back here so had backed Five months down there, then a gun while in coaching, prosecute greek, great guy jack mallard and how to cross examined wines was any you take the stand and an albino who was the defence attorney greatly is a great guy got to meet him really.
one of the only wasn't cross examining their anybody else. I knew he would put waves on the stand as because there were losing, but I knew Williams couldn't take. It take any cross examination work with jack jack mallard and he didn't tremendous tremendous job and were broken down on the stand. I know you ve got tat if the profile of the damage waiting by my direction? It you're not gonna, get me to fit and annual issues may know the right now, the the doing an investigation down there because they try to determine convicted at too when we were down there, we thought maybe the ten were related. The other was we. We can see relationship here that at all, what's cases twenty, eight twenty six cases were closed or closed by the police, so they are looking. The parents are demanding that the police will look at these other cases.
Which I was told they were, they were doing yeah, and that has always fascinated me as well, because I kind of feel like in this is just very basic psychology and very my limited understanding. Of course, I'm no expert here, but I look in a case like that, and I see I don't know if, if wayne Williams, the it doesn't seem likely to me that the female victims are his the earth in writing. It doesn't seem likely to me either. That may be, the white victims are his either rat. He seemed to play within a certain site box. If you will, those ones were out of that box in, and I dont know that unless, was some kind of learning curve or you know that he was working on. Maybe there there is some kind of mix up there, but but it does it highly likely to me that there may have been another, so real offender operating sure, roughly about the same time right.
here I was down, oh, I was looking every year and land they had between ten to twelve, a child killings down, allows or even domestic domestic related taxes. Taxes cases see at the time I'm with the case was going on. All parents want the beyond that lists the beyond the list. Even some of the way the kids were killed totally different in the way I believe the ones we selected Powell Williams was responsible whether they want to be analysed, because there was compensation involved with Sammy Davis Jr was down there, frank sinatra, putting on a bigger a presentation, singing singing and raising money, they reason billions millions of dollars and which they were then give to the families. So everyone, one that their child, even though in order
stop them they have is here, but I knew well you imagine that those two females like Andrew one, Angela near now it at your house skill. Pennies was stopping and now she's slavish strangulation, totally you're totally indifferent, I end up and saw the other was soon. Might multiple stab wounds? Are the big with me, was an occasion to say that the offender would be black statistically its white. But generally, when you look at crimes that you are in trouble. in short racial now you do. You will have an offender cross over saves targeting black. It will go with white, but is they haven't? We call preferential dictum preferential age, Preferential sex or even a look, certainly
We have one on the western time was when I was red hair. So so this is because this preference, so with him. Yet he was the thought himself with he had used ham operator, yellow radio station. We can only broadcast a few blocks and is in its neighbourhood. I thought is good. It developed the next jackson find Ah, there was mishandling on a case by the earth even by us, and this was mishandled when he, when he was stopped on average, they could have taken in it. They could have taken taken him in for questioning said they look in the car. They see ligatures in the back of the back seat. the car here, just like one or two o clock in the morning, when I caught a course your splashing in the water, but they didn't do it and then they, the interview to place, I was down in writing as do the enemy
we're way to heart them away too aggressive you're with the same energy, and just by look envy It looks like you wanted to talk any kind of hunger even hung around the office. You afterwards is judged. It is just the opposite. None of you and some people get out at some people are not and when you look at it say like georgia- is this case worry look at. Google, our jean down from a book killer cause. Why will he talk? He faces the death penalty if easily all your aunt shaw killers- are low in the solemn pole, imprisoning often tend to have to segregate there isn t there out again you're. So what can I do you're not gonna do an interrogation, and I could do that and if any of you have a conversation, a conversation with a happy, you have to provide some type of a face: saving,
a scenario. If you give them away, I give them an excuse, excuse weather, Secondly, the side of the personality, personalities. They are saying were sometimes with total investigators. Me, like the speaking, almost reject the blame onto the data that the victim was seduced into panic. To get the confession, you don't you added the person put put in their doing it. That's what you're trying to try to do so, some sakes neighbour, the clear all those cases was wrong and I think that one of the peoples in which is so bizarre, the psychology of it because you almost sitting across from the cap
at the table. You always have to empathize with the stress that they, the criminal, put on themselves by committing these acts and the and the choices in reactions that they had to make. In the heat of the moment, you always have to empathize with that, where we have. a criminal like Larry jean bell? wayne Williams, who are incapable of empathizing with the people that they are killing it's it's just. I is of a weird bizarre. situation, is it s really, as is the yacht you're betraying given false empathy with a snap weathers bell? What I got involved in the interview was supposed to repeat culture. There's, but they want to bring him into the room where I live in the agent run. Walker came with me and was funny the dynamo as the council s down had not prosecute and he soon
these boys here these boys, an fbi, a profile you larry to a profile. Do you did everything about? You came in belgium looking at and then you just leave. It led bell with us in this room and it was this was not planned Had him for hours and hours, police did try to interview, make even in our stuff anything sundown down a couch just coincidence, they happen. Wearing a cow two in the morning were down the other got this guy. Now that and largely belen I was put on his coat, british pass on a white. Surely clinical answer now be free? Was it wasn't done purposely? So I'm sitting right in front of him on table coffee table
and just gonna. Give me historical view of what we do and what I found in those presented. Views is like people. larry I spoke to day I never use or murder killed or any kind of stuff. You do that, but I said they told me it's almost like to give her size upon their theirs That good sign a their and new and when a perpetrate the crimea this? They did it, but it's like a dream, like they're, almost like a dream like state, and I got a good long so if we go on is any just lookin at me, nodding with me then- and I accept
When did you start feeling tat about this case? Larry I'm using an end. He said you just staring at me. He says when I saw the fear, and I saw that newspaper articles and pictures of the family at the cemetery. The end up, that's why I felt tat sick. So why then ice shift from that I get it to the three other side you could be to size and then possibly with counter confession was the he says. All I know is that the the good large indo china done something like this, but the bad laboratory bill could could have done it. So tat was closely came in and I presented him in front of
mrs smith and dawn, and I quote similar dare to tell me here and say: I know what you know what you know. I should voice an end. I did it did that and heat did the same. We see good good versus the bag, good large, female and done this, but the battle bill could have him we go trial. The evidence was just overwhelming, I gotta, tell it or is a howling got how got really good legally that far right part acquisition? I just think: how are you you ve got? Archie did you have to testify against bell? Yes, I did and the prosecutor, Here, gonna stand. I talked about the interviews. There wasn't much, he could get me a year on there and afterwards we're the only talk to you,
good you if you're gonna stand all other bs stuff, but yeah he's he was trying to say from the death penalty, and I knew- and I told the prosecutor, the solicitor I said dolly. thank you to try here. Isn't it sadly defence? So so What do you see sighing? They want to see this guy flipping out in the courtroom in front jurors, and everyone should initially, since that is only chance me we got is boosted is his car. and the next exactly what he did and then he would take stand and that any did the same ranting array, yeah, I'm gone all that well, they took the it took the jurors and it was like forty five minutes. Forty eight new suit to conviction on this case and as well, it was another trial endeavour, helmet consent, thing
you know over there, and I would ask that the death penalty, the things surprise me easy. He could have taken a lethal injection or the electric chair ate up the electric chair, which you such a our- and I think I think in his mind, have a ninety nine sixty one he was executed is that He just wants to showing even a how toffee is a tough guy, yet I would add that, on from the prison guards, in these means child killer. You coward neri thing, so he could have taken it. The lethal injection we repeat the year, he pixie electric charges, pretty pretty brutal, I always wondered about that. That was kind of a last. Ditch effort to you know prove that he's insane almost ride like
the rice, normal person would pick lethal injection ecstasy, the electric chair, not due to circle back too far, but why did you think that wayne Williams would get sick in court or or pretend to be sought? I guess what I was his albino- see a prosecutor and that issue to fancy turning Jim kitchens was the other professor turn you get to meet meet with him and There was shocked to find out that I was in the forefront the whole time. Preservative ranch a psychologist, whereas on the testify, the whims didn't do it was responsible shock. anyway, so they put williams on stan, and what they want to show the end up to take sand and across Emanation help albino nicknames jaws that look at this guy look at it
it looks like the pills. Very no boy- look, look his hands these hands up a killer or serial killer. Look at these these hands you and so on. Nor is it a by this at the jurors I said his only ploy here is that it is at once we cross examined him he's gonna have to climate. The other is the sector. Some sickness he's gonna, be a sympathy ploy and so could you jack mounted the prosecutor and prosecute gordon miller? Was there and could they shot like the one? We can today that this second in court any dead, and I told you a jack ass, a jack as we get waiting. We get to snap your choice, you I said the professor turning round the sands. You touch his hands,
I mean you touch us ass scenery, low voice. What was a lightweight was like way. We right. Do you wrap your things around terry pew throat? Did you politically the pen and he says, weak voice now, and then he realized what each has confessed. So let it get up screaming and yellow has right. That's why he does the disappointing the next day in the papers and honest deception, drawing up artists in the courtroom, hadn't pointing they say. I know you got the f b, I profile our they earn. You are trying to get me to fit the throughout europe in the past. you never should at the national. Let him take the you'll. Take the stand at all. Need to prosecute, and very welcome was one of the shooting defence attorneys was. There was three of them there and was here and five reverence, but who set unique, unique fibre, evanescent
experts for the bureau's guy asia by health deadline. I he testify placidity gb but the only found was interesting. I found the evidence on the cases that myself and that right is it from the unit we thought were related these these cases and that what was interesting s with the laugh I founded on those two taking cases not designs early in your career. You spend a lot of time interviewing serial killers behind you know prison walls and one thing that I found that this is just a of a personal question here and I've. I've studied your career throughout through your books over the years, and you know camper was always somebody that you said was one of the more interesting interviews because he was able to article eight what he did why he did and he was willing to speak about it now,
in campers case. He is one of these rare specimens. They did he, you know he kills once he gets out when he gets into his early twenties, but he was already locked up an aged fifteen for killing his grandparents. I wondered had you and barbarous or ever been in a situation where you were interviewing a juvenile a serial murder, not at all, after yet after they were convicted a mighty wrestle out of Alex alexander who kill sex workers and whose only it was seen as a college is. He was only like in his teens and as the security was getting on with a true bill of health as a great guy, kindly camper emmi well with the psychiatrist in rule of his disguise, killing doing all these killings rounding, Alexandria, the junior virginia area,
I have gone before parole boards and ethically met just yesterday with it for all the word head. Who did the book the killer across the table that is coupled with spain? and just in the one of the wise repeal the boughs at school teacher who kills erika brownie seven years. age, going house, a house, some cookies and in this particular day she was clicking money knocks on this guy mc Gowan store in the pig meat was he said you got to do the interview they hurt me. Don't I get a talk show on a radio, but I would like today were partly ass, an end and, and get this guy down here to discuss again
Get out of here, I'm pretty sure from thirty years. That's the maximum sentence, so they play you bring me to up tied to the prison avenue new jersey, which is which very intimidating, intimidate at present again with an and they put me in a room. I tell him what I want. I want the room, the fragile everything they introduce me to him, I have to go now an efficient and hunt here to try to see what this guy's strange? Has he been your real taylor. What's its thinking process like I was in within six hours myself and then and never using. I always positive. When you get up where you goin, when you get up- and he says new york- and I said the your ass I was raised in the ark- is curious in it is expensive. Is this expenses element- and he tells me-
that he's gotta next cannot even get a job. A young working working there then I kind of into the crimes. I said what happened the day her the knock on stranger and, and it was John de los angeles, samuel girl, end. They said My mother's away at work miss guys, like twenty seven at the time and my grandmother's upstairs sleeping and he is he lives in pilot house down an impatient part stenner. He says when I looked up. I knew ass with a killer and new us the cure and ends up there. He goes through all the details of of what he does not do this charter, what was so interesting. I got to talk to his parole board head who brought me in on that case. Back then, just yesterday was that I wish it was a video could watch this this display between us, because he our southern. What you're trying to do, as you try to turn
a city in the brain and bring it back, the crime in our food is of charles So whenever you every time, big david byrne was the get him back there and it takes a while and it, and so he starts staring off any, was freezing in itself with those cold he is swimming. He swayed profusely ended in his chest. Muscles peck's art are trembling. As he's telling everything that he said, all the specifics of of this crime and- and you turn around and saw the make sure the guards were worked watching were listening in city trust, be that as well as a matter of fact, they would the letter before we set out to a woman and he was indicated with any matches me in a letter saying you know, I wasn't: everybody's got John doubtlessly up behind his naval size, profiling, stuff it
it wasn't at all, as well as its interview. I realized he wasn't taken knows I didn't have any notes in front of us here know papers, but he knew my case backwards and forwards. You know everything about. I see that soup, as one of the things I learned about journey interviews, you'd, you must maintaining contact your eye contact. You deal with paranoid people, They don't trust anybody, particularly now that you are in prison. What would you do what he had the audio your they? Surely I can my how did the audiotape beginning the tape recorder we use. It wants to use it for four weeks What have you guy just natural while ago answer you met. We use it for capper, but they're all ill Listen to this! No warning that even so, I just discards you can always who's gonna, see he's sitting no sir, and so this guy
They want to go back to a gown. Tells me everything, including hey gonna, live when you get a gun to your baby. I got money. Job got my wife. What make a licence plates were at six hundred as in two thousand, is always looking back to see the guards listening. How'd you get there So my mother died surest money, my grandmother, sale, house insurance money, and so where is the mike? I put the money at a state such but the money to see. So I found a campaigner My eyes on our man. You'll, do great six hundred grand yield you'll, be fine, you get to new york wealth. The next day I go before the parole board end up and I says, the telling us what happened, and how does it if you want to be shocked waiting time, a psychologist, psychiatrist, court appointed peoples
the problem lies in an army is done in every state, have no criminal background in investigating packard and their shocked, unable to get this answers, freedom is a powerful measure. Wind up is not it when I killed a seven year old on that a day board a seventeen year old lady couldn't on that door and she would have died, he was gonna kill. somebody I give different reasons. What was going on in his life at that time he's no pedophile. These occur in you. Let him out of prison and what's gonna happen is that have not to him? He was never happen. what to begin with the and so you didn't do anything to change anything at all. You did but the physical body ice reappeared. Thirty years Would you didn't change what's up in his brain? I didn't you, change, any that the fantasy
because when you tell me about the crime, he was right down to this. Nitty, gritty specifics of the crime and no remorse it on not not not a shred of remorse came from the sky. so he'll get I've, got to new york and things, go well, don't believe it. You think. That's another theory that this burn out with these guys. There's. No, perhaps because this is a crimes of anger and crimes of power, and so that the here? That's what you have to look for two. If you lisa sky, so yonder, given him a hit, you give him a top of that. It gave a thirty year hit because the appeals appeals appeals they just I died just last year. He died. Thank goodness. We got rid of ridding when a killer calls a hunting story of murder, criminal profiling and justice in a small town, mister Douglas. I love the new book. I know the listeners are gonna love. It is well anything else, any final words about this book. This project. Before we wrap up. now. I think it is good for the people interested
profiling, and how the specific service prepare and things can do and can do I do with all the books and then the next book whenever we select to do without one but so finally that and will good reviews. I think us he listens. One joy I released, next. You haven't neon here too. Really grown over the years. What is it you have a tremendous sir following will? Thank you so much. stopping dying, seeing us again, and I hope that you will combine see us again on the next project. I will thank you, please enlighten wonderful. Thank you miss douglas? Did you miss me? Of course you did because I miss you, MR mask for everything.
who crime check out through crime. Gorazde common doesn't get much better than the oji go. Talk him with the colonel until next week be good kind. Then don't.
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Transcript generated on 2022-07-10.