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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski good evening,

open stepdaughter are in shock, and so is the medical examiner when he performs the autopsy site from being dead. Frank is in perfect health demanding to know the cause of her husband's death, Angie Rodriguez, badgers, the police, insisting that Frank was murdered. The cops attributed her assertions too overwhelming grief, but soon they too believe that Frank, didn't die of natural causes, When the police and list their number one suspect to help in the investigation, things spiral out of control and total police are dealing with a daring plot to murder, Angie's best friend and allegations of another homicide so evil, Reverse it even seasoned LA county detectives are shocked beyond belief. The book they were featuring this evening is a taste for murder, with my special guests, journalists and authors. Burrel bear and Frank C Girardeau welcome to the program gentleman and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Well, if, if reading of the

it could be on the number one true crime program out of Canada. Yes, thank you at the beginning is a. It is son of canadian parents, I'm happy to be on the show with the with you and borough. Well, I just wanted, play my canadian background here. If I can, because We are in all things more interesting in terms of true crime, and this incredible story set in California a little of all the stories that you, gentlemen, could choose. Why did you choose this story? Frank? Has the answer that one well it It really stemmed from an investigation I did as a reporter. We looked at unsolved homicides in LOS Angeles County and first we had to look at all the homicides that occurred.

It was two hundred I'm sorry. Eleven thousand two hundred and forty two homicides in an eleven year period from two thousand to two thousand at and you know they they waited. People were Killed ran the a month. Peoples are killed. You know there as I shootings and stabbings and eating, Using strangulations an suffocations and you go through this whole list of thing. But only one of those eleven thousand two hundred and forty two was poison. That's that was our victim and we we Look at this and said: oh, my god. This is really unique. What how you end up not only being murdered by poison, but having that case come to the attention of homicide, detectives in the LOS Angeles County coroner and that's where we started, you know what I've found it projects surprising about that. Is it a one time poison the well the number one weapon of choice in homicide?

especially after life. Insurance was invented when life insurance was invented, and there was not yet a test for arsenic people were having policies get out on them by their moms or dads, are brothers and sisters and then miraculously dropping dead and poison was the number one mode of killing people. Press in England for quite a while, but it's kind of you know went out of style like naming your kid britney, or something or or it's it's still in style and and uh. If there's just so many other uh deaths occurring that they they don't take the time to actually figure out. You know how someone died when it doesn't appear to be overly so dishes. Well, yeah, you're, certainly right about that. Because of anti hadn't kept badgering the cops too. I think someone killed them. Eighteen months, all would have been over with yeah. I think that's true. I would have been cashing a check

Did she sit around and I went the a okay gentlemen: let's go, let's go back for those people, but I have no idea what the story is art on your little brief synopsis that I read so, let's go back to Angie. Angelina and where she grew up in in rock away, and so let's talk about her upbringing in queens and her grand father, and so let's go right back to see if we can find out how on earth some of this happened and let's talk of for early childhood in Queens girl, you you want to go first frankly, you want me to go. Go ahead. Bro, ok have a lot of people assume because of the name that that she is hispanic mexican American, something actually she's, not she italian American Catholic, her forefathers for mother's several of them came over

from ITALY, the eighteen hundreds part of the family settled New York Jump, it settled still didn't, know Puerto Rico, and that's where that's where, where she was her father was not around much. If he grow taxi drove a truck, drove people crazy and use, he was drinking getting in trouble and wasn't around much. This was a of as it is now of of not a very pleasant area. They build these projects that people moved into, and there was a great deal of it is because the people living in these projects are moving into them.

It was that I mean if, if they in the book, we as a Michael quotes from from that era. Talking about all these people bring laziness and sloth with them. It was part of their life. That's the reason the project is so bad is built into their dna to be worthless. You know the kind of up lifting it up and it was in this. The environment did. She grew up with a very hard working mother and and we're actually, you would think, a support group of aunts, uncles, grandparents and other grandkids. Unfortunately, the support wasn't very supportive. There was a safety net of fan, Friends in that had some rather large holes in it, one of the biggest save all in the family was, of course, the grandfather now from a writing standpoint. Frank, and I had a discussion about this and then because you're, a journalist also then bring you in we had

discussion about the wording of Grandpa's interaction with the children. Frank originally wanted to soften it up a bit. What I call softly it up by stating that Angie was the victim of sexual abuse by the grand father or inappropriate sexual behavior, uh, I wanted it stronger than that edited here's. Why the when you're writing a newspaper stories you would use something such as that because that's factual I think it was over what you're doing with the story when you're trying to story you want to set people up and catch them unaware and get them this really connected. So I think one of the draft is it

we were just talking about her home life. You know nothing out of the ordinary or nothing negative. It was in Grandpa love the grandchildren, especially when he was masturbating on them now, right away. This is going to catch you off guard. This is also might shock you But that's the point- and I know Dan you're familiar with this or they deliver your great booklet as one of the most shocking figures have a coverage, yeah and so well, we we kind of underwear. We compromise the middle on that, but that's part of stylistically, where I think of Frank, and I make a good combination This is a so many years in the newspaper business and I've read you know years and broadcaster was of a more so in in the in the the book. Writing. So I think he tempers me and I push him. So it's a good combination but grandpa,

had did all the kids and his frank tell you you. The sister Angie sister made a comment that there frank and I were kind of amazed at for awhile, and that was grandpa. Stop doing this with the rest of us about the time, you should stop doing that sort of thing. Well, I don't know where it's written the Grandpa Handbook, what you know well, what if you start doing a little of what it when you stop an instructors is being a perpetual. Your statement, and yet our research showed the window in is incest in the family, were also very that the average length of time that it goes is three years except in those rare cases where

doesn't stuff after three years and just keeps going, and he even wanted up moving in with grandpa and was pregnant in Highschool twice by her grand Father yeah. Now in continuing in that vein you talk about how it was. Not only did she like the prizes that were in the rewards that her grand father gave her and and at some point she turned the tables in terms of manipulation, I guess 'cause she got older. You say that her sexual relationship with their grand father was longer than most people's marriages. So the colours also about the dynamic in the family. Was it a secret. She told she told some people, she told three people in total, so you also talk about that as well. Tell us who she told what was their reaction and what was the general knowledge of this

rape or abuse in this is up from my research, the going rate going at hey thanks. Well, you know it was interesting you know. First, she she told her grandmother and uh, Well, I mean within a matter of days, grandma was dead and then be you know, told and uncle same thing happened. The uncle died. So finally, you know she's thinking well, who can tell it. This is going on. She tells her cousin and they seven thousand tells drop to drop her pants. He wants to get his peace and that's the sort of family that this is a occuring in uh early on the Angie sister begged their mother, not to leave them with the grand Father and uh the mom said. No, he had bingo night, and that was the way it was going to be, and you know

I don't know how this that kind of stuff can go on the way that it did, and people not know about it. I think. Well, you then was it got to the fact that would later which, yes, he moves in with Grandpa on is by you know, yeah and and again I mean she get pregnant twice from from there. That is well have been doing it. On the Thanksgiving dinner people, I mean it was no secret. By that point, yeah I mean it's, you know it's it's just it's completely, not natural. And if you know how and dealt with it right, he, how did? How does she deal with the pearl in two ways, which is almost stereo typical of our people? Have the misunderstanding: standings about this, that is, she became, accepts the profit

conceptually it pleasing their grand father and simultaneously very depressed over the situation. She tried to kill herself, I believe, when she was twelve years old by taking an overdose of over the counter of medications. She also created this alternate personality. Toria which gets mentioned in the book Victoria. That acid was the aspect of the aspect of her personal. It was more than that happy to Phil Angie Shoes, brown panties when their grandpa was around and and she would this associated with Victoria handle everything, and this kind of sets up a a pattern. It's important to realize that were very sympathetic with victims of this type of behavior until they reach puberty or adolescents once they start showing their secondary sexual characteristic

we're, not sympathetic? The other problem is that, no matter how you slice it matter, who does it, there are physical sensations that are pleasurable sex feels good. But grandpa. So you have this real this. The traumatic situation, which has a long lasting effect, is that It may be immoral. It may be unwanted, it is whatever, but it felt good and it's. Specialist such an early age. Here's something to consider, I don't know if you have kids or not, but I do want bring does anybody who has children, though just snuggle up with them on the couch you pet him, you kiss him, you hug him, there's nothing sexual about it. It's just an expression of love and affection. Well, when that same love and affection, you get from everybody

compass sexualized by grandpa our by anybody else. The kids can't tell the difference so that everything get a good in the initial of affection can, in the kids, mind, be sexualized. This becomes a problem when they say liberated child from home. With this, but incest in the kids a little and the kids with the foster family and the foster mom, hugs, the kid kisses, the kid and the kid starts reaching for her private parts. So, what's going on here because they associate any form of you know what would be just normal affection from anybody else in a normal family as being foreplay,

so is really problematic and we were talking. I really lasting damage to kids and their own self image, because if it was once it's revealed and people feel sorry for the more you poor thing, you poor thing. They feel guilty about the fact that they enjoyed it physically. That not only did what they do was wrong, but how they thought about it emotionally or physically was wrong. So a dub. The guilt, so it's a real rough situation right now, but how you look at it know in Red Vein we're doing an interview with the detective who investigated the night, stalker slayings in here in LOS Angelus. And date during the course of his investigation. He Interview to surviving victim had been anally raped by the serial killer, and you this victim was ashamed, that yeah. There was pleasure in that rape and told the detective that

so you know what you're saying Bro isn't too far off the the they are yeah. I read it difficult for people to hear yeah. It is difficult for people to hear- and this was the is that I don't have the the reference in front of me, but I consulted several books by sociologist of mixologist researchers on this exact topic that are written for professionals. You don't have the general public, but you know who all the research, the interviews problems that people face, and this was one of the number one problematic areas is it we don't want to hear that you know an yet that's something that has to be dealt with for the sake of the sanity of the victim. Now, let's, let's fast forward to age, nine, teen is she's, like you say, she's had these suicide attempts and in wavers between,

promiscuity and then depression, so it she seems to be of two different characters. Obviously, now tell us what the repercussions of this trail of her grandparents are grandfather and of the family it it's itself. What was the repercussions and What does she do as a result and we'll talk about Hector, Gonzalez and she's nineteen and tell us what she looks like at this age? Is she attractive? Is she? What is she look yeah, you drink. Well, you know I mean, as you'll, see in the book anybody new Angie when she was about eighteen or nineteen saw her is being the neighborhood hottie and that you know they all wanted to all the guys wanted be with their data. They knew that she was fun and you know it it she had was very attractive to to these folks, and but you know internally, you know she was.

She was still struggling with. You know what had been going on with her the fact that she had been raped the fact that she had these abortions Ann. She ended up at this young age, getting married. Where to you know, I guess the neighborhood. Tough kid yeah yeah Hector Gonzlez, and you know it didn't last long. Nothing really was permanent and Angie's life. It's a path, turn that you'll see throughout an you know with within months the marriage was over and not seen and after that she was off to Florida to join the air force with a smart move on her part, and I think you know and the most ideal situations they gave her really on entire new worldview hold dual level

of of life an opportunity opened up to her. It was really really a fantastic experience, for I'm sure, plus she met of very handsome wonderful guy who wants to marry her horse he's already doctor up, but he wants the merrier and she does marry him and from shall we say, societal expectations. She's hit the jack pot. She's married this guy, who is kind he's loving his good looking is a good provider, a wonderful father. They have two kids, you know Bang Bang and everything would seem to be dandy except there's a whole aspect of Angie that dandy isn't what gets her. You know what gets who is? You know the no tell motel room with a rusty spring

in some guys should hardly knows better like a screen door so mean every time are wonderful. Husband leaves town on business she's off with somebody else. You know she made in one part of her mind, saying I want a wonderful kind, loving husbands who make love to Maine other part is going. No, you don't you want to like Grandpa added and that becomes a reoccuring problem in her life. That I mean that's the thing that we saw throughout throughout the book you know throughout the research is that and especially in this case, where she married this really great guys Pearl says that you know the real great guy didn't do it for, in spite of the fact that, if you know you looked at her life, you say: oh, my god, you hit the Jack pot

yeah. I do that. I older my heart really goes out to her ex husband because I think is just what a horrible thing that happened to him to marry this beautiful woman and have two great kids and him not knowing what's lurking underneath know what happens with the marriage to Tom for this great guy with this idyllic life, when she's in the military and succeeding and they have the two children. So what happens in this relationship. So the military ultimately ends up bringing them to California and what many considered to be the most beautiful part of California Central Coast. You know: there's wineries there that have some of the finest grapes in the best red and you can imagine beautiful scenery great place to raise a family. It's not LOS Angeles is not San Francisco and it's not

You know the meth ravaged California, inland, it's just a real nice place. An being in the military brought them there, they had a nice pad, they were doing. Okay, ok and one day with they've got two kids Angie's decide. You know, take the kids out for a walk. She comes back, puts on this sleep in an hour later. The youngest of the two is dead. Ah and the death of this child as it does in many marriages, had a profound effect on the couple in many many ways and reverberated still I think through their lives. Even today, the little girl apparently suffocated in a crib and caused a great deal of grief, fuller head, but was out of town at the time of the death p

medics came they're unable to you know, obviously, to revive this little girl and what happened was. Is he was insistent that the the baby died is because she had choked on a pacifier Ann and it was a defective passafire that Gerber had recalled. Angie and Tom brought a lawsuit against the Gerber they life insurance policy on the baby and ultimately after several years of back and forth, they settled with Gerber. For seven, thousand dollars. Angie got the lion's share of that cashed in the life insurance policy that was under one hundred thousand dollars, and you got the lion share of that. But the couple was divorced. Come had moved farther s into England, so

california- and he stayed on the coast and found profligate ways to spend that that and not only was she spent in it, but she was hanging out with some pretty bad boys. Including one that you know was known massive abuser in the small town. And known as you know, gang member type who yeah she ultimately ended up, getting a restraining order against and that you know that relationship and lifestyle? Even with all that dough was a far cry within a few months. From being you know the married mother of two living in idyllic, Since, on that, you know beautiful, California go and so weird thing to see happen, you can imagine how most affected her family and friends is dead because because it just just

eight, you go from the projects to Florida to the best part of California and all of a sudden you know essentially you're back in section eight. Smoking math with a crack head gang member right strange. She still had a good deal of money because he did both she did plow through there was some things were excessive, which had a beautiful home and she had a gorgeous Khloe's gorgeous car and people looked at, or is that while this woman's really got it well, she got it from the settlement. You know I'm from from Gerber and as Frank mentioned. Well, what is this? That dichotomy is that half notices that back and forth you know ended. This is not uncommon. We we we see, there's an even but people have been human trafficking victims. There is a class that was done here in LA for law, enforcement and counselors on the phenomenon? Is it's not really like star syndrome,

but rather how you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen the streets, there's an aspect to that lifestyle. That is attractive. Even in smaller doses. You know you can rescue someone from situation say here you couldn't live with these nice people, miss nice houses, nice neighborhood and the person will run away and go back to looking around the corner when they don't have to know was making them, but you know it, it becomes part of their whatever fill fill some need and they say get be mad at a movie is a go running back because that's typical, you know, there's there's, there's still look into the the lifestyles of you know, and it's interesting too, though, that attitudes are changing, Tord that I think for pie, size through the reasons we're talking about. You know if you look

at law enforcement memos on this stuff. Today they don't call people, prostitutes and John Barnes, and you know, pimps. They call the end of these people to be victims of sexual trafficking and people who are you know, and on the flip side of the criminal side of it. You know people who are yeah Bing or sexual traffickers. It sounds like you know: drug trafficking, it's it's far less! You know the words are far less innocuous. Now there a lot more

Yeah, it is also in another aspect of that is one of the reasons for the this is gonna under some people. When I say this, but it's true one of the reasons for the the these human trafficking laws is: where do we get applied? They don't get applied to real human traffickers because that's like trying to go after you know the the cartels which is both of human driving is part of the same cartels and do the guns into the history of the massive amount of drugs. They go after some poor schmuck who whose job it is is because the roof down on the corner and they should get a him for you know brand regularly held. Is they they try to get him with being you know, like you. Yes, Angela Travel, sexual trafficking, that's yeah! That's what they do. I mean I mean it's. The thing is: is that it that the that's it exactly it? But it's it's become. You know, says the person, the prostitute used to be seen that it

someone of a criminal, you know engaged in criminal behavior, and you know I mean I used to go on lots of roundups where they would bust these women and take him in the jail, and now they you know it's been more treated as victims which you know I want to like swing back around to Angie, and you know what we're seeing in the eight year, even at this time is that is victimized. You notice the behavior of someone who's been victimized when you say burl well, yeah I mean she's, been ideas rather use the term dramatize rather victimized alike, being victims and I'll. Tell you this just pisses off of agony that expression on blog talk, radio is that it also makes an assumption for women who work in the sex trade industry who are not victims of human trafficking who make a conscious decision. This is what I want to do for x, number of years to make money, and it's this. They don't do this so much with men but

is still portrayal of women are somehow. Medically unable to make decisions about their own lives it if they decide to do something I don't approve of, they must have been coerced and they, but research done on this to see. If that's what the percentage is, of women working in those trades who were chorus? Those who been victims of molestation as children and that's why they're doing it in turns out? No, that's a very one person and the ones who did it because they made a decision to, like, I think I'll, be a car dealer in Vegas. Really don't like to say that what I can make my own decisions does it them? The male prostitutes don't get that so. Name right, really good. Distinction- and you could even then at that point you could say You know how many of these customers are being exploited, right, yeah, all of them yeah, but who's being exploited, the Strip Club,

is not the stripper yeah. I have all this and you and I are on the same page. I believe that, but hey let's anyway, let's knows in the end she slipped which yeah sorry. I can't let's switch gears and and introduce Jose Francisco Rodriguez and talk about before he found religion and quit smoking and quit drinking and found pentecostal religion then delicacy of speaking in tongues. So tell us a little bit about was a French is go Cisco Rodriguez, please so so in our book, a taste for murder, Which is available on Amazon today we we open up with with Jose's death, and you know Jose Francisco Rodriguez is known to everybody as Frank and he's and he's kind of the all american kid. You know I grew up in a family

loving family. With this you loving siblings. He was kind of the leader. He played football in high school, Had you know an idea of what would be his few? sure as an adult any you know, and he worked toward that. He joy the Navy got married and a fairly successful marriage for at least a dozen years, there were no children and ultimately Frank and his first wife got divorced and that set Frank kind of reeling kind of it made him lost in a way, and he You know sat avenues of medication through drinking and smoking and you know self destructive things, but ultimately his path took him

do this same part of central California, where change in time just just near Santa Barbara, and he found that he You know some some yes in life, as a counselor to kids and became a counselor at a one of these youth boot camp. This one was run by the LOS Angeles School District for boys, mostly and uh motivated. Was it bring these kids up there, specially the at risk? Kids, they run him through the paces of the military hyper training, and hopefully you instill the values of respect and politeness in a few of them and keep them from you know become drug dealers and traffickers and pimps and all the other sorts of bad things that might be and Frank Fit right in and the kids loved him, and so so here's this guy, who you know after

dozen years of marriage and maybe a half dozen years of trying to figure out what he was going to do it themselves. At forty he's figured out that he loves working with children and in this boot camp, not only is he making friends. Not only is he exhibiting the skills of a good leader to these kids, but he's also going to meet. Because her military experience brought her there too. So the the two met uh about the time that Frank became really religious. He became one of pentecostal types and you know the pentecostal religion, runs pretty pretty deep in southern California and there's a lot of places where you can get some of that old time. Religion Frank's found it. You know, you that into his personality Angie in the way grifters do, which was a

asked her personality to the lifestyle of the man that she wanted to get with. So you know weeks before she was a frank there was a guy in the boot camp at and you want the date who's in the country, music in cowboy clothes. So you know They see, show up wearing cowboy boots and a cowboy hat when it didn't work out and she said her eyes on Frank next thing you know she's wearing a crucifix around her neck and carrying the Holy Bible around Ann and Frank, didn't you didn't see that disingenuous listen her. He just saw that she was a woman who love Jesus like he did. And had a young child and decided that you know. Maybe this would the woman at English settle down but and find the life that he wanted to live now, people did warn him? There were people at work said Joe, hey,

thank you, know slow down a little bit. You know I mean he was just so smitten. He was ready, you know, put a ring on it right then, and there were people there who knew that she'd had the for this. You know cowboy guy and had been looking like, Annie Oakley the week before and now she's uh looking like what's the name Rexella Van Impe, so it's a whole different situation, but he was, he was definitely madly in love with her to be saw the email so he sends her proclaiming his love that he just can't wait to spend the rest of his life with her, which of course he did a very short life. Then you see did he. He was blinded by love.

Yeah. I think that's the thing that really stands out is he just. He absolutely thought that he found that you know his love match in ensuring that part of her ruse is also to be keeping with this ridge religiosity. She they, they agreed to stay celibate till they were married yeah. She wasn't too crazy about that. He would complain to our friends at you know. No, she wasn't getting any from Frank, which is getting plenty from other people right now. The other voted. For instance, the vow of celibacy didn't prevent Angie from finding ways to relieve the sexual tension in our lives. Yeah

and in the lives of others. Yeah now, there's a Frank's got a history of military training and to say that he's fairly healthy is an understatement. So he's he's a health fanatic according to his friends and family, so tell us exactly how healthy Frank is. Because this is very important to this case. Obviously. Well, we want to take this one frank capable I let you go. Ok, well, the way he was known for being really taken great care of itself. It just drink it in the smoke he worked out. It was very active, so I mean if you when they did the autopsy. This was the big question. They looked at every organ in his body and this guy was in fantastic shape. One hundred percent perfect health, except for the fact he was dead. There was no physical. There is no fee

your of anything is is hard as long as livers kidneys. Everything was just fine brain aneurysms. There was, I mean the guy was perfect better than perfect of. If you did the majority of a man, his age scale, this, given this guy's, the you know the the top one percent, he was a perfect physical condition that I'm, let me was it. What in researching this. That was the most shocking thing to the police and the corner was that you they looked All those things that girls talking about in things that you wouldn't of like lungs in veins. You know, looking for anything, you know the size of uh, you know hardening of the arteries or you know plaque in the lungs or any of that stuff. Nothing is nothing like that and it's it's weird.

Yeah, but they were very, very stunned. I mean they keep re testing and retesting. You know I mean they buried the body, but there was nothing left in the body was just pretty much the shell. They taken everything out to study it. To try to figure out. How can this guy, who a version healthy, be dead? Let's go back to the day in question and in fact, let's go back to how things progressed in their in their marriage in their in their family life. That and then we can lead up to the situation, The incidents that happened just previous to this, her nine one one call or her daughter was there so tell us about a little bit about their life together and either her what was happening in their marriage. That things went so sour. What was the indication from friends and family about how this marriage was proceeding

Well so right, you know right after they meet and it's not too long before Frank proposes, and not too long after that they get married. But the marriage comes as some relations. They got a lead, central, California and moved down to Montebello. It's a city, that's just east, of LOS Angeles, have a greedy little suburb yeah because Frank has taken a job as the a school teacher and it, and so he gets this job. He promises angelini he's going to take care of her and her young daughter and move down well they're living in the suburbs and she hates it. She can't stand it and this vows celibacy, as now and now she's telling him that she's got away and meantime every weekend,

Friday afternoon. She takes that daughter from school back up to Santa Barbara. So she can hang out with their friends and not really hanging out with her friends she's. You know dating her best friend's nephew sleeping with him on a fairly regular basis and discussing with her best friend and her best friends family, Ways in which she might kill Frank now she plays it off as being a but yeah, but the problem was that she keeps pro crane. This is a joke, but she does it so often that the joke starts to lose his humor amongst Afr family they going alright. Already with this, you know killing frank business. You know they didn't take her seriously, but it wasn't funny anymore yeah. That's that's exactly right and in the course of that, though, they did tell her a cup

things, one in one instance that the mother of her friend. Told Angie that you could kill. Somebody by feeding them a tea laced with oleander, now you've ever been in California, you've seen oleander, it grows on the side of the freeway and it has beautiful white and pink flowers, and it's a really great landscaping plant. It's also super poisonous, in fact deadly poison. This very thing is so deadly that you can't even burn it, because the fumes, the smoke from burning oleander will yeah and when we we we get into some of that in our book about in a different historical instances of oleander poisoning. Including one that occurred in LOS Angeles just a few months before Frank, was found dead so anyway, so they talk a little bit about

creating a with oleander and then later on, Angie's boyfriend up there talks with with and her friend about how you could kill somebody with any freeze and in the service. They even discuss whether or not they going to poison the neighbor's dog like getting hot dogs. Many free turns out that propylene glycol r s s going live call, which is what makes a band freeze is yes, we testing an amazingly, looks a lot like gatorade. So the discussion, as to what gosh, what if you mix this with some gatorade? Maybe that would work, and you know they. They kind of laughed it off. They do take note that this is kind of strange and Angie's asking about this stuff Ann one weekend. Maybe I don't I don't know. I want to say it's a week before Frank is ultimately dead

Angie's up in a Santa Barbara Franks at home, and he smells that get. That smell that unmistakable smell of leaking gas in the house, and he goes and looks at the other end of it turned off, can't figure it out. He calls the gas company they come over. And that rotten egg smell is coming from the water heater, which has been losing to the point where it's spewing out. You know, a high volume of methane gas and more captain the smelly stuff, into the house to the point where you know, if Frank had been a smoker or if he lit the stove or A candle he would have blown himself up and wiped out the house. The one thing that Edison guy this southern California gas guy knows was that it was obvious that

gas line had been intentionally disabled to allow the gas to leak into the house even wrote down in his report, Frank didn't really take much notice of it yeah I oh, my god that was really fascinating. It here, guy saying someone loosened this. This is not an accident. There is deadly gas. If we help or guile over you and yet he let's it slide yeah yeah. I thought that was interesting too, and it's too bad. You know nobody can ever go back and ask him know what happened there. But it says right in the report. You know that it was deliberately lucent, so anyway. I am amazed rally wrestling with G. If Nancy did that she wants to kill me no end, you would want to kill me she's. My soulmate sent by the Lord now right go ahead,

so he probably in that's, probably exactly you know along the lines of what he did. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't go to church on Sunday and pray over the fact that his life had been saved, because he was that you know he was that deeply religious and into the you know the the pentecostal faith. So you know what to expect what exactly happens with the and I again this is fascinating- that Eddie freezes, apparently the color of its color gatorade. So and it's happens to be he's a big sports, Buff and likes Gatorade, and she and her daughter pick up some a lot of gatorade that they. Of course, her daughter would like some of that, but there's no. No. This is all for Frank, so tell us about the day in question and the gatorade just to demonstrate how fast! Well, it's like a we.

Really yeah go ahead, bro First, you she try the oleander business. You know She'd, give him only entity. She's, you know, have some is Vertigo, lay under incense whatever what she did. She tried to and with the oleander and that made him sick it'll made him physically ill, and so she did take him to the hospital and the doctor looks him over and says most appear to be food poisoning and he's really low on electrolytes. All all this, but I'll tell you what, if you know, take care of him getting plenty of bed, rest and lots of Gatorade, to build up his electrolytes. I you should be fine in a couple days, so that's blessings just exactly what she needed to hear because of the doctor said you don't give me jug band music season you can feel just fine. You know given the Gatorade so

she has it says you know, bought him. Lots of Gatorade told her daughter. All this is all for Frank and Brazil to do. Even the you know have the daughter, server two modifications yeah this, this also's place in the week after the gas, sleek incident, and it actually begins with Frank, taking a trip back to the central coast to work for a day at the Angels Gate Camp where he, which we met Angie and when he returns come from the cam he tells you If he's not feeling well, of course, this is when, It begins administering this, this oleander tea and then subject only the gatorade. So that's on a on Wednesday and Thursday. They go to the hospital.

Friday. Night Frank is in horrific pain and completely. At you know, sick and by You know the time date lines over at one thousand one hundred o'clock at Franks, debt now Angie and Colin or notice this occurrence until much later early act on Saturday Morning and when the police arrive you it just you know: there's not much to look at there's a dead guy laying on the floor and a little vomit around his mouth, and you really can't you know, I'm. Seeing is tell you a lot in this. In this case it wasn't a lot to be told at least on first glance, and I think that

You know that gave Angie some some running room yeah. There was no put drama to him. There was the end bit hidden there edit anything. These is laying on the floor and she said your wife fell asleep watching tv in the other room. I came in to check on him and he's laying on the floor. And then you know the police and the ambulance guys they were stable, struck by her demeanor? They uh, you know they they were dealing with the woman who had lost her husband and many of these guys and girls had seen lots of women who lost their husbands, and she didn't seem to have the same amount of grief she wasn't experiencing grief in the same way that they had seen it so many other times. In fact, in some ways they found her to be now

even grieving but uh giving answers that you would expect to hear from someone who is. You know, one of that you know the word ambulance driver or somebody who important point, because, as we, told in our interviews that you know it is most common. For someone to be almost in a state of shock over losing a loved one, where it's hard for them to answer questions or even concentrate on hearing the questions, but Angie was you know supposed grieving, but the minute to ask her a question bam. She was like suddenly totally together could answer the question you know with what are the difficulty whatsoever there struck them is unusual, but then again people process grief in different ways, but it did strike some strange that is supposedly overcome with grief. She was yet neural, trouble understanding the questions and responding to them in complete sentences,

that sort of thing, and this would come into play, later on this reaction. Her reaction to death would come into play when pull peace and detectives began. Looking at you know the big picture of her life and the death of her daughter and the similarity in terms of her reaction was quite remarkable.

And yet notice of I did say something in her defense here, hypothetically, and that is people who have been dramatized or whoever had head injury is is usually will often have a flat affects or will disassociate in times of crisis were looks like they're, not a mostly involved when they're actually a mostly over com, and so instead of like crying and sobbing, they become all stoic. So that's something that someone could bring up in her defense that well based on any other number of things from her past. Maybe even the death of her job, of the way she protectors of a Motional Lee from being warmly devastated with me to disassociate one that made. You know that could be very well. Why was overlooked yeah now? Can you explain to the audience because I think this is and

and for Angelina Angie's motivation right after this, the corner comes in and says this is due to natural causes, despite natural causes. What's the procedure with a pay out from the insurance company and You do talk about a woman named Brenda, Schaeffer annoyed. I gotten me, stop it real, quick as I hate to do this to you Dan, but the corner actually didn't say anything: the corner who could have said that what causes, but there was actually deferred, may finding as to the cause of death and in because of that Angie who had bought a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars insurance policy on Frank, two weeks before the gas incident and three weeks before his death couldn't cash the

in cash, the life insurance policy that life insurance agent and the company that you know manage the premiums said no way. You need to have a death certificate that says exactly why he died, and the reason for that is is that life insurance policies won't pay on suicide. And you know clearly, when you have somebody who's in perfect health and suddenly dies suicide, is a possibility and there now Going to pay the pre the the benefit to this five survivor is a murderous and without knowing the cause of death either of those are possibilities and life. Insurance companies are notoriously stingy so now you also you can also, even if the corner could never determine cause of death. After eighteen months the insurance company will

would have paid out anyway, because while all the time they're not paying that much, He is garnering interest, costing them more money. So if, after eighteen months, if the corner still can't figure out why the person died, they just go ahead and pay it out. So what is the? What does essential is to lead the month? She has bills. She needed cash is I wanna get out of that House Ann, she wasn't gonna? Do it unless you got that pay off when she was going to get the They often less, she had the cause of death and she wasn't get the cause of death unless the corner knew what the heck they were. Looking for. So she so she gave her she put herself in a catch twenty two or maybe a twenty three, because there's so many different circumstance. Twenty four and slash two, maybe.

Yes, because you know what is going well, she tries to be helpful and tell us how she she also incorporates the angel gate into her theories and that she tells police about her ideas, You want take that Frankie want me to roll them. You take that lumber. Oh ok! Well, when she first calls the police department and says I think my husband was murdered. They don't take her seriously. They chalk that up to very typical of someone who is destroyed, that their beloved husband is died and they you know it's like a denial mechanism. Will someone must have killed him? You know he couldn't, just God, wouldn't take him from me. You know some evil person did this, but she nags the cops over this so much that they decide who we better look into this Well Bonnabel Police Department

It wasn't in a position. Staff wiser resource wise. They handle this themselves, so they call in you know, will be the LA sheriff's department that correct does that the proper law enforcement. And that is K shares part right, yeah, and so they they bring a couple detectives to check this out. Well, so now it is being looked at as gee, maybe she's, right hello. He was still there yep, ok, so she

he tells them they ask us or anybody would have anything against against Frank and the answer is she tells him? Yes, there is a person at angels, Gate who Frank had caught doing inappropriate sexual things with some of the kids and he exposed his person another way they liked, and this person there was very vindictive and said that you know he would get even with Frank for making these accusations and being is that Frank had gone up to Angel Gate just before he passed away and that, according to her, is to the g that was so nice to me. They hug Maine. They gave me refreshments, they gave me you know cookies and milk or whatever, that she was sure that this person must be the one.

Who did something who poisoned him? But you know they ran that Auxology tests and none of your standard poisons came up, so they had no idea. What to look for at Angie said something really brilliant such as well. Maybe it was the flowers that grow by the side of the road. You know, whatever those things are, which of course, would be the only under. Well. They found an oleander tree in the neighbor's yard. Next to Angie, with an oleander branch hanging right over saying pick me, you know So they ran the test and thunder work traces of oleander in Frank, but not enough to kill him. So they knew there had to be something else.

So how and how did they proceed from there? Frank well there, so what they have to do, as they have to figure out a way to keep the ng believing that they're following the path that she wants them? go down and they draw her into their investigation and defer to her. In a in a way that makes it seem like you know she, is that murder. She wrote or Joe Colombo, or you know, yeah detective sort of piecing together. The You know this intricate puzzle that the buffoonish backwater cops really can't put together. Oh yeah. She would mock them to her best friends at pool mirror. She say all these: these tops or you like the Keystone cops. They don't know what they're doing. I have to help him.

Is it and she really believe she was part of their investigation. She really believes it. You know that she was. Kojak, Colombo, Columbo um in is that, of course, I mean at the same time, the murdering coach back for the murdering Colombo and she probably watched. Enough of these shows to think that she was going to out with them and they stronger along you know? They they one of the homicide detectives Joe Bob Holmes, was a fisherman. Let the fish and I mean if there was ever a great fishing analogy. It's it's the way that they real her in bit by bit. They it. We only detail this in the book and a lot of it is simply just in the dialogue in the cat and mouse of the of the dialogue. Ultimately, they you know, tell her look weird, you to arrest the guy that you believe the prime suspect and we need you to come along with us, she's boy after,

but there's nothing that makes her happier and you can see. Why obviously mean in her mind ok they're going to arrest this guy, I mean she's in the clear that means get paid on the life insurance policy, and you know this whole thing will go away. Wait the the well. How did how How did this person is a scape? No, that Frank was going to be there so that they could prepare this poison. You know that she's does is well. I I know that they they alert people right, so she had to come up with some proof. That they would somehow soul. You know so she sends a fax to the to the to the cops is supposed to be. You know from Angel's gate to I know the staff, which has the list of the kind of cleared people who will go, we're going to be there that day and some persons name is scratched out and Frank Rodriguez is

whatever his name is put in there, and but if you look at the top of a fax, it tells you where it came from right in this half to come from, like you know, the Rite aid of the CBS or whatever block from Angie's house, I mean that that just cracked, that that part of it is just when you're right, I mean you, know the reader. You know, okay, this is really not going to turn out well for her she's standing up, front door of your house waiting for the you know, job I've been in Stein, want to show up and and take her to. You know this guys house. And had a red witnessed and rest yeah, it's just like they do on Colombo, and instead, when they get there they tell you know: ok, turn around put your hands behind your back boom corrupt and uh. She So what are you doing

resting you for the murder of your husband and, of course, she breaks down into t fears and goes to you know this whole dramatic moment of how could you I didn't, kill my husband. You know I'm going to prove you wrong and you'll. Be sorry that you did this but she's defeated. I mean she's completely she's done and you know it's just it's it's the combination of that part of the story, but it's here that the investigation and book takes a huge term yeah this, like I say what, Whatever you think you got, this figured out that it can't be any worse or any more bizarre than it already. Is you ain't seen nothing yet it exactly right and so you know what happens is these are now she's in Santa Barbara and if you know

sending California, Santa Barbara is about two hundred miles north of LOS angelus- maybe not quite that far but within that range and so now, detectives got to bring her back to LA and when they do, you know they put her in the toughest county jails that they've got. It's not like. You read killer. You know county jail for women, it's actually a county jail, that's mostly for men and she's, one of twenty women in this facility under you know, What is you a high security in the LOS Angeles jail system? Ann as her case is progressing to

system, she starts finding out more and more about what the cops app and one of the things that the cops have is witnesses. Good witnesses, an the witnesses are the friends like Palmyra Gorham, who had discussed with Angie methods of poisoning, people and new. About you know her temp to kill frank by unplugging, the gas. So now any uh he's world there's only one way you can deal with the rat and that's to kill it.

But you know, how do you do that in the jail yet not easy? Now she does have a conversation with former where she does her best to convince her not to testify against her, and she tries to use the reason that well, if you testify to use the baby suggestions, you're liable to be arrested and- and Sars is a co conspirator in the murder which but Ballmer was of all over- that she knew better, and so then Angie is gets mad. You know, don't get me wrong as it is, I'm just explaining it to you, hello, it had been. I'm not afraid of. Is you know I'm going to tell the truth. That's when the Angie has to try to find a way of bumping, pull, mirror off and finding a way of doing it when she's in what is essentially Sala Terry Confinement in the bowels of the LA county, twin towers, jail Ann.

She does it in a really interesting way. She begins a friendship with a woman in the cell next are and the way they. Communicate is by talking through the the water pipes, so water pipes, rental on the wall and they amplify the sound of the voice through the cement wall, and she chickens talking to the woman in the cell next door and gauging the woman's willingness to Higher killers to take out Palmyra. And. When she thinks she has a friend in the jail it turns out. Well, maybe she doesn't really know this. Lady was not impressed the the woman who is in the cell next or was it the right thing for the non violent crime but she's out of like she probably would know people

there were no violent and dangerous, but he said he I a I may have done the stupid stuff in the rest of it goes to boost up eleven center for could, kill anybody or want to kill anybody or tried to kill anybody. You know that which is great, so she agrees. She goes to the stories as the other one is held. Actually she, what's being you know, have a friend killed? So is it all that's wonderful here where a wire and record the conversation which she does and it just gets even stranger from there is, for I will tell you so this is this. Is I'd love to this part of doing our research because you know we we in doing in writing a book we we got access to tons and tons of court files and because end primarily because you know this- is that the big case and it's a death penalty case, so the state of California in the county

LOS Angelus saved all of their records and among the records were these Volumnia, huge volumes. Traitor word, I can't say I don't know yeah that word I can spell it there's a huge number of these transcripts. When you read through these transcripts- and you read the dialogue in the discussions, it first Queen Angie and her Sally and then later on, between the cell mate and the sheriff's detective. She just get some great insight, not only in to the jail but into what is going on with Angie. So the cell mate find a way to get away from Angie and talk to the sheriff's detectives and she tells him. Oh, she was a hotel. She's looked at, And this lady is crazy, bitch in the cell max, and he wants to kill a witness in her case and there

ok, write, a tell us about it and well so the witness proceeds to describe exactly how to get to Palmyra's house exactly where to find her in the house and exactly how to kill her and she said yeah, and she told me that you could kill somebody with oleander and uh any freeze and in fact she said that's how she did her husband now in exchange for for arranging this murder Angie is offering to pay her cell. You know her cope fellow prisoner or her fellow prisoners, friends out of the life insurance policy that she still hasn't been paid on, so Sheriff's department thinks this is really interesting and they and they want to find out more so they send the cellmate back down and this time she wearing a wire and the there's a blank. The probably a five hour conversation

between the two of between Angie in this cell mate and it's all about uh. She's case in her life and she talks about how Palmyra had been her friend and now she wasn't and how she needed to have her killed and how she Wanted her killed and how you could pull it off? Why would you say if we can use the? the only enter the antifreeze. You might have to stay there with her while she dies yeah yeah, wait, give it away all the good parts off of it, given away all the good stuff yeah. I hope you folks listening to this go out and buy the book and give us money. I was not in spite of the fact that we're revealing everything here, of course, if you're on here and listening to it, there's a good reason. Listen the dancer, pants keys show because, as you can see, you get a lot of good details into these true crimes anyway, back Angie so Angie. It is expecting now that the

MIRA is gonna be often that she's going to get out and she'll have to pay. You know a finder's fee to the guys that and one day she surprised in jail with a visitor visitor is a male somehow he's able to get in. She thinks it first that he's a new lawyer. He says no, I'm not call lawyer and if you know if never seen on tv, the way that you visit people in jail, there's that glass window he's got an envelope in his pocket. And the holds out pictures of that, Myra and she's been shot in the head. An at First Angie says: oh, my god, I can't believe it. I can't believe that you did that I was just kidding, but but it doesn't take too.

Long before you can see the wheels start, spinning and Angie saying is actually now gleeful aw, oh my god, I'm going to get out! I'm going to be free, I'm going to be able to pay you I'm going to be able to move back to the central coast and get my daughter back and have my life. She was thrilled ecstatic to see that picture of Palmyra with a bullet areas. Yeah, and the thing is, do you find out that this was completely manufactured If you read a book, you find out how they did it and it is to me he just like actually and if you watch the special that investigation. Discovery is doing on them, a taste for murder that will be on Saturday, nine o'clock, Eastern Pacific you get to see the actual video tape of this instance in several other.

Places where energies being interviewed by the police, and it's really just it's a fascinating study. Indiana. Psychology and behavior in really the it gives you a great look at the inner workings of of the murder investigation that takes a lot of twists and turns, and this one wasn't done yet. Yeah, it was very powerful. Is that big more in this case? It's just so strange. There is a Thursday there's something we have to talk about it. Maybe you can hold back some of it, but what comes up at trial is her past behavior, and so we go back to that daughter that she collected the insurance claim on an the Gerber payout. So Frank tell us what happened. How did

Please police come to the truth about what Angie had done with their own child. So eight during the invest- during the early part of their investigation after her arrest police detectives, did what they always do. They served a search warrant on her house and in going through her paperwork. They came across the letter there. It was a letter from a doctor at Caltech. Address to Angies and Tom's attorney and basically it said something along the lines of hey. You know the pacifier that your daughter, choked on was at probably been manipulated in such a way that cause your daughter to choke I cannot in good conscience, testify I trial that the pacifier was defective. This bullet,

Text is read this and they knew exactly it's all this. You know doctor lingo and stuff. You know it's it's thick. And you know you do not really sure, but they knew what they were looking at. What they were looking at was another murder that day could can I Angie basic date with them when they they look through all this paperwork in our house. So here's of what they saw it saw this doctor's letter and they then they they began talking to people around Angie and they found that she and her husband Tom had been in Michigan. A couple months before the little girl died, Tom was from Michigan Tom sister looked at the baby that died in it, Alicia and said hey. You know that pacifier she has looks an awful lot like this one that gerbers recalled. Well, you know, Angie, files that away in the recesses of Angie's, mind.

And it holds on to that pacifier for several months- and it only turns up again on the very same day that the that the baby dies um. In at so California criminal trial in a death penalty case is bifurcated you have a trial for the circumstances of the crime. In this case, a capital murder, ah and when the jury finds true the fact the allegation of, capital Murder- has in fact been proved then there's a second phase in which the defendant is tried it for the penalty. Yeah the penalty can either be death or life in prison without the possibility of parole, a jury, same jury there. Here's the criminal case: here's the penalty phase with case.

The jury in the penalty phase makes the recommendation to the judge as to what should happen. Should the defendant get death penalty or should the defendant be sentenced to life and they make their determination based on two factors or while two series of factors, one series of factors would be fat here's what they call in mitigation, things that would tend to make one less likely to get the death penalty like, for example, the Angie's childhood abuse. Maybe consider that to be a factor in mitigation and, in fact, for attorneys used that childhood abuse as a way to mitigate the ultimate crime that she did. But the other thing is factors and aggravation. An factors and aggravation are oftentimes things that have never

improvement. For example, you know, murders, robberies, those sorts of things, Where you know, maybe you committed these acts, but it was never proven or brought to trial. In this case, they bring up the death of the baby and they have a mini trial um over heard. To show that in all Lee Hood Angie killed the baby to collect life insurance like she did with Frank and eh, settle this lawsuit for nearly a million dollars and what that does is it aggravates the case? It shows that this is a way. Woman who has a propensity to murder and not just murder, but murder, people who are close to her, so they bring all this up. They bring up the fact The doctor's letter any bring this Caltech doctor into court and have him testify? Remember

in you know, when the little Alicia died, he'd been hired by hey Tom and Angie's attorney and he didn't want to do it now. The prosecutors got I'm and the prosecutor Doug Sortino, now a judge in LA county. You know Ask him out all the things that can happen to a piece of rubber and a pacifier, and You know how a piece of rubber can then choke somebody to death 'cause, you know esoterically guys all, but everything there is to know about rubber and fires, so he's testifying for the prosecution. N in excruciating Molecula for detail explains how the pacifier was ripped by a Para pliers or some other device, and then the rub part of its shoved down the babies throat causing the baby to choke to death, and I now you remember that uh

we talked about Angie's reaction to the police. And the ambulance in the corner when they showed up at her house after Frank's death. And talked about how Angie's reaction was was wasn't something that they had ever Seen before or encountered when it came to a grieving widow, well, it turns out that when little Alicia died. There was very similar disassociation between the Angie and the dead baby. In fact, well, the paramedics arrive Angie was standing out in front of the house waiting for that and then directed them to the room where the baby was dead in her crib now people that the paramedic business and the fire fire business and the corner business and the business of dealing with other people and grieving mothers will tell you that

any mother grieving over her baby or a baby. That's just choked to death or is dead in the crib, isn't going to be standing out in front The house waiting for the firefighters to show up at mom's, going to be with that baby holding it. Comforting at crying over it trying to bring it back to life Angie wasn't doing any of that, and you know I mean if you consider that and you consider the how power shuffle it is to to be a mom and have your baby die, and you know what The normal circumstances of that work would be in the fact that Angie is not reacting in that way. Well, I mean we looked at what the jurors said after this case and All of them were convinced that they were dealing with a monster, a monster who would kill a baby monster? Who would kill a husband and a monster who would seek to kill her best friend to not be put to death

for doing any of the stuff that she did. I think this thing is that, as we mentioned in the afterwards, Angie is not normal in quotes and what's normal normal is what you're familiar with what you're to that I use the metaphor whatever you want to call that she's like a confused cork in a tempest tossed ocean should she

drive safely on dry land, she'd long for the familiar turmoil of the sea storm and that's kind of the way it is throughout her life. When things are normal, it's not watt resonates with her. You know I mean. Is there a moral of the story? Well, there's a moral to every story, and if we get the moral wrong, however, someone asked if there was a moral to the movie titanic and still replied yeah, never trust an old woman with expensive jewelry, but that wasn't the intended. You know more of the story: the moral of anti stories dextral abusive children, even when the abuses nonviolent and rewarded with Gibson praise with lasting emotional scars manifested later in life, and we don't do these books just to amuse ourselves over the giant paychecks. But we do these

Books, because we hope and telling these stories we could somehow save lives or make someone's life better or see someone else not go down the same road as either frank or engine. Let's talk about the reality of the death penalty in California, girl, well, the reality of the death penalty is that they use it on you. You have no future,

time is of the other reality is you could be here a long long time on death row? I think the average model time is what, like twelve to eighteen years of the ever get around to do any of there isn't a fast track, which is probably good. I mean some people very eager to what what's been found guilty and sentenced to death was neukom, but I've seen too many cases where someone put on death row, for God knows how many years and then they're cleared no, no, they didn't do it. Here's new evidence, the dna was also a surprising and shocking, is we're talking about this with the stones on both of our shows and it's a Michael grease back. There are some prosecutors that do not want people coming forward with new evidence for DNA that will sure or not to approve the killing, was innocent, they've been wrongfully convicted and they will fight against that the

hey information being brought in one of the statements are, as we did need DNA to convict him. So why should we look at it now? That kind of bothers me regulate your face? You know in California I mean I want to say this. One is spent more than ten years. Since an inmate was executed in California, am ale and spend since one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight since a woman was executed in California and despite California, burgeoning prison population is only twenty women. I think on death row. It's not likely that Angie is going to get executed. Nor is it like.

Lee that she's Stephen Avery that come to life in the form of a very large female guys years, large now used to be so. When you see the book, you'll see the photographs, he was very, very good. Looking DOW's issue looks like job of the hot, but I guess is part of that. The the diet they serve you in prison, which is that we use do you ever talk about in the book you just we touched on it a little bit, but for this person that did come from from the projects and also did to hang around with bad boys and, like you say, smoking meth, what was her reaction in prison or reactive, Cooper, we are- I don't so she did an interview with the LOS Angeles Times about six months too a year after her sentence- and you know

she did take a very sort of you know. I didn't do this type of approach to it, but you know I mean that's that part of it. You should never gonna we've a lot of it. There's no there's no exculpatory evidence. He would even say that at the last minute she changes stores that we have to kill himself. He committed suicide right. Our marriage wasn't going well allowing up all yeah and and there's no. You know, like I say: there's no, there's nothing! Exculpatory! There's no evil police department here, there's nothing Not we like these. You know cases were hearing about more more like I'd, nine and the real or Stephen Avery, and to to make in making up a murder that this is a murder, so she's been in prison in the state prison for well, over a decade. For a while there she was on line seeking penpals at one.

Point Berlin? I wrote to her and she posted on it sit on her pen, pal profiled. You know she didn't want to talk to journalists uh I journalist yeah. Well, I mean murderers are ok, I guess I can't blame her. You know, I think that you know we've heard that she and she's Has yes, some contact her family and she's not completely. You know address stand alone uh, the women on death row or a fairly tight knit community. They put out a newsletter once a month bring themselves, and you know each of them knows what each other story is, and you know Unfortunately, most of them began with abuse. End with some horrible crime, uh and the death row in California, for women is in a place called Chowchilla. It's

about halfway between LOS Angeles in Sacramento in Israel, a vast wasteland of you know cow shit and just you know over run far things that are decimated by this drought and uh. It's it's not a place that you want to go visit, or a place that you want to live out the rest of your life and- and you know to think that you In her case, you know going from the projects to Florida to this beautiful place in Central California and ending up. You know and in the heart of that nothing You know, country, music. Central is just that yeah, I guess that's the price you pay. Yeah? Well, it could have been any everyday to make her life happy. You know, I don't know what happened is she gets there?

siri- does not amused the Christian to ask them for all sorts of things. Almost demanding you know, send me a color tv. You know, send me Is it me that, after a while I mean okay, baby blood is thicker than water, but you know when you got a at least one homicide proved her sisters of assembly, then to kill the kid, but she doesn't believe it educational Frank. It is hard of the ownership of the only go so far after awhile. What is there's there been any reaction at all that you know of from from her about your book. Then, in a careless comment, I don't I don't know- I mean the books been out for a couple

It is number one on Amazon today get the book which you probably will cycle path so to a past, love reading about themselves and quite often the the the stories they spin well, for example, of fatal beauty, which we talked about on your show previously Dan Church Run, the Glover FED be all sources that the did was that didn't pan out, but I've dreaded the reality. You know what I found in my research and she sent me a letter saying your books, because we a lot of trouble here, in prison, because the other prisoners of Reddit they're going Rhonda. What you tell me about your crap if, well you know, I mean that's admit, that's probably the the fate. You know the show read this and she probably does like to by herself, I mean she certainly open up to that La Times reporter. And in the course of the

polyphase. She really opened up to a couple of psychologists who deeply examined her. So I imagine she'll she'll want to read, you know, she'll want to read it. I don't think she's gonna like to put the portrait. No, it is not it's not flattering in anyway, and thing is, is that yeah? This is just sad thing about this. Is that there Real victims in this, including her daughter having daughter her. You know her ex husband and her sister. You know in Angie's sister as well. As you know, Frank's whole family, who you know I mean there bra turn son was taken from them needlessly. I mean a real real tragedy in this case. You know that just emanates out. And waves around anyone who ever touch this woman's life yeah

Now we will get a couple minutes. So let's talk about this is a wild blue press release. So tell us a little bit about Wildblue preps the release. Where best to get this book and a little bit more information about you personally, if anybody would like to contact you Frank for you, burl give us that contact information, please call sure, were actually of the specialists on investigation discovery. Very nice, six o'clock, Pacific nine o'clock eastern time regular, will both be tweeting on twitter. We very well, I said I'd

what it at will the best and so look for that the hash tag of whatever that is taste for murder and during the special, both one of the great okay. What a ginger John Harmon writers of the veterans were published made. A great comment I thought about was she was so impressed. The wild blue dress participated in the queue in a the we had on Facebook yesterday and I was stopped and realized. You know she's right. That is impressive for the publisher to participate, while all these years have been great. Publishing house and I just love that were associated with them for this book. The they put. You know they the great editing, effort, they've done a fantastic marketing campaign and

You know this special ed girls talking about on discovery. It's really something to see now you can follow us at borough. Bear that. A r or at Frank, Girardeau it's g, I r a r d o t on Twitter and please do get on twitter and follow us will be, and, of course, will be happy to tweet at yeah yeah we'll do it at your all right. You get the book immediately, if not sooner, by simply going online to Amazon dot com or, while blue press dot com. If you get this book as an instant download ebook for Kindle WAR, you can order it in paperback. You can hold it and sniff it, and you know what to do your chest and if you want your Kindle version autographed, you can go to also Graham dot com and request a like chronic autograph for your kindle from us. So all right and we will- and we will be happy to do that- updated audio book coming soon. Yeah.

And you can get it at your bookstore too. If you want to go down to the local bookstore in order, yeah there's so many of them And I got a letter of we have time. I just wanted to say, and I was worried about my Michael. What is the first time I've written a whole way, true crime book with another author and collaborative experience, and I could be more thrilled and delighted. Well, that's mutual, we're all very, very mutual. I did I just love working with well great, so we'll get rich again and the Yeah, well, I think it's a great partnership, obviously evidenced by this great book. So thank you very much, gentlemen. Bro bear Anne Frank, Gerardo for coming on and talking about this book. A taste for murder song wanna. Thank thanks for having us have a free evening will be will both head on by on my show Saturday we'll talk about you, DM okay, well,

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