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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer, true crime, history, room murder, with your host journalist and author Dan good evening at the end of the world, Is the remarkable story of a series of murders that occured in an extremely remote corner of the Arctic in nineteen forty one, those murders show that senseless violence?

in the name of religion is not only a contemporary phenomenon and that a people a seemingly peaceful as the Inuit. Can become unpeaceful at the drop of a hat or in this instance a meteor shower at the same time, The book is a warning cry against the destruction of. What's left of our culture cultures- humanity along the dusty, mission of the natural world has technology dip five dust of our eyes. The author asks, as it deprived the world of birds, beasts and flowers law. Millman's at the end of the world is a brilliant and original book by one of the boldest writers of an of our era. The book tour featuring the eve is at the end of the world, a true story, of murder in the Arctic. With my special guest journalist and author Lawrence Millman, welcome to the pro gram and thank you for agreeing this interview Lawrence Millman Thank you Dan for having me on the show. Thank you very much. Let's get right to this

fascinating story? What. Brings you to this story. What background What interest you have? How did you come to want to write at the end of the world. Well, on something of a Canada file, even though I live in Cambridge Ma- and I know your country far better- And more intimately, then I know, my own prince tence. I've been the Labrador fifteen times, I've never been to Texas. And I've spent a lot of time in the Arctic Arctic Antarctic Hand. Increasingly, you might say, an old Arctic Ann, And I tend to like the Arctic because there's more nature than there is human beings.

And I'm constantly sort of looking for stories as an author, I'm looking for stories that either haven't, been told or have been told, poorly and also looking for parts of the Arctic that are sort of ignored. In the media and indeed in the book world, so the Belcher islands. Now no penis the lack workplace that it always been interested in I researched them, and there were as long ago, an article in the canadian magazine- the Beaver about the murders in one thousand nine hundred and forty one. There is also a somewhat lengthy chapter in a wonderful boy

so I recommend to everyone by writer named Ray price of the book's title is the howling Arctic and the Various sections consists of while they're quite a few murders in that book. Often murders of white lures or outsiders, or Hudson Bay Company people by natives, who maybe did not appreciate their presents so I kind of zeroed in on this. And decided that I wanted to write something about it and I needed in fact go to the Belcher islands. I wanted to experience culture. This was in two thousand and one A few years back, I wanted to experience the culture that might well be Tradi, I should

that here the time well not so much traditional, I'm somewhat backward, I don't own, a car, a microwave cell phone, anything like that so I appreciate being among people often traditional First Nations people who don't own cars or microwaves either. So a lot of things brought me all the things sort of came together and I found myself in Belchers in September, two thousand and one talking to Inuit elders about the murders. Now you go backwards and you talk about In the book about the late 19th century, in English, Missionary Reverend Ej Peck translated the new testament into Inuit Syllabics Deltix

in order to bring the Inuit the glad tidings of Jesus and give them a burning zeal for their salvation and one of those revenues. Packs Bible made it somehow to the Belcher islands in the 1930s, and you say that the per person interpret it to the other Inuit was a man named Keith. We act Maybe this pronounce that name so person over and over again they just it was very simple. That Jesus was a great person in Saint, was a nasty one, and you say that he quoted Matthew in this Inter station translation. He quoted Matthew. Twenty four tell us what text Bible said about the stars and the Jesus Christ. Coming back well. What I'm going to have to do down is go to the exact paragraph in my book.

In order to that out, because the meteor shower. There is a meteor shower in the yes here goes stars will fall from the sky and you will see the Son of Man coming. Now the Son of Man. That seems to me to be a bit of a contradiction. The Bible is full of contradictions, Jesus, so the This was interpreted. Very lengthy meteor shower extended over the sky do the winter of nineteen, forty one and it was interpreted it as a sign essentially- The Son of Man is coming now it might not,

it's been interpreted in this way, if it hadn't and for the fact that this was very bad winter. As far as hunting goes, the do it in the belchers were dependent upon seals. Walrus. Arctic hares. And so on, In order to survive so and the no caribou anymore, been you know in you're part of the 19th century. The last of the Karabo died out there, so the combination of well, the Son of Man, is coming maybe even eminently, and the fact that there was almost no food.

Inspired. A man named Leah Rock a would be shaman. To consider himself, the Son of Man, You know consider, this rather demented, but if you look at it in a certain way, you might think this is a follow. Who was a the shaman he? You know the undercoat is the word for shaman. You cook, plural, always did things that were maybe a little bit did and from happenstance raising the dead determine the whereabouts of game, and you could maybe see that this is a kind of determination of the whereabouts of gain by appointing oneself Jesus.

It may have been a mixture of that and ego. Centricity, but you It's a very short man, the elderly woman who was disc, typing him and asked me not to use her name in my book. Point put her hand on my shoulder to indicate his height this would have made him fifty one five to one could say perhaps that he suffered from the napoleonic complex. It is if you're very short, you want to do something that will make you bigger Napoleon did indeed do something that would make him bigger, by trying to take over all of Europe or track on the lesser scale, presented himself to the Inuit in the belchers as Jesus and one has to think of this in a certain context,

context. The number of first nation peoples have or dad being that you could be simultaneously uh a number of different organisms. Usually an animal and human being that So some of the early shamans in Labrador, Inglor were became horrible in order to determine the whereabouts of the Karabo Soorya Rock Yes- he was cheeses. But only on the inside and the outside, he he was or Iraq, and this was not at all, take and as well it's a peculiar the fact that he didn't look like Jesus, he looked like his same old self was more or less accepted by the other Inwood.

And the sign which was that extended meteor shower they do about the reference in to Matthew in the Bible. And so I think, although I don't in the book. I think where you rock was chicken will be interested in that bible and certain passages that might have to do with Jesus. He may have indeed- and I don't say this in the book He may have been plan. State planning in advance his. What should we say? Arrival as the Son of Man or the Son of God. You talk about so you talk about. Eurorack also declares that Peter Sallis,

The very very good hunter he's the tallest man in the Belcher islands, he's recognized and respected in the community and your rack decor Is that Peter is God, and he is Jesus Christ. Yeah, and then he also says he thinks about it. To you say Peter thinks about it for a couple days and yeah. I guess I am God and their first, Religious edict that they pronounce is that most of the sled dogs to be killed because those dogs were saying so tell us what the view of who is Satan. If these guys are Jesus Christ and God who is Satan, how do they determine it and also what is this idea that did the kill the sled dogs? What The mentality also included in what they I have to say to these people. In terms the end of the world. Well, first of all,

at the end of the world in this context is not a bad thing at all, it's the end of starvation is the end of suffering. It means food in the form of seal. Walrus fish, and so on the runway available to all anytime, they want it available, So you know almost like that, the the notion of killing one sled dogs. Becomes really reasonable? I don't know I wasn't there, I'm not certain that I would have. Proof of having my dogs killed, but if food is available and if one reason one has dogs is to to wherever best place for seal hunting in the winter is then the absence of those dogs? Isn't such a big deal?

to call them Satan, means, I mean they're called generically Satan Indivi will dogs, so Satan in so rubber, Satan, etc I don't know if they were in visually thought of safe safety. A generic group called Satan. It simply ignorance, about Satan, not that I know anything about Satan, but I've never encountered him, but he's a bad guy he's not someone you want to have around and I have no idea how deeply their thoughts about. The Bible. Readings went but site with someone you needed to get rid of or something and I think the reason that the dogs were picked You know.

Calling him Satan may have been a way of getting rid of them, whether we rock Salah believe they were Satan, be another matter, but it was a way of getting rid of them because, as it had but at the end of the world was coming in, everybody would have far more sealed meats and they would need an. A lot of this has to do with it period of starvation and the mind works in peculiar ways, when there's no food on the table, it makes leaps and bounds that not might not make in a situation where you can, always go to a TIM Horton's and have coffee and fifteen donuts. So I think that that that first edict- it might seem bizarre, but it put it within the the proper context. Let's sew-

and again this is all based on. I don't know if you would call it a misunderstanding of the Bible up my point of view. It's very hard to understand the Bible. I I see it as something akin to a surreal document and It happens. The the actually said we're jumping bit forward here, but a trapper on the mainland of quebec- far from Great Whale river it's time that the murders became public said the person who should be punished is the way one who brought this Bible to the Belcher Islands and to I would say here here h e, a r, not h e r t a lot of this has to do. I mean you know

is someone down. For instance, I've done quite a bit of translating of any what folk tales and some of them are truly bizarre and I provided them. If I showed them to you without giving them a context, you would you would perhaps misinterpret them or think of them in a bizarre way and there's no context for this Bible in spell trial and there is no sense of a church congregation. Excuse me a bunch of ministers and, as I mentioned later in the book, the idea cross in a place that doesn't have trees. It was more or less incomprehensible. Let's talk about now the beginnings of these murders and this madness that you speak of based on hunger based on

bizarre interpretation of the Bible and this extra long meteor shower, and this is a Sarah about a pot cook. And she and Peeta rated form the other Inuit that he was God inside and out and as you write Sarah said, You are Peter Sala outside and inside Apparently they declared her Satan, declared Auriac and then right there to put a Primus stove was lit and held close to Sarah's face. Tell us a little bit more about this. How this came to be that suddenly, this woman, that just defied Peter and said he wasn't. God was now murder tell us more about what actually happens. What actually was said. And then who also joins in on this as well well the thing is that you know,

I didn't collect a whole lot of information about Sarah because she was the best friend of the silly woman, who was my main informant and every time the subject of Sarah came up. She burst into tears her grandson, who was helping me with the translations uh. I would say enough for today, but it's nearly as I could tell Sarah was well. She was a teenager relatively independent. Thoughtful, maybe even bit lazy I found out. Maybe that cheat did not do as much work as she should have done around the snow houses and it's possible that her being lazy or being very in collagen or not knowing anything about the Bible.

And, of course no one else really did either may have gotten her the label of Satan, but as she This is the first person to do disagree with Peter an Oreo rock uh, in their new role as deities she was obviously the first person who needed to be punished and what better name, as we know, from the elimination of the sled dogs, what better name to put on this person but Satan, and I think what we have to do is think of this within the context of all sorts of religious frenzies, not just the but in other parts of the world, both present and past. And probability reality. Decency, anything that would suggest logic is disposed of.

And people back to in a state of frenzy so see that Primus stove to her face. It could well be that it was fake. I thought all right: we've got to show these are fellow Inuit, that We are God and say eighty four: maybe they thought they could tell certainly a face so it is in ordinary unlit snow house in the face that as a Primus stove very close to it, is going to look face is going to look a little bit rather Otherwise would be, maybe they thought. Oh yes, read. That's the color of Satan, so she's Satan, but I think it was Now, what was starting out was this frenzy and it was picking

with every moment, and so Sarah. Was the first victim. Because she does, he talked about what happens, he's hit she's hit with driftwood she's beaten with driftwood, then she's dragged it large snow house and a teen Each girl named name Oleinik, hammers are had the key of a rifle, and and soon Alina returns to the snow House and declares my hands are from and from killing Satan and. Now. Somebody saw the inuit peoples now, which talk about a little correction. We can't call them the inuit people because in with means people so essentially one is saying any would saying people people I

To do this, you being the moderate, are in all, but you knew it would be sufficient, so call the Inuit I diss sorry. This is the state that's constantly made both in Canada and the US about the Intuit calling them to begin with people which is redundant. Sorry, okay, go on, and by the way it's also a key nick, not allow. But please go on yeah the new juxtaposes with the you, who are witnessing nine hundred and eleven- and you say in this community at September 13th by the time they see it as a live footage, and that is odd. What you've documents their reaction? This is what their reaction is. Just briefly to this nine hundred and eleven in front of them on the television set Whoa

Well, it really. I was there and watching people watch nine hundred and eleven or. Three days later, so they were Essentia Lee watching broadcast excerpts and they looked at it as if it were a movie. Maybe a Sci FI will be a horror movie, something like that the horror of nine hundred and eleven seemed not to be. Something they were aware of, because perhaps They were watching it on the screen. So one one kid, oh, a kid he was taught. He was my guess, is two years old. Three years old, was looking at the screen and pointing at it and saying.

Which means funny funny And then I'm old man- and this is something that I can now can Get out of my head whenever I see a skyscraper, an old man, said more or less rhetorically seeing the skyline of New York City. How can- people live so far above the ground, Ann uh. I sometimes wonder that myself and then course. You know one man wanted to change it to road runner, cartoon and another man said. Don't know, don't do that this. There is an American here, Maine and country is falling down. And then I did include this in the book, but another man whom I had previously talk to about, baseball, and that are on

the blue Jays. I am attracted- Blue Jays fan, looked at me, and I didn't put this in the book and said what would it be? Ok if we Software was a rerun of a blue Jays game on the news I didn't put that in the book, but we're not being grabbed by this like a show a program, something that was circumscribed by that television screen and became at first, I was thinking about these people are very insensitive my countries national disaster and slowly but surely, as I was watching, I star. You're watching them more than I was watching that disaster and into a totally different conclusion-

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I should say that Peter Sala was unlikely, God he was, the one in and the belchers who'd had considerable experience of the out side world. He drove this led to the mainland too, get the mail from Great whale river, and to bring the materials from the Hudson Bay Company Store in great whale to the tiny little store on one of the islands in the belchers and, in fact, the Hudson Bay Company Man, uh who ran that store was utterly unaware of the murders, such the isolation of that island, but not isolated in terms of communication, but people who wanted anything with pat kayak or bring a dog sleds and get

good he had, which would have been. Sugar. Clothes for clothing anyway Peter had a. Find the Carnegie Museum Expedition, the late 1930s in and around the belchers He knew a little bit of English. You know a little bit about the outside world. He probably when he went to the mainland to pick up the mail or to pick up Hudson Bay. Company products may have even visited church, so although he was the tallest man in the best hunter, he I consider him the slightly candidate to be God So what happened was slowly, but surely he started to come. To his senses,

he admitted on one of the trips with the Hudson Bay Company to the mainland that he said The bad man uh but he didn't elaborate, but he did elaborate too Hudson Bay Company, follow on the mainland. Who was it friend of his and who apparently he was. A who was half norwegian and half creature Harold, old garden? He also play from what I quite well. He told about several of the killings. Carol Bruce the and then told Ernie Riddle the Hudson Bay Company Man and Ernie Allograft.

The RCMP and said motor. We have been created murdered. Several people have been killed in the Belcher islands. Please send investigative group or something like that. So while this was happening. Peter sister minus. Who to the old woman was first normal. Then crazy And that she was truly taken up by the frenzy and she had left her and went to it was for your act? on the assumption. I think that you know having Jesus this one's spouse Was it say you could get to Heaven a lot easier, with him as your spouse. Then you could be with someone else. Is your spouse, so

so what happened was that on this? island cancel violent Where is it? She he and several of the other large group of them had relocated searching. In vain for food? uh she went crazy and said Jesus is coming. Of course she was married to Jesus, and this didn't seem to bother people. You know, could be married to Jesus and then he could still be coming 'cause. There could be, you know, just as there were a plethora of Satans, maybe a plethora of Jesus and we must go out on the ice to meet him. So she started ushering people out and she had a dog whip and I don't know if you're familiar with, he would dog lips, but there nasty. You

used friendly Alaskan put out the or person or remove the ear of a dog person So she had a dog with and she started ushering people who were thinking well, yeah. Maybe Jesus is coming she assuring them out onto the ice and I have no. I tried to figure out what the temperature would have been in March. Ninth forty one might, my guess would be somewhere around between twenty and twenty five degrees below zero Fahrenheit and she was lashing them and they they were going because she say Jesus is kayaking down from the sky. This.

This would seem to be a highly unusual. I mean as as multifaceted as pieces was to kayak view Nick down from the sky would be seen the on his powers. But these were not and they don't want to call them ignorant people. I don't want to call them naive, maybe pre Christian. They were following her every move and she got them a bunch of out on the ice and then said we must greet our Savior naked and she still forcing them should whip them to take off their clothes, and these were mostly kids and older people and there were quite a number of them there and this episode

code. You know several them came to their senses and one of a woman said to my new place: help us take the children back score, store, sorry shore or it'll freeze to death, and she it doesn't matter if they freeze to death. Savior will be greeting, and as it had ones mine, was the one person who kept her clothing on and it might mean something. I don't know you can take it for whatever you wish to take it. What happened? so is a number of them were ushered back, but six people froze to death in each one of them, was related to Peter Sala. Now he He was not there at the time you know,

He was engaged in coming back to the belchers from the mainland. But when he heard about this you know it was, is mother. No know the whole range. You know several kids step son so on and, as I say in the book, inuit men typically don't cry. But when he heard that six family members of his had died on the ice of council island. He started sobbing. Now you talk about. In February one thousand nine hundred and forty one the Inuit in Iraq's camp move to to Karak Island, where they hope something was better.

And so and then you rack was increasingly talk. About the end of the world and if anybody didn't believe they were, they were to be killed, must have a good hunters, and this will be important later in the book, when you talk about unless they were good hunters now, these People were now in the camp of Corak and he was as you write the symbol of justice. So there is a then in that camp that this name it pack six year old man- and he is this- one of the murdered Kita, weird yeah. We are so when he you say he may not have known of his father's death, but he still an opinion of this Korok guy, so tell us what the dispute was and What their relationship was there and what ensues? Well, you know this story, I'm I'm relying on oral oral narratives from

elders, I'm relying on documents. That have to do with the subsequent trials. But there are a lot of gaps in the story and We don't know if the previous tellings there's no information one way or another weather about the his father. It's possible, he didn't It's possible he did, and his response to Iraq was based on that, even though you know in none of the accounts that I read or heard was there a mention that talk really was angry out we rock for killing his father.

So I'm taking it at face value and seeing him as reasonably intelligent in oak. Whose wrist running two or your rock uh. As Jesus and saying hey, you're, not geez, Christ He made known about Jesus Christ from his father made known little bit about him. The Bible does not say a very short is the reincarnation of Jesus. So any rate maybe comments. It's made. Him say you are not Jesus Christ and the world is not coming to an end, and this. This is a very dangerous thing to say and Clorox he's in this book

uh that the Carnegie, assign one of the Carnegie scientist wrote Arthur, told me because he did some burning with Peter Saleh. Is the guide on to and was. He was the leader. And to me said that uh, correct symbol, justice, but justice that was strong and violent. So he I have been a person, who. If a murder needed needed to be done, would bend the likely candidate to do it or at least two inspire it to be done. And you know, in any event that he was

You could call him a chief for band leader most in with groups, had who took over and made decisions When the show much smaller level than say a prime minister or president, and so what said. I said was probably taken pretty seriously and so to Iraq, wasn't pleased that fact now it is divinity- and he said the cleric Jesus will be coming soon and he will not want to meet people like it pack. And that was enough, and that was the end of he got a bullet through his and for your accent- is Satan.

Is dead and it's point. It's very hard to keep count. How many saints are there a plethora of them? I mean One includes the dogs. You know certainly well far more than double figures, maybe closer to one hundred anyway. That was it for It park and what happened was his wife, EVA and some of these in what had names that were given to him. There was a missionary briefly. In the belchers in the 1930s and other people whom he met. He gave. We don't know much about him. He was the one who left the Bible We don't know his name or even the date of his visit, but he gave names that were christian names to some of the Inuit.

Eva is not an Inuit name, of course, and even had set in advanced tool, her husband, all right, keep your thoughts to yourself. Don't speak them out loud because it could be risky. Well,. It back, didn't listen to her, and that was the end of him. Now you write about the slow reply Response from the RCMP that were notified, And you say the reason for that is that the killings occured at the beginning of World WAR two and every available plane had been re re re, requisitioned by the royal canadian AIR Force now, Finally, you say the arson behind the RCMP got there. Well, there was some difficulties, it wasn't easy to get the Belcher islands, but the art,

she. I ended up not getting there so but the problem really was the getting people who are trying the murderous there at the beginning of that was in August of nineteen forty one and They both have difficulties both because of World WAR one, but it was even more difficult finding a plane as the year nineteen forty one progressed sing, some kind of plane that would take them there because otherwise it would you know. Train to can't remember now, if there's a train to moose factory in the late 30s early 40s. Do you know. Oh, I know there is a polar bear Express, but I can't remember when it was, but in any event it was very hard for them. The belchers you're very isolated today, you know,

can fly to could cherubic, which is what we used to be great whale, hop a plane to the Belcher's, a half hour flight back in those days. It wasn't easy, it's hard for the mounties to get there. It was hard for the the people who were trying to murder is to get there, but finally, they got there and there's that's very interesting next question the the judicial team that came to to judge these people was unusual in I've. Never read before it was. There was a. Judge, but it was also journalist. It end up being on the jury, so tell us what made up this judicial team. It was come to judge these anyway.

Well, the important thing to realize that you know there were always geologists about not always starting with The the first outsider ever to step foot in the belt, violence in nineteen sixteen was Robert Flarity. He was there a mining engineer. Not he became well known for his film Nanook of the n, which was made on the mainland, but he made a earn on oak in the Belcher islands, That was something so there and he actually that film in his it, parents of overwintering, the belchers moved him. Career changer could call the mining engineer becomes filmmaker. But other mining injured, they're looking for iron ore, mostly in that part of Hudson Bay and so

the jury, what I I think it's important to be aware of is there are no eating with on the jury, Ernie Riddle: who's, the Hudson Bay Company Man, several mining engineers. A journalist from a Toronto newspaper. Are the jurors- and you know the one could go into all sorts? have thoughts about this. Is this Prejudicial racial or what or but when one thinks about This contextually, and of the Inuit who were on belchers new. The trial, was the jury was

I wondered why, what's with this thing, that the Judge Judge Plaxton was where bring on his head and one terrorized. Okay, this is wig it's which city was wearing, but maybe it was to protect him from polar bears, because the belief that you had something really thick on your head, then the polar Bear will initially go for the brain both to liquidate, the victim and to give a very good protein that the brain consists of, but if it doesn't here, a telltale crunch but then it might be want to the next victim. And that's what I've learned. Actually, it is not just an adult try this, but in other parts of the Arctic you scream land when you're out think polar bear country or hunting polar bears. You wear a sick apps show You know these people, the notion of a trial to them

utterly alien. They probably even with a union jack, is that was dangling from the tent they The. One my informant said somebody, it was. The journalist started taking pictures and the people were scared, because these are cool, flash pictures that may lots of noise. They were scared. Is this some kind of weapon white men a weapon that they didn't know about. He was pointing them at p, pointing this camera people was he shooting them while he was shooting them, but he was shooting. Pictures of them, so you could put with context this sort of naive. But if you want to call it that I guess I said I don't call it naivete, I think of it as being something like it's, other world. Just as you down, if you were suddenly on a walras hunt in nineteen forty,

the the do print the drill for the hunt, what one does the harpoon, all that will be very alien to you, and so the This trial was alien to liniment. You could argue, perhaps the re and that the Canadian. Judicial force didn't want to include, and in a look on the jury is that they they won't know. They won't understand the language. A lot of this was done through translators, they won't understand the language and they just won't understand the whole judicial procedure. Right bit of a long answer to your short question, but there you are thanks: who are you say there were seven accused alikan, Aki Nick Paul cock were joy, might be charged with the murder of Quito, Wick, Ola, Ric and Crack were charged with

murder of Ic Pack and Mina was charged with multiple murders right away, Jaymin is diagnosed as insane and unfit to stand trial and, interestingly, you have attending rap to a stretcher and screaming periodically of what you did talk about was the crown process. Our homestead and he can and it was unfair to treat as equals the members of an aboriginal race who, up to twenty five years ago, had never seen a white man and the new pose the question. What can you conclude that? But he also said later he said the Eskimo was still a child, so that was the sort of the tone of this trial, wasn't it. It was definitely the tone of the trial. It was the tone of not only white attitudes toward the and the Belcher, starting with who thought of that is

He thought of the local people as children and he thought of Nanooks the postman, in in. Actually who played Nana Cousin n as a child of Nanik was about. I don't know forty fifty years old, you know it's simply. The prejudicial attitude toward first nation people that Outsiders have if they don't know how to read, write, drive an automobile. Do all the things that white people down south to therefore they are a child, and I had this just one of the last to die amongst my informants He was a whimsical man A lot of things would have winter coat. He was even more whimsical than some of the others. Talarik talk with his name

and I was chatting to him about the trial he gave me some information. He mostly got his information from his father and uncle. He wasn't quite old enough to remember most of the trial, but I asked him I said well. How would you feel thanks, but if someone called you a child. He looked at me and he smiled, and he said I would send that person to an eye doctor well that's a whimsical response, but nowadays you know a lot of first nation people in counted are regarded by the out largest children and their responses, not quite till then, once the Koran and justifiably so whimsical their culture is different, and you know the the notion of branding one called,

your friends another, obviously that other Trison furrier and what better way to brand that culture doesn't courier by saying other children and were adults yeah now that trial proceeds. You have the separate trials for these people, but and then they have witnesses, and you do talk about the sort of sponsors that seem quite into thing that the the accused cooperate with the RCMP, you- save the simple reason that they probably were being fed. Well, and so then they see a police officer. They just hug the person, so they had no idea that gravity all of them on the stand say. I believe they were saying at the time, but I don't believe that now you do talk about me having again is dying, this is insane so she's she's put in

in a psychiatric facility. You also talk about the first trial with Alec and a key Nick an what is the result that these are again shocking, lenient sentences, but tell us what happens in these trials in terms of sentence ng when all is said and done well their victims. You know it's very typical of the Canadian attitude, and you have to see it as a mixture of superiority and feeling that up, maybe liberal, so it's both real missionary liberal. At the same time not treating first nation people in the same way judicially as one would treat one's own people because they come from a different background with a different tradition. And so you know the

the first mentioned it, you, you indicated that minor was brought in she was tied to a stretcher. And it was maybe thought that some She would come to her senses, I'm not sure, but I think that all the persons who are being prosecuted were more or less obliged to attend the trial and my instinct. Tells me so most of the screens. Came from the fact that she was being attacked by mosquitoes and couldn't slap them, because she, this tide to a stretcher and August when the trial occured is the prime mosquito season in the Belcher Islands and indeed of the mainland of Qubec, I see,

that here that the Belcher islands aren't party come back even though they are very close to deck. I think it's fifty some odd see miles there part of new Nevet and ruled buy a keloid others deafen at the time. However, they were considered part of Qubec. Temporary insanity who the What the hell is that uh- I mean here either insane or not, and actually the whole notion of insanity might have been something that they might have not quite understood, but what was happening and as much with the path such a time as with The trials themselves of the people were slowly coming to their senses and seeing that what Happ in the early when the winter bird during a very stressful period and this was

less stressful period and they had a different view of the world now than they had before, and they were party, to see that I suppose you, say the errors of their ways. I I don't know if I'm getting ahead of myself, the Kenic. The girl, who. Killed Sarah Well, Do you want to ask a question about their relocation to the mainland? They were exiled, they were exiled in and were with the exception. Of correct. Well, they couldn't come back. He was allowed to stay there because he was a good hunter and a good provider He would provide for the families of those who

hunters who were exiled in perpetuity to the mainland. And that included go ahead. You talk about your act receiving two years with hard labor and to be served in Moose factory- and he was never to be allowed to the belchers again you're Salus trial, you say August 20th, one thousand nine hundred and forty one. You talk about headline in the canadian newspaper. Will God be hung in the culture? They also refer to as a prophet movement, and he again had is Satan present in the courtroom. He said no, He also got two years with hard labor and he was also exiled forever, and and you say other people were relocated as well. So and then you talk about you dying in May one thousand nine hundred and forty two under

again maybe not suspicious circumstances, but again not law after this he dies. So you talk about the effect on on this community. With these people exiled, you were there. You talk to these people. What was the result other than when you go to the website? There is no mention of these murders whatsoever. What did it do to this community things to me, one travels. Today, around parts northern Canada, one sees the effects of. Reactionary Christianity, often Pentecostalism. I will

mention the name of the community, but it was a creek community and I was getting lore, it had to do with captain the divination to take the shoulder bone, one of the shoulder bones of a mammal one, your hunting and you put it over a fire and you read it, and the cracks and char marks tell you where you'll find that animal so uh. This recording information from Cree elder and what how open was that this was a community that was kind of Costel. He was savaged, he was Coldwell. You've told this outsider about this particular thing from our past before we became true Chris and now he'll spread it around that we are both beavers and Satan and the Pentecostals have been very good at getting rid of cultures, singing dancing, folklore and in this instance, scapular domination.

So so back to Belcher islands. What I found is that now is there less are. Only Christian, the number of first nation people and if there's something like Good time to collect berries on Sunday morning will go out and collect berries resident go to church. That's one thing. But there still remains this deep embarrassment about the murders. And talking about them, it wasn't easy for me to find people willing to talk to them as One man said to me comparing what he said to the murders, if your daughter was raped. Would you go around talking about it, so this uh indicates why it's not on the on the Belcher Chilliwack website

a lot of people are sort of hesitant to talk about it and I should mention that Peter Sala after he was eighty got relocated. Back, he asked to be relocated back the belchers in the 1980s and he was because it was thought that in eighty something year, old in oak could probably not do a whole lot of harm, but. This was forty five years, forty four years after is being God. He was shunt, cool spot at him. You know he's been aware. I mean he he had seen the light so to speak and it wasn't religious light although he related became a real religious devoted. He realized, though, that what he had done

Was extreme, Really bad he wanted to be near his family, certain members of his family, wouldn't even talk to him as the old woman who was my major informant said, she said I didn't spit at him at all here, already suffered enough, and that's very true now it's Lawrence. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about at the end of the world for those people that might want to follow us up and or view some of your other work. Do you have a website for this book and how might people might contact you? I know you're not technologically up

and something so maybe you don't have a facebook page but tell us how people might be able to whoever Facebook page. I have a public facebook page. I have a a young remaining. Who is my digital person and I feed him things to tweet, to put up on the facebook page. I had my own facebook page and I do website, but I have to admit that keep forgetting I have a website and I keep forgetting I have a facebook page, there's so much out there in the real world that appeals to me that the digital world becomes place a second third or fourth fiddle, but certainly I have this is my 16th book it's up those sixteen books, it's one of the system, I my heart. I know I felt that that some of the other books? Maybe I wasn't speaking exact,

What I felt- and maybe it was because of the subject matter- I wouldn't several travel books, I've simply evoking place in those books, but now I had the opportunity to talk about my feelings toward first nation people about technology and about some other things going on in the contemporary world. So, it is very close to my heart, another book that has gotten and translated into a fourteen languages that I wrote in nineteen. Ninety It's a northern book called last places and in that book I follow the Old N Sea route from DORA. Great Iceland to Greenland to Labrador Newfoundland and that is readily available on Amazon. You don't need to go to the Amazon, to acquire you can just simply go to Amazon dot. Com sounds great. I want to thank you Lawrence with,

being honest, is a fascinating story and we just touched on everything that you really delve into a new. Standing these people and how. On earth, something like this could have happened in such a in such a place. So I want to thank you very much for coming on and talk about the end of the world. You have a good good evening, and thank you very much for this and thank you to Dan, and I appreciate your ask me questions, and I hope you won't hold it against me that I corrected a few of them. Thank you. I needed to be corrected, so thank you very much and have a great night. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, bye,.

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