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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer, true crime, history, room murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. The best When author of undercover of the night recounts, Laura Ackerson's disappearance and murder in North Carolina. The discovery of her remains in Texas and the aftermath

on July 13th, two thousand and eleven Lord in Ackerson of Kingston. North Carolina went to pick up her two toddlers sons would be the last time she was seen alive two weeks later, detective searching for the missing mother made of gruesome discovery on the shores of oyster Creek, near Richmond, TX the dismembered body parts of a young woman whom they were able to identify his lawyer, Ackerson Laura's X, grant Hayes the Father of a sons and his wife Amanda. The mother of his newborn daughter, both pointed the finger at each other as the one guilty of murdering Laura cutting upper body and then transporting and disposing of the remains This is the hauntingly true story of a devoted mother, a disturb couple and how these horrific events came to pass. The book there were featuring this evening is bitter, remains a custody battle, a gruesome crime and the mother who paid the ultimate price. With my special gas journalist and author

Diane fanning welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing this interview. Diane fanning good evening Dan hope you're doing well tonight I uh I'm doing very well. Thank you very much Diane for those out there. Just for the record dance. Fanning was, are very, very first guest and here, she is once again with another soon to be true crime classic well. Thank you very much Dan. Let's set up this a little bit by, of course, you are a person that knows about all things. Texan so tell us a little Where this area really is this oyster creek and before we talk Will North Carolina but uh, where this is in Texas and tell us a little bit about some of the the two locations before we get into this macabre tale. This is a

A location that is near Houston, TX and in between Houston and Katy TX of the oyster creek runs ultimately feeds into the Gulf of Mexico, but it's a little way. You see in where the body parts were dumped is very rural area and not many houses along the along the road Ann Laura, was living in Kinston North Carolina KIDS is small town round about an hour and a half at a Raleigh, and it was where green haze

had been raised. An Laura was in a relationship with Grant Hayes for quite some time and and that's how she ended up in the town of Kingston. Now you talk about how, the two met and and a little bit of background of grant. When you get get a rigid into this story. In the beginning of the book, so grain is a musician, and you can tell him to tell us his race as well as important to the story and tell us a little bit about the how they met under what circumstances did they meet and the relationship develop I was very very quickly they within a year, they are married, so tell us about a little bit about grant, Hayes and tell us about how they met. For we talk about Laura Green Haze, It was a musician performed at smaller venues for the most part,

becoming a staple on the rally music scene and There were a lot of people who thought he was very talented of few disputed that when he was. Warming. He had a mountain of charisma going for him. He was an african american man from Kingston North Carolina now living in Raleigh. He dead, uh was able to get work in the virgin islands. Ultimately went there, but in Raleigh he was performing one night and Laura came to all see the show and hang out at the venue an she went backstage and met him that evening and they just started seeing each other and discovered they had

at the same birthday in common and Laura thought. That was definitely a sign of fate and that's how they ended up getting together. She believed in his talent she started managing are some of his bookings and she then moved in with him and they had a child named grant Junior. No, we can talk about right after they got married, The honeymoon was over and tell us like what you have in the book in terms of the kinds of Requ tests now that they were married, that he asked of of Laura has to talk to his fans would have a kind of requests that you have written in the book.

He wanted her to talk about sexual things with his fans. He basically wanted her to make them want him and it was kind of a strange thing. He wanted to lure in the female fans and to act very of tacious and come on ish with the males and and he even wanted her to engage in sexual activity if it would further his career. And when she objected to some of the things he asked for, he told her well you're a white woman

is a black man. Everybody knows your trash, yeah yeah. He also at this time to at this point, even is suffering from delusions and in the form of he thinks he's a time traveler and that there is beings. And the world will end in December 31st, two thousand and twelve, so and any also has this idea that he would like to be a polygamous and this is early on this- is why she still pregnant. He floats this polygamist idea and you say. Two within seven months or so after the wedding he's me. Sing. Another woman either sending a single or acting like you single another woman named Kristen. Tell us a little bit about the also demonstrate some things about his personality.

Laura's friend, Heidi Shoemaker does what that relationship was like and what the grant think of it Grant told her. That Heidi was the band influence on her and did not want her to have anything to do with Heidi, and I think a lot of it was is the grant was a very controlling personality and in typical controlling manner he tried to cut her off from the rest of the world, He didn't want her to have friends outside of his friends. He didn't want to have. Much to do with her brother, who was living in the area he will really wanted to have her under his control roll at all times, and he made things difficult for her

and, unfortunately, Laura was lacking in to self confidence and the past history of a functional family too. Be able to push this away and to understand it really had nothing to do with her was all about grant and she stuck with the relationship of it. She was about to have a child and she did not want that child to be from a broken home as she was now. It gets to the point through other than delusions, there's also hard drug use like cocaine and possibly heroin, or at least cocaine at this time and frequent drug use and then the parties and things associated with. Musicians in playing in clubs, occasionally even to the point in where there's an infant intervention in two thousand and nine by grants family, and he has some delusion.

About fifty kids and all races and some kind of empire. So tell us a little bit more about the kinds of characteristics that she's experienced in this first your marriage and having a child and what was he like period? He would do some very, very strange things. He had this philosophy of life that he came up with, That was this strange amalgam of elements of Scientology elements of christianities, The elements of alien beings taking government and- feeling that they were watching

him and following him and trying to keep tabs on him, and he felt that he was one of the special people and he had to accumulate wealth and build his empire because he was going to be one of the chosen ones to go to this special place when the world came to an end and he it reflected in its relationship with Laura, because he felt that she should go. Along with whatever he said, should be done, an whatever he believed, and if she got on his nerves, he would do some of the most bizarre thing. Like one night he was shooting afterwards. The BB gun in front of a friend and she trying to get him to stop and and

are the only way she can cater to stop was get out of the room, but you wanted to use that shit go pass treatment here. She was getting hit any place where it would do serious harm, but it hurt and- and it was it was cold and he seemed to think it was all funny and no big deal, but how much of that was influenced by drugs and how much was just his defective personalities, hard to tell no you chronicle in the book that Heidi and lowers relationship is is, is secret because grant disapproves of it. But it gets to the point where Heidi gets a concealed weapons permit because they are caught together and he wore

burns them. An tell us about this warning. How serious is this warning so that she gets goes and gets a concealed weapons, permit and then recommends that Laura gets one to tell us a little bit about this. Well, they they were getting together surreptitiously and he just happened to come to the place. When that they're going for dinner and they were out in the parking lot and he chastise, Laura and said you know, you're not supposed to be seeing her an and you know you people ought to listen to me, because I know people who were snuff out your life so fair, you won't know what half and Aaron you threaten to kill them if they didn't stop seeing each other and he he was pretty scary that that

evening and all that is what prompted hide you to go and get a concealed carry license and she wanted Laura to get one slash but Laura just didn't It comes in all and didn't want him around, so she bought Laura knife. Yeah now tell us the Circa stances in which again we talked about this guy's music career. Some people think he's quite talented, some people not so much there's a lot of competition out. There he's not really paying the bills from this, but there seems to be some again some interest in this guys, a singer songwriter. So tell us about this gig t or this someone this phone All of this opportunity that comes from the caribbean Islands from Saint John from an it tell us a little bit about this and then what happens as a result well,

at one point I was making a decent living as a musician, but then he started spending so much money on drugs that you know it ate it all up, and between that and his bar bills. There wasn't much left to bring, and now he got a call from a guy now a couple of years before who was now down working in the entertainment field in Saint Joe on, and he was told that he could get as much work as he wanted down there. There were plenty of employment opportunities for music so grant went down there and and at that time, Laura had pretty much attic and she was planning, to leave him.

And then shortly after you left right before she was going to leave and head north? She found out, she was pregnant for the six. And when she found that out, she felt she had to go and try to make the relationship with grant work. So she went back down to the virgin islands. That's where she discovered that he had met someone named Amanda Smith, who Was someone who had a sufficient amount of money, and he convinced her that all This was all it was. Was a man and it was for his sugar momma and she was going to help finding it just career and help him get ahead and each. He was only seeing her for the sake of his career

and the betterment his family. Now she had when they met you put in these The numbers so we're talking about almost one hundred and ninety thousand in cash he had for this inheritance. She had seventy, seven thousand valuable jewelry so. One slash four million dollars and in short order. So so what have? with Amanda. She goes back to New York. He is in he's in the islands? Lord discover Is that there's this other woman and then and has to listen to his his grand scheme that listen he's only doing it for the betterment of his own family just to get ahead. So you say, Laura goes back, tell us the other

Laura went back to the United States, because their new baby gentle was having a health problem and it would sell. The best thing to do is to go back to the United States to get him to help you need it 'cause. It was thought that he was going to need some surgery, and there was this with- jump to you is born with, and so she returned to the United States and she kept waiting for grant to come back to, but he didn't and Then, when Amanda who had met me, islands move back to Manhattan, I'll grant, followed her and sorted. Came knocking at her door after she Vadim an airline ticket and they were

living together in there in her apartment and Laura didn't really so what was going on. She knew that he was in New York and and he kept saying it was just for go to the family and she wasn't really buying it anymore, but then he wanted to see Either here older song little Grant and have him up in New York for a photoshoot said he was going to do some, commercial work with him and he only be gone for ten days Laura didn't want to let her son in her cool fun, go she are we feeling very protective and which concerned about grants motives, and so she just put it off and try to put him and finally, she relented and let

go up there. Well, the ten day stretch to a month into two meanwhile Koreans telling everyone out there that Laura all use these see, dealing with little gentles problems a hand she wants him to keep will grant longer. But that was blatantly on true and and Finally, Lori ended up going to four on her own, without an attorney and filing to get her son back? Is she did that grant called Child protective service

is on her and made up some stuff that wasn't true, and then he came down eventually with grant and and when he did, he went to court and got an Ex parte order, which means it sees before a judge without the other party and he asks for emergency custody. The two boys now we already had grant in his possession. So So when our Kickstarter's at the emergency custody poor little gentle who hardly knew his father was pulled out of his mother's arms and taken away incredible now, there's a couple of people other people

There are important in here, especially a person named Siobhan Mathis, an so tell us about the relationship that Laura has with this other woman, 'cause, there's a different world that she has where people know her a certain way and then her life with grant, and we have to talk about the relationship to when you talk about. She came back and was caring for her son, who had gentle, who had the kidney problem in that grants. Parents are very helpful and active in the raising of these children and even at that time, weren't they yes and she came back to the United States. She moved into a rental property that grants parents owned and mixed change. For her rent there. She cleaned up their day care center each night

So because of that, of course, the spent a lot of time around their grandparents, an built up a close relationship with them. At that time. In this custody battle. We're talking about that Amanda was the only person really bringing any serious money, and She also had these. You know she was dedicated to grant as well and I had some very traditional and traditional feelings our traditional ideas and also some strong feelings for grant and was paying what was amounting to.

A pretty enormous legal bill for this custody battle. Isn't it yes? She she was covering a lot of that and before that, she going through so much of her money on not just for the expense, the custody battle. When Laura Counter sued on the custody agreement, the court order A complete psychological examination, both grant and laura- and that is quite expecting and just paying for that paying for grant to go on trip to Hawaii and other places to look for performance opportunities she's financing x

Pictures to New York to try to sell his all the card to be made. I apple he he did. Some apparently are due to a lot of interest in which were all fall. Particularly once you had been killed and it looked like he was on the verge of getting super deal snows, but he had gone through all of them and is a plane. The walk is suddenly broke, jewelry, punk and pregnant with grants, Cha at the same time we have Laura, who is, you know, had some very troubled times in her life. To choose on the upswing in her life. She is working with the she's metaphor.

Went through, I believe, Heidi name, China, who is an art. List, and they have this little agreement going on that they're going to be able to work with each other and a man Pardon me, Laura has some art of her own. The cheese coming into our own and and and doing her artwork as she is on here started. Go head straight on up swing in her life, yeah she's started, business was Trevan Mathis. All it would sell a very simple thing. They had but two people they were selling to one. They were selling restaurants on the idea of e using the paper placemats with ads

on them in their restaurants, and they would get free place for that, and the upper side was selling businesses ad space. This place mat, and so it was going really. Well, I mean starting out any business is a little difficult. She had her graphic arts business, so one handed man, this restaurant marketing business on the other and Siobhan. Mathis was her partner and they were working and building up a clientele list and having success that was building every month. Things were going really well on purse five. She gotten Aplica Brown All she had worked a part time job until tools is this all all three

and she was taking care of things in her personal life and fears of a stronger person, so that be the best mother. She could be used very, very determined, to be a good mother and to provide everything she could for her boys. She wanted them to have a better life. Did you ever had and she was making great strides towards that. She had a mentor and she was getting advice there. She was involved in the Everything in her life was looking up in twenty eleven. Now, let's talk about.

The what her real wish was in terms of the children. Just for the record. Did she was her idea to get full custody. What was grants idea? What was her idea and what was the dispute in terms of? Why were they going through this custody battle? What did she want? What did he want because it it will be important to the rest of the story. Yeah. He really wanted full custody. He actually wanted to just go away. He didn't see. Hi Archie was important in the voice live just because she was there biologic call mother, it's just he had another woman, it could be their mother, and so that should be good enough for the boys. He did not acknowledge anything having to do with her port input, We should know, and he he Mando trap.

Well whenever they wanted to be free to moved to Nashville, where it songs he had written, and they thought that the chip Bridgeville travel with him, it would be right for them not to have those opportunities and Laurel J standing in the way of all. This Laura, on the other hand, felt that for any child, both parents are in play, portent roll is there a long time and she wanted to have an equitable in one all mixed, scaring off the raising of two children, all two more or sign victims to sell it TED Grant shadowed all the harder ones for her. Two one actually share custody with him,

and the psychologist was doing the work on writing them up, and things were not looking good for grain. To even share custody. All gross. You pointed out character flaws in Laura which floor it took one and was looking to work to make herself of her person korean, on the other hand, was actually pretty scary. He wrote on his copy, he wrote also knows dial, eighty really are just wanted, the kids all to himself and he his eyes. It was my children

she was basically only the vessel that brought them to blocks and he didn't see any reason why she had to to be such a nuisance in his life. But when he was looking at every port that he got from the psychologist, he he was in deep trouble that look like very possible. That Laura was could full custody of triple a yeah. He wrote on this folder which they found later in the truck. It said, notes B S and never He was, he was Laurel with Craig, and you know he was since he was six or more stable, but this icon, it's

I just was looking at all so this and saying hello, I had some emotional problems and that you need to work on, but she also Laura said I really would like to have on. I'm going drug testing for both of us, because great got a bad history on a long history of drug abuse and she put that in there and she, you know when she testified in Fort she said well. He was because of grant that that in there- and it was, it was a very- has situation nonetheless, in June when Amanda was about to give birth to her. Child grant was really really nice

to Laura and after, she would. You know, take take here for a week. Can you tell that to me and was about to give birth in the great could very, very nice when you want something from me, but no still, he was very this kid yeah. Then he was being nasty to her again and telling her she couldn't have her Wednesday night. This it's at all, even though the psychologist, the saying that the boys for so little, they need to see each more with with greater frequency. Okay, he wouldn't have any mid week visits with the boys and all, nor is the excuse he

gave was that she was too emotional and saying goodbye to that and she smacked this woman, how going home she's just walk away? What was relationship between Amanda and Laura. For the record, it was a strange thing because, on the one hand, Laura felt her boys were a lot safer because Amanda was day watching over them when they were with great, on the other hand, of Amanda had been One sided version of life by grant and he she thought that Laura was psycho, crazy and told her so and

So she always had this really negative, few of what Laura was up to in which wanted and that she was crazy, because she, believing what grant told her and so the we try to get along and then there would be a lot of friction. You know a one. Look, I even wrote a thank you note to Amanda for taking such good care of the boards, but that Amanda would come back and tell her that the kids were sick all the time, because you don't take care of them right and, and yet I wasn't doing anything wrong.

Welcome of yeah. She took them out and let them running the loop, sprinkler fountains and he had his park and which were there for children run in before a thought that was wrong. That's that would give him colds it whenever Laura thought. There was some serious health concern with school Amanda again would say she was just crazy. So it was nothing Amanda. Nothing Laura could do, could shake Amanda the feeling that Laura's, crazy and so everything she said was under question. The most puzzling character- I think here it obviously is grant, but also it's very complex care through? That Amanda has this person that you know, inherits this money from some of these issues.

Married to that had an unfortunate act. Didn't have swimming action where he's paralyzed and eyes to in her. This money, not through any kind of gold digging reading she's had her bouts with celebrity herself and talent she's a little bit of an actress. She gets take some official training, but doesn't really get any big roles so She's a talented person, good, looking woman, but Amanda is listening to the kinds of delusions that grant is. Saying quite often in the home and some of the behavior that he has, which is leans to at least or is characterizes violent and you At the same time, she is more supportive of what grant is saying versus what Laura is saying,

She really is on his side, or at least sucked into his charisma, or at least at least on his side. Isn't she yes and. Amanda, A adult daughter from her first marriage and The to grant was her third and she all your daughter when she found out these three life philosophy correct. Add about the aliens and all the the the secret place, to go to be for the special I she said something to her mother. She said you know boy. Is he serious stuff? This? Is this a joke

And Amanda says no he's very serious and it would make sense to you so if you came from the place where he came from and that really really struck shade odd that her mother would be so accepting of this wacky theory of life that grant had in this sense that everybody was out to get him because he was a black man right. Now, let's go to just previous to the day in question July: thirteen two thousand and eleven and let's talk about what Laura was doing and who is she corresponding with. Because right away, her behavior is when it isn't in care. Doctor people are alerted. So let's tell us just what was Lord doing on the

today? What was she supposed to do and was there any? What was the event that was supposed to happen that day and tell us who in Laura Circle, was in contact with her would notice? Anything was amiss well. Laura was was doing a lot of business. Calls that day she was to order heading from Kingston in the direction of Raleigh and make multiple stops along the way all along. She was calling back to Siobhan and reporting on her success and she was having one after another. After another specific, a fabulous day, business wise, she was supposed to meet, grant

one is called monkey chairs in order to visit with kids and her her appointments kept being longer than expected, because they were all being successful. So she was running behind schedule and she had to change the time in grant said well. The boys will need to take the boys home. She can come here to my apartment and I'll pick them up now now llorar normally did not go there. She knew that wasn't a good idea and it is unclear why she felt ok going there was it just because she wanted so much to see her boys. Always this sort of promise made to her by grant in order to

get her to the house, some people that know her well have said that. The only way she would have gone there was if she thought she was going to come home with her boys. And no one really knows exactly what what was in her mind when she went there. In all likelihood, she had a little tape recorder that she taped all her converse: with with grant on it and all downloaded it to her computer everything you she had, one that disappeared, Longwood Florida So we don't know what kind of things grant could have said to her to get her to come to that apartment. Just was not

anything. Anyone who knew her thought she would do. Now right around soon after this the next day. Is it Siobhan that goes to the police in The short order, an reports are missing, tell us who reports are missing an how to police proceed well Siobhan ARM was just walking distance away from Lawrence apart. She walked up there and it was a gated place so that she couldn't get in, side, but she looked in and was able to see that Laura's car was going so she's soon Laura wasn't there and she saw your text message. She saying her emails just talking.

Friend I'm worried, get in touch with me, please right away and the fact that she wasn't into his cell phone. Was it huge concerned to Shavonne because from new at Laura, always that cell phone on always answered it in case it was something about her little boy and she knew she would never turn it off. So that was very troubling and. She waited for a couple of days of being unable to reach you and finally, on Sunday she got the police to go to the apartment and Laura was not there. And she filled out a new missing persons report on that front. North Carolina.

In, while one Heidi finds out that Laura Smith, hi dear? This is occurred, Rafi and so the computer and she makes gets a CD two in a flux, fraud and fill it up with all the material from a special mail box that she wore the shirt here and it was we're. Laurie used it for it to work positive. All the message is that new recordings and everything else that had anything to to keep the kids in the car she five and she took that information. First of all

If you are Houston and reported to the last play tomorrow, this was your only Dan Amish Saucer drop Ali when the in his temple with found out that Ralph was for extra okay. Okay, all three, the Raleigh police department- and it was symbolic police, found glorious, call. No just for the record as well from Heidi and from Shavonne, her two closest friends.

Did she tell them specifically that grant was violent and was and she felt threatened or her life at risk at all by Graham G East? You told here thanks. She told hard you're ever happen to her creek, all the issue of Auckland. I knew there was a cook three baffle I knew it was bad blood between them, but she really didn't know a whole lot about grant himself. She did know That Laura was devoted to her boys but Now, right away in most as we know in these stories and

fictional and otherwise that there's only the people that are most up on the suspects scale, our people closest to the person in question. So, let's sort of fast forward this a little bit in terms of what does grant Hayes do what's the first thing he does do officially? What does a man to do? What is the family do tell us how they proceed in the next say: forty eight hours there are many trips to target and Walmart there's typical salt purchase. There are the purchase of coolers and garbage bag. And gloves and. Again, there is a rental of a U haul vehicle,

there is a piece of antique furniture in Amanda it says we need need to load up and take out to my sister. She said that it was because she bought the granted sold everything else. She had the value that that might be next, it was, it was a fine piece of furniture was a castle antique, so it was very valuable and but what no one knew

so she was taking out there in addition to that were coolers that were full of body parts it now. The thing is they have what we talked about is they went shopping, so we know that from video tape that he went and got duffel bags, he got goggles plastic, tarps, industrial, trash, bags and the very very important reciprocated reciprocating saw and certain blades and duffel bags a little bit later. And little bit later as well. They get merry attic acid, so tell us what the police do find at the house or pardon me may will go backwards here. Sorry, let's talk about. It is very important Amanda's daughter, Shea and

what she knows and what she is witnessed. Witness to. All she. Knew that Amanda Ann Grant or having to move out of their apartment before they were evicted They said their plans were to move in with grants, parents down in, and so she knew that was going on and more when her mother asked her to come. Take care of the boys, get them out of the house so that we can get some packing done. She did it. She had aside from the fact that her mother took a piece of furniture acts slowly. She considered to be something that would one day be hers and turned it over.

To her on that ticked Shay off a little bit shade. Also when she found out she was going out to visit her aunt wanted to go along and her mother just told her. She was selfish for wanting to do that, and so she was not aware of what was happening in that home, but she was aware that there was a lot of chaos going one and she was angry at her mother for not including her and in the trip out to see someone. On who was a very important part of her life growing up, Then, when the police came and told her that they were looking for her mother,

and did she have any idea where she was well. She told them that they went to Texas, and so it could police decided. They need to go to Texas two and they. Past and Amanda returning to North Carolina without knowing they were passing while they were on their way out to Texas when police to finally get around to looking at the residents to former residence of Amanda and Grant. What is the one thing that is tail tail and they notice immediately. Ann is of interest. The bathroom in the hallway. Smells of cleaning materials. It is

In Spain and immaculate as it was never used, there are no rogs there now so there's no shower curtain. There's nothing in there. Hardly at all. It's been completely cleaned out. They ask Shay about that bathroom and she said. Well, that's the one. The little boys use, that's the one, that's always full of their bath toys. And yet there was nothing in there. It had all been moved to the other bathroom, an that didn't make a whole lot of sense and she she didn't stand, and of course, at that point in time the police did know what to make of it.

It was also the bleach stand at the front door, which was of interest to the police as well sh. Yes, it was a very large each day, each day, one, the corporate white by the front door just to for it turned to tile and it was very large and it was uh all right, very unexpected in that spot, because it's not a spot, where you would normally think that you'd even have bleach, I mean yeah, you might use it in the bathroom at the laundry room or the kitchen, but not by the front door. So that was very sick. Vicious right away and

Shay had said when she came in the house it smelled like bleach and fat did it make any sense to her because bleach movies- gave her in her mother such horrible headaches. So it didn't make sense. Their mother was cleaning with their mother, never cleaned with bleach, so it with every piece of information the police got. It became more and more suspicious now on their trip, the go to see Manda sister, and so it's Karen Berry- and this is the most fascinating part of this story. It really is incredible. Some of the dialogue in this and again, of course, with Miami your nation on, others will be reading and and country

Hang up the same images so tell us about the meeting with her sister and the kinds of questions that they are asking again innocent questions to some, but the kinds of questions are asking of the sister and her son- and I guess, is a couple son so tell us yeah. She has a couple of ground she's, a couple grown sons, and Amanda Grant or asking them. I said so, One of the boys has a business of removing feral hogs from people's property. Yes, in hogs will eat human remains, and then they have a long conversation about that and then they get to war there alligators in oyster creek and won't alligators,

Eat human remains and the boys sort of thought of these are just city, people that don't know anything. You know grants just a city boy- and he doesn't know about this and grant also asked him back on shark fishing. And and Dan they want to know about in the deep holes on the property and and they ask about the septic tank and they ask about the well in all sorts of strange things and and CORE Kieran. This is her little sis much younger sister, and she can't quite rap her mom find around what I.

What is going on and what might be happening. I think she's had the red flags waved in her face, but she's just torn. I mean this is her sister. Her sister couldn't be. Meaning. What she was saying is is what she's thinking, but she was getting increasingly uncomfortable, can being there and then there was the fact that the boys were with them and both of the mentioned that they had been told. They can't take the boys out of the state and here with the boys, and it was it- was getting increasingly uncomfortable on She basically just was so relieved when they finally left soon after they.

If the police show up- and that's when sorry go ahead with the thing is, we've skipped over a little bit is what exactly lower did or apart me, Amanda did say to her sister. What question was asked and what did she tell her sister, very, very, very important. So what was actually said to her sister and what was the circumstances. She Sheetz Karen finally asked what the heck is going on, a Amanda said: I hurt Laura. I hurt her bad. Hearing didn't really want to know anything more and

Amanda and Grant took the family's boat out on to Creek at night late late at night and then returned and Karen knew something really bad was happening, but she did really know what and she didn't want to believe. What are common sense was telling her and it wasn't till the Pooh

Lee Scott there that she finally admitted to herself and to them that she thought Laura was probably there in the place. They should look it in the creek. She also said to Laura partly that Amanda had said to her or pardon me that Karen had said to her: are you just covering for grant and she nodded her head? Yes, which is yeah important? She did she did, but the question is was Amanda telling her sister she was covering for grant in order to to tell her sister, which you wanted to hear or because it was the truth. That was the big question.

Like you say, police are there shortly after. This is not much of a trail here. If this is a master plan, she says, can I a first, and then she tells him everything that she knows, she's, just a very honest, person doesn't want to be burdened with this thing at all, So now how do police proceed once they have this information? Well, they put send divers into the creek and they even have a man the gun in a boat in case alligators approach, but it turned out the biggest problem that the divers had were with the lily pads that were covering a big portion of the surface of creek across the street and they had to keep pushing them aside. All the time in the water was deep and

dark eyes so dark that they were literally doing like snow. Wait. The snow angel motions on the bottom of the creek to try to find all body parts. They were mostly hoping to find her for it and she had a cat two one that would identify her quickly, but they never did find and yours is see they did find all leg part they did find body parts and then ultimately, they found Lawrence had they also Karen and also grab the machine. Eddie that grant had and secured it put it wrapped it with a rag and put it in the garage and kept some other things that at least that the police had did, what their evidentiary value were, but they grabbed

over one hundred items and of course they were looking at autopsy to confirm that these parts of a torso actually were Laura, actor Ackerman Agrasen cell. So Now so how do Amanda and grant what they do in the under these circumstances, what happens? The return to Kingston and they were at grants, parents home when the police came and pick them up, and the police question them, and

charge them with Laura's murder as soon as they knew they had Laura's body, and then it got excessively weird Becaus Grant claimed. All he was doing was protecting his wife because his wife had gotten into a fight with Laura and cause her to fall and hit her head and open. Amanda was saying she did. Even know that Laura was dead until she arrived in Texas that she didn't know. Laura's body was sitting in her guest bathroom for a couple of days while disable going about normal family life so to speak, She was there alone. She never looked in that area.

Room she never checked anything out. She was simple living here according to her numbers that seem to hang together too. Well, that's a little too hard to believe that there could be a body in your bathroom and it was cut up into pieces. It's important to colors and you had no idea that it was. There They separate at first. There are jointly charged and of course he wants to put blame on her, and so are separated, and so he goes first in his trial is first now tell us again: it's you know it's I find fascinating about the is that there is some really good Laura ring going on here when, in the

first trial with grant the address to the jury from the defense is quite good. It's quite convincing, and yet that you get the prosecution's address to the jury and it is even better but very very interesting- because this really explains first degree, murder charge, the malice, premeditation, planning and deliberation, and really this is the crux of this case is- is ends up. Being quite a circumstantial case really. Despite all this view-

ical evidence. So let's talk about what the defense for Grant Hayes is: what is their theory? What do they try to put across to the jury? Tell us a little bit about that. They are trying to can be trying to convince the jury that yes Grant was guilty, those of the body, but he did it on relate to protect his wife, his family. He all he had nothing to do with Laura's death. He was. He was out of the room when the the fight started. He didn't know what was going on. He came in and Laura was on the floor, and the defense was adamant that this is just demand protecting his wife.

The prosecution, on the other hand, had not only The evidence of the emails and text messages that Laura had saved, but they also had lorries journal about it and they had the history between them and how badly that had gone. And they also had the report of the psychologist, who said that grant in all likelihood had a personality disorder and he needed to be seeing a psychiatrist to address that issue and identify which personnel the disorder it was with his antisocial or borderline or or whatever, and.

All. That was very damning information that was presented by the psychologist and can to me one of the things that was most chilling in that courtroom, Was when they played this song had written about Laura called broomstick rider And it was a very hate filled Sloan about threatening to kill her and. It really showed where his heart was, and the whole time that song was playing in the jury was listening to that Song Grant was sitting there at the defense table, just be bopping his

head to the music like he was really enjoying listening to that hate filled invective there with the lyrics of his songs. Yes,. Yes now. What was really important to, and really part of, his not so defendable defense is that Supposedly this woman, that was always fighting for custody for children that love their children more than anything, went over to his home, because he she was going to sign? A document now tell us about the details of this document, because again, this is very, very important. In this case there was a document that was Found in his apartment that was signed by Laura and and they did have handwriting specialists- verify that it was Laura's. Handwriting

where she agreed to give up custody of the boys in exchange for twenty five thousand dollars. It said that she would be able to see the boys at with the permission of Grant Hayes. Now. The number one great advantage no longer had any money said they didn't have twenty five thousand dollars. The other thing is: is that no one? No one in news, Laura believed that she would take and give up custody for any sum of money, and he, but she,

My theory on the case which he used to prosecution tends to believe too, is that there was some cool were in use at night was the Knicks they found on one of her neck turns because that knife was held to rich road, possibly. And why did she seem to have received, fatal blow right there with that bleach stain was by the door. I think that what happened was that Laura did what she had to do at that moment. Couldn't resist the temptation before she left that apartment a free, reminding them that she had a tape recorder and she had everything that was said that night

and everything that happened recorded on that tape. Interesting and that's why she died right then, and there now we He won't have time to go through the entire trial at all, but suffice to say that there was two separate trials, both pointing fingers at each. We're trying to claim that they weren't the murderer. They were just a part of the disposal of this woman with Amanda, having of, is claiming to have much less of a role and really really before a out of it where she didn't know this, since you didn't know that you didn't look here, she didn't look that way. She had no idea, and so it seems quite implausible, basically his trial. Again, we just talked about his demeanor, where he he

enjoying listening to his his murderous lyrics in his his tune, which seem to be eerily in that's why they were admitted into the trial that they had some relation to his character and his feelings for his wife. Laura so tell us about the outcome of the first trial, and then I guess importantly, what happens with the Amanda's trial.

Grant was found guilty of first degree murder, and he was given life without parole. He has since gone to a Ross dress and lost Amanda. On the other hand, are the defense did manage to put some doubt in jurors' minds about how much she was involved and she was convicted of second degree murder and she will probably get out of prison after serving fourteen years interesting. I think that the prosecution no was really, I think they were of do you know

dead, set on having them both convicted of murder, and I think, given the limitations that the case presented for them that they still did exceedingly well, but it seemed that the prosecution really was if they really have to. Focus on anyone. They really wanted to make sure that grant Hayes really went. For this murder, didn't it. Yes, they and I do think that they will probably equally complicit and I'll be cause of the way everything was carried out and the fact that Amanda, while great without shopping,

in things was home alone and could have called the police and didn't shoes aware of what was going on and she was an active participant in what was going on. So I think she got off easy easier than she definitely deserved, but at least to um. She have to pay a price and Amanda A will, spend some of what it could have been the best years of her life behind bars, and there is some justice for Laura Ackerson Patsy Grants. Our pop army, patchy Hayes, had some letters from Amanda again, you talked about the error of Amanda And- and we talked about the plausibility of her story in her complicit's complacency in this murder

Tell she appeared in demand trial. Patsy Hayes had letters that Amanda had written to her, though, she could convey some of that letter to grant in prison. So what was the contents of those letters She was sending messages of love through through Patsy to grant, because two people sitting in jail I cannot write to each other when they are codefendants, so to speak and So she was constantly talk about how much love grant now. She would see him making suggestions. To him about meditating and things of that nature to keep his head on straight and extremely supportive messages of that

If she hadn't known what he was up to every step of the way, it's hard to believe that she would have Been that way I mean if she was totally innocent, surely should have been outraged and what he'd gotten her into? But there was no signs of that. None at all. You don't really point the finger, but it's nice that you show and not tell

She asked the same questions as grant us. She wants to know both the Gators in the eating of the bodies, and so these are. These are beyond the realm of questions. You would ask under any kind of circumstances regardless aren't they yeah and she's there for the little walk around the property trying to find a place to dispose of the body like the septic tank, and you know how? How can you do something like that to your own sister? How can you rap her in something like this and put her in such a horrible horrible position, and no one wants to get up on the witness, stand and testify against his sister and say such horrible things Karen had to do that, because she No, it was the right thing and she

didn't want to be there. She didn't want to be in that courtroom. She didn't want any part you will, but a man end did that to her and put her there and and. Compromise things with her own daughter, shade too, it it's just unbelievable. The callousness better. And you shared to everyone around her who cared about her at one time, but we also have to remember the king of all manipulators. Is this grant person who had a folder on his computer and call Laura Whole and diminishing her role, even though she was the mother of these children, he made the choice to be with her. It just seems that when he found someone else to use, then these person

This person was trashed and he sucked all the money out of Amanda and just in time to get her into. You know a life in prison, so this person is really and and no loyalty towards it seems anybody any and yet and the same time he's been charismatic enough to con every

single one of these people and their loyalty is incredible if you really think about it, yes and draw, which is the other? The other side of this to remember, she is what she said. That's a man whose daughter Shea said every thought. He said everybody points to green. It says he's the master manipulator, but what they're forgetting is that and Amanda Grant met his match. She was every bit to manipulator that he bought well so He isn't in finished with his appeal process. Is how close did you come? Did you make any effort? What was their response? Was there any did you reach either one of these for any kind of interview,

and what was your response? Yeah? Well, you know what, when I was working on, the book Grant had an appeal coming up, so he certainly did not want to talk to me and Amanda. I got no response. Your response. I didn't even get a call back from her turn each so yeah. Eighty eight a lot of times. He just can't get through those barriers. Very interesting too that the the lawyer friends, Oksana and she's Siobhan and Heidi really prominent in these trials and helped as much as they could and offered as much as they could and very uh good and reliable witnesses when they were called upon what they? Yes, they were, and it has got to be such a horrible whore.

To all. To not only lose your friend but to have to get up there in in the, courtroom not once but twice to really live all of this misery and grief. I can you know its the losses, horrific enough for you once that happens, you you hope to try to heal from it that these women he couldn't. He couldn't do that. Do you have time time to do that. It things just kept moving and moving and they had to be there to testify a grants trial. They had to test spider man is trial and

they. They really paid a price of friendship and they stayed with their friend Laura to the bitter end for as long as it took now. What about Patsy Hayes and her husband? What what was their position through this? Are they still loyal to their son, and then you can also Tell us where the two boys and, of course, the lily who was the offspring of the child, from their marriage, Grant and Amanda tell us where those children aren't who's taking care of them? I get to three. Children are all together with. Grant senior and all and Patsy Hayes they're raising those three children- and you know their grandparents

This is a tough road to hoe for them, an on top of that they lossed their day care center, because once the news of this car I'm spread out. No one wanted to bring their children there anymore. It didn't no longer felt like a safe place, so they lost but their livelihood. They lost their son And now there raising a whole mother family and it's like they're starting all over again incredible. And you know, is there any talk about what has happened with the boys and pat or anything. Is there any other stories of the follow up? I don't how big was this story in the media and was there sort of a a diminished interest once this? The trial was finished, tell us a little bit about how important a bigger story. This was in the media,

Are the story was huge, particularly regionally? There was a lot of coverage of it. There was also a lot of coverage up in Michigan, where Laurel was originally from and out in Houston, where the bodies were dropped e it was, it was big news, but once the trials would treated it sort of faded out of the limelight as those things usually do and. The Shay who Who knew, grant little Grant an, gentle very well and had taken care of them on multiple occasions she is living out w now, but she she is the half sister of Lily and she takes that extremely seer.

Usually as your responsibility, and she always makes it out for the joint summer Birthday party at three children have kind of close. Together birthdays in- and they all have one big party for all three of them- and she is always there for that. She wants. Continue to have a major role in little ITALY's life, and I think more power to easy Lily has glossed lost both of her parents to incarceration, and it is. Yeah, at least for now is orphaned as the two little boys are. So it's good that she has her half sister in the picture which fast

anything about your book. Two is that normally we have one trial and sometimes we plea agreements and all we have to flow bowl full blown trials here and the thing that normally doesn't happen is the defendant. Taking this and then with the case of Amanda, she does take the stand, makes for some very riveting and interesting reading, because of course, there's always something trotted out, looked through the defense through your own lawyer and then able bodied prosecutor can really savage that Flimsy or yes, the pride in order who say they could breed yeah. The prosecutor was amazing, I mean Amanda. Not up there with her sweet, little girlish four ways and was talking sweet we gotta breath, listen and

telling the story of her victimization by Grant SH and the prosecutor got up there and she just was like a terrier. She wouldn't let go and finally, Amanda snapped and snapped at her and showed her true name sure on that witness stand, and it was, it was. Pretty amazing cross examination and very revealing not absolutely. Yes, the you've painted a very interesting portraits and very very vivid trail of these two characters, especially well annelore as well, Laura and Grant Amanda, and this confluence of of

And and the daughter and the friends that the loyal friends and this two parallels to people on the same trajectory people that were trying Laura was desperately trying to rebuild her life and go in a completely different direction, and these children were just like a tug of war between this cycle path and his desires and Laura and came to a tragic end very incredible story. I want to thank you very much time. And for coming on and talking about, your latest bitter remains for those I want to contact you or see your other work. Do you have a web, site that you might direct them to, and then you do Facebook as well. Yes, I'm on Facebook and I'm also or I have a website which is Diane, fanning dot com. She

and I've got sample chapters of my works on there. All fourteen of my true crimes and and ten of my novels and they can take a sample of there and read about each one of those books. Yeah. That's. Fantastic den, and thank you again for coming on and uh for always like always a great interview and as always a fantastic book data remains. I want to thank you very much for coming on and I know I'll be hearing from you again soon, because you're very, very prolific, author, so sure you got something in the works right now as we speak, I'm a certainly dj and I wouldn't let you down absolutely.

Well. Thank you Dan and hope to hear from you again soon. You have a great evening and thank you. Thank you. Dan contact good night. And now I found from Geico Motorcycle it took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online Speed the cheetah would the cheetah and learn your animal isn't the cheetah, but the far is appealing blobfish. Come on to add insult to injury. You could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. Is you

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