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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime. History and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, family of three tied up each the gun to their head, Where's, the money where's, the flip and money, one of the intruders yelled a petrified dot. Tortured and forced to listen to their parents being shot in cold blood.

I heard shots like pop. She told the nine one one operator somebody broke into our home. Please I need help. Was this home invasion or something else more sinister, a dead betrayal, the real life horror story that happened inside the PAN Family home show up there, normally peaceful, upscale Toronto neighborhood. The pay friends were an example of an immigrant family hand in his wife. Big pine fled from Vietnam to Canada. After US vietnamese war to find a better life. Their daughter Jennifer was an olympic caliber figure Skater award, pianist straight. A student. The pan work their way up in this rags to his story now living in a beautiful home with plug three cars in the driveway. Was it these expensive items it lured three in tutors, with guns into their home on the night of November eighth, two thousand and ten.

Find out what really happened when season true crime reporter in Arthur Allen are worn, takes you through details as and fold in this book of a day really betrayal, with featuring during the seating, is deadly betrayal. The true story of John for Penn daughter from Hell with my special guest journalist and author and podcaster Allah in our worn. Welcome back to the programmer Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview Allen. Are worn thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure. Thank you. It's always a pleasure to have you and the prolific Allen are worn. Let's get right to this. How did you come into position? Why did you pick this story? The trail? What was it about this? Just from looking at it? Initially that into

you do and made you want to write a book deadly betrayal, hi, hi yeah, you know it was just about the the amount of pup lies that she had told to her parents that intrigued me and how she got away with it for years and years, and so that brought me into the case then I ate I worked on it for quite awhile actually and then left it for awhile and came back to it. It is sort of bugging me there are so many different details. I wanted to know more about so you know just sort of kept drawing me in the you talk about, and if I got these pronunciations, I just pronounced Jennifer's mother's name. If it's wrong, let me know the vietnamese names and I'm

get the pronunciation wrong, but you talk about Huey Handpan. Her father was born and edge it in Vietnam during the war with the US. And in college he took tool and die, and diesel mechanics. And then he also met when he came to Scarborough suburb of ran off for those people who don't know in nineteen. Seventy nine do you say or seventy four uh. He spoke no English and had no money. Then he met his wife so get from there where he meets his wife and where they end up working and tell us a little bit about their family and the addition of Jennifer a little bit about who they were and there life in just well. Who who Vetrano came from you're right he was studied in in in Vietnam and you don't they both do?

Then they had met once before, but. And there was no relationship between them and he chose used to come to Scarborough, as that was one of the places they They were relocating to this was kind of a an exodus from Vietnam I don't know. If people realize there were probably two million people in all that had to flee. From Vietnam, after the war and Canada took cool. Think in total ended up being close to three hundred thousand eventually, and so he went to where he was sent basically and so did, and they had met up and it didn't take long before they. You know, maybe because they were isolated,

Within their own little section of town and speaking their own language and kind of being refugees, but they got really close really fast and beak, which was who became his wife came from Vietnam as well, and they both go to job. In a manufacturing for car car parts- and it was Magna international and and actually she was on the assembly line, so she was working assembly line with the parts he had a little bit more education was moved further into the company. Then she did. You talk about their life was no modest, that their wages, weren't very good and probably was expensive to live anywhere in Toronto, regardless of what year you're talking about, but they

we had children and Jennifer was born June of six and later an eighty, nine her she had a brother named Felix. So the two siblings tell me about what basically they were able to do it despite these wages and and really what was the philosophy? How did the household get run? Who was boss and how what was the attitude and environment like in which Jennifer grew up in well. Definitely, the father was the boss and was very. I don't want to say the word controlling, but it was very structured and it was struck to the way of the whole fam. They have to work to achieve something, and his priority was to have his first born achieved. The most.

They want it the life to go further and further, so they want their kids to form and have a better opportunity than what they did and it was very concerning so every dollar they made they kept. They spent nothing on anything, frivolous everything was essential, and that was it and that's how they lived, and even after having the two kids and both working full time, it didn't take him long to move up into a better neighborhood I and a nicer home and actually cars that were respectable. You know the respectability of working hard and making enough money to have a decent life was very important and there's some analysis on them: the parents as being tiger parents in the fact that every

have to be laid out structured and you spent every waking hour to achieve so? There was no. It wasn't, they didn't, have a relaxing social atmosphere that a lot of traditional canadian families would it just didn't, go on. You talk about Jennifer's early interests, well that they do better to. You also say that the interest that she had bay Quickly, where formula did or I'd thought of by her father, so the piano lessons anf you're skating and she excelled in both you say and ended. So did an ancient martial art called the swimming but not like. We would think. And right away it before we

we're talking about elementary school, not anywhere later than this were talking before grade eight. She already had some anxiety about performance and either weather sport or academic performance. Didn't she yeah and to be a little more sp. Pacific. Her dad wanted her to only be in Compton Oceans where she would win an award for her performance. He didn't want her in any think of a group setting there- isn't group sports or no team of anything, Everything was individually granted. So if it was something like swimming, she could win skating, she can win. She can be honored for herself, just as in her schooling,

and he wanted her to have an all around but yeah. I guess education in everything that he could there was. There was time to do everything and She felt very overwhelmed and there's a couple of aspects to that. One big thing was not only the pressure from the parents and what family they did have there, but in the canadian social climate she felt very isolated for the young years and was not close to other people, and I think at first she felt the press to achieve really well was the only way she could kind of. I don't know, make friends or become popular or become worthwhile. Maybe. And so there was a lot of pressure on her and she didn't have any

but he really to to talk to and in that same same sort of and and nobody else is going through this in that community. You talk about. Her feeling, much different and again isolated because, Policy of their father had a policy or parents had a policy of her, not wearing makeup, so she wasn't. Interested or focused on the things that maybe girls would at a certain age and that age, The hair and makeup and clothing and status- and and so she didn't have that, so she also didn't partake in birthday parties or sleepovers, so it was really sorry. Understanding. That's quite unusual and her brother. Yet because he wasn't the just born, it was a little more relaxed and then so. She felt unusual pressure. And then you talk about that by eighty eight when she doesn't win the event,

get the valid valedictorian at graduation and she didn't get any awards should really felt like a failure, and you talk about soon app she's, using her skills to fool her father about her school grades. Tell us about that. Yeah yeah she started she didn't achieve that. She felt like she really disappointed her father and and what happened in cases like that. Is he harder on her? He got tougher on her, so things, were not going to get easier. She had to work harder. You know no matter what and so to take the pressure off. I guess she decided to start time making her grades look better than they were. So you know, with photo copier in with white out and a few other key elements. She started faking report cards

and giving them to her parents, so you know I sent it because she started to drop to seize. You know c, plus and stuff like that and school, and if that was not good enough, he won today's. So he She would give herself a's and she would hand it to him and the very first time I guess she was pretty terrified waiting for his response and he fell for it. He believed it and he was pleased with the grades you know- and I have to mention what her brother Felix being younger. She also had the pressure of when he was failing. It was her responsibility to help him achieve what he needed to so it. What it is, the father would not look at Felix. He would look at her. What what can you do to make him better? It's it's! It was almost like it was her job to not only give herself top marks and performances, but to me

sure he did as well and- and he was not- he was not really that goal orientated. So you sort of have this I'm not really caring, so much and her being under the pressure to get his act together. It was sort of an unusual situation and I think it was really even harder on her so again whether it was take to take the pro sure off of her by lying about her grades or not, I'm not sure what drew her to that. She meets while she's in school someone that's important to the story and I'll. Let you take the last name and pronounce it. But it's Adrian. She meets in in the music class, and so this Adrian is becomes important later, but she had a little bit of a change for this isolated person in school.

That she has an affinity because she, you say, she's, quite a good piano player and the musician. So she does find some friendship and connection with people via this music class og. Yeah yeah, now it what the the if he, if you've, never been into with the music arts department, are quite often there's this. There are four years and it's meant for people in music meant for people in theater and it's kind of a place where people would practice their craft or work on their homework. And so it's all art student and for some reason she started hanging there because she felt a little bit safer there and she felt less judged because she was always wearing a sweater And no makeup and was very dressed down. She wasn't anything,

Rest up, she was no no popular kids, but she felt she could sit in the foyer and hang out and she started becoming friends with a few people in there and that one was Adrian and cats and they they kind of had a hit it off really well, and almost we call it dating it's kind of on the edge there's a lot of different stories about their relationship in the first first year, and I kind of take it that they were almost best friends. But not you know, I want to say dating and that's sort of how it's presented, but I get a feeling that on her point. It was never going to be a dating relationship right.

You know yeah, you talk about it at the sorry. Go ahead! No, I was gonna say it was just. He seemed to like her better than she liked him as in right wanting to go further in the situation. The thing is, though, what was important was that he did get a chance, meet her parents and her parents liked him. You seem to be a good student and he wanted to be an engineer and he had his own car and he seemed to be welcome at the Penn home, and you said, but despite this, like you say, maybe the attention wasn't the same. She wasn't as interested as he was and within, Six months she had met a new boy, who's, also a musician and me in the bedroom as well, Daniel Wong so post about their early relationship, an why this relation ship was and his background his ethnic background. So they get some

and why they kept this relationship secret. In the beginning,. Yeah Daniel Wong was in there as well, but he was more of the character. He was the guy that was always playing jokes, always laughing and loud and always fooling around, and he was just the Joker and she never took him serious and never paid attention to him and when they it was when they went on the field trip the band to Austria to Salsburgh. That on one of their band trips, she had an asthma attack and he kind of come to her rescue and held her and doctor breeze, and all this and paid incredible amount of attention to her and her not having any sort of attention in her life up to them. Not like this not careful attention that she sort of fell for him almost immediately.

She thought he was just an amazing caring person and she started thinking about him all the time dreaming about him and- and it didn't take long when they got back home before she started, seeing him and dating him becoming too. You know his his girlfriend. But that that I didn't it didn't go well when she brought him home, the parents didn't like him at all. You know there's different reasons for that. One was his heritage being mixed chinese and Philippine, which Father thought they were. I servant class and they were not in the same position. Has they that passed the pants would be so he didn't like that. He also didn't like that. The boy was not respectful,

he didn't have a good job, and originally he wasn't supposed to be known, but Daniel Long have been arrested for selling pot, and so we had a record and later we found out that Felix Jennifer's brother had told their father this. So that was another thing that her father knew. Even though they know Dennis Daniel didn't know this they just didn't know why he was. The father was just so rude to them and to him and didn't want him around the house anymore. So that became where they have to care to keep it a secret. Then, because you know that dad was not going to accept him. So she's begins she's already doing like Into your parents about her and forging her report cards.

Now we're talking about her getting up to the age where she can go to college and and also this relationship, like you say she he does get to meet the parents and they are definitely said to her you're, not see this guy. We don't want this guy is it wasn't a and it was a sing, a demand of her. So how does she go about working around that and you talk about also that they get separated a little bit. So how do we school grades in actuality, never mind what she does and gives to her father? What are the her grades like during this time? Well, they they couldn't what they could get worse, but now much they were. They were really. She was failing. Classes now see was kind of the highest marks he would get and she was not going to graduate so

school said you're not going to graduate. So she made a fake report card again. She also made a fake diploma and also she even faked her graduation and even the pictures in the whole, the whole nine yards. She just pulled the whole

all over Paris vice like she thought she they believed she had graduated and, and she went to grad and the whole works. So in their mind that she's doing great, even though she hadn't and instead she in her defense, said that she was going to go back and graduate take courses and finish school. She just would do it later and not tell our parents, so they wouldn't know so is she is she was justifying it that way, and then she even said that she got him at the? U of T University of Toronto and if you haven't, because he hadn't even graduated and she started to

go five days a week and even at times quite often her mother would driver so when she would just sit in the library and she would just to study and in fact a lot of time. She would write out all of these things that reports that she said that she had got from her professors like she's attending, so she was doing tons of work to show our parents that he was attending the she was just in the library, and this is kind of where she started staying at Daniel's place, because then she TED said to her mother look is too much driving all this way back and forth five days a week. She wants to stay with her girlfriend who had an apartment by the university and what she would really be doing is staying at Daniel Long spikes for those nights and that they were keeping it secret, but it is so so that's how much she was. She was so involved in lying

and covering up it just kept getting worse and worse and she had more and more lies it just I guess it really. She went too far. It got out of control. Well, her mother beak sees her one time, I'm with Danny so again and freaks out and says I can't keep this from your father? So they make a further demand. I mean why talked about a demand, but there are demands in man so tell us about this exchange and the result yeah

yeah absolutely yeah when she saw them. She actually called the girlfriend of supposed to be it have the apartment and she realized that she'd been lying, that you know this whole time, and so she did go home and tell her husband. So you know when she came back, the father had grounded her taken away or car her phone, all computer access yeah, it just take it. He just like closed everything down on her and and she guaranteed. She would never speak to Daniel Long again and never see them again, and it was a mistake and she didn't mean to and just that whole thing and he accepted it, but it was going to become very strict anytime. She had taken the car gone anywhere. He wants to see the mileage. You want to watch everything she did, they all had to be tracked. There was no more relying on her to tell him thanks, so that was the first break down between the two, but I had big major break down, but she still pretended to attend university. In fact, even graduated from university and give him dot diploma fate, stating that she graduated and she had and then she even faked a job that she had gone

in a children's hospital, and so so she just kept answering with lights and more cover up that. You know she never really told him the truth. She would have a life for him. The thing is they get to the point where she He's telling them she works at Walmart, but they're suspicious and they're asking for for a pay stub, so she takes in the giving her a ride there and they're hanging around and she hangs around another department till they leave so there suspicious and then she because she tells these half true, even when she admits everything. It's only half of the admission and the EVA worst part is that he has to tell him. While I wasn't here, I didn't go to Reiersen I'd she'd and tell him at any point that she

still didn't graduate. So there's lots of lies left that he still doesn't seem to but as the more he does, he just seems. I cannot trust this girl whatsoever. Does it yeah yeah yeah, because that first job at the children's hospital is when they found out? She wasn't working there at that when she said she got the job at Walmart in the pharmacy.

The the father started getting suspicious on that one, because she didn't have any. She wasn't going to work in in work clothes. You know she would just leave and not be dressed up for work and she didn't have a fine in card and she didn't have she just didn't it. He. He just didn't trust that that's what she was doing, so that's why they were starting to watch her when she go to work and trying to see. If that's what she was doing so then he starts asking for the pay stubs and she actually faked the pay stubs at first and got away with it. But what happened was that he wanted to look at her bank account to see if the money was being deposited by the by the job by Walmart so EAST, when he started going that way, she couldn't, but she couldn't fake, that she couldn't lie about that, and so she would have to come clean and tell us it's a famous fast when she tells him about the university. So that's when he got down to the big,

Demand of your going to do nothing, but you know, study and get your schooling and get a real job, and it just it just wasn't. You know it wasn't going to happen. She was just going to keep on lying and faking her way through. He did force her to write a farewell letter. Daniel, I guess online. While he watched. So then he again the shit apply to college as a lab tech. She took it. He always wanted her to be a doctor. She had no car or stay home, like you say, go to school Ann and that relationship became distant and he she found out. He had another girlfriend and then she start going out, didn't she and Beyonce into one of our old friends from school, so what's your? What

behavior like now and who does she meet and what she started talking about, what unit C behavior was kind of a little bit sketchy because you she found out about Daniel dating this other girl, I believe, was Kimberly, and so she was pretty upset about this, and this is when I've I've alluded to it. But there's there's no evidence of this, but he started getting. You know, taxes and phone calls, and so did this Kimberly that were kind of off a little. You know out threats. Most of the threats returned to work toward her herself, as in Jennifer's going to get. You know, something's going to happen to our and really off car phone calls.

And you can guess it somehow related to her, you know, and so she yeah she actually met. Hank started hanging out in the Pool Hall where Daniel was selling drugs and she tried to to watch it, keep an eye on see what he was doing and they're almost like stalking and yes, met a friend and, and the big thing with the friend was she ended up getting referred to his roommate, who, whose name was Ray and the reason was because she wanted to hire someone to kill her parents and Rick said he could he could fix her up

and take care of it any any met with her a couple of times and once was that a coffee, shop, yeah and and the reason I say that it was because there was witnesses to it and it was important. She actually gave him money and it kind of made the deal, but Rick had no intention of following through so he never followed through. He never made he he took her money and then they can order and then moved so she couldn't find him for awhile. So so, in a way she got it got ripped off and that that that really that really really bothered her. So she does what regarding daniel- and you talked about these- calls that they were all experiencing to and

What is some of the messages contained in terms of what they're trying to convey to the people on the phone. Well, it seems like a lot of the messages were aimed Jennifer was going to get hurt or Kimberly that the new girlfriend are, or they were kind of rude a lot of them, but then why to go to a movie with her or why would you do that with her? They were. They were all, so it was all about the three of them all the conversations, all the threats and all the routes sort of stuff and it started getting pretty extreme to there was times when that it would it would there would be a bang and- and you know, she's, gonna die and bang and- and that is really weird stuff, and that sort of

surprised me that he never took it more serious, yeah right yeah I mean like he never called the cops or he never. He never got to get any further than just them. If you know what I'm saying so a hit that so that kind of bothers me in the sense of you know 'cause if you're getting calls about your ex girlfriend about your new girlfriend or about you and about murdering and dying and killing, and really rude things going on for the three of you. You know it's somebody involved, it's one of you, three somebody something's going on and if he was really feeling it was threatening or real like he suggested later, I would think should have gone to the cops but you're saying that maybe this is maybe something he came to in terms of just for purposes later.

You say they are true, I I think there was more to it.

I think what was happening was there was more to the conversation. I don't think she was just calling and hanging out bird calling and threatening. I think she was calling him and he was knowing it was her and then she would give him the spiel at the end they would fight, and I think it was his way of staying in contact with her. If that was the only time he could be in contact with that, there's more to that relationship is much more complex than it seems, but but because he didn't act like a person that was being stalked or being threatened or having his girlfriend threatened or acts, and he didn't act like that. He just would keep up the conversations and he would and when he talked about them later to the police that will almost sounded like he tried to make it sound house how scary it was and how he thought something was going to happen in a few times even thought something did happen to Jennifer, but he never acted on

So that doesn't make sense could be really thought that he would have done something about it. You talk about now that she's spoken to someone else about her plans for murder that she talks to Daniel now about this, but it hasn't. Change of plan from the original, and that means he doesn't want them shot At least that's what she thinks might not be the best way to go. What do they talk about? What to use for her justification. Why she tell Daniel. Obviously he knows what her parents are like, but tell us about that. Conversations you begins to have with Daniel. Well, she started to.

You know they started getting closer again from these phone calls. That's what I mean, I think, there's more to them, 'cause all of a sudden. They start seeing each other again and meeting each other and they start becoming a couple again and then then then she mentions about how she had talked to Rick and how he had ripped her off and how she. She was, she was never going to be free and to and ends at first she was playing the old. If you want to kill herself or she thought. Maybe you know she should die and she was kind of trying to make him feel sorry, and then she started when she told him about the rip off planets to

then she started kind of grooming him in a way of of something happening to our to our parents, and it is so she could be free and that and then she would get into the eventually groom a man to hiring people to want to do this in on, and she told she secretly. According to Dan,

she was telling him wild stories. You know, like things work a year, people were following her around and that a man tried to kidnap her and and someone out so had to admit it. And then she even told them that I gang of Asian there are men or boys, had raped her in her bedroom and have been waiting for when she you know when she was out running for dog, and she came back in and stuff like that, and she had to go to the hospital and the police were notified and- and she just had all the stories.

But again, this is what we hear from Daniel after the fact and if you were written in there but I have to I have to say I still don't know that I trust what how Daniel claims it to be, because again he he he just did nothing like. I I did that just seems really weird to me. If, if, if your girlfriend call soon tells you that you have to go to the hospital and she. Call the police and she was raped in her bedroom by five gang members? Wouldn't you be right there or would you be involved in it? He didn't act like it mattered, so I really question that story. Does he act like maybe he doesn't believe it she's used to lying and so

she's used in lying, but you know we have to take it two ways either she was you know the weird phone calls and he was dating the other girl up to the weird happenings being followed and then eventually being raped and getting weird mail. And you know in all this weird stuff. She was gone

On either that was all true and he was totally shocked, but he just didn't care or he just thought. Yes, it's just dashes Jennifer. She writes all the time, but it still seems kind of. I don't know if there's something strange about this relationship that I can't put a panel on, because I still think with all of these flights getting so extreme, he would distance himself from someone like that, wouldn't be getting closer like if he really thought she was lying about the rate and I and all the things she come up with the all the stories he wouldn't be trying to get closer to work and be involved with their. I think he would want to distance himself, and if it was just a story, then it's just a story so.

Let's talk about the fateful evening because there's different accounts of it because of course, as you will explain, what's Putting in the the home itself, people in the different parts of the home that evening tell us what happens that day. And then tell us what happens that Eve where the family is, will say it wrong, dinner time and then go from there and then tell us what happens. And then we can see- and you can tell us about how police are called. Later nine one one from Jennifer and then her account to police. Tell us yeah! Well, the key. The key thing that evening was When Jennifer and her mother came home and we're planning dinner

and then her father came home from work, then have to go to home depot, so the two of them ate dinner for for the father. Basically, the father come home, would eat and then would go. Read his newspaper at this time. They would clean up the dishes and then Jennifer's mother went to her dance lessons. I think she was in some sort of dance class, so she took off to that, and so that's the basic premise of it so daughters up in a room studying supposedly father's down in the front room living room, reading his paper and mothers out at the class, the dance school. So everything was going normal, and then we do know that Jennifer had her friends couple of friends come over, and what my tv with her downstairs and then

eventually leave. We we hear different stories, but the key part two. It is the mud. Comes home to leave around nine nine hundred and thirty ish and yeah? I guess soaks her feet out in the front room from after the class And so from there we hear that swear. It changes, you know, Jennifer apparently, snuck downstairs, unlocked the front door, went back up stairs and they got the text later that they know they were communicating by text and sold. The man just showed up and three hires, plus your boyfriend. Did you want, and so from there what what happened to

exactly we have different different accounts and it would seem that the mother was forced upstairs to the father's room where they went in and they grabbed him. Feed him took some money from one of their drawers, took them downstairs, put them on their knees and then Jennifer's her own claim was that They came down the hall to her room, grabbed her had her some of her money and that she had been saving give to them and then they tighter out. And then they took her downstairs again and then asked to fight. So more money did a lot of swearing, Swearingen,

screaming and then took both parents down to the basement and shot them both in the hat, and then they took her upstairs and tide her to the a top rail. On the stairs so the main landing, and then they left. So that's your general occurrences. I mean there's more detail in the book, but that's the general idea and then from there Jennifer said she called the police on her cellphone, which was stuck in her back part of her sweat pants. He was wearing a pair of sweatpants and she had the phone stuck in the back. She called nine one one and told them that they had a home invasion and just actually, while she

still on the phone. She all of a sudden hurt her father and she even screamed at him and he, instead of going to her or going up to make sure she was ok, just ran out the front door and went to the neighbors and was screaming you know so that's kind of the basic. And what we found out later. The father had died and he had actually seen. Jennifer untied talking with the guys And moving around and he knew that they were working together. So that's why he never ran to his daughter Let's you've jumped ahead a little bit quite a bit, but go back because she said that she yelled at him and but he ran out the front leaving her behind. She

said she had a cell phone and because she's on the phone with police he is run next door he's been shot in the face, he's been shot in the neck or the bullet take in to space in the bulletin is lodged in his neck and he's yelling and screaming they Washington Hospital family surrounds them. The police, you say, keep her away from the father and right away. Have the first about many interviews, and I think, just from the tone of how you present the interviews, though the police immediately know right from getting her to repeat herself and in the and the accounting that there's something not exact, be right. There handling with kid gloves care in the circumstances right away. They are seeing inconsistencies and things you don't seem to make sense with their story. Do they yeah well

keeps every time she she would talk about things you know, like with the money, it would be a different amount and she would give different. You know just differences in in the man approaching her with with a rope and then all of a sudden he's coming down the hall play with a gun. She kept changing things and the police were suspicious and they're plus they were suspicious of the father, leaving her and not you know going, you know just running right out, even though he knew she was alive and she was up there screaming so they were on notice from the beginning and watching every little move and she had to many way too many inconsistencies flowed for them just to kind of go from you get. You know they do. They just didn't believe her and-

and that's sort of what that that's sort of what led to her demise really was some all of the lies and you know what they did- get a lot of the cell phone records and copies and it didn't take long to put it all together with the three people that were hired long as well, along with her boyfriend Daniel MR didn't take long for the for the five of them to really get caught. Well, let's, let's give her a little bit of credit and let's give the police some credit as well, because I could say they're handling in the new you put this in the book. Is that they handler and they let her go and they bring back in and then they talk to the brother. And they also realize that not really give her this detail that it looks like a robbery, but they know that there's a Mercedes, there's Alexis those aren't stolen, there's money still in the fall

There's wallet there is a, again varying records of how much stolen from her, and where did she have her money was dubious origins. Anyway, there is a safe in Plainview in the parents room that nobody apparently asked for the combination. They were so desperate for money. He kept saying they kept asking her well. Why wouldn't? Why didn't they hurt you and she didn't really have an answer and they also say well, but all she say was well. They said they said something about my parents not cooperating and that I did cooperate. So right away, this smells very bad, but they proceed very carefully and they I have to get warrants and as warrants they do get, they do get the ping the pinging for off the tower. So they know locations and they tell her that engage her reaction and then slowly Titan device on her. Don't they

to get to the point where you know that the cell phone to's well, you know when, when they you know her hands, are tied up and she's supposed to pull the cell phone out, which state she didn't have a pocket in her sweatpants. So after all that activity, how it would stay there, it's one thing and the other seeing as how she would reach it, and if she did then how she talked, and the other thing was how Did she hear the nine one one operator you know there was just too many things right that made them totally suspicious. It's amazing. You include that they they ask her but also get her. Well, hey, listen! Here's a replica phone show us how you did it, and so then things aren't looking so good. She realizes that you

despite her acting ability that this is not working so good with these guys as it the and, and then I think, that the key to what was her father was in a coma for the for the time, and then he came out of his coma right, and I think that was the key, because then, of course he he would tell the police what he knew and I think in her you know she is. She was nervous about it and I think that sort of was the clincher. You know you don't have your own father come out of a coma and then testify against you it's it's not looking good. So how does police titan this again, this grip on her, so that she does spit out that in and they don't get it all at once, because she's famous now in this

sorry for not giving everything up, even when she says she's going to give everything up so how to police seed? How do they chip away and what do they get with that chipping away? What information do they get. Well, you know, I think they kept on doing the hard interview Ann. The third interview. And it was done by a detective Slade and he did the first. Actually, I should say and then go eights did the final one and he was he This is the real love hate. He was a real aggressive and would scare than be real friendly. You know kind of like good cop, bad cop, in one really and and- and you know he just worked his way through about and he could talk all of the things and get her to start admitting, lies and, and-

how she was dating Daniel and how she was hiding it from the parents and then, and why- and she would go for all of that- he sort of had a way of bringing her out and the and he started getting her to admit different little mistakes and it was long and then just you know trying to remember now. I think that by the end of that she had to admit it that she is she is, she is, she is. She was involved, but she kind of changed it to the point where she didn't want them to kill her parents. She hired them to kill her yeah. The head of since

start started running without story. He got her to admit that she was involved by saying and getting her to admit with admit what what found any way through just extensive interviews that and his reduction of from talking tour over many interviews is that she was very controlled by her father and this relationship was frowned apon to the point where they just wanted her two minutes. She could check your messages. This was really like prison for a young person. I would imagine given everything they they regard as freedom and and- and it just same time he he empathized with her talking about then said: yes, it's just a form of abuse and so to try to get her to understand that he seemed to uh understand why this all happened and that she needed to get on the right side of.

You know, listen, I know you're involved, so you need to tell me the entire story. Otherwise you to make another really really big mistake. So we try to be friend like that and keep that in and chip away till he found the people he thought, were suspects and, of course, and it's backed up by the two towers and then the warrants for her two phones because they first phone. They found information, but the second phone was bit of information on who called and who text before. After and round about the murder time. And then they question their hard, like you say that quite. Question are hard about that. Tell us a little bit about that. Today's well, he was able to kind of go well. You know that you were saying he was. He was.

Understanding about how pressured she felt and how did she was felt abused, and and and some of the key things was. You know he would. He would work up to something and and then you know, are you sorry for what happened to you wish you could take it back and Jennifer then would say yes and then so he would. He would draw her up a certain level and then go back and then he would go with you know. How did it start? What was your plan and stuff and kind of do, draw her into admitting a little bit at a time and and she would be very defensive- you know if I could have stopped, I would have, and you know she put her hands in her face and down and and be very.

You know sad and then of course he would be. You know more supportive. Oh, it wasn't supposed to be your mother and try to be very nurturing and then all of a sudden go back at her again and it didn't take long before you know bring up the numbers and bring up things and she would pull things out and start to say things and then draw back and and judge you know she was she was caught. She really was and it didn't help much in the trial Because most of the stories she told were just that stories they had her testify. Father also testified with boobs and impact statement. You talked about that that

testimony she was on the stand for seven days. Two days you say was devoted just to her lies that to detail. What she had actually said to them, so that the jury could get that part of it straight. And then she continue with the same lie as their defense that she really It die herself or she would. She would have tried to call it off. But she couldn't and you the father had said, like you said that she was free and clear to walk around and he saw that yeah and that's very damaged, yeah well,

you know you know, and then every time, even during the trial, she would say something and she would get caught in a mistake or a lie depending on how you want to to call it and then she would change like she was very good at quickly changing the story to make it work. She was just saying what she have to and it you know nobody was was going to believe it and then having the impact statement as well from the father on top of it and and the suffering that he went through. You know he's a he's still damaged. You know his name

can a space and stuff it. It took several operations and he still not able to work yeah the card and a lot of time speak, and he can't sleep. Peace and great pain all the time. Once the jury sees the damage and they they could just see it and how she was so I don't know just the non caring. I want to say she was just so the plane affect you know. There was nothing there, no feeling and when she did feel it was always when she was getting caught into something or had to admit something, and then she would tear up and hide her face. The idea to is that they they got the idea that too, with the texts and the phone calls that they had people that weren't at the crime itself and that there are people that were actually there and each

charged everyone. They also had witnesses to say is like an Andrew to say: isn't she told me what she was going to do and how it was going to happen then this is it and so very damaging. Doesn't look good at the trial. Tell us what happens in the end. Well, you know she she got convicted, that's not not any surprise and actually, they all did and is she was given the maximum penalty. Two life sentences for the first degree, murder, upper mother and the attempted murder on.

Her father and note sensor parole for at least twenty five years, and so she will be in prison till at least two thousand and thirty. Six problem, she'll, probably never get out. The same sentence went for Daniel Wong and lend Crawford when David Mag, Magnum and and Eric Carr who was the only one that didn't get? That was right, the guy that bargained with the crown- and he took an eighteen year sentence in return, first admissions and the thing is, he was already serving a twenty five year for another murder in another case, so he's he's going to be there for at least forty three years to probably be there for life as well. So we'll see what happens part of his deal was that

Mermaid he provided excuse me. He provided information to the authorities that helped convict these guys and give them first degree murder, which is pretty tough in Canada. Isn't it pretty quite an achievement that have everybody for first degree: murder, yeah, yeah, that's that's a big deal and that's what they want it so, knowing that he had a twenty five year sentence before adding another eighteen, they felt comfortable with it. You know it was chilling. You include the impact statement. Of course the Father, like you say, will never ever be the same. It was interesting to the beaks funeral, which was attended by Jennifer and her brother, but the father couldn't even make it to the funeral. I thought that was odd to even had the funeral, then. There was a an order.

But she wasn't to see to go to see him at the hospital. Yet when the most chilly, Parts of this book is that she snuck in there one time and talking about he is spoken to the police, so he didn't lead on that. He thought she was guilty and at that time she just felt it necessary to ask him watt regarding money, yeah yeah, and I think that was sort of I think they both knew but had the relationship even in that stressful, so

Ua Shun he's lying in the hospital she's had him shot, even in that they could not talk real. You know what I mean there. Wasn't they still both had their front. He still was the father and she still the daughter, and she was still too scared to be aggressive. She had to have other people do what she wanted done, so I think it was scary, but at the same point I think that. They both kept up their persona with each other. It's amazing. She asked for tuition after everything it says in the most

upside down request of all the US she asked sneaks in and then asking for tuition for college, incredible, the out forcefully meat. She was still being her. She was still being the daughter. You know that she was when they were at home. She was still doing it. You know it. She didn't look at him any differently. She didn't see things differently. It was still how it was at home. It is just too weird. And he kept. He had his persona as well. Being the top father not really showing a lot of affection, you know being direct and it just it did it that may, even after all, that nothing changed in their relationship. I would admit that this is a bizarre rely and ship she had with her father and her parents and that it's uh

only does not match any well, almost any home. You would find in Canada, and I would be surprised that people would be that controlling an expect that kind of compliance from there from there daughter, regardless of your background or your heritage. Regardless of that, so I think the parents were being completely under ballistic and then they knew that they had somebody that was not at the same level of them in terms of their values. They should have known what they were. They were, in the world, and so it seemed like they didn't see what she but it's pretty obvious to them, that he said, though. What I find in this is because of her account is lots of times the account. For Daniels or other people around that actually actually seemed to all feel some sympathy for her from situation that she seems.

A lot more psycho pathic. Then I think Sometimes she was portrayed say even at the trial. What do Think about that in terms of the coldness and the evil that she possessed. While her parents were well, I mean they would have been both murdered. So what do you think about that? He are definitely

I think, I think for sure she had. She was definitely a psychopathic situation. She had no emotions toward her parents. It seemed like her her her thoughts were always toward herself and what was going to happen with her so through through everything and even the people. She went through her boyfriend's, the friends just everybody involved. She had no concern for anybody, but herself, so everything she did every single day was totally egocentric. It was totally about her and she started turning that in high school toward herself and carried it right through. I I I I you know, I didn't see any emotion in her and nothing up setting for her that that this is over

very traumatic life to have been through and she just she just held it in or she didn't have a care in the world. You say at the decision at the sentence, NG that she was smiling and the others had no emotion when they have the guilty, but the you did see, hear some screams at the trial and that Daniel Wong's mother ran out of that courtroom. Yeah, oh for sure, you know you have to the three boys, not Daniel long but the other three. If, if. You're, the type that people hire you to kill and the one Eric cardi had been had been convicted of murder as well already on another case, those are people that didn't care, they'll kill for money, and it doesn't really

added to them as far as Daniel Long, he was supposed to be a pretty good boil for all people really like them. He was very friendly that his friends have any let the muses Carrey's let them do. He was super friendly and nice. How he got involved in this is a very, very big question, especially into the murder, especially all that's why I say all those weird phone calls he went through at all the things he went through with both girlfriends Jennifer and Kimberly. He and all the stories that he was told it's what's very confusing. That's why he said he didn't if he didn't believe, Jennifer being raped and have getting things in our mail and all this stuff happening. I don't think he handled it like. He didn't believe it. You know, I I just don't that you know he's a he's. A big question mark in this whole case because writings to be on the on the sidelines he didn't seem to get there. You know there was no. You know if you put yourself in a situation of having a girlfriend wanting you to killed her parents and her and all the story. She told them before

He didn't he, he wasn't there by her side, but at the same time he didn't stop. For I, you know, there's there's something funny about that his character in this, and I don't quite understand it so what kind of promises I don't doesn't seem to be very clear what kind of money where she would have gotten it from do. Give these guys in the kind of money that would give them a motivation to kill at that time, and I don't know if you can say, listen I'll, give you this much money, but later now there is an inheritance that I guess you would have been involved with her and her brother, but and there was the vehicles that they didn't steal the Mercedes in Alexis. But they didn't even touch the safe. So what could she have? Because we don't talk about it, what kind

money. Could she have offered these guys? What could she have offered these guys not very much really. Your right there. Really there really was. No. There wasn't much money, there was maybe what was it about two thousand and twenty three thousand dollars? I think that she could have offered them in cash. Then there's the house, but it was not paid for and the cars and you're right what she would have caught in what her brother would have got in after selling it and paying off the deaths I'd. I don't see that as being a whole lot, but I think the I think a lot of young people don't always realize that or they think that they can get a hug one thousand dollars and that's a lot of money. You know they think wow that's going to set them up for life. Some people don't realize that.

If it's not going to cut it you're only twenty five, it is not going to set you up for the rest of your life and I think I think she just had exaggerated greens. Do you think all the stories with all the the lies? She told, of course, police need to get the information and the evidence after that they do. We need to know every single detail of what was align. What wasn't, but do you think that the story of again how what was offered to be paid and the seriousness of everyone's involvement in this um. You think really the entire truth has been told by's, especially Jennifer. No, no, not at all. You know the closest resemblance of a truth,

really from the evidence the police have from the cell phones from the text from the pings from witnesses and other you know, situations and putting it together. That way. It's probably. Best real time line we have, and even even what happened in the house that night there is that the you know it was told in so many different ways, and do you know what exactly you know they even assume all a lot of it. All all we know is, is you know about her unlocking the door getting the text in game on and they're, both parents being shot and do everything else just kind of a blur, and is there some things they can tell from like you're saying the pain and.

And some of that, so they can kind of tell when things happen in a round about way- and you know she is, she was so fluid with her life that it would just come right out as soon as something was thrown out that that that she couldn't answer, she created something how deep that goes. Who knows because it started back in in eighth grade and she developed a real character to be able to do that and the real talent for it and You know one of those type of people that would stand there and tell you something, and they really believe that you know that's that's how it sounds to you there they could be crying and- and you really believe what they're saying, because they believe it, but she was the type that could tell that out and then flipped the story and in two minutes

I don't know if we could really. I think the best we could do is take the little pieces that we have and know that she was involved and that she said she paid for wanted to pay for this to be done so Yeah, what was the media portrayal? Was there any simp? see for her because of this, which called abuse or what was the media portrayal of her. No, no, never really caught on. For the most part, people will. Angry with her for the for the most part. As soon as she was arrested and the story came out that they they, the people were not happy with with this with. This was not a good thing for her, and and if any

people to pruter. They doubted her completely very, very little sympathy for her. You know it it if anything, the people that did support her at the beginning felt betrayed hi this you know like her uncle and and his family, which she stayed with. For awhile. You know that kind of betrayal. I don't know that they could get over quickly and and people don't like this, they don't like the idea of a of a. U nobody likes this. This girl that having their parents, killed our attempted murders and am setting this whole lot just just to

What to get money, are you know it? You can walk away. She was in her twenties. She did not need to stay at home. Is that there are so many answers. I guess, and people just look at the alternatives. Rather than that you know it's not like she was really being abused. She wasn't being beaten and raped and attacked it's just they're, just something. There's no reason to feel sorry for her. Would I find the Allen is that I don't know if you can concur, but it seems that when the killers often serial killers, often have this, idea that they've been humiliated and it seems that if we could say that was Jennifer humiliated by her father, I humiliated and say front of her classmates who some of her memories, I would say that she could say that.

And in that way, I think that's when she does my. The idea is that when she was four forced to leave Daniel and they were to break up again, she said well, listen. We can still still continue to be in secret and he kind of seemed just the way to the point where he got another girlfriend. Do you think that came into play because of shortly after she start talking the murder of her father? Definitely I think it was it's just one of those things. That was a step at a time you know, and she I think she she you know she felt a sense of control which the law and when that happened, she no longer felt she was in control and especially when he started seeing another girl. He is she felt like she was losing grip, so she had to get desperate, so she had to turn it up a notch.

And so she had to get rid of the thing that was in her way, and that would be her father you know he was in the way in her mind, so he was he was sorry yeah, he was also not. Really going to believe any lies anymore. She getting caught it almost every single thing and it admitted to almost every job that didn't exist school that didn't exist. The diploma that didn't exist. All kinds of things that didn't exist, everything that he every promise he made to him every. So nothing was a lie. Every single thing so eliminate ing. Him would also eliminate that shame that she did feel when she cutting herself and only suicidal, and that seems to be true. Oh yeah,. Yeah that mean it is it all. It all makes sense in that way. I just think that she,

You know she she lived in that world and as a teenager, you can see it, but when you're twenty five you know, I think most most kids just move out. You know I'm not going to take that. You know they get into a fight with their dad and they move out. She stayed with it and, like I said it's a very complex situation to want to do that, to want to stay there and to want to please him like you know, Why did she feel she have to keep flying and keep trying to please him and stay at home at the when you're in you're, in your mid to late twenties, it starts to get. I don't know what what what? What was the? What was the end goal for her well, the disown meant

is the what they threatened her with they said. Listen, you can be with Daniel what we will disown you from your family. And so that is a huge decision. I mean psychologically. That's a hell of a thing to have to pick and and, like you said of the it seems questionable her actual mature age or actual maturity in term with all this isolation and focus on things and uh and focus on social life. Well, she real twenty five. I mean not to excuse not to excuse at all, but did she act in any way like twenty five yeah. She probably wasn't and I mean you, know 'cause, even the thought of being disowned. If that's going to crush you, that's one thing, but then so, instead of being disowned, you killed I will sure what I mean it just when you look at the bigger picture. It's kind

like wow, so she was really trapped in that hole. That whole world, and- and so so she was so trapped in it and I'm not saying this Clearly forced, but even in her own mind she she couldn't leave. She was part of that that house sold and that that family it would be better for her to kill them than to actually move out and beat his own, so in her, my right and she was pretty pretty screwed up well. The thing is, I think, that if you look at this too, it doesn't seem like that. She's diabolical, and none of these guys are diabolical in after the fact or before or in planning or anything. So, thank God for that in terms of not so bright criminals because it helps. But that's the only thing I've you could see. The sea follow g, but it's not

diabolical. Otherwise we would, we would have them dealing differently at trial will say in dealing differently through interviews and everything else. The thing Thankfully they're not diabolical killers, in this case yeah yeah definitely. Now Ellen. I wanna. Thank you very much for coming and talking about daily betrayal, the true story of Jennifer PAN for those that might want to look at other work that you have. Is it the other true crime books that you do and also tell us a little bit about your podcasts house of mystery, excellent podcast to print part yes so tell us about where they might be able to see your other work, Facebook pages or websites and tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, actually, I have five books out and they're all on.

Amazon, of course, and is any good bookstores, and my web page. Of course you can go to it's just the house of mystery and something weird media dot com. It kind of has everything. Books shows how some mysteries out of seattle- and we broadcast five days a week Monday to Friday, at four hundred pm Tell us a little bit about the diff format for those people that haven't been to. House of mystery. Tell us what the formats like there's so many different types of formats and How much does you know? Competition in true crime tell us what your format is and just tell the kind of thing that you do week after week. Well, we're sort of we cover all types of mystery, so it be true crime. Mystery can be paranormal. Mystery can be history's mysteries,

and we usually have guests on that- have written for Donna, Fillmore had some sort of project or may they were involved in a crime and kind of have a dialogue not so much a debate. A dialogue about the the thing that they were involved in and we also I have a doctor Joe Kaczynski, calls in and gives us the top three conspiracies of the week and Steve lampley does the true crime commentary and he said he's a csi cop who talks about the real csi and what they do know and what happens to the body after death and all the different research angles. He does a little commentary segment. So it's kind of a kind of a little bit of everything in there and absolutely.

Lot of fun. We try to be more like a little bit more scientific in scientific in our in our approach to things like on conspiracy, and things like that. So we're not just like free, belt thing talking about anything. We did not inquire, yeah we're trying be a little bit more realistic. Logical and have evidence based things come into the show Absolutely it's a great podcast, great property, and I recommend it. I will Thank you very much. Alan are worn for coming on and talking about this incredible Jennifer PEN and the murder of her family and attempt wild attempted murder, her entire family deadly betrayal. Thank you very much for this Alan hope to talk to you again, real thank you for this. You have a great night. Thank you.

Hi, it's Jamie progresses employee of the month to month in a row, leave a message at the paging me. It's me Jamie do not forget to buy lentils what lentil soup you're making for dinner will be sorely lacking by the way MRS Callaway says thanks for helping her bundle home, and I know she appreciates the exercise- a means, even though you kept using the word after opposing correctly, but the main thing is do not forget to buy. Was it something I propose the Lentol Soup?

sorry I'll call you back the rest of casualty, insurance company, affiliates discounts not available in all states or situations. If you don't dispose of the unused or expired prescription drugs in your home, they might find a new one. They could end up lost, stolen or simply misused. Keep them safe, clean them out. Take them back at the US. Drug enforcement administration's national prescription drug take back day Saturday October. Twenty sixth from ten am to two pm to find a collection site. Please visit the d e, a take back dot com, that's d, e, a take back dot com.