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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, night stalker every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski good evening in the late hours of July, 22nd, one thousand nine hundred and ninety one detective Patrick Pat Kennedy is in Milwaukee Police Department was asked to respond to a possible homicide,

Little did you know that he would soon be delving into the dark, might have one of America's most notorious serial killers, the Milwaukee Cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer. As the media clamored for details, Kennedy spent the next six weeks, sixteen hours a day locked in an interrogation room with Amr there, the thirty one, zero killer, described and limit detail, how we lured seventeen young men to his apartment, where he strangled sexually assaulted, dismembered and, in some cases, cannibalized his victims in grilling Dahmer, the interrogation of them a walkie cannibal. The reader is taken on a horrifying to her into the mind of evil Ass Kennedy patiently meticulously. Listen,

who unspeakable whores so that a month it will be taken off the streets forever. The bookstore featuring this evening is grilling Dahmer, the interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal, with my special gas journalist, an author Robin Mirage, welcome back that programme and thank you so much for this interview Robin Maharajah. Thank you very much. Damn thank you so much fun with this book growing Dahmer. Why to tell our audience are. You came to be involved with Patrick Kennedy and ultimately involved with this incredible story Well, quite a few years ago, probably back about almost nine years ago, I, when I was working as a freelance writer, I always had a full time job, but I was always you don't serve Hungary too. riding over time, and so I was working as a freelance writer and get some of them

the time I turned forty, and I thought you know I've been sort of tackling lots of different topic than its fabulous because you do get the learn about a lot of different thing, but I kind of got to appoint was lacking I really want to focus on the things that I'm really interested in and I feel like I know a lot about so true crime course was one of those things and I thought I was gonna, try and tackle, and article and rate at your crime article into thirty, see how it goes. So. I chose Jeffrey Dahmer because I had seen something listed and it was kind of like you know that the ten most evil people in history and for whatever reason, Dahmer was number three, so they will. The stolen Hitler Dahmer five like I know it was a bad guy. I know he

that really monsters things. That really was the most deal. Third, most evil person in the history of the world. So it can. It made me want to explore him a little bed indecent your background check on him and research a little bit more about the case I mean I was familiar, obviously with who Jeffrey Dahmer was, and I knew sort of the highlights of the story and and the crimes that he had been doing charged with intervention was imprisoned for, but I don't really know that much about I'm. So I decided I wanted to do an artist about him and when the reasons that I felt a little bit of the different

between him and of other killers that you know you ve profiled in books on your show is like it felt like you know. This is a guy who he was killing, but it was really a means to an end because he was really a necrophilia. Can he really does one of those bodies, and ultimately, really we really wanted- was companionship. He wanted a person he wanted, somebody there to be with him, because he never really experienced love. You didn't really like conflict. He didn't really like confrontations, though he didn't really want a true partner. I'm someone that he'd all he could be conversing with angel, challenging him at all. He didn't really wanted somebody there who he could talk to and do things with so, but I felt ill his place of coming was really out of a place of love in a place of need and loneliness. So to me, I got back something I want to explore. Though I contacted a few people, and eventually I found myself in touch with Patrick. These through email and refugees, the kind of interested in my take on it- and he said you know- I have notes and reports, indifferent things that I've kept over all these years. Maybe it'll

hope you so as it turned out, he became a source for my interview and I ended up going down to with content. I met with him. We did the interview. He showed me all of these note that everything that he had and we even talked about possibly collaborating on something a book together. My was it you, he lifted his story and he doesn't need some assistance, the kind of get it fruition finished and then maybe be looked at by me, I a publisher barometer. Five days after we met in Wisconsin. He had It had a heart attack and died, and so I did eventually go on with my article. I sent it to his widow and she You know you get a really nice job here and I think that you ve gotta had an understanding of how Patrick felt about Dahmer. Why don't you just take the note to take whatever you have there and to see what you can do with it? If it becomes a book great?

but he wasn't really prepared to do anything like she didn't have the experience. I don't think she really even had the ambition or the drive necessarily to turn this into a book. She said: it'll, probably just go into a desk drawer. Otherwise you know so with that I said you know. Not only is this an interesting story that should really be told that its also now kind of a legacy for candidate, because to me he was a detective who just happen to be responsible for interrogating one the most notorious serial killers in american history, but really he Patrick had an interesting story of well. Yes, you talk about his his back.

Fourth generation police officer and dumb and then his rise in the police ranks itself to that point when he was slated for the interrogation of Jeffrey Dahmer bite his lieutenant at that time and what you, after he died, and a new course bonnet with his widow. Really what you were left with was the description. They total description of Jeffrey Dollars confession, but also your his complete interaction as he was the main detective along with another detective, but he was absolutely main detective in Eritrea in interrogating Jeffrey Dahmer. So what you did have from from that Patrick Kennedys widow was essentially,

how he did it, what Jeffrey Dahmer had said and he was able to obtain identification of all the victims with Jeffrey dollars, cooperation and identification and details about all them all of the murders. To corroborate his confession that Patrick Kennedy elicited from him, yeah. I get Dahmer very quickly felt their report. Obviously with Kennedy and said you know I'll talk, but I only want to talk to you and dumb there was something there that I think it was the Patrick saying in all like high, you know with whom they introduce them thousand. He wasn't gonna love, I'm not like there with a couple of other detectives who has tackled him because they realize you know me that somebody here who who seems to be dangerous- and this is also, of course, in dollars- apartment by the time Kennedy who was a plain clothes detective, showed up. It'll he'd been through wrestling with the carpet a little bit. He was handcuffed and they got him off and I think he was just like it

only phrase, always Admin ended Dahmer even set. Are you gonna beat me up to and die contracts had no line on this gonna, I'm looking to hang out with you for a little bed and then we're gonna. Take you downtown and then I want I want to talk to. I want to hear what you have the same. Tell us a little bit more about Frederick Kennedys background concerning his religious upbringing and before we talk about his assignment to interrogate Jeffrey Dahmer and his plan on how he would interrogate him, though Patrick was a catholic enemy. The Catholic, I think, all through his life right up to the end of his life, and you know it. Given the practising a Catholic, he found a lot of follows in the church and in fact, even before you don't keep, is embarking on any kind of career when he was a young man, a real likely teens early twentieth hunted inside what he wanted to do with his future. I'm here

he contemplated actually becoming a priest, mean of teams that involved with the catholic church. I think actually get some scholarships stuff worthy of religious school it he went to and attended I'm so he was right. we need a very, very involved in, and you know the catholic Church and then Patrick had a drinking problem like he was an alcoholic, and so when it came time where he decided. Ok, I'm gonna be no, I want to be. There I want to get past this Israel is really through the church, like you went to a counselling kind of programme through that was offered to the church, though there was a really important part of his light. You seen, I would say, I think, the idea of the confessional I think with important Patrick and I think that idea of making it into a place of sort of comfort for that person enemy, no matter whether other confessing to you know the kind of be there and say I am not here to judge you I'm just here,

than to what you have to say. That was definitely the way that Kennedy kind of, I think became turnover of somebody that Dahmer could or felt that he could talk. You can we're talking about Dahmer who most people who knew him a few people that knew him and those who knew him really well would say you know it. Under any kind of type of pressure or authority. Where you know he felt he was being confronted. He would just shut down like he does, would not talk. You have nothing to say anybody, and that was that of the idea that Patrick could say. Won't you know you want some coffee about a cigarette. Have you even at all in a lately? Can we get a downward against was also if you mean thing that after Arab Patrick was doing and that I think Dahmer responded to Patrick New, as well, because of him Bina, alcoholic or recovery alcoholic himself very quickly, recognised and job like this guy. I think I've got it linking problem like when he showed up like when he came to the police station. I think he was just sobering out from an evening a night of drinking, and I think after

guys that right away and said: do you think you have a dream problem? Gas and just said YAP and projects at the office is something that we can. We can talk about go between religion, and certainly there are God and were rolled, and God playing your life plus alcoholism and sort of the effects that that has had in terms of decisions and things that he would make my think four dollars and damage case it kind of game. Energy Canna gave him a confidence and encourage a little bit, and often he would say when it came to the membrane bodies in the things that he was doing. He'd often have to be very drunk in order to be able to do that. Together they better connected along the way but Patrick before he became a police officer. He did come from a family of cop that he actually wanted. we shall work first and that he was working with ex convict and tat. They were doing a programme where they were working on houses that they were teaching. These guys skills like US

in electrical work and plumbing, and then they would fix up houses in Milwaukee seldom views. The money that they made and by another house at either that work on it. So this was to give these guys like from the do something that wasn't criminal and also to teach them some skill. So he did that for quite a long time, but his family was growing. He got married very young. He had his first child when he was very unlike nineteen twenty years or so by the time. Their child came along and we're talking catholic private school. He needed a bit

career he needed a credit was gonna, pay him a little bit more money, so I think that's when he decided to join the police force and he also kind of felt like I know the scheduling and know how it works. I know what it was like to be a cop, because again his father was a police officer, so we can. I knew what was expected of them and that yeah, so he very quickly like I mean I think he went up the ranks and became a homicide, detective pretty young when he encountered Dahmer for the first time. Tat was thirty. Seven! You talk about this July. Twenty second nineteen, only woman anybody's is ever followed any true. story or Jeffrey Dahmer story. No, so we don't have to go through it again, but this is Tracy. Edwards is found by police. We flagged up police with a hack up around one arm and he doesn't really. He just wants to get unhand cap on hand, and so we jointly

To the nearby apartment of Jeffrey Dahmer- and he just Didn'T- want any criminal charges, he just wants the key to the handcuffs and Geoffrey Dahmer can produce. That's all. There is a scuffle with police. After they take a look around, they see some Polaroid. of dismembered people, and so, while they are going through Milwaukee police departments going through therein, First thing they do. Is they look in the fridge and they see a severed head in the fridge staring at them? But Kennedy is not at the home itself. He is interrogating Jeffrey Dahmer, so the thing is obviously one of the main issues. Always if not the main issue is when the issue. whether this person will ask for an attorney. So obviously Dahmer says I don't wanna be uncooperative. Blood

Do you think I should get a lawyer? So what is the? What does Patrick Kennedy do because this is a big issue? What does he say that every Dahmer to convince him he talking and not talk the lawyer. Well, you you, don't UK users dollars your first statement, which I really want to try and help you guys, and you know, if I can help you to tell you who do you guys were help you identify like you really they are saying. This is what we need from you and he is kind of a green through it had actually did go to the apartment, though he actually, he did the interrogation everything any wasn't the first police officer on the sea. There were some like you'd have one caught that were there with Tracy, but they quickly called arm of others and there they found the head and out and was actually out, please raise your with his partner and they were just getting ready to start their shift and they got that call. They got that call. You gotta go check out this apartment,

they had in the freezer are afraid and NATO's bombing nothing, but you need to go and look out we'll go check it out and say that we did it got a thing and so that's how he ends up at the apartment and Oh yeah, just had been kinder wrapped up a little bit. He was already handcuffed, but that was actually when they first were introduced, and I think that the two, when Dahmer kind of realise ok well, maybe this may I can't blocked this guy, you know, and so he kind of stock within him the whole time till they got the police station and that's when Dahmer surgeon. I thought, but I want to talk to him until then, boss, educate. You know you're on this guy you're like glue that about the lawyer, though, attitude asked about list again buddy saudi things on the news. They saw the meme Jeffrey Dahmer until they actually call Jeff dad Jeffrey The third ain t tat you do. I need a lawyer, you gotta hemming in high and a little bit, not sure. If I talk to you, gonna wanna keep going here, but

he was realizing. I mean really hot water, but with actually Lionel Jospin Father, who was in Ohio, heard about what is going on and said in a minute As a lawyer for me, son of he found a lawyer that they actually already had had some experience with. I mean just have been in some trouble before nothing like this, but had had a lawyer before we got back lawyer and heating. Down and I guess it was really started. The standoff almost legal, the lawyers and I don't want my client talking anymore. There's me Well, hidden hire you, you know somebody else at hired, you and we gotta find out from Jeff what he wants to do. So you don't. I guess I could settle your lawyers here. Maybe you better to shot out, but they really want to take any. They wanted to continue him talking and they were doing everything they could. Keep him in communicating with them. though they said. Will you can talk to me? You can have your lawyer here. Your rights can be looked after, but if you sign that early I'll be the paper that you want to continue talking to us in helping us, then

You have to go away to your lawyer. You can sit sit here and still talk to us about what he ultimately did, though the dream the interrogation, The lawyer did have his assistant sitting in true pretty much everything like sheep there. While he was confessing you re, so that he uses the he talks that every Dahmer realises Jeffrey Dahmer does not want to go to the ball pen with everybody. This arrested that night light as well. You can go down there if you want, but I know you realize it isn't: gonna go down there, so he says,

you can continue talking. We can just talk about your past to talk about your family so justly and urged him to talk. So there was an interesting ploy. Did he do that now, all by himself in that room with Jeffrey Dahmer, he used that his catholic upbringing is experiencing in alcoholics anonymous? How did you use these aspects of his own personal life to be able to reach the Jeffrey Dahmer took to plead the Jeffrey Dahmer to help in this investigation? what was that help that they actually wanted once they did get this confession from him. While he was using religion, he was using my little bit of family using the idea of drinking- and I mean I mean you didn't

They want to come off and you didn't really want Jeff to bees or, if suddenly thinking hey. If I could blame alcohol them, suddenly, I'm not quite so responsible leg and wanted him to sort of our own it a little bit. But again, I M really deserted the ito. Tourism will maybe this you know affected you, like maybe the oldest drinking and everything affected you and it certainly like in terms of all of the maid. are things that happened in Dahmer, lifelike, it'll schooling and going on the college in an army at everything you washed out, because we have this in a consistent drug drinking problem. So I think not. I think what TAT did was actually shared a lot of its own story, which I can't really think of the committee's protective homicide, a directive that would do

that, in a like the kind of learning they just want a year from this aspect? Little necessarily want to share anything about they're alive. But I guess, for whatever reason, Ino Pat fulfilled as though this is something I can reach the sky and so on. Some of that help, I think, in terms of Justino kind of using a bit of it as an excuse, some of it as your bills, of having a question why he was doing what he was doing that really, as you said, just get him talking, tough guy get it to go through each of the stories of each of the man that he met than how did he had managed to convince them back? Don't forget him in that, essentially how he operated. He wasn't going on adapting people from the street. He was making connections with people very quickly and like men and paint. Why don't you come back to my place and love them sir, would you watch a movie or whatever enemy Yelp every kind of remarkable? They need It dahmer that they really needed Dahmer, because back and ninety one I made sure DNA was accessible

not nearly as accessible as it is now, and they didn t necessarily, no tell me they didn't, have a list of potential victims, because people haven't mean some people had maybe been reported missing, but I'll take them away. he police only took what goes missing report all that seriously, as I think they looked at these photos of these very strong, healthy, looking men and say: well, you know whoever this guy, tangled with I'm sure this person was the one the most successful. didn't think of these as potential victims, whereas Dahmer was making them very doth while he was giving them drinks, but if there were at least with drug for these guys were very door, violin and willing to kind of meal B B, a victim for Dahmer but yeah

needed Dahmer to identify those people because between photographs and what Dahmer with calling them about date is actually pretty good about. Remembering all, remember me this guy at the mall you know of summer time, and this is basically the rules that are used to get him to come back to my my apartment, Zeus's opportunities buffer. Second, for these messages, Robin summer is here and you're. A local acme is Stockton ready what the freshest meets in protest at the perfect time to fire. The grill taken a game and discover my summer is better with Acme skip the line at shop online at acme markets. Dot com, where inexperienced acme associate, will carefully select your order and bring the groceries right. Dear car place your first online order and get thirty dollars off when you spend seventy five dollars or more limitations and restrictions apply visit, acme markets, dot com for details without depositing a penny you.

already started saving for your newborns higher education, children born to Pierre residents in two thousand nineteen, and after have one hundred dollars waiting in a Keystone scholars, account part of the p a five twenty nine, knowledge and career savings programme. Keystone scholars helps you get an early start for reward finish view your account Etienne five twenty nine die com, slash, Keystone and watch your savings grow alongside your child. Discover more at pee. Five, twenty nine died comes lodged Keystone. We were talking about the boys on the technical term, Hydra Kennedy employed to get this incredible.

The confession to be able to identify all of the victims in the end and it took like you say that the six weeks speaking to him every day, one of the things that was instrumental was the what Jeffrey Dahmer felt when speaking to Patrick Kennedy, he did not want to. He didn't want Patrick Kennedy to feel the feel Patrick candidate judge him, and so Patrick Kennedy used a non judge, mental attitude towards everything that Jeffrey Dahmer said, and even some of the times as you right in this incredible detailed confession that there were times he had to walk out and walk out of that room

didn't even believe what he was being taught till. He got confirmation, but the biggest thing that he used was that non judge, mental attitude and when Jeffrey looked at him or his partner later on, they had that look of note, not the disgusted. They probably would feel that they just handed on Judge Mental added yeah like. I think I think it was due to everything that he was telling them. You know from the point of like oh, I started in skins of the victim, nor I was you know, I think in the bones away, or I decided you know like I really like this victim, so I wanted to experiment with eating this for eating them. I mean you can't you, I can only imagine what these devices are thinking because I'm sure on the one hand, they thought this guy's crazy enemies as Neil making up these stories, but, as you know, and as they found out from your medical examiner and end as to what they were finding in the apartment, go to court ones, they got him

the police station. They were starting to go through this apartment downward even realise that right away, you know he kind of sat up in his chair. You mean they're going to my apartment. Now you know is a law of course, as we found as ever it at your afraid, we gotta find out what else there began. I mean it was just like you know incredible. It does when you start to think ok. Will it couldn't possibly get any worse than this? It somehow did, but the other absolutely they kept the professional. They kept. It very calm, soothing enemy that partly it was Jeff. Like I mean he wasn't a belligerent, rude us back on anyone actually very politely. You know he was driving. They may be able to try to point out a little bit when he's had a bit of a sense of humor eleven. He wasn't an unpleasant person to have to spend on me what he did with unpleasant, but I mean he himself was actually kind of Mary Guy, so probably wouldn't have gone quite so smoothly had he said you know at the cop I'm not block, and anybody- and you know like dotted line to them. You know urge our calling them exaggerating or maybe not

all the information I mean he did kind of it all thing. occasionally, but I mean he always came forward with the truth with eight they asked them about something than he would tell them, as you said, he knows he was gonna worried. I mean, after all said and done you kind of worried about what they would think of him in. This incredible interrogation, Jeffrey Dahmer at some point, gets real relaxed and then detected Murphy and Patrick Kennedy listen to these incredible stories, but of course they want to go chronologically through all of his victim, so he starts with June 19th the eight in a higher, and he talks about being pulled over by an officer with garbage bags in the back seat, and these not really pulled over any specific reason, but the officer they serve Richard Munsey is questioning him so in this investigation

radar is telling them about an officer in Ohio in nineteen. Seventy eight, it pulls him over. So tell us just a little bit more about this. This story that probably many people know, but also that Patrick Kennedy once he hears this needs to get verification of this story, so tell us just a little bit about the victim and then the verification of this incredible lord sure, well there in June that it would have been around the time that Jeff with graduated from high school, he was basically on his own with living on a highly whose living in this very night how's that his parents had his parents are in the process of divorce and they ve been kind of separated and they were in the process of the borderline. His father had moved on with another woman who then, between Jeffrey Stepmother and decide that they were married, are very very long time afterwards

but his mom, she ended up making the younger brother too. It was gone. She wanted to go and be clear but closer to her family. So here's if in Ohio and I'll give you like an eighteen nineteen years old and dumb ice, I think I always suspected that he kind of arranged this a little bit that I think is mom who was so upset with his dad said. You know, like all your father and tell him there were gone and that you're on your own here I hope, Did that right away, I think he got a guy like me, miss but by myself it was actually the booze gonna come and go as he wanted. Not no one was rather put any pressure on him, though he was but a living in this house for several weeks before his dad came and then discovered that he was living on his own and wondering where a Y Y, you didn't call for a sooner but anyways wildest. While this period of time was that he was on his own, driving any picked up a hitchhiker, and

young man named has even here, and he was actually honestly to a new that first of all, but he had a thumb out and so just pick them up. Ordered shouting, and he said why don't you come back to my house, I got booze there. We can make smoke a little pot whatever and hang out. Listen to music gotta hang out for a while, so this guy, but along with it- and so I think, Jeff was quite attracted to the guy. You know they were having conversations about school about summer, music, whatever and down to drink tea and you're gonna hanging out party in a little bit. Will eventually this guy said you know I gotta go because I want to get back onto the highway and continue on to my music festival adjusted wanting to go. He didn't want to believe so. They ended up wrestling around and kind of fighting a bit and just picked up a like a Bible candles about the metal part of the barbaric and firstly on the head, and so he the course was unconscious and then just did something

first of all many ended up, strangling the young man and you white freaked out in our course. This was his first time ever doing anything like live and ass though he was, you know I think, on the wine I'm sorry sexually excited, but at the same time is also terrified, because what happens if somebody find out He ended up destroying this young man caught up the body and they would enter into body part, and he put these body parts into big bag and one night very lady without driving and this Cobb Sarah Officer, Manly pull them over and I think the reason he actually soft and was where there was a girl of quiet at a country road- and there was this one. That would kind of not really worrying, but it was gonna, get not driving all that straight, so the guy that maybe something ager who's been drinking habitable, moulder, so sure enough. It

gas, and you know he was a young teenager, and so are you set it down? You have you been drinking the night than man and Jephtha well away earlier? I was hanging out with a friend and we had a couple of years, but you're not drunk now so the officer sort of how to flash lady looking in the car like, what's with all these bags in the back seat, so Jeff very quickly, they cannot see that well, actually, there garbage bags in that form headed. Now I wanted to go to the dumb. My mom asked me to do this earlier on I'd, forgotten and she's really upset. right now, because he and my data going through a divorce, and I just thought this: what kind of cure her out? That's kind of deal did something that she had asked the kind of elite It is, I guess, but somehow, with a charm and politeness, whatever Jeff was able to sell their story, so the guy basically said. Well, you know what that dump is closed. You can't leave bags out Isley better to head home. He did take the licence information and the license you I've just down on a no powder,

everybody, basically to send him away his way. No ticket knows I patient as a warning, and so just me it column, and I guess he was so terrifying about the idea of maybe being caught again that he actually all these bag like crushed the bomb than the body as much as it possibly could, and then he scattered what he could in the backwoods behind the house, and I also know what kind of a wood the areas we need. This kind of like put the body out there and so fast forward, thirteen years or so- and we are now in ninety ninety one just been and he in custody and he's explaining to the de facto these victims how it all unravelled in terms of how we manage to find these men in Milwaukee, but he did say I this earlier killing, which happened in Ohio, so he went through when he told him the whole story, so they said

we're gonna have to bring somebody from Ohio does to verify, causing wanted to go through in Ohio record's. Insofar as missing men found that era from the late seventies and to see you see, how many people could fit that description of the detective Ohio during this period of time and attack. The detective in Milwaukee are talking to Jeff, they bring the detective in and he's, got photos and near out on the table any showing Dahmer and Dahmer picked not right away that this is the guy right here, Stephen hit em so that they know, kind of how they identified that one and when he was describing with this operator from Ohio, exactly what happened in all, they are killed him, and then I tried to get rid of the body in these garbage bags. I gotta thought and that I'm just going home and scattering the bones and and the body parts in my back yard the officer who had

from Ohio. Later was talking with the tv directive has said in a way that was me with a directive that Stockton and it was actually monthly that they in ninety ninety one sent from Ohio to Wisconsin, to verify either verify or discredit what this guy was telling them. So they were kind of running Murphy, Patrick Partner, I hate you couldn't wait, seventy, nine and the guy was horrified accord but very wisely. I think in very kindly said to him. You know what he's lied. Any filled a lot of people so don't feel too bad, but when they did go by to Ohio, and they searched the grounds of the backyard of this house where Dahmer had lived as a young teenager they did find. Actually, there remains, after all those years and actually found a little piece of a retainer that belong to the victim. So between that they were able to go to the family who, for thirteen years, I had no idea what happened through their their son. There, brother

their cousin. I just feel he went off to be successful and has disappeared, and hurt, but now it will never heard from again, while they finally be able to get the answers as to what happened in and confirmed that he in fact was a victim back in eighteen. Seventy eight, yes enough, so incredible also made twenty six. Ninety ninety one again, anyone who has ever looked at this Dahmer story is aware of this nine one. One call woman caused report. A young man naked beaten up stand up needs help. Meanwhile, the then she gives us this. This young man she thinks is a boy a windbreaker to cover up to ten girls come over as well, and the police officers common and basically dumb, really appreciates

much of the women telling them what to do or what they should look at and they try to question the boy, but he is slurring his his words. He can't really communicate to the police officers and then Jeffrey Dahmer comes on the scene. I walking with the six pack and wanton into this crowd of people and and tell

The police that day is boyfriend and certainly is not young any serve in its twenties and he's a boyfriend. And often this has happened before is naked and in drunk and runs out of the apartment, and these have to go get em blow the police, despite the women trying to intervene, go back to the apartment, and so Dahmer was able to convince them that it was as boyfriend by showing them photos of this consenting person in various provocative poses. He couldn't find the identification, but the police officers seem to be impatient, or at least it seemed that Jeffrey damage. Explanation made a lot of sense and they release this intoxicated or this young boy slurring. His word, who had been dry, not realising any, was not realising it the boy and the even an adult, and then they laughed and, of course, the famous conversations within the EU

one officer and also the dispatcher for everyone to know that they were very callous about the event. Also, though, but May 26th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety one very much like the June one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight, when Patrick Kennedy and Detective Murphy are listening to these confessions, he's horrified to realize That again, this police officers released this war waged and boy back to the clutches of Jeffrey Dahmer so Luckily, I want him back to the apartment and right back into the hands of liver serial killer. Yap had so Patrick goes again is horrified because he knows what he is going to have to someone is gonna have to confront these police officers, and this kind of information is gonna be released and these police officers are going to have to while they will realise what they did, that

yeah, that's gotta confirmation, yeah, and you talked about the proper Kennedy to keeping Jeffrey Dahmer talking during this interview, and Geoffrey did not want to talk to other people. There was, as you write many or a couple times when there was people. Fbi agents wanted to talk to them, on the day the attorney boil had set his assistant, Wendy Purchase and Patrick Kennedy did an admirable job and telling her well. He hasn't requested for an attorney, so we're not gonna. Let you talk to him. We're not finished with our investigation, but then I can write a far more experienced. Her boss attorney boil comes down to the police station.

and you write about how Pepper Kennedy deals with with this attorney and his request to speak to his quiet. Tell us what how Patrick Kennedy deals with this attorney and what this attorney actually as a result, maybe not what he wanted. Well, I mean I think that the boil with basically just you know, like get my client out there. You know like over arrest them if you're going to you, but I don't want you talking to him any more and them and they basically The second only to give ground like it may mean. Oh yeah, you got a call from the bad and you know him. You have been a client of yours previously for some other bill, interaction that just as they have done, but it'll what we You don't leave willing to talk to us and we are going to continue. Jane him, and though I think boil I mean he was really upset frustrated, and I mean, of course they don't little window all yeah thanks for coming. I mean it's a sort of starting to unfold, though they don't. You

even though yet how bad it's getting I mean they say, is no it bad, but they dont know. We know the number of victims and of what exactly Jeff was doing with these victims and deal. How many close call there had been aware. Jeff, maybe could have been caught earlier ill. They don't know any of that. Yet so I mean, I think, that's just really stood his ground and I mean personally he knew, but I think I can get through to this guy. I think I can talk to Dahmer and I can get him to confirm to me you like me. He expressed it only when I leave the room where you going. Are you coming back like he's very much state? There was something in there that there was a report there and and TAT was not going to let the lawyer can come in and do his singing and dancing and indicted witless Gawayne. The client me was the comment that this is gonna. Be of this is going to happen because of Dahmer. They wanted the doktor Please please, how do you feel like you're, ready to confess, they agreed. They did agree that somebody like some legal representation, should be in the room.

Dahmer Parasite Donna went along without, as did the detectives as well From that point of view. I would like you know we don't want to. We want to make sure that when this case whatever happens, goes to court, we want to make sure that you know I'd. We haven't violated jobs right, but they didn't, I mean he said I want to continue talking to you I know my lawyers here. I know he wants Minister stop talking to shut up, but I want to go on talking and he said I wanna help like at this point on cod. There's, really nothing do, I know I'm gonna be going away for life. I want to. to identify with ease where and don't forget. You know, but this point Dahmer kind of coming out of this the drunken in our view, this sort of starting to realise, like the implication of what can happen and what they know, they're going through my apartment, all of my secret they're gonna come out he was basically a gap.

I'm gonna. Do I can't make a man as soon as I can see? There is really nothing he could do to to. fully it'll be fun when for what he had done, abide strictly by not by the victims. Families are anything but a mean at least really could do. I guess he felt was to identify who the victims were well with you. We can skip over the brilliance of Professor Kennedy, planting these ideas and Geoffrey Dahmer said the boy worry leaves room and comes back and radar. Mrs you know. Basically, I think I know how to make amends. You know while these ideas that the only way to make amends the really again to do something favourable out of this situation. It was horrible, was to identify the victims for the families so that they could have that peace of mind, and so he mentoring agree to that, but but Patrick planted all of these ideas,

That's something beneficial could happen from this and what I also omits you dont really right about, but we have to realise that Patrick Kennedys as a handsome man is six point. Seven and two hundred sixty five pound. With you, as you write, a very gentle nature. Now Jeffrey Dahmer in this interrogation is incredible. How again this vicious remorseless psychopath a killer

is very vulnerable and childlike in that room, even always easy inarticulate, intelligent man. He is very vulnerable and Patrick Kennedy at least uses that fact to be able to reach Jeffrey Dahmer at first when you like, you said he was in a sort of a drunken stupor still and then he kept coming out of it, make a feeding on coffee in cigarettes and and as you right as well, that cigarettes and coffee were again part of the motivation, Jeffrey Dahmer, thinking nitty at him. You know I am nicotine addiction, so cigarettes and coffee and later on, doughnuts and just a non judgmental even friendly discourse, many times and and ass. You re too that when he was writing up a confection when they wanted to get all of the detail, so they were really able to identify the victims. That of those data

ass, those incredible details were were forthcoming for Jeffrey Dahmer. He acted. You write our Patrick rights that it was like there be to him. He seemed talking to a therapist during this entire again many many weeks, I'm interrogation were you gonna have to think they got all this kind of those inside Dahmer on regardless you think of them. In terms of as a person I mean You know there must have been some sort of semi muster. Now. Ok, while I'm gone, let me I'm gonna be in prison. That's it I'm going to see the light of day, and I also have to live with what I've done. People are gonna, be referring to me as a monster, my family, you know they're gonna be affected, because of the name and that back connection Neil there. Always, oh you know, Dahmer you will

we Dahmer and that it also I mean there was definitely I think there might have been some relief in a way for Dahmer. Did this be able to have like get it all out? You know, like I mean, probably in the worst waiting, never thought he'd ever have to, or you wouldn't want to do that, but I think in that particular in an irrigation room. With that particular detective at work I mean Jeff could have also made it couldn't shut down. I was sort of one option. The other one is that you know he was a very like a charming guy like they could be charming when he wanted you very politely, no, yes or no, sir, very deferential enemy. Could it is like all these nice things too to Kennedy at but lie. You don't mean that how he managed to get away with it opens up a cop and Ohio when the cops on the street, with the young Ladys from boy and and other people wearing they play parole officer than in the past and other people where he was able to do the everything's. Ok, nothing! see here nothing to worry about here, it'll enemy, because he was this

nice guy? They all kind of an act of anything he was boring and land in Osborne. They were concerned like nothing, you guys are capable really anything other than some of them. Little skirmishes something that he had been involved with? Previous so any I we think that the fine line, because I know a few people have said to me. Well, you know I mean what they had a mummy. What else would they gonna do? Of course he was gonna confess necessarily he ain't gonna shut down the also could it just light and lied and line and deny the, oh, you know, but I mean not only with confessing. There is actually there is one charge, that they ended up. Dropping Alex. but they had a victim. They had if they had a name and he had actually identified somebody, but they couldn't find anything of this victim in the other crisis of the other victims. There would be there at all or there was a driver's license or there was something that

the longer was part of the victim that they could say. Ok, he was guilty and he killed this person because we have something of that person will there was one of them that they had absolutely nothing of that person Will they decide to go what we're not going to charge for that, because we really it if it had come that. You don't see appeals or whatever. That could cause a problem later on, because we don't really have any evidence of it. Are you actually confessing to cry. The committee where they really could depend anything autumn because they had no truly have However, the advent of his words, but they attempted a few times, you know they sort of all. This is the seems a little too easy acknowledges this kind of forthcoming and whatever is worth asking him he's telling us, and so they did attempt with trying to become a couple times if they could catch him and allied something that they knew, that they didn't think he knew that they knew and uh butt single apply. They tried to catch a warrior lie. He now he's abide. Let me with really really really brutally honest pieces as an opportunity to stop

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without the PS ritual is offering my listeners ten percent off during your first three months visit ritual thought, com, slash, murder, the start, your ritual today that we're talking about some of the things that Jeffrey Dahmer was saying in this interrogation, this brilliant irrigation by Patrick Kennedy. He had gained Jeffrey dollars, trust we, We mentioned that there were times when they were asking questions, but this was further on in an investigation when they discovered that there was body parts in the fridge, and so they wanted to ask him about those body parts about. the the idea, the notion that he would be eating some of his victims and they asked him why he hadn't told them why he hadn't defaults this material earlier. What was Jeffreys bombers?

bonds to that question. Well, basically, he was concerned that they would think less love him. that he didn't want to admit that he's been cannibalize in some of the victims. Here he disliked data that was just two honourable and that they would probably start to judge. I'm sure that they will want to talk to him any more and that that was the end of that. he didn't mean it met right away. You didn't tell them that, but when the medical examiner started talking to this that's the thing you know like based on what you're telling you about numbers of them were finding there's some discretion. Many here planets were finding like of body parts in the fridge wrapped up like a butcher bond paper like its meat. and what really finding a lot of food in the fridge. Mostly. Does these packages like as a kind of game to that conclusion, so they did

about that and such and others there's someone else happening. Were you doing this and then he did admit it, but he was caught a concern that they were going to say that there are forty up with you and yet that that would just be really to too much to do that. He'd gone too far, though, also be asked about the boxes. A myriad of gas at the also had this fifty seven gallon blue plastic What we can call it may not have been more container yeah drama container yeah, I'm in his room, but what was the US about it? reality ass it, but they also found a drill and drill bids. So now the Indus interrogation is also talk of what he does with the drill. Right will be, they found these tools and then they also had found likely dollar hadn't cannibal, weird idea of eventually kind of building a bit of a shrine. I'm even had a picture.

but he drew out for German and that he had been in the gas we found in his note, where you'd only a third of invasion. This bill, big black hair, all my colleague Darth Vader in I'll, ask, and then he had these like skulls that we're gonna become lined up. Some of them are gonna, be painted. Some of them are going to be natural, but she had this all cut. figured out, and so he they did no less. So in some of these goals, if there were a whole number had been well, drilled had been used, so they said you know with spat about, and he said, initially before he actually with killing victims. What he really had wanted to do was to basically incapacitate man that he liked, and these could keep that person with him. So they were kind of be half dead, half a lie that he would draw something and pour water into their brain, and that which is kind of like make them not be able to talk in Munich, fight conceal whatever that they were just gonna, be he can leave them around the apartment if you well, he could set them in a chair. Come on, come on. Tell him about his day,

the ethics dinner, while they're sitting the victim sitting there. You know- and you know that he put them the bad and they could do things through the body. You didn't really want a dead body wanted that incapacitated body, but this time that he did try. This didn't work like one person, is actually able to keep alive for quite a few hours away. He caught got home, get laid out this person on a bed and by the time he got home, person had died, so tat was unsuccessful and when he was trying to do with the dwelling of the old,

women, often ahead, but it isn't what I call that are what I referred to it as one of like a zombie boyfriend. He wanted somebody that he could love that he could feel. Would the affection of the hand that, but he could data- was deserted of manipulating do with what that person, whatever he wanted and down, but it is at that didn't work. So then he ended up going as far as druggie mum and then suffocating them, and then he would be able to do what I really wanted with the Baltic is that without that would ultimately his goal alike as he wanted the body you. You write the very interesting thing about never read before that. He he said that the reason he wanted, the rape them and you didn't want didn't enjoy anal sex himself. He enjoyed all the other aspects, the touching the kissing oral sex, but he didn't like anal sexually. He wanted the ability to be able to raise them and do whatever you want with the body, but he did not want to have to reciprocate

especially that of sex so driving him dreams, like not great reasons for murder, but through this entire irrigation, Pat Kennedy Guess, and to ask him for his, Innovations! What is the motivation for keeping the heads, for example? He would ask me won't. You know he had a strange reasons for things. You know some sometimes a little. I really like the victim. You know I thought he was really happy and I like the body, especially you or the other, how their victim really really care. So much about oh yeah, I'm gonna do to dispose of them, but not necessarily, why keep body part? Maybe some other kind of little trophy just remind himself of the encounter, but energy was happening like a cabin. all that I have even started had this idea of a shining with that Does he.

yeah, I let me nobody than usual fur killers, like just things but in terms of his motivation like it was come like what I gender earlier in that you don't eat, he wanted a very compliant partner. He also did a lot of people to leave. That was a big thing like I think, Dahmer had a lot of issues with regard to abandonment, and even these is maybe stemming from what he was a younger person in that year, you living at home with his family, his dad, I even come from a bad backgrounds like him in his parents were carrying, they had money, there was a welfare, you know something. I don't think that he and his rather Cadillac for anything, but what did have in terms of the family unit was a dad who is very much a worker Hollis, and he was very, very much involved with the work that he was doing very well in the round. Allowed any also had a wife and am therefore Jeff and brother had a mom who did suffer from mental illness, and so there were times when she was like the actor cost little or the time that she was at home. Sometimes she was, it does not,

early available was already present because should be sleeping or she'd be have taken some medication, though she wasn't really feel that the time Jeff remembers of his parents are mostly they were fighting now, but rather the thing with remembered the most. But you know his dad was gone at different times, really do their work. Greenery was off with his girlfriend them became his wife. The man laughed it all that he doesn't care, threw up her hands with this marriage and she took off at the younger son, I'm so there abandonment thing of what people would constantly leading out man so when he died it I want to try and find a partner here. the thing of look as long as they don't leave me, and though there was one instant mentioned in the book where he met somebody who had actually come in from out of town. I think they met it about a spotlight, greyhound bus number, something and

sky within firms or cargo, and so Jeff invited him to come and stay with him and they went to no one had some drinks and they went out did some shopping they may dinner. I mean there's gonna be a weekend together. Almost if you will allow me just said it was like the closest thing to a relationship and ever really had wealth Sunday night, this guy, like I gotta, get back to Chicago Cause, I'm due at work tomorrow and that's when Jeff ACT, I didn't want to believe, though, that we will have one more drink that's when he lay dead. The guy passed out just strangled him and now, as it was gone

never to be seen again what was contained in these interrogations. These confessions, though, was something not so understandable when you talk about while he just was lonely guy and he wanted these people to stay with him and that's why you killed them, but there is other things that dont jive with that. So much in that his sexual feelings. For every bit of that dismemberment process, he talked about some laying the body open from the neck to the genitals and pulling out the viscera and sticking homage ass than did the poor. they have to see those photographs of the others outside of the body and also that he had a particular interest in the hearts of many of these victims as well. The least a few of them anyway and also just the every bit of this talk about like intercourse with

viscera, so yeah Don't worry, I'm very restrained things going on there and I mean that again that does go back to Dahmer, Zito Kind of childhood, in that he would very interested in roadkill like hey, he lived in the Benelux countries typesetting and our universe, buyers. Anyone knows he never told any animals, but though he was very, very interested in going and thinking. Well, can you feel stupid our scrape off the road and go into a bag and bring it home and he had this kind of like shared thing. That was on their property, that he would go when we take these dead animals and with this member them, and he liked the jars of different thing that he would put things then and experimenting basically like

ass it insists on. It would take further fur and this again to come off of the Gatt stall, and that does mean left with the bones like he was really very interested in what we call the inside the thing, the inside of dead thing and a few people who talk with a black eye interests at college of those those kind of people who have that kind of experience. medication, where sort of thinking that you know like this, I interests than all this stuff about dead people are dead things in the insides of things kind of managed around the time, and he would have been maybe going through puberty, somehow this sort of jive with his sexuality that he found me most people would run completely the faithful, but any he found that sexually arousing both inside organs. Are those of this Europe body I mean part of them, had to be really drunk in order to do what he was doing but I mean that

literary interested, and that was what he really was interested in Libya, the inside the dead things he said are absolutely with this conversion. Through this interrogation, they were over the course of all those weeks they were able to identify of, for example, they had the Monday come with photos and and to come to come a walkie to be able to speak with Africa. look at the evidence, the term Dahmer provided, but they were able to get closure on seventeen murders legs to Jeffrey Dahmer, weren't they Yeah yeah yeah editor said the old, like that before DNA Where they had a list of potential victims? You know they were really. I think a lot of these kind of shooting in the dark and they had to find photographs they had to you know they did go and look through some missing of missing people report, but they also had like

one shot me no enemy, which is kind of like really scrambled thirty figure out in peace together who these victims were because it wasn't, as I mean, a kind of different story and away like if you think about fade, Bundy I mean ever body is right: there were bodies that were being found and they have women victims that we're being identified and make that they didn't know the killer. In always, if these body part- and they figure there were somebody that, without their attacking women of a certain age that look a certain way in dollars case like they could come across Dahmer first and then it all kind of untold after that and then a certain kind of peace together. He say all like a lot at home. You know- and this is not how I did it Try to forget looking who did you

who and how do we find out who those people are again it at a time when the energy, which is not something that they could just random Ella, get the personnel and maybe the relatives of the person who says they're missing. You know it was really really, moreover, of a puzzle, a terminal trying to figure out who all these folks were. They laugh Sequoia amazed at Damas recall in terms of like, we could say. Oh, I remembered meeting this guy at this place around this time. You know, and so they were like, while having you actually mean the Ladys, were meaningful encounters for Dahmer by mean he actually had a pretty good memory. It's interesting to when he talks about the living at his grandma's house. First meal looking for work and then and then also were going to church with his grandma, and You know she was a very religious person, but on the weekends and knowing her schedule, he would meet men on Fridays. Wanna keep them,

the Sundays knew the trash was going on Monday. So he routinely did things like pick them up drug them, dismembered them destroyed them disposed them broke up the skeletons with a sledgehammer. He found ways of effectively disposing. His victims, who very much so very much so I mean some- he kept them in the world, is apartment, but I mean between the outfit drums and yield, throwing away and flashing down the toilet, some smaller pieces of body in old. He was at the end of cannibalized, obviously yeah, I mean there is very little beside from what they found in the apartment that he can't you specifically over the head with a skull it was born or that known because he, like the look of it, the way it fell, the war. You know it's just something that meant something to him, but I mean, for the most part,

He would actually to able to dispose of most of its victims and and- and I have no one kind of come across as they all my god. You know, I think we got bypass here, letter hopeful the police and then having them investigate figuring out in alike. But how did this by yet hearing? the perpetrator. I mean he he was not on anyone's radar. Like I mean there wasn't as though I remember someone just recently saying to me, like you know, how could you ve got away with so much when people knew there were the serial killer in their midst? As like they didn't know, there was a serial killer. I mean there was yet there was infinitely men that I'm sure in some cases people were reporting, but again they were like, This is a healthy young man, like the man looking to get into any trouble like he probably just ran off, or he decided he didn't. live in Milwaukee anymore, you notice has gone and they please didn't really do that much I mean they might taken a report or whatever, but aiming at that? There were really searching for any of these. These guys there,

seemed to be a little bit of knowledge within the gay community. Like I remember reading your seen an interview with somebody who said you know there would be guys I would come to these clubs and that every once in a while, you ok, we haven't seen so though, I wonder where he is, but I mean no one really suspected that anything was goin on where they were being killed, maybe other colleagues. I hang around here anymore. They may be, they moved or other. Maybe there in a different area, the city. They were able to come up with reasons why not only someone who, with their one day, was not the man. You write that this the confession that he was giving was leaked to the press by a janitor that worked in the district attorney's office. They thought it might have been Patrick added. He didn't say anything did not submit any interviews, but this convention was leaked to the press and story, as everybody knows was just massive because, as it were, emerging heads infringes then cannibalize, Cannibal, accountable, cannibalism in necrophilia, yet

everyone's attention and the press soothingly. It really exploded over this case, didn't actually and because of the timing that it being a recurring in like one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, that's when he was arrested was in July of ninety one to thirty years ago. This summer for your information, and can you didn't do about but yeah so like thirty years ago and the like at that time? swim like CNN and some of the twenty four hour news stations were Chaska. Kick it off right, so I think when

sadly the story about the candle serial killer in Milwaukee, they did they had the world media show up for all the reasons that you mentioned, but I think also did because of that likely may be needed staff to be showing you hour after hour and they needed to follow and they needed a story where they were going to be developments and press conferences, and though I mean I think this case horrible as it was in his terrible as it was for all the family members and victims. Families yield a neat news, media really kind of jumped on it at the same time remember remarking saying this to you as well as the silence of the lambs is huge now turning away of real franchise, but silence of the lambs wasn't of very very successful book and very successful movie just months before this. You don't realize that the right to life imitates art right,

I think the movie came out unlike February of ninety ninety one and death was caught in July, so I invite people magazine the week after he was arrested. I referred to it as you know, a real life, violence of the Lamb nightmare in Milwaukee and though they really jumped on that he'll. The idea of a serial killer enemy either

Amber the Cannibal Island in the neck or failures of Dahmer, but there was a period in their where he was actually skinny from a visit them. Then he had said to the detective J. I thought it might become a cool too just where the skin, in all enemies started on your friend from what the movie the plot of violence, the lambs it so they get. Definitely people made that connection of like wow, you know like what is going on in terms of budget is tiny little apartment in the lobby and all this evil that is happening now, Patrick candidate. Through this whole thing there are people once like always says, threw him on all the of the ices to him in his partner Murphy that they were suffering from sparkled Stockholm syndrome, meaning they got to closer Jeffrey Dahmer. They couldn't be objective. Tell us what you write about the effect of this whole thing on our Patrick Kennedy, but also

It was for him to see a psychologist. The disposal Bobo that yeah, but I think that the F b I mean that, in view of the way that their portrayed in the book, I think give Greeley much. How did the detective Kennedy and his partners or a slob centres I go. This is our case and we don't really need these guys to come in and they were saying all sorts of things. Guys are getting too close to this aspect. You know they were quite amazed and thought really put forward the idea, How do you know he's operating along like how do you know that you never have like a partner whose complicit, in all of this and other, were making some suggestions that it'll Kennedy and an die his partner? Could they couldn't really put their finger on like why that biggest knew that that was the case like they guess again, because they felt that new job well enough to realise a loner live, have really any friends and certainly use, bring a friend into what he was doing. What he was doing with all very on his own very isolated was offer his own pleasure. He was very selfish.

then you know with all this, for meetings is only that, even if it meant killing somebody else, I'm so got some immigrants got it back a little bit. You know in terms of how they they certainly didn't, feel that they were going to close this aspect, Emily felt that they were using. I wouldn't I manipulating Dahmer, but I mean that they were sort of using thing that they felt that Dahmer would would respond and positively and that they know that just keep No, I think you are we dealing with almost like pattern, did behind a come, a friend gas, maybe not I believe the guy about it. They will have a lot of friends and if I try to prevent his friend, maybe it'll get us a little further. His wife actually Kennedys wife was quite concerned about his mental state and in dealing with all their case and was really worried that he was going to actually become an alcoholic. yeah, but he was gonna start to drink again, even after being

over for a really long time. These cases are so awful. I could see you being driven to drink and really worry about that in Ireland, but she really is all I want you to go to council and I think you should see somebody they actually did bring in. I think of my colleague MR I call it is determined to come talk to them, but for the most part they Canada said. You know what we think we can analyse I mean it was a pre, atrocious case, but I think for the most part, they really did feel that they could handle it. The case really, with with Kennedy for a law. Time after inside. I would almost say like right up until this before he died. He and I were even discussing like maybe there could be a book someday began mean for years and years afterwards Those who wanted to do an interview or to talk about gas and would come to the Milwaukee Police Department to say who could be too. He was like the Donner, detective

Oh you got it out the Kennedy either Dahmer detective and does so ill. He was. He was constantly sorted being asked about the case. What was Jeff really like? How did you manage to hear all of these warble things might not want to travel. The guy Kennedy went on Continue this work as a police officer and a homicide detective for ten years, so he did that. I think up to two thousand and one. And then he decided wandered about the school, and so he went back to call it. Any active became a criminal justice and instructive teaching other people who were wanting to go into law enforcement, but Can you tell me that you know the first week when we start showing off the students with torture, you said always hard like three months. They would say. Oh my god, this is the guy that that dominated active enough though he would say yeah? I'm gonna to try to a little bit about how we worked with Amr in order to to solve the murder you know one figure out who all these people work, but it's not gonna, be the only thing, I'm talking about other things that I'm gonna be teaching here so

He was always kind of associated with it. You know, like you, those associated with the Dahmer came and are they set right up until the old months before bird once a month before he passed away. He was at a films article that I met him out in Madison was gone and it was about the way the document about the Donner case, though he was asked to be part of a q and a and then you know I were talking about my article and then possibly working on a book So I mean this career, changing life changing pays- and I always did me the remarkable rather remarkable things about it- is that this idea, of how like a phone call or certain things can happen to you, and I can just change the trajectory of your life. You know he gets his call. He and his partner there. Next upon IRAN Gate common by mental homicide, you guys have to go check it. but I mean it could have been another detective. This is easily right, but

with Patrick, and here he happened to be the right detective for this particular sat back and then they went from there. There was talk and they're always would be when you get somebody like this, that Sir accused of seventeen murders that there's other jurisdictions that are interested and potentially speaking to him. One was because he did do a military term in Germany that they might want to speak this people, women and their about unsolved murders and clear their books. But it was very interesting that you right how Jeffrey Dahmer responded The things like request from Hollywood Florida police regarding the disappearance and murder of Adam Wall. She was found much later. Just his head was found Nineteen eighty one disappearance from a seer store, which I have

Everybody knows that the John Walsh then became this victims advocate and America's most wanted out of the host of and producer or co producer that program. What was Jeffrey Dahmer's respond to that there was other victims in other jurisdictions. Despite his confession,.

You know I well, I guess I guess he felt as though, like I'm telling you guys everything you know like. I told you everything that you need to know, and then all of them that I have explained and end that describing these are, though these are the only victim that there are, I dont, think any police anywhere. They came across a killer like him in your anyone who committed more than one murder would end. Also like hey you know, not a domestic market, for example, were spoken Billy than other spouse, but with its like a stranger on stranger kind of case. I think that is pretty much a protocol that they will do oh history and who that person is all the different places they lived and where all the different cities that they were and maybe visited during that period of time, that they think crimes are being committed and they will see. Are there any other victims, homicide an unsolved cases where the others sort of things match up and

of the kind of victim that was profiled or as circumstances or m owes you know, is anything similar that we can maybe see if this person and to be there and and could potentially be responsible for that current unsolved crime? They did know that Patrick had been florida- and it was around that time that Adam had gone missing. come again because of the fact that they found a head and then when they were investigating just ten years later, the worse. Related. I mean they found a head and afraid and they found the skull, though they really felt like this, a good half Peter. We really think that we ve got somebody here. So He asked him about it. They brought people from that police department to my wife,

it has to require gap and ask him about it. I'm lucky very offended. You talk, as he said. You know. These are like a little boy like a six year. Old boy goes, I'm only interested in man, I'm a good point out to him that some of his victims had been made teen age and that, but he always maintained. I thought they were older. Like there was a fourteen year old, he thought he would like more than eighteen nineteen in the matter when it was seventeen, he thought it was in his early twentyth when he saw the picture about em all she said this is like a little kid and I'm not interested in little kids. Yours, you rode, through the Jeffrey farmers, were concerned about what Patrick Kennedy thought of him: an awful detective Murphy, but also society at large and what is family with thick once they discovered all the details of his murders and the other details like necrophilia. But despite that, he had received correspondence while he was in jail. Was he surprised at the celebrity itself,

the kind of celebrity that he received. I realize I don't really know I mean I guess initially. It probably did surprise him a little bed because he was coming to these these interrogation meetings in an interrogation remaining saying it. I'm getting all the letter than getting somebody's asking me to review a book about another serial killer. You know and and them- and I think after he was incarcerated- was like the most enormous prisoner thee had where he will, where he was being kept, and so he was getting all these letters and everything I think initially probably would be the same for everybody, except for those that are really seeking out publicity. Some serial killers really loved the publicity that they get, but I mean a Jeff case. I think it was pretty much benign about all think, but once he did start to get people wanting to correspond with them or sent in pictures are saying things keen on my biggest were interested in him because of their labour

again, but you know, I think, initially a kind of was surprising. Em and puzzling even really understand it, but then ass time went on my thinking. Caught have enjoyed it a little bit in all likely said that does somebody and want to see him when he was in prison, what not gone to see him but had gone to see another person imprisoned and happened to see Jeffrey was there and they said you know he's not a different there. When they had first met. You know like he was: he was well known in that prison. You know people would want by and be whispering storm. I realized every dollar or high gaslight wanting to know who he was and what name was for the first part of his incarceration. He was in isolation, but you know he was not happy imprison, meaning that I deserved to be here at God. He felt he deserved the dye for what he had done David. You know they don't have the death penalty in Wisconsin, so he was, to be facing years and years of life and day I'll, probably the rest of his life in jail and

he was just do not like there. He will not happy there, though. Eventually, he did ass to be put into the rural population, and they all said them like the officials at the prison setting out the death sentence? Jeff. You know you remarked man, people do you know because of this elaborate leisure, so famous, we don't we don't want to do that to you, but he insisted any that I'll take my chances, so I thinking do that. Actually he was marked and that someone would eventually get em and when he was attacked here. didn't have any different rules on him at all. When that's a very hard thing review of someone's attacking. You is something you know your instinct is to stop that right at the top level,

and then he didn't have any marks. Arming blues. Is there anything else you basically allowed himself to be beaten? It was you do right that he said that he had formed religion in prison, found garden imprison, so he continued. I guess with the work that Patrick Kennedy did saying that listen. This is how you could make a man to God and to these people's victims of these families, but, most importantly to God, so it seem like Jeffrey Dahmer went along that path. While you in prison and then must have contributed to the decision for him to take himself out of protective custody. As you say, vitalizing, contrary I think that in the end, you don't you did fine, some key, some whatever he could

it'll through village and, like you seem to get quite involved in NATO that trade with the present chaplain their got to know him three well, and I think I think of it. I mean he was very shy. Led Jeff was a very shy person, but I do think you like to have you kind of conversation. You know and the here what other people thought about religion. Then you know how that fit into his mind, set and and yonder mean against two. It was something to do with the focus on while he was in prison is very interesting through a new right. The Kennedy observes when Jeffrey Dahmer recalls in recount the crimes, especially when they ve got him to go through quite logical order. Them remember everything he could so he undertook this task very seriously, Patrick noticed TAT. He would go into a sort of a trance almost reliving some of this stuff, but he would definitely sound almost robotic and be in a trance recalling what he had done so long before

Right almost veto very emotionless really does cut a deal with the fat, and not really sort of expressing remorse me, I think it was remarkable, but I don't think he really expressed it when he was describing what he was doing. It was very mechanical. The description it's interesting through the support that is family still had for him during this than afterwards. yeah. Well, you gotta think is probably the most visible in the most vocal in terms of supporter Johnson and that you ok

I came all right from the beginning of a very apologetic to the victims of the families in and apologize you really for what his son had done, but you know you never stopped carrying and loving son. I think Lionel Jeffreys Dad Little Dahmer, really screwed truly believed that there was mental illness and ill. He had gotten mental illness from a member of the family under that had them how affected o Jeff in terms of what he became. His brother credit disappeared. He gave his name and as far as I know, I mean he might keep in touch with the family by the mean at all, because anything to do with Jeff the mom apparently Joyce as she was living in California she's path now, but she and usually like where everything was happening when it was Allah unfolding in Milwaukee and they were to reveal day after day discovery more and more I'm she retreat. He didn't really have anything to do with him at that point, but TAT he did get in touch with him as he was proceeding. cord and then afterwards that she would have Sunday night.

Sunday night calls him when he was in prison. So she get kind of rally around and support him towards the end, not what he did. Obviously, but just in terms of like this is my son and when he was killed, she said you know about that, should make everybody happy now. You know, he's been beaten to dash and he's dead. Now. Selection male betcha put everybody's mind at ease. he was saying this kind of a angry kind of away. You know, I think she believed that you know I mean yeah. You deserve to be imprisoned for all this time, but he didn't deserve to die the we did and so tell us a little bit about the this manuscripts, This tells woman more about your interaction with Patrick Kennedys widow and this project here presently

yeah. Well, I, after I had done this. Article is after we'll Pat had passed away. He had a heart attack at home and he was by himself accepted that the widow that I'm talking with your name is Patricia actually, Patrick, second wife. So this is not the wife of these very to during the timing investigating Dahmer that was his first place and the mother of three children, but Our second wife party is the one that I was dealing with and after Patrick's passing, I had sent her a message to greener, really expect nothing, my shocking and remorse and ended meal sadness, but she had lost him full suddenly, so abruptly use only fifty nine years old he had had just had, but little bit go. Maybe a month earlier, his grandfather was born. Feminism is the all mankind cut out in the middle of the life, and so I was really shocked by the whole thing in really kind of quite upset likes breathless to her, but I did

I do want to go ahead with the article, and so I wanted to dawn and published. I will send it to you, so I did and she back to me and said you know, like you, did a nice job in terms of really kind of getting a good idea, the relationship between Dahmer and Kennedy, and she said you know I'd like you to take the note, take everything that that lend your gave you and Maybe you can with it so it took a couple a year the kind of report altogether any at all Patrick voice. But I mean there was some areas it needed to be kind of veal, organised in court it is said and done something fleshed out quite a bit of their personal life. Part of his story. Of that I got mapping out logistic. What does this investigation by cut that out and them and yeah basically just really wanted the kind of tell the whole story of of Dahmer, but also to use it as an opportunity to be a bit of a legacy to Kennedy as well? So does at the back there's a little bit about very brief vile about Patrick Life and legacy. and down, and he had just basically

the kind of some kind of came together. Initially, I had some help in this book. It come out initially in nineteen February, two thousand and sixteen with it bomber detective that time it was very, very small print runs and that a lotta demand for a lot of people contacting the insane. I love to get my hands on a copy that book that the possible and damp gruesome, neutral friends that are in situ crime, and I really read a lot of it. I was able to connect with sea fantastic folk that wild blue practice and that they take a look at it. A goblin Bulgaria issue at first ourselves about how that ok, about an that came about very quickly like MRS earlier this year that I sent them some stuff with the of your Heyward, you guys like to do something with this. That take me back and said absolutely, and I think, also to being the thirtieth anniversary, there's also the Netflix Belmont Gonna be coming over the next year about Dahmer like an episodic, show about Dahmer. So your work

to me that it all there still so much interest in the story, but there really is a lot of people who are quite fascinated by Dahmer interested to know more about him in and try to figure out like why you love the way he was. I don't know this book helps to that extent, but tat, certainly by having access to somebody that really did get to know Dahmer very well and talk about his crimes and entered a what happened there. I think that that is an important part of Patrick storing it. I didn't want it to not have anything happen to it, because he passed away I sat the other, no reason why his story can still come out so so I made it kind of a personal labor of love mission to this get Patrick Story out there. Anyway, I could absolutely it

an extraordinary look at one of the most brilliant police investigations ever one, the most important ones, given the gravity of everything and what was at stake because of a lawyer might have been able to speak to him, especially given that the DNA I without his cooperation, there's just no way this story would have been told, but also that this identification of many of those victims is also the glowing tribute to Patrick all this police work, but and also of of just a tribute to what he was able to gain from Jeffrey Dahmer. And now this book, grilling Dahmer, is for all those people who think they know about the Jeffrey Dahmer story. Without this interrogation and without Patrick Kennedys interrogation, we would not get too

realize so many of the things that we now believe and know about Jeffrey Dahmer. So I think this is essential. Reading grilling Dahmer for anybody that thinks they know the entire story. So I want to thank you very much Robin Mirage for coming on and talking about your new book. Grilling Dahmer, the interrogation of them a walkie cannibal on Wild blue press and just for tell us what, where they might take a look at this, and also when is the release date. I'm going out later this year. I dont know if I have the exact really state that people can actually order the. the book method available on Amazon and down. Because look, I think over, to the publishers, allowed repressive, dot com and yeah. I think Amazon it'll be available. Ensuring bookstores and it'll be out there on the books illegal right. Now it is available. Now, yes

very much Robin Mirage: Grilling Dahmer, the interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal, it's a brilliant book. Thank you. So much for this interview. You have a great evening. Goodnight yeah, thanks, Stan Ticket. Without depositing a penny, you ve already started saving for your newborns higher education. Children born to Pierre residents in two thousand nineteen, and after have one hundred dollars waiting in a Keystone scholars, account part of the p, a five twenty nine knowledge and Career savings programme. Keystone scholars helps you get an early start for reward in finnish view, your account at tea. five, twenty nine. I come slash Keystone and watch your savings grow alongside your child, discover more at pee five, twenty nine died comes Lodge Keystone. She wants to be a doctor. he's going to build houses just like his grandfather. Kids have big and wonderful dreams. You can help them come true by planning for their future education with

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