I don't get the flavors of computer back in a big way, we're talking, pumpkin, doughnuts, pumpkin, muffins, pumpkin munchkins, don't holes, ovoid, pumpkin, coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen copy, pumpkin, latte, scanned the exciting new cinnamon sugar, pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin flavored everything at Dunkin, America runs on Dunkin and Pumpkin K Cup pod still limited time, offer participation can kick it used under license, and Now I found from Geico Motorcycle it took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, these be the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah, but the far less appealing blobfish

come on to add insult to injury. You could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. Blog talk, radio.

You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime, history, room murder with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening this up as What is brought to you by audible, roads, leading name in digital audio books, Nanette Johnston, Pacard a sexy,

more say, and now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, please be the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah, but The far less appealing blobfish Come on to add insult to injury, you could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent, or more on motorcycle insurance like to knit meet men at the gym. And through personal ads soon after she began dating Millionaire Bill Mclaughlin HE, moved her in her kids into his bayfront home in Newport Beach, but one man was never enough for Nanette Eric Naposki you are NFL linebacker lover, but filled the nets wilder cravings together they scheme to your fiance's fortune, their own. When was

Laughlin was gun down. Authorities had suspicions, but no proof. Blitzer nominated writer, Caitlin Rother explores this chilling story of a woman who seemed to have it all until justice. Finally had its day. The book we're profiling this evening is I'll. Take care of. With my special guest journalist and author Caitlin Rother welcome back to the program and thank you for agreeing this interview. Caitlin Rother, oh thanks for having me on again. It's always fun now it's always my pleasure in our audience as well. Now, let's get to this my typical question, Without giving too much away, why did you

are you interested in this story and how did you come to write this book I'll? Take care of you? What the photo actually came out of another book that I wrote a few books ago called dead reckoning, right, police department, the same prosecutor and actually one of the same defense attorneys were all involved in this previous case same DA investigator as well, who, took it up in the cold case, but I was working on the other book which came out some years ago and the detective sergeant that I had been working with getting information from and following along and calling and nagging him for for various things. He said

I'm actually working on this arrest warrant we're going to go after this woman. She was a piece of work, and I said oh tell me about this case, so it ended up being this case, which was a cold case by then. It took fifteen years Burton NET Anhur linebacker lover Eric Naposki to be arrested for the murder of Bill Mclaughlin. But it was just interesting that I was able to follow it from the beginning of this second phase and all the way through to trials and sentence things and and what have you and was able to work with some of the same people on this other book, so very different, though in terms of the way that they handled the investigation. So the the dead reckoning was the Skylar delay own case an they handle that beautifully. This one did not go so well, the first stage of the investigation in the initial initial stage of it. Yes, I interviewed about the u about dead reckoning a few years ago, so even thought about three or four times now. What, with your

projects yeah, so. Yeah yeah? This is, if I could just add a little bit, but the things that actually grabbed me

more, currently in a more timely way was. I was drawn to this case, not just because I knew some of the characters, but because I really feel like money, corrupt- and this case drew me for some of the same reasons that the other case did for the greed and the materialism that you see. You know portrayed in shows like the real housewives of Orange County and the OC, which was the show that was on tv some years ago, but just the way that people seem to think that you know money and appearances are so important that that's one of the more thematic reasons that this case really really drew me in, because I feel like that's one of our major problems in our society today and in our culture of how much important people put on money, an appearances- and you know that leads to some people, stealing from other people,

on committing fraud and having so much cosmetic surgery that you can't even recognize them anymore. So those were a couple of the things that men that ended up doing right. Well, let's get to that right now: let's, because you do I congratulate you on a very, very vivid trail of these characters. So, let's start with the most colorful character, I think is Nanette Johnston Packard his various names be along the way issues end up married four times so, Tell us about internet, she didn't take her third husband's name, but to tell us about

the net and a little as much as you explain in the book. Tell us about the net. Well, that's a very complicated question. I could probably take half an hour to answer I'll, try to keep it short, but she was a very different kind of person from whom I've written about before. So I was also drawn to this case. For that reason I like to to have a different, even though there's so many murders out there is, there are only so many more

that are interesting to me and I that are worth the book and this woman. The more that I got into this case, the more I just could not believe just how extreme she was. She was an extreme liar and extreme cheat and fraud, and she was incredibly sexual and manipulative and seductive, and I just kept thinking to myself what is it about her that drew in so many of these men? And what can people learn from this book because I don't want to just you know: I'm not writing a book about murders to sensationalize violence. I am writing about murder to try to figure out what makes people do these things to other people. What is it about them? What happened to them was there anything in their background as a child, and I was not really able to pin that down with her because she was so good at creating these different. You know faces for herself that it was difficult, so I did end up getting some answers from her third husband who you know got close to her and I I think actually may be. The only has the next you know other than maybe her first husband when she was still seventeen when she first got married. Her third husband, I it sounds to me like she really fell in love with him, but he ended up finding out a few things about her, but he still didn't know who she really was, and that was to them that what somebody who was different to everybody she met she law.

What about who she was. She adopted other people's successes as her own. She told people that she was someone. She wasn't an she had cosmetic surgery to make herself into something she wanted to be an frankly. I don't know even what that was other than she wanted to paint herself. As you know, as some of these reality stars do you know I have money, I'm pretty. I have a lot of men very narcissistic wanted so many clothes that you know her entire closet was full of clothes. In fact, many of them still had price tags on them. It was like she needed to surround herself with expensive things to make herself feel worthy, and yet, at the same time she also

Was I don't know if this is, you know she was pretending to be a super mom or really felt like she was a super mom, but she attended every sports game of of her sons, an every dance recital for her daughter. She brought for kids cupcakes on their birthday, even when they were in college, and she would you know doing some of these things dating all these men and getting money and spending money. Other peoples money on her kids. So maybe they thought she was a great mom too. I don't really know, but she used this mom saying Draw in these men to make them feel like they were part of a family, and that was one of her manipulative mechanisms. So in the end, though, what my theory was that the net really just wanted to be somebody other than herself. I told it was a long answer: yeah, that's not so long now will get to the beginning of this story, then an will talk about how she

puts an ad in a magazine. A lot of people would be online, but she put an ad in a magazine for wealthy men and tell us what that ad was well. You have to remember this was one thousand nine hundred and ninety four. So this was before the days of online dating so today she probably that's truematch dot com or something, but, let's be honest, match dot com doesn't allow you to look for wealthy men. Only, although I guess you could put that in your profile, but anyway, she advertised in a singles match

and then called singles connection, and she said for wealthy men only that was the title of the ad she dressed up in this white Feather Boa Anne had on this little come hither outfit frou, frou hair. It was a boudoir shot essentially, but head and shoulders, and she basically said I'll, take care of you. If you take care of me- and so she pretty much came out and said it so mill, Mcloughlin answered this ad and the police know this, because they found a stack of of note back and back and forth, presumably because they were cards in a stack and

was very meticulous, and so he had a second amendment. Earliest one was at the bottom, which was the first one and it was addressed to him in the mail. So it's clear that you know he was answering her ad because her his kids did not want to believe that their dad would have answered a personal ad, but there there was proof that he did it. He did mail this thing to her anyway, but she, you know pretty much, gave her measurements and high heat and and so

bunch of stuff. That really ends up not being true. I don't know when she met him. She she told him. She had an advanced college degree when in fact you know and she graduated high school early. She was a valedictorian. She had finished college earlier than you know the four years and she had an advanced business degree. Well, in fact, she dropped out of high school and she was not valedictorian. She went to work at a gym and she was really good at sales, and so she got promoted quickly. But all this stuff about her education was completely made up. So he moved her into his his house pretty quickly and they got along great an You know he told his cousin Barbara, who I quote in the book. You know I. I really met this. You know pretty lady and I really like her a lot. We get along really well and tentative it out anyway. She she she

weasel their way into the house and into his eventually into his checkbook. So now cool backwards. A little bit. So, let's introduce Mister Mclaughlin, William Francis Mclaughlin and and the the the difference and in nineteen. Ninety four Who is twenty nine? He was fifty five. So a few years earlier, three years earlier, she's twenty six he's fifty two. Double the age, sounds sounds right.

So you're because was newly divorced. He has three grown kids. His youngest son was, I think, nineteen at the time when they met and his older hit two daughters and one was in Japan, teaching and the other one was teaching at a high school nearby and he had you know, thought he was done with the and the as you know what dad essentially, but his son ended up getting into a skateboarding accident, meaning that a drunk driver. You know random over here this horrible brain injury. He was in a coma, they weren't sure he was going to come back. So when he came out of it, he had some deficiencies and one of them was that he nobody got upset or when he got very anxious. He when he tried to talk, he sounded like he was drunk. So it's

to understand him. He was kind of slurry and he wasn't able to walk as well. He was wasn't as athletic, obviously as he used to be, and he still had a hard time. Writing as well, so he's working on that with the therapy and he was living in the house and one of you know he's very frustrated, so he was actually using drugs and drinking more than his dad appreciated. So you know know like you need to get get into and and I'm in any made a contract a contract and he had some drug testing kits in the refrigerator. And meanwhile, then that was living with both of them in the house and she had her. Two kids would come and stay give she shared custody and they moved into bills. Daughter's room.

Pretty quickly, and so the older dot bill's daughters were a little taken aback by that, while we barely lasted and she's just moved in and moved her kids then and wow right, so they were not thrilled with her. He thought she was. You know the greatest thing you know he was

to get time with her? Clearly? He was also a very bright man, a very educated man, and he was a wealthy man because he had invented a medical device that separated plasma from blood. He invented the with a partner and then subsequently got into this major legal battle with this partner, and so there were royalties that have been coming in to the tune of a couple million a year and then, once this lawsuit kept going and going and going, it was very expensive, very frustrating for him. They put some of those royalties into a fund that he had did not have access to while they were in the middle of this lawsuit. So he was wealthy, but there was a bunch of money that he didn't have access to. So meanwhile, he and and that we're working on a number of different projects, real estate project, various other things that he was trying to to deal with them related technology to the blood device. So he was, he was busy working away, but he was struggling financially in the last year of of his life. So things were things were kind of in

with his finances, but she has some plans to change that. No, you pay this portrayal of these people. What to do what it really meant that look like in comparison will say to this, educated bill, Mclaughlin, rich guy, he out of it, Nasty Divorce, so it he was very interested in this woman was what he thought was inject some real. You know some. Happiness in his life for a change. What did she look like? What did he look like and what was the relationship just look like from outsiders, friends of bill will say what did it look like? How does she look physically yeah physic Lee and sort of just it if they they went out with people. What did we did? It seem like the it was like the dynamic of the couple right. Ok, she

she had. She was of indian as and from India, descent, not native American, and right though her father was indian. Her mother was from the Chicago area, so she was half way eight and half Indian, so she has a different kind of look about her, but you know you, wouldn't you wouldn't know from looking at her that she was of indian descent, so

she had dark eyes. She had dark, really kinky curly kind of frizzy hair and she started hollering at, and it also looks like it was some bleach. So it's kind of hard to tell you know which was what was the son and what was that the the hair color, but she was almost blonde, which you know for somebody with with indian descent. You could imagine their dark, dark, haired, dark, eyed and that you know different tend to the stand site. I saw her in court. She didn't really look olive, but she was. She definitely didn't. Look, you know completely white, so anyway, she was attractive at the time she was very athletic. Very much in shape went to the gym all the time and apparently dressed to the nines.

She was very well dressed and that's partly because bill was buying her stuff bill was, you know, bought her some breast implants Bill Tucker on vacation bill. It said she didn't have to work as long as she was living in the house, because he was going to take care of her. I mean that was the deal right, so she had plenty of time to on her appearance bill On the other hand, he was also athletic. He he did manage to keep himself in good shape. He was a decent. Looking guy, you know, I wouldn't say it was a gorgeous man, but you know he was not bad looking, but he was that young. You know he had money and but he was he was in good shape and he did work at it and apparently he would die. I don't think he dressed up a lot, but you know they had a nice place on the beach and you know they would go out. He would bring her to on business dinners,

which was something I guess his wife, his ex wife, didn't really like to do and she didn't enjoy the business aspect of it and, and that really did Nanette was trying to get every soak up every little piece of information that she could from bill and learn from him, and I think he enjoyed that. I think he enjoyed that. She was engaged in his life in a way that his his Ex wife had not been an so by all appearances bills. Friends all thought they were this. You know I wouldn't say the loving couple but exclude is couple they got along well, he was affectionate with her. He was very affectionate with his kids there's those kind of all kinds of snapshots of him. You know cuddling with her kids on the couch, taking them on his private plane and taking them on his private boat. You know so she's living the high life and seems like everything is great, but he also is spending a couple days a week in LAS Vegas. He flies there in his private plane.

'cause. He is establishing residency for tax purposes. He saving half a million dollars a year doing this now, while he's away in LAS Vegas she's at the gym. You know supposedly staying in shape. She is not taking her big diamond engagement ring with her to the gym. She is going to the gym, posing as a young, hot single athletic woman on the prowl, and she is meeting and dating men left and right and sleeping with them in fact sleeping with them in Bill Mclaughlin's house, while he is in LAS Vegas. Which takes so much chutzpah. I can't even tell you now: why would she do that? If she did she was is a motivation. You believe at that time. Is it? Did you not Did she not understand the what the ramifications could be if she were caught or was it more of a section drive? What would you attribute it to I'm, not really sure

sure. To be honest, I I'm not sure I want to assume anything I can speculate. I think she was very sexually driven. I do know that I can say that for sure I think she just thought she was so damn clever. She was. Fool everybody. You know and she was going to get what she wanted and what she needed that nobody was going to figure it out, because I mean that seems to be a pattern with these narcissistic killers that you know, I'm small. Better than everybody else, and I'm going to get away with this, because I'm so good at this I'm so good at lying

fool everyone, and everyone believes me and they'll just do what I want, and I just manipulate them, and I want these men to give me sex, and I want these men to think that I'm a successful businesswoman and that this car that bill gave me in these clothes that bill bought me and these other things that bill gave me, including his own accomplishments, which she took his her own and told stories that she had invented this blood device, which is just ridiculous, considering how old she was and what her education truly was. These people believed her and they wanted to meet bill. They want bill because she told them that bill was her. You know father figure, business mentor and they were thinking hey some of them. You know hey. I can get some of his money in and invested in my business so they were believing her stories, and so she was basically getting the admiration and the respect and the sex and the nice things from

re direction, so she was getting what she wanted and she was pretending to be who she wanted to be and she was getting away with it so motivation. I think she had a big black hole in her soul. She was trying to fill with Cash and what this sex- and I don't know why she had it or where it came from, but it seems like she, she definitely had a big black hole, inertial, it's as if they were together for three years product totally. Now at what point does she she's always going to gym she's always working out?

Did she meet Eric Mccloskey and please tell us about Eric Mccloskey, Eric, no Pasti, and then that means actually a couple years before bill is murdered, so they meet as friends. If the gem he's he's the guy who's, the NFL you know want to be. Essentially, he has played five games in the NFL and it keeps getting injured, so he's get gets a walk on with the with the New England Patriots editions any makes it by crawling through a hole in the fence, and you know running really fast and getting them notice.

And they were a great athlete, really great athlete just kept getting injured, so he could never make it in the NFL. He didn't actually do well in the World Football League, so he was on a team in Barcelona called the Barcelona Dragons. He actually had his own fan club with five thousand fans, but he just could not make it here in the: U S, and so in between you know, he'll laying in you know getting injured in healing and training and running often trying to audition and I'm getting signed and then injured. You know it back and forth back and forth back and forth. He was a bouncer and a physical trainer, and so while he was you know in in the Newport Beach area, he met and that at that and they start hanging out, and I guess they were friends. So she would tell him that she was dating all these different guys and he didn't really know much about Bill Mclaughlin, but

She never told anybody at the gym that she was engaged to Bill Mclaughlin. She made everybody think that he was just a business partner, so Erica passkey he had been married and divorced, had two kids and he never sent them any money. He was always behind in his child support, as it turns out by the time he was ultimately arrested in two thousand and nine. He was about one hundred thousand dollars behind 'cause. He had been married again with two more kids. Have four kids never paying his child support? He was one hundred thousand dollars in debt, but at this time this is the only after two kids. So he's he's a dad. You know he's telling the net he's a dad and he gets, I think, sucked in a little bit too 'cause. He apparently likes kids and he's hanging out with men, s, kids and you know by

Year of nineteen, ninety four they were dating, so they decided to start trying to try to date. So they've been friends already for year, two and started dating and initially you know it wasn't an exclusive thing, but they were getting more serious and or at least Eric saw so, and he took her home to meet his parents and thanksgiving of nineteen. Ninety four and Annette took him to her sisters, wedding, that same trip back e down in the Maryland area. An introduced him as her boyfriend. Meanwhile, Bill Mclaughlin is thinking. They're engaged right now bill was telling some people that he wasn't sure he wanted to marry her. He was just trying to keep her happy with this ring uh and things were starting to go a little funny and it's unclear whether he was figuring anything out or not. But he did tell his brother right before he was killed that he thought someone was

after him and he he didn't say who. I don't remember what you listed was that there you go. No, it was great, it was great. I mean it covers a lot of things. I would have asked the now You say that they were no net and and bill were bill had her involved in some things, trying to generate some income and utilized whatever talents he thought did she might have or she. To bed to him that she did. I wouldn't say it was. For that reason. I would say that she was trying to soak up whatever he was doing, and so she was more in a support capacity. I think at that point just to know, but I want to establish how she came to have I mean he must have had someone like a brother or someone to advise them that you know you don't really or at least he would know himself being a businessman himself that that not to give her access to, this money. How did she come to have access

to be able to do some things. Here's the problem, you're applying, rationality, yeah. So no, I totally agree with you. You would think an egg but he wondered afterwards. You know build a smart man. What happened here right? Well, he gave her access to his check book for the household bills that he gave her access to one account Kay, and I guess he just didn't think that she was a bad person that was gonna. Take that you know liberty to start moving money around based, but between other accounts. So one thing he did do is he talked to his accountant who you know basically he said you know now that wants to get married. You know what should I do and and and the account basically said well, you know you should want you just wait. You know

not going anywhere. If she really wants to marry, you she'll still want to marry you, and you know he was having some difficulties an at one point. Actually in nineteen? Ninety four, as as things were, getting very tight and he was having some liquid liquid iti problems, he even said to his daughters. You know: do you think she's with me for my money and they said yes?

And so you know it's hard to say exactly, but I think she must have just told him what he wanted to hear and he trust I think he trusted her. So all she had access to was one account and what she ended up doing. That was was, like, I said, soaking up all this knowledge and with you know he did a. He did, make her a trustee to his the state. You know that that he were dead, of course, even when he did that she was. She was in there right away. She kept saying she wanted to have his child, and you know he thought they were. You know going to build a life together, at least that's what she wanted. I don't know that he wanted that necessarily, but I think he was just trying to get back on a float, because this this legal, this lasted been dragging on a dragon on and then finally, in October of nineteen, ninety four- and he was murdered in December finally got word that he had won, or at least you know have won that round in

with things and so he and Annette were thinking that about nine million dollars was about to come floating in the things suddenly changed in October of nineteen. Ninety four right right now is there any she's living with her two kids. He has kids bill. Has friends, I mean she's in she's in a gym I mean, is there any Buddy trying to intervene on Bill's behalf, morning hammer any rumors floating around. Is there any doubt? Is there anybody? That's nothing sing out against her. Well, I guess they could. I think bill was pretty headstrong from what I understand bill is pretty headstrong and you did not tell bill what to do and you did not tell bill how things were going to be bill. Told you how things were going to be.

And so and his other daughter was living on her own elsewhere. So the only person who was living with him was his son who he was having some issues with because of the his drug and alcohol use. So he was still a a father son situation with him. I don't think Kevin was saying anything to bad, like wow, show for internet and in fact I don't think they were. They had any idea of what she was capable of that's the thing. So when she's running around with Eric Naposki and all these other men, they didn't know that they thought they were in an exclusive relationship because the net was, and that was savvy enough to figure out that you know bill did not want to come to these sport

events with her because he told her that he goes. You know what I already raised, my kids and I'm not I'm any interest in coming to these. You know baseball games with you, so she would bring her lovers an Eric Naposki in particular to these games, so the other people on the team could see them in fact, she's sitting on Eric Naposki's lap right up until the day of the murder in front of her first ex husband but again she's telling everybody else that Hey Bill Mclaughlin is, is my you know, business mentor, father figure, including her first Ex husband, the only person that had that testified during the trial. That said, anything

that he knew was some guy who was father of one of the kids on the next Suns baseball team, who actually knew that she was living with bill. He was the only person and he didn't say anything 'cause. He didn't like bill personally. In fact, he liked Eric Naposki better because Eric so there was nobody to warm bill because they didn't she kept everybody separate and compartmentalized. That was, she was very good at Now, let's get to pardon me some particulars of this. Giving anything away. Let's there's She has financial tested. This check book. His ability to write a check thousand ten thousand. You can tell her audience Much to write the check for, but hang on. Then we want to know we want to you have to eat tell us outline where Eric Naposki works and its proximity to to their home and the soccer game

we're going to talk about the soccer game of which is an hour before or earlier in the evening and Eric and Nanette and the boy is going to see even award. So this is an amazing part of this book, where this incredible scene so tell us first about this check and how much and when is it written out for and tell us about that? First, so, all through one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, the net is getting more and more brazen with this. Basically, what she's doing is embezzling money, so first she's starting out with just taking one thousand doll.

And making it five thousand dollars. So she's moving money, basically from account to account. So she only has access authorized access to one account but she's moving stuff around and she keeps the ledger and so she's entering in she'll. Take a certain amount of money and she'll enter in a different amount of money, so she's taking money and then an since she's doing the accounting she's not doing the proper, a cow

neither so she can take it. No one will notice at least you think so, and and that's true for all of nineteen ninety four, then she starts getting a little more brazen. So as one thousand nine hundred and ninety four progress is in her relationship with Eric Progress is she starts, taking bigger amounts of money and again entering in a different amount in the ledger and moving money around different account, so that you can't find it if it's missing right. So all the way up to it starts getting to thirty thousand and seventy five thousand and then on December 14th, which is the day before he's murdered. She writes a check for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. She signs it Bill Mclaughlin, so she's forging his signature Anet,

made out to a trust that she has just established in the last couple of weeks. As soon as she found out, this nine million dollars was going to be coming in. She immediately establish. Is this new business and a new account incorporates this new thing and she's, basically setting up a mechanism to take the rest, the rest of his money, an obviously to kill him, because all of this is done in such a way that the timing is such that he would have found out that she was doing this and so the detail

gives in the prosecution think that she either he was about to find out or the clock was ticking. There's something was about to happen. Maybe he really was having suspicions. We don't really know. His brother said that there was a very strange phone call right before he was killed where she said that he was stockpiling, guns and he's someone was after him and he was you know he was sounding really paranoid and strange so, but he didn't meant and that it's just it's something he he knew something was going on. Well then, that is that is, has just gotten back from this. You know whirlwind trip back to meet Eric's parents and from her sister's wedding, where he caught the garter belt and she cut okay and you know, they're sitting each other's lap years of them. You know clear,

See this happy couple: this is a couple couple weeks before Bill killed right, so I don't know what she's thinking that nobody's ever going to notice nobody's ever going to find these pictures nobody's ever going to find out. I don't know what she was, but anyway, so she and Eric go off to this championship soccer game for her son, Christopher and you know, as I said, she has gone to every single game. She is just super. Soccer mom. She dries all the kids she's, always there, except on this night, her first ex husband is there he's the father of these of her two kids he's there Eric is there. He thinks that Eric and Annette are a couple, but he knows the nets ways because she cheated on him too.

And he's thinking. You know what she's involved with Bill and Eric so he's, but he doesn't say anything so he sees them and about eight hundred and twenty, eight hundred and twenty p dot m they start like saying we gotta go Eric's got an eight hundred o'clock appointment he's like well, but it's eight hundred and twenty in there in overtime. You know and it's the tide game where you going so anyway, it he the kid loses and there's a championship medal ceremony. So even though he lost there's still a medal ceremony, it's like you know it's not a trophy, but it's a metal. So it's still something and if you're a great mom, aren't you going to stay and watch your kid get the metal 'cause he did

make it into the championship, so no she's going to leave with Eric, so there like running off to the car and and her first husband thinks that's pretty weird. Anyway. They disappear and Eric about two weeks earlier. Co, incidentally, has gotten this new job as a security guy at ' you night club, which is only about a two and a half minute walk from Bill's house. So it's nice called the Lido. I think it's built under Philip area, and that is over a bridge over some water from Bill's house, which is right on on the water and, coincidentally, two two weeks earlier. He get this job. So the net and Eric tell police later that when their questions that you know hey, she dropped him off at his apartment and he took a shower and then he went to work.

And she went shopping. She went to the mall because it was right before Christmas. She had some shopping to do so. She comes back to Bill's house with the shopping bags and a receipt to show where she's been an Eric when they finally catch up to him. You know he says he thought that was his story. Stop stop. There now tell us about the murder in in itself. Home in his robe and he's just got back from Vegas Private plane uh is the sun, the sun, Disabled son is upstairs listen to some music and what happens so they'll come back

and normally on a Thursday night? Kevin is at an AA meeting and so on this particular night, though he did not go, and it's not really clear why, but he stayed home and he and his dad had some dinner and then he went upstairs to listen to music and around nine hundred and ten pm. He start tearing. These shops downstairs pop pop and then there's a pause pop pop and then there's a pause pop pop and then there's a pause. So he comes downstairs as fast as he can and, as I mentioned before, he has some ambulatory problems from his brain damage. So it takes him a full minute to get downstairs

and this dog is barking like crazy and he finds his father lying on the kitchen floor. There's blood on the floor. There's some bullet casings flying around the dog is barking like crazy. His father's glasses. Are you yeah and he's in his bathrobe, and so he immediately start calling nine one one and the tragic, tragic horrible part of this case, and they played the nine one one tape in the courtroom, and it just made you wrench inside it was so sad. He was trying so hard to communicate with the nine one one dispatcher and she could not understand what he was saying and it it was just it. It must have just been horrible for him, though, trying to communicate having such a

communicating she's like wait. What your dog's been shot. You know wait, did your father shoot themselves, your mom, your dad? Well I mean she just couldn't get it, but she did get that there was a gun involved that they did end up, sending an ambulance. They did send the police over, but by the time they got over there. It was way too late and in fact, by the time he was calling nine one one. His father was probably already dead because there were six shots, but the nine millimeter sure, and there were several at least several of them. That would have been fatal as soon as they were shot. So he probably felt like you know, time was running out, but in fact it that was already dead. Now, when please come as we spy spoke about at the beginning, what did they find in the door

what did they find in the ground near the door while they don't find it immediately, but tell us what they find and tell us about that? Ok, so so Kevin comes downstairs and he finds his daddy calls nine hundred and eleven when the police arrive. They show up in the first, the first police to show up or actually on bikes, because this is Newport Beach. This is there's a lot of water in Newport Beach and a lot of there's a pedestrian. So kinda like a jogging path or you could walk on it. You can bike on it. You can rollerblade on it and that goes all the way around the peninsula area in the right where, where bill lived, which was called among, wouldn't get this wrong based short codes and

SH did that with the roller blade and very athletic. As I said, and so the people in the house who lived there had a key to a date that went from inside the community out to that house. So there was a gate right across the street. They lived on a cul de sac and then there was. They also had front door keys, so the

a tester, an access date keys for that, for that lock were given out to by the homeowners association. There were only a limited number you have to sign out for them. You are not allowed to copy the key, it said, do not copy on you, you know and keys, so they were distributed by the Homeowners Association, our purpose, to keep these to keep a secure. So anyway, when the police got there, they found two newly copy keys. One was actually literally in the door lock up the front door, just a single key when one of those little tiny metal circles that you get when you just come back from the hardware store, did they give you the right hearing things, and then there was another one on the doormat and they were different colors and they were clearly you know shiny brand brand new copy keys now, as they started doing some investigation. What they found was that well, because they were right near the ocean,

the front door lock could get corroded with salt so that sometimes when they had a new key they'd have to go, get it reground because it wouldn't fit in properly and then the one that was on the on the doormat was the one that went to the gate. The pedestrian access gate out to that path, and by the way that passed, lead right up to the bridge which led across the bridge over to the Thunderbird loungewear Erica Paski had just gotten this job. So again, there was a key to the pedestrian access gate on the mat and the front door lock had a key that was literally stuck in it then if somebody had stuck the key in the front door, Lock tried to turn and get it out and it got stuck an in his haste dropped the other key. So that's, basically what the police decided that ok,

there's two keys, their freshly made copies and what that means is there's a finite number of people who had access to these keys because, like I said they were not supposed to be copied. Now, in any investigation, homicide detectives. Some experience, some more experienced and some less experienced will have some kind of strategy. To ascertain what really went on and who are the likely suspects and who can be arrested. If there's enough evidence what is their strategy in? What's the police. Strategy. What's their initial idea and how do they go about with a straw

to do to try to get a confession or conviction. Well, when you have a small department- and I'm you know, I'm saying that I'm saying this, and in other departments as well and other small, smaller communities, you know I live here in San Diego and that's a big community at the eight largest city in the nation. Newport Beach is a much smaller place. So, what's different about a small police department receives the big city police department? Is they have people on there for and in Newport they rotate their detective? So you don't have somebody who's? You know of veteran homicide active work in every case they rotate on, so that the detective in this case was Tom Tom, both your boss- and this was his first homicide case and actually, as it turns out, it was his first and only homicide case. He had worked undercover narcotics, he had done all kinds of other things, but this was his first homicide case now. By the same token, as he's explained to me, that doesn't mean he was making decisions on this case. That meant that he was the lead detective, but he said he mostly was in charge of keeping the paperwork together and that the people above him were the ones who are making the decisions on what to do next, which I think,

is also true of smaller department, where you have the supervisory people who are more experienced, who are calling the shots and telling everybody what to do so. I think when they say lead detective in this particular case. You know I don't want to blame him for overlooking on anything, but at the same time he wasn't experienced so, but by the same token, it was also an enterprising guy. He he was the one who said hey. Why don't I go approach some of these hardware stores and see if I can find out if anybody's made keys there recently, as it turned out, guess what Eric Naposki had recently copied keys at the hardware store. You know near near his house, so um like I said so. There are pros and cons to this small kind of smaller community approach and and the experience, but that's the way it is what it is, and it was what it was. So how do they first? What do they first do? What is their first idea? as a a likely Sus

actor or a possible suspect. What's their first, But in how do they go about it? Well, there you know, there's. This is over some period, time, but initially I think they kind of knew well. This probably was an inside job because of the keys right, because there's a finite number of keys, so they were searching. They were also searching for the murder weapon and they they went looking right in the channel of water right outside his house, didn't find any gun or anything 'cause. There's no murder web they were just a bullet casing and they didn't really know what was going on or who to look at, in particular until bills. Memorial service, at which the son said my boyfriend, plays football on mom, my mom's boyfriend.

Football now. People at the funeral are like oh wait a minute. Then net was bill's girlfriend. Who is she talking about so right away cats out of the bag. They focus in on somebody who plays football, who is hanging out with with Nanette Anna NET. Has gone to stay at another house that bill owns, which is about four minutes away. It's on the shore Dr. She says I can't stay in this house where he was killed so she's staying in this other house, which they called the beach house and the police start surveilling her and that house and within short order they see Eric the posse coming into the house. They start following him and they find probable cause to pull him over and and bring him in for questioning in the middle of the night. After he's gotten off work at the Thunderbird lounge us some kind of outside,

traffic warrant, so they bring him in for questioning about this murder and he's like what it you know. I've been yeah I've been kind of dating than that, but it's like no big deal but he's minimizing their relationship and please minimizing their relationship and that the police are kind of focusing in on the two of them as suspects, but they still don't have what they need to this case open. So what they end up doing- and I ended up interviewing the prosecutor at that time- which was not the prosecutor who ultimately prosecuted this case to conviction. She was a tough cookie and the way she described it. This was at Allmans kind of world she was the only woman and she just had a disagreement with these guys at the Newport Beach Police department. There was a breakdown and can

cation? They didn't want her involved in the case. They want to do it their way. She wanted to do something different. They split the case and its two ends of the fraud with the checks, the embezzlement and a murder and she's like you know, she didn't think that A good idea, but that's what they did so they finally arrested men that for for for these fraudulent checks that they basically can end up, like fifteen checks, that they could figure out the cheap porch that bill's name on, and they thought that they were going to force her to talk about the murder. But in fact she just she just clamped up, and so she the way she tells it now looking back. That was a big mistake and that that is what you know really screwed up this whole this whole case and Wyatt end up turning into a cold case. All these years later,

she wouldn't talk and they, I guess, thought she was just going to roll over and she didn't so they they thought that Eric was the shooter. I think way back then, but they just couldn't prove it. Was there any explanation what they thought they were doing by separating those charges be cuz? It's I mean it's a minor charge. They thought because she, the pressure of being in prison, would then get her to. I don't. I still don't understand what they thought they would do by doing that. Well

a very unusual way. Don't well yeah. One thing you need to understand it. I can't say this with any certainty. I am only being told what I'm being told it's all these years later. People's memories are faulty. There's a lot of politics involved in this and the people that want to point fingers the prosecution, the prosecutor and his investigator. You know they don't want to say anything bad about the police department. The police departments probably embarrassed after all these years. Ultimately, you there was a conviction and all turned out fine, but I mean I can't say for sure what happened back then, but I think what happened is that they thought that they had a sure thing with the fraud and that's what they could prove and that's what they could prove in court and so that's what they went after and they were hoping that the murder would follow that. That's all I can suggest at the point. It may not make sure, but I think that's

What happened yeah but regardless it goes cold, and I think one one thing that you convey in the book, though, that then that's a pretty strong character, when her demeanor, when she's being interviewed, is very helpful instead of being defiant, and she doesn't really dig herself into too many holes doesn't predictor, so she pretty well how's the story down yeah. The posting of Husky is the big argumentative. You know aggressive guy who just pisses them off. You know yeah. She says. Well, you know I'll be helpful. I mean you can be. You can be passive aggressively, not helpful and sort of appear like you're trying to do. You know to go along, but she wasn't. She wasn't volunteering anything clearly uh

and she she's a con woman. She had an answer for most things that they asked her and she you know she got away with it for fifteen years, yeah. Now. What was it that were we're running out of time, but to what was it? That was the turning. Do they have any new evidence? What was it What was the reason for, after that many years of being cold, it became suddenly prosecutable there's but investigators, Mary, Montgomery, who was a former homicide detective at another police department. He went to work for the DA's office and he also worked on a scholar daily on case, and he did a good job with that help them bring that to give action, and this was a bit. This is a similar case to that other one which meaning that It was a death penalty case. Origene

it looked like it could be, at least meaning that the special circumstances of financial you know murder for financial gain. Were you there right? They did not prosecute this one as a death penalty case, but this it was a very similar case in that, in that it was a you know, largely circumstantial evidence case, because they did not have the murder weapon and they did not have direct evidence that they had all kinds of other financial evidence and also, at the other evidence as though they were very similar in the way that the the suspects and defendants used children use their children as pawns and manipulated, and it was all about money and greed. So he came in to this one. The police detective and the prosecutor really got to be close over this during the scholar doing out of instigation, and they wanted to continue to

work on something else, and they basically just in a do. You have any other cases that you think you know we could take another look at and they said yeah the Mclaughlin case, so they they set this investigator Larry Montgomery on to the case, and he went through every piece of evidence. Again. He listened to all these tapes that they had in the case file of phone calls that they'd made you know, phone interviews an and a bunch of tape, calls that had come into the police department and what he found were a couple witnesses who had basically been overlooked, and what also had changed is that you know with new technology. The ballistics were much better so that they were able to narrow down the murder weapon from twenty seven or twenty eight

guns down to just one, and that was the Beretta. Ninety two f, which coincidently Erica Pasti, had owned and said had been stolen. He did know where was confined, it can produce it, so they basically, we were able to arrest both of them and they re interviewed both of them and Prosky kept saying I have an alibi, have an alibi. He said this earlier too, but he never produced any phone records to back this up. He said he got a page from the Thunderbird Lounge where he worked saying he needed to come in, warn him about some boat parade traffic and he should be aware and that he returned to page all those years ago, when we used to have pay

apparently returned to page from a pay phone using his credit card, his phone credit card, but he never produced those records, and so by the time he was arrested, those records had long been destroyed and he and his attorneys and a nest attorneys kept trying to use that as well. It's been so long. You can't properly adjudicate or prosecute this case, because you know our evidence in our you know. Eric's alibi have been destroyed. Well, according to the prosecution, they did these time trials driving from point a to point b and they're, like you know what, regardless of whether he ever made this call, he still had enough time to commit the murder, so it doesn't even matter,

sure, so there was a whole lot of back and forth over these over this phone calls at Erica, possibly supposedly made his defense said. It was physically impossible for him to have committed the murder because he returned his call at eight hundred and fifty two and there's no way he could have driven from there to Newport and the prosecution prove that he was able to do that. To everybody. Satisfaction in clue bring the jury, including the judge. So how is it that the the trials were split up that he went first and and it was there any indication at anyone any of that. As attorneys wanted that

okay you're asking me into a question that I'm not exactly positive of I. I think this is the prosecution's choice, but basically what happens is if you try to people like this together, you can't use their statements about each other against them, so it actually is better for probably everybody to separate defendants in trials like this. So it's not that often that you see a whole bunch of defendants tried together. It does happen, but it actually works better because you know, theoretically, the prosecution can then use completely different theories from trial to trucks, have different juries it with the using the same fact. You can have different interpretations so well as yeah what they were celebrated on the point. I was as a kind of play now, I will bring it up because his defense, attorneys sort of sort of pointed kept, insisting who is ski alone

so that was sort of it could to her advantage from him playing on This guy's already been convicted and acted alone, well the way I should have an advantage, one from one trial You have the defense thing, one thing: the prosecution, saying one thing and the next trial you have the prosecution, saying what the defense said in the last trial, Kimber it against the other defendant, and so everybody is pointing thank but everybody else and it's you know you have different juries, so they don't know, but the judge did not keep out the information that air Kapowski had already been convicted when Annette finally came around for trial, but when the net came round for trial, Eric had already been convicted and- and so what her defense was trying to say, is well Eric, the one who shot him an and then it didn't have anything to do with it in the first one. He was just

Listen in the first one they were trying to his defense is trying to say well. It could have just as easily have been in debt who shot him. You know I mean it was just kind of crazy, so. Well just a failed. Obviously, for both of them were that it's been fifteen years, just just isn't fair to prosecute them, because we don't have all the evidence. That's been destroyed, which wasn't true, but that was both both of them said and that the police invest. Vision was so shoddy and so poor that you can't trust anything. They say. Well I mean have they have to make a defense, but obviously bakery concurred with the prosecution so right, well, Matt. Murphy, the prosecutor is pretty he's a pretty amazing prosecutors, very convinced you are very persuasive. Yes, I did. I did an abnormal job, obviously right. What was the atmosphere like at the trial? There was a lot of

spectators basically. Well, how was the trial received basically by the media? Well, I think you know people were really more interested in the net, because the net is a woman, an it's more interesting when you have an attractive murderer these days in our culture, you know an That's got to be a more high profile trial because Eric the pop you was in the NFL, so that's the you know, sort of a celebrity status, but but none that really was the story. As our part I could tell, and as far as I think the media was concerned, they really felt like you know it's just it's just more interesting as a person, but they never really painted her during the trial, either trial, as as a three dimensional person at with this, she was just like this horrible, terrible, sleazy cheating. You know

seductress an even her own attorney. He. It was bizarre. She just kept bringing up all of this horrible behavior. He said, but no matter how much you hate her, you can't you can't convicted you don't like who she is, that doesn't make her murderer an I'm, not sure that was the best tactic, because by the time you were good. I mean he made her look worse than the prosecutor. Did I mean it was kind of bizarre. You. Right. I know what point he was trying to make, but yeah you're right he went on and on and on it was like wow. That's Vince them yeah. You have free right, and so this it was. You know just the other thing that we didn't quite get to it. I know we have like two seconds left, but the interesting thing at the very end was that Eric Naposki after he was convicted.

Then comes out with this story about it. Wasn't me it was a hit man that in that hired, which delayed everything and sent him things and and how the prosecutor and Lawyer Montgomery the investigator go back again and try to research. This whole new theory, but it never held any water and they were both in Yeah yeah so they're both sentence to life without any possibility of parole, no death penalty, but right secured away secured away. Both of them Sure amazing already been denied, so there you go yeah. Well, I mean has to be something wrong with the trial anyway, but I'm surprising appeals though so I didn't, they didn't say anything anything can happen The door deliberations in her case were pretty quick, so.

So it was an amazing experience attending the trial. Obviously you know it was interesting to me to go. So an interview Eric Naposki, the trial. You know the trials are trial them. I couldn't could not believe all the stuff that she had done to people. I was amazed at that and and the fact that she had no emotion whatsoever ever she just sat there like a stone. Well, it's like wow. Do you have a heart like I said she deep, dark hole in her soul? That woman, when you interviewed Mccloskey, was in still in denial or what and and and and was there any talk of him being manipulated? I don't know he Admit it, you know she she yeah, she she took me

she's a liar. You know, I believe, you're at the time I left her at the time. You know I've I've, but he also was like you know, I'm in the Senate do the you know there was a hit man. You know I I talked to from a seven hours any I could barely get a word in edgewise. He really like to talk and- and that was how you is with the detectives as well. You know they were trying to ask him questions and he just kept taking over. So I let him do that and I said, look I'm going to let you talk, but I need to talk to. I need to ask him questions, and so he did let me but here's a character. You know what this thing I always say: is people who are convicted killers? Is they don't seem like killers, they're, Char, They are friendly, oftentimes they're. They are, you know he would have no idea, and he was he fit right into that mold, so yeah, well, that's the scary part of the capacity to am now

I almost could be friends with this person. Almost You almost had me go wow was this story, so I said well, ok. I need to just go research this so I did you know and- and I was like- and I started looking at the Evidence- and I started looking at the stuff that he said it just didn't hold together. So yeah yeah? Well, that's the thing yeah! That's that's amazing that you had that opportunity to listen to his story. First then,. Now I always have you know what I go into these things with it. I try to go in with an open mind. I don't just immediately dismiss anybody even if they've been convicted, because

you know there's there's some time across convictions and I'm willing to take a look and she know I'm trained as an objective journalist. So I do approach these these cases. That way, even though people have already been convicted, I do approach it that way and then I write the story the way I write the story and people I mean I don't I don't write a book unless somebody spent convicted, so I wait till everything is over yeah. That's a that's! A pretty safe bet these days, because there's been a few, Looks where I was surprised, we're publishing company actually said: ok, we're going to publish this story before the outcome of a trial, and all that happens all the time, although we get it wrong and getting it wrong, though you know so well surprising surprising, jury results so can happen an appeals to so I never do that I thought I always wait till there's a conviction, so I'm pretty happy

with the conviction like in Canada, here at your originally from Canada. I believe Montreal they try to You know I don't know if some people are hesitant to right before the appeal is finished, which is another year Oh, that's great waiting forever for that, Well, you already waiting forever, as you know so that another year and a half is not- and you know I mean especially if you looked at the trial and your experience that looking at trials and no one can never say for sure that something won't. Will return an appeal, but unless something was dramatically wrong with the trial and so well, you know my first book poisoned love with Kristin Rossum. She is still she's over she's gone through the appeals process. Her appeal was rejected in the state courts are appeal was rejected in the federal course or appeals rejected by the Us Supreme Court. She still found an attorney too

take another whack and coming in and in a side door, and it still going at it. I mean and her still active two thousand and two and were in two thousand and fourteen she still trying to get free. So You just go there some people to keep trying some people. You keep using the system. Yeah. Certainly yeah and there's been some outcome, so it's worth a shot. I guess, if you have nothing better to do and you're sitting there anyway right, but your body Not sure funny yeah, that makes a taxpayer feel good. It's listening right now, so exactly yeah. Well, I I wanna. Thank you very much for this. What do you? What's your you have something coming down the pike. What's the next project, if you could be so kind,

yeah, I'm actually working on a case. This is kind of interesting that also came out of dead reckoning. The Skylar Deleon CASE Tom and Jackie Hawks, who were the victims in that race and tide to an anchor and thrown overboard right off Newport yeah by the Newport Beach Department was investigating that they originally met in a town called Prescott. Actually it's

press get like this get press get Arizona, and I am now writing a book about a case of murder case out of Prescott Arizona. So somebody who will read that that dead reckoning was sending me story, ideas and book ideas and and the first one I'm like. No, no, then she tried again- and she was sending me these things from the newspaper from the trial of the vendor macher, who was ultimately convicted and sentenced for killing his just recently divorced wife, Carol Kennedy, and the interesting thing about this case is that they have two daughters and the two daughters to this day. I believe that their father did not do it and that their father was wrongly convicted and so does his entire family. So this is a really interesting case to me, because there are a lot of twists and turns things that went wrong. There was a mistrial,

on the first trial and he was ultimately convicted in a second trial. But there was he was the murder occured about a month after their divorce was finalized and there had been a long battle over money. So it's another one of these cases about money and financial gain and the prosecution basically says that his motive was so that he didn't have to pay her alimony so the day that he was supposed to pay her her his first alimony payment of six thousand dollars. He didn't make the payment and the next day she was murdered. So and then there were two life insurance payments of seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars total that he was supposedly the beneficiarii, but because they were divorced, they were then going to go to the daughters and what ended up happening is that money? He

convince them that money needs to go to me and might depends, and so there were all these transfers, and so even after he was charged with the murder, he was later charged with a whole bunch of other things that happened. While he was in jail with the transfer of all that money which ended up getting spent on his first trial, which was a miss trial too. So private attorneys got all that money. The daughters got none of it and that's gone and there was a hole, but this is a whole bunch of other stuff that was just really crazy. An these attorneys were accusing each other of impropriety and the judge, and it was just like it's it's a crazy. It's crazy! These fiction right, it's crazy! It's like crazy than fiction! I always pick cases that are crazier than fiction. Well, that's great amazing storytelling. That's for sure right now we forward to that one so yeah will be

talking to you in the new year or in this year I should say and how it will be out. Texture, yeah 'cause. I have to first, give me some time to write it. Well, I mean, I know you're prolific, so yeah, well that that fast, ok, good, thank God. Well. I want to thank you very much Caitlin for coming on and talking about I'll, take care of you very fascinating book and thank you for coming on, for fascinating interview. Thank you once again for having me on and I'm glad I was here. Well, thank you and have yourself a good night. You too, alright, bye, bye,. And now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, these be the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah, but The far less appealing, blobfish.

Come on. To add insult to injury, you could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. Loyalty is all about being there day in day out, Tripoli thanks you for being there with loyalty, rewards like when you get savings on triple a auto insurance, just for being a triple a member, and when you switch to triple a auto insurance, you could save more based on how long you've been a triple a member and how long you've had your current insurance insurance. Not just insurance, learn more about triple a auto insurance and loyalty, rewards click now or visit Tripoli dot com, slash insurance