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You're not listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan happy good eating. This Joe stands a Basque for the program to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have written about them. Show oil mountain lies nineteen miles e of Mount Everest on the border between to I don't

the flavors of pumpkin are back in a big way, we're talking pumping doughnuts, pumpkin methods, pumpkin munchkins, don't at horse: oh boy, pumpkin, coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen coffee, pumpkin lattes and the exciting new cinnamon sugar pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin, flavoured everything and Duncan America runs on Duncan. Oh aunt, pumpkin cake, ipods to limited time, offer participation. Mayberry Kerrigan kick up use under licence that Nepal to delete mountaineering humidity, its known as the sixth highest mountain. In the world, two Tibetans to oil represents a gateway to freedom through the secret glacial path. The name aloud Timber 30th, two thousand and six gunfire echo through the thin air near advanced base camp on Cho Oil and climbers, preparing to summit watched in horror as chinese border guards fired at a group of Tibetans fleeing to India via

Ah murdering the high him a layer? Is the unforgettable account of the brutal killing of causing them so a seventeen year old that none fleeing with the group, the Damosel to escape religious persecution? Calcite death is a painful example of Tibet Suppression by China, but this time a human rights atrocity was witnessed and documented by dozens of western climbers. So moral dilemma was plane. Would they tell the world what they had seen. The center of the stories in american climber, stuck with a crisis of conscience, who gambled with his career, to speak out and a young tibetan girl who sacrificed her rights to ever return to the vet by telling the western media about the murder of her best friend, both risk their futures to expose the abuses of China in Tibet

and paid a terrible price. The book this evening featured is murder in the high Himalaya loyalty tragedy and escape from Tibet, with my special guest journalist and author Jonathan Green. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview and welcome to the program. Jonathan Green. Damn. Thank you very much for having me well, thank you very much and first often say, oh great, very, very great red and in a credible book and I'm sure audience will enjoy hearing about it this evening now, first off, I wanted to ask you: why did you decide to write this book? What was it about this story that compels you to write? This book is incredibly important story, because China is in the ascendant their number two economically now behind the United States

and within China. There's a very brutal suppression of ethnic minorities and this particular story these incredibly rare, because the murder of Kelsang NAM, so the one of the characters in my book was documented and filmed by western climbers, which is a rarity that we know these Women rights abuses occur all the time in China, but we never get to hear about them because of the suppression and because China is very effective at making sure that stories like this don't come out and you never hear about them. But in this one instance

circumstances were absolutely bang on that word, the murder was to witness and films, and you can see the telephone on Youtube, but it made this very compelling- and I was particularly shocked like everybody else was when this unfolded as an in can arsenal news story in two thousand and six but uh. I particularly wanted to know who the characters were. Who was there? to figure falling in the snow nineteen thousand feet and why were people show chewing gum who witness? Who today and done it? You know? it started me on a very long journey. Now, let's go back a little bit to really for those people that don't know, and this probably most people that know as much as that. You have unfolded in your book in which you have given me.

Given the reader through your book is the history of Tibet and China. So if you could give a the why China wanted to dominate to Beth Ann what that meant in terms of the Tibetan Sand and the Dalai Lama? So if you could briefly explain the import of the Dalai Lama in this entire story, two Tibetans and China

Anna, and explain that to give us a real historical background to this story, which is vital to bass, is the highest country in the world. It's at the very top of the globe, but you know part parts of it like the average height services, twelve thousand feet, which is as high as the tallest mountains in Colorado. Before one thousand nine hundred and fifty it was independent country which boarded China. Mao Zedong decided to bet which is a huge country. Is this eyes, if Western Europe that it would be beneficial to China to have passes passive China say he invaded with his armies and took the country by force at that time spent was a theocracy.

And the most people that have allegiance to the Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhism and dumb The Dalai Lama Kite deal with now for several years is and then in nineteen, fifty nine nine years after the chinese army invaded realized. His life was a great were so he made the great day dangerous any over the mountains and went to live in India where he now lives in exile. An you know, roughly three thousand Tibetans a year make this day english journey over the mountains to be with him today. To bet it's under chinese rule,

many Tibetans feel that they can adapt occupied by foreign power. China in Tibet is passive, China and pasture there. Territory- and therein lies the conflict. Now too, you ve talked about the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans in Chinese. There can complete difference on the interpretation and how they speak of the Dalai Lama. So did two Tibetans, what is really the Dalai Lama to them really impressed personified an end? How do the Chinese characterize the same Dalai Lama in their propaganda

than to other Chinese, and two Tibetans went in there? We'll talk a little bit later about this re education process. Tibetans believe that the Dalai Lama is regarding human form, that he is here in his common inclination to help people achieve compassion to make the world a better place and to bring peace, but he is out too lightly on the deity. I'm a god. The chinese government see the Dalai Lama as a very grave threat to their claims over Tibet, because Tibetans allegiance to the Dalai Lama and he now lives in exile, the chinese government.

Either. They call him a status and could Jacko run up a wolf in monks robes, and they say that all he wants to do is to spit their country, often to split China, because the Dalai Lama doesn't believe that Tibet. You know that Tibet should have some sensible autonomy. It should be its own thing. So you know these two completely different points of view and Tibetans are very spiritual and religious and the chinese government tries to ensure the most Chinese, chiefly atheists.

Today they try to make sure that people don't believe in any type of religion, because they see that as a threat to their hold on power. You know they don't want people to have any other religions, but to the Chinese Communist Party. Now the other thing that the Chinese are, you say that the they reject religion, and but there is about fifteen percent of Tibetans, livers, monks and nuns and in practice, Buddhism, and how is their life in Tibet trying to be among practicing monks and nuns? What is their life like into bed? Under those circumstances? It is very difficult, indeed, is very tightly

regulated because the government in New York thoraces believe any sort of religion. As a stress I mean in you know, modern day, China, Chris Tiana T is a threat, so there are underground churches in Tibet. They see Buddhism as a threat. So anyone who wants to become a monk or nanos have follow any sorts of spirits, spiritual path, it's very tightly regulated and it's seen as political act. They thaw reties CS is:

are a grave threat to their rum, hold on power there. So monks and nuns singled out for particular punishment, and for many years we ve hurt. You know how did the greatest human rights abuses, people locked up in jail and tortured and beaten and interrogated some cases. You know they ve been killed. A it's. It's endless, really, some they see any form of blood relation. Is a friend Now you begin your book very dramatically with the introduction of one of the main characters and the the person she's in a family. That's also the main care. It is in your story, but this is an eight year old name Dogma and Burma.

Lemme and her brother runs in Indonesia younger brother as well. Introduce our audience to who these people really were. Tell us first about Naima She's, an independent woman and and tell us when this story takes place when you begin with the eight year old, named alma and and tell us about their their life and you can go as far as Wendy PS, be guards, and you can explain to those people and why that story is a strong indication of things to come. And also why you included that in the very dramatic beginning of your book about the officers coming in and looking for something in the from this family here. So please explain that for us please they came from rural part if to that, it's a place called Dreary county, which is way up in them

Johnson's very high altitude, it's it's a very tough environment, very inhospitable. You know it's minus thirty. In the wind they have a very short kind of summer and life is extremely tough. But Tibetans live like this. You know thousands of years, Goma, main character. In my book she lived with her mother and sister and her brother there, and I start my book with how you know as a young girl. She was eight years old. Oh the police came to visit and, if you're tibetan you get for used to the these turning up at anytime day or night and they're always looking for some type of infraction of the room

in Modern Day Tibet, you can go to prison for five years, just by having a photo offered the Dalai Lama, some congratulated con Turandot them. People aren't allowed to happy photograph, and you know you can go to prison for it. For my book open with a story with Alma his eight years old, with the police knocking on the door and turning the house upside down. Looking for pictures of the Dalai Lama and gum. Do you know all Tibetans have an unswerving it

agents? Can the Dalai Lama, so many people have pictures of him, but they hide them. Save the police come over time to try to find them now. That's pervading attitude is it from from where I get from your book. Is it the people defied the the chinese authorities and keep whatever treasured pictures that they have of the Dalai Lama, in defiance of that, so they they're very resistant to

the chinese ruin and there's not much cooperation with them? Now you also introduce said Dormice best friend next door, Dakar Tom. So maybe you can tell us what the almost life was like butter and maybe a little bit about her her friend Dakar Thomson. Yet they were basically to best friends day that they were. The Dama was now in over the year younger dock at home, say with a year older and they were very dear friend Doma Way, some you know understated and we then balanced and darker, who lived next, always very impetuous, send down very passionate and dumb. You know saw that had the path of her life,

we followed the Buddhism she she felt at particular calling for their religious life, and I I think Doma was not quite so drawn to that, but she supported her friend and therein, you know, begins their allegiance to the Dalai Lama, which put them on a direct collision course with the old crises in China and led to the events that unfold in my book. Now, how long does it take you introduce doormat? years old, how long does it take for her to grow up in a society that you need to mature very, very quickly and take on a lot of responsibilities just to survive? You talk about their their humble existence where they're burning the fuel is yak dung and then you even talk about how

Sometimes the officers would come by and even take a certain portion of that. So it was a really hard scrabble life, so tell us what her life was like growing up and I'm and what did she leaned towards? We obviously know that adult was leaning towards being a nun and and and dedicated relies life to Buddhism. Tell us what dull Mars life wasn't what her focus was in her interest. Yeah, I mean you know. As I said, I mean synthetically, tough environments, I mean it

it set such high altitude. There isn't really very much words, so you know in order to stay warm, you have a few said, a ban yak down and the actual like these big cows desolate high altitude castle and down it's really that's how Tibetans to buy from milk. You know hide me, say: Delmar had to grow up very fascination too. You know household chores, and a lot of responsibility, and sometimes she and Dulquer would go up to very you know, go down to lower altitudes to get wood or opposite of neighboring kind of mountains and he knew life waste, I mean tat. Life was tough, but then Tibetans re used

living in that way. You know they don't know anything any kind difference I mean if you went there your I you know. I pray you to western comforts. Who will be incredibly tough? You know so it's set of humble in that way, but you know there's a very strong spiritual I see and in daily life. Family bonds are very strong and I think Doma grew up. You know she loved her mother. They had a very close relationship and dumb. I don't think she thought TAT. She was the average teenager. Really I mean she, I am

do so at the age of eight, but you see her life flower and you know that. Then things started to change, you know when she was sixteen or seventeen right now. You also include which I thought was very interesting. Maybe you can explain why you included, as you talked about the other hearts gravel existence, but that that there was a born of a boon of sorts by the discovery by athletes. There were interested in a fungus. They grew at this high altitude. So maybe you can tell us how that story intersects with the complete story itself, are why you included that. Are I mean you know a typically have place. You know people have to make do with what they have done in recent years. Quadriceps is called wages.

Oddly enough is caterpillar fungus, which is seen it's a big component of chinese medicines and eastern from Edson. Then it's meant to have all these qualities. You know I mean it basically men to do everything that bring you back to life. Ask you die, I'm it can. It can heal you if you're sick, it can Numb is enough. Road does yak an end and it really were worth a lot of money. They pay. They call it soft gold, where don't ever lived, was emphatically rich area I'm in this, and that was how the family really managed to survive. If you know they collected this in the grasslands and then sold it

and that's how they were able to buy things like a motorcycle and out great bet, the house and said you know to be able to go into laughter, which is the capital of to bath on pilgrimage and shopping, apps and things like that. No in Dolmen Dol car spoke about dole car being a nun and dedicate their life to Buddhism. There's a catch to this as well, because isn't there talk of just like the Dalai Lama with fleeing to India that if you wanted to re

practices, religion, they don't get me wrong, did you would inevitably would want to escape, and the centre of this story is also this ode to joy or mountain and its secret path and is well known for people escaping so Whizzer talks between the two girls about this and what it would mean and tell us about that. I think, are fascinating parties. Yeah I mean it. I mean people hate, it drew this analogy, but I'm going to draw it anyway. It's you know if you're christian and you were offered the choice to meet Jesus rice, then I'm sure many people would take a very grave risk to be able to do that as sure as a Buddhist me Sing Dalai Lama is exactly the same thing. It's you know you. It's really like a meeting with God

because the Dalai Lama left the country and he lives in India. And the Chinese don't want anybody going to visit him because they see him as a political threat. I mean probably much in the same way that the Roman empire saw Jesus crisis.

Fresh Gervais city really be the the anyway to see him is to do so illegally and to undertake an incredibly dangerous journey over the Himalaya high mountains with very little food, because you can't announced the old priorities that you're going ran so that really you know that was ready to fly away. The darker was going. She felt that you know, because the Buddhism in Tibet was so tightly regulated that things were so tough. It was they often the two girls discussed,

I'm escaping and running over the mountains and getting to seed the Dalai Lama. Ok, now you talk about a climber now you you fast forward to the other part of the story, almost diametrically opposed and the other side, the world and some famous mountain climbers and and the whole business of mountain climbing on the sixth highest mountain in the world. A real challenge. The people explain that whole industry to us end and then you can introduce a couple of the characters like Mr Brunetta beneath us, and a couple of other people that end up being a central characters in this story is well explained at whole industry to our audience. Yeah son, the whole matter

ten hearing industry has had has expanded, exists such huge levels in the past thirty or forty years I mean it used to be such a rarity. Supplying mounds have rest now that gathers hundreds of people every year who go on, and you know it really is a very expensive sport. I mean if you want to go and climb Mt Everest, it's going to cost you at least seventy thousand dollars and you're gonna have to take real four months of work so that whole industry even ino each grown and expanded and got huge and there's a lot of companies operating in their hands layer now, and they offer these trips to people. You know you can be anyone just as long as you got the money, and you know you have some experience and I mean all very often

they don't offer any experience tool and they will take you up to the top of these mountains. So these are some of the most remote parts of the world, and when that happens, you start to interact with people from places like to death. Now main character is this Benitez, and I thought was interesting- is that you obviously talk about his his entire background and to illustrate his motivation for wanting to be this adventurer an eye. It was interesting how you talk about his early health and how he

were came this nothing. This is part of it, so maybe explain that how what he did what he did overcome in his early life, and why probably that that this life did he had made for himself was even a little more, especially as a result. The tell us a little bit about. Than when it is sure he's an American from MOM Missouri Originate Thing Lewis and he from a very silly. Very young age became fascinated with climbing mountains and I think from his father's some National geographic magazines and he had very bad childhood asthma and allergies, and everybody said it would be impossible for him to be anything like a mountain climber because he simply didn't have the lung,

capacity, but he was a very determines young man and became obsessed with the outdoors and climbing and built up his stamina by climbing in Ecuador, witches, where his father is from, and slowly became obsessed with mountain climbing and was a very successful guys and started to work for some of the big companies who work in the Himalayan. It was his ultimate ambition to climb Mount Everest right now. You talked about him working for a company. You talked about the industry, but I was amazed at the

groups how big the group some of the groups were for this and they kind of money, and also that he had a pretty strong eagle enough did didn't, have any giant yeah, it's it's all part of the modern dna. The modern sportive mountain climbing in some is completely different from what you would expect it. I mean it's, it's not the set of rugged. So is labouring away to the top. Selfishly it's it's! It's all about. You know getting speaking engagements and book deals in me, videos and marketing yourself down. You know for senior self out there, and you know it. You know it's a big show. Really that's that's where he was his, but primarily despite the eagle

he he loved the attention he loves to be known for for what he was doing, the celebrity of it, but but really it seemed like he really overall love the thrill of climbing more so than anything else. Yes like. I think he liked. Both I mean he took enormous pride in guiding people up to mountains and that's no. No we've sited mean fees and very early on in his career. He did so something extraordinary. He led a blind man all the way by the choice of Everest, which would the you know an incredibly difficult thing to do be

as you know, carrying amounts in like that results, sorcerer, crevasses and dangers in the end. If you can't see you, you know that really is one of the most crucial requisites in attempting anything like that for really, then he says with his eyes in that case and dumb beneath his took enormous pride in taking this guy to the very top, and it really made a name for him at that time. The low earlier on in his career celebrity made an aim for himself by and by doing that in achieving that. Yes, now how this story intersect, obviously is with oil mountain and in terms of its one slash six highest. But why is this mountain? Why is this mountain so preferred by climbers? Why is it such a special?

Mountain four climbers is is, is: is a danger? Is its location? What does it? What does it represent for climbers? That makes it so special of the altitude, the danger? What is it? Well, it's a six highest mountain in the world say just in that sort of sense. It's like a sort of trophy for people to claim once they've climbed it, but it's a couple of one thousand feet shorter than Mount Everest, so it, but Twenty eight thousand feet high, which is a huge. I mean it's enormous. You need the air on top is very thin. It's very hard to breathe, but the crucial difference between this mountain and Mount Everest or other is that there are very few technical aspects of it and by technical aspects I mean tastes.

Where you have to use ropes, or you know, ladders and things like that on Mount Everest. You know there's a number of parts like that which are quite treacherous, but the thing with Choi you is apart from one section of the mountain. You can really walk up the entire thing, but because that people underestimate is, and they underestimate the effects of high altitudes, which are incredibly tough on the human for body? But so It is really seen as a warm up for Mount Everest, which is why a lot of people climb it. Ok, now we're getting back to Delmar and Dole car. I found it interesting to maybe you can explain this as well. Is that your book I got it rings in almost brother- was a monk

didn't remain a monk. Maybe can tell us why that happened in in over a certain course of the land of OZ, the year Dakar formed a close bond with Helsing Lubber Lebrun Lebron. And he and he was at the local Difang Monastery. So maybe you can explain the course of events that goes on in in Dole cars life in the last year and her relationship with this uh Kelsang person yeah to Domer in Dhokha, but best friends. You know they grew older. Dakar decided that she actually wanted to become on the budget. You say she was going to the local monastery and and and praying and gay very have,

really involved in the spiritual life which was against her parents sort of wishes. You know they were worried that their daughter would become become the target of the old orators and it would make life very hard for her and who is becoming a non. She DNA she ready cooked, getting from or philosophy hot water, and I think you know, like teenagers glad the world over. She was very large, rebellious and you know She didn't care what her parents thought, and you know she felt the how relations was everyday light armor and to the spiritual life. So against everybody three wishes. She became a buddhist nun and she asked her

Best friend Dahmer, if she would become a become a none too, and I think Dahmer was she was the more of reasons sensible one and she probably decided that wasn't quite what she wanted to do so her friend Delco answer took her vows and renamed herself cow, Fang Nancy, which means later. Jewels and from that point on she was a buddhist nun which began to make life very hard because it's you know, the whole thing is very tightly regulated. She came to the attention of the authorities and she became increasingly frustrated that she couldn't practice her faith and the way she won he's. So she decided tat. She really had no choice but to flee over the mountains in to see and begins

the Dalai Lama and perhaps to be able to practice religion in to safety which would be in northern India. Now she was planning her escape and but she needed to speak with. Is she couldn't just do this without anyone's approval? He said her mother didn't approve for family, didn't approve, but maybe explained, and maybe I missed out investigations approval. She is. There is a very high subsidies degree in order to become a nun or a monkey. No, you have to be young ordain. You have to take your vows in Dhaka, became very place with a gay stay in the area. He was also called qualifying for where she she actually took his name

damn he was the one who perform that ceremony and dead. That's how she became alone. Now there there was some planning on when she would leave and she left with a group that were travelling to Dormice ALA. How often would people attempt to flee mean? Obviously she was in a group and tell us a little bit more about the organization of when they would leave and and who would leave and and who was in the group that was trying to flee when it is top secret there. You know people tried to go all the time, but if they can get court, then maybe I'm immediately go to prison, say that FIFA thing in these very likely that you'll get to be Hannan torches

because you're they regard this as a political axe that you're running away from China and you're going to see the Dalli Lama who they think is going to tear the country apart. You said they come down on it very hot. It's highly secrets, but in order to navigate, is very dangerous journey over the high man, since they have to find guides in these guides high illegal than they operate. You know on the very sight of fringes of society and dogma

Kalsang had to track down and find a guide. Who would take them? You know smuggle them out of the country and that's what they said about can doing and cal sandwich trying for a year or so to escape, and her parents knew that this is what she was attempting and they kept trying to tell her not to today was much too dangerous, but she persisted and one day through a friend of a friend, she managed to hear about someone who would take them out who would get and after the country, so Dahmer in California join the group who were leaving that were so, I guess in September, two thousand and six yes near September thirtieth so tell us about the act.

All day, it's very early in the day or give us a background even a day before what what had gone on and things had not gone. The way they had thought originally take us back to their journey. What It was all done on the spur of the moment, because it's highly illegal, no one advertises the fact and you don't get much warning an Kalsang had this guy. Then you know she immediately went to her best friend Dahmer, and I can guess it's out us. You know we can go to Indy we can see the Dalai Lama Erin, I think, don't run to wait longer that she went along better friends say she went home and you know they managed to scramble up some money and some clothes. And dumb in. I think it was midnight they create. Two cars came in and they went back

in the back of the house is at home and got into these cars down. There began abrasive so dangerous to journey. They had to go to the capital of. To bat first and then they had to you know, start travel over the mountains and, of course, all the way along there's army, checkpoints and military people, and you know their spies. There are people who dress up as much

thanks and nuns, but they really sort of undercover chinese Asian. So it's a very dangerous journey did. Was there something that Nyima said to Dorma before she left? What did your mother say to Doma? I I think she said just be very careful and and dumb you know, take care of yourself. It's you know. None of them. You know, DOM's, mother, didn't want her to go. Nobody did right, but still it was a pretty strong response, so I mean very encouraging, despite not wanting her daughter, to go. Of course I mean beyond,

and I mean I think it would be like here in the states. If you said you were going to up, sticks and games can see. God I mean I, I think people you know on a journey that may kill you I'll timidly. I mean, I think people would be against you going, but they'd understand why why you did it? Yes, it just seems like a very seriously religious place when your convictions are very strong. That's all I could I could say with the mother. Realizing what's going on, and despite that saying I know my daughter is going to leave and I understand basically. Yes, I mean- I, you know, I think, as we said I mean you know to bets- are particularly harsh place. It's a very tough place to live and, I think, sustains people. As you know, a very strong belief and a very strong spirit, duality said,

Can I use it to grow up in a very tough environment? You haven't a strong spirit and Tibetans alike, no others. You know that this overpowering spree duality the sum you know they are willing to do everything for you know right now, let's get to the events on September thirty, two thousand and six to the tragic events. Maybe can take us truth that day from the beginning and what transpired well yeah dollar and clarifying head join this great that managed to get to Lhasa Detective, and then they were smuggled out to the society in the back of the truck and there's only a certain way they can go in this truck before

you know they can't just driving India because they'll be caught dead, checkpoint, So the only way is to take this very high pass. Corbyn and Paul are which goes up to nineteen thousand feet and it's all ice and snow and rocks, and very very tough place and the truck stops before that, but they had not. You know at least ten days of walking to get over this high path and then down again in Sir Paul and then to get an answer. India say they dared started working socket walking ten days earlier than they had very little. Food and water, or anything to sustain them because, of course, they couldn't have big backpacks with supplies, because the Authoresses was know what they were doing,

so they really left with very little and they started out on this trip and dumb. There were seventy five of them smuggled on the back of his truck with doorman qualifying and people thought he said, one ass if food and ran out of water and people just added slumped on the trail through exhaustion- and there are many children in the group as well, because many parents in Tibet, then there kids again see the Dalai Lama under Heaven Education in India, which had things that they can't have in.

To that, so it was incredibly arduous journey and just when they got to the Nang Power PATH, which is you know, high altitude on the border between to Beth and Nepal, they entered sected with Louise Benitez, an these mountain climbers who were climbing Choi you which overlooks this high pass. So these two groups converged over several weeks. They didn't know each other. They came from completely different. What

said life you have been a starving tibetan refugees with Dahmer and count among family men coming the other way. You have very, very rich western timers who come from you, no money, and I have decided that they want said kindness said a mountain say the two groups converge, but at the same time there was a third group converging which were chinese border troops who somehow heard that refugees were escaping and their their orders are shoot to kill

anybody who times have an escape from Tibet and that's really work in it. The three narrative threads my story converged that when the gun started to go off now you said that there are people document in this war will get to that as well. But what happens that actual day, these border guards start firing on these people? Why are climbers shocked? Why is Louise Ben PETE's shocked? Why are these climbers shocked if this is something that people can expect? If there have orders to shoot to kill? Maybe you could tell the audience why this is so unusual, then why? Why is everybody in shock? Is there something unusual about this particular day yeah

I mean you know you climbed to mountains in pymol, air or Colorado or Alaska, and you know the last thing you expect to see on these trips is soldiers firing on women and chill run and an end to refugees, save the climb the rough in camp, and now you know waiting to be the next stage of their climb, and you know modern climbers have also to the main issue. They take. You know wine and whose up there there and they have very good food. So you know, even though it's a pretty tough environment, they still have a sore creature comforts of home. You know they watched for DVD's and I think the previous night there being kind of watching the matrix in their tents. So you know, there's still a lot of sort of

semblance of what happens back here in the states or anywhere else, and they wake up in the morning. You know in the morning and they hear pops and they think it's somebody setting off fire crackers, because it's at high altitude. What else could it be, then quickly that they see chinese soldiers running into camp and guns out and blue using away? And they realize that obviously, some things have running down. They see this sitting king row of an immediate will what they think that I can see the small black for the figures, which you call said: the Refugees and Darwin and ah I'm amongst them and the soldiers far away

and so when the bullet start to fly. You know some people to get his now explain who how's Sergei, if I've missed browsers, get. If you can correct me, Sir Gawayne Matter and am Pavlov Kojak capable of taking photographs and Sergei my tea, video grafting are or videotaping some of this work the event itself. How did they become? They were part of the decline with beneath as or explain how they became how they came to be there and and also were involving documenting the murder and Andy soldiers shooting on these innocent people.

Yeah I mean there were, I think, around twenty to thirty expeditions on Choi you at that time. So there were, you know at least one hundred climbers in advance sort of base camp which is, Where all this took place, sound Sergei, I was in Romanian, he was actually professional cameraman that he was there on holiday on vacation and wanted her climb. This mountain then The whole thing that morning erupted soldiers started to come. They start his open fire, and you know it was his first instinct to grab his camera in his video camera. And to start filming it, and he knew very well that these were refugees. The soldiers were firing on was you know like it?

It wasn't other soldiers, it was. It was refugees which has some said again. The Un Convention and all manner of other things that he started to film yet have to understand that the atmosphere in China in Modern Bay to Bess is very, very impressive, and China doesn't want this type of thing coming out soldier for soldiers. Don't they don't want people taking photographs, they don't want people filming there. Sam really, you know you take your life in your hands and it really is like the wild West, and I think Sir J really put his life at Leske, but was determined to film what was happening, which is what he did and he captured this as the groups

Is the group of refugees tries to escape and I think there were probably twenty to thirty soldiers and they were blazing away. They k forty sevens and, in the distance small to figure, fell down on the snow, an collapse in a heap and miss high kept filming, and this figure that fell in the snow was the subject of our story. Kelsang NAM, so, yes, it was cal saying he was shot in the back and killed almost instantly. I mean the murder it was it was. It was neither of the refugee, and

hi great terrific lifetime. They'll make sense to have evidence of this. We shouldn't unit, which has never been done, I mean it's. You know China's always saying everything is fine there and it's ok, but that I had this evidence now. How does Louise Benitez become a more what figure in this he he is worried about his business. He has is pretty bad.

The goal here is an agent, but, despite you know, his moral dilemma of you know risking his career and we've alluded to that. Tell us what Louise Benitez does and says and how his actions really affect this entire story. He looked on a tool best, you know shocked as much as everybody I mean he'd, been on numerous climbing X. Peditions had never seen anything like this. It was just you know. He just didn't know what to make of it. You just sort of slack jawed. His first reaction, I think, was to get himself and his clients out of camp for him

going to the safety and for everybody else, and they carried on to with the planners normal, and the plan was to climb up the mountain there about halfway up, so they packed all their stuff and started climbing up the mountain and as they left camp and head up. They walked past this small black figure in the snow, who was Kel SAM Nam so who they Dave Glad that much kind of later, but they carried on as time, is due and walk past the body in they were very intent on reaching the summit. Is there a girl and then he says kept going again, but this time he had a crisis is conscience. He began to realize that

It will. He knew that they were refugees and he just witnessed a murder, but he didn't quite know what to do about it. So he kept climbing up the mountain and kept sort of going and by the time he got to the next camp, I think he was very angry at to what he'd seen that these chinese soldiers had opened fire on children and sort of refugees. So he decided- perhaps he we're going to do something about it. So he brokamp he let his client cake,

Carrie up on their own and he got back down to base camp, which is a couple of days after all this happen by this time and sat down with his laptop and satellite connection, an emailed out to a climbing website x web about how he just seen chinese soldiers murderer refugee and that's how the story, got out on the mountain and that's how people started to hear about is itself it's her. You know like repulses around the world started to get on the story. It came open networks. You know

really the fact that some China with whoop was was kind of dream. Ass. You know said he you know, but I think the time I'm not sure if he knew it sooner, but certainly because China doesnt want people talking about this stuff. They ban people who speak about their human rights abuses. So by Louis doing this he put his career at great risk because he had to be ever so high time in the mountains for his livelihood. Right, the the other part they is Sergei. My tie is a guy thinking that maybe the Chinese will. Will retaliate for him shooting this footage, so it's it's interesting how parent, but he is and how he thinks they baking

They have a long arm to reach out to him. How does he get the footage out of the country? And where does he go and how does the world react when the story is broken through this footage and who is the first country to really step forward and do something well he's the course absolutely paranoid the soldiers have seen his film is. There is actually evidence of this, which is like any other mother, and you know, people carrying out murders, don't want to witnesses and they particularly don't want somebody filming is and the people leave carried it out. You know Sir J was was gay terrified that they knew what he had found them in the atmosphere of the climate. Can, I think, we're variant

Kennedy thing there were sold, trying to find Tibetans in in a really round everybody up, I'm I'm in the courts, forty to refugees and car carted them all off to a prison and tortured them. Then surgery had this tape and he kept it with him at all times and hit it in a pouch which she had like around his kind of waste, and then he and his climbing partners laughed an smuggled this out of the country and managed to get back home to Romania, where they were from an immediately.

The romanian television stations got hold of the tape and started to broadcast there's, and this was really when the sorry took off to mass effect. I mean, then he says the american climates, an email doubt about it, but with no pictures or footage. So you know people, you know people often don't trust these reports in a year to have any evidence of it and much. I put out this tape, which was broadcast and got bought by CNN and the BBC and started to be sharing in the states and Europe, and this is when the whole storage is kicked off, and I should add that 'cause a day before

The Chinese have been asked about this matter in the mountains from beneath tat his email, and they said no, you know this is not being in. I say nothing happened. There was a standard border, sudden, but you know- and they were very vague about it, and so nothing had happened. But but the tires to the footage changed all that it changed. Everything- and here was error. Fusible evidence of a murder and the world could see that and the world did react. Yes, I mean people, you know people work, apps, lately shocked and poorer than in a his China about for his violin pick game. You know,

in two thousand days couple of years. Hence- and there telling everyone that life in China's grace and everybody is really happy. And here up on screen dual everywhere other chinese soldiers, opening fire on children and an people escape ping. An quite clearly. You can see a small black to the figure falling in the snow which we discovered was Kelsang Sonam. So, at seventeen year old from theory who wanted to get said, India 'cause she wanted to be able to practice her faith and to see the Dalai Lama, so her best friend Doma makes it to freedom and tells the story tell us a little bit about that

yeah to Doma made it through and she got her India an again. You know. A key part of this book is that China tries to ensure nobody says anything about what happens there. That there's this conspiracy of silence that everybody's party too, and Deauxma realized that by speaking out about this, should never be able to go home. She could never go back to China again. Well, she never go back to to that. So she could never go back to her family or to see her mother again. You know she would be forever an outcast Ann, she decided because of the memories of her friend and the fact that people don't hear the truth of what's happening in to that sub stand up and to tell

tell the story: no mass, the cost, no matter what it cost. She was going to stand up and tell what and to have friend and how she was murdered. Say she proceeded to do that dumb. She gave interviews on television and radio and you have to remember to that. You know she was really just a young girl. She was sixteen and had no experience of the West or like the outside world, so to stand up with that type of courage at that age. You know against some military superpower is extraordinary. Yes, it is absolutely yes, an incredible story in the story doesn't end there, because Tibetans are emboldened, then in protest, and so the story does not end anywhere near there. So there is much more to the story on four

definitely, we've used up all our and and people will have to go out and purchase that book and read the rest of the fascinating story. There is quite a bit left to this. Sorry- and I want to thank you very much Jonathan for coming on the program and talking about your book murder in the high Himalaya. It has been very. Mobile, very informative, that's a great book. I say. Thank you then turned my pleasure to enjoyed it too. Now I wanted to tell people that it's murder in the high Himalaya and Jonathan Green is the author. I guess you can get this book anywhere Barnes and Noble everywhere, their favorite bookstore. Obviously, Amazon too. I I think you know it cheapest. I can get Amazon turbine unable at the moment, YAP Arabs you have to do a great job Fisher. While I want to thank you

much again for coming on the program and talking about your great book murder into high Himalaya loyalty tragedy, an escape from tibet- and I want to thank you very much for coming on and have yourself a great evening drama. Thank you my pleasure. Thank you very much. Goodnight. Even listen to the program. True murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have written about them with your whole stanza passkey with my special guest, Jonathan Green, a murder in the high Himalaya good evening.

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