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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Dc Bundy Dahmer the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer, true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. Nothing like it before. Nothing like it. Since order ink was the most unusual brutal, an extensive collection of characters. The american underworld had ever produced culled primarily from Brooklyn

Brownsville and Ocean Hill sections, these official on call killers of New York's, larger crime, syndicate, we're unified force of jewish and italian gangsters. They treated murder as an art form for an entire decade. They were called mobsters thugs, hoods and racketeers, but at the very core They were assassins when gangland king pens, such as Louis Lepke, Keeble, Kalter, Charles Lucky Luciano and Benjamin Bugsy Siegel needed a contractor filled. The combination boys would eagerly take to task the enforcement duties, which included methods ranging from gunfire the fire axes. Incineration, two ice picks. These are the

mysteries, the sorted stories, the character profiles, alluring and lesser known, tales of the mobs most deadly hit squad meet the killers, the victims, the bosses, the lovers, the deceivers and the gangsters that made up a nationally reaching out some cast rivaling anything organized crime or law enforcement has ever imagined to that point in time. Discover the nuances, the attitudes, the motivations, the ambitions and say two little honor among thieves, the scale revelations that lead to an inevitable downfall? The book they were featuring this evening is murder ink mysteries of the mobs most deadly hit squad with my special guest journalist and author Christian Cipollini welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview.

Christian Cipollini Dan. Thank you for having me again always a pleasure. Thank you very much, and it's always a pleasure and we'll get right into this most extraordinary tale. For everybody that thinks they know about the mob. This is one more layer of understanding. I believe incredible now you start off by explaining that that the mob was not designed not organized, not operated for the purpose of killing. What was the purpose of you know? What was the purpose of the mob and before we get into murder, INC Itself basic economics to make money the mob existed

for achieving the american dream just in a different way than legitimate society. Did it wasn't our killing or being brutal tough guys that comes with it. You know, because it's such an illegitimate, thing they were doing, but not was about making money. It was that simple. Now you say that, like any any Organization, even legitimate corporations, the They operated the same way. They have accounts payable, they'd, have public relations that have logistics and then would have an enforcement arm. So we, always know that. There's somebody is going to do the dirtiest of dirty work. Tell us about that. What how How did that come to be and how do they pick people for enforcement? How does that work? It's it's

A mind boggling, but I don't know: twisted in a way back to the whole thing, They needed a self policing unit. I suppose what happened. The short version is the the guys who were becoming big time. Luciano Lanski, Boo Culture, all those guys. Some of them had been watching these younger hoods and what they had achieved on their own and it's sort of evolved, into situation where they figured. These guys would be good at handling the really nasty stuff and They brought him in these guys were these younger guys were looking to make a name for themselves and they were doing that in the yes, this guys I saw it happen

Eight saw what was happening so that's sort of why they selected them. There were they weren't? None of these people really shy from murdering anyone and in sort of the course of doing business. But what were the things that really brought to attention these guys that the system enforcement arm? What with the kind of in actions that we're just not going to be. You know not going to be brushed aside. What would bring the enforcement arm, this team of guys to your door? What kind of rules were you not never break well, obviously, if you were suspected of SP, speaking to law enforcement. If you stole from the mob. If you want- to exit the mob. These are just a couple of the reasons in

where to get a death sentence in and, of course, we're talking about roughly nine. Teen thirty through one thousand nine hundred and forty is when these guys were doing it, but the big things were, obviously stealing from Your own people are skimming yeah, whatever you could get killed for you know A couple dollars is one of This is one and done, but the worst thing fraction, the one where you were probably going to be made an example of is, if you were thought to be a stool pigeon. You want to be a rat whatever you want to call it that that, usually got the worst punishment. Now, when you talk about when we alluded to it, who are we mention it in the opening about incineration and ice picks?

for many ways to kill, someone has been in many ways of sending a message. What were these guys, sometimes known for? What was there? Were they characterize their behavior will say of these guys? That would would kill, especially when it was an informant. The word psychopathic definitely comes to mind with a few of I know I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist when you see these guys go from young man and shooting someone to. Evolving to the point where they would use an ice pick. For example, and one of the best examples to to this picture. There was A reporter who wrote an article. About one of their their murders and how

characterize. It was if it takes three plunges of an ice pick to kill you These guys make sure they tack on fifty more plunges of that ice, pick for good measure and then Sitting out a have a lobster dinner, it's It was brutal. They they made this they made a point of becoming more and more brutal as the years went on. What's interesting, too, is that where they basically got? Some of these guys from like we talked about in the opening was from Brooklyn. So thanks, why in particular Brooklyn and then tell us begin to introduce some of the characters that were the main players in organized crime? At that time, like you saved in this

air of this decade of of horrific murder and the men of the reign of Murder INC in particular name. Some of the main players in this cast. Well, these guys, the ones that that were the core of what would later be called Murder INC, we're Led by Abe kid twist, trellis. They were a handful of jewish guys and tell you guys from Brooklyn and be, and it could any part of New York in there were guys from the Bronx and other areas, but it just so happened these guys all sort of joined up there, gangs as young men and took out some up and coming other gangsters the really big up and coming gangsters, saw what happening in Brooklyn, and that's how they became part of it it it could

anywhere. It just so happened that these guys work really well known within seen and outside and outside of Brooklyn, constantly being constantly arrested. Let go for Crime under the sun, they were like gang who like to be known for what they did and that caught the attention of guys like Luciano, who is basically a Manhattan gangster, and you know boo Coulter, who was racketeer in the one area and beyond. These guys saw this and that's why they sort chosen, but other guys that was Harry, happy may own hairy pits. Burgh L, Strauss, Martin, Buggy, Goldstein, Frank Hacer ABIN Dando? These were the main dice of the group. But they had higher.

Guns that would do maybe one or two jobs that were from other areas, even other parts of the country. This became national by the MID 1930s. These guys were going all over the country and had contacts in various parts of the country. Lucky Luciano tell us about the rise of lucky Luciano because as a couple crime bosses that were obstacles- and so you can tell us about this sort of fifty this conspiracy here, basically for how he came to power with much arena and Merrin Gonzo when the members on all of so tell us right, rear, earns on and and and look lucky Luciano and this play for power well that I sort of did this book to follow up my last. One which was on Luciano And- and I kind of knew this would be a fitting, follow because what.

Happening in nineteen. Thirty, one thousand nine hundred and thirty one, this major mafia, boss war, an Luciano and his body's, both italian Jewish decided. We need to take out both these guys, I mean, and you know, obviously, I'm I'm over modifying this, but here, were these young Turks basic They saying we gotta get rid of the old school. They knock off both guys by the fall of nineteen, thirty one- and at this same time. It was a parallel thing. You had these young guys from Brooklyn who were take over rackets from other young racketeers it It was like two parallel worlds different scales of size, Luciano Lansky, Costello book, alter all these guys Basically by the end of nineteen thirty one had Changed the face of, or

organized crime and some people will argue how much how I stand by this. They changed it. It was a whole new era by one thousand nine hundred and thirty one Ann at the same time, these young guys they knew It was going on with all that too, and they were doing their own little thing in sooner later. That gap is bridged and that's how the murdering people hooked up with bosses right. Well, by that time, Luciano was a boss. Lansky was a If you want to call you know, they were all bosses, the the prosecution, the authorities, the God They notice to these people were despite when we talk about organized I in denial in the 60s in the 50s right one forties that there was such a thing as a mafioso.

Authorities knew what was going on here. We're determined to try to take these people to court. Tell us about the state of prosecution at that time in the 30s and some of the attempts. The first attempt to try to take these guys to court and arrest them and have them imprisoned. But with the guys that were in murder incorporated one of the biggest problems this is, he was dealing with These guys had money and we're developing a lot of backing and had recent lawyers, and they could march in for any infraction. In months later, he dismissed because witnesses wouldn't come forward or to just wasn't enough evidence and remember, of course, we're talking about a time before there was any csi or dna so basically these guys were getting off Scot free and

prosecutors. We're go going after the big fish for the most part. They were going after the cultures and Luciano's, that's who they were. They not know for a decade that those guys have all these under linked carrying out hundreds of deaths that were all connected to the same group where there was this. This disconnect and plus you don't have like today, databases, you know you had Brooklyn. There would be people here that know about this, but they don't know about it in Manhattan or queens. Necessarily until comes out the newspapers, of what happened. So it was very difficult for the judicial, system for law enforcement. To put this, altogether until one thousand nine hundred and forty.

They're not really known for leaving too much forensic evidence, namely you know they are well versed in knowing how to dispose of bodies for the most part you would. You would think you would say it's it's funny. You bring that up because they here's something that happens when you're too much of a narcissist or too cocky you It's going to come back to bite you these guys got away with a lot and no there wasn't a lot of evidence. Bodies were buried in lime pits and, jumped in lakes, but some of them re. And these guys were even at times stunned that they weren't, I don't know well, is medically versed or scientifically is versed as they thought they were as to what happens to a decomposing body. So again that, actually, that that's more of

when your head gets too big, you make mistakes and they did it's Joe. I think Dan. They were very, very lucky for a long time in that they had such a. Support network to protect them. Now? You were talking about they, they weren't as well versed as they might have thought that you do so. You give some prime examples again little bit gory, but hey that's program the audience can handle. Do you cited example of them underestimating their ability to dispose of a body just give us that one example of the body they threw in the water well rested so the ice pick. A fellow gangster and I'm just I'm not throw this out there to to put on the book. It This doesn't make it right. In society, did pay for this

I mean there's always collateral damage, but really a lot of their victims were bad guys too it just. I just want to point that out. If these guys rocking chillers to own one. Examples: Walter Age he was one of their friends. Fellow gangster did bad stuff, they thought he skimming the order came down. Take this guy out. They take him for a ride. Ice pick on might think 50s. Sometimes they height is body with pieces of metal. Roof on In the late, and and a few days later or if you actually was two weeks later, people are a tourist or out having fun at the lake and up pops. This bloated body in the middle of the lake and horrified everybody and the guys didn't understand what happens with a tiny hole that an ice pick does to a body

it actually ends up ceiling itself up and blows up with the gas is in it lifted parts of a car engine in that body came to the surface. That's how they did not under. And how that happened. So eight It just goes to show they were a little too big for their britches. He is really old school term. What we're seeing in this almost one hundred years ago in 1930s and anybody it's a big fan like myself and probably big part of the audience knows this from watching mob stories is that is that how do these guys really get to be able to do the kind of hits that they need to get in What I'm saying is that they really these guys, are a suspicious lot like you say these guys are fellow killers and been around these guys who are killers and so their cautious. They know the

real. They know what really goes on and yet they're still hit. How does that happen?. Are you know? That's maybe the million dollar question Dan, I think A lot of these guys were very over, operate and even though you would think you're, naturally paranoid and cautious in my research and again, none of us were there. We don't know and just based off general psychology, it seems to me they did Think anything would happen to that. It's like you, walking down the street and just taken. Nothing is going to happen to you. It's going to happen that guy across street, even when you were part of it. So, what happens on top of that, and it's like what we saw in all the mob movies. Your butt These are the ones that are going to kill you and they're friendly in, of course, that pulls you too. You feel that comfort. So that's what they were.

IL murder ink didn't just strangers and they did kill a lot that you know they Personally know, but they also killed a ton of their own over the years, because there's that comfort level, like the exam Walter State. She had no idea, he thought he was going for a ride like he always does with the same guy. It's just. He had a contract on his head that day. Yes, now you talk about the Abe. Realist gang kid twist and your outlook about something called the Sullivan to Solomon LAW and then tell us about the Sullivan Sullivan LAW in in a release, gang and again process. Use, trying to prosecute these guys effectively and put them in prison. Okay. The short version of this in early 30s,

the law was instated, is the piggyback laws to disorderly conduct. What they were trying to do is cry back down on some organized crime by arresting people in large, if they spot Did you or your friends were criminals? They could arrest you all and then figure it out later the law came team under some scrutiny, of course, because some judges thought you know this isn't right, but what the police, thought they could do is grab all of you like they could grab the whole Rallis gang just because they, these guys are bad, bring them in and then try to hold them on vagrancy, which basically means you, don't have any money. We can hold you for a hundred days and there's. Nothing you can do about it, but what happened that backfire? All the time, these young gangsters had money.

They had lawyers and by then they had impressed people like let he and Jacob Shapiro Luciano. So these guys had a whole network in place of bail. They had houses, they had cars, you couldn't say it was vagrancy and some judges, even though they knew these guys were bad. There things were tide? They said we can't. You can't even use this law. So it was. It was a weird time for legal issues as well. I mean it was quite a dynamic that whole time period there there are so many factors that we into how Murder INC actually existed in thrives for as long as it did. Now you go on with with the and talk about Meyer Lansky and in some of his cohorts in Bugsy Siegel, so tell us a little bit more about murder ink

and how it came to be known as Murder INC, murder. Inc name was definitely a product of the press. Not that it's any different than today in terms of hate, the most eye catching outrageous headlines or what cell you know, the news, that's why they did it. There was definitely been debate, over the last century as to where The name murdering really originated in. I addressed the couple of the theme because I found in my research over the years that people have discussed of who really came up with it, but it was definitely a name that stuck once you now the whole case broke in early one thousand, nine hundred and forty, it was quickly dubbed Murder INC. Those guys. Themselves stand. They refer to that group.

Is the combination, that's what they called themselves. We're combination, guys, murdering again, was You know, label by the press. Now you outline. A lot of the characters that people have been interested in mob stories would know, of course, like parallel elective Luciano and and Luis Loeppky Bookwalter at Maryland. Ski. But you do have quite a bit of information on the you know the striking characters that are the gang busters as you call them John Harlan amen. Thomas. Do we William Decal man, all Burton Turkus so Taka, especially about a William O'Dwyer Ann Thomas Dewey. Both district attorneys tell us a little bit about Thomas Dewey. First introduced this character well,

Dewey was definitely a politician, the he had aspirations, he saw his future by taking down New York crime lords and he went after the big fish he went after book called. He went after Dutch Schultz, he went after Luciano and he this quite successful. On a lot of those levels? Are it made a name form? He was who's basically I had celebrity and then Dwyer he came in as the DA for Brooklyn and he going after what what I put in the book is like the lower tier type of gangsters. But it ended up wow. That was even to me that was even bigger than what do we did.

With the murdering but yeah O'Dwyer came in, and he he I I see a lot of it. Was luck in how this whole thing unfolded before him, because really it was Burton Turkus, his assistant district, attorney, that was that, true gangbuster a man he was. He was really good too, with what he did. I think he opened the door for it, but that's what he took a lot of people just like with the mob Dan there's. Never one person, it's it's a whole sort of alliance, or you know where things are just aligned perfectly. Now with these lawmen, when, when do they get, an inclination that there is this enforcement arm and who some of those members might be

When does that happen, and who is who can you say, was most responsible for discovering and putting things together to say this? Is this enforcement arm it's murdering That discovery we do that too, really I'd have to say John Harlan. Heating realize it's time, but he was the one that really started probing all these guys in the candy shop that they were hanging out. He knew something was really wrong. Something What's going on in that opened the door for O'Dwyer and Dewey to an extent who was already sort of beyond and going elsewhere by I really I really credit Jaune Harlan for crew. In that door open and then O'Dwyer there's O'dwyer well, if you know in the book you'll see there, there's some controversy even over what he didn't didn't do during that

in Burton Turkus. I really I think, was the man that totally smashed it. It's an interesting tale that you have as well and is very important to the story. Is you talked about the candy store in the motherly figure? That was the front, for it rolls, I believe so tell us about the candy store and its importance to this story into these mobs the relles gangs. They were called Name what murder INC was the they all hung out at a candy store in Brooklyn, which was operated by an illiterate old lady who was Grandma Ann She and her son and and his cronies ran different rackets out of the joint or she allowed it. Let's say and she made some nice money from it

These guys eventually made her candy store their office. For murder incorporated, it was. There were a lot of people involved. That's why this book there's so many names that, because there really were a lot of people involved, but yes, there, ground zero was a candy shop in Brooklyn and tell us about law, enforcement's discovery of this. Well, that that was definitely John Harlan trying to in a Brooklyn they can hearing these names of abrella, listen and happy may own and Pittsburgh Phil, and these guys that were always milling around this place. They knew there was gambling they knew there was bootlegging. They knew there was prostitution. They knew there was morphine being traffic through there and when they started, to put it all together

They realized. Oh, that's why these guys are always hanging out here this is where they basically take their phone calls from the bar Our bosses? telling them. Here you need to take out this person. You need to take out that person that that that's really how it all unfolded in the short version also mention a detective named John. I not so tell us his importance to the story. What does he do? I was not was with the wire during the very first interrogation of one of murdering underlings that what really broke the case open was OZ. Ann o'dwyers little reverse psychology plan to get this young guy named Anthony Duke

map that or to Icsp same to them. What the hell what was going on with with these other guys it was. I don't want to give away what they did to him, but they eventually got him to talk, and he was the very first one too, start naming names, and it was. It was incredible downfall from that minute. On. Now we won't give that away, but tell us what the prosecution, Finally looks like when they, I believe it's one thousand nine hundred and forty when they finally can right. I have to take this too a courtroom and make these charges stick. So tell us about that: initiative well very, unlike today and and not always for, what turned out to be good but, yes, this was a little more swift literally within three months of

finding out what they thought was going on. They rounded ever everybody up that there any name that came to mind they round them up and they immediately started putting two to three guys on trial together, and they were going straight for the electric chair. That's what the prosecution wanted, so by May of nineteen forty, you, today? It already started put these guys on trial. It was that fast, and I'll in game with that Dan. Oddly, where I say, there's sort of a downside to this again, we're not talking about a time where you had a lot of evidence to use. They were basically sending people to the electric chair based another bad guys. Testimony is pretty much and not these guys, weren't, really bad in in the prosecution, knew it it's the same time. Could you imagine that today we're just couple people get to go on standing in the center of the electric chair? Eight, if you would just do it it

it's hard to digest in certain ways that something would happen now. It's wouldn't happen now. The thing is, we talked in the introduction that everybody talks about how they kill their own if you're an informant, that's the worst offense ever they have this murder INC to deal with those informants that would dare to file their their bosses and their their fellow gangsters and be an informant and really the key to the successful prosecution is guys turning informant right from this murder INC so tell us about the first first guys that jump ship and help. The prosecution, the prosecution britney locked out

Part of it was was very clever thinking, good. They grab the younger guys. Who were not the biggest players in Murder INC, but we're very privy to the act, use of murder, eight EAST a young family man they knew. We can probably break them. Becaus, I would say, one of the biggest mistake, the murdering boys made I was having so many extended people in all in one way or another that had knowledge of the worst stuff. They did so prosecution, breaks a couple of the young ones, the young ones, who are always hanging around here and see everything So they start talking naming names, the bigger guys, most of them didn't, talk except for.

And this is what I say- there's no or little honor among thieves- the biggest Cool list member of the group, Abe Reles himself decided to save his own skin. As well when he heard other people were turning informants and he was prosecution, star, witness, then, so even their boss, their main guy, turned uh. You know states witness against so it was. It was definitely a lesson or you would think it would be a lesson. There is no honor among thieves. When these trials began was the media response. How was it received? Tell us a little bit about that about the coverage of the testimony and tell us about that.

Speedy response that was well. What was national and, of course, by the time the press was really all over. Another local class was and, of course, the term murdering Willis label. That was it. Then everybody was using it for once the news broke. As these guys were national yell traveled around to do hits it became, one of the most sensational stories of the era. No, they were. Definitely if you, you know you had the Lindbergh baby thing going on. You know in the course the war would be out what was going on. This was sensational are for sure, but yeah especially in New York, obviously because because you can imagine being there at that time and just have not being able to fathom how it's. Sense of this was, unless you were part of it, our lives, you know throw it

maybe some of those people weren't surprised. So, who is the you say a realist? Kid twist is their star witness. What's he like on the stand when he finally gets there? What is the main like. How does he act is he? Is he a good witness, and what kind of information is, Is providing? How is the tell us about the details of that interaction In terms of going up on the witness stand and delivering testimony? He was good in sense that he told everything what it was creepy and odd about it is that he was very non salon even in his own actions that he admitted to, and there are moments where is even questionable

what drew some controversy or detractors against the prosecution One was just that: how can you use the guy that it needed to basically killing someone in his own house, while his mother in law was in a sleep in the next room? Yeah How can you use this guy in expect you know. Anybody to feel some, thing when he's your star witness, so it's a double edge sword, but was he grew yeah prostitution thought he was a godsend because he was, is the boss of that? That group and he told on all of them yeah credible. Now how effective are they in terms of actual numbers? You you say this would not would not happen now

Now- and I would agree with you that there's no way that this stuff would happen, especially in short order. So tell us about, how many of those people are convicted by this, these techniques or in these courts, and so tell us about sort of their success rate. Well when you look at the whole Picture an these trials went on for several years. It first it look good, because immediately they were getting dust sentence is for the main guys, ok, like real, quick, but then those went into appeals an it almost looked for a moment like some of them. Might you know what ries, set up happening. There was a lot of these other. I want to say that standing members a lot of them. Oddly, he walked some of

Asket were given death sentences and we're able to not only walk away from that walk out of jail. It was not, I think, prosecution was happy Dan in this b. The main poster boys, but they Didn't get a lot of the extended players, these guys, like a lot of them locked out either but a few years in jail or got out of the death sentence altogether. Some got no jail time. So you never know what's going to happen in Corda. You know everybody knows that you never know. What's going to happen right. And you say some people that deserve dole Sparky. There didn't didn't, get the chair and and really well, so you do talk about and chronicle the ones that did quite well in the in the guys that didn't do well at all. When you say some of these death penalties were carried in fairly short order compared to some of the states. Now that taking a fifteen years on death row, so right right

yeah in in regardless of how you feel about the death penalty well yeah. The wait is way too long. Now, I guess and back then it was way too quick say this, the the one trial that I personally think was questionable to say the least, was lefty Louis Capone, an Mendy Weiss. Now those three were put on on trial and they were all executed together, but there is plenty to show. I don't know that case. They really should have executed. Lefty I mean you know he was the boss, Boston call these orders and it was weird and the other two guys were basically bad guys too, but the ones that really did the crime that they put him on trial for weren't. Even on trial for that crime he was a weird thing, then it's and I'm not a lawyer or judge, but I

look at it like wow that one I think they just wanted to fry everybody and What ended up happening is a couple years later, a lot of the guys that they still thought we're going to go to jail or whatever walked free either retired or became criminals in a different realm, so he, the prosecution really didn't win and in the end anyway, were there any player that arose in terms of defense of some of these gangsters. Say the tide turned in in the short in the four years of these trials are so write really good and then. Not well what happened right, they think they have such a strong case and they did not what I was gonna put this is they blew it all on the first few trials and they got their death sentence is, but when it came to all The extended bunch,

they ended up not really having as much as they want it, because certain witnesses, all of a sudden were like- I don't remember- or I didn't you know- I'm not sure it was him and then defense. It became a little better, a little more savvy to it, and- reduce sentence is for plea, bargains and all of a sudden people were going free or getting a few years in prison. Now, just don't get me wrong. Some of them did and dying in prison anyway, but There were more than a handful that ended up walking and that's why later in the book, I have a whole section called. You know. Whatever happened to some of the stories I could find about these people post murdering hype yeah. Well, let's look to talk about one of those stories too, because one of them I thought was very interesting and I probably see this the stuff regurgitated a recycled in fictional, bounce about the wife that believe

I knew who had killed her husband Testified or went to the police and then at some point recanted that or had some kind of memory lapse, tell us about that. Oh, there are a few cases of of that one of the one of the best ones, how to be L C, sign. She, was married to a guy named SAM Feinstein. He was, he was is involved with the murdering guys decided he wanted to go straight and he started verbally ics. Resting that Well, that was a bad move. In one day, SAM, goes for a ride and he doesn't come back, though you guys from murder rankings then provided LC with fifty dollars in an envelope every week. Well, one the murder trial, started they brought CNN question her and she acknowledged that her husband, disappeared

They didn't. You know they know where he was and that she was getting fifty dollars a week from the mob. However, it was it was brought. It was brought to the attention of prosecutors. That was not tell the whole story. And go around the whole story. One of the state's witnesses Albert tick. Tock Cambon had a Sixteen millimeter film of LC frolicking on and each with three or four members of murder incorporated. He brings the prosecutors, in what really had to be one of the first ever used cases of sex, lies and videotape. This guy had a home movie of all of them partying on a Miami Beach, and is

Nba Burton Turkus is described what he saw he you know he said else, the frolicking around in a bikini the size of two handkerchiefs, with all the guys that basically killed her husband. So We presented this tour, she tried to say it wasn't her. They locked her up a few months, and then she had a change of heart and admitted that yeah, my husband was probably killed by them and I partied in Miami all of them yeah. It was just it with a stranger in fiction, is just crazy stories. That's what I tried to do this book is give all this. The wild side stuff that isn't is covered as much. Yeah, the other thing too was- and this is another one- I've read as well- and you know I'm a big fan of the sopranos and yet right out of real life read out of true crime.

Am you talk about a hit on a on of the wrong person? Tell us about that story which is fascinating. Yeah they will want to take out, Somebody involved with you know, unions, and you know strong, arming unions and Loeppky decided to contract needed to be put out on this guy. They sent. Parisi, Seymour Magoon and copy Migden to go. Take this guy out copy Mcdean says all I know who he is. I know who he is I'll point him out Jack Parisi is going to shoot him well here. Comes this guy out of his apartment, walking, street to go to work, Parisi C blasts. They get in the car. They go home and find out a day later they killed completely innocent guy? Who happened to physically look like the guy they were supposed to hit and let

I've been same buildings So that was an epic fail on their part, but back to you earlier about guys that ended up getting off uh. You know what All three of the men involved basically skated from that one. That was a perfect example. In turn state's witness one hid for a few years, the other head for ten years, and then when they were caught, they ended up getting off of it everything. Anyway, it was again this you just can't make this stuff up how this all went down. Yeah. You include what happens to copy they're, not too happy with his eyewitness account of who the victim was supposed to be no no and it's amazing he didn't get killed. Just for you, messing up that so bad. But you know what you blame 'em all it's it's the whole thing, these guys thought: they knew everything

They they really did in granite a lot of times when they didn't know who the guy was, and we're told or shown a picture. They were successful a lot of times, but for the most part again, there's such an arrogance. I think it's one of most fascinating parts of the whole story is the unbelievable narcissism across the board. With these guys. Now you talk about murdering being this unprecedented. You know murderous group that rose to prominence and Carried out all these assassinations, for this trial in the forties beginning in nineteen, forty. Did organized crime, obviously organized crime, the membership changes all the time. That's one thing about it, always fresh right, but did the last.

Shape change in terms of did they learn any lesson from having this enforcement arm go so public and be so such a loose cannon? Such an overkill and so much attention from from the forties and so tell us if they learned anything and it did. They conduct themselves differently. After this. I I would, I would have to say It absolutely they did. I mean there was actual discuss. Oceans, are, you know, gangland Lord, you know some of the even top bosses, didn't really like how it was going on anyway, the the ones that were a little more diplomatic and then there's some debate that even the diplomatic ones. I thought you needed. You know killer arm, it's just they got out of hand and all so you're talking about by one thousand nine hundred and forty a lot lefty was executed. Well, do you know by the mid forties? Luciano was already in jail.

He he always kind of try to stay under the radar. Frank Costello, you know, was a shaking hands with everybody, so he stayed out of a the trouble but you also had the actual mafia was. Had evolved from nine eight thirty on into the five families. So there was a whole new dynamic I would imagine he had learned a lot of lessons from what murdering did. It's in here. The other thing when murdering ended, I don't I like to say it ended because it didn't just and people didn't stop getting killed. It was that that ten year span ended, but there were still things that lag in and carried over, you even to the mafia as it rose, and then, when the jewish faction sort of assimilated more in the legitimate society, yell was a chain like you. It was a g,

change of guard membership. The way it worked. I'll ask this question to did Execution learn anything from the again some of the missteps that they did in this almost fifteen years of trying to prosecute these gangsters. Did they learn anything at? Did they make any headway themselves in terms of changing the laws to accommodate themselves. When they're trying to prosecute these guys. Absolutely, I think it took a long time for it really come in and I'll go as far as say, like the Rico ACT late. You know many many years later, but What happened in the early 1950s is this didn't die in the eye, this is some of these Senate committees. They really wanted to know how it's it went well in how things went badly with the murder INC? files and they were there for calling people a lot of people before they

the question and say: hey, you know: how did we, how did this get screwed up here? and why did this happen here? So it didn't just die and I do think the it improved, you law enforcement and you know how the laws were applied, Yeah, you read it from that decade, Dan, my God, so many missteps and wacky stuff. They definitely aren't. What we didn't talk about is that there were some spect There are fines, burial, ground, shallow graves, tell us a little bit about what you talk about in the book about some of these discoveries. Well, that that is definitely a fascinating part of it. Again for almost Ten years, all these people disappear and nobody's putting tune do together and it was very hard to. There was no way to really put two and two together once they did in nine,

forty and we This is were taking them to dumping grounds in the Catskills. There were properties and lakes and yes, lime, lime pits with bodies New Jersey. They we're getting rid of the cars were they murdered people in pieces in junk yards throughout Brooklyn. Everything was being disposed of, but nothing is truly gone, so by the end of nineteen forty two they had found not all and that's why I will never know how many people they really killed, but they did find a hell of a lot of bodies and carp, parts and other things that were related to these killings. On witnesses, remembering and saying saying: hey, let's take a ride. I'll show you where they dumped a bunch up in yeah how are or Monticello New York it

is crazy stuff. One of the great aspects of your book is the photos that you were able to get. I mean the incredible amount of florals and the quality of these photos are just incredible. The stuff of, if you're, ever interested in the stuff you've got this incredible collection. So tell us about this incredible collection. Where, where is this your? resource and tell us a little more about through photos that you've included all right. Well. First, I have to give I have to give credit where credit is due. I really got hooked on acquiring these kind of things from a colleague of mine, Arthur NASH, it we that his book, just that did it. I was hooked, Like a crack addict, then I started like going after these. In what I end up, doing is

getting every press photo or police, photo mug shots of these guys. And what it evolved into was not just getting photos, crime scenes and these guys, but also the locations, because back then newspaper. August first took pictures of everything not Just you know somebody walking in handcuffs the like example, the picture of the junkyard. To me That may seem like nothing special. But to me that's one of my prized in the can it's like the actual junk yard, search from murdering yeah. I have this. It's my it's my other main thing, I like to say I'm a writer and I also like to say I'm a curator of weird stuff than yeah. I notice that you would said your private.

Collection. So I said a interesting, very India, incredible yeah now with this with this book, has there been any? Have you ever get any gangsters mobsters guys kind of this, doing some of the things that are in the book and with this book was there any any contact at all like that, any kind of antidote that you might be able to pass on. No with this one actually well, nothing not in the way of detractors, which that's fine to anybody, I love to you know find out where we were all wrong or whatever you know when you write when these books 'cause we weren't there, but most of these people are dead. What was fascinate

ng is that I did another colleague and friend of mine, Michael Moore Dean, his grandmother story with with tapping own and get in letting me use a photograph of her and telling me how she just passed away a couple years ago and used to talk about these guys. She knew them. And that was incredible- the only and when I wrote diary of Motor City Hitman now there were people who are still alive from the 70s that were that book, but most Sam was very happy that the book was written in in. I was cleared up on some things that were in acting on it, which was great, but no I've never had anybody like They detract yet. No that's good interesting! So now, what did you find anything surprising after all the research you did on this and being you know, basically for better term? You know an organized crime expert here from the research that you've done in the books that you've written

was there anything really surprising, really surprising to you after writing this book I'm sorry, I'm losing my voice and I've been fascinated with all this stuff for twenty some years and the I was surprised at every turn, and in because it puts you in your place. You're like oh. I thought I knew that you know everything and you don't, but what really surprised me the most, and maybe it's not in terms of oh, my god, that's shocking. It was re. The question that I wanted to ask. But didn't know. What question I was asking myself when I was writing the book, and that was what did these guys really really think of themselves. And when I found the quote, which You probably saw- and I'm not going to say what is that bugs he go. Old steam gave in the early 1930s to a cop and a reporter. I think it totally answer the million dollar question. What did these guys see them?

and what were they aspiring to? That was the most shocking actually find wow there The anti know they actually said it, what they thought yeah systemic that that to me, yo yeah, exactly men, incredible so now for people that would like to know more about this. Do you have a website to do Facebook tell us how people might contact you or find out more information about you and the other books that you have written Sure my website is gang legends, dot, com, I'm on Twitter at zip, the scallion at CI p. The the scallion I'm on Facebook me up. I welcome questions, comments, complaints that anything I love it. I love to hear what people Think or I had to offer an. I certainly helps

if anybody looks at my books at it, makes them want to go, find out more from whatever source. That's part Why do so? I love it? Yeah come visit, say hi. Absolutely. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about this mysteries of the mobs most deadly hit squad. I mean we lot of us have talked and not talked about it, but basically no. We think we know about. Murder rank it's finally good to hear the low down and this and for everything, but it was interested this evening. We did leave a lot of things out. We did there's a lot of spoilers here that we we didn't. We did, give everything away. So there's a lot of information in here just blow your mind and, like I say, there's so many stories here that wow. I thought that was a fictional story, but no sure is. True, true, true life story. So again I want

thank you very much for a great book murder INC and for coming on and discussing it with us this evening. Thank you very much Thank you Dan, always a pleasure. Ok, you have yourself a good night. You too, bye bye. And now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, the would the cheetah and learn your animal isn't the cheetah, but the far appealing blobfish

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