For readers of true crime sagas like Tinseltown and Little Demon in the City of Light comes a chilling account of a murder that captivated the United States in the 1920s.Twelve-year-old Marion Parker was kidnapped from her Los Angeles school by an unknown assailant on December 15, 1927. Her body appeared days later, delivered to her father by the killer, who fled with the ransom money. When William Hickman was hunted down and charged with the killing, he admitted to all of it, in terrifying detail, but that was only the start….Hickman’s insanity plea was the first of its kind in the history of California, and the nature of the crime led to a media frenzy unlike any the country had seen. His lawyers argued that their client lived in a fantasy world, inspired by movies and unable to tell right from wrong. The movie industry scrambled to protect its exploding popularity (and profits) from ruinous publicity. Outside the courtroom, the country craved every awful detail, and the media happily fed that hunger. As scandals threatened the proceedings from the start, the death of a young girl grew into a referendum on the state of America at the birth of mass media culture.David Wilson, a private investigator for over thirty years, captures the maelstrom of Marion Parker's death in vivid detail. From the crime itself to the manhunt that followed, from the unprecedented trial to its aftermath, Wilson draws readers in to the birth of the celebrity criminal. NOT JUST EVIL: David Wilson
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers crime, room murder, with your host journalist and author Dan good evening for readers of true crime. Sega's, like tinsel found, and little demon in the city of light comes a billing account of a murder that captivated the United States in the 1920s twelve year old, Mary and Parker was kidnapped
her LOS Angeles school by an unknown assailant on December 15th, one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven her body appeared days later delivered to her father by the killer, who fled with the ransom money when William Hickman was haunted down and charged with the killing. He admitted to it all of it in terrifying detail, but that was only the start. Hickman's insanity plea was the first of its kind in the history of California and the nature. Of the crime led to a media frenzy, unlike any, the country had ever seen his law argue that the client lived in a fantasy world inspired by movies and unable to tell right from wrong. The movie industry scrambled to protect its exploding, popularity and profits from ruinous publicity outside the courtroom, the country saved every awful detail in the media, happily fed that hunger, a scandals threatened to proceed
Things from the start, the death of a young- we all grew into a referendum on state of America at the birth of mass media culture, David Wilson, Apriva investigator, for over thirty years CAP use the maelstrom of Marian Parker's death in vivid detail from the crime itself to the manhunt. It followed from the unprecedented trial to it Aftermath Wilson draws readers into the birth of the celebrity criminal. The book we're featuring this evening, is not just evil. With my special guest journalist and author David Wilson, Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview David Wilson. Well, thank you. For inviting me. I really enjoy the opportunity to talk about the the book tonight and talk about little bit too about the implications of
chase for type leave up to the reader. But for me there's some personal opinions about the significance of the case and why it's important to kind of take a look at it in retrospect and see how it's influenced everything from that point. Tell our audience how you came to be. The writer of this book tell us what weapon made to be in a position to want to do this book and that this was important to you. This was a good question very quickly case It was originally brought to my attention by my brother, who was a film major Usc actually went to school. There same time is RON Howard and he fancy themselves. Is a bit of a film historian and IRAN into the story back
and we got to talking about it and he gathered some of the documents of sport. I've written some other books in the s. Many of I'd be interested to buy Johnson. You are jump it too. So it was really a compelling story. He had done you don't know. A fair share of the research and convince Maine this was an important my stone in the history of justice system in America. Yeah certainly is now, let's get to the time because you do provide this incredible again vivid picture of an portrayal of what the time was like and again in nineteen twenty seven, and we think many things are different, but so many
Things are very, very similar, oddly enough. So, let's, let's talk about where Perry, Parker and Gerald, in Parker, Ann Marie and Parker lived, sort of an affluent little. Unity here in around LOS Angeles so tell us about this little welcome. Did they lived in what it was really like, and what was considered at and just a little bit about the Parker Family and what Mister Parker did he worked at so go ahead? No, I was just gonna, say interesting in there long enough. I grew up well fairly close to that same area, in the late 20s, I think, LOS Angeles, was still a bit more. Rural than we imagine. There were still farms and ranches in the city which How long gone, obviously and there was kind of the seats of
I would call it community- going towards the workforce, so they were starting the concept of tract homes in bedroom, but the particular neighborhood for this happened was probably an upscale upper middle class neighborhood, but it was probably naked time 'cause. It was built at the time of the story where most of the I think most of the upper middle class neighborhoods throughout their list of the country were older and you know tend to be more brownstone and more stable. This was a Miller community built for a specifically the targeted audience So I was kind of sold on the the idea that it was safe and that it was people will sit the background and it was. It was kind
Is America agreement signed in some ways now Perry, Parker Mister Parker worked at the first national bank. He did my hobbies White house. It's really good go ahead. I was just said he worked at the bank. He was also well known to today is part of the interest in the story. Is that a lot of the players and characters and figure soup had a role in the case actually knew him personally. So he was a well known with banker he, Was respected took his job seriously. There was no Pennsylvania. Bad behavior on his part are are in terms of the way he conducted themselves as a banker and. He was just. He seemed to be well liked and everybody who and counted him through the
investigation and trials is known before had nothing but positive things to say about. Yes, we will talk about those again bizarre, almost to strain. Connections with the next door. Neighbor being you know, so we'll talk about that at that time. So now, let's, let's go to December 15th. Are there in this community there fluent there in the safest part of this community. It is a safe time relatively because of the crime. We're going to describe was unprecedented at the time it shocked the entire nation, if not a lot, the world so December, 15th, one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven and Mister Parker gets a call from Nyomi Britain which is the school secretary right and she calls to ask if to see if the family would want to have Marians twins,
Sister, the twelve year old Mary that we mentioned in the beginning, her twin sister, to come home as well, and then tell us what Mister Parker deduces from speaking to Nyomi Britain in short order and then yeah. It does well, though, your little context, the schools calling because the someone would come by come by the school to pick up Mary Parker. Take you to the hospital to supply mostly her father was in and uh mobile accident. It was your father. Pick up the phone and he obviously was not at the hospital you're not doing it actually, but then he had not authorized anybody to go to the school to pick him up his daughter, and so he was immediately Concerns dressed realize something was wrong and.
The school realized that they had made a significant wonder. It has to say now there is a chance of zoos, a stranger taking in May, ghetto schools, probably my existence at the time it was a little more positives- is more likely around that time, but even then they had their rules and restrictions on who could take a sticking out of the school and for some of those rules, were not really followed closely of the the principle who should have authorized the release. It was not available and the secretary made a decision, based on her belief in the credibility of the stories. So she went with we. So in Hickman who had come claim to be George Flash, I think it was it. Was she used time
and said that he was gonna, take Mary to the hospital because your father had requested, and I think that perhaps It's not clear if you knew she had a twin sister or not, but he certainly only asked for the ones daughter to be fair to the secretary, because in this is partly because it came quite controversial shortly, or immediately after us is that this guy had the fantastic cruise? He was well dressed. He had this daily, but he also had he had offered to say. Oh I work with. He knew enough where Mister Parker work. So he said I work at the first National Bank with Mister Parker if you would like to call them in provide my identity so He was good enough to bluff and nobody took him up on that. So to be fair,
that's an unusual role that body of work today, that's a good point and, and he knew some details- 'cause in fact he had worked, for Parker. Several. Earlier in new. Do the routine Newberry work new personal details about the man's life, so it was not She was making up a story had some. Information to work with which made him even more convincing now, let's get to this phone call that he gets about, and he did do. This- is what happens with his daughter in that she's been kidnapped by this man and so they're scrambling to find out. He contacts police obviously tell us what happens next and what he does and and what is the police reaction? It's interesting. You say that the media early, of course, I think he may be a suspect so tell us help
please proceed with this kidnapping. As far as I know. Well, really, the we can ever obviously told Burke Parker not to contact the police that are that she can come and sing in kidnapping cases. Rarely happens at work, but that's certainly a common request and. The police had the drop off spot under surveillance. The first meeting and apparently saw them notice them felt something was wrong, and didn't follow up with the exchange which made the father really upset and as he got more and more upset about that, but please became more and more suspicious of him and the
where you got off the current move. Sure he start with sir now there's a there's ways of he's: communicating there's the phone call they put a tap on the floor is also using telegraphs and then he's also thence sending packages so right the second one he he talks about. Using this common theme, he uses use good. Judgment, their fear is dangerous, and this progress is, as time goes, on, 'cause there's this more than the two communications. Now now he tells him don't get have the police involved. So what is Mister Parker do? What is he asked the police to do and what are the police Do in response to his request? Well, he insisted there on this on my second drop off that he go alone, then
you'd be allowed to make new strains without them. Watch universal movie run the risk of the a second failure of experience in the vehicle. Please, sir, agreed to his terms of that now the terms are our fifteen hundred dollars us seventy five: twenty dollar gold certificates- that's just one of the stipulations right right. Yes, any here shoot where and he always talks about this death close to death, Mister, Parker and and Trust, and
and so so he says an it's always if you interfere. So you know from from a psychological point of view, I think he was my The foundation to deflect his own guilt and into human comes clear as the case involved just clear in many cases I did a lot of work. Doing criminal defense, work and criminals who commit especially serious times have a tendency to Petco does is blame. Others do everything except take responsibility for their own involvement. So it's It seems to me in his behavior. He was kind of at least. Preciously laying that foundation. Now with the.
The first communication he realizes it to police have been notified. So he's angry so he indicates that in the correspondence, but what he gets in the correspondence as well. Is a note from Marion Parker just to add to Mister Parker's torment. So what essentially say in that little note, uh It was remarkable detail. She was asking for her father to cooperate, Do you know in the odd part of it is, is maybe jumping ahead here, but in the course of her being kicked. That she and he seemed to kidnap the movies you know, so she was you're very site and or not fighting at all. It's not really clear from the evidence is available why she was so, let's say, compliant with this request, but she
Definitely wrote her father and definitely ask him to corporate. And there's another note as well, where she, where she obviously privy to the conversation where the kidnapper is upset and says to reform there. I saw you or you know, dad you got operate. Orel I'll, be he'll, kill me, so it seems pretty authentic in terms of yeah. I believe she won't know it's absolutely in his account later He claims to have killed there in a fit of anger and that it was not his intention uh
So yes, it obviously before was killed. She was anxious to be released and certainly was making. The flame certainly was adding to. The stress. Are fatherless even if he was caught between the police and the need to accommodate the kidnapper and- and he was a wealthy Manson, the money wasn't. So we have a good for excessive. It was usually available to him. So I'm sure he wanted to just follow the instructions, get it over with and move on. Now you have this heartbreaking scene in here at all. All of this, in the very beginning is, is mind. Blowing is that the Police- Lucas and Raymond actually believe again, the prime suspect is Mister Parker. Somehow I don't know how they just the fire that rationalized that, but at the.
Same time at the end he says please, I can you know this man, going to kill my daughter. I want just pay the ransom and they think that's, I don't think that's a good idea, and yet they still think Parker still main suspect. Sorry what does he do we? We alluded to it in the introduction, but we have to go into detail, because this is one of the most unique crimes. Murders scenarios that I've ever read and read a lot, and this is one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven so to explain the shock of the nation. Alright, we have to talk about what the Father is warned by this kidnapper but he is determined, doesn't care about the money? What happens? What is, these instructions, and what does he do take us through that? Well, he tells us. Obviously come along. They meet on a street near the house.
And the father parked and then the Hickman comes towards him, and comes of parallel to him and he asked about the his daughters condition from the from the father's perspective. It looks like his daughter is in the passenger seat with the car and so they make the exchange of the money and and man pulls down the street and tells the Father's worried before exam he picks up his daughter is. It is a part you were talking about. Yeah, yeah and uh, and so in that short.
In term pickman takes who's daughter out of the cart who his daughter is dead at that point in his daughter has been sadly mutilated in the sense that there are limits and legs have been removed. Or I would have been sewn- and she said a hat down over her forehead, so she's hard to see if she was essentially propped up with a heavy overcoat. And made to look like she was still alive so when her father comes and discovers the condition she's in Maine he's obviously devastated and goes back and tells the police that his daughter is dead and I have to say the police it
or we're, not real sympathetic and they also or turn key their suspicion of them. With that credible, Now you write another again amazing aspect of this again. It's one thousand, nine hundred and twenty seven be surprised. The next day on the front pages, are photographs of. Crime to us, and we just talked about this or this articulated arms. The elbows legs at the knees twelve year old, with their eyes, sewn open, so He could flew her when they rode by in the car that she writes, will be alive. This ghoul and no. These are the stories the next day. These are the photos on the front pages of the newspapers in California and and further along.
What do the police do now when we what what's their direction while you're a loose from the in those days? It was common for please note our crews actually to be free. They have the kind of CSI in this that we see on tv nowadays and you know the cars partner, sometimes that hold as a journalist photographers, but clearly, Somebody probably only investigation, gave the photographer access to the pictures. It's very likely that there was a bribe involved and No, it was kind of the beginning of the outrage around being sensitive, certainly the time since minors being sensitive to the kinds of photographs that were released and
you know China clearly raised the issue of what information could would and should be released to the public, and in fact that issue became more pronounced? is the same. Pictures were actually used in newsreels. That became a significant issues nationally action. When you talk about news, will let the audience know if that what these were where there was two feature, films, and then there is a cartoon and then there was a newsreels which was the news of the day as gory as it was. This was unprecedented graphic detail and this be same controversial as well, and not everybody Thought that was fit for the theaters in the family. Where it actually was more significant. Now
some movie theater owners refused to show them flat out said we're not going to show this. The studios got a little nervous about the fact. The the. Cedar over should have that kind of power to decide what they wouldn't wouldn't show hello and the issue over whether it was appropriate where always the Congress and really kind of generated then we'll say, effort it censorship and what's called the hasty mission, which was a group to determine what couldn't couldn't be shown in theaters and to also make a kind of extensive list of what subjects were and weren't appropriate for Phelps you took about
Louis B Mayer Famous film pioneer and at the time too, it was just. It was still uh, no sound for film, so the sign films right, and you also talk about just the time that it was at this time, was the heroics of Charles Limburg frying from New York to Paris, the first telephone call from New York to London, So you talk about the times and you also talk about how mayor really was looking at you cite. Can so tell us really what he looked at and what he saw this case as representing to talk about his. He was a staunch anti are anti censorship person. So tell us why We saw in the in the canadian rulings and what potentially could see from the backlash from,
New newsreels- and in this case right, yes, listen, there's a number of issues that converge for him, particular in Hollywood. In general, there was, the fire in the movie theater in Canada, were, I can't remember, exact number, but it was. It was a couple of one hundred kids burned and there was serious concern in Canada and serious pressure to make going to the movies illegal for children. You know that represents then, and now a big percentage of the movie going sure Public and also you know it was also the time they talk. Talking so we should have been out yet. But Hollywood was moving in that direction and uh. Myers told that is the potential big pushing the market and a significant shift and.
His real concerned about the case didn't Happen until after hitting was arrested and who claimed he was insane by virtue of being addicted to movies, so I just sent Hollywood in that is it. You know they just that. That was the last thing they want it because the debate over whether children should be allowed to see movies was in full swing and also the issue of censorship, which was really triggered by his case, and they're. Not they should show the gruesome pictures set up that were a part of the newsroom looking for his case, they have triggered that debate and for him to have claimed to have been insane by virtue of addiction. The movies was just too close to home, so to speak, so the need to
Really women are, is video. The suspect in the case was slow. A priority for Hollywood. Now you know it's easy to demonize. He was. He was obviously. Person who had serious mental issues and did awful things, but the question that raises for me and it still goes on- is it the job of the media too Second guess: the outcome of the trial and really trying pose Their perception of the case on the public- I think, we've seen this almost unreal ATLAS Lee since there and my personal opinion is: that's not always been a good thing. Now, let's get back to
do the crime scene. We have the media response. We've jumped a little bit ahead, but please still don't have their suspect, Mister Hickman so ever so. How do they possibly find out? One thousand nine hundred and twenty seven police work. What happens? Well, it's interesting there's, you know we're all familiar with the term, drag from the tv series dragnet was actually a police tactic that was invented by the La Police Department, specifically Chief David, came up with the idea, but it dragnet was is, if you have it, crime committed this in a particular part of the city you literally sent every available, please officer into that part of the city, to knock on every door and talked to every person who was remotely pot
people of committing crime, and there was no real regard for probable cause or legal connection to the crime they literally would Give you everybody, and if anybody was even remotely suspicious, they would bring them into the play searching and hold them until the person could verify their alibi, then build it and the crime so that whole process of just scooping up large numbers of people and shifting through them was called it dragnet and they certainly initiated the very intense drag, obviously because of the heinousness of the crime and then the process of doing that they actually interviewed Hickman without realizing. He was the suspect in part of the dragnet process. Was too fingerprint everybody
you know and again, with little or no problem costs at the time. Hickman was that he was first interviewed. He was fingerprinted and he's here inside the panic. So he stole a card to leave the city. It is really almost. Blind luck, you know now our computerized, so you kind of stick a finger print in the computer and you wait until it searches the files it's. It is relatively quick process, Really LOS their use, you have to you, have with her. Thank you, Fred experts who, through the. Analyze, whether called the world's and swirls on a fingerprint and There are certain general categories of whirls and swirls and they were kind of organized based on most general cattle.
Sorry, but within a general category, that could be one thousand samples and the only way you could match a fingerprint was to literally check By hand by eyeball every. Fingerprint your head and records record against the fingerprint you were to Benefis are typically, it was a slow and laborious process that could days and weeks, but one of the detectives involved in that case self it because the car was stolen near the crime scene, uh
there there was a chance that the car that was stolen by would be kidnapper and he took the center for Kerr and rolls really quickly the match to move the suspect at which point to a. We went back to re interview and he had left uh in the stop in another stolen car and they found evidence of the crime as department, so that identifies him, very quickly and early on it was the pharmacist. Now. This is part of the controversy for you throughout this whole book and not the throughout the whole trial is
the confessions and contractions. Yes, all right away, he he starts talking. And what does he say in that first confession and who was the first confession confession to here? Are the spectacle with he steals a which is our culture, cars, I think, maybe three but the enemy he also picks up hitchhikers thanking the the well given the coverage is thriving wall. Loans will be too obvious, the the suspect, so he picks a few trackers. Two hitchhikers call the place in Pendleton. Arguments say that they were given the right by someone they thought was suspicion since someone that they thought match the Descrip the suspect and the they gave the disk from the cars that cheap place, so he staked out the only road through town S the car. The car didn't have California place.
The uh full. Car over anyway, when Hickman opens the door, his gun falls out of his lap onto the ground and she Gives his first kind of semi confession at that point. By indicating that yeah you got me, he definitely gave evidence of a guilty con when it goes into the play so she know in nineteen twenty nine criminal investigation wasn't very sophisticated in Pendleton or the chief of police, was the chief in the patrolman in the entire police force and I'm sure had no experience at all with the homicide investigation. So this was all
Carly Newt, and we also had a very hostile environment and that the citizens in the city. You were ready to lunch. A guy and he was trying to appease them and also do what he thought was his duty is police officer in homicide. Detective investigating the whole thing, so he brought a reporter in and confess this to the reporter, which is you know, beyond inappropriate, really absurd the reporter obviously Peter is any kind of rights you can learn. More of the rights were not affected with you still make the rounds of the given the circumstances. It should be used in court where a church talking to a
order was not that circumstances so that the reporter didn't even take notes. He wrote is impressions of the confession by memory when he got back to his office, so it was far from they would call it definitive confession. But during that confession, Pikmin tried to deflect the crime to someone else who you said, pressured him into going along with it. And the confession was immediately. Print is in the local newspaper, so the district attorney Los Angeles was less than pleased with how the arrest in the interrogations were handled that that now, as you write they decide to,
go on to transport him and during that transport ride they have numerous p, well there, including the district attorney, and they want to get a confession from their confident that he will give it to them that he will give him details. So does he give it to him why has he given? What does a godly give authorities actually took him presence is first one. Uh Shirley, great forward, there's some indication that He was pressured with threats to give the confession, which now these days would have been normal. I have to say and then he needed to this.
Return. He wanted a motive which is actually not required in the murder case. If you wanted one to kind of lock the case in, and so he made. The second confession, but I didn't say it specifically in the book with the implication: was the threats got more intense and That's true. If you're gonna make that allegation. Historically, you need a little more evidence in the most available, but you certainly didn't have any defense attorney didn't have anybody that was advocating for him. He didn't have anybody, right, and it was warm of turning the long training right with its three detectives chief of police, in with this turn of that has to be room to grow a bit intimidating for, for
What it, let alone, a young man of just a minute, the card with him was clearly grappling with his own mental health issues, and this is the time they find out because they thought it was. The only way to find out is that they actually when to the movies together, internet victim, you mentioned. How does he explain how he, how does he explain how he got her to be able to do that, though? Well, he claims city was treating her nicely. Also, he had. The self perception of himself is a being religious. He considered himself a christian gentleman and he in fact the story. It's real bizarre. At this point, he asked for the one thousand five hundred dollars 'cause, that was the amount of tuition for him to go to five
old school, so they come up minister. So in a sense you almost call the doctor Jekyll Mister Hyde. There was the persona of the good really just born and raised in Kansas, who had good manners and good home even wanted to act lightly? Improper? people are memory vicious criminals. Created one group and with the mutilation on the body of the victim, I mean you have a renewal rock icon, be there which it it actually is not that uncommon among solution wrestle to press her, no real conscience, so they pretend to behave appropriately.
If something triggers them, there's no real filter in terms of expressing their emotions, and he seemed to be certainly struggling with that. The counter diction well, we did mention two is when you talk but the christian gentleman that's what he had said to Mister Parker. He said and again what I thought was a horrifying fact. Was the police at that time obviously leaked details that he was not supposed to tell police people they liked it too, the media and he the night before sat there for hours and hours with the supposed exchange of his daughter and but So we, when you mention that christian gentleman that's the language he used. If you I want you to give you my word as a christian gentleman and that was at last. I guess the the tipping point for him was that he,
was humiliated and and also disobeyed, so blatantly by having those factors he thought it certainly must have come from Parker. Not he couldn't imagine any other reason why, where they would get that information Yes, yes, yes, and then all contributed to his. We actually the case. He went through a bit of an arc himself. I don't know if you want to jump ahead on that, but. Please seem to recognize that he didn't have a real, strong moral filter, but he all- who believes that his right to do whatever he wanted. It was divinely ordained in that God
it considered him special in which he had the right, pretty much do whatever he wanted, because she was going to do great things at more. Yes, well, let's get to the Flossy and a bit which also very fascinating again. We gotta get the motive part part of the media and also the public's reaction here now, while he's on this train, doing this confession on the train giving the motive in his again narcissistic sociopath, mind. Some rationale is trying to to convey to these to the police beef in the district attorney in the detectives, this train stopped at every major city, you right allowing media and the public gaze at the vehicle of justice. It was, it was what I would consider the
ground zero for the whole idea of media circus in the Pope walked me to secure the salute to the bus. Stop, it was extreme and it was so bad that it actually, the reaction from the public was so bad that the chief started to get nervous about the safety of his prisoner and actually set up a ruse to arrive at the main station, but actually stop before they got there and get the suspect off the train. So there wouldn't be a big crown crowd in any threat to his say, Interesting you to that Hickman went to find a lawyer. Mrs Hickman went to the lawyer for son? So how does she get the great defender? Her very first choice was Clarence Darrow
So now he said: oh, I can't do it. You know I can't be involved, but really, as you write, he couldn't be involved 'cause. He couldn't practice law in California. But Merck did recommend somebody, so you write that he wrecked Jerome Walsh right. So so tell us again. This is we mentioned. This is the very first Times in an insanity. Defense is used in California. Are you also do a little bit of the background? We give that context as well. So tell us a little bit about the lawn just previous to that, and then this insanity defense has novel it might. Yes, we I think we need to double bedroom. Girls will surely one of the great lawyers in american jurisprudence when he was famous for the video
strokes monkey trial, but he had to bring chart you didn't. You can still go jury tampering in California if you're driving a juror, and so you couldn't even come to California is on remember. There was a warrant for his arrest, so he had to stay at in state which is kind of an interesting contradiction because he was social reformer in the lawyer, but obviously not above. Corruption at some level, but he was also committed to a social movement at the time, which was in favor of eliminating the death penalty and he picked walshe because Walshe was also against the death penalty. You know, and that raises an interesting question in terms of the variability of the council 'cause. They both have an agenda.
Of wanting to use the case to kind of publicize their cause What's your name, which I have to say, is not always the best to gender for someone who's going to send you in the area criminal case in the lawyer has to be free to make the solutions with Simply support the situation situation, the not their own personal political views. Why you the correct there, but it's done all the time for that business. Yes, absolutely and I've seen I've seen it work to the detriment of clients. You know.
We are on the other side of that he was in the gym to know he couldn't afford to turning the the representation you got was ultimately confident skills in looking over the. Trial strategy. I'm not convinced that the lawyers had the best strategy that would have been possible. For him it's time, and that was in fact true, defense in defending people charged to homicide with my specialty is investigator. So I've got some extremely The next refused mentoring, but it can consider the time and to consider the potential juror and to consider the outrage. You talk about the outrage at times. Twelve year old girl, it's members mutilated, are left in the bag. You know so.
And everything is political. I mean the diese everything he says. Every press release is politically motivated and calculated to a certain degree. So what do they do with in terms of this? Insanity You say you don't agree on on their strategy, but when you talk about the mix, Mountain rule, not everybody knows that, but that clear definition of insanity. In terms of distinction knowing right from wrong. So it's a pretty hard hurdle to overcome that somehow you, through the onus, is on you, the the And to prove you didn't know right from wrong at the time of that crime. So how do they proceed with? This did know right from What is what is there, of course, but yeah? Let me let me let me back that up this a little bit rock and roll originally was the step I was in London, England and England has a different so
When we do in England, there's not there's very few statutory law clause, laws of the laws are based on. What's called which laws are the ruling of judges from the bench. Does that make sense? I hope I explained it clearly so that the Mcnaughton rule was a case involving someone who attempted it slipped assassination and the judge determine that he was insane. You know the difference between right and wrong and therefore not capable of forming intention. Ok in the United States, you can't be charged. With any crime. It's not written down as a statue it in the something illegal, so the crime of Murder is actually uh. A homicide have intention and then there can be different forms of intention. There's actually is some variation from state to state on what constitutes the harm.
Titan what the level of intention is, but just before pickling was arrested, the state led Sweitzer had passed a new law, defining how the Mcnaughton rule could be used in the in a murder case. So If you go the most criminal trials, the prosecutor presents the case. And then the defense tries to rebut it. Based on the legislation in California, at the time, the the only with the oh The only way can you still hear me: yes,. Yeah. Ok, the only way. The only way you could plead insanity is if you first gave a full confession to the
and instead of having the prostitute to present the case. First, the defense presented their case from Sandy first, which is complete reversal of the normal criminal process, and in those days there was a big budget for. Preparing a defense. You know he required expert testimony in psychiatrist and so and so on would call, I think, Thirty days to prepare, he had one or two interviews with minimal number of doctors and uh. I just think at the very least defensive turn to these. Could have asked for delay in more time for preparation and tootsie
this leave and send it into a broader context, but the thing that you couldn't do and the president that was sad and which is still true you can't, have a normal. How start trial. Where you plead innocent, then you get addicted and then, at that point in the proceedings you decide you're insane. You have to go into the trial with that defense that point of view, and then the judge has to make a determination if there's sufficient evidence for and uh Can you please to allow that to proceed and, I have to say the judge who did rule on it was very articulate than there Ac Rowan in fact established the precedent for that
access to this day now you also talk about which complicates this story as well. Is that this narcissistic sociopath here in prison, writes a letter or headed for his friend, but the guards find it before hand. I want to get the exact words that he says, but what's basically the gist of what he has said in that letter to his fat, a friend. Well, it was actually the second time he approach the subject he was looking for,
reasons, you're looking for behavior. That would indicate and send it, and in fact he is asked I believe reporter. When his mission, we arrested the same question that he had to kind of play. He was obviously looking for reasons to grow category that apparently he was trying to say to me. That's the logical samarra's from those kinds of questions. Now you talked about what was interesting. We haven't mentioned this either, but we alluded to it was that there is a doctor Wagner.
And he is the person right at we go back, had to look at the body of this child and yes tell us what the coincidences before we talk about. The other branch of the house he's a key. Yes, sir, the doctor was Parker's neighbor. He knew the victim in the victim's daughter, had watched them growing, up, grow up and also I recall his initial or on top they only had portions of the body and the the the searches your weapon limbs were delivered the next day and the rest in the papers. So, in addition to it being a gruesome or topsy one, that was probably unperceptive unprecedented. For him, in the sense that that was an uncommon climb, he probably never had a similar autopsy
to actually do an autopsy on someone. You know that wouldn't be allowed nowadays and I'm sure it was extreme way to his credit, I mean he was able to do it. I'm sure was sick, speak strangely upsetting, and he said as much you know so, but you know if you're going to present your testimony in court and it comes out that she knew the victim that would just be. Hugely prejudicial towards the jury. So you know that with this was a One of many presidents that was set that case now. Let's talk about a little bit about the main character here- and this is this Hickman Hickman makes numerous statements, but the one makes a statement to the jury about his great providence, all his life
and this statement is read out- tell us about his self importance and his idea of Providence, we are Providence, was his law. Language for I would I would describe it is, for it was his language for his description of his belief that he had been touched by God that he'd been chow. Listen God for my God for special destiny and the support of what he called Divine Providence lifted him above the norm. All rules of society and morality and gave him a blanket the permission to do whatever you need to do to get what it was he wanted to, and in the christian world. You also right about the time that to explain extreme will behavior. It was considered
The result of the influence of the devil Ann, right? So then, when we look at the psychiatrist at time they had a a term psychiatric term. Dementia Praecox, right- and this is a four runner of schizophrenia. So right what a I mean, even though they don't have much of a budget, the still got a couple psychiatrist is the key to diagnose them and right to to say that he has a disease that would run insane doesn't right. Yes, that's actually disease no so longer recognize I've studied it a bit but the disease it, Is this essentially latin term, referring to the fact that the patient believes that possessed by something or someone, either spirits or right bother with everybody. You know the thing is interesting: is the definitive study of that phenomenon and the
psychiatrist who defined the with the conditions of that Phenomenal was Carl Jung. Who was one of the founders of sight I think, actually, when he initially wrote it was his doctoral thesis, was defined. The symptoms of Demetria, Paris, and doctoral thesis. He lists. I think about thirty. Symptoms, plenty of those he can explain, in psychologically and as causing mental illness, but about ten of them he leaves on answer, none resolved kind of open the door to the fact that some forms of altered consciousness canal, actually in.
In the consciousness of the patient, now that's not to justify the behavior to say that he was in fact touched by God, but even at that time the diagnosis itself was not particularly definitive, not particularly widespread, and certainly not accepted, Sorry, all psychiatry! those who would be called on the testify. Now you also write a new juxtapose. These separate parts in terms of having the Hollywood, the fledging Hollywood want to counter again this. This story is not going away. You meant right newsreel, some states won't want run. These newsreels, and then there's also talk, because you mentioned in Canada, where the roman Catholic Church gets involved and so
and it seems so tell us what basically, they say about films which again really Seems obvious ominously, like not so long go in America. It was actually the beginning of a debate that. I'm not really sure has been resolved, and I have to say that personally have mixed feelings on it. There was a concern of the influence of films on the development of young minds. I think a case could be made that that might be true, you know, but you have to check slows of that against the right of freedom of expression, and then of course, have to juxtapose that again against the of parental guidance and who's wondering what their kids are doing and
watching. I really think that was the beginning. Dialogue and the conversation moves led up to some of the question about whether or not Barton Vt Business Games of in Florence, the some of the mass killings reducing the last twenty years or so, and I have to say from my experience the given with Saddam murder cases maybe that that influence should be. There hasn't been fully studied, certainly was not understood, and two time literally terrified Hollywood in the thoughts that certain films would have in it your influence on childhood development. Was seen as a serious threat, the the industry no back at the court case. You talk.
Vote, the media being interested in the public being interested, so this court houses full and to the right of people very, very interested in this. What is the demeanor of the defendant at this trial? You know he seemed more or the kind of oblivious I don't wanna say amused with, but to see more of a difference and he he Please give this truck. I I believe that he was trying to project a Persano being above it all and that he probably had we've made his peace with the fact that he was going to be convicted and x.
If you do, then I think you tried to he made it clear. She is for me trying to justify what he did dry and blame the father and two wives circumstances to turn to make the case that the slain, with divine Providence it shows for him to do, was to be carrying the very. Role model for what not to do and how not to behave if you were a young man growing up at the time and then he kind of made some effort to transform what he did into something that noble which should I size ten hard to identify with our except to the it was ironic about that is he was actually rates for what he did it by air Moran who wrote the book Tour ACT which are at the shrugged, which was turned into a again the precursor for a lot of the self help books in the
The kind of the self help seminars in the whole life coach movement of you know takes you your life in random slot that he was the first example of what she called the with, well iped involving male. I think she cry actually thinks he called it Superman. But she spoke up. People actually there on their own in full swing. Right, be the noble said, search sure there are she held press conferences where she threatens the and or Offered her support and he had was someone to emulate, not someone to condemn, and it actually caused controversy look in her own movement and I think it lost her some following, but the fact that people were
even entertaining the idea that the turn kind of. It was one of many kind of ground zero discussions with the merger on the case that the new modem, Certain extent remain unresolved. I don't think anybody would argue that he's a great person, certainly the notion that the self interest is to the elevated explored the news server still commonly accepted in certain expressions of self help. Lucia. I was, I was totally shocked, not an expert on and ran, but I couldn't see why she would have see any justification or any admiration for this guy at all and it hurt her movement. I I could understand that, because I can't see. The rationalization for now. What was interesting, too, is that again,
like you say, there's so many issues involved with this. It's like a confluence of events occurs and this so many so much ground breaking precedent in here as well. In terms of they talked about insanity at that time and they call the delusional insanity and then they, the lawyers, tried to argue that he inherited from his grandmother would been Institute analyzer fifty fifteen years earlier and they also cited because at that time they do. No, I think, a little epilepsy, so they said was first cousin is epileptic, so that was your article cases, the lap collapse. The grandmother was in Spain, so somehow they try at every angle at this insanity did, he was Luzhin from the movies, but also from genetically he was insane or predisposed to insanity did, they argue right
I think enough for me, having dealt with some of those cases. You can know the difference between right and wrong and still be delusion, And mentally ill and uh, I remains unresolved question whether or not working a treat mental illness in criminal cases. He is clearly manifest, but does not meet the standards of the novel. I think issue that we haven't really fully come to terms with this society. Now we are go ahead. I was just saying that doesn't mitigate either way for or against the penalty, but There's certainly are you know. I've dealt with cases where I knew my client was not dealing with a full deck.
Dealing with reality and yet understood that they had wrong. That becomes a hard kind of negotiate hard to know how to proceed with it and. You know your choices of insanity sandy, so what that does really become an option. So rhetoric, it's it's it's a topic to the warrants for discussion. Lucia and I'd also say that How long do that? people exhibit what I would call or a parent or deviant behavior. If you tell such a hot ticket for the media I'm not sure that that would like
becoming a celebrity. Criminal speaks well for the possibility of creating justice for the defendant either. I think that. Becomes increasingly difficult, especially as media becomes more easily saleable more widespread, more instantaneous and more opinion. You know it's secure version of the topics of this case turns was ground zero for the the. I don't think it's been fully resolved, well, you know you have we don't have the debate raging eyes. I think I'm sorry, but our street, you see more and more of these cases like you, you talk about and will mention it again, because it's interesting you talk at the end of this case and we'll talk about it is James. Eagan Holmes
July, 20th, two thousand and twelve, and why you mentioned that tell us why you mentioned the homes case July. 20Th, two thousand and twelve of remind me: what was that about. Well that see, killed twelve people at a movie theater in Aurora Colorado. Right, yes, listen! Yes, I think your are also instruct or if she really gets to the heart of Marcus. For the moment thing I think homes is clearly insane. I think he knew the difference, between right and wrong Ann at the risk of sounding a little conspiratorial there. Some indication that he may have had some pressure and helping some people that were. Pushing him in the direction of being violent.
And. I'm not really sure that we have the legal perspective to pursue that, to the extent that it needs to be looked at addressed. What's interesting. Is that- and this is by coincidence, sheer coincidence that January fourth, Joyce and stevenson- Taylor he's written a book called the spiral notebook and it includes the story of James Holmes. So we are more. Have these define investigative journalist so will get the story right, at least a lot more than I know I don't know anything the story, so listen. I don't wanna go off too far and attention, but my man, here's an investigator was built Turner. Who I worked with him. He was the lead investigator for Jim Garrison on the clay Shaw trial on the committee assassination and then defended Sir Hand and Arthur Bremer and
James Earl Ray, there's element of all those cases that have not come fully to light that, I think a broader perspective on in Sandy with bring to light. You know for sure hands. We use hypnosis concert hand had no memory of what happened. That day really still goes, and he convincingly doesn't have any memory and every time an expert psychiatrist was brought into hypnotize him rather than them. Remember what happened. He went into a deeper trance. In the extremely sophisticated form of hypnosis that probably involve narco hypnosis and so the whole issue of the ability to manipulate people or create manchurian candidates are to exploit insanity
I think we're barely scratching the surface on understanding that whole topic. Well, I mean can argue with that, because that those are extraordinary, aces. But when you are, I get I don't again. I don't want to go often too much attention, because no, I don't either other and I'm certainly not implying yeah. I'm not you lying. That was the case with him, but he certainly initiated the conversation. Absolute Well, certainly- and the thing is, I agree with you that the conversation has to be ongoing because we're seeing e, there's, always forces at play. You already see this psychiatric industry will say or the industry itself is pushing to include more people to have disorders. So it's
creeping sort of mental illness and then that, of course, then you use those many many attorneys successfully use for mitigating circumstances to say: well, this is horrible back around that my client had, but Canada is taken to another level because we never. We do not add here to the right and wrong version graph in standard there is why I've done. The dentist did a story where Doctor Turcotte received six months in a institution, after killing his two children now he's just been convicted, get after the outrage of a certain segment of the population and his wife being a doctor herself. He was convicted
second reading murder with exactly the same evidence but six months insanity and the premise was that he was depressed. So you can see that this is what I don't think Americans know of that case unless they listen to this program. But I do right there is that fear, Americans that the that somebody would be put into a mental into an institution and then released someday. Where is it Canada we have that as a so. It's not the exception to the rule. It is the rule they will be released and, as we see the Grey House, cannibal killer in six years released on the streets in Canada, so I think that the as you say, how, how can you? How can you discern who is mentally
Still, if you just say well, right and wrong is just not enough. Well, listen! I think here's here's my perspective on it. You really some really good points today, I appreciate the dialogue on this issue because it's getting to the heart of the manic, the this, in my lifetime, there's been a huge increase in what I would call the called spree killings where people did. Randomly start, shooting people I mean it happens all the time. You know uh in the last few years, we've attribute that some of it to terrorism and political acts of violence, but there's still a long list of people that just wake up one day and decided to start killing. People understand now, let's pick. The the issue of insanity office paper minute take the issue of how to proceed with the court case off we still need to understand why that's happening and we need
I understand why that's happening nowadays. We need this understand why it's happening particularly in America, where in many many countries that it's a non existent issue and we need to understand whether the forces that come to play. That would that kind of response. I mean if it was an isolated incident. Ok, understanding that maybe we'll never know, but for it to be so painfully common. I think really raises the bar in terms of the importance of the issue that certain Greece, you know. As an author, I don't like to hammer the message on peoples heads, but that's certainly one of the concerns I had in writing the book and it certainly my hope that those issues will be looked at more astutely. Then they happen well. I certainly agree with you that the new move towards these
I don't know it's not one off, but the incredible amount of fambly these killers want to gain entirely. They don't want to wait. They don't want to do twenty years and then come forward and say I killed fifty people, but I have to make a big flash so they're killing people in big numbers into increasingly. Numbers and so in and shock value. So it is. I think it is a confluence of things going on there and again you're right there is. It may not be that you ban video games but to say that violent video game I have no influence on. Anyone is absurd everybody's idea of fame and even if the person is a will say- who's the loser, but they may believe there were loser well. This is the way to get beyond that, because any kind of fame is fame these days, so there's another bunch of phenomenons, almost going on at same time to.
Not really well explained, but to somewhat explain this new phenomenon of why people would resorted to this in these big numbers. It look and you have the seizable all that interesting say enough. In this particular case. You know you have the seeds of the question of insanity and what does it look like? You have the discussion of what causes insanity. You have a discussion of what kind of insanity legitimately mitigates a sentence, and I think more importantly- and this is something that I think is rarely discussed. You have the whole issue of the birth of benighted called this celebrity criminal and you have the birth of the papparazi, covering the celebrity criminal more from a entertain perspective than a real effort to uh
understand jurisprudence, and I think those are seems that started back then that have gone unchecked so there not serving our culture. Well put it like this and a more deliberated in conscious discuss. Of those issues, I think, is important. Also, you know you also have the issue without talking heads are the self styled experts you know have a situation where there's a lot what this shows were guilt and innocence is declared before the trial even starts. Personally, I find that to be inappropriate, and I say through the then please thickness of the new cycle, the need for celebrities in the whole issue of proper oxy, I mean we can look the the trend towards
that led to the whole failure of the media to predict the outcome of the last presidential election, I mean the whole issue goes way behind beyond criminal justice law and order and Saturday it's. I think it's a a tendency that That was our perception of reality, in some words You also have the issue of the media treatment. We haven't mentioned too much, but this poor, Mister Parker and his wife family, I mean he not only with respect, but also the treatment in the media, just a treatment period. It the media could care less. There was no sympathy for really for the part time
no not at all, and I'm not sure that that's improved all that much since then, but I think more significantly, for me anyway, was the fact that Myers hired EDGAR Rice Burroughs, phrase of Tarzan to function as a rip. Order during the trial and burros slow and the guy I mean there was nothing journalistic at all about his approach to the trial. It's not to say it wasn't a good writer that great story, but he was hired to do a has a job and that's what he did. You know and I'm not being alone again, I'm not defending heck pigment by any stretch of the imagination, but I think there's a certain amount of fairness in the treatment of suspects that we should expect.
If nothing else, to keep from thinking the jury pool, I mean, my goodness, you know, if he's convicted before you select Jerry Jury, the chances have a fair trial Sade rather quickly over. We haven't mentioned this, but I Imagine people might guess, but we might as well state, because this is poor, and part of the trial as well. This insanity did fancy had a vigorous defense. He had two good attorneys. They did good closing. Agreements, Asia Keys, as you right, though got famous, mister, but that isn't the end of his story and he was a friend of Parker as well. It sorry you say just forty five minutes. What was the verdict was guilty and he pleaded guilty verdict was to execute him. He died by hanging.
The the thing that there's not real strong evidence of, but it really. It appears that Myers may have made inappropriate financial contributions to keys during the trial. It's also clear that keys did a lot to come. Major crimes in Hollywood and then he was actually convicted for taking bribes in one of the first ponzi schemes in California. And the irony is, is that he served time it's and Clinton, which is the place where Pikmin was execute yeah. That's some of the amazing fourteen year sentence too. So, yes, and and
he came out. He was given a job in Hollywood. Is a script consultant on movies that involved English is, which is a really a nonexistent job that was further payoff for whatever he contributed to the media. Chris function of that whole trial. But I I want to say too, maybe so we're turning We've been saying that really struck Maine is that Hickman's psychiatrist the one that the defense attorneys hired, really sabotaged, case I mean totally remember when Clinton was asked about his affair with Monica Lewinsky and he answered by saying one
Well, it depends on the meaning of what is his remember that yeah sure get well the same thing in the Hickman Travel Doc. Are you sure, I'm your diagnosis and the doctor said I can't would be sure of anything. It's like what- no. It was like. I don't want to accused everything that has to should go in there and was very suspicious on press and unprecedented and gave the jury will all be opening. They need to to to convict him without qualification. Was there any supporter years of the idea that he was insane and at that time was there many supporters that he should not be put to death. You know I sent that that issue broke down around.
Question of the morality of the death penalty and not the question of his guilt or innocence. Uh, he certainly it's certainly hard to, except for an rather certainly hard to Jenna. Any of sympathy, your support for what he did specially behave just listen to the crime itself. He didn't help himself by talking too much. And you appeal to My justification, I'm sure offended a lot of people for religious reason, so. If the intention of the lawyers was to use it as a test case for ending the death penalty, it wasn't the best choice on that night. Now now you say that this took quite a bit of your life, this
How long were you involved with this case at all would be to use the your turn. Seventy I wrote my first book when I was nineteen I've self published about a dozen works, and you know fifty years after writing. My first book I got picked up by a major publisher, so in the literary world they call that an overnight success You know I spent a couple of years working on the book once I get started, I recruited my brother going to help with the research we had to it kind of petition a lot of files from Sacramento where they were in archives and he will tend to sort through it, and I have to say my this is a really good job. I think mine is, draft. I may have
much emphasis on the Hollywood and the history of Hollywood, which is not really, germane to the story, as I initially thought. So you know there's some certain out and rethinking, but you know the same: it's exciting for me, is I've got another book already finish. This is kind of a follow up. Remember. Did you see the movie gangster squad? Yes, my father was a member of and while he made a deathbed confession, which I believe is the truth. I think the Hollywood movie was kind of a cartoon and I feel a commitment to him who she like to keep There are really good man, he had good intentions and we got some caught up into some stuff that was kind of epic units, tragic consequences, but, you know. I think there are historical moments that we can learn from my
This was one of them. I think his story is another example of that. I'm looking forward to kind of moving forward in in a similar line. Do you have a tentative title for that? Yes, it's called the almost a perfect murder. The reason please send to room well, who was with you so and so attorney was murdered. The in front of his house, which is solve murder, in LOS Angeles, based on things, my father told me, I'm able to solve the murder absolute and, while I'll go ahead, sorry doctors say, and the German had huge implications for the whole issue of dealing with corruption. We long for.
Dealing with organized crime. You at the time they set up the task force, the media consensus and the FBI consensus was that organized crime did not exist on a national level. And my father who was involved in wiretapping member This is the mob certainly knew. But it was a real phenomena. There was really bad things going on. There was real corruption within the police department. There was real violence that was going unchecked. As a result of the corruption, and there was an effort to kind of deal with those things in a noble way, but got sidetracked the same, and you know to me that's very compelling stories. What was interesting, I guess in despotically to is the
This was six days before Christmas that this murder happened somewhere target hello, yeah. We were talking about the night. There are loads flows as the day yeah, but you have a about five days ago: yeah, ok, so it's uh, I called Young called that. Synchronicity is significant coincidence that certain yeah and believe me. I'm really really grateful for the opportunity to talk. Let me said, but there's some there's some nibbles at making a movie. So I'm kind of hopeful about that too. That would be wonderful for that. Yes it's on my butt at least I'm actually surprised to extent, story is struck. A nerve with a lot of people are getting a lot of positive feedback. I thought it would be kind of image
spoke with a few people would be interested in them. 'cause, that's what they rented, but I have to say at this point. Interest is well beyond that. It's market, the people, that kind of get the social overtones that I was trying to raise telling the story. You have a very interesting killer, though, to be really is ahead of his time in combining a lot of the things, the narcissism that we see that we think is very modern. We really see there the idea of the movies and and not the idea that you use the excuse of the movies he actually he was an armed robber just so he could go the movies every day for three dollars and twenty five cents like this day exactly- and I think I think that the Anything that encourages critical self evaluation, both individually
he's looking at their own lives and also how We relate to each other and how process, problems is if you need to be, I mean anything that the supports. That is a worthy endeavor, and that was certainly, if I may say so. My intention was to stimulate some dialogue on those issues. Does I think. If they remain unconscious, that we run the risk of not having the higher aspirations of our culture went out in the end. If that makes sense, so certainly at this book is important, like I say, because it just seems to be in harbinger of things to come all wrapped up in this one case and as you say, as you. As you, as you say, with Mister Holmes coming up, and then this case, and that happened in two thousand twelve- that still in the public eye
is an indication that these issues that were there in nineteen twenty seven are still today. Evidente in twenty seventeen I have the issue of uh good luck to show that shot, The Ronald Reagan wanting to impress Jodie foster farms at the game. It's at down. Women are remember now, but it's not I've seen that hasn't reoccurred, since it was Yeah people identifying with. Movie figures as a justification for crimes: that's I've seen that more than once in my career I think it yeah it's it's. It's completely disturbing trend. What we have I mean, not the serial, kill
It wasn't a bad enough trend. This new trend is even more disturbing in that how many people you can't see it coming it's in I will see it coming and we are talking about the issues of I mean. I think you personally could be a cycle NB insane as well and be paranoid schizophrenic as well, and I think that's what we're getting we're getting. A combination of thing, things that we haven't seen before and Anderson Society, we could come to the conclusion that, despite those mental illnesses, we want to punish peoples of symbol. We can we can make that judgment, but I think it needs to be an informed judgment and not an unconscious desmond, and How does judgment that uses any political, social or economic reason for not fully examining the forces in there a plug? Absolutely. I agree with you
I want to thank you very much David for coming on and talking about not just evil, and we look forward to having you on in the near future with almost the perfect murder, might want to contact. You do have do do facebook, you have a facebook page website. You know I do. I have a facebook page this under Dave Wilson. Air bewilson on Facebook. You can friend me there. We can talk about these issues Fort links. I'd really enjoy do that. In fact, I've started kind of a blog on that Facebook page where I trace the history of The justice system and american some of the issue, to the wall like races, in sexism and homophobia mean there's a whole history and art of how we've approached those, issues legally, and I think it's worthy of study and examinations. It's really informative than some of the read.
For some of the laws that we still grapple boots are less than noble, so I think that's worth examining as well absolutely well. Thank you very much David. You have a great evening and a great holiday season hope you talk I really really want to say it was a great interview. You ask the right questions, the good questions. It was a great dialogue and blessed by the invitation. Thank you. It was my pleasure. Thank you very much everything. Thank you. You too. For those that rumor fans I want to thank, you were wrapping up the year of two thousand and six teen, and I just wanted to give you my heartfelt thank you to all the people that listen to these programs to uh Listen to these programs and been supporter contacting me with compliments and messages
support. I really really do appreciate it and Stay tuned for more true murder in the new year January is going to knock your socks off. We have even singular. The spiral notebook James Holmes, as we mentioned, Catherine Casey with her book, possessed Harold Schechter Incredible, don't miss this depraved about Hh Holmes and then the politics of murder, with Margo NASH and it's January, and just next year, a block Mister Year of more fantastic authors talking about their incredible books- and I also wanted to mention thanks to the incredible true murder fat runs over forty two million downloads so far of the program and we're well over four million listeners per month. So I want to thank you very much. Have yourself a great holiday days, I'll see you back in January Goodnight
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.