Covering the case of one of the most prolific serial killers for 8 years gave Stevie Cameron unmatched access to the entire shocking story as it unfolded. In ON THE FARM, you will read of Pickton's early years and wonder if anything he experienced could ever explain what he later committed. You will learn of the suspicions from some of Pickton's long time friends. You will hear from two women who narrowly escaped being Pickton's victims. Pickton was originally charged with 26 murders in the biggest, longest and most expensive investigation ever conducted in Canada. ON THE FARM delivers a fascinating and horrific account of the life of a serial killer, the women he murdered, the many people that worked to solve the case and the families of victims looking for justice. ON THE FARM-ROBERT WILLIAM PICKTON AND THE TRAGIC STORY OF VANCOUVER'S MISSING WOMEN-Stevie Cameron
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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oh. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killer, who crime history through murder, with your host journalists and other than asking. Good evening, this is your whole stance. It asks for the programme to murder the more shocking, listen to crime history and the there's a written about them by the beaten by the mid nineties when it became
and disappearing is your cell phone bill out of control than this? Is your wake up? Call the new tracks on wireless gives you unlimited talkin tech, starting at twenty dollars. A month, no contract plus unlimited carry over data with active service up the new track phone wireless. Now your in control see terms and conditions attract owned outcome from Vancouver. Eastside, ST prostitutes, drug users, the most a bone, desperate of women vanishing from the street. Not until the year two thousand the police be in closing in on Robert Willie Picton, who soon would take the world's interest as one of the most lithic, shocking and bizarre serial killers of all time, tv Camera award, winning investigative, journalist and bestselling author decided to write about and report about this case, and the result was two books: the Picton files and now the definitive. Never before heard
incredibly shocking story of Robert Willie picked and his murder victims, the lucky ones to escape death. The investigators that work the case, the entire fascinating story on the farm Robert, William, William Picton, in the tragic story of Vancouver's missing women. With my special guest journalist and author Stevie Cameron welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Stevie Cameron. Thank you, Dan and really happy to be with you Well, thank you very much. It's going to be a great great thrill. For me, it would be great program for our audience, the very much programmable, absolutely not your investigative journalist and very success Walter having written about candidates, Prime Minister Brown, Maroni and his years in politics. I call on the take and the last Amigo about about Carl Heine Describers Schreiber, the job when canadian arms dealer and part of the Airbus scandal, and he found it critically- acclaimed
national magazine, ELM street. Exactly was it above this case and this story that you want to write to books, the picture files and now on the farm. What what compelled you too right and want to write about this particular case? Well, it is actually wasn't my idea, you're quite right when you say that I was a political journalists tender. I awoke and white collar crime person in our own interest to encrypt poet and how they steal and how they hide it. They do it and where they get it, why they never get charged. Why they never get the wine ever written right. All I've done a lot of those that, on five looks like that in their then a sudden my agent called me and said: how would you like to write a book on Picton case, and I said I, you can't be serious and she said yeah come out
aren't you a pop up here? Candidates as it is in the United States. Publishing company owned by Random House, and so it was wonderful, wonderful company and she said they would like you to do a book on the in case, and I said I'll do it. She said no, no, no, that's not what you are I'm just offering and make. I have a responsibility to tell you what they want you to do. But this is the kind of thing you do and I think it might be. Uh steak. I said no no limit like listening, I'm going to do it. Why? Because it's so interesting because I said I I feel: I just can't believe my luck and she she said finally acquiesced, and why did I do it? Because I'm interested in criminals- and I got off you- tired of working
one can never went to jail the year, I also lived in Vancouver for many years and I'm a graduate of University British Columbia in Vancouver. So I know the city well a lot of family there and another reason is that. Many years ago and my church in Toronto, I was in, open, starting a program to help the homeless in a church, firmly Lana, shelter there and set them then found closely M M thought and I ran that showed her seventeen years and I now couple of boy had help destitute people in their one boy did so the two hundred and fifty agencies in the city. So I have a long history of experience with homelessness addiction and the issues around that so when I know I knew that the victim with prostitutes are, you knew they were destitute.
You they lived in terrible, pacing up and down honey, sudden Vancouver than there are in fact the commission the story on the missing women, a banker for my magazine, ELM Street. To me it was a perfect. Did you? What did you initially anticipate? You would learn in this case, especially considering I don't want to jump ahead, but just considering what you eventually learned about the entire thing was there some did you initially anticipated? You will learn from this, especially given great information you did learn was it. Maybe I own I already in the beginning- maybe something that hopefully let me tell you write any I don't know how long it was going to take, and you know I just I'm trade into it. Actually, what we said to myself, I didn't jump right into it. I spent four months four five months reading everything I could my hands on my fault, I'm not going out there till. I know what this is about until
assembled a list of people to talk to and yeah. I brought a consultant in right away and called on the K. Who would you occurred MT here, Mp Inspectorate in Canada, and he was first Canadian to go to Quantico the appeal headquarters where they teach people the about serial killers, and I therefore they train the profiling right. There the one with the Canadian to go. They took one more of a friend of mine. The following year and then they both programme to finally, could I think for financial reasons, but he would very helpful in suggesting people to talk to and so finally went felt. You know I had a long list of names and I understood the story pretty well and they had arrested picked in. They arrested him in February two thousand and two, and I finally went to Vancouver in August. It took me that long to really rub my head around the story and do the research
then to Vancouver in August and by that time I had lined up a lot of people to talk to and that time till now I've lived there if every year, sometimes as much as two slash three of the year, sometimes just half a year, and because this thing has taken eight years right right now, you're incredible book starts with someone named Bill Wilson and who was he and what did he discover and what was especially unusual about what he did discover and showed police well bill. Wilson testified but the preliminary hearing about how we got a story of the pesticide again at the year, are, you didn't, have to tighten the trial. He was the son of a butler, he sold bird houses and poorly gigs, and so on. We call him the Hooligans man he saw. These are never outside Europe, a town called mission
and that town is probably about twenty miles from the pic confirms, which is again about twenty, twenty five miles e of Vancouver. So if you think of one it's a long line. Everyone knows that concern for Coquitlam and then there's a place called mission and there's a river there. That goes into with a big slew, and he found the skull of a woman in the flu and he reported it to the police. Rather reluctantly 'cause. He had a criminal record himself and he was bit nervous about that, but they overlook that. They they took the skull into Vancouver and they tried to find out who skull of a woman- and I was really only half a score. It had been found in half vertically. And that's: how did they get a drawing reconstructed the face? They did it? You know they publish their trees on posters and nobody would
Mr Schulz part made of indian and per flight but nobody knew who she was until she was Jane DOE. They put her skull in a hit in a box and put it in a locker, and it stayed there for years and years and the reason that Bill Wilson's discovery was so important. Was it when they did go on the Picton Fawn and they started finding body parts. They found the sum of, let them up his jingo on the farm and they also found skulls. It would come in the identical way to dispose of them. He cut Scots have, and he had trauma skull into the emission, flew and does it, Nobody knows who she was the one woman they were not able to identify. While they are very fascinated. The first police officer, it really didn't. I didn't
ring bells- are set off bells in our alarms in his mind, just from the mechanically cut a skull. He said very kind of unusual I would think, but but you say, the police didn't really, make much of this. They didn't but I really think a homicide and interesting, they were. There were two people who worked on Jane DOE, Skull back in nineteen twenty five when they found it now, and one was a woman called Tracy Rogers to in the in the reconstruction of the face, so that they could put a poster out. And she was a forensic anthropologists, very good who was looking quite often at the impeding mounted him British Columbia and the other person was then I can be after call him play, and both of them knew that this was a homicide back and ninety ninety five, but
They could not find anyone who usually she was. It could not reconstruct the face well enough, so that people would identifier, but both of those people, tin, sleigh and Tracy Lodges looked on the picked in case many years later they were brought back. You know it was just because it was uh job not because of this cults, and finally, Tracy Rogers was able to match the skull and bones to this one woman and can say we're done. This is well for service both of these people. Now. You can, maybe you can tell us the location where a woolly patents families have property was, was called the farm and talk about it. Technically. I guess you could call a far, but maybe you can tell us what the really the date of this was, because it wasn't so much a farm. You say, and who owned the property originally and what business was conducted there and who resided there. Ok, the victims
we're an old family in a small town, caput equipment, which is to say about twenty five miles, e of Vancouver and it's a working class community which has had a lot of arms and fishing, and so I am on the Fraser River near the mouth. Her efforts, Frazier had entered the Pacific Ocean Vancouver, and this family were always hard working, quite poor, and they had the first time was right on the top of a hill right beside me, sane asylum, a place for the criminally insane were captain some of these people hooked on the pick and fun uh. Eventually, they saw their place and moved down the hill onto about to a farm nearby in the silicone, a booklet them, and I really had a brother and sister and the parents. What can they heard this kid? When
school schools, pig manure? They were a slop, the pigs three times a day I am also allowed in and out of the house and then Children were shunned by all the kids in the school because of their smell in their poverty and the fact that they didn't fit in and Willie was always considered a bit. Slow he's actually got normal intelligence, but he he sort of talks like Daffy duck and something's got an odd voice and, as he's ugly and just get very It was a terrible situation and these kids were shook her hand bag. He certainly was now up what was really taken in his life. Going up three year investigation, what was it really like? Well, it was very tough. He kept they had a hard hard like really thickens letting people love to talk, but he always called things die,
and one of the story to tell him about how he was given baby calf too late. With the pack. And one day he came home from school and he couldn't find the calf and his mother told him fairly briskly that you know he should go to the barn, went to the barn and found his cap had been flooded with hanging from a hook in the barn, and he tells That story again and again and again it was obviously a terrible experience for him, but I said well, you know that's what happens, but he had that kind of thing happened to him many times and one of the worst things that happened was the. I'm his younger brother days, have you got a driving licence and hip a young neighborhood boy on the road outside the family farm. He ran home to tell his parents and his mother, I told him to take the car, mother and father told him to take the truck. It was actually a truck to the garage I can get him get repaired.
The internet scratches serious problems with it, because it here, and the mother went out to replace on the road where the boy was lying and roll, then who did flew of water beside the road where he ground TAT and so that they ve taken was as it did, with the assumption that Great Britain had just had about it, if I could have taken away from me, I was allowed to drive to lose twenty one nobody realized for long. Time said the mother had actually world the body into the You still alive when he was hit by the by the car in the corner said later. He would have lived despite the injuries from the truck hit him he would have. He would have lived. So I tell you that story down, because that is the kind of family right. It's interrupting and his brother and sister great successes of their lives in business, even though his brother had the Hells angels want to be, and
but he became very wealthy and they start selling off the farm property after their parents died, and they had a lot of money really taken as a serial killer. Who was also a millionaire incredible you talk about the held angels a little bit, not to really involvement in this at all. But just certainly that the terms of Rock Committee, they Hells angels, were down the street. They had some parties and then you talk about Piggy's palace and the good time society tell her audiences a bit about the hell they the parties and other rules and ship they had with the victims and Dickens idea of of kind of capitalizing on their property and the, as I mentioned good time, society that they set up a big. His palace noted this probably in the early nineties, defect in the younger brother, there sure business when he had a business.
Hauling soil and he also the demolition or building and He had all kinds of random fire and he kept all his trucks and so on it on the farm property Willie in the meantime, I'm thinking of living, doing our jobs, but basically running a pig slaughtering business. He he had paid them and so on, but they had lots of because it is selling off bits and pieces of reform for development, and, what's very strange about this picture a narrow strip of farmers, not even farmland. Is it's like a junkyard frankly now for teenagers left surrounded by track carbon, that's basically an across the street from their place for two, things, one with the Hells Angels clubhouse and the other one was a massive small development which, and they face directly to honor home depot.
Why, though, is very weird and down the end of their lives? They bought more land and that's where they built piggies palace. They ve demolition. He took out bar a bar in a hotel and he moved it to today and they had parties there. They brought in them, they had freed and it was rated several times by the police, but a lot of local politicians loves going there, so they were sort of protected, Willie love going there and they made a lot of money, but it was basically a place for the health like us and so were Davis. As far as I know, patch, member of the Hells Angels angel he's his help. Angels hang around not quite what level he's reached. So if the Hells Angels clubhouse was directly across the street from the pistons home of this farmhouse and the remains of the farmland so was a p,
I would go to piggy's palace and answer misunderstands and then it all go back to the Hells Angels clubhouse and stay up all night and get drunk. And no it was said We have seen in the city had a terrible time trying to close them down when it comes down to his palace. He held into voting so that companies that are there. After what has happened with two hundred m area. Now. Did you did Willie Picton was the sole person that resided at the properties, Even though that David picked in his brother and his sister Linda right we're actually at the corners of his property as well. What was it really primarily state on the property? Well, is better. Is there for a long time and they two brothers lived together for a long time after their parents died and they've
girlfriend? Who came- and you know you had a series of girlfriends who came, and you know the first one he had two children by. Are they all live together in this house but Willie and they fought all the time and finally, they get them out in advance play. They bought a trailer. First of all, it was a little motor home and then they bought a trailer, and so will he lived in the motorhome at the back of the property for awhile ago, and then he thought it. Let me put it on a pad and he lived at the back of the property and he was where he was at the back of this triple the back of a tangle of straw. He had an garage workshop and there he still had the motor sitting there. He had another bomb and here here, but surely the slaughterhouses pigs and there was a bit of a piggy there,
credible mass. Always your old currency also traded in old, and he would corrections, so he could fix anything. So he would basically living on the same property. Is that it is better that he was at the back and by then, just before the year two before his arrest, they moved out bottle. He thought come down here about a mile away and the illegal really with alone there. Now you speak about Willie relationship, you talk is either got. It was kind of weird considered creepy. He had some money very dirty. His hygiene was has a lot to left it to desire. What was really sex life. What did it consists of feed didn t really didn't much brutally had to have many relationship, so what it is excellent Is that what was really like? Well, I talked to
people who knew him well and he he was. He had great desires, but nobody wanted to go out with me and he he patronized sex shop in there. Her quit long way back and deal what every politely called exploits a dildo him, but the bottom not really awful things. No hurry, hurry, handcuff and restrained. He bought strap all the tools of serial killers, You know we now have this incredible story going on in Canada. Right now, the man was convicted today, a colonel in our military, who is it your killer and killed two women. I not come here and again you told us that that come into that story as well, I really would like- and he was I think he studied motor women from nineteen
only five on, because he certainly murder, Jane DOE and hurt. All the town and ninety five in it with your skull. I tell you what he did, because I had so much money and because nobody else, woman in the right mind would go out with him. He would drive to the downtown he Vancouver, witches famous around the world for them, sawdust paused, most debt that women for particles in Canada. And they would be wandering the streets and looking for business and he'd pick them up bars around the streets and take them back out to the farm, and sometimes he would turn them, but he often killed him and he would he would have sex with them. They will now there in the first place, because he would offer them more money than any any man on the street that stop the car lot by and he would, I think, one hundred dollars for six and good would be getting ten to twenty back. Of course,
he would offer them all the free they forgot it, so they would go out to his place and nobody knows quite why he brought some of them back and why he murdered some of them. Who knows what those and some women were able to talk your way out of it. And one woman for him nearly killed him and ass? She did so by now. You talk about how he was able to get women come out to this remote place with him, even though he was creepy, so he offered drugs and and probably picked on people that had drug problems, but he also had some assistance he had a couple of was. I found this incredible other drug. Women Gina Houston. You have a Athena. Taylor What were their role in actually helping Willie Picton find women. I thought those fascinating. What they did was Gina Houston, actually lived in Port Coquitlam and she'd be friended him, he
He paid her close to one hundred thousand dollars over a few years. Basically, to you know, for her drugs and for her groceries, Humes had a kind of non sexual relationship with a girlfriend that he never harmed and one. Furthermore, the woman Khalifa well yelled through my and go closely. She was one of my best forces could escape, and she was one of the women that he was very fond of issues a neighbour and but Other too. She never brought him alone under the founder him to kill that the other two did Dinah Taylor, whose The woman who replaced Lizzie out with junior used and the woman who replaced Jenna Houston will dare Taylor and both of these women with go to the shelters and the drop pins that the prostitutes in attics don't tell me said we could use, for example, First United Churchill, wonderful community.
The centre in church in the downtown honey said, had a drop in for addicted prostitutes and vanity. Where and Jimmy Houston would go there and try to talk women into coming out to the farm with them, because the Feynman said drugs and Willis, great guy and and quite often these women were so desperate, they'd go and. They and they didn't come back now. We never heard any evidence that Dinah Tale, agenda hidden, helped him kill these women, but they certainly lowered them out to the fire with promises as I said to you already of drugs and money and once in a while, he determined, but then he killed so many and in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven, two years after that mission, skull was found
thirteen women in the downtown Eastside went missing and we are convinced that he wasn't charged all thirteen that year, but we know he killed those thirteen. Well now did you talk about Diana Taylor and enjoying the Houston. Whether was evidence or not. Do you believe that day? You said they didn't actually assist him per se, but do you believe that they knew these women's fate? What there was there any evidence, or at least could you assume that they actually knew that something had happened to these women that they didn't. Where they forget that information then attended to testify doing during the trial very briefly- and she had testify right in the preliminary hearing that I attended in two thousand and three, and she suggested that really
I had told her, one of the women had died and he tried to save her, and this is all in a phone call she had with him. It was very unclear to me hello, wife, in the death of anybody and there nobody has been able to prove that she had helped, kill anyone and she was never charged. She died recently of cancer, the other woman Diana Tailor made of and who, in fact, where at home, in Ontario here in the Province of Ontario, and she did come out. She was brought back out to court once, but not during that and again no charges were laid against other woman by the police. They were left alone. Are those I don't think the police ever had enough to I've been with anything even assisting him right now
what was the mood like you say in ninety five women start disappearing at what time and through what process you talk about Vancouver Sun articles that seem to awaken people to how bad or is it. People in the Vancouver area didn't realize how many women were missing or how big or the magnitude of the problem. Actually. So just what the mood was in the 90s in the mid 90s after these women went missing and then at what point did did it seem to people became aware of? Maybe a serial killer was working, but certainly women were disappearing from the face of the earth, and a lot of women so went went. Give a certain description that time in Vancouver the problem lies in Vancouver the police ignored these women event. The please ignore economy, their families would say my
daughter disappeared, my my sisters disappeared and I'm talking basically about the mid 90s up until about one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight and they and nothing would happen the man in charge of the missing persons department at the Vancouver police and we're talking about a huge city, a very big, sophisticated, wealthy city with in this area, the poverty and addiction, so that the bank of the police have very little interest in these women. The man in charge of missing persons turned out you're greater to Heaven,
but most of the time when it's computed calling for Kitty porn, he was convicted. We only had one person really in the missing persons unit. There was this criminal police officer. They had one slash. Two time is distant. They had one expert on serial killers Kim raffle who's now teaching it in Texas. He is a brilliant, brilliant profiler and with a doctorate in criminology, is taught the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco and firearms. He sought schottland yard he's he's worked with police forces all over the world on serial killers. And then to the police,
but in their own department, and they didn't like him. Police officers tend not to like pro farmers. You may know that you probably know that they think that there's, just all you know witchcraft and it's not it's not real police work but Kim Roster move it something with a mess there must be a serial killer and people knew, but it wasn't really until one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven, that affecting women disappeared. That really, It is becoming very alarming. Ninety ninety eight it was when I asked I wanted her to do so, for my life is in which we published in nineteen ninety nine and about ninety nine.
Now in the bank of his son, started her campaign and they they started doing stories. Couple of reporters there and one in particular column, be kind started to really go after this story. Talking to the families. Please still didn't do anything and finally, sometime between one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, I can't quite remember the Dayton and two thousand. The case looks turned over to the RCMP, the mounties which handled put preparing for police force there and british glue yeah, and they started in the file review and they they put together a list. The missing women's list from Vancouver is sixty five names. The official in the other two did nothing about it quietly vanished by the time I got there in two thousand and two these officers were not available. They disappeared that you know they had a this number
Vancouver police disgrace and you can t take another case. Are you also talk about you? It alluded to the Bsu you in and the section of other FBI that does profiling pine here, the criminal profiling that we now know and then there was someone named Royal Hazelwood, which is people who read true crime will recognize this name along with the pioneers Robert Ressler and John Douglas. So you talk about a re hazel when one was re, Roy Hazel were brought in and again how the Vancouver police react to his attempt at profiling, We already know that the was was dismissed basically and and they didn't like him, and they didn't like him, claiming that it was a serial killer and didn't believe in his form of gene graphical geographical profiling. So
what did they say when a legend like Roy Hazelwood, who had worked with all kinds of major cases, and I think even the Gary Ridgway Cave tell us about the Gary Ridgway Connection and Roy Hazelwood and reaction to what he had said and what he had told police police. It was interesting DM one about women work? Mathematically took over the case and set up a task force, and they set it up with the bank to the police, try to bring peace and and harmony, and they brought in some of the Vancouver police officers to work with them. But it was definitely amounted case. And they were getting getting, to an interview pyramid, what happened was that they were able to address them in February two thousand and two. They were able to get an until. Then they had been unable to get a search warrant. Goin fun. He was a prime sets back then
one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine on he was the prime suspect. It took them till two thousand and two to get on his farm to get a search, one to get on the farm and when made they got on because he had illegal weapons, not because they were able to get on on a search warrant on missing women. They got on on a search warrant, a permissive illegal guns and when they got on the ground, they found the belonging that many dismissing emanate. Therewith knew he was the right guy, but TAT day they couldn't get on the path for they had very very little time in which to get ready to interview. Him For you know the formal interrogation right and they were scrambling around trying to figure out what to do and they decide to bring in the only advice of one of the police officers, who was a profiler. They decided to bring in Roy Hazelwood and they, the Convis officers, who were really in charge of the case at the time, had very little faith in this.
But no, there was some shaman. Could it happen to come off? No one had been dismissed from a bank or the police. They thought they did, they give it a try, you bought were held up, but they chosen a young star in the icmp to to interview to interrogate picked in. They called the interview and he had no interest in dealing with a properly said. They may have thing of value to teach me he felt he was a trained. The train, the questioning aspects here and he was part of the on I'm forgetting the word now for it but polygraph unit. So he administered polygraph lie detector tests. So he was a trained interviewer and he wasn't interested in having were able to see. There was a mountain there on the team of woman who, how do I really really really pushed for him to come, because, obviously,
to someone like being a lilies, this man would serve. You know just the leader in the field, so right neither would came up. They basically did not use him and they sent him home and one of the things that happened was he told them not to rely on patents, conscience, they sit, don't he said to them, don't turn doc. I think he has a conscience not appeal to his conscience to his senses of conscience or anything like that. That's not going to work in a basically you appeal to his ego and our great god. He is so sure. Almost the first question that the canadian officer ass after I had a one one went home without being properly used, and he was under a day and a half or two days
welcome to the airport and send him on his way over the police officers saying to pick him in the interrogation 'cause we watched it. You know we watched the videos of it sure you know Willie your mother up in Heaven do the right thing for you know, will you pick them just looked at him as if he quota. Yeah. I was absolutely right on the money to meeting so they don't, they don't take his input and So then, there's a lawsuit as well, which I thought was interesting- that the king, rising over there was quite a bit of embarrassment for the police force has he had already launched the lawsuit for his dismissal or his treatment by the police, so that didn't help
the the look or the reputation of the Vancouver Police Department in all this at all. Now who is Scott Chubb, and we talked about how the police got onto victims, property through illegal weapons, artists and that's how they had him arrested. But who is Scott Chubb what he did? He initially say the police, and why and why did he eventually tell police Scott Chubbs very important person in the story? Tell us about Scott Child place. Well, scratch has a real character and I went to I went to interview him. I found him in a small in the Interior British Columbia and that had a long talk with him scotch up with one of the pact and truck drivers and in good working the demolition business with him and helped to build the piggy's palace, the you know the place that they all partied
down the road from the farm and he was quite a character. He had a criminal record and he got into this case by because he was- book. He needed money and there small family, baby and a wife, and he went to the police as a on drugs, and they said they weren't interested in his drug information because they already knew all about the people with marijuana grow up simple, so he said well, he was desperate for money and he said well, what's it worth to. If I tell you about some illegal weapons, so they well that's interesting. So when they found out it with the Picton Farm and they've been waiting for months to have an excuse to get on that farm, they they work very closely with Scott Chubb
and he said there were, these guns on the family told him where they were and they said they would pay him some money if his cell, if his tip proved to be true, but basically they were after picked him for the women, and so it did give them a chance to a search warrant. They got a search warrant, they went on the farm one night and All carefully planned, half an hour left each one, by the time they were able to get on the property and they did find guns sketch. I've had told the truth about the guns and several of the women with the pick and killed his shot in the back of the head before they were dismembered. Those countries are important and then they took over the phone because they found.
The identification and belongings lots of belongings and I be kites and all sorts of identification of these women on the properties. So Scott Chad became a very important witness for them and he told them that Willie picked. Him had told him that he was killing women and he told the police. How will he pick him? Kill the women, you know that really picked in and told him how he came. So all of this makes got chop an absolutely key witness and he remained acuteness over the next few years. As this process dry gone now, you talked about Then he told God how we did kill the way. Then I'll get you to tell us how he did that if you could Scotts have said that one day that he and really
Pulling nails out of a board, you know really. Was the brothers were involved in many addicts? Business of you know, tearing down properties in telling me forever with you for demolition and he's gone demolish buildings. So William Day and Scott Shepherd working one day, pulling nails out of some wood and Willie decided to entertain himself by telling Scott about how he killed women. Who is the bazaar, and he said he he what he would do with after they had sex. He look, some of the fine pay them and that it God willing never did drug will. He never even had a cup of coffee. He never smoked a cigarette. He had no use for drugs, but he always had drugs to give other people, and so he told the Scott Sub that once the woman had had sex and she had been able to get
with the drugs. He would then handcuff her behind her back behind your back put your hands on her back and usually she was so were high by that time she couldn't resist and then he would strangle her and take them. Take her out to his father. Had us behind his trailer hang her up on a hook. Winchell up and this member and he He heard testimony and evidence from the various witnesses in the trial that the bodies were remember it with a fossil and it would cut down through the would cut down through the middle of the skull down the front of the face and on the back of the head and then snap, the skull in half
which was identical to the way that Jane Build discovered, have been found in the mission. Flew in nineteen ninety five- that was exactly how that skull had been taken apart and that's why he was charged with Jane Danger, genders murder, eventually, especially after her feet and ankle bones were found on the firm. So he told Scott Chubb all about this and. Scott Schaab eventually told the police, but initially, as far as we know, initially, Scott Chubb contacted the police to try to give him information about some drug dealers and they said they weren't interested in the drug dealers. They knew about them, that's when he went talk to them about Willie and the guns, and then later he told them about the Willie and the the way that he,
Talk to him about killing these women, but there was listen a lot of doubt about that. I mean we wonder whether the police didn't know about Scott Chubb says what really had told Scott Chubb earlier than that, but we have no way of knowing that that I'm just telling you what emerged at the trial right now. The other part of this, too, is Scott. Chubb talked about about the plotted. Will he had said to him that he wanted to silence someone name, Lynn, Alexander, allowing sin, and and so then there was rumors that had reached police that she had told friends about her witnessing picked, picked and slaughtering a woman in that same slaughterhouse, slash, barn and but there so explain that tea. She there was rumors police went and questioned her. Then she denied anything like that and then scotch up talked about some. The
we pick and had mentioned to him that he might wipe Wanna have Lynn Hurt, so tell us about this whole fascinating aspect. This is another bizarre chapter in this crazy story. Well, not it's it's funny, then I I have a feeling that this story sounds very complicated and huge and nothing connects to everything else, but it all does connect, because absolutely and really the cast of characters is not so small yeah I mean it is fairly small. What happened was that Lynn Ellingsen with an addict who had was living out in in the port Coquitlam area, and she met the famous Gina Houston in a drug in a recovery house. You know she was. She was trying to clean up her act and kick drugs and that she had no place to go when she left this recovery house. I'm gonna hit them affairs. Well, so she said, I have a friend globally picking them. He he had room of his
Ok, so I'm sure you could go there till you find a place to live and No one can have no other place to go nice. I got stolen labelling from a bit. I saw her coat over the years and she said, Looking woman, intelligent vary in many ways quite appealing, but she had a terrible addiction. Does she simply couldn't care? Can she would do? waiting for drugs. She went out of the farm, it was one of the women really never hurt. You know is one of the thought of girlfriends. It hung around the place. Many many like that. And so she lived in his trailer at one end of it had big trailer and she had a better, not one, and he had a better than the other and that she lived there. She helped him with his. She kept the place clean.
Did some cooking and she took all the orders, soil and cars anything else. If anything, people wanted from really whether they wanted the butchered pig you know from his freezers or whether they wanted him to fix a car, whether they wanted soil from the soil business that they had in a spreading fresh sale on people's gardens. So she would, without the one day. They went really after should mind he wanted to come. Got a girl. She went with him because he promised for drugs They went into Vancouver's, downtown Eastside and picked up a woman and brought her back and then I can testified that she went to one end of the trailer with her drugs was crack cocaine and settle down with his crack pipe and really went to the other end of the trailer with the woman
and later on. She heard the scream she was completely down. She didn't know. You know whether that she was doing that she got the window? She knew that she could scream come from outside. She went looked at the window. And saw a light in the barn and which was the slaughterhouse, went out there and saw the woman. Did they picked up in the countryside hanging from And really was cut it out and Willie threatened to kill her. And he made her promise that she would never tell what she'd seen and she fled from the fund should go to the next. They should come and get it and later on. She talked to the police about it, but she was talking to the police in nineteen. Ninety nine about this, and it took till two thousand and two for the police to get on that firm and credible
I know you think and unreal so for me that it took so long, and I mean that's what I writing about what was happening during these years Friday. What was the problem? Why we may not getting out there and there was a police officer in Vancouver who had talked to her and believed her store. But they couldn't get, anybody else could take an interest to believe it, and they also couldn't get a search warrant to get on the property the original crown prosecutor, which is what they call him here. I don't I don't know what they quit it would be in the United States, but you know the district attorney. I guess is what you wouldn't give them a search warrant to get on, because he said you don't have enough evidence. You know since a serious thing, can't issue a fish when we don't have- and we only have the word of an addicted woman who was probably too high to know what she was talking about. I found that aspect of this, this incredible that she was
discredited because she did drugs, but it seemed to be if you not, that this is evidence itself. But if you were to why, in a kind of logic, to why anyone would testify to that why anyone would make up a story like that, and- and there were certain again when the scotch shop talked about certain things- at least it was backed up by evidence that the police found so at least cooperated story to a certain degree. Now we spoke initially, you said there was an incredible amount of forensic evidence in this case was up primarily about that to be able to convict this person. Maybe you can tell us about what they did find that that farm. When they finally did go on there and do the big investigative I mean it was in double the amount of people that were involved. And the amount of work that was undertaken at that farm to find evidence. What I would like to know
All is because we only had about nine minutes left his hours really gone by. Is that that how how many victims did we actually find their? Because people have heard the number twenty six and then is eventual trial of only six, so can maybe can tell us what happened in that twenty, six and six. How that all worked? They found. One police went on the farm on February, the fifth two thousand and two. They did find blood and the identity of of several women and they declared the whole for teenagers the crime scene and they basically took it over and they they dug up the entire time they demolished. They swabbed every surface on the property and they they dug up every square foot of a property down to undisturbed soil. They hired one hundred and four
students pointed out apology, students and run by Tracy Logic, the woman who had looked at that skull emission skull all those years before in nineteen. Ninety five and she is an expert at knowing the difference human bone and animal Bonecas. Don't forget, it was a farm they found aside from freezer bags of human flesh, ground human flesh that he kept in his freezing aside from skulls and and feet and hands that he kept in buckets in his freezer and just sitting around on his cell large. They found, after that they found the blood, And of dna to identify, I think, the about twenty seven women
initially and then I think they found the dna of about another six women, but when it came to prosecuting him on these cases, they police Crown eternity decided that it's actually get on with the job, the crowd Monica prosecutor me what you'd call the district attorney wanted to prosecute him on all these cases didn't carry on them and the preliminary hearing heard evidence on twenty seven cases, but the trial judge said this is too much for any jury and he decided to cut the counts down. So he said there would be another trial on the twenty. Now, why wasn't at twenty seven or because he he decided to dismiss the count,
The quashed account on Jane DOE. The one who's head was found in the mission's Lou and his, whose feet and and Shin bones were found on the farm. He said we don't know who she, and I dont know why he crushed the cap can crush that currently down to twenty six, then he said what do the twenty right? The other try accounted another trial. A jury could only take six and there is an upgrade over that, but he he was the boss and that's what happened. They tried on. Pick and when he was interrogated by the police, he finally admitted to killing forty nine women. He said he killed forty nine, where he and the Nelson undercover cop in itself Evident that what was his demeanor at that time when he said the forty nine was it. He was bragging because he didn't know because he didn't know the it was, even though the man in so cell was another, an undercover cop,
I was discarded ever knew. The killer is again for now. You can be shipped back to Eastern Canada, stand trial on motorways, and so the undercover cop told him how many people he'd kill them Elizabeth, nothing. I've got forty nine, and he knew that the Green River killer Gary Leon Ridgway had killed forty eight. He was quite aware he was one over that he had done One more than Gary Leon, but they were ever able to find the dna of about. Thirty three women, but they couldn't, even though they found the dna of some of these women, they didn't have enough evidence to charge him but their murders, but they felt they had enough evidence to charge about twenty seven pounds.
Ultimately, he only stood trial and sex, because the judge thought jury couldn't take a trial that would have to hear evidence on twenty seven and most people appear code of British Columbia. That heard this case later said that the trial judge had made a mistake when he did that they say you shouldn't try to mall of accounts right. We should now that appeal quotes of the college, should not have thrown out Jane DOE and should not have cut the numbers down to six, because you certainly had you had a lot of families who will never get over the fact that there he did not go on trial for the murder of their daughter. So the wife, brother sister. What I thought was very interesting and I see the same phenomena with the glue. You spoke of the colonel Russell Williams cases well, and we see, unlike America, where this audience primarily rum were playing this program to visit the Canadians.
Do not want to know the truth, whether it but the legal system was about a vulnerable people being order. They just leave. They reviled the details and protest vehemently. You don't want to hear any more detailed where it in America is a completely different animal, where there is a lot of people dead, crave every single graphic detail, not so much out of any morbid curiosity, but just to understand some of these cases there's a real fascination. I wanted to ask you about the public's reaction to the Picton case, because I It seemed that Canada like very much like Bernardo Marco case, but especially in the picture in case there was a real it first public reaction to details that were coming out end and in the media media agency. Has responded by not publishing or reporting on some of those details. I want to know what you.
I want to know what you thought of this phenomena here in Canada. I thought it was a disgrace. I felt that the I felt that it devalued the women yet again, you know I didn't investigate it because they're missing their disappearances were not investigated because they were addicted, prostitute from the downtown Eastside and because you know they had terrible terrible tragedies in their lives and they didn't have any power any cloud, but they did have p, who love them. Many circle, he loved him, and so when the details started to emerge on this case after Mister Crichton, mysteries after you've had to call mister better after really picked and went on trial. You know people would complain to the newspapers into the broadcasters, and so they cut back they'd
read the story in the back of the paper. They told their reporters not to report much detail. Just keep it simple. We don't want to grow said our readers. You know this was all body practices bags and trees is just you know. I'm sort of laughing well said she won't write about anything that has to do with freedom, so I think even America's Jane rule outweighed about thirty five entreated, but it was trousers underplayed and in all the details for underplayed, and I thought it did. I give them one more time because it wasn't, their stories were not being told, and so my my decision when I wrote my book was, I was going to write about every single one of the women on the official list. I was going to say who she was what and how she grew up. How she got into this life of prostitution and and I talk to many of the families as many as I could reach
and then met many of them at the trial and that many like traveled across the country to talk to them got it, come over the years and they told me their stories of these limits and I decided that there would be one place where their stories would be told and where we wouldn't turn away, but from what happened to them. And so that's that's one of the goals I have in writing that this book, but you're quite right William Sky is different and away all the details have been broadcasting endless look on, television papers and so on over the last few five days, but this has been condensed into or five days he said guilty immediately right. There were no no fooling around on this one. It happened very quickly when thicken, with arrested in two thousand and two
and he didn't go on trial until two thousand and seven, but it seems like the picked in case where I found it very. I found it disturbing and surprising. It wasn't really well attended. The trial apparently not concern during and with the Williams case. It seems like again if the criminals high profile and the victims are high profile, then then we can get some reporting on it, but if it's prostitutes or or gay alcoholics or people of lesser stature. It seems. You know it seems bizarre to me that there's this much attention for this and all these details where again the victim case being ignored, because there's not much analysis from what we're going to learn from the picked in case and an, and I want to ask you to what you thought, what you thought about the inquiry now we're going to have probably long and drawn out an expensive inquiry and walk away,
possibly learned. It isn't well illustrate in your book. I dont know I mean it's very interferes in Vancouver last week and the man who is in charge of the Publican inquiry is very highly respected, politician and former judge, but he unfortunately he was the attorney general of the province who, who decided, who said he didn't believe it would be in the public interest to go ahead with the trial on the twenty. So you have families who have just thrown up their hands. They said we don't. Rhythm is public and great. We don't think this is a sham. This is the man who said that it wasn't worth going ahead with trying him on the twenty, and that was why I gotta with one of the twenty, so he's been under, find by that right from the beginning. So it was an unfortunate choice.
And I don't know what will happen but you're quite right level with him through the kernel of the canadian note of the Canadian AIR Force, he killed, two beautiful women, one with her. What's in the military, is well lovely women, good family, my flies pretty not gigantic. Not prostitutes and everything go pick you up there. It's a very odd situation, but- You know, I think, if I think you said it very well yourself, I it's you can't get enough of it. When is these? Women are gorgeous and and successful, but when there prostitutes I care and a lot of people care and a lot of Canadians care and their families care, but you certainly had a big problem with the police and we had a big problem with love
characters and publishers who said public doesn't want to hear this yeah. It is, I think, the I think the media is wagging the dog and I think everyone completely wrong direction. I think they do not and sighed enough with the prosecution, especially in clear cut cases like this and also involve the public which the public as a lot of the public, has a sympathy for victims. I think the media is is missing, guided or misinformed, or misplaced loyalties to I'm not sure who, but I think that you've done a great service by providing all of the information is very, very comprehensive. It's a great great read. It's I mean it's the complete, definitive story about this and every aspect of this completely fascinating story, and it is a tribute to the victims, because the to find out who these people are, you do find out about the families and
and the incredible people that were brave enough to come forward despite we know about the system that it's a thankless job to come and be a witness at a trial in and to endure cross examination. But you ve captured everything, little exciting and fascinating moment of this case, and it's great to have on the program talking about this fast incredible book. So I want to thank you watch tv for coming on the program and sharing your incredible book on the farm with our audience and myself almost thank you very much that it's been a great pleasure for me and I very much appreciate your in. Well, thank you very much and you have a good evening steady it. Thank you very much. Good, bye, bye, bye, bye.
Even listen to the program? True murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them with your host Danzig? Ascii have yourself a good evening. Goodnight. What's a you just bought a house, bad news is you are one step closer to becoming your parents, you'll, probably mow the lawn and ask if anybody noticed you mowed the lawn tell people to stay off the lawn compared to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again good news. Is it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive and save on your car insurance, which
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.