Hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations. With a high interest credit card that may not be a great idea: a better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and one hundred thirty hi, I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and with over thirty thirty.

Blog talk, radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening this is your host Danza passkey for the program, true murder, the motion can killers and true crime, history, and authors have written about them.

Absolutely essential, never find another like making with the capital one saver card. You earn four percent cash back on dining and entertainment. That's four percent cash back on milkshakes, with extra with cream and four percent to get extra loud at the show. The capital one saver card earn four percent on dining and four percent on entertainment. What's in your wallet, hey guys is Taylor. You can buy my new album lover at taylorswift dot com terms applied for one bank, USA Na african american soldier returns home to New York City from the Vietnam WAR in the late 1960s is a time of burlinson change. Racism is very much alive in America Times are tough. A young black man in America, especially one who has fought for his country in an unpopular war Rick Tally, takes, He believes the only economic road open to him, drug dealing prisoner of dream,

dreams presents a large cast of characters from small time, ST hustlers and pimps. The Hollywood in LAS Vegas celebrities to org Nice crime figures. In appointment, eye opening memoir? The author describes his life and times the good and the bad, New York City in Harlem during one of the most seminal periods in american history. The book that we're featuring this evening is prisoner of dreams, confessions of a Harlem drug dealer, with my special guest author Rick, Tally, welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview retalix. How are you I'm glad to be here. Thank you very much for this opportunity to interview. It's congratulations on the book. Like I mentioned earlier, first off. It is a memoir, so it's a little bit different from our for our audience. But again you just let this incredible and fascinating life and use

certainly captured all that fascinating aspects in this book. So, let's start off Rick Why don't you tell us a little bit uh where you grew up and tell us a little bit about your early life and what really sort of moulded you and then we'll talk about other things like: the military and basketball and prison and drug dealing so first, how you grew up and tell us a little bit about that. I grew up. On the upper West side of Manhattan, an I guess what call the ghetto, but we just call it our community. I have a normal upbringing. With my three brothers and one sister, my father was absent, even though I saw him, you know he was doing what he did. He was in the number game man, you know I haven't a pretty basically a normal

Yahoo that I wasn't at the link when I wasn't playing hooky from school you know, even though I did play who every now and then? But basically I went to school worked after school and, like I said I, basically normal upbringing, no different from any of my other friends, and courses were talking about. You were in the Villa yeah war. So tell us what happens Where were you in terms. Age and in terms of finishing high school, where were you when this. Willis. Well, in now, more hot houses tell us about that. Well, I was that was the error where they still had to drive. My draft was, coming up. To hear that I was supposed to finish. High school right out of high school. I was going into the service which would have been in the winter to come in winter I don't like cold weather so

Well, I decided me and a friend of mine, we pushed our draft and we went in that may And I actually finished high school in the service. I went Vietnam, I was in Vietnam. Nineteen six thousand eight hundred and sixty nine last year did tell offense In fact, I was over there the worst war year that the United States had in Vietnam, and I was in the 11th armored CAV and Colonel Patton, the son of the late general. Commanded. The love on CAV, which is his father commanded in world war. Two he wanted to make general So he devised a new war strategy for the 11th a cast and we went everywhere. There was a problem, the DMZ.

Ho Chi Minh Trail behind saying in the Mekong Delta, the everywhere and we stay, we go to sleep in the infantry you go out and you stay out may be anywhere from seven two one thousand four hundred and fifteen days and the unit that I was in you could stay out. Seven, one thousand four hundred and fifteen days you come in. You stay in three days four days, five days to recoup get eminence and everything, but the 11th armored cab operator. You go out to stay out in ninety days. One hundred days, and then you come in to clean The vehicles will restock ammunition and get a shower and relax for two days and then right back out into the jungle on search and destroy missions. You know, in fact we used to,

on him so hard that we used to says I wish we we we up and find so we could I have a fire fight and take a break yeah. Well now. What did you feel? what was your emotion about Vietnam itself before enlisting and then maybe we'll talk, about that has an opinion about Vietnam. Before I wanna do service, you know, uh good news for the as six talk like everybody else did, but I know well formulated an opinion about it, and I love imagine in a million years that I would actually be there. Now, when you went there, of course, you're you're in a infantry tree, like you say, you're in a, but and it's ninety to one hundred days so you're saying the worst of the worst. What are we talking about what kind of horrors did you see in Vietnam

well you know it's nothing like you've ever seen in the movies I'll tell you that and I'll give you an example that I basically give to everyone. Just imagine that you were. Standing up against the wall. And there were. Maybe a hundred men lined up In all of them, shooting at you with machine on it, while you up against the Wall death, the barrage of bullets that comes at you in a firefight, not to mention the bomb the rockets and whatever else they shoot at you and you get into a firefight, maybe break camp and you go out and search and destroy. Maybe

At seven hundred and thirty in the morning, if you get ambush you run into enemy forces within the hour or so after you going out depends upon how big the force. You Eighty nine ten twelve hours of goodbye and it seemed like it- was only five or ten minutes. Well, you know I mean you calling for air strikes. First, you give them a the first thing you call for artillery support. The next thing is to auxiliary stops. Your you calling in the cobra gunship, then after the cobra gunships, You called in the phantom and depending upon where you are you? I call in the battleships this you operating anywhere within the coastline with the battleship new

Jersey in the Holosuite, can support your fire fight you calling in them. So you know an after the fire fight is over you get down on the ground and you go in the bunkers and pull the bodies out and search him. Looking for intelligence- and you know sometime you as you- do that you might stack up one hundred two hundred, maybe three hundred bodies all the times. You might maybe only twenty or thirty bodies, because what they would do is as they flee to the jungle they take their dead and or they tried to take their dead and they Woon did with them so that you don't get a good body come. But if you look at the size of the complex that you actually came up on in the jungle you can see, that is was enough to

or maybe three minutes but and you see blood trails and destroyed bunkers all the way you find on her lack there. So you don't get out estimated by the size of the complex that you ran into How many you actually killed by the blood trails or the body part and then there's all the time that you? Actually you know finnish flag, like you. Might it might laugh. Let me if you look better examples, as I said you pull out together for maybe eight hours, it feels like ten or fifteen minutes, but sometimes the sports, the size of the force of the enemy that you run into is so big and

well, equipped that that eight hours will be twenty four hours. So when night you back off and form a circle. Continue to fight throughout the night. Calling the helicopters helicopter out the same thing that you do in the daytime and then when they break come. You pull back online and you push forward trying to destroy their base camp. Then if this, if the force is like, I said well equipped, which would be the N vietnamese army, not the v Then you will fight the hours pass and the food right for the game. You form the same circle and then you then The breakers again, you pull back online and you push forward when you do that until you destroyed and it's like, sometimes the force so big. I was in the left on the cab I can

remember running into the north vietnamese army with a fight last. The seven or eight days an we would bring on our flanks, the big Red one on one side and call the first. Gavin on the other side, and then the artillery would behind the base camp and so that they couldn't run off. So it's mind bob, you know what war actually is is not. This is beyond belief, you know and, like I said, I have never seen a movie that has three what a five five is really like and no shape form or fashion. Right now and I for my service,

I got one twice, I'm Bronze star of silver, I'll have campaign ribbons, you know so, and it's I said I was trying to be the hero. We would just trying to stay alive and you did what you have to do to stay alive. Since our so how many years were you in the service and three and a half years inside, logically, how did? How did you fare out of that? You see like I say you saw this carnage, but you seem to be the amount Ah psychologically, how did you handle this three one slash two years. What was. Are you the okay instead of the military. At the time I had

a year and because I was on all army basketball team and when the season was over. That's when I went to Vietnam stayed in Vietnam a year when I came back from Vietnam I had, I still hasn't. I had maybe fourteen months left to do. Where is when I came back. They send me to Portal Texas trying. Then they sent me to Fort Knox Kentucky. Put me in another compact unit and then Sergeant informed us when we got there that with their train, other people to get him ready for Vietnam and To stay ready for combat and case the country needs us again,

So when I came back, they didn't train Maine in the others like myself to go out an become productive citizens. They train us hard to continue killing and then this just from the service right And so what did you do immediately? After getting out of the service? You have this basketball career. Talk about a little bit about that. You were, you play pro ball, but what was the I'm like seventeen eighteen years old. What was your well when I label ask people like I said I play up straight up with on or on the team, when I I'm back. No, I didn't play basketball for awhile Becaus. I didn't. I

just didn't see it. You know I didn't even place recreational Mary Ann and it took it, took a little while for me to stop playing ball again and then once I'd start playing again, you know it just all it all came back college basketball, playing the process, semi pros here and so far office on going into different NBA camps. You know with playing with them, so basketball was basketball with this something once I became good at, I was great at it, so I wasn't You know I didn't have to practice all the time to improve. I don't have to do this where you know could get out of state shape, because I wouldn't play for six or seven months, and then I get a call you we want to play here. Our

workout for two weeks and then I'll go play wherever they wanted me to play and I'd be at the top of my game. Well, whoever I play within a play with everybody, everybody who was at my age. Then, who you know guys in the NBA Archer bore everybody. You know play with them all so did you haven't what were your prosp for being and be a and and where- and when did this, The idea of drug dealing come into the play play I mean it seems I to sort out of character. Really never drug problem when you're a teenager. I know from the book that you were doing drugs to psych The logically handle being in the in the in the No, no, that was that was never prosper.

You know it was a job opportunity Nothing more than a job opportunity. It was a way for me to take care of myself. It was a Wait for me to earn a living, so my venture into drug games came because find the and we can make a lot of money. We could make a lot of money, and I this just about- ran out of the money that I had saved up from the service. And I didn't have any employment prospects in the so called legitimate world because does the job that I was being often as a returning Vietnam War veteran were these walks. Parking cars take this ninety dollars. Weekend. That's how you know this is, you know, You don't know how I do anything the service and teach you anything, but how it

so the best we can do for you at the New York State Employment Agency is offer you a job as a dishwasher or parking attendant in some garage one hundred and ten dollars a week, so I took the last of the money that I had an apartment up with a friend of mine and that's how I've into drug game. And the amount of money that I invested. Two become. A drug dealer quote unquote. Nobody. You know believe that I took that mean not me, but me. In my apartment took that small amount of money and did what we did with it.

No, because we started out with ninety dollars which brought us fifty five hours worth of drugs. The bags we needed the tape and rubber bands that we needed to Baghdad sixty five dollars, drugs and that was in July. And by August, we will make in ten thousand dollars every other day, and it now. Sorry go ahead. Mushroom from there. You know Gar Wood, good crew, we're and it took all. You know the main reason for your success: you and your partner, those that you weren't like a typical guy, would take a little bit of of hair Like that and there's no way that?

mount that they used could ever defray the cost of dealing. So at that small amount. So that's the big advantage. You had you made the clear Decin and you were going to be doing any heroin. You weren't interested in doing any of that product used want interest in selling it right. No, it was this business the board and more. And the guy that up on the wood he you, but once he saw that hey, you know this is what we want to build good money to stop. You. Now you didn't initially say yeah. I want a drug deal I want to I want to. I want to sell some heroin I want to. I want to sell some drugs especially when the out of the service? What Is it like getting out of the service in nineteen sixty nine, and coming to New York City. How is things change

I mean I know you're only in Vietnam for a year, but. After you were they're. Parts for the military. We have resentful. Think of Cheeseman man. I wasn't prepared for anything and now look what I've done. The service. I've been a brave I've been in the military. Is that? Why you had? Maybe you had qualms about doing so thing like this: like selling heroin, did you have any qualms at all or it was I have no qualms whatsoever about doing what I did. It was the opportunity, for me to earn a living. Is this a business is not about saying this is what I two world. Look at me, I'm a drug dealer. It was never about that. It was always a business decision entered into this to earn a living

A good living bottom line is there was, but there's no arms, like I mean not qualms, but considerations like not everybody, you know not everybody in your entire family. Can you go to and Listen I made a decision to sell some heroin and everybody's is going to hug you. I mean well of all you know it's a secret society. He does does the myth of the spin it you don't broadcast. This is what I do. You do in total. See, that's the misconception that you know and I can understand because you see it in the movies and you see it on television. This people in my family who never knew what I did to uh. Cool, my mother

Never ever told him anything about me doing this one to protect them. Two who they could never be put in the position to do me no harm by saying something that they should So it wasn't me telling this person. This is what I'm going to do, telling this person It was on a need to know basis if you need know what I was doing. Then you were all part of what I was doing and not privy to everything I was doing, but only what's your involvement with what I was doing bottom line is it you know that is. That is a very, very, very big mistake.

And what we did could never happen again. It'll never be the way it was at the time that, We were doing what we did was what's what's what's different about, I mean there's, obviously huge differences, but what was the main difference that you say that it would never ever happened like that again. Well, first, it will be good for it was in the world of five right now. You know those with those of the drug kingpins right and the way it breaks down to the street this day in a the money. But the same is not is not cool, is, is this gather? Everything is just got then While we were doing it, it was all very

much organized cruise, the Everybody knew everybody, and not just in New York and California, the choice to go. You know New York WAR, drug capital of the world. If you wanted to sell drugs any with a you have to come to new and if and you want equated to the mafia, that's how I was not. Families cuz, like they say, family. Gambino, we know it's going to be so so for, and it was only five of them is. This crew head This cool here, this crew, here and you know the names the weaker New York. Pretty Myers Frank Matthews.

Mickey bond Jesse Gray, I mean I don't even wanna mention Nicky Barnes and Frank Lucas. His name in the same breath that are mentioning these other gentleman but that was an the tentacles re. From New York across the United States into England. Now, how long was it before? Like you say, you took a a real meager investment, you and your partner and the next thing you know you in ten thousand dollars every other day. How long is it before your a real major player, like you say, coast caused all over all kinds of major centers vague ISS. Let's see it took me learning about maybe ten months while

See but I have an advantage because I have been in the service, so I knew people all across the United States. And I knew the character and I knew the makeup. I knew I knew new what they were about, based on being in the service with them being in, now with him. I knew what type of men network right right. It's all when I would get on a plane and fly somewhere to hang out and party. I would stop and check out you know. Maybe you know what you be in listed in this? You know this is an you know. I say if you think you can handle this will sit down and talk. Some said yeah and some said no yay yeah, but you could also trust all of 'em right, nine the trust, all of them, regardless

yeah yeah. I knew I could trust her. I knew like I said. I knew that, make from what I went through with them and I knew they had level heads and I knew that they were men that were respected. I respected them and they respect. And we had. I had every confidence and then, when I sit down to talk with them and explain what was going on and what could go on that. It would go no further, then them and I an that's how it happened and that's how it works, Now the thing is you're dealing heroin were talking about ten months in pretty sure, order your your big players

and you're, making a lot of money and, of course, you doing any of the drug. So are you thrifty with your money? Are you also? Are you more cautious or more? for it, and what do you do to sort of protect you always more confident. Always you know it's so you forward You know this right. I'll, give an example. The people who use the drugs we just set me for we are from the use in a drought and in the beginning of my book I talk about this. You know the dealer is trap, just like the person who's using and the person who's using seize the glamour in life by the tire that the drugs bring on the dealer, this trapped by the

in the luxury of life that that money brings. You know and. Wherever you go, go people in that circle, green would open on and they said everything out for you, although this is so, and so this is you know, so you know you have a power in a secret society. And the things that you can do, the lifestyle that you are able to live is is remarkable. Is this remarkable you,

and then the other part of it is if you're true to yourself when the time comes, to pay your tab because you get caught, you don't sell. His soul, all your family and your friends down the river? You stand up and take what you got coming to you and you go through your time and you keep your mouth shit, unlike some others who claim to be this. This is this: what when they had the foot on the net they told on everybody they could possibly could and then set up even more people to be go where they didn't want to be so that they could be free.

Why you know the thing is like? I know that you weren't, you were not married, so I think a lot of these Married with a few kids. Not to say that to excuse people for ratting out, but I mean I think that there's a different kind of pressure, sometimes that some, you know federal federal agents can apply. Let's put it that way. Walk on this side of the street sure. Then you have to have loyalty to some. And if you're not loyal to what you believe yourself to be, then what kind of person are you now you're talkin about.

Tributes- and I mean you're very, very confident than you can defend any kind of criticism that I might or you know via my audience- some people are are saying: well, you know you sold heroin use old death. You must have known the lives we were destroying how come you did Have any qualms, how come you didn't have any reservations? You know this is the arg. We only a devil's advocate. So you know, I do not have any hesitation at all. Didn't you see any of this, this Or did you see it that way? I listen. You know, that's the same argument:

will be made for these big companies that dump pollutants into the river. What qualms do they have? You know you do what you do based on the circumstances that your face with? Do they have any qualms? This is I come out of the same circumstances that the people who use drugs came out. I chose to do one Thing with my life, they chose to do another thing with this: I'm not responsible for them. Making that choice. Can't hold me responsible for them, making that choice Becaus I took the opportunity to supply them what they wanted, so that I could live a better life. Is this

you know an morally more rules, change all the time. You know an you just the and seeing is district attorneys and lawyers and priests and rabbis two morality. This is how you are supposed to live, and, if you don't live this way, then you're, not a good person and you destroying the moral fiber. Of the nation Bennion Next Eugene Gold District attorney has his finger in a little Four year old girls, private parts, rabbis molested children, priest molesting, chill

All in the name of religion, so how can don't stand in judgment of me because the path I chose Live because I'm not going out and taking anybody and pulling into a hallway, a dog room and porn the drugs down their throat. They made a conscious effort that they wanted to get high. I made a constant effort that I didn't want to get high and I wanted to make money now most Okay accept that, but that's the reality of life well, I also found interesting too, is that when you said you really, didn't think one way or another morally for war and went to war and writing a book, there was people that

based on your job there do to you. Did your job well as also and people were killed. And again you have a well for exactly exactly Now again, you know you're making a lot of money and your fly under the radar? At least you think you're, flying under the radar and probably under the the kind of thing people would call radar you're, not a flashy guy, like you say you are not. You don't have to kill anybody, you don't really get your hands dirty you're, not that kind of guy you're. There was enough to go around for everybody. So, despite what the movies have to say, you really didn't have that constant threat you weren't at that level, you are very secretive. You had legitimate businesses, you concert promotion. Record labels, so you put your money where, where was

It in the community anyway, and you had those passions and those people, connections and friends, and so, like you say you, you have to wash money. You could just use money, basically and, and so, but what happens in terms of where you cautious enough in terms of protecting yourself from you know going to prison. No, evidently not. I spent twenty two years in prison. So you know you Evidently I wasn't close enough, but I don't think of you know so we didn't move in thinking in terms of doing this, we set up our system and that's what we did. We worked our system suppose

these work day systems haha, you know, I'm the police did what they did and I did what I did. I didn't. I wasn't trying to disrespect the police by flowing anything in their face and, like I said once again, the reality of the situation is the a secret society, so you can not all a drug deal on a two of these. A drug dealer respected member of the community, I'm a Even though one of my businesses- it's under the radar, even though one of my business is on little radar, my other businesses employed people in the community.

I'm not driving up and down the street shooting people on the street, I'm not shooting that, this God killing the innocent child. I'm not. Do any of that, I come out. Play with the kids in the neighborhood out by thing we go on pavement. You know we did all come boss run everything. So if it's not all about the Grigri Stick money in my practice and damn everybody else. If you wanted to do some and I could help you I'll help you this just that it's just that simple, you know, you know they will turn that women that I know who work the whole scroll There were, men that are new burglars, rob Rob the mother's whatever, so that

it would take care their habits, but they will also come that they didn't have money Anne. If they approach me, can y'all work, I'm sick, yo. What you need, and I give it to him. It wasn't kid out of my face. Get the money to do this, you know here man boom play me whenever you can. If you don't pay me, I'm not gonna say nothing about it. You know, but I'm so you know you're going to need help again, so you know they always paid because they always knew that if push came to shove, Dave in I have to go. Do whatever they did sick from not being able to get out so, you know, if not like I say you know, I was

in about stepping on somebody next to rise above the crowd. You know that's what they people chose to do. I have nothing to say about that. I wouldn't disrespect them because you know uh, they afforded me the opportunity to live the way I wanted to live so Are you know hey? If nothing else I can say about it is just that simple. They want to do that, and I wanted to do this by me. Doing this gave them a better quality of what they would get in

anyway for all, and there were several times that the New York Times and other newspapers wrote about that dynamite rates. Hey you know without having to be associated with that crew, you know and tell them what to do. How can we give it away? The way He was giving it away the people who, we use and we're very happy getting two for the price of one a better grade than anybody. Wells had anywhere else across the country. So you know it was simply business. Now Rick. I want to ask you it because not everybody historically knows drugs. The drug business and drug deal. Bing and drugs in general are much different in two thousand and thirteen. They were different in The 80s heroin New York city was abundant.

Again you were selling small amounts of heroin, so people and certain In inner city, where. Or everywhere we were able to buy small amounts of heroin and cocaine? Wasn't around or not very popular, till much later so how long this run was before we get around to talk king about how they finally got it to arresting you and giving you the big time, and I know that the twenty two years you got Seventeen of that last bit so there must have been. There are a couple other shorter bits in there, but tell us tell us a little bit about actually Heroin itself, because I think that's It's history that people don't really know about how popular Heroin was, and this is before cocaine and so tell us how long was run. You also a misconception because cool with very pop.

At the same time Parowan with popular it just cost at that time, so much more right right and what it was there, because I also so called. I back one of my cases was for our soul, ten pounds of cocaine, To federal agents in another state. And how much time did you get for that? I didn't get anything you know. I was fortunate enough will a good lawyer I myself and several others involved in that case beat the case and the only person who actually ended up getting the time was the informant that wore the fez in as a friend. Well, I think that's a good one.

That's an interesting development usually doesn't happen. Right. It doesn't. It took me two years to beat that case right right and a bushel full of money. Probably too right. Yeah, I get a lot of money. A lot of money out there close to a million wow well. Now. Did you use? Do you always use the same attorney? I mean this guy's Dundee real well, so yeah I used same attorney. I use him today to handle my all my legal businesses right right, Ann he's family in his own right and what's his name a large stone but yeah, pieces that Paula drug case. He was only got to get a defend. Go off. In that case, he He handled the we one of the westies.

He had. He was down with the lawyers in Chicago for the Chicago six uh Oh, oh, really, yeah yeah, so you There are several books out on him: yeah He was friends with Nicky Bonds attorney. For Larry's of lawyer, he won't handle anybody who is turning informant right. You know he handled the air Rick the case after he had lost all his property and was sent to the penitentiary. The rest of his life, Larry got a mile and got his is mother's house back somebody's airplanes and a couple of his mentions black form, because illegally yeah. Larry is a very, very good lawyer with offices and. Barry is California in across the country.

In a nutshell, how did he get you? What was the basis of of your not being convicted. The the agents lot trying to implicate myself and two other people, and they put us in a place that we couldn't possibly have been for the scenario that they said to place great yeah secret defense are now you end up you end up doing you do twenty two years. Total, but your last bit, you did seventeen of that. So tell us about these. Tell these these bits and and what goes on there? You you're you're, not scared straight from doing some time now Why? Why would I had already been in a what could possibly send me about prison yeah? And it was Saying nothing intimidating about prison when you went in I mean

I know your celebrity period for me. There's nothing in life best intimidating. So after the military, I guess nothing is is, is going to stack up against it anyway, right, not really, and. And you know I did things in prison where the corrections staff tried to kill me a couple of times. Why is that it? Because they didn't like the way I carry myself. You know they? wouldn't make me act out of character? No, they couldn't get Maine. Into argument and if they

came to me with rules and regulations? I knew the rules and regulations bugs than a did. You know, and that kind of infuriated gated. It was like all this up with and the last time they will I want to make an attempt on my life. Another correction officer warned me and told me what was going to take place and pointed the offices out so that, like They move me out of their reach so that they couldn't actually do what they God plan. Where were you doing time those couple bits all over in the state of New York, all over. Wherever they had a bed. They sent you, you know Greenhaven sing, sing, Auburn Clinton.

Add occur, so just differ. Places they process, you assess you and then yeah, you know how language you. They move you around, you know and then moving around Ann. Actually I was I was in Comstock and I hated constant because Comstock was so so dirty I mean filthy. When you pull up on Comstock, you look like You going back in time to medieval days and I got a new all of those rats, my Chase roaming around and I'm like you, sit down and eat. You got roaches in your foolin. In your locker in your cell? You got mice that don't run from you

it hard in your boobs, and you gotta put your pulled on in your stepping on one. So yeah. I got tired of that so one morning I didn't even go to breakfast. I just got up and went to student account for a lot. This one in line when they told my counselor. I want to get out of here who some Tell me what's going on now we can protect you. I said barber in Maine. Nobody bother me. Are you crazy? I said this place is filthy. I wanna get outta here. I said I don't care where you send me just give me a. He should you told me know I two weeks later they sent me. I was happy to get out of it then, and Every time I had to ask my counselor. Could I go to Africa? He says Nobody has to go to Attica.

What's going on. Why you want to go to Anika Send me the Attica. You know I have some friends up there I go up there and hang out with them for a couple of years. Are you know, I'm not sure I wasn't trying to avoid some place because they were saying this place is hard or this place. Is I didn't, kill I'm in prison? It's a bad you going I mean a cell at nine at night and at seven hundred In the morning, you gonna crack it and send me the breakfast. So. Atticus Clinton Greenhaven, the only place I didn't want to be, and that's because it was filthy. What any other prison we talk about. It was tough and is this in is that I think you will use it. It didn't make a note. Difference are couldn't go home. I couldn't go see my girl, I couldn't go see my son

I couldn't go. Hang out with my brothers. I couldn't see my mother, you also prisoners prison, One is not tough with another. Now, let's get, around to talking about how you, finally, they finally in snare you and send you to prison for a long bit and tell us a little about that 'cause. I was a surprise. I'm sure tell us how they finally do get you and are there federal charges and tell us about why this is such a big trial. You've done a little bit of time before you've gotten out of charges. How come so big now

And was well, you know how much of his own the it was a break for a lot of time. What the lawyer Larry all we, the charges, the indictment charges, the and one think they always do with the Open died if you get caught with coming out of a building or going into a building. Ann. You have drugs, one of the charges you gonna get. Trust passing burglary criminal trust pass. So you have the drug charge will be. You will be invited, maybe ten different ways on the draw Todd, then for being where you are and alone

look spot or whatever you get. Ten different indictments, counsel indictment for that so in all actuality you walking into a building with a kilo too. She knows whatever it is that they catch you with. You have uh ordinary person will look at that and go Well, he had x amount of drugs, but when the indictment comes out, you have seventy five counts when yeah cause they stacked indictment. That makes it almost virtually impossible for you to be every charge.

But when you have a good lawyer, they work enough to the top software off the indictment. And then, when you get down to the accounts on indictment, They try to make sure they can keep enough, so they can add up in a few years so that you can stay gone, 4a good period of time. But then again, If in the hands of the lawyer, if you have a proper attorney, then those counts can be whittled down to where as opposed. Is you doing twenty five years? You might do six or four. So you know it's all stacked indictments.

Yeah. How long you going to go away for and what you will actually be convicted of, and you know a lawyer who is court were EV. Will always get to if not completely off the least amount of time. So what actually happened that you were looking at a huge sentence for once what how did they get enough evidence against you? What circumstance the amount of money that they could not fun that disappeared. That k from under covered by they've. Got me the time. How much money we talking well four hundred and twenty two thousand dollars that disappeared. What does the circumstances of the arrest in the setup.

They came came from seeing a certain person who didn't get arrested. Made the arrangements which One of them happened to be on the cover. A husband and wife team. Gave me the money made and I made arrangements with someone else to see them. I did another time what they ask for, when certain things didn't take place, because certain elements of their team jumped the gun and snatch other people off. We- for anything actually took place and only one transaction had taken place was.

Them handing over the money. They didn't wait to get what they were supposed to get just a little farther case money with And they said they sent me in front of the hanging judge wasn't even in the drug court. The hanging Judge Judge laugh, but What happened was they took me out of the left court? Send me across the street to one hundred and eleven, which is the drug court in New York. Everybody. I know you wanna live in New York, you need your cord, so they took me out of just last score at one hundred center, St And sent me over to one hundred and eleven does Benjamin and I got a hung, jury. So and so.

Child after the Hungary file and they sent me back in front of judge, left well and wow. That's he was determined to get me Ann. The reason when he went out got sentence. My lawyer told told him he said: look, you can't sentence Mister tally to the maximum amount of time. This conviction? Because if you sentence him to the maximum amount of time, then what do you give a drug dealer, the caliber of Leroy Mickey bar? So I got the second. I stand it under the statute,

suppose to the maximum. So what was your actual sentence? Fifteen alive, ok, fifteen to life? Ok, so we could apply for parole after fifteen years. And and not an actual fifteen years or good behavior, no straight fifteen. Three. Fifty. When they say fifteen two thousand five hundred and fifty to life. That number that you get. You have to do every single day office. So This was a serious bit wasn't this. Is this changes your life? Seventeen years I mean not that everything Doesn't change your life, but so

change my life. It definitely changed my life and at what? What did you do to sort of survive? I mean it's, it's the tedium, it's the everyday, it's the everything and it's the same old and it's everyday. Say man, I couldn't even begin to tell you what I did no. The riots and- stabbings in the murders and the gang fights in them police, shooting off the roof into the yard and shooting people and busy? is prison, is mind, boggling and is boring and boring,

Diamond important is like crazy, well yeah so, but you have plans when you and your bettering yourself you're staying If you're playing basketball- and they said, is this group yeah there's lots of good war and I mean pain, one of the. That I quote, while I was in prison, there was a deputy superintendent Nelson. And you know he looked at the people that are maintained, contact with outside of prison. And the people who you know stayed in contact with me. Entertainers actors actresses.

He was so irate with me. He asked me who do you think you are. Not even no. He said if you, because back up a little bit one of the things I did do wiles in prison, I was at. For is right. The people that are was associated with in the prison system of the prisoners bought a different kind of order So I will get a lot of power the prison walls. As far as influencing of the prisoners.

But the influence that I will do came from a pen and paper so whenever there was a problem or prisoner had a problem. They came to Maine and Mark because I got on the grievance committee, so they came to me and the rest of the group who- and it was the first time that the grievance committee was this powerful on behalf of the prison population. Because, most of the time that job I will fill with people prisoners, that the police could wheel the power with an influence and a lot of the times they have. You know their reputations were upstairs but when I got on the grievance committee in the people that came Whitney, there was no question of.

Who we were and what we were about, our reputation with salad, and we did things this families in other prisoners, rule RD Racing prisons are going the wrong things to other prisoners. So you know I grew lot of golf. The wrong way. That's why they were trying to get rid of me by it means necessary right, but. So so you're very active sorry go ahead, no also, so You know those are the things that I did you know. While I was in prison, not that I set out the doom, but there was an itch that needed to be filled and gravitated towards it.

Now you again are working to get out of there. That's your main goal is to get out nuts. You know most people's get out and do something different and and. And so you get out after seventeen years. Actually you're paroled, you gotta be on your best behavior What do you do when you get out I got a medical license. I open a couple of businesses. Some of my friends from Nigeria work with them for a couple of years I did promoted a few concert, I worked as a dj on Abr, a major radio network. You know just feeling my way back into society, and how long is it been since you've been released

Oh I've been twelve years twelve years and this book here again. I wanted to ask this and save this question: why did you decide to call it a prisoner of dreams and How long did this very very personal and exhaustive effort? How long did it take you from beginning to end, Will say in the writing process telephone one year, and why why prisoner of dreams? What is the meaning behind that prison of dreams? Is article. Cancel. They had written an article about me, playing basketball and fashion design and ended some of the actresses that are new, who came. To see me when I have one of the small biz that I got out on. Anne also coach of

the golden state warriors came into the prison to get me out so that I can play for the golden State warriors my so the sandals the Mercury NEWS Parade Magazine where article appeared Call that article prisoner of dreams so. Oh I see we all are prisoners of our dreams, so uh applied it to the book. Saying if you look, you know an I wrote about that ha so myself in the book, Anne. What I was going to do an mri that I truly believe myself to be

then I am no longer a prisoner of my dreams. I'm going to start to live again and not have the title came about Right and you been doing the book signings, what what is it like? I'm You've done so many things in your life and so many things that are tough and you and you veered. What's it like doing this it. I know I've looked at book, signings and I really enjoyed him. What's it like for you to be an officer part of his mom, enjoying the mamas and the time of my life yeah. Well, I'm having the time of my life you know thing now is that. I'm earning a living and is safe money. I don't ever have to worry about someone coming for Maine to take it.

It also yeah. Well that's a good feeling and and prisoner of dreams. Do you have a website regarding the book at all? How can People, if they feel necessary to contact you they can go to prison of. Change they can go Amazon dot com they could go to. Barnesandnoble dot com, they can go to to christygicmediabook dot com. Those are probably an facebook. Are you on Facebook, under your name or under prisoner of dreams,. Under my name and on the personal dreams. Great. So that's interesting! Ok, that's good! I want to thank you very much Rick for coming on and talking about your book prisoner dreams. Congratulations on this very fascinating story! Thank you

Thank you for writing and sharing it with our audience tonight. Thank you very much Rick. Thank you for having me. I want to say again thank you very much and you been listening to prison for one thing before we end sure sure in my book I talk about You know a lot of people who were legends in their own in their own. Truly legends and that lifestyle on the 21st of this, Freddie Myers, passed away Yes, you have you familiar with his name, but New York, thirty miles, there's movies and things about to come out about him. He passed away. He did twenty four years well, Well, thank you very much Rick for this wish you the best of luck and hope to hear from you again soon. Thank you.

Alright. Thank you. Alright have a good night. Hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with the Quicken Loans thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two: five percent the receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions, because when it wasn't enough to states and one hundred thirty, is your cell phone bill out of control? Then this is your wake up. Call the new truck from wireless gives you unlimited talking text owning a twenty dollars a month, no contract plus unlimited carryover data with active service yep the new track phone wireless. Now your in control see terms and conditions a track phone dot com.