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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime, history, room murder with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening on September, Fourteenth nineteen. Ninety one in Anchorage, Alaska, pregnant Peggy Barnett, along with her nine year old daughter, drove to the post office, to deliver a package to an associate George care and to

fifteen miles outside of Anchorage Georges Father. David care picked up the package three days later and brought it home. Keene's wife, Michelle were in the kitchen when David open the package, the explosion was so intense, neighbors fear there had been an earthquake. David died instantly, but Michelle survived. Michelle told us postal inspectors that Doug Gustavson was involved. It was no secret that Douglas Gust of sin and his cohort Raymond Chili despise George CARE had knowledge of explosives and like to blow things up. However, they had perfect alibis there already in prison for murder. An investigative task force was formed led by Us Postal Inspection Service, with assistance from the Anchorage Police Department in the Us Department of the Treasury bureau, alcohol, tobacco and firearms ATF to solve this case. The book featuring this seating

Alaska Mail bomb conspiracy with my special guest, the legendary borough, bear. Welcome to the program- and thank you for me- much more green. This interview, the legendary borough, bear yes, he is a living legend in my own mind, always a pleasure to be on your program Dan and I go to practice being very stoic today to fit in with the car vibratory pattern? Yes, yes, it's not canadian. It emanates from a canadian so much my pleasure. As thank you. It's always a pleasure to have you on burl and let's talk about this Alaska mail bomb conspiracy, conspiracy. How did it come that you were involved with this? Why this story What was again tell us some of the deal. How do they get this one? How do I get so lucky? Yes, I'll go

back to the book. I did immediately before I started this down, even though you ask a mail bomb. Conspiracy came out fairly recently. I started what was going to be a full length book a long time ago, over twenty years It was a book that I was doing immediately after man overboard the counterfeit resurrection of those champagne and doing for the same publisher, Nw Publishing, and it was during my investigation of man overboard the time At the United States, postal inspectors, who involved in that case as well, there, the one who told me about this horrific just absolutely So awful awful case of this mail bomb could spit, had and what it took to solve it. And I thought this is absolute

fascinating and I did a proposal for the book. We could good deal and working on it and story of a US. Postal inspectors were so so thrilled to be having a book done about them because even in the United States of America, where people I was sort of student, knowledgeable of government issues reporter totally ignorant of the US postal inspectors- In fact, the gym bordinat, who I must credit with being at absolutely fantastic. And his help in pudding. This thing together, he may sure that this book, your vet or are you a? However you want to call it is one hundred percent factual? I mean he made sure I made no mistakes divided. He may be correct him say so you're getting a real deal story here, but he brought this to my attention and we started working on it

and then I didn't get paid, and I didn't the next month or the next day, and they called and said I was- is broker on all the US postal inspectors. There should well here's the problem I I haven't been paid and about two or three months and that's kind of they do a screaming halt. Well, I went fishing for a couple weeks with my kids have a Loon lake WA, and I got there was a fax on my fax machine. Remember those I have no fax and there was a message from the US postal inspectors saying give Mister Fairview will appreciate this press release. Ages, seven United States, postal inspection service or office with the actor called raided. The offices of Nw Publishing confiscated their computers And they went down turns out.

True crime was allegedly the publisher and his son, who allegedly we're spending the money rather than in the bills or but daddy was like three million dollars in corporate checks: cash that the money tree in the mall getting over two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in check, cashing fees. So For awhile, the Alaska Mail bomb conspiracy was one of the assets of the company that was in the litigation and the a few years for me to get the guesstimate. We're back in the rights back because it was considered an asset of the company. Then what am I going to do with it?. Well several years later, let's fast forward to the wonderful through an editor flowers got hold of it asked. If I would yes go ahead,

say something that then no, no sorry, no, I was just saying: yes are barely hours the farmers who are cranks up look fashion, I can read him in a variety of genres. He said that borough do you like to be a master of true crime, and I said well I'd like to be the master of something in slavery is no longer legal. So sure because I got to be in the rarified atmosphere of you know all these really great true crime writers. So I figured I was snuck in mercy credit, you can pass that up. Well, then, what Is there going to do well, I already had all the research, the Alaska Mail bomb conspiracy and I've found are still at gym: Bordinat phone number tucked away somewhere, and even though he's retired he's so well connected the department that had all the information and if he

I'll be make sure I got a right and got it accurate and we launched into this thing and I'm really happy with the way it came out now. Why would shorter than the traditional true crime book I've always had the feeling of that died of French or do what I put this in writing? I think, but we said it out loud when we did the book a taste for murder and betrayal and blue and the just to put a man, Tori workout. True crime book isn't really rational. Because if you have to do a hundred thousand words on a story that takes a eighty thousand to tell a really well, what do you doing with the other? Twenty thousand words? And that's always bothered me so when you read a really fast moving mystery, such as so say, mind

kind of digital environment by novel headlock going to check in between fifty five thousand, maybe sixty five thousand, apps. You know is aware of good quick, read perfect for the beach, but it's uh Sometimes you go with Sarah true crime or what they call now non fiction. Thrillers. How you find yourself reading their video, although I'm sure he padded this with unnecessary facts, we don't have just those who killed, who and have lots of pictures uh to our franchise is set my book. Let's just write the book. Told the story, we told the story and do very well with that- that this is kind of the same on this. This book this could have been x added to whatever

word count. Anybody wanted because it was. Let me tell you how extreme this in the investigation and out a little bit the crime to that would be helpful. But almost everybody in the state of Alaska was why are capped. And I'm not exaggerating they do Get federal authorization to wiretap, almost everybody in Alaska that could possibly any connection to any of the people. Why did they thought may have been involved in these dole may have been involved so that men, everybody. The is process of elimination with we can eliminate as many people as humanly possible. Then we could get down to who may have. It is absolutely horrifying crime yeah! You actually that Michelle survivor, I think everybody many times when she was she hadn't,

that only with your husband, killed at her house destroyed her face was melted their eyes were filled with glass boast horror news, crew, shooting pain for this woman that only physically, emotionally psychologically. Financially, I'm sure many times when she wish she had been a thing forgotten forgotten. Quite very, very tragic and I was trying to kill her and nor was trying to kill her husband. The the two people who actually it comes down to about three or four responsible for this horrible crime. We're trying to kill her cute little puppy. Dog George, the teenage, Are you boy or an adult boy?

Is there a mad at him because he testified against them in their murder trial, and so they decided to kill him from prison and Peggy the sister pregnant, as you mentioned, drove to the post office over a very bumpy road could've induce late right there on the spot and for two dollars and twenty two cents, males death and destruction, to the home of George and his father and step mom really horrible. They mainly found his knuckles on the roof. That's how powerful that explosion was, and it was just a horrifying things. So so ask me something and I'll answer it. Let's go back to the characters responsible here, the main characters and the ones you you paint a very vivid

portrait of Raymond Smiley Chili, and you can tell us why the column, Smiley and Douglas Lizard Gustafson. You tell us where this derailment smiley cheaply and that was Douglas Lizard, Texas, NR, neither bright men Norman characters that convicted teenage murderers. Now chili nickname drives from his continual grin he looks happy just as if he had brains, Augustus Caesar this reputation by his life of human warmth. Naturally, they became the best of friends. They to Chugiak high School a world Educational institution where they dissipated there mid teen years have repeated displays of antisocial behavior. On the other, your body buddies. It hung out with them Travis and Eric and this guy and that guy and they did all sorts

cool fun, teenage things like blowing up mailboxes. You know is not too much to do in chugiak, right shoe you, because he had a big, suburban anywhere that parties he get a lot people and in that suburban. I read they're also down for as the burden brothers 'cause. They used to put out their cigarettes in their arms fairly, a shortage of aspiration, chugiak sure, uh we just need to show they were tough or nuts were both or one of the two. Other fairly field of fearless. They they would rob places do all sorts of stupid stuff. Yeah they are, they would get a yes, get in trouble for things. They were juveniles and he can't do too much too him. You know we don't want to 'cause What's the the law enforcement, if the juveniles,

I think we can make it to the age of twenty four, you got nothing more to worry about 'cause you by then maybe the grown up where they've got Mary and that usually slow him down tremendously when he got it. If it's not the president's a so, they usually takes care of them, but what chili ramen chili, but rather lizard Gusterson still wanted to go? the nickname lizard. I wouldn't be that please, but apparently didn't bother him. He always wanted to be a sniper. Whether officially or unofficially, Will mail ordered Leave a and I sniper rifle head course will watch the kids going to do with a rifle like that, except he was recklessly didn't. Take very many guns. Fifty courses or if they did, they totally ignore them through Driving along in the car

smiley is driving. Lizard is in the passenger seat. The little George's is in the backseat. Lizard has his brand new weapon, Anita he's going to fire it, and so it does. That's nice, the rifle arrived October, 19th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety, and they had this funny have a fun evening said that they had some prostitutes meeting them, but a motel weather all just gonna. You know smoke dope and have sex with south of fine to me, except that on the way to the Zoo party, lizard, decides he's going to take a pot shot with a rifle and he does. Support comes out of the rifle goes through. The rear window of a another car and kills this kick in.

I don't mean a little kid, but you know as a young man in the passenger seat Now that's fairly shocking right: there yeah you talk about this Jeffrey Kane, he was the passenger shot, but They don't stop and they don't realize that they've actually killed anyone, despite targeting this car, they used use the premise that they had cut off, so they shot every kind of because me off in a car, Lord knows I get out of sniper rifle sure sure yeah they don't really. They don't realize immediately that they've actually killed this guy till George care the next morning. Is the paper. What does he read in the paper and then what does he decide to do?. Well. He has more ethics and brains in the other. To put together, next morning. He gets up Yes, you get to work, it's a cab home, is the morning newspaper

and he realises that Gus is an add, missed. He called the guise of the boat. Well told them what happened they told gives their mouth shut. Well, he We didn't take immediate action to protect himself. His life future word immediate danger. 'cause, he was the car in the gun was fired hanging. I would teenager tough guys is one thing but murder something else entirely and and that's when he told him Ross. What happened now Bush are quizzes. His bosses attorney was there at the same time he told the you go to the police. Do it immediately, so we did and the cops everything in it you to hidden recorder to tape incriminating copy stations which he leave Gusterson. So, while, while over there thought his son was at work, he was really out with the police getting wired up long story short. He

got them under on. Why are you know, they're talking about killing you're shooting either intentionally left? Actually, this Jeffrey Caine, fellow and, The media attention as you can imagine, was them extensive. It was anchorage his first drive by shooting and Denominal well, she got to talk about up there now. It became really big story. You have a scene in this story, though again very movie, ask where chili doesn't was at the House of Georgia area with his dad, and so they they were there. Make sure they're on a premise there that they needed David to help them with their vehicle. But really was there. You right that was real

basically there to make sure it didn't rather out, at the same time, tell us what was happening while they were there to ensure again rat out. Yeah well have work was really with the cops. Finally, he calls his dad Explaining what happened the night before and I we plan to help the police now, as you say, when George called his dad, he had no idea. The chili was right. There at the house She was obviously there to make sure that George had rolled over on him and uh the United say they made it. This knowledge and story about eating help, repairing the truck well, here's his dad standing there listening to it tell him about this murder. All the perpetrators are standing right there next to him, so he has to do to cover up what he saying what the conversations about without tip not chili.

George is already gone to the cops now as a precaution, the cops Saint George to talk to Doug, system. Meanwhile, the police car directed everyone on the fringe of chili shrinking gang and got all the where wires. So we everybody's recording everybody else and the fans off the rise wire everybody in Alaska's phone comes up later. You know this comes up after the after the Puppy Dog Georges Attempted murder, when is the Father, is killed in his step. Mom is melted, so you've got this big story. Big trial, Jillian and Gusterson, are sent to prison for life. Now to this doesn't stop chili from gritting constantly and it does this up. Blue from being cold

list. Everybody is going to get even with he should I kill him he's going to blow him up he's going to do something horrible to him, everyone from the judge to the prosecutor, but first of all, who they most despise or they most hate, is George little joy, puppy, Dog George Cute kid. They want to kill him more than anything because he ratted him out and he did smartly needed immediately. Well, question is: is how do you get a mail bomb? How do you make it how do you mail it and how do you kill your victim. Well, they did everything except the last part that killed say the wrong people, because it's not right to kill people, but they killed George's Father and IST

boy, the life pretty darn, much of his step, mom Michelle when she was questioned by Anchorage police and by later by the inspectors post US postal inspectors, the task force. She somehow knew and thought and was adamant that it was Doug Gust inside of Us- is a sponsor. Will. Because there it was no secret just to sit in absolutely little George, because he was that did did you know, was in the back seat when the trigger. He'd been with him, you know the type four party at the motel and better base. Here, George doesn't rat out on this he's gotTa but now set George didn't keep his mouth shut, he told the truth and they they didn't blame themselves

or what resulted in innocent guys do they shot on the highway, but they do I'm George, for talking about it and so their big revenge was to kill him an the way they're going to do it as a mail bomb. You write the two hours after the explosion. The investigative task force was formed. We mentioned in the introduction Anchorage Police Department. U S, department, Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco and firearms ATF an inspector Russell memory is Task Force leader. They spent a couple of weeks at the crime scene to establish that this was an axe what found materials that you only find Radioshack. So actually they had all kinds of forensic evidence, but they also you talk about and inspect

Matthew Allen. We all know that most, I think all prison we phone cover. But in this case lower level recorded, But that doesn't mean anybody listens to him yeah yeah there in lies. The crux of the matter. This guy must have had the patience of two saints. Because he sits and he listens two hours upon hours upon hours of banal Boring useless prisoner phone conversations really just as not say anything I mean I gotta tell you I had in my position. Thanks to the United States postal inspectors, they gave Maine absolutely every and when I say everything I mean everything

see this giant box of transcripts, of wire caps on these characters. Now, just listening to their conversations is bad enough. But reading them. If you have any Band of the language is uh huh, horrifying experience. Yeah. I bet I'm at a loss, for words, is a worst of it. Loss for words, hi guys So tired of four letter word that begins with F and ends with k that, if I knew I saw that word again in my entire life, I'd be perfectly happy. Every every word was prefaced with some form of that. So, like George Carlin is a comedy routine on how useful the word is, it could be and out of her vaginal, never they used ways, even Carla, never vacationed and

their conversations were as blunt their vocabulary devoid of any depth, and it was just just able to read it. I mean you, don't have to get too deep in these guys. Famous for the use of metaphors It was all right there. You know every other word was was an expletive to just like rain rained constantly. So this is example of how cooperative everybody was in this case. With me and one reason for that's after the fact they wanted. The story told once told well was that the Us Postal Inspection service hadn't been subject of anything since one thousand eight hundred and forty nine Movie Post office, investigator starring male lead was but

Audrey Long was the female lead and she was. The wife became wife of Leslie Charteris all through the Saint C. Small world. It is yes, it is so that was kind interesting little Thai in there, but I really really aggravated really aggravated, I think, Jim, for the first talking about doing this book. He said I was watching the news and it said FBI agents aided by postal workers rated the office of such and such it sounded like you visualize. You know these mail carriers rushing in pulling machine guns, other mail bags, well, yeah United States, postal inspection service as a bigger and better lab than the FBI that busy does occur to people did the Us Postal Spectres investigative service is state of the art everything already beyond the FBI. At least they were at the time

Now here's a shocker little thing that I uncovered that most people don't know in the 1990s early 1990s like ever. Who is head of the FBI, then call me, I think, may have been. Or more, I can't recall one of the two. The average teenager in am Erica had more computer power in their bedroom. Then the FBI had altogether the FBI's still didn't have computers with hard drives. They have like you Franklin Age, one thousand two hundred oms, you know with Cpm Cpmi floppies This is what the FBI had, because there hadn't been budgetary allocation for computers for the FED. Investigation. Can you imagine that Reagan, no from the

computer industry which they did to testify before Congress? It was imperative that the United States, up with the money to buy the B computers, in fact, muted, with hard drives and Computers are there about bows, I mean that's how what the state was. Technologically, our FBI in the early 1990s. So there had to be a lot of upgrades to the FBI, little sidebar story. There you live, find. We always we always think of the I's, be state of the art. Well, the art of the state, had to get up with the state of the art, but whoever at that time, with this inspector Matthew, Alan from the US postal Inspector investigative task force on Sept,

for fifth, he discovered in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one twelve days before the explosion. Gust of sin called Peggy you giving instructions about fixing her car. What did he find by listening to that transcript or reading that transcript and listening to that phone call? What did he determine those in functions actually were. Oh ok, I think I got it right here is a matter fact. I got I have wrote the book, I thought this is it because of a perfect memory? It's because I got the book Alan called it inspectors bakery public the more they listen, the more they learned, the conspiracy little care involved, Peggy Drug there, Craig Did Chile, a mutual friend chose Brian Peggy, the weather was all done. He'd sit back in his self quotes. Both are nice juicy cigar down a glass of spirits and la

laugh so hard. That's not a good sign now for recording source revealed, Peguese erotic dream in which she kills George, who thereby their hands have they're, hitting with her car. That extra was actually included in the original charging documents filed against Peggy, which form the voices for initial arrest. There's a pretty wild and he died. I started off the book with that with that dream, where she yeah it was really weird because she's telling her brother, but erotic dream. She has where she shits George, on purpose with her car r and then he's laying there on the gravel with uh blood coming out of his mouth and she breaks his neck with their bare hands, as, blood on her hands, and she almost has an orgasm told this story, and so does her brother and he just loves to listen, but he will Rogers his bed, be careful about the blood

after all, we're Jehovah's witnesses. We got to watch out for that blood. And they were Jehovah's witness. This is matter fact no bad reflection on the witnesses. They don't need Peggy in Doug. Reflecting might be sure you talk about too that once. The with from the again from this phone line and from the some of the things incriminating things it Peggy said and other people said, and you say well, there was more than it was not just George cares wire tap and that was- very effective, getting incriminating evidence. There was also other wiretap evidence presented at this trial. There was also another person name, Joseph Ryan. What was his role in this and and tell us a little bit about four Pass it with him. Hot poured rows of riot Ik. I figured this wet out. This is one four, the legal. Books that I'm sure it's reference somewhere? It's fact

Erin Moriarty, who are does the CBS forty eight hours. She was a guest on my show a few times and I said air. Could you imagine a case where someone is found guilty and sentenced to fifty seven months in prison? Our crime they've never been charged with she's in No, that's impossible and I said well, you gotta it Joseph a Ryan and head, and absolutely. Virtually nothing to do with this. It was just a buddy of chili's. This said: hey, would you go over to the yard? Can I get a You ever been to Alaska or be sure Washington not much difference. He got. We've got yards they've got cars and trucks and all sorts of stuff. You know out there

pick up a couple of these items for me that are mine is stored over there and he does this Individual items is blasting caps and nothing illegal and yet. He was found guilty of possession of but fire are illegal. Firearm position never charged with it. It came back and he was found in should of everything, but still seven to fifty seven months in prison. For a crime that it was ever charged with. That is unique in the annals of american law. Now you think that you would get paid minimum wage for every hour we spend in prison after being found innocent and a letter of apology. This did order the appeals court. The court refuses he has Isaiah

This error that we don't care. We just let it slide, which isn't very sensitive cep sort of work legal system where people could be found guilty of crimes have never been charged with, but it happened absolutely positively. Dow, of course, Peggy. Actually did have very direct involvement. It is a crime to have erotic dreams about murdering someone or listening to them, but knowing that you delivering a mail bomb, bad school. Ability for sure- and she knew. She knew exactly what she was delivering. She knew what it was supposed to accomplish and she thought it was absolutely wonderful idea what was Craig's rule in the bomb making and delivery

Okay, I got refresh my memory year of being spent more than a week or two since, since I wrote the wrote the book, But he he gonna cooperate. I believe the other, the other brother, but. He came up with a brilliant idea, he ran away, yeah, IRAN away from alaska- and you know it's it's It is. It is United States someone and is involved in murder, heinous another heinous crime without exception. Square GO run away too. Can you guess LAS Vegas Nevada. For some reason, I believe that if you go to LAS Vegas, no one will find you. That's not true

As a matter of fact, following some murders where the person vantages then over there looking for, they will send detectives first and foremost to last here's Nevada 'cause, they know people think they can go to LAS Vegas. In that we found is not that big city for Heaven, sakes. Serial killers will travel cross country to go to LAS Vegas to get caught and peep are so big they can take out. Fit money where counterfeit money orders to LAS Vegas had known as good a notice that really realizing that the United States secret service has with your biggest office in love. Nevada law enforcement, They may have a yeah IQ cap at some local departments, but when it comes to federal agents, you're talking about some pretty smart people, Anyway, he runs up, not to LAS Vegas but too

LOS Angeles, and this is what again. It gets very strange. This is like having exactly right out of a movie. He it calls back home to his the wife or girlfriend whenever she is yeah Ann says: here's a ten thousand dollars reward for his capture, but I want you to get the reward so turn me in and and get and get the money while She keeps him on the phone long enough for them to trace the call, but they trace it to the Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood. Ca, which is Close to Grauman's chinese theater's by the and there's a movie being. At the Roosevelt. At that time they in

technical advisor. The motion picture, happens to be good buddies with the real law enforcement officer, who comes crashing in to arrest a kid who's calling from the phone booth, but they have to as soon the movie set to get to him. And the advisor on the movie thinks is a practical joke. If you really like their food, go to Strawn. To arrest somebody and that's the kid the phone booth. So It was a very, very straight and seen as you could imagine now was what March 12th, I guess well, that's when called into test of his role, but they know they didn't arrest him right away and they had no rest him until he was done down here in Hollywood. In fact, none of

people were arrested. Now you might say why weren't there arrested well couple reasons. They wanted to keep their options open on who all was involved in this conspiracy, there was a conspiracy not like some of the ones that people make up. Well, this was a real one and we wish you all were involved also investing visions of this nature are whore. Finally buying Lee expensive cost of fortune. Who is going to pick up the tab for this, the we should chugiak the please send logs boyfriend Anchorage or the Phaedra government. Well, who is who's going to pay for everything that this is a big issue, as I'm sure you recall The reason why you're wonderful serial killer up there in Vancouver the guy with Log Hog, farm victim, yes

and the reason they didn't go after him, even though they knew it was Yeah man he knew it was going on was because, while they had three reasons they said well, we can't afford it. We do you know what we're doing is number three and were I trained in doing this so we'll let it slide. Who cares? people get murdered where we just can't afford this will. Finally, I believe the wise, Indian government coughed up some cosmic cash to pay for the investigation there similar to what happened to Spokane with the investigation, Spokane Serial killer was dragged on a long we're practically the reruns of I love Lucy millions millions of dollars. Finally, the US government had come up with eight million dollars. I believe to pay the expenses of homicide task force, people stop and realize how expensive these coordinated vet locations are

there was an agreement made between the feds, the federal age. And the local investigators, They will all work together, but the FED it would handle the actual arrests, secure is set for zero. These several federal agencies involved, as you mention and they didn't really come out and arrest anybody Orp Or- charges until they had all their proverbial culprits together and there was a change of venue. I mean I I can certainly understand that is how long the world are guys doing. Girls and men and women with a fair trial when this is been extensively covered in media. Everybody I mean. Even I mean it always stuns me. Of course it's a little different there in Canada were not, We'll talk about it on going case, Telus resolved

where here in the USA just go on Facebook and listen to these people with absolutely no knowledge of anything. I know so and so's guilty. I know so either way we won't know what they did. It. Well, how do they know they did it? They haven't seen it all they know is they saw the per. His name, you know as being a suspect or not big Suspect though I know who did it I know, did we will never get on a jury, of course, with that attitude, but- I mean people do when the conclusion jumping competition in the twenty twenty Olympics every time there's a high profile case. Well, so they moved it. Think of a moved it out of Alaska down San Francisco. Try to get impartial jury which is which can be difficult in any situation, was a great deal of coverage dispense best. If you have someone,

because I think it was for a man which charge the president added states referred. Is being guilty before the trial, that that was a little much If they understand what I mean, so we got a change of venue, the wound up, of course, everybody being found guilty of something and even peep, who were found innocent went to prison, which is as always to spin on american justice. Let this is an opportunity for just for a second we're going to talk about that trial, because there's some dramatic evidence put on the big: screen at that trial. Again. Another very movie, esque scene will stop for a second to talk about our sponsor this program. Blue apron, blue apron, delivers farm, fresh ingredients and step by step recipes to your door

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Mangled corpse and her melted face. And it was so horrifying and graphic that one of the jurors had to be restrained, shades of actually vomiting right there in the courtroom, yeah. You have, I was old, yes, you. You have also that that his behavior in a well actually will talk with Doug Gustafson. We got to go back a little bit to both of these people's behavior Doug, Gustafson and later Raymond Chili SME. Highly chili didn't have the smile on his face when he went to trial, but let's first talk about Doug Gustus in readily admits what he Oh yeah tell us why why you think he did that and what exactly did he say about that? Well, he said that if p I would have followed his directions if he would have done things the way he wanted done

David and Michelle would be alive today. He only wanted to kill a little George. Anne and he has no plans to send more bombs. I was proud of the work he did in getting that mail bomb ready, an instructing piggy uh he felt bad, that that David was killed and he felt bad that Michelle had her face. Melted her eyes filled with glass that wasn't are the plan knows play on the way he wanted was George. His killed George did get kills and these two in his mind innocent people, did. He said he felt really bad about that. So, as you may know, this bizarre twist to the tale here is that Doug Gusterson. Teamed up with Michelle. To sue the state for negligence in not stop

the mail bomb right credible, Felt sorry for her and he wanted to cost the state a lot of money. But the adding more tragedy to this story it sure is with offered her. A settlement, but I think there was two million dollars. She didn't feel. That was enough and I think, He was right. But when they went to court. There was judgments against the state gem. Yes, she against chile judgements against just gases and judge very If Ryan, who was I wonder, while they all he wound up at all this and that The state was only responsible for twelve percent of the total cost, which came out by the time he got done with the legal fees and one thing and another she got less. Go to two million. She would have got if you just take the deal with the insurance company, so she

I broke down in tears right there in the cold room when there, even though she fine she didn't want anything, and that was even more tragic. You was there's one thing and something else. Uh there Douglas and said he wanted to cast them millions of dollars, and so the state added yeah Gus is in Jillian Ryan as Co. Defendants. To share the cost show: does she win her case? Well, she did. They didn't have any money. Of course but meant she got. Is my father say I Cox Balavan. He didn't get anything. Next to nothing yeah. You talk about July 15th, ninety two, because the Department of Justice decides to go for the death penalty for Raymond Chili and July fifteen, one thousand nine hundred and ninety two Craig pleads guilty Craig us in please guilty to mailing the bomb or being involved with the bomb.

And testifies against Ryan and Raymond Chili, and for this deals he gets twenty two one slash two years. You talk about also jailhouse informants and their importance in this What oh yeah we have informants at the prosecution dragged out, prison, informing so quickly they couldn't lie straight in bed these guys would change his stories with this concern and. Well, never confronted with their dishonesty didn't seem to bother him. One of testified under that he was involved in activity of the simple fact check. Show that you It is even there at the time, and so they, you know the jail out. Some form insert not exactly reliable witnesses, but I think what

But really did it was the the pictures which I would imagine the defense probably objected. Prosecution, showing those pictures, as it have so much of an emotional impact, but the next to the matter we're still fairly clear. I one error that prosecutors make I've noticed it I'm sure they notice it too, or maybe they is it true crime writers. Maybe we the blessing of being. So a little farther removed sense of perspective. Is going for. The typical one is going for a common scheme or plan when it isn't that blows up in their face or, Trotting out unreliable witnesses, paid informer and people that know over I say to them whatsoever this, instead of bolstering the prosecution's case, makes them look like they're, desperate by bringing

all sorts of people who lie on the witness, stand and blatantly so I don't think, that's ever a good idea, if your case, strong enough. If so, I'd better do you think you could win it. This is, I don't know what up in Canada but the United States, it's not so much the system of true just in most cases is, can we win it, whether the versus is guilty or not. Can we win it and that becomes a contest? I think we can win this one. Not they are very. That's all the prosecutors. People think is that, because it uses job to price you people is not this to prosecute justice to get just as that of the person is not the one. It is a doesn't matter if you can build. The case is true. This is so it's it's really a difficult situation, I'm sure you're, aware of the the one in

I had the woman on my show too. Maybe you add on as well. She wrote Boo about a case in San Diego, where the woman was convicted of poisoning her husband with arsenic and then you he's only insurance by to get a boob job and having, that was ever marine in San Diego. Well, not every, but every other she was innocent. But they found her guilty because they were able to push this thing through with enough smoke and mirrors and they want it on appeal. However, do you are sick evidence? Experts came forward and said I told him she didn't do it. They said they could win it anyway. They'd be true crime book heroes. First, you know and this woman away fine, it was allowed that a woman could sue the San Diego prosecutors for twelve million dollars, which she did plus her heart so

you know some of the desire to be partially famous in a true crime book by being the the winning pro executor. If you're prosecuting people who who didn't do it. There's no glory there. You write in the book, though, that Peggy and Craig Gustafson both were testified at trial. Against Raymond Chili in Ryan, and then Craig is now has an assumed identity and and is in witness protection in prison. So there was, clearly whether they gave him that evidence or he was gave them the evidence that they needed for the price fusion, and when you talk about again- and I get another movie as seen in this- is that

Raymond Chili, chilies response when he gets sentenced, tell us about what happens at the trial in terms of guilt or innocence, and then what does Raymond Chili? Do? in response to the sentence. Well, I was there in person for the sentencing. I flew up to Alaska and working on the book back. Then you know twenty some years ago, as guest of the US postal inspectors who Again, I cannot compliment enough on how great they were the main may continue to be. I got my ever get in trouble, I'll call them yeah help you out I didn't talk about you and I was there when Michelle gave her victims impact statement, and she just gave

gave him hell. I mean how they destroyed her life, their face her vision or future her husband her home. And Raymond laughed you just smile you'll, laughed Well, I'm the nervous laugh once you got to be amused about, is going to be get off you know these uh already in prison for murder. What else are they going to do to him sure how like there was a counterfeiting case that I was informed about what they were looking for this? master counterfeiter and if only found him in prison. We're going do is send him home. What are you doing? The criminal you catch is already imprisoned and you talk about Peggy sentence. Twenty four years and four Months, one of his husband, pardon

Wait. We should she out now. Is it been? twenty four years in six months could be it is yes. Yes, it is yeah she's, probably working at a Walmart. Well, her husband Dennis didn't have anything to do this city, no yeah, that's another to do it. He was disgusted by the entire concept. I mean you know it's this upsetting and uh Have your spouse, that may be having an affair with the local grocery clerk of the pool boy 'cause. I don't have who boys, poison, Alaska and I boys freezes over, but to find out that your wife was Joe seriously committing murder. It is disgusting. I in alaskan History Alaska, going to be amused by that at all I mean he he announced He was getting a divorce. He didn't want to stay married to her, how he did

want to be faithful to her, for twenty four years and six months while she languished in prison. The horrible murder. That's she take place, get a weight on her I mean. I don't know how much it would have weighed on her for the killing of the person she wanted to kill, which was George. Contemporary the only I was the ethics. Practically. This whole story said maybe, for Craig and Joseph who is innocent of everything and yet did all the time in prison, the maybe great told me that he saw her after she. Been imprisoned awhile and he could It was eating her alive. You know the so what she had done, the pain and suffering, death and destruction it that she had participated in, I'm sure, had a negative effect on our self image. You know it's hard to think well of yourself

that she accidentally fell into it like a clean kid into a coal chute. She joyously participated it. What she envisioned as the the buy murder of of search car when instead It was a horrifying murder of George's Father in the complete disfiguration of his stepmother did Michelle was Michelle present when they flash the photo of her wedding and and of her of the crime scene. Was she there to witness that? I don't know the answer to that. One again, I was not in the courtroom or the trial. I was only there for the sentencing and leave it. Impact statement. But I can't imagine that she, so there should be. Yeah. I can't imagine that I, if I was her, I wouldn't want to see that she was

she could see anything. I should mostly blind you still like glass in her eyes. Long after this it happened. Is she standing in the kitchen when is Explosion went It was amazing that she was able to to say Dar Gustafson it all, for that? Shane knew who would have been behind it? that's how much Doug hated her stepson, but I mean there was. Firstly, nothing but her face was gone. She was blind. Your eardrums exploded really speak yeah. And you you saw, she was she there was he there at the sentencing? Obviously she was made in fact statement yeah, obviously yeah the whole thing was was fairly horrible and you know dark glasses and. Face kind of covered, I mean yeah, I mean: what do you do in that situation? Who is too nope

all the voronezh who so horribly disfigured? I mean. Definitely I mean I've got a friend of mine who was held captive by some guys that she, you don't better but was drunk and disorderly. He Peter face in. At a ten thousand dollars worth of. Surgery on her face to reconstruct it- and I saw her the day after she got away this guy and she just been beaten and what her face. Look like that and and and the surgery and now it's that looks better than she did before and with give her a nice to face now the face she started with- I can't relate to the emotional despair that someone could go through that kind of terrible situation. They should be on my main,

I can sympathize but again, sympathizers, can't imagine that they would know how awful that would be yeah. Well, you talked about Michelle's bills at that time that he related by the time of that civil trial at four hundred thousand, so over and over four hundred thousand dollars medical expenses kredible, and that was what nineteen ninety two thousand and eighteen dollars and it's you know well over a million one million and a half. Well what it seemed is that, even though the four hundred thousand they were not ending, I mean there was more surgeries to go. There was more work: oh yeah, almost yeah, I was at the disappointment with the set went to the settlement, will follow. You won the case and

you get less than what we offered you in the first place. Yeah, it's incredible yeah! You you talk about how big the media response was to this, how far reaching it was in terms of being interested in the story. How did they portray this story and just tell us a little bit more, but the media and its response? Well, you gotta figure what what is the pop you pictures of Alaska anywhere else and how many media outlets do they have what got. The the Anchorage newspaper. But I got the chuchiak shopping news you get to your network affiliates and what I was up there. I think the the biggest news was if there was a bear walks into Jc Penney's So that's one thing that surprised me so much about Anchorage is that it's smaller Spokane WA. Now I weigh

the prosecutors office. They were really great to meeting with the FED prosecutor there and that I got my rental car and I was driving to the home of one of US postal inspectors and I gotta tell you it was summertime at it was gorge push up there and the sun never said it always looked like it was dusk. The sun went down it didn't go down, is like seven hundred o'clock at night dusk, my favorite time of day, all night and they've, been out hunting and they were making reindeer meatballs as a matter of There was no deer in Alaska is just reindeer. Ok, anyway. So I to drive to this guys house I kind of space. Next, I do I'm the middle of nowhere. Bamboo set a time that fast

with a capital, a city, it's gonna have some streets to look at that yeah, it's a small town and everything else is smaller. So when you've got a major story like this, it's saturates, everything: it, saturates, every radio broadcast every tv broadcast. If repair. Remember the newspaper and individuals, conversations and majority of those conversations recorded with federal wire taps more help. You do single out and the Us Postal Service Service inspection services really happy to be able to to work. With you to highlight the work that they did do and it was impressive, as you say, the budget that they have in the technology that is available to them, but also

as a investigative arm of the government, and I didn't realize their importance and as a result, what they have in place in case they need the investigative services of the postal team, so hence this task force was put together with a lot of people, a lot of investigators and uh a lot of emphasis and no constraints in terms of budget. For this did they know. There's I mean this was this was top priority and everybody cooperated with everybody else, so we're in the game playing power trips. You know boundaries and barriers in they gave the it was a of the year award to the chief of police of anchorage as part of the federal team, because it was so cooperative I mean that's the kind of dedication you had this car,

that was so horrific and so reading that I mean his stamp think about it. We all go to pick up our mail everyday and shuffle through the bills in the junk mail and took part to think about it. We don't think about someone. Destroying our home, murdering our wives, husbands, children, whatever at the mail, and so they it over one of the one you and United States. Were you put the letter in the mailbox to go out it is no longer your property. It then becomes the property of the United States government until it's delivered and so someone's messing with it. He had big problems and the nexus. I wanted to do as opposed to spectrum we ought to which was absolutely fascinating, but no publisher want to pick No ones murdered was a.

And I'll. Just take a minute to tell this. I think you'll find it interesting. As a journalist, a lady writes a letter to the postal inspector, This is his boy, I'm really mad. I paid twelve dollars the class. Supplied ads in the paper to uh I figure out my winning lottery numbers It's going to get. You know, doctor spender, X, lottery, you know whatever, but I'd never got it well, it's a violation of postal law, no selling how to win the lottery but not your charges doing twelve bucks, you better deliver it sure and so notice that the Po Box that you were supposed to mail was there's some other ads as well, and, as you may know, it's against the law in America to buy tickets is in foreign lotteries. If you're having a lottery in Canada, America, citizens, we can't buy Canadian Lotto ticket, no well

who's, this guy, who would target widowers and widows who had just lost their spouse and we print them on the phone and convinced him to buy foreign lottery tickets and then tell them that they'd won it wanted to reinvest the money and more tickets, and I'm sending you a form to sign to make that easy for you and the form was uh power of attorney over all their bank accounts and he looked of a recent they ever had. How, ah and uh do is doing it out of her Canada. Where was a misdemeanor well and they finally finally got this guy. It was in India or something he had. Several million dollars stashed in Seattle Bank they're able to seize that, but his total punishment for this most heartless of crimes which he,

make millions and millions of dollars looting these. Please only people's life savings is he did. I think it was eighteen months, minimum security in federal prison and it would release, it had millions stashed all over the world. The only way we're getting. It was civil judgments against him by Ireland. I think what, after thirty three million UK would after him, for I think, an equal amount, whether they got it or not. I don't know heartless. Several would be to do that and he wasn't doing it alone. He had another woman, another guy working with him be friending. These lonely sad people who just lost her husband or wife and robbing him of everything sure well it's it's. This example of peep taking advantage of the very the most vulnerable, and we see that within these mer for cases all the time I mean there

that the world, so they take it out on somebody else that has been victimized by right yeah, we say the people is like boys, a friend of I'd rather get campaign. You know stop bowing as it does not care to be told to stop bullying who will stop at both go care because all boys are afraid it's a fear response. They were bullied, they were abused and when they she's someone week, it triggers and fear response they were weak and just that's the thing. If they're asking for it, you see that person was asking for it, because that's what they were told it being weak is asking for it. Yeah, it's a tragic situation. Until we stop the whole thing of using each other will have boys yeah was interesting in this book. Where is in a full length book, we

get a little bit more of I'm just curious because we we never mentioned. There was a person named Robert Chamberlain. Was the person driving the truck that passed, ramen, Chili Ann Gust of sin, and they decided he had cut them off, so Jeffrey Kane we mentioned was the passengers was shot in. The back of the head we never really you don't mentioned, but it be very interesting to know the fate of Rob chamberlain right what he felt it would be. You are absolutely correct if it been a. How large are the Pacific it I'm sorry if it is larger book. That it is available as an audiobook stand alone and Available in print in the book masses of true crime edited by our flowers, I will to follow up on that for sure there be a lot more about the investigation I could put it. I want to put in a picture of the

the agent to listen to all the hours of the tapes right right and he said no, because he works undercover. Hello really wow and they didn't want his picture hold on second thought answer: this call cause the theme of true crime uncensored. So ready to save the state. Let's talk about your incredible true crime. Podcast, as I. Did? Is a strange thing. You've been doing these podcasts who've, you are much hip too uh huh for two hundred I I ever was in terms of how That Arias, I don't ever call you up- is it. How do I get this thing on Itunes. I couldn't figure it out.

Along came Anchor FM. Who did what These other places or blog talk, didn't do, and that is take care of all of that their little hearts, I do my show, which is you alive, saturdays at two o'clock. Fuck on outlaw radio live dot, com and Douglas Shearer is been record for me every week for a couple of years. Although I think this coming week, this is his last lasted recorded. Someone else I simply uploaded to anchor at them and upload it to every podcast platform that exists. Itunes. Google play this one that one I don't have to mess with it, which is was driving me nuts, so It's interesting to look at the listenership just on the podcast of the live audience, because that's really hard to

we'd. We, our old server, that they will blow up got to two hundred and fifty thousand sell them to. We are going to server on that, but since it up on. I itunes and those other stuff hi I watch every week. It just goes higher and higher and higher and higher, and was it interesting to me, is what episodes get the largest number of downloads and Ironically, the person who is calling me just now was Leonard Buechele, who who former drug smuggler? Who now produces the real recovery? Film festivals, he founded writers and treatment, which is similar to music, cares of the faster. It is a nonprofit with Robert Downey to provide financial aid and treatment to people working in the writing and publishing industry who may have problems with drug alcohol or

other behavioral problems, and they don't have insurance any produces the experience, strength and hope awards, and we did an interview with him. A year ago November, at October November, but upcoming real recovery, film Festival and. With everything else, that's ill remains our most downloaded episode, interesting yeah. May I just because it says draw, smuggler retired, I think people want to hear about drugs, but yeah, but some and of course we have our friend punch probably Saddam Arabic, the world. Second greatest diamond thief. Father's number one 'cause his dad never got caught and never went to prison. He unfortunately or fortunately did get caught

This email is well. How did he get caught? We got caught twice once because he made a mistake and the second time, because someone in same building as the diamond heist is taking place, it was, I could still manufacturing place no, not a private home in never did that it was like a commercial place, but there are apartments in the same buildings and this guy went nuts and decapitated, the family cat, the family, Perraki and the family father into his father's head out in the middle of the street at homicide trying to catch this guy in the process of trying catch him. They run in where and his buddy are doing this. All ten million dollar diamond heist. They go a bit weird to deter credit, but as a places will be joined they try to pull out then so, so you never know weird things going to happen. You know

This is Stanley Kramer, Cooper just too confused Kramer. Of the killing sure Sterling Hayden. No, it's a it's a heist movie, it's a racetrack robbery and they plan it down to the last little detail and things. Sixteen should go wrong. It doesn't take much. No, And a great great film, if you get a chance to watch it, he couldn't remake it. Because the way pictures aren't getting on airplanes. You can't just go with me: grab a ticket get all right nice. That was back. The old days when it was still like America in America every week, you and How we're looking at is producer and manager how we're lucky this have and before that, when I was had great under being on the show the first time with Don Waldman, you have, you have almost a similar format,

true murder in that you have live interviews, and so you can you get someone fascinate and stuff when it's live, and it's not edited, and it's not a couple guys just sitting around talking about a crime you're talking to the people very much like I do the peak That are the authorities that the authors, the people that were there, the people that are the integral part of the story, many people tackle the criminals. Cigarette. We had an, we had, guy So that's actually the punch, the diamond high sky introduced me to in Florida who is in the russian MOB Ann, and we got along famously over dinner. You come on, my show it I think the first person they have it so hard for the russian mob. You know, some things it would get him killed, but the things he would like about like how, we round up of the russian MOB and why he was in it everything else with a cool. You know

yeah. We never know what things are going to come your way and oh, we will run chipset. Who also does a true crime, show absolutely he was already says breaking in voice. Where is he well should about his show? And why should about yours? Is you guys? Don't really do a true crime. Show you, the comedy, show that happens to be about through crime. Well is partially wait for the first five minutes, maybe a little later, but we get in some serious stuff. You know originator, though of adding some levity to to murder, basically to true crime and and some of your guests are humorous, but Howard and yourself and on the great degree, it's a fun show it's. It's got levity where you wouldn't expect, and now it seems like a lot of the podcast. That's the format so you're in many ways

The originator are well. I've been doing this show for over ten years. Bonnie, Rait nah, it internet years ago, like dog, here's it's a long time to have a every Saturday, two o'clock, every time, I'll already alive dot com for over ten years. And the reason why to be in a true crime, true crime show was my brilliant idea: Matt Allen, Lou used to work with me, K, Kyyx, Seattle should Burroughs. Why don't you do a show and I'll already, let's do an hour before main his the video. What you want to do well one of our world. The LL radio Lister said well, you right through crime books want to do true crime show, but you want. By myself. 'cause I like having someone to bounce things off of and right in front of me was Don Woldman

family law attorney, but he had brilliant man with great experience. Absolutely- and I said, hey you wanna do it through answers. I love to do a true crime show and we had the best time doing it. We really did and he had to take a hiatus. There's some legal obligations in Howard stepped into fill in for a minute after about a year or so done said. I I feel bad. If I come back, if I don't want to take Howard out of the chair because he's you know he's in there now, but Don come back and fill it or you come back and join us on occasion and it the course when he died. So suddenly we were all just completely shocked a great guy who had a joy to work with and I'll be putting a lot of the the old Don Woldman shows up on the the Itunes everywhere, so people can enjoy that I still, I think one of

both emotionally fucking show, as I ever participated in was the first one you did about the shell. We dance murders. That was so shocking with that said, you I'm not just you know, blowing smoke here that one of the most gripping true crime looks of Everett and the guy is so twisted would mess with your head and he would have to mess with your head to deal with that guy. Well, absolute it is you know to why in on coming from you, it's it's great praise, because I all I really did was inspired by authors. Like yourself, I was able to ask the questions I I did read books like broken doll and I've read books from you

three years, true crime, classics, and from that you get an understanding of that that psychopathic mind so. Certainly, I'd read some of these things coming to life. Talking to this guy that from these true crime books these classics, I could stand the kind if mind that this guy, this person was a he was influenced by the kinds of murderers and killers that you and other related. Although we will kill canadian history, he is Golly's got some problem, but that was his goal. Yes, his goal was she's. He was very competitive. Yeah he certainly was. I mean it was just shocking to me the things he is like I A great idea what I'll do to this corpse? I mean that guy was words, can't describe him. You did fucking child job with it

I was unnerved enough. When I went and spoke to Rhonda Glover. In prison of fatal beauty. And when I came out of there and I got back in the car in Texas, my or is to worry dad, she they come out of their income get she's going to be in there for another sixty years or something I didn't realize it was so obvious that it affected me that what I came out of the prison She could tell that I was bothered but you're right. You know when you know we're dealing cycle path, which is a step beyond sociopaths your deal with people that cannot see beyond themselves. They are the center of the universe and reality is at their whim that they can make up anything say anything and it's just like their greeting the universe as they go along an faq that information

have little or no important to them whatsoever and do not have the ability to feel the pain of others in a psychologically or emotionally, and it doesn't matter carve a turkey carver person same difference. Well, I think I'm kidding about this. There is a support website for sociopaths. That, I can recall, was called sociopaths out award or something like that. But it's actually Maintained by sociopaths is a public service for other socio path and they didn't like a short story. I wrote code giving shoulder for the standpoint of the cycle path actually, and they didn't like it, but that ok, I can't please everybody can't please every sociopath, but there was of intra single, like letters to the editor statements in there is that dollars is one social passes

ok, everything to say about this is true. We only think of, but ourselves we're incapable of thinking about anybody else, and so I realize that if I do all these really sick things that other sociopaths do and rip people are good. It's not said gee. I don't want to cause other people. Problems you problems and I'm the only person is important to Maine and because I don't want to have problems going to prison or being you know, did poorly. I am not going to do that stuff now not doing it stop behaving because he as a moral code that says I care about others and don't want to hurt him. It's I care about me and me alone, and if I do these things I'll be unhappy. So it is it if you get to a sociopath or psychopath before the age of fourteen you could teach him that

once again the system is really hard really. I I don't. I don't Oh, I know that that Peter Vronsky of just recently described in his book that the cycle path kens intellectually understand the feeling that he say. Post to have but yeah right, not feel it physically or psychologically, but he understands it. So the danger is: is that whether he's saying he was, you know, maybe uh? used when he was a child. There's always an excuse. There's always a blame. There's always that Narcisse like focus that You know they even want to be liked and loved by the. So we never really know what the truth is with the cycle paths, even when they are being candid and because they can to fool, want to play

think that there are smarter at every stage of their life. So it's really a liberal bent themselves. First set of the cycle. Matters of become their own. A defense attorney hi, absolutely. Yeah or they'll take the stand when they shouldn't oh yeah yeah Well, that's like the situation we have down here in the United States right now on or whether our current president, she I do uh uh and uh interview with would investigating committee, at even his own attorney said. Well, we don't want it a perjury traps. Perjury is lying. Your sure is I get a gorging that the individual has a mark proclivity for making things up, and you can't do that with your being interviewed by the FBI is a crime and if you you just can't

You know, is your nature. If you can't resist it, you know you're in big big trouble, absolutely yeah. No, he he would be I'll advised, as most people are to let their attorney handle things. Because I mean even if the person is it is it of any wrongdoing if their natural Tennessee is just to make stuff up on the fly. This is going to hurt him. Yeah well, that was you just don't do that yeah. That was a gas of the happy face killer. There was a woman. First came forward and then said it was her and her husband and the courts were so convinced because she was Fluka Lee right on on some things that she should have known and she was confessed and did confession was. Can Convicted of a murder that the happy face, killer, killer, Jespersen committed.

Then bizarrely, his lawyer said that's the only time I ever had to fight to prove that my client was city of a crime, yeah no kidding Well, then the design. Where the we got go to tell me more about a delicious recipe. I know. No, I don't think so oh, I like that last one I was baby, but that Situation where thirty here in the US new, that his client intentionally set an innocent person prison for a crime that he did and he thought it was hysterically funny while there you not allow his attorney to let anybody know that an innocent person prison all these years until he died. If he died incredible well, like

criminals are some people without any moral or ethical standards or. See that's always the problem is, I assume people have at least some standards similar to to mind of them. I know that exalted Billy through you know, seem fairly racial to me. The the line that from the big chill. You know just vacations uh, the most important thing more important justifications are more important than sex aft. Well, can you go a week without a justification? Well, We talk about the courts. If you talk about the courts, though, and you talk about a prosecuting- you write about this and you are a journalist, it's fair and balanced. You say sometimes a prosecutor just wants to win so why wouldn't everyone why, when everyone- and you know, go by those standards? Well, that's not what they take an oath to do.

Sure. Well is it in there they get elected. They run on how many convictions they got. That's really sick. I don't like that idea. You know how many times did I win. They are right or not, yeah absolutely well, it's tied in with political, unlike is tied in Seoul, heavily with politics that it's it's not it's political rather than judicial. And also you do have problems inherent right with that system. We have a. We have a court system in the United States. We don't have a justice system. Yeah well done Now Canada has different problems but serious serious problems. A liberal I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about the Alaska Mailbox conspiracy. And we have you back pretty absolutely. I just wanted to mention again. This is originally from

masters of true crime. Chilling stories of murder in the macabre edited by our flowers in your story is in that end, but now is available as a standalone audio book an and available everywhere. I guess tell us a little bit about where we might be able to. It was uh and by listen up, audiobooks dot com be get a direct from them or, if you go to audible and you don't have a membership. Yet, did you sign up? You could get that one for free choose, a heck of a deal, Mama mom, said, kill is also now available as an audiobook for the first time and it just came out. Did audiobook and you can get that free to of or it was, if you want If you don't have an account at audible, you site up, get free audio book and more than welcome to pick one of mine Absol I like that I would I enjoy listening to these. I enjoyed was into the audio book of the Alaska Mail bomb conspiracy,

a long drive, and I listen to it. The car and so I thought it. I thought the guy did a great job narrating it. So I was very very pleased. Absolutely. I will thank you. Much girl and make sure for people to remind them of true crime, uncensored every Saturday at four hundred o'clock. Is it now it's a two hundred o'clock pacific time five Park EAST Coast time at one thousand o'clock UK and it uh. If you're, where will would you be all in Pakistan, it's exam? Twelve hours later, we do have blisters in Pakistan so is it good afternoon is on at two in the morning Where did the day, after the next day or something I don't know very confusing when you cross the international Dateline's. Absolutely thank you once again, burl you have a great evening and will talk to you.

Thank you listening to this thanks a lot. Thank you. Goodnight.

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