When the muscles necessary tat. She saw him because he told us company assessing what has remembered a reporter shop. Paid insurance country, Blair Swain. I see lesbian

scooter levy for Asia in three Blabbin took on. Given us a good answer, designing a completely re imagined place to deliver. Health care is different than designing any other kind of building shore. There are blueprints concrete steel and glass, but there is also something more important than any, or even all, of those there's the patient, the one for whom all one hundred and sixty seven new exam rooms, high tech, cancer treatments, acres of green space were built in the first place at ten medicine Radner. We believe and treating patients as individuals, focusing all our efforts on each and every person who comes through our doors. The new pen medicine renders now here comprehensive, multi, specialty and write down the street and is just one more reason why your life is

ten medicine discover more at pen, medicine, dot, Org, Slash, Radner. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and Arthur Dan Zawoiski good evening growing up on Cape COD in the nineteen Sixties lies a robin, was a lonely, little girl

summers, while her mother work days in a local, motel and dance most nights in the province, towns bars her baby sitter, the kind handsome handy and at the motel, where mother worked took her in her sister on adventures. In his truck he bought them popsicles and together they visited his secret garden in the Truro Woods. The lies. He was one of the few kind and understanding adults in her life. Everyone thought he was just a great guy, but there was one thing she didn't know: their baby sitter was a serial killer and some of its victims were buried in pieces right there in his garden. In the woods, though, Tony cost us some case made screaming headlines in nineteen, sixty nine and beyond lies. I never made the connection between a friendly baby. Sitter and the infamous killer of numerous women, including for in Massachusetts until decades later haunted by night

Harrison horrified by what she learned lies. I became obsessed with the case Now she and co writer Jennifer Jordan revealed a chilling, an unforgettable, true story of a charming, but brutal psychopath the eyes of a young girl who once called them her friend the book to repeating this evening is the baby sitter, my summers with a serial killer with my special guess, authors and journalists lies a Rodman and Jennifer Jordan. Welcome to the programme, and thank you so much for this interview. Lies, Rodman, Jennifer, Jordan. Thank you and thank you How much of this is credible story and let's get right to this amazing story now this book is written by two authors, but you guys are long time. Friends tell us Jennifer how this book project originated.

It originated over bomb and update myself over forty years ago, when I was Percolating upon a coffee in college and through the door, came first a coffee, and then pretty Eliza asking for a cup of real coffee after you know, month of swill served in the cafeteria, and that was the beginning of a friendship. And those unlike one friendship wrath, and we would hitchhike home to my dad in Vermont than to do that Betty in Boston on weekends and we spend a summer cleaning toilet from the coast of Oregon. And yet here we are, as I say, forty three years later to us lies about this book projects and its origins who kindly

I am, I started having nightmares and two thousand and five. I was working on my thesis for my bachelors degree and I started having these dreams that were all kind of similar nature. I had an anonymous faith and during the process of working on my this is obvious, journaling and doing other things. I started writing these dreams down and I was- Always being hunted in them- and you know, just near death and I'd wake up and they really started to come faster and faster and more I went and then one night I dreamt of that. You know the same kind of dream, but I saw Tony's face and I was stunned

he'll, be back me right up against the wall in the in the motel which you read about in the baby sitter, and he back me up against the wall with a gun any put right to my forehead and so on. I woke up. I was like war. How now have a face? I need to start asking some questions until the next time I had the opportunity I took it with my mother and my aunt who for to hers my aunt and the book, and I referred to hers my aunt and life, but she was my mother's best friend and He was the one who built the Royal Coachman Motel, so I'd have them both at my house. Dinner, and I started asking them questions about Tony. What do you remember about Tony? Because I'm having

these incredible nightmares and basically they said to me. Well, we know he became a serial killer and you know it was one of those moments where everything slows down and all of a sudden starts to align. And I said, would you He became a serial killer, and so from there we went. I started researching because I couldn't let it go because now I'm saying to me Well, you know I am fearful of this. I've got this going on. Some of this might make sense. Who was this? Guy I remember as a swede guy. And how come? I didn't know that somewhere along the line, the murders that we knew had happened in province town. I didn't know one don't tell me it with him. So that is how the whole thing started in two thousand and five and from there I researched.

And rode and tried to put it away and didn't really. You know some of the one I was fine that was really ugly and I was trying to match who I knew him to be with who I was reading about him as an adult who we really was. And set out for how we got into it interesting now, Jennifer. When did you come into the process of writing this book and tell us about that? I pull the argument. Tat came into the process when why that was visiting Boston. I think maybe you thought I was visiting boss didn't sitting up on sitting on life, his couch with our toes tuck talking, as we have had been doing for thirty seven years I point- and she said now- you know have certainly nightmares, and it's crazy and I'm trying to write it down. She told me- and I said- oh, my god- I mean there's a book.

They're in the end. You know you been drawn by no even struggling to kind of get this out of you in and under the page bears the book. The baby sitter and so, in the ensuing years I was day for how the baby sitter coming. How are you doing on that? Projects can be a hell of a book? How are you doing and she would kind of put Congress to the ears bowing low level a little. I can't talk about it and eluded it's too troubling. It's taking me down dark all the rabbit halls, and I don't want to go there, I don't know how to do that. Structure and so when I got to a point in my career when I was between books than I had just ghost written a book, or actually one of the victims of the boss, the marathon farming, in that book was written in four different voices. So I knew I knew how to tackle the structure of this book. I knew that it had to be lies. Is young boy

nine ten year old boy in them more form, and I knew it also had to be in. The omniscient narrator boy and of meanwhile after he took the girls were popsicle. He went out his garden and checked on his body in the wood, and so I said, listen, let me help you with that point. Between books and lies just kind of burst into tears and said: oh, my god. I was afraid to ask you for help and And here we are in a how many years later, three or five years later incredible? Let's talk about the process itself, the investigation Adieu literally undertake, but also what source materials you used and and some of your impressions along the way in this process such a good question. I started so Started in two thousand five looking around, and you know that

that was Quite- is as well developed, then as it is now but there were some ways there appointed me in some different directions, and I I started by trying to get the trial transcript from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and after I waited for three months for them to get back to me, and they get back to me three months later and synergy. We can't so I went on my own search and I found it in an archive in another authors papers after he passed away in Kent, Ohio so that for led me down the road of this author had gotten he'd written a book. The case many many months ago, nineteen

We want, I think, is when it came out and he had sort of focused on the trial and the investigation, and you know the the truthful specifics up the case and he had a great relationship with the state police because he was an old newspaper reporter, and so I found that he had boxes of evidence from the police that were in his possession when he passed away, and so I had access to everything. I had the investigators, no books I had you know, notes scratched on pieces of paper over lunch. I had interviews with every witness and even some non witnesses as it turned out. I had all the police stuff. I had all the defence stuff because

all of Maurice Goldman, who was Tony's defence attorney. Ah, I also had all of his work papers. We had, I found personal effects of Tony's, I found Dantin gum. I found tony sunglasses so over the years and it with many at that point. So two thousand and five to probably two thousand and fourteen before I wrote a first draft. I did this research in these archives in other, in libraries, on the cape again searching newspaper microfiche, because Microfiche was still a big thing, then so that I could get all the newspaper articles and what I was trying to do with match up the man. I knew tat the man these papers were describing because they were so opposite one another, and so it took me quite a long time

Now, Lou Eliza, you were involved in this as well, and so you know Tony from a completely different perspective and, like you say, you ve, found out after all of those years that this person, that was your baby sitter, that your friend was this heinous serial killer. So what was what was the process like for you in terms of finding out information about your friend, your baby, so well that that was wasn't it was it was? It was looking through these archives and saying wow. I don't recognize this person and widen anyone. Tell me and said and I went back and I started talking to other people who were there with me at the time and try to cooperate. Some of my own memories harnessed well. I remember it this way. What do you remember just so? I could get a feel for where my own, the devil,

they have my own memories and put them up against what I was finding out about serial killer and we were you no more then one time I say more than ten times the phrase he was just a great guy. Everybody liked him the guys at the front desk all liked him my mother, my aunt and my mother certainly liked him, as We all like him and we and an eye- particularly liked his mother, so you know she was but warmer than he and around more often than he, and because my mother, I have that your difficult relationship with my mother. She was perfect. She was perfect. She's- to wrap me up in her arms and listen to me. Chatter, on an There were else, so I always remembered her as well, and so

you know. When John came on board in two thousand and eighteen to help me make this a l, a real functioning book. We worked really hard to make sure that the characters were we were portraying now so Should be Cecilia, who I just spoke about and my own mother and Tony and my on and on and on and on to make them as three dimensional as we possibly could. And and the way we did, that at least in the beginning, as Jen has said, is to to put those two voices out their up against one another and let them do there met Unum. Make their magic though, the way that history remembers Tony and the re that I remembered toning you talk about you write about tony sad and sorted history. You talk what his mother, but also his marriage,

early on to onto woman much younger avis, any talk about doktor, callous, again another important character in this, but but tell us Jennifer some of the background that you found about Tony and is and his early history right and that one of the ironies for me, as you know, as it s an investigative journalists as as a writer. The irony that Tony grew up with by all in intents and purposes, a loving nurturing woman, whom lies adored and would just even the laundry room with the failure and help with old towered by the hour and

unlike the was raised by Betty who was an abusive neglectful, mother and yet Tony became the serial killer and lies the became the generous, loving woman that she is so there for me. Looking at this and envy the juxtaposition of these two mothers and these two children were the back look at character and what happened in Tony's case, I'm not sure, we'll ever know what happened to him. You know, obviously the truth itself died with him and what Cecilia may or me, Do not have done it to him in his childhood to create a monster wheel, never know that we know a lot more than we ever did fifty years ago, certainly about mental health issues about psychopathy about what makes them

stir, and we know that Tony certainly had all the characteristic. Of a in out of a serial killer and other psychopath, but we they never know exactly what broke that psyche. What broke that that little boys Oh and you know he tried to blame it on draw his defence tried to blame it on drugs, and yet you know drugs don't make a killer, though no it was. It was for me one of the most fascinating investigations. I've ever done, leisure winning. What are your

memories of Tony we'd, just we alluded to them and we talked about them briefly. But what are some of the things we Jennifer just described them as a psychopathic killer rang? But you didn't you didn't you didn't see him is that, so what was the? What was your time with him characterized by tell us a little bit about your time with Tom okay, so my aunt tells us its story about so Tony was looking for. Work is always always work or work, and so key came to work through his mother, at the royal coachman where my mother was working and that that's the same hotel at my aunt owned and so ass. He starts,

doing his handyman work and his carpentry, and he did a lot of trash hauling back and forth, because in a motel like that, you have a ton of trash, and so the dumper arms were really frequent, sometimes twice a day. Now, by an tells a great story. She said Tony would come up the driveway either on his bicycle or in his delighted. I'm dilapidated old car that he was driving. I knew he had one pointy had a blue bonneville. You know a nineteen sixty something Bonneville homes. Ok come up. The driveway and she'd holler here comes Tony. And we'd all throw our time

Kohl's around us and out. We go and beg to go in the truck with Tony, because it was fun and he was all over the place. I mean he was so you know a joke about the fact that we probably went from every dump on the lower cape at one point or another with him. It wasn't the days when you had to have a dump pass so that you could get you can go anywhere and engine often will will tell the story about Norman Mailer, how he described province, town in those days as though the wild west of the EAST and that's exactly what it was. It was a place where people could get lost. The culture of the sixties was coming it was sort of nineteen sixties. Let it all hang out with a phrase my mother used to like to youth, and so it was a free for all,

and a kind of a wild windy sunny day sand in your face free for all and so every opportunity we got. We wanted to go with Tony because he was fun anyhow always had the radio on in though utility truck from the rural coachman? He would. He would then get in the truck. They had an old green truck and he would get in the truck and we would get in the big, but you caught the bench c in the front. You know there were no buck ladys in those days and so we'd slide in there in our bathing suits and our flops and go along for the ride, and I will say this week,

he keep pace. As is is written in the book he used to get us ice cream. There was a soda machine right, thereby where the truck pulled up we'd get a soda we'd get. He took a step for out for ice cream. Who knows what he was doing? I dont have nefarious memories of what he was doing other than empty crash, and thank God I don't- or at least I don't have any that I've uncovered, but for us it was like that cousin I used to have a female cousin. And she was a few years older than me- and I wanted to be her right- eye wandered her to hang around with her to tag along after her to do what she did listen to what she listened to and be who she was and that's how it was with him. He just was fun, and so we wanted to

He would fund, because it wasn't so fun to be hanging around the world Coachman with some adult yelling at you all day long, and we had also other babysitters at the time, and some of them are really heinous so in comparison to the heinous babies. There's when Tony would come up the driveway. We were like, let's get out of here, and we were little kids, so we just wanted to relax and be in the company of someone who wasn't screaming at us all. The time and shoes a guy and not only not screaming at you all the time, but really treating you like up here,

implementing your music memory and complementing your you know long dear legs, the end rowing in a really really looking at you and making you feel like a growing making eel like yes, some important wanted. He used to call him up in your followers kid check and life, felt, like you know, one of their kin chick in grooming, and you know to be, and so your she sat There- cod caught a blushing blushing with the attention that Tony would bestow on yeah and he didn't have a father either and it's a significant point that I remember those conversations because I when the book described amendment as a lonely, little girl, lonely in so much ass. I missed my father and

a lot of ways. He was like that he was like a father figure. He was about the same age ass, my father, maybe just a little younger. He was strapping and good, looking and kind? And so like. I imagined my father to be my absent father and Tony also didn't have a father, and I remembered those conversations it was other things that drew me initially when I realized who Tony was too. Both to me until the world are not, and then I suddenly with like MIKE look. How close this could have been this Conversation about my father, I always remembered it and I I is remembered. The kindness I thought, because of it we sort of shared that little wound, and so it was it was. It was intoxicating, to be with a guy like that who was kind to you

really I mean now. Those are the only memories I have of Tony. He took us out to those Truro word than any number of times. I I couldn't give you a number of times but I've pieced together the memories I have in the narrative, because we were That was a place. He went on a regular basis as it turns out from the research because he had his drugs stats stuff down there? He had his later on in nineteen. Sixty eight headed body stashed out there he had his weapons stashed out there. He had coffee cans buried under the ground, in fact that's where they found the gun that killed these last two women was at the base of a tree right out there and not secret garden. If you will hear-

add marijuana growing out. There wasn't much of a garden, but he thought it was, and that was another place where he and I, because my grandfather live next door to us growing up and he was a huge gardener, so some I learned, like you, learn to ride a bike before you know that you're learning, and so I I thought I here. I am aid, I'm nine. I know gardening. I can talk to Tony about gardening, because he's talking to me about gardening. Having no so when I heard what I was actually doing, the research and realizing that his garden with quite a bit different than my vegetable gardens, as their coming up in the research. My memories up against them. Search, my memories up against research and that went on for good ten year period, Jennifer We haven't mention to Lhasa talks about the charming personality that he exists

to her and everyone around her and endure small little world any use. Those skills is right. His followers there were fifteen to nineteen years old. You right tell us a little bit about this, the drug use, but also of this doctor callous and his role and just province town and serve his status among these followers right. As far as we now Tony's drug, you began With a visit to a doctor said the caliph in wealth late. You should write down the highway from from p town and he went to doktor callous. Making marriage consulting because he an Airbus in their very young and very functional. Marriage was with trying to get some help and doktor callous unbeknown. Only with the same

time doing a drug trial, research and so on and funded by the pharmaceutical company, and so he gave tony handful of a drawn out of his drawer samples, His drawer and tony- took them home and took one and the next thing Avis knew his head would in the pudding on the other on the dining room table and so that with the beginning of it and is again adviser is mentioning it or through the research and through doktor carelessly,

testimony and through different papers found in the archives. We, u can see, just this trajectory of drug use at the hands of the doktor, callous and also a doctor Hebert who is there the avuncular town doctor who were Tony's, you know gave me the harness Airbus is mother, yes, Tony's mother! No did he get her to learn it in nineteen eighteen practising grotto you most of the town right most of the clouds, so in any case, but that was the beginning of his drugs and ass, he became A young man after high school, he really just the drugs, because m you lower or even younger kids, always looking for.

Here, I'll always looking for an adult two to hang out with, if you will many homes, to jump right, many from broken homes- and you know it, as you mentioned Dan key town in a character in this book as well, and the peach out of the six. These was very dichotomy eyes by the summer and those that had do survive through the baron. Long very dark, very depressing winter so a lot of these kids grew up with too much alcohol and too much abuse Glaxo anyway, Tony like he was relies. There was just the charming older, you know hip guy, who seemed to want them hanging around him. And told he loved it. You loving the Pied piper and having this little, you know coterie of kid,

following them around, like you know the doctrine in Boston Garden and it just escalated and became caught a darker and darker as. Became darker and darker, and you know callous, was part of that, and then Avis, of course was one of those kids checks to then became his wife and beef Everything started to deem role and and collapsed on. Tell me you know I used to carry a fit the physicians desk reference. He kept it, this house and he became a guide, our pardon guess, which withdrawing our right and an end. They they started coming to him from bad overdoses or if they have trip, or you know he knew how to. If you were too far down to bring you up and if you were too far up to bring you down and it was a mini, boasted about it and

You know it's friends boasted about it too. I mean there were the drug culture that was really just beginning, both in the real world with those doctors who You know prescribing drugs. Remember the song mothers little helper, I mean that's what they did with women in those days was prescribed volume and that's what they did with Tony. And what do they just put sorry to see this as an opportunity to stop for a second for these messages, progressive presents the sounds of the over the years. Twenty nineteen and someone is waiting for the previous to start in a movie, theater ain't. You want anything popcorn, soda.

No nothing. This has been that those sounds of the broken by progressive we're drivers can still switch and save like it's twenty nineteen today, a progressive tat come progressive. Casually internet company indicates when the merciless necessary task ass. She saw him because he told us company assess what is rumoured reporting paid insurance country Blair Swain. I see lesbian,

scooter levy for Asia in three Blabbin took on. Given us a good answer sore about that. Let's talk about the timeline of Tony Costas murders. Suddenly Mountain Susan Perry, Christine and Pat and Marianne, why Scotch, whisky and Pat Wash Patricia walls? Let's first talk about how he gets the unravelling. We just mentioned that the drugs and he ended his upbeat and pipe piper persona. Now a very, very dark persona and even wiser. Here's his change and complaining and talking about all the people that right TIM and other things we're all to him. So let's talk about how we get to the murders itself and the timeline

Nineteen sixty eight in January of nineteen sixty eight I'm gonna, give you the longer version hair. He he went to hate ash worry and when he came back. Avis head, filed the final divorce papers, and you know. I mean it's an opinion on my part, but I think it was part of it because she was his lifeline. She really what she was his grounding force and and and understandably had enough, and so she said enough already and he's. Added to a down the darker path, and by may win, then the doktor doktor callous decided here

going to treat him anymore and he caught him on so does he cut off his drug supply and sit or is or is easy drug supply? Certainly, and so so he those two things I think combined to create a sort of fire storm. Then he met Sidney Mountain any matter in a bar because he was sitting in the bar because it was close to where Avis her into the house and wanted to keep an eye on her, he's going in and out of the House and Sydney was, I think, a waitress, and they struck up a friendship because, of course, Sidney had a drug problem.

And they knew other people. You know they had friends in in common and so for a short time. They were seen together quite a bit. They burglarized callouses office as pay back for him cutting Tony off and when they did that Sidney, you know, toning did the burglary Sidney drove the car, the getaway car, so to speak, and the two for them stashed all the drugs in the woods where he then, a week later after the birth. He was on the seventeenth July by the twenty fourth. She was gone and buried in those words, so they must have had some falling out over drugs or love sex or whatever they had a falling out over or he just lost his mind, but that we think is his purse victim, Sidney, Monson and, as far as Susan goes genuine to pick up the Susan, the suit time line and Christine

I know what it says. It is so funny not funny but hearing hearings you're really going through them again, then, as we did in writing a baby, Sitter Harper. These women raised is just really really they were. They were so searching for something they couldn't find and they thought they found Tony and it just okay. So so, Susan again, it's just a very very, was very, very sad lonely lost girl, alcoholic another absentee There are who, without even the fishermen, to root out the four weeks. At a time and she would see she was left in charge of, I think, tabling and you know, with barely two nicholls to rub together that she had paid and get the school so she really was looking for an escape She ran away from home a father

However, if you leave now don't come back and she ended up, what's with Tony in he was at that point, had had a construction job up and get em just South Boston, and and she thought she'd found loved away. A boyfriend bore no thirteen right and she told her girlfriend I think Tony really liked me. I think now that we ve had back he's. GonNA, really, you know he's he's gonna love me even more and Oh the last. Anyone saw There is an alive. Besides Tony afford were his heard two or three girlfriends you're heading back to town from a visiting get em. And she and Tony were standing on the on the porch of the apartment house, and you know she was kissing his neck and You know you ve got gloaming onto him cannot work. Laugh anyone saw and

murder is a particularly hard. Second. I really don't want to go anywhere on here, just because it is something that is too much to group even a serial killer audience it's just the details of murder. Are, are really either even worse than the other. In a way I live here where I live. Leave it here, listeners to go to the book and you don't have that had that darkness to them but she she was the first body that was found. In the goods. Hers was the first by the sound and we thank you, It is clear that what we think she was killed, because in part I mean other than tony psychopathy in and trying to it at, adhere to a strict cause and effect with when you're dealing.

Sociopath impossible, because we don't know what his motivation was and we don't actually understand it. Even you know as different human beings, but Chris Lean Gallant was his muse according to him, according to her that's an entirely different story, but in court, according to him, he had met up with her during that spring after he killed Sidney, Monson and he'd sort have been in touch with her on and off, but remember communication with A minimum. There were still party lines are those days, so he bade they'd, seeing each other and and broke into each other on and off when they see each other on the street? Basically, and she was involved with a married man in province, town and that married man. You know they were in an on again off again relation hum of how much of a relationship can you have with a married man so so Sidney somehow,

Christine and Tony hooked up on that labour day week before Susan Perry was killed. So in between Susan Perry, sleeping with Tony and thinking she found her prince charming and Susan Perry being killed, Tony hooked up again with Christine, and now he thinks he's gonna have a life with her he's. Gonna have her finally to himself he's got they're going to. Babies there she inspired him to work again. I mean you know. All of this crazy kind of megalomaniac grandiose things that we're gonna happen with Christine, and so that was liberty weaken and he was how to get rid of Susan Perry. So he overdosed her. We think in an effort to be with Christine and then went into

tailspin and there were a lot of accounts from other people in police reports about Antonia too, who said he lost three weeks during that time. He couldn't remember three weeks. His brother talked a lot about what a tailspin he was in at that point in time and if he had gone to Mass he had a lot of things because he knew now he'd had to victims in his pocket.

And he knew the road he was going down and don't forget, the other thing that was happening was that he was trying to read it. He knew what was happening in his brain. He knew what was happening in his mind. He was it in an attempt to understand it now he's reading books on psycho neurosis and trying to diagnose himself and what was happening to him. So there was a struggle going on inside Tony that included this proclivity for violence and fur fer. You know just horrible things and also a tony that was trying to figure out what was happening so on September, twenty fifth after he killed Susan. He ended up getting arrested and he was arrest

I think for a loud muffler wasn't a John! No! You know the rest of board, not the port of trial of Oda, what it was that right right and he went to jail and he was supposed to stay in jail so that I think it was a six month sentence and he was supposed to be in jail to March nineteen. Nineteen sixty nine, And in the meantime, while he's in jail he's writing these peppering peppering avis with letters abusive letter

And begin a really out of his mind at this point and trying to get in touch with Christine and she's, not answering him she's, not answering him she's, not answering him. He then takes the police up on also in nineteen. Sixty eight early, which I forgot to mention, was he was a stool pigeon for the place in a drug, bust and province town. So he felt like they Oda favour and I guess they must have felt that way too, because when he wrote to the sergeant, carved get me out of here. The guy did it so. On November eight, he was released and he went directly to New York to hook up with Christine Gallon.

And what about job? What about Raul matter? You talked about the guy. That was the merry guy, but what was in terms of what he said later, what was what was a communication with him and Christine, as opposed to what He was saying in terms of that they were gonna get married. So what was the right was a difference in stories rights, and this is happening Now- assume Tony gets out of jail. Tony thing he and Christine are gonna get married and dean, saying that she's gonna marry raw whose now gotten a divorce and what we know for certain. Is that Christine wrote a letter to a friend might have even been on the day. She died.

Saying I'm gonna marry Raul. Tony scares me where you type freaks me out to intense Right through it and I'm in a merry role and Next thing we know Tony's been at her apartment and he's given her three times the dose of never told that she was used to. She actually had a prescription for thirty milligrams and he gave her one hundred milligrams, and he admits this and the next thing you know she turns up debt sheet. She and engender talk about the the forensics around Christine's death. Yes, a me one of the things that I was fascinated with in in with Christine Ballade in particular, in researching reign writing the baby sitter, with how much information we had from the investigators ethics.

I'm a then contacting forensic scientists and and police officers and detected then Fifty years later, and I never asking a cop in Boston like ok. What do you think that Christine Gallant having been found face down kneeling face down in a tub when you know couple of it? is of water with cigarette burns on her body gives that sound like a suicide you you could that's how it was recorded by the by the crop. At the time and the police said to me. I know it's a little uncomfortable at meet a simple. If that is not a position, that is In any way, normal court on quotas for suicide mean a most suicides and a bathtub You feel about you only taken over doubt, but up with warm water and lonely. Think beneath the surface and right on my

And so when we were looking at it. And looking at the time line of Tony's visit to New York, he arrived by bus. On Friday afternoon, might have even been Saturday morning. I mean there's somebody different date, but even on a bus back the pizza within less than twenty four hours. He went right back, but before he went back to the turned to the bus station to go back to Peter he left Christine in the apartment. He went to get some drugs from a friend of mine in the village. The friend in the village says where's Christine and Tony said to him. Oh she's, not feeling well

don't. He got his drugs and then from the from the Billy, went back to pen station caught his back and when and left me or you know that the time will not only that, but not only Christine physical appearance to the police when they found a body in the tub but Tony's. The timeline of Tony's visit to New York are very indicative. What has happened to that? Poor girl- and you know- I spoke to the guy- who the coroner at the time, the assistant medical examiner for the state of New York at the time did the automobile away with part of Jeffrey right in there allegations heavy rain had dreams, Doktor, Michael Baden, and he became actually became the medical examiner. Now he's the medical examiner to the stars and he's in his eighties, and he did

Obviously remember this case and I didn't think that he would. But one of the things you told me, which was interesting is that when a person has a bad trip or whatever, when someone one of US They used to do, and I'm sure Tony know this was to put them in a top. Now he had remember, he had fed her more than she was used to a battle, the authorities are three times a day and he said then they they, when they're trying to bring you out of something they'll put you in a cold tub of water to train shock the system. So we I think that may have been part of it as well and when he realized he'd, given her too much and oh well, that's the way it was going to be. Maybe he was paying or back maybe she'd said to him. I'm a I'm gonna marry raw Martha and you ve got to accept this he turned her over and let her go so I'm any audio cigarette burns in her chair, that's really cigarette burns

it is very negative of bribery morning. You're, Belgium, exactly of marking your victim and kind of claiming them for ever as you will have to leave them in a way for an attorney. Is yours branding them like like a year? Let's talk about land, Patricia we'll talk about Patricia Wars and Marion. Why Saki? How does how did they get into his sites ok, so Pat Marianne or on their law also long time. Friends, too long time, friends and

they are coming to province. Town fur in arrested are an hour for the weekend and it's a winter weaken, and they just happen to have the misfortune of going to one of the few roominghouse. Is that with open at the time, because prophetstown everything shut up tight, so yours, your choices in places to stare very limited, at least at that time, not now, but then, and so they ended up at the same roominghouse is tony and when they did so now. Tony at this point in time, is looking back at the royal coachman, which is where I was, although not at this time, but that's the motel. We were all out he's working there on the construction of a new wing and

he needs any, has no wheels and he needs raw a ride to get his pay check his last paycheck because they fired him because he was no kind of he didn't show up for work. Basically, he out even erratic each other for three hours and then disappear. No one, no Newberry. So they he left a note on their door. The night before saying. Could you give me a ride to Truro and so the girls unsuspecting you know, province town once again placed a wonderful place to meet people. Hang out these two nice young women from not broken homes, now really solid backgrounds. Women not we're, not run away, not term. Nothing like that and today and that's not to say I don't mean to say that

the other women were not from solid backgrounds, are solid people, I'm just saying it with a different type of victim. He picked this time and he picked two at a time and Oh he, which is an escalation with a serial killer of they get braver and crazier and stuff better as they go along, and so they draw them out. Chirrup picked up the check, and during that trip we think somebody, shame Tony somewhere, either from having been fired from his job or who knows what it was, but they were all it also dropping lsd. We do know that during that car trip and somehow he talk them into taking them to those same Truro Woods where he took me and where he took every one else. Who would go with him. I'll, be friends went there. This was not an unknown place. This was a you know, cut

a wide open. Let's go hang out in the woods place. It used to be a lover's lane, so it's not as if it was really a secret only in Tony's, mind really, I think throughout they were getting bigger, Viruses, marijuana stash, yes exactly and then and then becoming a burial, ground, victims, enemies, craziness too, it is crazy guy, he had a secret, he had a secret, right here, so pattern: Auschwitz. I should like to do gravestone Robbins and she had done quite a few of them and she'd been two problems down before, and so we think that may have been part of the lure out there, because these words are adjacent to an old graveyard. From the beginning of the town of true, when there was an old church there, it's not there anymore, and so we think that much

you ve been part of the way he got them out there and when he did, that was the end of Pat and Marianne out. In those words on that afternoon, of genuine twenty fifth nineteen sixty nine and we don't know what the trigger was, that may hammer lies in the same escalate from one isolated girl taking on two Roma women, little college educated. They were boy they were. You know on girls weekend from Providence, Rhode, island. These are very stable girl, women, and so we believe in- and we got a sense of this in from Tony's own prison diary right at all about Mary Ann laughing at him, though we think that you know megalomaniacs, don't like to be laughed at,

Megalomaniacs, don't like to be told, perhaps come on time it's cold out here. Let's get the hell back to the car. You know we wanted, we ve gotta, bring me in Peter, relaunch should go, and so we think that that is triggered him, and we know that he killed Pat Earth and Marianne ran for her life. And then you had a gun, though he was able to kill her from a distance and just again in an hour in writing the death in the book in really having to describe them and give the reader of visual images, the panic and the nightmare of those moments for those women it

recent cap again, what I d really Curie, live in the baby sitter? What happened to his two last victims in those would on January, twenty fifth nineteen sixty mine and he had written about it extensively. So we had his notes and then we had police notes and we had autopsy reports. So we for the sake of those victims, to tell their story of this book without being too over the top a minute, with a real balancing act to take all of our sources, put them together and try and recreate it in a way that made sense for the reader and that honoured the deaths of those women. In that honoured the death, as well as not station alive and already sensational crime. I mean you know.

Whose them enough we didn't need to make it any more mawkish or any more of a tabloid reed, and advise that we had so many so many layers sources. And one of them was tony himself- gave no scores. Maybe hundreds of hours of interviews with this one man who is trying to write the book to pay, help pay for the defence and but we also have that an end. The man doing the interviewing that everything in quotes was a direct quote. I that we had to back it up. So we knew we had a lot of information that we hope makes the baby sitter very credible. We poor people who are versed in Syria

crimes, because if we say that we have a lot of the first is that I don't think a lot of other serial killers, have in their work right are details are pretty solid, They really are: let's talk about how we finally got caught and you do right about why it took so long. What's that about was theirs that jurisdictional tell us about when he gets caught. Finally, you want, I feel that one June Ah, he finally gets caught, because he I mean talk about megalomaniac blindness he takes at washes car that so we see killed Pat and Marianne in the wood, and then he looked at TAT partially. Almost.

New Volkswagen Beetle sitting out there in the woods and thank you now. Why have a good car go away and he and then he tries to hide it in Boston that doesn't work in any drives. The two Burlington Burma in that doesn't we lived in Burlington and he calls it by this time. People are calling him because he was laughing with them in car and at the roominghouse, so called are going around worse, Tony where's Tony and though he finally All the same guy, the gotten out of jail on the lack of port rap- Jimmy I'm gonna come back to pee town. I hear people are talking a lot about me. I've got a clear, my name and Jimmy needs as well. Why you come? I thought you were.

Why now? Wife? Suddenly, because Jimmy I have their car, but that was the beginning of the end comes back to town and he just held a theory, story inversions and lies, and then the great thing about the truth. You can remember that What do you remember when you start layering them, though, and then he goes, he made himself a path in the police. Patient. You sat wrung out at this point on drugs to sell you. I hate you paying you, you don't even know what he was doing quite oh then any blathers and finally, the chief of police put his hand up until these brave enough. Don't say another word until you have an attorney, because this is getting ridiculous, though that was the beginning of the unravelling some of them Tony costed and getting him arrested. But to answer your question there about why it took so long

As an, I were shocked that the p count police never talk to the true or police and the two of them never talk to the boss simply to all means jurisdiction and problems in the province. Rhode, island, police who are looking for the to women's rights, and then the state police were Massachusetts as well. Five jurisdiction, none of whom are communicating with each other I mean and eighty He went out for the car and a cop in Boston buying, hit and never report back the providence or thorough or town, and so we are looking at this. In fact, I called her friend of mine in the box and Police department. I said what do you make of it, but why didn't this guy, this police officers in Boston who is charged with finding a missing vehicle? Why didn't he?

report that he found. It is of course, a thirty years later. Refuse your shaken or had gone. There were dealt with elsewhere, went on there in that region and again you'll never know so. Many records have been burned in this case. It's just you know. But if the men and communication low bite, but not- but you know a people therapy be our way. They certainly did have you know enough, there was noticed out there, but nobody can the dot, even when the car was first I did in the woods been tomorrow the police officer, was on the same. Finding the car didn't didn't, call p town five miles and in no way so the keys, sound cop of five different jurisdictions and nineteen sixty nine.

Allowed. Tony causes remained Bree. How are you another month, another six weeks passed, those killing you. Let's talk about the very fascinating defence Costa and this attorney Goldman. I find it odd that, despite him not having any funds, the county didn't agree to pay for his defence or what does Goldman? What's this his plan to be able to get paid he's, a body of one of Tony family members, which is how we get involved, and he decides very early on in the process so tone

arraigned on the sixth of March by the twenty second Goldman has in his possession, signed, sealed and delivered the life right to Tony story and Avis story. So this is how Goldman thinks he's gonna get paid. Now he goes to the Whitney. It then went through a series of writers, all of whom eventually stepped away carbonic, being one of them hurt Vonnegut being the first one who said: ok I'll, do it, but I'm gonna get much money and Goldman said yeah, I know you're, not we're Ino, so so Savannah gets hurt. I don't need this and walked away, so there were many writers involved over a period of I don't know ten years money people trying to clean it up,

Anne and no one ever did and Goldman never got anywhere where the Angolan ever got paid. But today in today's world that would never happen. That would not be allowed. That's the biggest conflict of interests going and I think it's part of why Tony's family feels he got a you know railroaded, because things like that are just not kosher, and you know the drug defence. You know he was. He was hopped up on drugs and that's what made him do it they just he couldn't get a medical, any medical personnel to say he didn't know the difference. Right and wrong, and you know what I get that because I knew him and he did not come across at times that he was in any way.

Psychotic I mean. Certainly he was like any other normal person. Some days he was agitated, some daisy wasn't an end. I described that agitation witnessing that agitation in the book on occasion, but he wasn't he. He knew right from wrong with clear that he did, and you know knowing now what we know about sociopath. They know how they should be, and they can often create a constructive, a personality. To show you that they know how you should they think they know how you should see them and how you want to see them and that's what they show you. I mean this is such a complicated mind and it requires more study so that people dont this doesn't happen again and again and again and again- and there are people out there now studying the neural science and the brains of these people to be able to predict this behavior so that we now have another tony cost, the story or at TED Bundy. Stew.

On our hands so and there was this fact about his needed. Four minute lies a you know, handed the defense was trying to pin Turkey's behaviour on his drug use right used in it, then, and yet he never shows. I was taken up with great put in jail, in March of sixty nine and for the next. You know Five years of his life, he knew This shows a shred of withdrawal, so we rise, and I

and learn in writing the baby sitter in researching this with different neuroscientist, an addiction expert that there still call an emotional addiction, Tony with not ever physically addicted to drug. He was emotionally addicted, but he was not physically addicted and pick a sociopath Campi. They can't be rising Clia, addicted to to a substance there physically addicted to other things. And we see that in his crimes. So when he went totally took a stand in his rambling defence at the close of the trial, the prosecution team looked at each other at the table and said well, there goes there insanity defend. Tony with very coherent, very articulate, very

so again, back to this is not about drugs. This isn't whatever what ever cause Tony could become a monster. It would not the drugs for that. Hence went out the window with interesting in reading through Goldman papers. That, in this again goes back to appoint, lies was making about how it wouldn't be done, and Golden probably would have been defined if he ended but seem really look like they were trying to join up Tell me wrong. They were trying to find other potential victims it from this This does nothing women and girls at the time. From New England, but were worryin, Tony's, kill, docket, and live, and I was asking about why would they they wanting more victim and behind me answer we could come up with was it would make a better more sensational book need five victims. What enough result

they want they wanted thirteen, so they it all be put up air quote The boy there were never seen alive again women into Tony stocking you'd. You write about Avis and her testimony at this trial to which was very interests. Her behaviour as well and also throughout this book. There are instances where. His followers show up and are supportive, just tell us a little bit about these followers and havens. Testimony and her behind You know there were followers, they were friends there relatives day, he was he was beloved where he was even in the back of their mine and later they crop to this. They suspected he might be involved, they just couldn't take it on, and I think I get that till they support

hit him, they supported him outside is arraignment. There were two hundred people standing outside when he came out that day. We are with you tony thumbs up p sign and when they testified, they testified under duress They were outside the courthouse. They were in the courtroom and Avis had untrammelled thing about what a bizarre behaviour was. I know she came into the to the or I remember she came into the courtroom holding a flower. And wearing a lie, sign an knitted one. Crazy knitted vest that we all had in the beginning of the seventies Jim? What was her bought a behaviour on the stand Do you remember very yes, she was when she walked by Tony's sitting at the defence table. Here she blew Mackay,

right Tony showed the only emotion he did in the entire trial and he sat there with tears streaming down his face while EVA testified and EVA admitted later. How? Incredibly me she wasn't credibly. And she would give away as he said you do when you're nervous hurry up from the brig of lilacs to her mouth and the defence and the prosecution kept admonishing her. We can't hear you pick up and take those powers away from your mouth, and so it was a very a very bad and kind of heartbreak. See if you well. Yeah and hunger Gretta bury this very young woman, still very young mother of three and looking at the father of those three children being

pride or double murder, not only double murder, but double gruesome, horrific murder And so one can only imagine her state of mind, and knowing that, no matter what we're gonna happen, she was going to raise. Children alone, but the strong, though she I mean there, with all the bat going on in there, with also that that woman who, when the prosecutor questioned her about her sex life, would Tony in open court said I'm not going to answer. I I really appreciated that about her, that she had the presence of mind to say no, because they made a big deal out of that and they embarrassed tried to embarrass her in open court. She put them, their place and in nineteen sixty nine women didn't do that right, She all yellow, puts one to be one of the writers who was interviewing her in his place and can because

his questioning what other writers interview questioning was really any read. It now realise how that could be brought up on sexual harassment charges. He just didn't you tell us about death and tell us about the. Why don't want to go into now, but you really getting wanting to get into the we ended in the just a dirty little detail, I may hereafter they harassed right. They did. They did and I m sure she paid the price for his crimes as well. Oh, she definitely did yeah. She paid the price and I think, to a degree. She still is paying the price I do. There is bad You know? How do you move on in line with this kind of a not with this kind of?

in a red letter on your forehead due to huge history, to have right, then not even your history, history that you tried to walk away from. And never really can because it such is just family, it's your fault

Emily and it's just too big. It's just too big story. No, after all of this, you talk about his demise. There is some controversy and he is in the same. He was in the same prison as the Boston strangler outward salvo tell us about what happens. Well, what happens is is that now, though, is killed just fix the six month before Tony commit suicide and and disabled murdered. Hemming he's point blank murdered, but the police are very clear when Tony goes in about the fact that he won't last long in there, because the prison population- and I find this incredible- is conservative so and they don't like guys like Tony. So there was some concern amongst his

its defence team and amongst the police, one of whom he had actually become, cannot show me with that. He was gonna find himself having the same fate as our desalvo, and so during the time he was in jail. He sort of reverting back. You know that's when he wrote a manuscript and that's when he did what he had to do to survive and that's when he was convinced that he was gonna get out and he kept up with the appeals and this and then that- and you know, peppering his lawyers but nasty letters which didn't you know garner him any more sympathy and change, then switching up lawyers and but convinced himself that here

he was innocent and he was gonna get out and then in our boy. I think it was the end of nineteen seventy three, the beginning of nineteen, seventy four. He was reevaluated, I Bridgewater and they said you know they diagnosed him again as a sexually dangerous person that should not be released. And that you know we know very little about what happened after that. All we know is that on mother's day, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four he was found hanging in his cell. And I have always contended that megalomaniacs joking suicide, especially in Turkey's case because as lies instead, you really, he believed his own innocent people. Leave you there, and that is the victim- was a victim of bad back and that all he needed was a with a sharp lawyer to come in

and take him out about prison on a white horse he was about him. He was a victim of the victim and victims. Megalomania maniacal psychopathic people don't commit suicide, they think they are going to be rescued. They rescue Am I right around the corner and yeah? I just none of it in its money, because we asked some of his new some people but knew him if they thought committed suicide in I dont remember one of those people thing. Do I yeah. I could, I think Tony committed suicide. They all said not Tony not tony Tony didn't have the personality of suicide. He had that righteous. That self righteous indignation again the megalomaniac- and I shoot you

I'd. Never. I never believed it some degree, I really think he believed he talked himself into believing in his own innocent I mean he really had talked himself into it. Lies are after all of this? Is there any reconciliation is how do you reconcile the difference between this person? What is your conclusion as to what. Made Tony become the killers Eddie was. How do you know we were asked if Tony were still alive. What would you ask him? What question will you ask him, and that would be one of the things Tony, what happened? You know what happened to you. We watched you struggle as we reach research.

The story. What were you thinking? I dont know if he could answer it or not, because these personalities tend to get worse, not better. So the way I reconcile it is the book that I e that we wrote together. Jen About the little girl and the psychopath

and how they interacted. Em and assorted habit take away about duality of personality and the duality of life and the the idea that, where we all have a dark side and that there are is now concrete research that says that they can predict this kind of behaviour and that they may be, they can't help it. I you know, but that they can at least from perhaps prevent it, and so that's how I reconcile this. I reconcile it by saying here is a universal thread. We can all grab onto. Let's talk about mental illness a little more openly, let's stop stigmatizing people who suffer from it and, let's see, if we can

prevent people from being brutally murdered because we missed the signs over and over and over again right and an end and again you'd have to contact toys that, because we didn't have that kind of information in nineteen sixty nine. But you know what we do know it, and so that is my take away from this book is: if those kinds of conversations can happen, then it was worth every moment of research. In writing. It certainly was- and I want to thank you- both Jennifer Jordan and lies a roadmap for the baby sitter, my summers with a serial killer. Eliza is there a website did you have, and this or Facebook page for the baby. Sir, there is you can with Jenin. Ire posting individually on our individual websites on lies, Rodman, Anon, Jennifer, Jordan, why

Linda COM, Jennifer, Jordan, agenda, what your website Jennifer Jordan, dot net dot net, and then we both have Facebook pages as well under our name. So you can find it, they are, and you can also find a sound Simon and Schuster website and where both we both have babysitter pages on our individual on our individual site, Where is it right now? Absolutely, and this book is We were like you so much for coming on talking about this, which just released March. Second, the baby sitter, my summers with a serial killer lies a rod. Men and Jennifer. Jordan has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much You have a great evening and good night you to thank stand back your dad, like you good night, by.

Your home is more connected than ever so when one kid is school in the competence and the other is getting schooled, the vital country does the powerhouse officer and yours treatment of webinar for work, and the latest episode of your favorite show at the same time, your wifi needs to be able to handle it. That's why extended he never stops working to bring you faster, more reliable wifi, so you can do it all all. At the same time, extending the future of awesome learn more activity, dot com. When the master was necessary, tat ass, he saw no because he told us was company accessible Well, let's wait a moment of the bodies in abundance

huskily towards nuclear DNS insurance gone press ass. He s a sweaty grasses parliamentary Blair, Esperanto Lesbian imposes dissimilar when I saw nothing, but also in our insurance, completely at leghorn by negative everything that was said with relevant area for democracy, and they see that review urban become given anything else. If you ve been over this young gonna be set out the agenda.