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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski good evening,. From the best selling author of the vampire next door, the true story of the vampire rapist, John Crutchley Jt Hunter tells the story of a friendly baby face canadian boy next door.

Came from a loving, caring and well respected family, blessed with looks and backwoods country charm, he was popular What peers and although an accident at birth left permanent nerve damage in one of his arms, he excelled in sports, self proclaimed Diehard Calgary Flames fan. He played competitive junior hockey and competed on schools, snowboarding team any enjoy typical, simple pleasures of a boy growing up in the country, camping hunt, sing a fishing with family and friends. But he also enjoyed brutally murdering women and he become one of the youngest serial killers in canadian history. The book did: featuring this evening. Is the country boy killer, with my special gas journalist and author Jt Hunter welcome back, the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Jt Hunter. I am going to be here. Thanks for having me back on the show again,.

Thank you very much, it's my pleasure in our audiences pleasure. I'm sure this is incre little crime. That's that I had no idea about, even though I'm Canadians, let's start with setting, stages. You very masterfully doing this book and introduce the principle, officers that end up in the state a situation where they end up. Pulling over. This Gentlemen, this young man, so let's, let's go back to that small, old town in RCMP detachments in Fort Saint James and a guy named Officer Keller he's been a Conse of duty constable for over just about a year, This is a little a small logging and mining town Located on the S Eastern shore of Stuart Lake, at the end of hwy, twenty seven before we do any of that, for

international audience in american audience is not familiar with what RCMP mean in care city, police versus rural police. So tell us what the RC Np and describe this little place that we're talking about where this geographically, and then we, introduce the office, Keller and did you and then he'll. Okay, well, the RCMP that I just stand. A royal Canadian mounted police and that's the equivalent of the canadian police Forest National Police Force- and where this took place is in uh. Pretty remote area. It's in north, Central British Columbia, You logging area not not Populations, in the area and We had a chance encounters when I called in in the beginning of the book is as to how the case

came to light now. We brings us to to this. Officer Keller was been on the force for only about a year what he runs on this little one evening and tell What's how we came to be the meet up with this eventual what we find out to be very young but very prolific sir? killer. The story really begins in. It was back in November of two thousand ten so about five years ago. And Officer Keller was, driving along and uh, as I said, is remote area on Hwy, twenty seven. He was actually on his way to return something it had been left.

By someone who had been involved in an accident, a car accident. Left a bag basically and he was driving back to return this bag and he was going to be meeting up with one of his fellow She was coming the other direction on Hwy twenty seven and That officer said who who was a more experienced officer, he'd been with the the there for about four years and so There was driving along. This is at night yeah nine hundred and thirty at night, and he ended up crest. The hill on the highway, and he noticed up ahead in the distance. It turned out to be two headlights kind of bobbing up and down as if someone I was driving over rougher terrain, and he noticed the headlights were.

Approaching the highway that he was on in as he got closer the headlights, turned into a black pickup truck. They belong to a black pickup truck. And the pickup truck pulled onto the highway at a high rate of speed in front of them really Slow down much at all, sped up on on to the highway from from a side road there and continued pulling away from him: And he decided to something- quite right and he did Headed to follow the the truck in see if you no further action needs to be taken, because of the area he was in. It was so remote Ann because of you know fair. Common for people, out there in the area to to be armed, You know whether a gun or knife or whatever, so he didn't want to confront the whoever was in the truck by himself. So he he decided

Wait until he met up with Again was come in the the other direction. On the highway there before We tried to initiate any kind of traffic stop, so he just kind of kept pace with the pickup truck in clock, the speed and you know noted that the truck was speeding. I think he was going about Ten or fifteen miles an hour over the over the speed limit And then, eventually, he did a intersect with city sausage, you coming the other direction Ann and he turned on his lights and pulled the truck over. Now, what was the most odd thing and the first thing one of the first things he notice and also quite a Jewel for the climate. At that time, the The officer noticed the first thing that hit her nose noticed. Yeah, well, the driver of the truck it turned out young. Young, younger man and

he was wearing only shorts and sweater of some kind, but that the shorts aspect of it was certainly certainly strange, considering it was late November at night, so certainly not the appropriate for the weather- hey, And that was the first thing you noticed and then also when he, when he looked in notice that the driver had some smears of blood if you're to be on his face and on his legs as well. And then he also noticed To be some wet pool, on the on the drivers mat by the driver seat there not to be a pool of little pool of blood there, right. So that's certainly raise more red flags and he He eventually, you know in discussion with the drive

First of all, you know what is this: why do you have blood on you and what is this stuff and. The the driver who you the turns out, Who is Cody Ledger Coffee driver told him that he had been out with a friend and they have been poaching. And they had shot a deer and then your run off and had tracked it down and I had put it out of its misery by either. Clubbing it or staff, it with a knife, it was a little unclear what his story was exactly kind of changed it a little bit, but and that's the reason for the blood and he made your comment that even though he knew it was illegal to be poaching that you I'm a redneck and that's the sort of thing we do for fun, basically, is what he said so. The the officers. You know found that the story a little suspicious and they Calling out eh

conservation officer, Allegedly there was poaching involved with it and the conservation officer came out to the site there and join them. And during the course of the stop they you know they also had spotted in. Open container of alcohol in the cab The truck given them. The ability to go ahead and initiate a full stop and search of the of They also found a metal Leatherman multi tool. With several knife blades attached and when they open that- today was a red stain, look like blood on that, and they asked him about that. And he said something about that- he killed some grouse and then hello. The the experience cop said, there's no way that this is too much blood for that and then he said. Well, I use it on a deer before that

so. These guys were already incredulous before they called the senior guy that helped the conservation officer didn't work day yeah, as you mentioned, uh the they did find out at Leatherman multitool with with the red stain and certainly it the the story seem to be become more and more questionable. As it went on as they found more things in the truck there. Now the conservation officer he's he's also an experience police. Officer or an in law enforcement, so he's he's a very experienced guy and what happens when he comes and what They do in terms- of to get a statement. Well, the conservation officer Cameron Hill. As you said, he was, he was a quite experienced law enforcement officer. He had decades on the floor,

If I recall correctly- and he got called out there little bit later in the night and showed up at the site there and it was decided that he would interview Cody and try to get the full story from him and you know again, you got the same sort of story that he was out in the area because Basically, his grandfather had told him about a rd. Out there that had good. Something on it or something, and so he was out looking for the road in Grand Father, I told him about the hunting areas. Father, told him about it. Hill basically said. Well, you don't even have a rifle or anything. How are you going to hunt you know without a gun for everything, and she said. Well, I'm just out here. Just to just to kind of get a feel for the area and see if it's a good place to hunt out you know some other time or something

and it wasn't you know, he'll didn't buy it. You know he he said in all these roads out here, pretty much the same, you know just doesn't Since that you would drive all the way out here just to check out this way, in particular road when they're all basically similar and he you know he didn't stand by, and the story, and you didn't buy into the story about how the deer was killed and how they had with the ranch which, by the way, was also found in the truck. There was a wrench, metal ranch that also had red stains on it as well and yeah. You know the threading part of the range there. So none of this was making any sense and It was decided that somebody needs to go back to the road that Cody had. Come off of onto the highway and see you I was going on back there

particularly because one other thing they found in the truck was a backpack monkey backpack backpack In a minute, in the form of a monkey Basically, and when they look inside of there they found a an id of a girl id a difficult. And raise the the red flags, even more so they decided they. They definitely need to check out the the road. Yeah, so the woman was Lauren Dante, the And when they did run it, check on her. She was a missing missing person. So now they really knew they had something didn't they. I was certainly looking like there is a lot more going on here than just some poaching. How they decide to go back to this road, so tell us about the decision to go back and what happens when they do that.

Well, you know they kind of talk among themselves and they figured well he'll, probably the best one to do it because he was most familiar with those back roads and he had a four wheel, drive truck, and you know It would be best for him to do it, you just about test equipment and whatnot forward and knowledge of the area. So so But this is about one thousand one hundred and thirty. By now, and he went back and turn down the old road and it was the old logging road that wasn't really used much anymore in follow the tire tracks. Basically in the snow Knock down the road there and eventually came to a point where the tracks ended and uhm he. You know he got out and saw some Sort of tracks other tracks in the snow there snow I've been to there's an area there and they kind of it's going to let off into push the tree line a little bit there.

And so he he followed along in the in the snow there and eventually made a gruesome discovery which turned out to be law orange body there in the snow where Cody had had left her You know the turned out. When no Keller happened upon. Him on the highway there. He was essentially fleeing the scene of the murder site. Well, let's Let's move gotta give him and I'm not going to give credibility or credence to his story, but of course, all along the way. He is lying conniving thinking he might be able to outsmart police at some point because he has as we'll find out but tell us what the injuries were the extent of the injuries. What exactly did they find in terms of her injuries, young woman's injuries.

Well Lauren was very sad, quickly. Eaton bludgeoned. She her It turned out her her face was so badly damaged that they have difficulty being able to identify her and you know that turned out they had to to to identify a fighter. They had to find a a tattoo elsewhere on her body, because her face was just so. You know just just just pulverized She was a not a big girl and code. Is a pretty big guy and he had he had pretty bad you know with a with a wrench that they'd found the pipe wrench. It found, and It done a lot of damage so

so obviously they have this crime scene, and now this crime is turned into something completely different, obviously just through from dogwood police work here and. In a psychopathic killer, there was maybe oblivious to how closely be to being arrested, let's go back with Cody Alan Legible copy. And talk about his life, we we've alluded to it, or we spoke mentioned in the introduction that he came from a well respected family. How will respect then why was so respected and how normal was his family really tell us? the family and his upbringing as far as you article in the book, well, as best as I was able to determine, he came from the c very seemingly normal family. They were. Highly regarded in the community he was going to raise in the Fort St James area and his

His family had been there for quite a while. They, I at a lumber mill, they're the they operated for years and years and eventually sold. But they were well known family and they were. They were thought of highly in. Cody was very popular. You Is he had a lot of friends in school? he played a lot of sports, you know he excelled in in ice hockey play for years and years and years, and really had friends both both both sexes. You know had for friends and female friends as well, and we just really popular well thought of guy, everybody really seemed to like him any contact with police or any psychiatric background whatsoever. Not that I came across, but he didn't have any kind of.

Record or encounters with unfortunate, no sort of psychiatric counseling. That that the apparent. And from interviews from friends. I know it was young, so Is not to say that you couldn't be duped from relationship that was fairly wasn't not long But what was all indications about his care, Was there any hint violence or anything I'm towards whatsoever, no there really wasn't and that. You know one of the things that it's such a shock to his, is not just his his family member, but his friends and the people in the community there.

Quotes a James as well as just you know. There was nothing really to indicate that he had a we sort of violent tendencies. You know some, some some of his friends had mentioned that he he chances to to be violent at. Times and never had so it was just complete shock. There wasn't any indication of this. You know hidden in fact he had been living with Three female roommates, three friends of his. And you know, they've been getting along fine. There had been any kind of. Inkling there'd been no inkling whatsoever for any of these folks that he'd come into contact with that he would be, full of brutally murdering. I a young girl. You know young fifteen year old girl which which no one on one now we know To to attest to this normalcy, he has a

friend named Amy Wohl Boil and tell us where what he's doing is he in school? Is he working? What does he do as an occupation or what ambition, tell us a little bit about Amy? Well, she's import, in the story as well. So tell us a little bit about. That relationship and and basically Was he doing at that time and at that age, at nineteen, so yeah he was working in Prince George At a Ford dealership. He was in the working in the parts department there His a family friend was the The owner or the manager of the Ford Dealership- and so he you know gotten into contact with someone planning a job there, and so he was. He was working there at the Ford dealership and that's where he met Amy.

Now you mentioned, and she you know she hit it off with them and and they started dating very seriously, and you know- essentially we're spending the night at the others is pretty much every night, pretty after they started going out and and at the time, his arrest he been going out with her for several months. Seriously and they you know they had been been far enough along in a relationship and serious enough about it. They were. Talking about each other's during a future together and plans and they were going to move in together and You know he was going to work his way up at the Ford dealership and She was going to school. She's going into to local college there and wanted eventually the a teacher and they were, they were planning a life together at the time they were planning a future together and of course, she

had no idea of this other side to him, just like all the other folks. So it was a big shock to her as well, and when he was arrested the information came out about his prior victims. Was there any. You know, I mean you're nineteen and a lot of stuff's, forgivable and and very very understandable, and I can relate as well in terms of alcohol and drug use and occasional drug use and very serious drug use. There's a big difference, then there's Variation so. What was really the truth? What may he might have been had different, so did? He showed Amy well, but people. That really were candid. What was the it is drug use. Well, he somewhere along the way he got involved with Cocaine- and you know he was- he was a pretty big drinker, but

He did he did in the Getting involved with cocaine, YO he'd experimented a little bit with some things in high school. Stuff as well But eventually started The cocaine and was was using going to prostitutes ascential. To procure the cocaine form he's using them to you know. By buy the drugs forum and Amy, obviously did not know this matter that he had at the time now. Let's talk about the and before we talk about Amy Boyle and then that com, in at the police station, which is just profound or that confrontation anyway, where we get to see Amy and the police play well a very well I'll. Let you explain the theatrical and dramatic. I think that

capturing the book with the girlfriend and and And ledger: walk off and the police officer so First, let's talk about what happens when he's initially arrested and the initial interview uh How much does he say? Does the lawyer up what happens well when he was. First placed under arrest up there on the highway. He you know he denied. Anything to do with the murder of lauren- and you know he was- he- was read his rights and including the right to an attorney, and You actually did the ref After a do, you have a lawyer. Do you have a lawyer if you have a lawyer and. It's saying no, I just want to talk to my dad, which it's it really kind of reinforced to me how young he was. You know he's the situation and just wants his dad. You know you saying he's wanted to speak to his dad

and eventually he was brought to the Local RCMP post there been put in an interview, room and wasn't. Wasn't doing much talking beginning. He was pretty quiet, they had a a couple. Couple of It's from the RCMP interview team started, talking with them, and you know they essentially did sort of a kind of a good cop the cops were retaining to open up, eventually, you gotta start talking a little, and so you know his history changed as they as they spoke to him. It went from. He didn't have anything to do with her or with her being murdered. He just I stumbled on are there founder there tear you know eventually well

we were riding along and she just suddenly crazy in the truck and started screaming and hitting herself, and then grab the pipe wrench from the flu the truck and start hitting herself in the face with it and. As a result of her injuries and everything just ended up, you know we're out of her misery using uh leatherman tool. We have the knife part of that to finish her off so to speak because You know I, I guess the explanation being that it was just such bizarre thing to happen? He you know he didn't really know what to do and just kind of just reacted. That way in so ended up Finishing her off that way, but but she had been the one that had caused all her mass. Injuries to begin with. So

his story changed the more you talk with them. He started. Kind of admitting a little bit more a little bit more and. You know they. They eventually had enough there to just seriously taken a look at him for some other unsolved murder in the area there in there initially were able to tie him to to two three other murders. Three other women. In the area Prince George area there Ereli through dna evidence, He apparently didn't do a very good job of. Clean up after some of these murders and there's. Dna evidence left all over the apartments that he was living in on his clothing and.

So, on some of the weapons instruments had used to kill these folks. There are still, You know blood residue dna evidence on there as well, so they were able to But I am to the three other murders: let's, go back, because I wanted to get you to recount what you do with his girl Amy voile like I and and Cody Ledge Walk off in terms of refuting or refuting what he had said and and using that, as you know, is very much like criminal law order episode where there psychologically using The one to manipulate, situation to be to have an advantage over the other into a it as much information as they could from the situation so tell us again, mass please, you do in the book. Tell us about

situation, and what the police did get a cult of this altercation that they set up. Well, after after several hours of interviewing him using the the two send interview home they did eventually bring Amy in there to the station. And she was going to help them. You know talk to him and try to get him to to open up more and be more honest, what had happened and so no She they they brought her in eventually, and there was a you know a tender embrace between her and Cody and. You know there is a lot of a lot of emotion going on there for both of them And she, you know basically just awesome. Will you know tell me what happened and you know he

We kept denying that he had of the two boring and thirty you know. He would never do such a thing, and you know you know you know what kind of person I am I'm not capable of killing. Somebody and the you know. I would never do something like that. And the so he had that emotional poll going on there with Amy? And then you know the they would have a a policeman in there as well. On the same time- and you know he would be Writing could as well. You know, things I will. You know it came where to find out. You know what the truth is and what happened, and you know you need to tell her. She deserves to know the truth, and so they were working on in that way, as well playing on his emotions there and eventually he you know he did up admitting that he had how he had met Lauren that he just stumbled on or that he had met her on a social.

Fight, online, canadian site cornucopia And that he had met, going on there, and you know they had kind of exchanged messages back and forth and eventually set up a time to meet, and he had picked her up and they had had sex in his truck and had decided to. Drive out to the abandoned logging road where she was killed. It said they decided they wanted to go four wheeling or something along those lines, and so that's why they were out there and but then he did he did have this store. Sorry about well, she kind of went ikr easy out there and started hurting yourself in all that- and you know with this continued back

and with with any you know, pleading with him to tell the truth, and you know 'cause, he loves everything the tell the truth and the sort sort cleaning. He eventually Third divulging a little bit more, and you know when a policeman. Kind of challenged him and said you know the story you're telling here is just Bunch of baloney, you know this is ridiculous Someone look at more, injuries and. There's no way she could have done those two herself, it's just physically impossible for her to have you herself and inflicted these injuries. You know by yourself and so he you know he had all that coming at him and, eventually it warm down, and he said okay. Well, Maybe maybe I hit her with a wrench. You know if they how many times and you said,

no we're not more than not more than a couple of times that in here, more than a couple of times with it, but they did eventually get him to admit that he did. He actually struck her with with a wrench. And you know he he stole. Try to say it? Well, I didn't kill her, though you know she was already going to be dying uh. You know, I still don't know what to do I saw the injury she done herself. You know she'd stab yourself with a leatherman tool, and so I just kind of I just freaked out, basically, in hit her in the head. Just to you know, just 'cause I don't know what to do. Basically, so yeah. We will talk where the pause is just for a second to talk about Directv, but we will talk when we we about the signature, the state of the body.

It has a similarities for the police to the further investigation once they know what they have in their hands. They're going to and in further in those other areas, so will be just going to pause the second to talk about Directv. Directv right now they have. They have an incredible offer, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine a month for twelve months with a twenty four month. Agreement Directv is, really superior alternative to cable, with over two hundred and eighty five channels and Directv's most advanced hd. Dvr system ever and right now Well, there's three months: free of HBO Showtime Starz and Cinemax with the sole through ultimate packages. Watch anytime, your favorite, true crime, like investigation, discovery, the first forty eight hours on the case. With Paula, Zahn, crime and instigation and my alt my favorite american justice in a listen to all of the latest Telugu

Programs, the biggest movies in the very best in sports programming spring amazing bundles, An amazing savings. So call one eight five, five now nine million eight hundred and three thousand eight hundred and twelve, switch to Directv. Today, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine a month for twelve months with three free months of your favorite channels that Directv one thousand eight hundred and fifty five Nine eight hundred and three eight one and two. Kgtv, when we last spoke, we last left off. We were talking about that signature that police first would I have noticed an would have compare two other similar crimes, unsolved murders that shared that signature and those and and this and he would have been a candidate for so tell us about what how that in

sedation moves forward in that direction, but when they found when they body you out there in the in the snow and in the remote area there she had been left in a really You know kind of sexually degrading way. Her pants pulled down around three and she'd also been, as I said, she's been savagely beaten and that. That condition of the body, and the way it was left was similar to. Some of these other. Missing women in the area. So that's really what, about looking seriously at there, proud being a connection between. Orange, murder and and the murder of these other women. Now we have the

other victims are Jill to Chanco Natasha, Montgomery, Cynthia mazed and again we mentioned Lauren Leslie. So let talk about. Which ones are the next victim that they discovered evidence. Love and how they proceeded with that investigation. Well, yeah, the the other three Jill Cynthia Natasha. They were They were a little bit different from from Lauren, and that they had a some common characteristics. They were. They all three known to be drug users, and they were also known to be prostitutes as well, so they, this this commonality amongst them,

that Lauren and Ann share with them. She was a little bit the different all the different situation there, but so that these three had gone missing in the year or so prior to Cody's arrest, Jill the Chanco was the first one. Went missing she Disappeared in October the year before two thousand and nine And then her body was found. Several days later. Around Prince George. There. And Cynthia was. Last cinege about a year later, two thousand ten a few months before Cody was arrested and then her body was found.

George, about a month later,. And Natasha was I'll the last scene around the same time period and things around September. Two thousand and ten. But everybody was not found, no still I've been found to this day as far as I know, but they, be able to tie her murder. Two. As, as I mentioned before, through DNA from samples taken in apartment. It was interesting to you talk about the DNA in the terms of Natasha, Montgomery. Sahara. Dna was everywhere in the living room. The bathroom, the bed comforter, the Jack, hooded jacket, the dining room, floors plus all kinds of point in the closet as well, so they did find

Incredible amount of as you had mentioned, dna evidence that all the locations where he was he wasn't a Tidy guy in this regard, was he Yeah, it's really remarkable in a sense the the, the lack of effort almost I guess, would be the say that he that he took in trying to conceal these murders. I mean he didn't at it yeah. I don't know if it's heating wasn't quite sure how to go about it or he didn't really care or what it was. Maybe I mean you can try get up too early to his youth, because it is pretty unusual to have A serial killer, operating at the young age that that he was out. I mean it was nineteen when, when he started. So, whatever the reason, though yeah it was very.

Strange to me that he had left so much evidence there to be found And you know thank goodness because otherwise, they might not be able to the time for these other ones at least get some closure to the families of these other. These other women. But it was certainly in a that struck me the fact that as you said, there was just so much of this all over the place. You also talk about that. The weapon and she a variety of weapons and- and I got gotta stress again because I don't think we have stressed this- that there is kill. And there's anger, we never see where this anger really comes from. There is no evidence of his philosophy being.

Like some serial killers in and in their mentality, in terms of the classification that they want to rid the world of you know the undesirable prostitute. So we don't really see any of that any real, strong evidence of that and the and again he's only nineteen years old, but with Cynthia MOSS. Is she had a picaroon? There was an axe used to either before and after for disposal or for for a weapon itself. And knives- and so a variety of weapons and in I, if you could agree this is even unusual for these guys that are trying to meet out some kind of punishment on someone yeah, It really is striking the extent to which he. Your damage, these women, that, just as you said, there were some almost If there's some just ray

age coming from within, I mean just the brutal attacks on them. You know you mentioned mentioned he is murder and You know he had to this. The and you know she had. She had Baboons all over she had. Blunt trauma she had fractured ribs, she had broken neck bone. Those cheekbones broken fingers. You know the, If damage trying to protect yourself- and Yeah, some of her some of the vertebrae in your network, so broken so bad that it was almost as if someone had stomped on her neck. You know when they when they examined it. It was just so so Rific we inflicted so expensive Yeah there wasn't really It's really hard to explain where this came from. You know it's talking. He

with all his friends had to say in his family members, including as Father who apparently currently spend a lot of time with specially know in the summers. The punted together and fish together and all that kind of good stuff and he's always been described as very easy going You know essentially harmless kid yeah and It's nothing there to really clear anybody into this other side of him, this the center darker violence. Side that he had an. You know the one he did make one comment during the source of the trial where he was talking about. We said that you know basically that she was.

You know a good girl and the kind of the implication there being that that his victims, we're not good girls; they were something less than that. So you know perhaps he just read: these these other women as something less than. You know human or version or what not is hard. Explain, but he definitely seems like he viewed them differently. They weren't. He didn't value their life like he valued Amy,. Yeah that I think that's the only that's the only real evidence that there might have been something amiss, but at the same time like when you look at you know, Otis Tool or you look at even Colonel Williams or you look at Robert Pickton.

You might see that rejection and even the prostitute, ripping them off and then some kind of drug dealer using them or them, least realizing that they are this guy isn't old enough Doesn't have any of those type of it, Xperience. It isn't a loner. Loser, unsuccessful, isolated guy. It see is very, very odd that it just does not fit in that profile at all. In terms of why he would go to those lengths. In the short period of time. I have such a young age without any indication of anything. You know, I just it seems the would be the cruise of other older, like I say, Robert Pickton type serial killers in terms of motivation. Anyway, let's talk about the You know the grand father of the family of legible cough was incredible they couldn't believe that there

grandson, that their family member would do something like this and they hired a really good lawyer. But despite that. He was charged. I was surprised with first degree, murder and four count So first degree murder tell us a little bit about how that how they and this first degree murder, because we have a difference in Canada and the US in terms of that sort, definition of pre the determination of credit meditation, I should say tell us a little bit about how they were successful in being able to charge him at least with first degree murder on grounds that they figure that they could were able. Successfully be able to do that. Well. I think the key was that the murders were committed in the course of or in connection with sexual assault. Is right, one of the key Is that really allowed them to do that.

And you know, during the course of the trial he really tried to distance, so from that aspect of it And actually you know he did he did. He need to try to plead to second degree murder and that was not accepted and you. He did go to trial and he said on the first degree, murder counts all four of them. Ah he did have a possibility of manslaughter but that would he would have to prove that his he was intoxicated to the point that there was he had. No intention of killing And, of course, you know had the cocaine use as part of the case and as part of the defense they did raise that his cocaine use as well, but you know, obviously the. It it wasn't. There wasn't enough there to.

To allow him to get the that's charge our conviction. Now did he speak at trial and if he did what, his demeanor, and what did he say. Yeah. He took the he took the stand, trial and. He had a very interesting, explanation as to. Where he is wide. They've been around. When these murders had taken place, he. Came up with a story about some. Unnamed individuals, three uh visuals. He would not specifically identify call them X, Y and Z, and and he story was that

Xy and Z were the ones that actually killed these three Wanna, not not him. He had just Been there for each of the murders and. As it turned out order is always also incidentally, also happened at his apartment, each time and basically, he said. Was that He has got to know xy and z because they were drug dealers, cocaine, suppliers and he Did come into contact with in that way and they had But hey, can we come over to your place later on and You said: ok, yeah sure, that's fine, and so they showed up at his place. Later on that night and had a bunch with him and. You know on each of these occasions they had one of the one of the victims. There I had, you know, sent the air and Tasha Angie. With them and- now during the course of partying. There are altogether you

and one of them x or whoever would basically say, hey. You know, Cynthia has to have to be killed or words to that effect and. Then one of one of those other guys would end up killing her. He just kind of with their and you know. Sometimes he would help him they. They would ask for You know an axe or something, and so he would give him whatever he had. That was closed. What they wanted, and that would be to the extent of his involvement in the actual murders and then afterwards he would help them you know either clean up or dispose The the body and he you know he claimed that he went out why why he was helping him do that? You know. He's basically said that for eight hundred, if I didn't you know, I might be killed, they might kill me, so he said

he felt like he didn't, really have much choice in the matter that he had to kind of go along with it. What was he like in the cross examination, because he could try out the story, but then under cross examination and again it for listener. If they don't know, this is really like a latch. This ditch effort No, no real a lawyer I would not advise it uh, criminal might want to do it and they have the right to do it. But it is sort of you have nothing to lose because you have no defense really isn't it. Yeah yeah. I think part of this xy and Z story was to again try to distance himself from this sexual aspect of it and he was. He was concerned about what would happen to him,

a federal prison. As a sexual offender. You type of folks they're not looked upon very well by the by the other inmates there. So he didn't want to have that label on him going in there. So he had time to think about a story and he came up with one Xy and Z story, and you know it it Wasn't it wasn't very believable put it mildly, but some certainly was a an interesting attempt to try to get out of it a little bit. And you know he talked to trial to you a little bit about his background- upbringing and stuff, and you know he himself said that He had a very normal childhood growing up and he had normal parents and got a his parents fine and

the whole family got got along well on his mom. You know made him breakfast every morning had ready on the table and now it just kind of made it sound like he had a you know, kind of a happy childhood and happy family. So. You know just kind of getting back to what we were talking about earlier there about. You know any indications of how he could. See what he did everything and is just it's just really really hard one to explain. Now the thing is we've got to explain to is that at the time of this trial there, no law for consecutive sentencing for multiple murder, so Eve, would be convicted of these murders. It would be concur, sentence, NG, meaning one life sentence, maximum twenty five years, or at least part at least twenty five years. In this case he was all

for parole after fifteen years, so we, to explain that that this serial killer could be potentially be walking around again at as you put in your book. What age. Well yeah, as he said, so he was. He was twenty four when he was convicted on these. For first degree, murder counts with the twenty five year sentence is for each one of them, but she said running: can currently at the same time. So- Yeah under canadian law, this is known as the scene hope, because You could apply for parole in twenty twenty nine After after fifteen years in prison and which would mean if he was able to get out, then you know he he would be before you. You turn forty be able to get out on parole. He be be out again Thirty, nine years old, which is

you know mind boggling when you think about it. The the brutality of these murders that he committed and he could be technically conceivably be out walking around again you the freemen, when he's thirty nine, still still the young man- and you know this after the presiding judge,. That, after weighing all the evidence in and hearing everything that he did and seeing how so he conducted himself on the stand, showing no remorse you know, showing no empathy for his victims, really just being kind of cold blooded up there really in his mannerisms and responses and everything so that the judge after seen all this in his In his findings, you know made a finding, including that you know he said that he doesn't think. Cody should ever be allowed to to walk among us again and yet here he is uh. No, so up additionally being able to do that.

I gotta say to it for their for our audience as well as a twenty twelve, it conservative government enacted consecutive medicine for multiple murder rate for child I guess- and so now the maximum that someone could get. This Cody would have been eligible for seventy five years before eligibility of parole, which what made him a much older man, yeah. He he just kind of. Got in just just before then you know is the MER is he did were in two thousand nine and ten. So he He was able to avoid that that an act meant for the repeal of the old law- did you Make any advances towards being able to interview him and what was his response tell us about any? that correspondence or potential correspondence

You know I never really tried to get in touch with him I I got a lot of my information. Through the the trial, seating through the police records and speak to one of the one of the victim's father. I got a lot of my information that way and I never actually tried to to contact Cody himself. Largely because he filed an appeal earlier this year- and I just with an active appeal, there's just not much change love. Someone talking about their their case when they have an appeal pending. So. That really wasn't it wasn't something I pursued do victims. Families were very active at trial, and in this case, and and also you spoke to them as well, so tell us a about some of the family.

And their response and their interaction at this trial Well, the family had a hard time during the trial. You know they they felt like the the whole the way the whole system is set up. They just felt like it offers a lot of protections for the criminal or the accused. And not a lot of protection for the for the victims, so they had a they had a hard time. They struggled a lot sat through the trial, every all including Porn Leslie's, Father, Doug Leslie, who I talk: you're quite a bit and well it really wore on them and they they had a difficult time with it, and they were obviously you know relieved! The best word, I guess to say that that he was convict ultimately,

And you know it was important to them that. Their loved ones, not just the bye as prostitutes or you know, drug user. Is that instead, they should be thought of as mothers and daughters and sisters and You know people that who were loved and who were missed, When they were gone and people who had. You know their own special talents and offered their own. Individual. Personalities for the world and people that should be thought of. As as so people are not just these. These kind of these nameless faceless sort of

it so those of some point to them as well. So you know they. They spoke after the trial and Opportunity to address the media and and really bring out, can emphasize a lot of these aspects of their family members. Yeah. It's it's a recurring theme that we just have to. We have to humanize a victim. While we certainly are gung ho humanizing a killer, we do in fiction we doing in Non Nonfiction, we we. Hi, we romanticize basically their lives to a certain degree as well. You know, and And yet the victim is still called a hooker reduced to. You know a sex act and I don't know how professional some of these people are if they just have a drug problem anyway, so I mean I can I have said it before. I just have an issue with the media always play

up on that it's somehow they had it almost coming to him and Most of cautionary tale that you know well, if you go there and you do this and you do this and you lose like this in life. This will be your fate and at the same time as we know lots of times there, looking for reasons why I standing person from a good background, might want to do something. Looking for rationalization or excuses. Luckily, in this story I didn't seem to be any way any so for this Cody. He led was there. No, I mean I, as you said it's important to to make sure that the can sir. Our personalized that you know they have some sort of way In the story And you know to do that and I try to do that in every time. I right, I tried to do that and you know it

the ability to do that, really, the is largely on the amount of If the often that you know you get from for family members and you know the more the more the family members are willing to talk to you and participate the as a writer, well to do that to bring the the victims a on the pages and let the readers see You know who they were people as individuals, yeah. Yeah, it's incredibly sad story to with this. These young women. Their lives ended in such a horrible way and then having the Some family have to relive the details in court and From the very beginning this this guy plays like a real cycle past, at least from my ex

it's in that how he was so cool and calm and yawning. Yes, you describe an interview. He was initially yawning with the police, even though his life could be no. I at this Supercross road he was still yawning and is a very good actor. Wasn't work. Yeah he just he said he certainly seems to have this psychopathic. Personality, and you know that being the just back of utter lack of remorse. This lack of empathy and just this Goodness in this, you know robotics sort of reaction, and lack of reaction. I guess you could say in mannerisms and just not really phase, and you know- and in fact his defense counsel made multiple attempts. During the course of the trial to try to humanize him to try to humanize Cody and try to

Show that you know he's not this like cruel monster. Many became very. The defense counsel became very exasperated in trying to do this because every time he tried it it it didn't work, you know code either didn't. Understand what was trying to be done or just didn't care, because he, Kept coming across the same way and it certainly didn't help his his case to To be seen that way, but he didn't seem to care or or you can from he change, couldn't, changes, his mannerisms The biggest story was this in the media Well, it was, it was covered nationally in the near got a lot of attention

in Canada, but outside of Canada as well, and you know, because you know partly, I think because of Cody's age, how young he was an pearly because of. The area that this happened. It's uh, In an area. That had a large number of murders are marginal. Missing women. Women Missing in that area, that recent years. So it did get a lot of media coverage and attention. Well. I want to thank you for coming on and talking about the country for kill for those people that might want to contact you and look at the other work that you have like the true story of the vampire rapist tell us color audience how they might be able to contact you or if you have a facebook page or how we promote yourself so give us

information. If you could please yeah. I do have a facebook page. I mean you know its just type, Ngt Hunter and I'll come up on there. My the page for my my prior novel on there, the the vampire next door, the store Remember a rapist has a facebook page as well. If you want to type that in on facebook- and I have a author page on Amazon and the the publisher of these books, Rj Rj Parker Publishing, have a page and thanks to me on there as well- and I don't also be reached by email. I always always happy to hear from folks. I have questions about something I've written about or whether they have story to share or a suggestion about something right, the something, be interested in

and then finding more about or writing about him, always interested in ideas and things like that as well, so they can always reach my email as well, and my email address is. Katie Hunter. One four at Gmail, dot com, great again. I want to thank you very much JT for coming on and talking about the country, boy killer. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very. Action. You have a great evening, all thanks again- and hopefully I will be talking to you again soon about another work as Well- absolutely look forward to it can exam taker. You too, can I can. I.

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