And now I thought, from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah. These be the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah but the far less appealing blobfish. Come on to add insult to injury. You could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance, and now I thought From Geico Motorcycle, it took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah. These be the cheetah and learn your animal. Isn't the cheetah, but The far less appealing blobfish

come on to add insult to injury, you could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. Blog talk, radio. Good evening this is your host Danza passkey for the program, true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime, history and the authors I have written about them do sure that the villainous captives were fit for trial at Nuremberg. The US army sent an ambitious army psychiatrist, Captain Douglas MK to supervise their mental well being during their detention, Kelly she was being offered the professional opportunity of a lifetime to discuss distinguishing trait among these arch criminals. That would mark them as psychologically different. The rest of humanity

so began a remarkable relationship between Kelly and his captors told Here, for the first time, with unique access to Kelly's long hidden papers in medical records, Kelly it was a hazardous quest dangerous because I don't get the flavors of computer back in a big way, we're talking, pumpkin doughnuts, pumpkin, muffins, pumpkin, munchkins, donut holes, ovoid, pumpkin, coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen copy, pumpkin latte, scanned the exciting new cinnamon sugar pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin flavored everything at Dunkin America runs on Dunkin and Pumpkin K Cup pod still limited time. Offer participation can kick it used under license against all the expectations he began to appreciate and under and some of them at sea captives, none more so than the former rush Marshall, Hermann Goring, evil had its charms. The book that

cussing this evening is the Nazi and the psychiatrist with my special guest journalist and author Jack. Hello, hi welcome to the program of You for green this interview, Jack El Hai. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me here. And I did have a opportunity to ask you. If that's the way you pronounce your name, is that the way properly to pronounce your name jack absolutely you got it right, okay, great I want to say congratulations and thank you very much for the for this book, an amazing, incredible, read, and so I I know RI. This is going to sit back here and really enjoyed this interview. So, congratulations on a fantastic and very, very compelling book. Thank you think. Let's see it, it may have been the project of a lifetime absolutely absolutely now, first off before we

get into setting the stage where this incredible story began and How did you come to be involved with story to write this book and why it happened. Quite unusual way, I had Previously written another book called the lobotomy which came out several years ago. That book is about the psychiatrist, who The main advocate and developer of the treatment called lobotomy tree Thank Y at illness and as it turned out that psychiatrist, who I wrote about at that time, had a side interest in studying his fellow psycho actress who had taken their own lives, and so he had written a little bit about Douglas and Kelly, and and he very tantalizing what he had written

so that stayed in my mind on this doctor Kelly's story and I decided to see if I can find out some more about it? I learned pretty quickly, though, there were not many of Doctor Kelly's papers or records that were in publicly accessable archives, and so I decide headed to train, seek out his surviving family members and after great deal of trouble. I did find Doctor Kelly's oldest son Doug, who was at that time living in northern California, not not very far as it turned out from where my mother was living at that time, and I wrote to Doug and asked him if he had told him about my interest in his father's career and asked him if he had any any of his father's papers are records he answered he did and he invited me to come and come sometime and take a look, and I

Did come by and visit dug in his home. It was one of the most remarkable days in my writing life. I think the day that I walked into Doug's house and he pointed to the stack of boxes that he had br shut up and said in his living room and said here. It is have your way with it, and I had been expecting that maybe Doug had a system file folders, but I did not did not expect to see a mountain of boxes and and Doug left the room and left me alone with these boxes of documents, and I opened up the first. If remove the first and saw that it was a remarkable collection of things that should be in museums and archives, because Dr Kelly had brought

home from Nuremberg, psychiatric records of the top twenty two nazis who face trial in the in the first Nuremberg trial, the International Military Tribunal medical records other artifacts that he brought back from Nuremberg, his notebooks and memos and all kinds of papers. It was an incredible mother, lode, of fantastic information and- and that is what I based the book on. Now just curious is just not really part of the book, but did you know at before hand, were you aware of the existence of Kelly's book twenty two cells I quickly became aware of it Doctor Kelly had written a book during the

1940s after he returned to the states from Nuremberg called twenty two cells in Nuremberg, and it's it's consists of his psychological profiles of each of those twenty two defendants. It's really not an account of the Nuremberg trials or it the any of the judicial proceedings. That happened there. It was quickly aware of that book. Once I started looking into Doctor Kelly's life right now, you can maybe list well, maybe before that maybe set the stage basically for ob, we're talking about something that everyone should know and prob. He does know to a great degree, but of course, we're talking. Lots of information that people are just not aware of, were not fully aware of. Let's put this way also, this is, One thousand nine hundred and forty five after the capture

at the end of the Second World WAR and and focus of this book is Douglas M Kelly, but also Hermann, goring, and so tell us set the stage in nineteen forty five, four, the events that are discussed in this book, basically the examination by Kelly of these twenty two nazis, so such that the page how these particular nazi prison where they were first sent and set the stage for us sure as as the war ended in Europe in the spring of nineteen, forty five, the allies were very intent. On capturing the Nazi government, governmental and military leaders and the allies had in mind all along that something would be done with these men. There is little bit of disagreement at first among the allies. What should be done? The Russians

in the English wanted very quick of judicial proceedings. If there would be judicial proceeding at all, before executing these men, And the Americans wanted a trial that would that would present the crimes, of the Nazis before an international audience and- and so that is, what ended up happening? The many of the captured not leaders were assembled first in a improvised prison in a village called Mondorf in Luxembourg, and that's actually where Dr Kelly first met most of them. He was sent first side to Mondorf that where he met Herrmann during and many of the others and when he met a during as you mentioned, in the introduction his he had

assignment of Stablishing, the mental fitness of these men to stand trial for someone like Kelly, that was not a difficult thing to do and could be done with relative ease and he wanted to make use of this uh opportunity that he had. He was the only psychiatrist given access to these and we're at the time and probably still are considered the arch criminals of the 20th century, and he wanted to understand what made them do, what they had done. They had committed war crimes. Crimes against humanity on a scale never before seen. So what was responsible so this, how did it happen and he hoped to? use psychiatric testing. Psychological assessments and intense interviewing of these men to see if there

It was a common thread that ran through the maybe it was. Some kind of psychiatric disorder may be a percent Buddy disorder, something that that would let these men together and explain their behavior, Eventually, they were These were all moved to Nuremberg once it became established that that was where the trial was going to happen, they were moved into a Susan Wing of a complex called the palace of Justice in Nuremberg Kelly traveled, along with them and continued his his official work, determining the sanity of the Nazis then his unofficial work, which which, which claimed most of his attention. And enthusiasm, which was this study that he had set up to find whether there a common psychiatric elements between the men and he worked did the Nazis he spent he spent hundreds of hours.

Interviewing them, through the summer of nineteen, forty five through the the fall of that year that right We began in November one thousand nine hundred and forty five, Kelly remained with them, January one thousand nine hundred and forty six trial was still underway and had many months ago, go with Kelly left. At that time he had found what he needed. He thought and then returned to the states, and his tour of duty was over He during those months, in addition to interviewing the Nazis, he gave them all a psychological assessment called that and with your listeners may be familiar with called the roshak inkblot test and some other psychological assessments, one in particular the manic apperception test, he also tested them for IQ and and, as I mentioned intensively interview them,

so that is through all of that work, Dr Kelly, hope to find some something in common and he failed to with the exception of one of the defendants. He believed that all of the Nazis were saying not just in the legal sense, which is not a very high bar, but they were saying in the psychiatric sense, which is a higher bar and you could tell right from wrong cognizant the implicate, actions of their actions, but he, found no disorders, and this was terribly upsetting to him. Meanwhile, though, he had drawn close in a sense to some of the defendants, not close in a in a friendly way, but close in an intimate way. He got to know them very well, especially Hermann Goering, and he developed he

special relationship with during it special in degree of closeness, and these two men were quite quite in personality and in in narcissism and then faith and confidence in their ability to manipulate others. These are both very strong willed man, killing him during and one and when setting outcome of his time with during for Kelly was to see some of them self reflected in what he saw in Gering. He had a Kelly had absolutely no illusions about Kelly about during's criminal qualities, bad qualities, but he also saw a lot of.

Horrible qualities, enduring charm, intelligence, sense of humor thoughtfulness, and it was very perplexing to Kelly how such a man with such undeniable gifts could have committed which horrible crimes, and so that's really the the the setting in which a lot of the book takes place while now, let's go back because it really does unfold like a mystery in terms of coming in coming. Obviously, some conception of the perception, of what he may find from studies He was very anxious to again what his official role was, but what he had in terms of ambition, what he want to learn from this 'cause it a very dedicated and driven and so let's go a little bit back, because his family stays in

Stays in the US while he goes over to like you say Oxenberg and then Nuremberg. So tell us a little bit about Douglas M Kelly before he to this historic, trials and and. Interview these nazis. So tell us a little bit about his background. His wife is children. What he was like and then and then and then what transpired so that he became involved with the Nazis at Nuremberg Well, Douglas Kelly was a remarkable man by by his upbringing and by his personal qualities. He grew up in a family that was well known in northern California. He spent a lot of time growing up in his childhood years in a town called Truckee,

in northern California, near Lake Tahoe, and his grandfather was an important man in this town of Truckee. He was a newspaper publisher and a in a historian and fact his Kelly's Grand Father, Charles Mcglashan, was the first historian too. Gather it to research and gather information and write about the Donner Party tragedy of the nineteenth century, in which is a group of West westward, bound travelers heading to California, got caught in a terrible snow storm in the Sears and had to winter in those awful conditions, many of them died and those who lived ended up eating cannibalizing. The remains of those who

nine and right and and in Kelly's grandfather's home was a museum of Donner Party memorabilia. So Kelly grew up in that kind of setting, and he went studied at the University of California at Berkeley, attended medical school at the University of California and did further graduate studies at Columbia, University and returned to California. To head up a hospital called the San Francisco psychopathic Hospital, but very early into his time there, as director of that facility America entered World war. Two and join the military was sent to Europe and was working in the army, psychiatric service, psychiatric hospitals in Europe, but that were primarily helping soldiers

who had suffered what was then commonly known as shell shocked, but with Dr Kelly would called combat exhaustion trauma in essence, from being in a combat situation or from the stresses combat and he developed some very innovative ways of treating combat exhaustion. So that's why he was in Europe. He he had. Meanwhile it before he went to Europe to the to the field of battle had married Socially upward mobile young woman named Vivian Hill, nickname dookie. And they had not yet had children, but but they were separated for many years, while Doctor Kelly was in the army service and at the time the war ended when the army was when the when the military

The authorities were looking for a psychiatrist to examine these captive nazis Kelly was among the very highest ranking of the psychiatrists in in the army. Service at the time and another notable thing about Dr Kelly was he become over the years. One of the first and best expert in the United States on the use of the Russia ink blot test and have used it quite a bit. He was a considered, a very skilled, talented interpreter of Russia test results. In the end, he himself put a lot of faith in that test. It's in ways that it's not used anymore. It is still used at times as a per. Now is a personality assessment Kelly another psychiatrist back then were using it often as a way to diagnose psychiatric disorders as well,

So that's why he brought the were shock with him to Nuremberg and used it to study the Nazis. The other thing I want to ask you is that in his early work, just previous going to Luxembourg in Nuremberg with these nazis, you said he had was involved with the study of psychopathology is Is there any evidence that he thought that that's what he would find with these? Nazis, especially most of them that they were that's what they were cycle path. Yes, he he was, he was a psychiatrist and at the time he believed that, if, if somebody was exhibiting deviant behavior, then there had to be make that recruits to it and that it was his job to find those roots. So,

Wind, after all, his testing and interviewing of the Nazi prisoners in Nurnberg, he did not find psychiatric routes to their behavior They really turned his world upside down and it's one of the reasons why, when Dr Kelly return to the He abandoned clinical psychiatry and instead took up the stuff, be in the teaching of criminology. So, if psychiatry couldn't give him the answers that he wanted in figuring out the behavior of people like the Nazis, that he thought maybe criminology could explain their criminal behaviors, who had really upset and turn Doctor Kelly inside out that his field of psychiatry couldn't give him the answers he wanted. Now he didn't get the answers that he wanted, but it wasn't from lack of trying.

So tell us especially about Hermann Goering in terms of when he was first captured in in Luxembourg, he had a certain attitude about the folding events and he was It was quite wrong about those but tell us about the meeting of Kelly and Herman Gering well, it was a. It was a notable meeting Kelly during came into the hands of the allies. In quite a state, he had he been captured by the US army and flown to Luxembourg and at the time of his capture, he was addicted to a narcotic called Para coding. He was taking up to one hundred Para coding tablets per day and In addition to that, he was very, very

overweight too, so part of what Dr Kelly saw, something that he must do with Herman gerring immediately if during was to survive in good health. To this future trial that was coming was to help during break his dependence on Para coding and also some lose a great deal of weight. So a lot of their early relationship. There. Early interactions revolved around those tasks and with Kelly's help during did a completely break his addiction to pair coding. Just as an aside here I mentioned earlier, the document, the boxes full of documents and artifacts that I looked at at Kelly.

Son Doug's house and among those artifacts, was a vial filled with about thirty Para coding tablets that during had brought with him wow kredible capture So anyway, Kelly was also successful in helping during lose a great deal of weight, so much so that none of his clothing fit him anymore But then, once those two medical problems were overcome, then A lot of their interactions had took place in these discussions that Kelly and during had very intense discussions at times, enduring cells during, like all the other. Twenty two of the defendants was held in solitary confinement for most of the time and during was eager,

to have company to have conversation, and so the two men spoke a lot and spoke a lot about the events of the war Kelly asked during along with the other defendants killing us during two. Write an autobiography that included details of of his past and in medical details, and they in it quickly the way it it quickly big size each other up and began to practice. Talents of manipulation upon one another, and I think they were both aware of this, but they could they could do things for each other. They could help each other during, for instance, was quite concerned about his his family, his wife and

is very young daughter who were far away and in the growing had not heard from them for a long time. So Kelly helped during by carrying letters that Gary has written to Emmy, Goering, the wife and and also to add a the dog. And Kelly also provided during with that conversation and intellectual stimulation that he craved and also a sounding board for Gering's ideas that he would develop during these months and then present in his own defense during the trial that was to

It Kelly, on the other hand, was also manipulating and wanted to needed during. It is one of the Lynch pin of his study. He during was the highest ranking german official in captivity. He was the best known and he was in in many ways and Kelly's estimation. The most interesting because of his very apparent intellectual gifts? So that's how the relationship between the two men formed and Kelly certainly did form relationships with others in the group. Others among the twenty two Rudolf Hess joined the group in October, one thousand nine hundred and forty five. He had been captured in England several years before and in several others to Kelly got to know all of them

very well and what was his role in Hitler's government for those who don't know. Well at the time has was captured. He had the title of Deputy Fuhrer that sounds like he. He Mickey was in second in command, but that is not the case. Skirring at that time was was Hitler's designate, successor, but he was. He was high up in the leadership and he was off a mouthpiece of the government, often introduce Hitler and others, and Nazi rallies. But in one forty one his who had never been completely mentally stable, Got the idea that he could broker a peace of sorts between Germany and Great Britain and he

on his own initiative- flew a plane across the english channel and landed in Scotland and for it he was arrested immediately and asked for an audience with Winston Churchill to discuss. Is it kind of brokered peace? Churchill would have nothing to do with him and Hess was and in England for the remainder of the war and began showing some signs of mental disturbance. And the issue of paranoia they were packing their food items, food that has would refuse to eat and sugar and cookies, and things like that because he believed they were might be point. And Kelly, gathered later gathered these up. When has appeared in Nuremberg and brought them home, and these two are among the artifacts that I saw in the box- is well now.

Gearing being the right hand, man to Hitler also made contact with the allies. What when did this happen? What what was said the allies. What did he believe he could do well during head talk before the war during had talked with various British officials who had been in Germany when, when there is no state of war yet between the two countries and had talked about various ways of preventing

or but Kelly believe it, and I think, I'm in agreement with him here that that during was not making serious peace overtures. I think he was. These were more on the lines of sounding out the English to see what they would accept and what they wouldn't, and during was a hundred percent for hit that in favor of Hitler's plans at the beginning of the war and continued to be very faithful to Hitler throughout almost the entire war until the final days and even in captivity in Nuremberg during did, did have minor criticisms of Hitler's conduct during the war, but never criticize the german government conduct

or method of waging war or breaking of treaties during was rather proud of the way they had broken treaties and during to the very end, would not would not break his allegiance to the nazi government and he tried to persuade his fellow prisoners to stand in solidarity with him in that what was. His attitude when questioned about Hitler's idea of this superiority and, of course, as a result, the inferiority of mass extermination of jewish people. What how did the How do they defend that? Or did they? What was their viewpoint when Kelly interview them. Or during and the others it's difficult

to know what during really thought, because he was always with Kelly and with others, always in the process of manipulate, and presenting a a face of some kind. What he told Kelly was that he didn't he he did not join. That is during did not join the party because he was a big believer in the nine. The philosophies that he g instead, he joined the party early on in the early nineteen twenties because he was a small party, small group that was working to overthrow work. What many Germans considered the poisonous provisions of the tree

riverside and there's a party that hit the green blade. He could rise quickly to power in it was. He was an opportunist he wanted to to gather power and lead, and he saw the Nazi Party as a way to do this. That is the means to do this, and this is what he explained to Kelly. He claimed not to be anti semitic but he certainly went along more than went along. He was a designer, an architect of the Holocaust. He never faced up to that. Never admitted that in in his talks with Kelly or in the trial. So it is. I said it's hard to know what during really thought, but he presented himself as a patriot.

As somebody who wanted power found a way sound a ladder to climb and took his chance. No part of the ss initially for Kelly is to find out again he doesn't know he has some assumptions. I guess a preconceptions he it administers IQ. I tests to these twenty two nazis, starting with gearing and and some of the others that you you mention in the book. What was the result of those like you test with the I q test. Results were were quite interesting, almost all of the twenty two held before the first trial.

Scored very high and during was among the two or three highest during's iq tested at one hundred and thirty, eight, the lowest who tested one hundred and six was Julius Streicher, who was, A newspaper publisher published a viciously anti semitic news paper called their Stermer and he probably not because of his relatively low intelligence, but for a whole host of other reasons was not very popular among his fellow considered him, the vial and crude and rude and a eight, for in all kinds of unflattering, qualities that they saw in him, but the IQ tests showed that the that these german leaders, both the

civilian leaders in the military leaders, were by and large, very intelligent man which, which shows you that intelligence and and and high moral standing or not at all, necessarily two qualities that go together. Right now you, as we mentioned, as you mentioned Kelly, was a really big the kitten believer in the roshak tests testing. So what were the results with Herman gerring and mention a few of the other characters too, because there's some strong characters, Rosenberg Ribbentrop, and he says. Well, maybe you can tell what some of the results were, starting with Hermann Goering well when, when Kelly tested, bring using the roshak inkblot. He found

the very willing participants during love doing this kind of thing, because he was born and because he also took a as a professional interest in in these kinds of assessments. He he he told Kelly that he wished that he's german air force had been able to use this kind of test to assess personality of that. However, in that was really unknowingly, an ironic comment, because he was the not see governments anti semitic policies that led a large, very large number of jewish physicians and psychiatrists to leave Germany before the war and and that's why these kinds of tests were not commonly used in the german government, but with during love, doing this kind of thing and he put a lot of effort into his responses. Some of his responses were quite a

Genitive Kelly saw a lot of imagination and creativity in during his responses. Some of gorings responses seemed to Kelly to be self preferential. So he said that he saw in one picture winning inkblot during said that he saw fat goblin, which Kelly thought could be a reference to an unconscious reference to himself so what Kelly found in Gering through the roshak was some narcissism, A very high regard for himself, some disregard for the feelings of other people. Some

imaginative qualities, but nothing that would in Kelly's mind point to the serious psychological disorder? He did see that, though, in one of the other, the defendants- and that was a man named Robert Goulet, who was the head of the german organization, called the german labour front, which was kind of a managed trade trade union of all german workers. A government run union of Workers and Robert late gave very poor responses to the ink blot he could not correct thanks a lot. You can not correctly recognized colors. His answers really didn't make much sense in on the basis of

Robert Lazar responses. Kelly did diagnosed him with a a disorder or disease or a mental condition. He believes that lay had damage frontal lobe in his brain and Hi Kelly speculated that this may have occured, because during World WAR one lay had been a pilot and his plane that crashed and may have suffered brain damage at that time and Kelly had so much faith. An interest in this diagnosis of frontal lobe damage that terrible thing happened just before the trial started. We managed to commit suicide in his cell and right away Kelly wanted that man's brain so that it could be examined to see if the frontal lobe

damage that had predicted. Actually was there so Kelly asked the prison pathologists to remove the brain, and then they smuggled it out of the prison shifted to the surgeon General's office in Washington in a is a little crate that was marked spices and the surgeon general's office. Another pathologist didn't examination and told Kelly. Yes, there was evidence here or a lot of damage Kelly was jubilant that he had correctly done this diagnosis. However, a little while later the same pathologist told backtracked backed off a little bit and said: well, maybe not so some of the others,

in varying ways cooperated with the roshak test. Rudolph Hess really did not give answers at all resisted, giving answers, thinking that that would prevent Kelly from giving him a psychological assessment. It didn't have that effect, because even when, even when a subject taking the roshak intentionally, gives a bad answer or refuses to answer, there is still other things the examiner, can look at in order to come to some findings and some of the others who took part Alfred Rosenberg, who was who kind of had an odd role in the nazi government. He was sort of the party philosopher among the Nazis, and he did serve as minister of the Eastern cupi territories. Also during a very bloody period of the war and Rosenberg,

was extremely unimaginative in his roshak responses. But again there is nothing that pointed to some some kind of psychiatric disorder like. Now Kelly and gearing again, I have this. The relationship that you say this not maybe and admiration Kelly does not seem to be seems to be unbiased. Basically, I don't see him, you know how being so charmed by during, but what was gearing wanted to do with this new era trial and that Kelly was aware of in terms of what he had to say and if he was going to use this trial is some form of not bully pulpit, but You know a stage for himself to be able to express some of the things that he wanted to say. Tell us about that

those conversations that they had between them well bring was in an interesting position as the trial neared and occured, because he was the biggest Nazi left standing Hitler. Had committed suicide. Several of the other Nazi leaders had committed suicide or disappeared so that left during and he leave that he had that this trial was an opportunity for, for him to build upon his legacy. If the others were going to do

part without getting a word in because of their deaths and suicides. Will then during was going to get his word in, and he told the other defendants when they finally had a chance to confer during the trial that if they stood together and did not waver in their support of each other and of the nazi policies that they would be remembered in Germany and through Europe, they would be the most memorialized in and decide upon, remembered, remembered well. So this is one thing that during was trying to do, is very self serving and really pointed to goring's narcissism, because he was, he was mostly concerned with his own image in he. He he knew that most is that he and in most of his fellow defendants, would be sentenced to death.

And so he thought this was their chance to get their word out in in the early months of the trial. He he did a very good job of making his case and in and overcoming the attacks of the allied prosecutors. But that fell apart by the middle of the trial and he and he wasn't able to hang on to that advantage and so losing that advantage. There was still one way that during could control things, and that was the way that his life would end as turned out during an many of the others, were sentenced to death by hanging during believe that hanging execution was a very the mini is way to go out. He equated exit by hanging with the fate of common criminals? Of course, the the

tribunal had judged him to be the criminal one of the worst kinds, but during saw him, so more as a national leader in felt that there were more dignified ways to go. And if you took advantage of that the night before he and the others were supposed to be paying. He. He swallowed a cyanide capsule one that he had had in the among his possessions the entire time since his capture, and it appears that the? U S an american guard, help him get access to one or two of those capsules that were in his luggage.

And he used it and took his own life. That way went out on his own terms and it's interesting the way that Kelly responded to this suicide. By this time. Kelly was no longer in Nuremberg and was in San Francisco. He heard about Kelly suicide. He did not during suicide. He did not expect during to take his own life, but he was in admiration of it and he thought that during had succeeded in going out his way in defying the

the american authorities, and he believed that during may have it succeeded in establishing a legacy for himself. Fortunately, as it turned out that wasn't the case, but Kelly's auguring suicide is an example of a kind of suicide in which someone takes control manage, is their own fate and makes almost a theatrical statement of the death, something that will remain in people's memories. Influence them long after the person is gone. What did Kelly conclude in terms of is disregard for almost anyone around him. He said he was loyal. I guess is some Self is a soldier and he was loyal to his country, but Kelly, found that he really what didn't give a damn about almost anyone. But what did he make of his affair

ocean and obvious pain, from the treatment family again? we did? We didn't touch on that. He was involved with some art theft and so that didn't help his wife and his child's treatment. But tell us a little bit about what he made of that sort of dichotomy. Well it it really propelled perplexed Kelly during his affection for his family was January and and when during did not here for a long time from his wife and his daughter it,

very much depressed him and then and then, on the other hand, when during did hear, is through letters that Kelly carried did hear from his family. He was elated, so it was very perplexing to Kelly and part of what he could not figure out about The Nazis in general that these? These guys, who were in many cases family men could be, could be so evil. If, if that's the right word to be used in there in their official activities and the way they ran the war. So so Kelly was was perplexed. One listing thing that came out of Gering's concern

for his family was that there was a time when, during approach Kelly and during was worried that he would not survive his captivity, that his wife might not. So if, if that, if they both did not what what happened to their daughter yeah, who was just a young girl and in during Ask Kelly if he would get the dentist Kelly would adopt young if it came to that in a race are in the United States, which is- shocking unfathomable. Almost that during would make a request like this. I was not able to find out exact hey how Kelly responded to that, except that he brought the news of it back to his wife when he returned to the states but

but it it shows. You know the level of concern that during had for his family. There was a part in your book to wear Kelly is offered a ring from gehring. I button said something else happens with possible that that exchange. That's very telling, I believe the right when during was arrested, he had all kinds of valuables in his possession. Jewelry gemstones gold cigarette cases is watch is also a large amount of cash german cash, and all of these were documented in some inventories that I found at the national archives and going was not able to keep these items in his cell with him, but they were store

with the rest of it is with his excess, clothing and other belongings, and he was able, at times to get guards to bring some of these items to him so During one conversation that Kelly and during we're having in during cell, I guess at the time when burning was feeling, especially warm or convivial, towards Kelly, he offered to give Kelly this gigant emerald that he had. That was surely very, very valuable and Kelly had to refuse he didn't refuse, and during was a little bit put

out by that? But instead had another idea that he could give Kelly something that he wouldn't have to refuse, and that was an autographed photographic portrait of during his all his glory um in also Kelly did, except that in that bid was among the items that I found in the boxes. When I examine Doctor Kelly's papers, that's amazing now getting back to Kelly's work. He has an idea for writing a book and he stay is like he's, like you said, for the did six months or so. In about examining these, or was a little bit longer than that, the amount of time that Kelly spent with the Nazis Zocher area yeah. That was about five months. Ok, now his plans for a book there's a.

Another interesting character that happens to come to Nuremberg and his name is Gilbert. All right, maybe kill, but he'll and he's a psychologist. So tell us briefly about that relationship and why Gilbert was sent to the prison. Did they collaborate at all Kelly and Gilbert. Dr Gilbert, who was a Phd psychologist arrived at the prison after Kelly, had already been there for two or three months. And Doctor Gilbert official role was to be a translator for Kelly Gilbert was fluent in German. He was American born, but his his parents were both from Germany, so he was fluent in German

and a butt. As a psychologist, he had some of the same interests as Kelly and saw this this time that he was spending with the Nazis. Also, is it a great opportunity for study and that Gilbert was different from Kelly in several ways. His fluency in German was one thing that separated him from Kelly, who is not fluent in German and needed the services of a translator for some of the prison for talking

with some of the prisoners, but Doctor Gilbert was also jewish, and that set him apart from Kelly, who was not jewish in how the prisoners regarded and approached him? Many of the prisoners professed not care that they said it didn't influence them that Doctor Gilbert was jewish, but some of the most anti semitic up the prisoners. A special The striker in Rosenberg did have problems with Gilbert and also during did not get along with him for personality reasons. They they just did not click, but

because of their similar interests. Gilbert and Kelly decided at one point that they would collaborate in in their study of the Nazis and produce a book together when all this was over. That was their plan, but as time went on Kelly and GUILT Gilbert, it became apparent that they didn't work very well together. They didn't like each other, all that much and so Kelly when he left Nuremberg in January, one thousand nine hundred and forty six by that It's clear that he had given up on the idea of collaborating with Gilbert, although he may not have told Gilbert this, and he went home with a lot of the papers that they had jointly worked on in a lot of the tests that, if they had jointly administrated administered and Gilbert, was understandably

very angry about this, he shot Kelly had broken their agreement, but Kelly went home and decided to do a book on his own, which was the book twenty two cells in Nuremberg when Gilbert date for the remainder of the trial and then went home and then went to work on his own book, which is called Nuremberg diary. Both the both of these you can. You can still find from used booksellers and Nuremberg. Diary may still be in print it, but they keep. They came to somewhat different conclusions about the Kelly believe that the as we discussed that the testing and interviewing show that they were not mentally the were not mentally disordered Gilbert. I believe that some of them were mentally disordered, so he had a different interpretation of the test results, but it's funny that their two books came out

within months weeks of each other and Gilbert is the one that had the is more read today. I think because it gives the message that these not the criminals were exceptional in some way. Gilbert would never call them monsters. Maybe he would have Kelly would not have. He would have said that they were people a lot like people all over the world, including in the United States or anywhere in North America, who will take advantage of situations and step on the backs of others. If given the chance, so that it pretty much what the relationship was between Gilbert and Kelly. It was not good now You say they both came out around the same time that really

pretty well anger Kelly, didn't it that that would happen, but also What was the response to you say that he said that the Nuremberg diaries the more well read book. But what was the profession? response to the work that he has done and what was the response to what Kelly it done and and how did Kelly react to those reactions? Well, I'll start with the public response. There is a great deal of public interest and when Kelly returned to the United States, he did a lot of lecturing all over the country. Talking about the personalities of the men, he admitted Nuremberg and giving character, sketches and telling anecdotes, but also delivering with his talks, a warning which was that, since he believed these men were not psychiatrically exceptional, that there is to put

it for such men to arise anytime, anyplace and, in fact, Kelly saw such men arising at the time- and this is the nineteen forties in the Us South, the US segregationist politicians who, who. Believed in racial differences and Manip related their constituents based on there perception of racial differences. Kelly believe that the southern politicians were quite cynically using the ignorance and misperceptions of

the southern citizens to acquire power and he spoke out a lot against them so that the popular on the public's with public took away from Kelly's work. Other psychiatrists the response was different. There was a lot of controversy about these roshak tests of the Nazis and in fact those tests are probably the most studied roar shocks in all of history. Over the decades, many groups of psychiatrists have examine them in half

all in into two camps regarding them. One is a camp that agrees with Kelly and has not found anything or much unusual or exceptional in them, and then there was the camp that would agree with Gilbert that there were signs of psychiatric disorder. The you can see in these were shocked, so the in the in that this dispute has has gone on for a long time and has continued until quite recently, there was a book published Kendrick fifteen years ago, in which the team Again, looked at these were shocked and brought in some new thinking, some new ways of assessing them and examining them, and pretty

which came down on Kelly Side, that there wasn't a lot unusual to be found in them. What Kelly categorized. He compared businessmen. Disney city said that this, type of mentality he could see in aggressive businessman, with with a focus school like setting up a new government. Yeah, we did see the nazi government as a kind of corporate hierarchy. He compared he paired the nazi leaders to a corporate board with Hitler as the ceo and then the other leaders is controllers of their own areas, not can getting very well to one another and in fighting over what I think today would be called silos within the company,

and so that that was one way in which Hitler looked at at the Nazis, but also he found that the trade that were apparent in the rear shock, some of the narcissism and the single mindedness that he saw in the in the assessment. These are not necessarily bad traits and, if are quite common and Kelly, thought that they were especially common among two groups of people. In America and in those were politicians, and also the people involved in business, and he he thought that someone could use these. The someone with a sort of personality could be very successful in business and certainly do no harm to anybody, but that under the right circumstances, the right environment? Perhaps some of these people might

less for more power in commit horrible heinous crimes. Now when Kelly gets back to America? What's interesting in the book, I find it fascinating. How vivid you paint this picture of Coming back home He has his own little den. Is this beautiful home very much like his father is influenced about collecting, artifacts and exhibiting them in the home. It's a little bit more about the home and in this family life, and what was this brought mind David Part make Kelly. What was he really like? As a family man, a husband and a father, eventually Kelly family settled in Berkeley. California, where Kelly had gotten a quite prestigious position. As a professor not of psychiatry but of criminology, and they said

build into a house in a area called KEN using ten, which is a bedroom community of Berkeley, quite quite affluent and beautiful and

Kelly did have a an office within his home which overlooked the bay and and had a fantastic view of the bay, including a few of Alcatraz Island in by this time, the Kelly's he in two key and had three children, two boys and a girl Doug defer the person away head financially tracked down was the oldest of the three and Kelly. Was it difficult father to have? He was a section this. He was a workaholic. He was an alcoholic and he had a violent temper and he drove himself very very hard, and I believe that this happened because of the way he was raised

but also because of the the things he had seen in Nuremberg, his failure to come up with a psychiatric reason for the Nazis, behavior his change of professional, focused, criminology and um, and in the. Rightful similarities that I believe he found between himself and curry. So he just worked himself terribly hard. He had the children. If Doug describe this to me and. In interviews many interviews. I had with him that the children knew that their father loved them, but he was a rough father and they never knew what kind of mood he would be in whether he would be sad. From beer, beer, drinking or not- and there was a time when Doug contemplated killing his father with an axe and all of this came to a climate.

Bad family situation in there had been a time earlier when, during an argument with his wife and Kelly, often fought with his wife, he had fired a gun at her into their lower in the the bullet. Hole was still there and the floor of their home under carpet, so it all came to a climax, new years day in nineteen, fifty eight and I'm not giving a spoiler here and talking about this, because it's described in the opening pages of the book when Kelly and his wife did have tearable argument.

It during a family gathering the children. Were there an when Kelly's father was there Kelly stormed out of the kitchen where they had been arguing? He went upstairs into his office, stayed up there awhile and Kelly and all kinds of things up in that office of his. He had skulls and medical equipment and laboratory equipment and dangerous chemicals, and he came down with something in his paw. In the end screamed out to his family. I can't take this anymore, it too much and he popped this chemical that he had in his hand into his mouth and it turned out to be signed. I the same poison that during had you

is to take his it's like an. It was not long less than a minute and Kelly was dead, and I was able to paint a detailed picture of that scene because Doug witnessed it yeah, so he was ten years old at the time. It has a very clear memory of it and it was horrible thing to hear from him in a very difficult thing to write to, but That said, Doctor Kelly's life ended yeah, it's an incredible story of a man, searching for answers, and- and I mean this- this that was the forefront of psychiatry is highly regarded, and he really did look at this opportune. He took this opportunity very, very seriously and and again it seems like in your book. Not not.

So much of a conclusion, but my own conclusion. I think that that he was just haunted by those demons of of the questions he couldn't answer and and again in this lecture, see it almost The cautionary tale that that they weren't like Gilbert had described these aberrations, these monsters, but that The scary thing so, I don't know if that's the conclusion you came to as well, that you man was just haunted by his. Inadequate season coming up with answers for again the question of his life. Yes, it Well, I agree with that and and

Other thing that contributed to it all was hi there Kelly by the end, was turning on himself. He was more than frustrated he. He was angry at himself and then to leave to that. He was in a an unfriendly world. Tragically, he his his his wife, had urged him over the years to seek psychiatric help he had because he thought it would destroy his image for, for you still known as a as a great psychiatrist and as an important criminologist, and for someone like that to pursue psychiatric help. He thought would just destroy his image and it probably would have destroyed his self image unfortunately was part of this credit

frustration that you write in the book, twenty two cells, he he bought the rights for the book, I think for while a measly sum anyway even though it was we're talking many years ago, but and as we you know from publishing. There must be some reason why you were able to buy the rights, so the book wasn't as successful as he had hoped for at all. Was it no? It wasn't it. It did not sell many copies and it's it's it's hard to know the exact reason for that. I speculate that. The reason was that it gave a message that at the public didn't want to hear, which was that the Nazis were not monsters. So the book did help was a did, get speaking engagements and he som

public speaking and did a lot of that, but it certainly didn't bring him the kind of money that he hoped and it went. It was out of print in just a few years He did briefly go back and print out for a few years after his death, but as is out of print and has remained out of print for a long time, kredible. Yes. Well, it's it was an amazing story, Jack, and what do you get from at the end of all of this? What do you come away from especially learning and what was the most profound thing that you got from writing this and doing this entire project. Strangely, working on this book, We think a lot about my own profession, J listen man and in biography, because What I do in my writing is is sometimes similar to

with Doctor Kelly did in his interactions with Nazis, I interview people try and draw conclusions about their motivations and the reasons for their behavior and in Doctor Kelly's case. He was he was going face to face with some pretty fearsome characters, people who had done some terrible terrible, and he ended up not being able to explain that. So it made me reflect a little on my work, when I'm writing about people who are difficult to explain and who have done some terrible things.

What kind of jeopardy and my putting myself in and and and by extension, other journalists and biographers as well, if he was it's just a sobering thing to think about the effect that it that it has on a when we write about trouble people who live. Criminal things is something that something that I may be people who more often right. True crime books have to grapple with, but this was my opportunity to. This is my time to grapple with it, and it's given me a lot of food for thought. Yes, I think your book is is not typical of true crime books, but I think it I think, We were bang on in your assessment in that I think the

Authors must suffer at some point in the Y and there are at the end of a book project, there's probably more questions, then definitive answers and. And so I mean if you had a it's a good thing. I think that there are a lot of questions at the end that the. The purpose of literature, I think, to make us think and formulate questions. Yes, sometimes answers too, but sometimes the questions are more important than in the answers. Yes, absolutely Well, I want to thank you, Jack for coming on and talking about this incredible book than that seeing the psychiatrist Herman Gerring doctor. English M Kelly and a fatal meeting of minds at the end of world war. Two are fascinating. Book. I will thank you very much. How can people contact you or you do the Facebook thing is there anyway? If anybody is interested or again

any contact information you might be able to provide for those interested the best way for leaders to reach me is through my website and that. The url for that website, is l hide come and that e hyphen ha I dot com. And if someone wants to write to me there's a place on the website, they can write to me and place they can find out more about this book and some of the other books that I've written two that that's the best way you can follow me on Twitter as well. My twitter handle is Jack, underscore e l h a I am not much of a facebook person, so the website is the best way. Absolutely, while I want to thank you once again Jack for this engaging interview, and thank you very much and

hope to talk to you again real soon. Thank you. Thank you for the great discussion Dan. I appreciate it. Well have a great night, goodnight goodnight I don't get the flavors of computer back in a big way, we're talking, pumpkin doughnuts, pumpkin, muffins, pumpkin, munchkins, donut holes, ovoid, pumpkin, coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen copy, pumpkin latte, scanned the exciting new cinnamon sugar pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin flavored everything at Dunkin America runs on Dunkin and Pumpkin K Cup pod still limited time. Offer participation can kick it used under license.

I don't get the flavors of computer back in a big way, we're talking, pumpkin doughnuts, pumpkin, muffins, pumpkin, munchkins, donut holes, ovoid, pumpkin, coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen copy, pumpkin, latte scanned the exciting new cinnamon sugar pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin flavored everything at Dunkin America runs on Dunkin and Pumpkin K Cup pod still limited time. Offer participation can kick it used under license.