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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan asking. Good evening this is your house desert ass. He for the programme to murder the more shocking killers into crime, history and the opposite, a written about them, the ninety nine a young woman, was strangled on jogging path near the home of Pat Brown and her family Brown suspected the young

and who is renting a room in her home and quickly uncovered strong evidence. That pointed to him, but the police, Mister is merely a housewife with an overactive imagination. It would be so. Years before her former border would be brought in for questioning, but the night Brown took action to solve. The murder was the beginning of her life's work that Rome is now under nations. Few female criminal profiles sleuth, who assist police apartments in victims, families by analyzing, both and behavioral evidence to make the most tific determination possible about who committed a crime. Brown has analyzed many dozens of seemingly hopeless cases and brought new investigative avenues, delight in the profiler Brown opens her case files to take readers behind the scenes of bizarre sex crimes. Domestic murders and mysterious death going face to face with killers, rapists and brutalize victims is

air up close first person. Look at the real world that police and profilers as they investigate crimes, the good and bad the cover up's and the successes. The book this evening. That will be discussing is the profile there. My life hunting serial killers and psychopaths with my special guest Pat Brown, welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Pat Brown hi hi Dan. How are you this evening very good? Thank you. Thank you very much for agreeing to this program and for those that were trying to listen to a couple of days ago were on now. So finally, we had some technical problem, difficulty assessment. We got over some stuff and apparently now none of us have eighty two. On a Friday, you and dad said we don't like concerning better a fluid now in the very first chapter of the profile. You start right at the very beginning of this story as it turned,

but to be an amazing journey in the end. Now take us back to a time when you and your family were asked to rent a room to a certain young man right. Well, you know sometimes he's a really things do happen in life and we just don't see it coming and we certainly don't think it's going to be life changing. Certainly much at my life set out how the meal as too I plan to live. It had three children. I was home schooling, and that was pretty much my intention. Let's call them till they went to college and just you know- and I was starting- they were studying sign language. I was going to become a sign language interpreter and I was beginning to do some chirping, so I had this probably peaceful, suburban life hand. Then um we're in the process of

updating our third child and we require fingerprint everybody who came into the house. It was getting a little bit difficult to get people in and we needed the money. You know one one. One: income in the Washington DC area doesn't exactly keep you going, so this is even the days before recession, so I needed to get some extra in the house, and so I rented rooms- and I was have a little bit of trouble getting people in. So one of my girlfriend said to me: hey: will you rent a room to the guy? I just hired at my job 'cause we're dating and he wants to look closer to us and we're going to the same church and- and I was skeptical because he was not a student and some of things. I warn people about what I talk about, how

get ourselves in trouble with the in relationships and would know how do we get psycho pass into our lives? I see it's because we're desperate were either too lonely, so we grab a guy and bring winners are boyfriend or we know who he is in this case. I needed money I mean quite correctly, and so, even though I was skeptical and not all that comfortable with having a slightly older guy with twenty six we're not a student come live in my home because he passed the fingerprints the only way to commanded. Got, fingerprinted came back claim and because he didn't have any bad habits that I knew about no drinking drinking drugging and all that stuff, I guess, were killing. Women apparently was not on the application for the room, but no you see- and ok, I needed the money. So I was just kind of willing to say: ok, let's give it a shot, and so I did and then he moved in and that was

mistake- and I wouldn't you know the time I just don't think that was that who would think it was going to be something like this. I mean somebody Wrencher that it's annoying and you want to get rid of him, but certainly don't think they're going to be somebody that that could be a psychopathic at somebody that could be a serial killer, but he started behaving strangely within quite frankly immediately and over the four weeks left in my s, there's just so many things. He did. You stick point what's wrong with this guy and my girlfriend decided the same thing until she broke up with him a month after he moved in, and it was the very day she told him that the relationship is over, that this girl was early, raped and murdered right between her house and mine, on a path that he walked and he had walked home from her house to my house and that's where the girl got murdered. Now

things you do you talk about strange behaviour, so I wanted to do to really establish that you know you. He moves into the house because it first you say that you are interested and put in having this guy and ear girlfriend. You know at least vouch for him. Your husband was a lovin uncomfortable, but does that was his based because he really want anybody else living in this house, ideally and you'd rather said, while he's a little bit strange, I mean he's, he seemed to be very tell us a little bit about his behavior, though, because at first it doesn't seem so weird and then you say quickly. It changes, but at first you talk about well, just a little strange behaviour. Lately tell us a little bit about his behavior and how accelerates and in just a few weeks right exact. You know, and I did what many people do. I excused certain peculiarity: or because you know it's a human beings. We also guilty, but judging other people showing us as well,

but he's perfect nobody's exactly like. We would be like that. You know we have to give them a little bit of a little bit of leeway there and then I looked at myself. I think. Ok, I'm kind of weird come a little bit weird. So should I say this guys If we are to live in my house, artistic studies got some intervene, avi Justice-

I don't think you know, but yes, there were things I tell people about when you're looking at psychopathic behaviour. Will you there's a thing called the cycle, Pappy checklist that was done by doktor rapid here, and he has specific things that set up those read those red flags of signals, things like being very manipulative thing, a pathological liar having grandiose thinking, there's like theirs, I ten of them in his checklist- and you know when they, when you start seeing those kinds of things than you can say. Maybe it is not just a little unusual or mukoki. You should start saying: there's something wrong with this person. That's exactly what happened with him and you left for an example we top of grandiose thinking. He would come up with stuff. It's just made. You stop and think

really does that will really happen to you or I was a special offers, wonder the favourite lines of all serial killers. Mohammed yeah. I say there are special ops. It's just unbelievable because you know being a normal army guy or normal AIR Force guy or having a normal job, isn't cool but being in special ops. There is something every guy wants to say, of course, most guys won't say: 'cause they're, not in special ops, but the serial killers often say that cycle mail cycle pass and I was kinda funny 'cause. I was chatting with my my son, and I wish we were talking about this particular special ops, a line that they use an mice, there's temporarily working as a bouncer in a bar

is Bing. This might be touring on the military personnel spelling to military intelligence. But with me, while I was waiting for a college documentation come in, he took this Java's bouncer and one of the more popular jobs for Psycho Pass is bouncer because it's you know with the power control jobs and you know just push people around, and so you know I'm about work and he came home when you step mom and she's. I said one and one of the guys I work with, I always start with a psychopath. He just told me he was in special laugh. So this was a kind of thing out sharing from the renter bizarre stories about his life in the military that just didn't make sense grandiose kind of things. People were always attacking him when he was walking home people jump out of the bushes and then stab him and me I'm thinking how come all these things keep happening to you. You know these crazy things and every

boy that he told would always be exaggerated to appoint writers, didn't believe it that's the logical line that we see from this People, it happens very quickly, I mean if you meet a person, I can see it necessarily in the first thirty minutes, which is hang around them for a number of days or weeks. Those things start showing up. So if you people considering dating you know this dating somebody accident getting into a relationship if they start seeing this stuff, they just want to run away really quickly. So your friend had he, you see the ring from WAR Williams and he said it is across one thousand dollars and she was sceptical and she went and got it appraised and it was fifty dollars more. So than that was

is what she felt was his pathological lying, and so she broke up with him now that, frankly, I want to mention something to talk about that ring. Do you know the girl? That would be the ballet dancer who just murdered in New York. She was, she was going to a college in Pennsylvania and I'm just liking on her name. I knew it last week because it was a big story of last week and she came home on her for her Thanksgiving holiday and she went missing out of her house and she was eventually found. Her body was found in a park nearby and then her boyfriend was arrested, and apparently she had this on again off, Can you make sure for the boyfriend? Well, my render, and this guy both did the same thing. Go out and got rings for their ladys, and they both came back in claimed that the warnings were real job. It costs them a whole lot of money, and this fellow

that killed the girl in New York turn out when she found out that the ring was worth twenty nine dollars Anne. She confronted him on it and my friend when, when she was, the ring by this fella living my house. He said I happy hunting on this. For months and months and months that you can't look down like really only on your month, which give me this extensive, a ring and she questioned. It was not a real ring, so she went down to the jeweler and she asked to get it appraised in the jewel. Looked at the far as I'm concerned, this is just a piece of junk jewelry and maybe even thirty dollars, maybe forty dollars well, when I eventually I went to his trash in his room. I found the receipt for that work and sure enough look he's a costume jewelry, so It's funny when I read this story about the girl, who is the dancer who was just murdered recently, and that was the same thing this celeb it so there's a lot of behaviors of

I have a very, very similar note, a big red light. Don't let's just now, not take us back to the day of the murder. What actually happened? You you, you know your book that your community I guess it's assembler, a suburb, so basically smaller community- that there has never been a reported murder before so tell us about an brighter and about you hearing the news and how you heard the news tell us about that. All tat. What we know- and I moved in this neighbourhood- it looked- he looked very safe and certainly certainly has been a very safe community- that I've lived in this area for twenty five years, and that was the first murder in our area. I answered, since then has been the only murdered so we're talking about along time. Now, if you, if you don't drive down a mile down the road, ok, things are getting bad down there, but I mean our little community just happens to be this little teeny area with its own police department and

we're near university, but we just have kind of a small long clip and it's pretty nice, and so we kind of live very comfortably in the town. Never thinking much about anything like this going on and I was out of town so that night and when I came back my friend called me up and she said, did you hear and I'm like about lot and she's like well just at the softball field, and this is where my boys played sports. My daughters played softball at with the field play Tanec meal. Three times a week, the men were playing softball and one of the guys had a shot that went into the stream beyond the field and when they went to retrieve the ball, they found the naked bug of this girl in the stream and that pretty much freaked everybody out, because I mean you know, can just matches finding something like that and just whatever it is absolutely horrified. But one of the sad things about this case, and

and this is reality in our world of crime crime and how jurisdictions handle cases the girl was from Texas, and so she she came to this area to work. She was an intern in the area or family was not here and she was not from here and because of that, I don't think enough. People paired ok, no! She was not want to hours when they feel bad about it. They felt sad, but oddly enough, the way most reward for their own safety. You know what about us, you know the window unsafe, but because she was it you know somebody from another area. I don't think there was a lot of pressure on the police department from the locals to solve the grunt. They just they just as soon as they just kind of just disappeared, really quickly nobody's nobody talked about it within a week. Nobody took the crime anymore. Now shopping,

right now. I think it's the next day. If I'm not correctly, you speak to walk and what is react. What is his reaction when you speak of the murder on the baffling yeah? Well, you know I definitely thought this. You know I knew he walked that path and I knew my friend had broken up with him. So so I asked him. He comes down to the kitchen he's just getting his little steerable out and I'm like so you say wow. We are we on the task class last night where that girl was killed and he just around and he looked at me and then he looked away, crossed look back crosses on this year, but I love the past and cut across the stream two girls found in behind a bowling alley and came up on the main road and came back in that way, which made no sense whatsoever 'cause. He would you know going away seven toward it and then you ve got up and left the room and you don't have a say

you're got sometimes I'm on your. Your reaction to things that happen to Becker often said see you go to great book called the gift of fear and Gavin to Becker says in their pay attention when they hear fear stands up on your neck, so might be a good reason for it and I spent taking what the heck what a creepy response it just yet so he had no no empathy toward the girl that was murdered. He didn't freak out over it. I mean I just thought it was a weird response. I mean if I knew I had been walking at the location that a murder victim was found. First be creeped out by the thought. Oh my god, you know. First of all, I could have been the one killed or I could have run into this or just how gruesome or in his particular case, you would have thought he would have had some fear, because you know he could become a suspect. You know, even if I was special just he was on the path of time this girl was killed, should have made him get a little worried that maybe the police will come knocking on the door,

but he showed no emotion whatsoever, and that is again. One of the signs of psychopathy is shallow emotion. Just just not things just don't register and they just don't respond properly, and so they don't really care. I need it now. Who did you tell all this? Did you did you talk to your husband Tony? Or did you talk to your friend who it's called you or who? Did you speak to about this and what you decide? What do you conclude? Well, let's turkey things where, when you start any suspicious of something you really have you want it, you want to kind of flesh it out with somebody else. I did talk to my my husband at the time Tony and he well. He was just one of these people that never like confrontations. He didn't. He didn't like things that were disturbing. Like things didn't like things that would change anything, he likes things very stable and so his response was don't know just being ridiculous

I didn't, like the guy interesting ridiculous, any kind of to walk away from it easier left alone and ignored and to deal with it. So, let's back didn't, might give me much feedback yeah. So I really there wasn't it wasn't? A lot of people have talked about it because I really want to short. I was telling people have to the point in time when I did with the next day when he went to work. I went to the library with the children and I I took out a look books and started looking

cycle path and looked at Robert Harrison psychopathic Checklist as the first time I heard about the psychopathic checklist already with yeah. I had never looked into anything. This was not my field before I was not under criminal justice. I was not into serial killers, I was not. I was not a true crime show watcher. I just wasn't into that stuff. I was more interested in anthropology and cultures and different. You know I just my children raising my kids and teaching them, so I really wasn't into that. So I went to the section in the library- and I just I saw that book and I pulled it out and when I started going through the psychopathic checklist, I started going. Oh boy, you know this. Certainly in snatching this guide and because I wasn't I wasn't comfortable with may

in conclusion, based on just some whim of mine, I thought I might be completely out to lunch on this one, and I really didn't want to rush into the police department, make a fool of myself. First of all, and also accused a completely innocent person, had blow something up at a portion and accused him of something with absolutely nothing to go on. So I really wanted to make sure I wasn't being ridiculous, and so I went to the library and I got this information and it it only supported what I now the feelings I had about. What was going on and that's what encouraged me when I got back home to them, put on a pair of gloves and go to his room and see whether there is evidence in his room, because I didn't, I thought that better find something more to go to the place where the weapon just my innuendoes, is there anything in his room that would actually linked to the crime where and why did you find in the bedroom? Well, you know it's funny. Looking back on it now, I think why didn't I

I must have looked at this car 'cause. He had a dead car outside with a car with the tags on it. He wasn't driving because we said tags and now I know I know I must make. I looked in the window, think I'm sure didn't get into the trunk 'cause. I didn't have the keys, but now I wonder whether he had a margin look hard enough. Those car keys, 'cause. I keep wanting what was in the trunk now that car you know, I don't know. I was that clever detective at that point in time, but I did go through his room looking at his door if the other souvenirs I'd heard about- and I did not find that and when most of the room and that I didn't come across anything I thought. Well, you know probably isn't anything here, but then I then I noticed his trash and have these big hefty trash bag sitting there with some pizza boxes on top- and I thought you know well, maybe I better look in the trash and that's where I found what I considered possible evidence links at the crime scene, which was all of the clothing. He had warned that night he had thrown away, which

I thought was kind of unusual. I mean I don't know. I don't know if you've ever done this, but you should come home even from a hike in the woods where perhaps I did get drenched in a rainstorm. I end up in a muddy river. I need to come home with all my quilting away, that's kind of expensive. We know to throw away your tennis shoes, your brand new tennis shoes and your brand new jeans and everything else. He did have a shirt that was shredded in the back and I believe that was from the Briar Bush is and Allah made sense to be thrown away because it was too damaged to wear but the other items weren't damaged and really just wet, they were wet. They almost like he either came back 'cause, it was muddy, is almost like. It came back, use the whole outside, whose himself down and then walked in here up to them, which may perhaps because I didn't want to enter the door looking muddy should be. I don't know why

you have to you have to understand some of these guys when I say think really clearly either. The other possibility is. Is that I don't. I don't know if you're a good reason to be, but then they want money, but they were wet, and I asked him about that later on and was not at the time but later interview. I did with him years later. I asked him why he is closer wet what he threw. The weighty, never answered the wet part too well, but he did tell me that when his clothes the closed out when the genes got wet, he didn't like the way they think ride. So the lawyer the way- and I remember thinking Dumbson over her because don't you ever washed and limiting often at night you get away with it yeah. Do you weren't going away with asylum? I make it so it's his answer didn't make sense, but that was really to me.

Not normal to sorry closing away, there was also a there was also a knife in the trash. There was also some mud, wrapped in plastic like saran, wrap and I've never did quite figure out what the, but that was there was have Ethel those with a kind of things. Therefore, why took into the M the police department, along with a story that he had written, which was called my silent enemy and is particularly interesting story, talked about how he? How does this here he rubbed the story, the protagonist of story with filth, environment in the park you with the baby? Oh, he was the face. I just use my name in death war my face, and he realized in the story for sadness that I was my own silent enemy that he indeed was actually the chiller. I I think that's kind of an inch.

I think story. You know that some writing now course. It could just be an interesting fiction writer, but he won't than handed out that that story to me about a week before the homicide, I'd like to get into the police, with all the information about his behaviors with the young, the clothing from the the trash, and here they just the they ve made fun of me. When I sat there and we don't see what your problem is with the sky. Like a really really blew me, why had stopped to this day was it something about they thought you were white woman's suspicious of a black man. Meanwhile, you're married to a w indian men, hey, I don't got a problem with that. You know. Listen, that's not an issue,

right? I mean the whole thing made out. I think they keep looking for things to put me down. One was that I was a bored housewife and I had to say you know know that is not. Then they had they kind of had that. We wanted this overly suspicious people and like not really I'm the one who rented the room doing my husband with overly suspicious it, not Maine, you know and then the racial issue they did bring that up and then I had to tell them. You know my husband is also black. I don't think that is a big deal and I tried to explain that I tried to reason with my son look. My husband also has been on that path. You know he is he's a soccer player. He has jogu down that path. I said I don't suspect my husband, I mean. Is he does but these kind of behaviors and he was not on the path at night, but this man was, at night he admitted to being on the path that night he just didn't, dump by his girlfriend, because women for speeches and horse my rights, a story about killing people in the park.

Some of the same language, yet only through causing away what part of this. Don't you get what what part of this, what makes you think you should at least interview, and this is for two days after the crime. This is it. This was before there was a young man who ended up killing us up another couple days later, and they decided to claim he committed the crime and they shut it down administratively for years because of that, but this was even before that and they showed no interest and I've never been able to figure that part out. It was true that the department of never worked in homicide case in their life, so this was new to them. But even if you didn't have experience- and even if you didn't understand, psycho pass- and even if you didn't understand serial killers, you dress kinda would think they would want to interview a guy who admitted to being the crime scene yeah. I just did just that. Just still boggles my mind: how how pitiful can you get, and, of course this is

no, not necessarily typical of all police department. Was this particular police department in this particular detective who had that issue I feel they work. It was a very inexperience police department, sparse homicide went because they were, they were part. Police depart as opposed to being like our county police department right what kind of mind boggling. Well the thing is you, at two days and they didn't? They didn't take a look at your end of your information and then based on this kid commits suicide and not much, I mean no real evidence of any connection to it. They almost close the case and put on him as we'll explain a little bit later right. Part of that part of this is your discovery of information, even though you think you're getting first and hand information from authorities you're getting some ma. Misinformation, which again must must have been quite frustrating when you find out. You been deceived now right now with this sum.

Now you go to the police, he doesn't take. You seriously doesn't really take any notes, any dismisses you. So what do you do next? Well, I kind of just kind of just one away thinking. For a while there that I wish I was really stunned, I think it was almost in shock because they didn't do anything, and then I kept expecting that this would all turn around that I must be misinterpreting. Is it his attitude and that a day or two later I'd hear that this man? Why can't? I kicked what Williams out of the house? The next day I had my hug he was laid on this ramp is just had my husband tell him to leave, and he just did he just picked up his. He picked up his stuff into this far with the dead tags. They just drove away, and Well, that's the last time. I saw him for many years, so he was out of the house, but I kind of expect. I just pick up the newspaper and I read: police have arrested Walt Williams, or at least I hear through the grapevine that they'd interviewed the guy, and I didn't hear anything I didn't

you think I start I started calling them going. Did you interview them and they just told me? No, we did not interview him. He is not a person of interest at this time and I just I could not believe it, and then I heard the rumor that this other young man had killed himself a few days after the crime about, I think about five days after the crime and shot himself in committed suicide with a shotgun and that he was the guy at the, the girl. That was the rumour that one around town and I thought to myself well, maybe Maybe they just have evidence like in this type of crime, and now what Williams was just what those freaky dunes came along the path either. You know twenty minutes before twenty minutes after the crime went down and he's just is a weird dude. It was closer. I tried to make all kinds of reasons why that would make sense, and it's possibly could have just finished psychopathic fellow who was there around?

time in them. The outside figured weren't. They no something! I don't because sometimes it's true, you know. If you look at a lot of investigations, you can assume something is true on the outside, but be on the inside investigation. You know otherwise, because you know what the evidence is actually shows. You know what has been done, and so I thought well may, they have evidence linking this. Other young man to the crime went ashore. That's the way it is, and so I kind of let it go for a while, but it just it did keep bugging me because it just seemed that so much evidence pointed to Walt Williams.

Ann took along time from me to then decide to go and start investigating whether this other young man really could have committed the crime or not, and I found out that there was no evidence linking him to the cross. Absolutely you got to speak to the parents and that's where you got some information. Did you yeah? I want, I want to speak to the parents and they were completely devastated because not only at the son committed suicide, but then the police showed up to tell them that their son was a murderer. Can you imagine that image? Just it was just the coolest thing in the world? I could not believe it and do they gave me the autopsy for their son and some of things. I had heard the one of some of the suspicion we have been linked to this crime, for example, it he had scratch March from the briar pushes in the channel tunnel area dumb from raping her, and there was nothing in the world Perhaps your point yet no scratches on his body whatsoever and so and it than I thought

the parents about issues were. He was an eighteen year old boy who is just depressed over his it also other girlfriend he broke up and so depressed die. But this you know this isn't young white man with eighteen years old, stop number of people. He just didn't seem to have that kind of personality, and this would have likely been his first crime and the type of crime that was committed against this girl was much more advanced number, they say, there's a serial killer starts out with a similar crime, and then he advances you know. Sometimes in the spaces add list to me was just too much for this young man. That seemed to me this. This person who committed that crime is committed a crime before and at that time what Williams was much older the chances of him committing that crime. You cited twenty six years old was much more likely to do just barely turned eighteen, and eventually I talked to the family of the victim and bait,

who made that there was her of the same color. At the same, in this young man. Although they didn't say there was any dna or a new mitochondrial dna from the hair root. Matching this young man, and then they told me there so some dna, but yeah they told me not to stare, was one issue, but then there's supposedly from DNA, and all of that turned out to be alive that the police had told him that, but it did not exist, and so there was absolutely nothing connecting this young man to that particular crime. But at the same time, when did when did you find out that you were told by police that the DNA looted? What William, when we are told that, when I came back came later because that was six years later, six years after the back? I knew The new detective came into the departments are kept, pressuring them and the new detective reopened the case and took a look at the Fort William. As any call me,

when he said well, the complete boy. I can't believe they let this guy walk. He was astounded that they had brought him in work right away, so he was the woman actually brought what we understand. He called them up. Everything went out to take him up in Virginia. They brought him into the the police station. He was polygraph, he failed. They took him. And that is a blood they interviewed him interrogated him and said he told bunch of bogus double told the phone, false alibi, all kinds of information that just data slowed their eyes that they said we believe it's him. They asked me at that time, so I would testify in court, and I said yes, so I pretty much knew they were pretty solid about this guy and they were simply waiting for the do. You need to come back so so that was when I had a lot of hope that all the efforts I put in finally we're going to get this guy off the street, because they

they will look the president they figure they had the dna because they were no checking against his dna and so five months went by it. That's how long it took the people think DNA comes back in a week while doesn't take smart, sometimes for five months I was on pins and needles wondering what's going to be happening, waiting for the phone call and finally, I calmly said what's going on and they said they said: Walt Williams have excluded by the DNA and I was so stunned. I said you gotta be kidding me device at that point I was pretty darn sure I was right. I said you're kidding me. I said, and I said wait a minute. I said now tell me the truth is he is he was if it was not conclusive inconclusive. In other words, it wasn't enough DNA to match right. I can handle that. Believe me. If you tell me that I will understand why you don't go to court, but please don't

The man tell me who is excluded in the DNA actually did not exclude him, and they just told me Miss Brown get along you wanna come up on the realism of the hour. In which of course indicated that the information they gave it was true, and I I something in me told me that they will, and it took me a year. I call quite a few times in a one day. I just looked under this guide Christopher whatever reasons open up the report and read it to me, which I'm still surprised. He did that and he read me that was no dna and then I had it verified by the state's attorney's office, and so there never was any dna to match to what we have. So they could not have excluded him so

and is that at that time you decide and what are the circumstances in which you do eventually interview people around and surrounding what Williams and then eventually even compe. Whenever you want Williams or how to that all come about well, one of the things that happen along the way with that I wanted. I didn't know what was really bothered by the first, while the concept that I was they were climbing nuts. In spite you know, for the first six years, they were saying that I was completely completely wrong and then Told that didn't the dna did not match him, which was not true, so I guess kept thinking. You know I gotta find out more information. I need to know more, and so I decided

I was going interview people by I could find you do this father it we this gesture, I interviewed on his new wife, Lothar uh. I wasn't able to get to the new wife. I could talk to her later on and I talked to the people visit RX employers and I was pretty well convinced to all of that that he will. He did fit this label cycle path, because even is even this family didn't have a problem, giving me a long interview. I sat down with him for quite a long time and chatted with them, and they all said we don't know what's wrong with him were, were scared of him, and this is across. This was a across the board from employers ex girlfriends family. They all had the same stories. There is no question in my mind that the man does fulfil very nicely the label a psychopath.

There is no question my mind that he's got a lot of disturbed behavior, but it doesn't mean he killed anybody and that was. The other thing I was doing was looking into other crimes that he might have been able to might have committed, because I was hoping could link him to something else. In other words, we can't get a serial killer on one prime. Perhaps you can find another crime that they committed. It doesn't really matter which one you get them for if we could just get them off the streets, so I thought I'd see if I could find something else that might lead to him and so admirable work well, how I've looked at all

all the crimes Larry. I try to determine crimes that would be most likely. Is it if he were if he committed the crime of an Kelly, be committed hamburger? Yes, he had done that murder. I look for other ones. I did not consider too far outside of heavy busy behaviour patterns, the style of the crime and on the night than I sue to see whether there was any possibility that he was heading links to those crimes. An and it was really very interesting because I actually, I actually purposely picked out a number of times that I thought he couldn't have any that that didn't look like him at all and I couldn't come over asked about the site. We said until I was not about creating stop. It wasn't there, but I did find the number of crimes that hit you did have a good possibility of being linked to

and I pursued with those police department San I found it was very difficult to get them to consider somebody that they hadn't considered. I share your and I've got an idea. This is it. This is a problem for policy for people who believe somebody is committing crimes, and I I sort of understandable both sides of this equation. I mean I've, been the person knocking on the police to a boy. Did you check? Do you you? Could you consider this guy I've been on the other side of people come knocking on my door? Fine, I know a guy's a serial killer. I think he's killed these ten people and I don't really want to hear or something yeah. You get a lot of crackpots. You get a lot of people with very vivid imagination, but they really don't have any evidence. They just have a weird guy that they think is committing all these crimes. So I understand upon the police point of view as well.

Because I I did believe it hasn't a connection to some other crimes in area too, in particular, which work he had excessive amounts of links to, ah enough to make him a bit suspect in both France and am very, very difficult it anyway to look into it so until the lab little so they weren't they. I felt like it so that they did not look at these other crimes that do you thought fit his signature is I'm all right well from havin some haven't. I had one day when he did look into one well and then he was looking into this The fact that had not gauge and on those in our area, black Garrett was looking into one with May an agreed that there are some pretty darn, interesting connections to Walt Williams. Particular crime with the local police then started looking into it, and then I think somebody went after a rock or something in that

I just got killed everything and after that it is never could get him back, focused on it again and from outside of police department. I know people who have much power, you know too too anything I mean I contacted the family and the family contact with Police Department said. Please pay attention to where she's saying, but if you don't get the right detective, who really wants to pursue it? may not happen, and there is no one of the things that's always frustrated. Maine is there is no accountability process for police department's I think it would benefit the police department, as well as the families to have that accountability process. Because then you know it would just it would just be There is part of the law that, after a certain period of time, the family would have rights to see the police files or to designate somebody to look at the police files are to designate us a special committee. I believe they have this in England that you can actually call for a committee to review yes, because we have nothing

either. There are some cases where, twenty years later, the family well has no idea. What's going on with that case, and I have a case right now- it just drives me bonkers, because I had I had to sign a confidentiality agreement with this particular police department, and I don't I don't. I don't find that very often, but this police department insisted on it and I put in a weeks work with this police department and I flew, and that was pro bono paid out of pocket to do. The work came up with some very interesting avenues, investigation. I came up with a different suspect and uh and when I left town because it was not their suspect back and they've in this case is the milk of quite a while. They just basically told the family that I was wrong and they've told the family that they had investigated this particular person and that already done certain certain interviews and- and I know it's not true- 'cause I've seen the files and uh the family keeps

long may, like saying it oh pad you'd alarm I bit by bit his mind. Is it going to check out so this person? Now? I'm thinking? That's not that's not what I said. I keep thinking that the findings of the police are going to be looking up doing something with my profile, and I know it's not happy and I cannot tell the family is, does Baptist in years and years in years. Since it's this homicide went down, I can't tell the family anything and I feel it's really so wrong, because in my opinion, why can't they see the profile it? if it does not make us any good, but then I can pursue operational, the fairly hooked up with less whether another, let another detective up their choice. Somebody that they trust, who take a look at Let me take a look at it it up, so that we know whether all avenues have been pursued, but I heard when I think I guess what they think

is that some of the profiles think there. You know there are sort of elite team, that sort of leaves everybody else in the dust or everybody else is being trained. But now, let's, let's get to that pro, only know because, as a result of Walt Williams, as result of your experience with police, with your frustration, if you gathering evidence and then having been vindicated where you have your information verified, but you right. You weren't crazy! You were right now. What do you do as a result and tell our audience exactly despite what they might have seen on criminal minds, what this profiling mean? Well, I what I decided to do after I saw this go down with that. I really felt there was a lack of understanding of psychopath a lack of understanding of how fearful operate and the lack of funding

of how to reconstruct a crime and an recognize certain evidence awe and that I started studying missing, researching. You know how this could be improved and how profiling should be applied, and what I did I met with a lot of criminal. Mind stop it. I know about people. Looked from all my life, I've watched by the few segments of an ethic it up, I actually at the way to tat kind of hooked on the characters in there, but I must tell my last when I'm watching the serious, because it's it's off and the fear that the method of cream profiling that is often shown on television and has it she then promoted as many years. Yet the ice is called inductor profiling and what that simply means is that in

already to understand more about serial killers and cycle path and predators. Alot of research was done, interviews were done at prisons and information was gathered about their behaviors, which is all good and fine. I have no objections whatsoever. I have read those books and I'm very appreciate all the studies and research has been done, but then it came up with methodology to help identify a serial killers, an link crimes together that was really based more on, I would say, statistics and percentages. You know as far as some basic information goes like, for example, that looks serial killers are male. Well, that's true, I mean most serial killers are male, especially when to rape and murder.

But as I usually people who write blackmail on the other, we do have a couple incidents out there were a woman has committed a rake. You should put an object, obviously, but still rape and that's fairly. Where we do have women were serial killers, they killed her own children. Often they kill patients and hospitals one after the other. Some of them are black widows and kill their husband one after the other and some help the boyfriends, and then we have the weird ones like even worn out who had to shut down the man that she was a picking up. His press do so more women are sealed. Chose to vote. Yes is truly in fine words: make did what The Bush is usually gotta mail serial killer, so they used a lot, typically statistics to make determination, and then, on top of that, what was really concerning when I was studying and trying to figure out, you know you look at a crime scene and

analyze look at all the evidence out there and you come up with conclusions. Well, when I was finding was that I was reading some of these profiles put together by inductor profile, I didn't understand where they got their conclusion from. They just seem to come up with something that I could not figure out how they got it and it was kind of like this. I I just don't stupid. Actually I do. I would look at this, but I don't know how they did it and of course you know that's why a lot of people think can't your profile and she got the FBI, because if you don't want the F B, I you won't get this incredible, hidden wisdom. Let's talk behind those secretly and then, if you did, that you would come out and you would know by looking at times and you will be able to come up with these things like magic and I'm sending really. I can't understand it. Well, it turns out that there wasn't

certain motor standards because it was a scientific. It wasn't based on the evidence. It was based on guess, work. It was based on percentages. Statistics are the thoughts of the theories of the day and a low times. A lot of times. Portion of that profile was completely wrong because it was just made up and that would send the po he's on and the wrong trail, and I remember the M Ro serial killer. He was telling about women. Louisiana, ok, Derek! What's his name, carrots, one his name, but it they. I murmured the f B. I came out of the profile on that nickel. Might I owe you a black? Why do they say he was white and all? guess what they decided, that there are a number of white women killed and the prevailing theory was white. Men killed white women yeah, whatever

And so they said it was a white sign. I'm like wait a minute. You had no business saying that, because there was, if you're, going to pay something on race, it got to come up with a good reason. Yeah. Why you're coming up with the persons? Why are the person person Hispanic an example? Might be it if a person commits a certain type of crime? I remember they called me once about a crime that happened down in Florida and they just one of the networks. They said all these people were, they were, they were abducted and they were driven. There were kept in somebody's house and then they were driven around him ATM machine to atm machine. I said oh gosh, those guys the guys, probably mexican, who kidnapped them and they want. Why do you say the Mexican, I think, is that common crime in Mexico? No, no! I can't for sure the next step, but it is a common climate Mexico. So I would tell the police This'Ll be was, but will be scientific about how I'd state this I'd state.

It is a very simple reclined crimes that are committed to Mexico, that we have not seen much in the. U S. I might take a look at mixed up, so this is a mexican suspect sure if you have any leads in that directory. Well, the network person went away and they came back and said catch up. That's right there mexican, but I would explain it where I came up with that portion of what the chance of war that that conclusion was correct, but simply to say for no reason whatsoever that the persons ranks again based on absolutely nothing and makes no sense to me. So there was reason that left a killer crime. They could have known wasn't that were serial killer with white or black, because it is not true that white men kick like victims and black men thick black victim The only reason that was true in the past was because you sure closer lazy and they like to be with them, and they put people within a mile of where they live and an enough in the segregative past black eyes with near black women.

I could never live near a white woman, but you know now that times have changed kind of hard to pin the race. You know that that easily so there you know to make up stuff, that's not based on some scientific evidence or some strong behavioral evidence. No, that would tell you all this guys, probably ' we are almost frank. You're very good chances this because, for example, there's a guy steal the car right now or else Printers County Maryland. Guy still the car a changes, radio station 'cause. It was a professor on the car and professor was professor of a russian something or other at the university. He likes to listen to Czajkowski, you know, but the guys told changes it to rap music. What race is he depends on the time for him, be it could be

sky, but it could be a white guy two hands on your pizza county, Maryland White Tire, every black guys in the graph here white guys, listen to rap here, so you know you would be able to check. So you have to be when you're gonna make it determination. You have to think very carefully why you go make that determination and then what you're going to base that determination on sorry there's something specific enough we're just to unusual. It offer this to be an ill. If you can see the present lack of prisoners hey with a person turtle ahead, I put in a city of their own in the city was awake. A guy called yellow man was a pretty good chances. I wasted, and then you might get the yellow man is not known to many people that are not watched anyone, but if he put them Bob Marley, goodness gracious. You know, everybody knows Bob Marley,

Wait you black like so he couldn't get a guy was watched. Indian, please! You have to be very specific either with the physical evidence. But the cable evidence and that's what I realized was missing- that a lot of the profiling after was guesswork. I wish I could break this stuff made up stuff, so deductive profiling, which is what I do says when you do so when you examine the crime. You have to examine every detail but fiscal details, a behavioral detail, the bluffs better than the ballistics de movements in the room, the culture, the architecture, everything you can and rebuild the crime so that you know exactly what happened and then you can be termed the motive and who might have done it if we really want to get very, very detailed after that, the programme can like Sherlock Holmes, no

and I know, you're a big fan of Sherlock Holmes SOAP. I read that in there somewhere. Let's talk about we've done about. We've only got a few minutes, but I'm going to go a little bit long. If you're going to stay with us just for a few more extra minutes 'cause, I want to go through a particular case that I think really demonstrates what you do and how you can, how you've made a difference, an especially pointing explaining what you just explained in a real good demonstration here with this army private Sarah Andrews in your chapter murder, behind the bar. Now it's a fascinating case in a to what it demonstrates now, most the details of the murder in the discovery and what did the police investigation lead them to conclude? And why and how and tell us how you became involved in this case? It's a fascinating story, yeah This was one of the earlier crimes and I actually profile. I had a strange fella come to me,

working for the family do with it, he was a bounty hunter and their hands looking for the family, and I ran into a weather and the balance. Forcement seminars just taking actually just the final kind of weird people to build for it thanks a lot of psychopath and IRAN is this guy and he won't he found out. I was a profile and I was pretty. Didn't you, but I think you wanted me to kind of Bacchus this theory, because he would welcome a family for a lot of money related investigator the stuff and charging by the hour, and so he told me that You gave me the information about this. Particular crime in the family did have on the crimes you photos, which is kind of unusual. Don't open case, but with a very old open case and dumb this young, she was in the military and she went out of one evening took with couple friends to topple wars in the area of the MID west. As youth

he went missing and in the morning she was found behind one of the bars she went to that night. She was found behind the bar dumped in the parking lot as she would totally make, except for she had one shoe on an her. Leggings were hanging off of that one shoe and she was calm and kind of look. She she was laid laid out there in the parking lot. Almost look like she possibly was posed, but I didn't later on. Determine that was not true is just the way she landed was very, very artistic. Just you know just wish you flop capital vera kind of unattractive pose, and she also had her drivers license left with her, which is kind. Unique, and this case has been cold for years and years and years and what happened with his It was. The original detectives on the case went down or a road of

I'm avenue of investigation, which was not wrong to look at, but they really believe they never stopped analyzed a crime and which is very common, and they should because I've had some people around who involved and drugs after she was involved in drugs, particularly at a much more modest vote, to learn that somehow they developed this theory that cheap disappear. Far from drug people and they took her to some place and maybe a house or the larger something Andy torture her, because she did have some injuries to her body. She had them. She was now. There was no dna, for she was not issues not eventually raped, but she had she was. There was a state believed with object, assertion put four anal rape

and she had bite mark on her hand and breast and worker nipples was cut off and she was when battered and bruised so they had this theory. She was taken back to this license, they take tortured her and then they brought her back and dumped her in the parking lot and through her license on top of her some kind of, I guess, I'm kind of warning, but there was absolutely no evidence. That any of this was true and what really never happened was they never took? A look at the table happened to this girl Rebuilding the crime, rebuilding the actual, what we know how the crime heard, and if you actually built how the crime occurred, then you would realize that she was never taken any place to any any location, where she was tortured you by building the crime. I was able to prove that she was actually assaulted,

front seat of a van and then dragged into the back within. She was brutalized and murder to strangle the actual that coat hairs in the back of his head. And then she was left to lay in the back of the man for a number of hours, and then she was finally the door that ban with open Hence they swung her body out, but he did. He found the body and dumped her in the lot where she was left and you could try, well with this through the injuries on her body. Because of things, the way things where the injuries were, what order they occurred in, you could tell what happened and where in which meant that it was in a very constructive space and dumb, and what is that? Look like looked like a sexual homicide to me then looks like a serial killer, because she got in the passenger seat of a van and a guy started biting her and then

learn to the back and anally assaulted her and then strangled her. It doesn't look like a drug deal gone bad to Maine or or some kind of drug retaliation. It looks like a serial killer crime. Alright, just one person involved and in the sad thing is: if they down done the crime reconstruction way back, when I think you might have gone down the right trail and maybe they would have found it, but they were too busy looking for grandiose because they do not never did the climate destruction. That's all that's at some point about your doktor profiling is it's it's really to make sure you don't overlook any little pieces of evidence and go with double got. People sometimes say with, though Pat Brown she used her gut feeling like no. No, no, no, no, that gut feelings are not a part of it. I'm not saying we don't have them by the time. You're finished uh, reducing what happened in the crime you should take. The film can throw him out the window. I mean sure that that you know you shouldn't have any of your conclusions based on gut feelings. It should

above all, the pieces of the puzzle have to fit perfectly, can have some leaps of logic right right now now I will admit occasionally it will be like you're from transit apiece, it's something you cannot explain sure, and you know you don't want to throw out your whole time. If you got twenty piece of evidence of the port, something you want to save the cars twenty one to twenty one. First taste, I couldn't pipe figure it out steadily in the other. Twenty four just are no good. No, it is something that completely obliterates gathered. Twenty, that's that's one thing, but sometimes what will happen? Is people like to believe that crime scenes are whatever happens in the crime scene then makes it stays exactly like freezes, but in reality what happens is sometimes the killer himself can mess something up and then make it look just make any sense. He could also do something to add some things to the scene that doesn't make any sense. The family can find the body and do something.

Maybe because they're embarrassed they don't like the way the body was lying. It's no don't want anybody to find their daughter. Looking like that, so they move her body. Think some people remove weapons from the scene, suicide. They will remove the weapon. Sometimes people will steal stuff from a scene. They'll just come and get a sense of the relative will find the person like all dang, look as well. It's over here Uncle Uncle Bobs did, but man he's got money in his wallet and by the way I want it always did want that nice, cold, cufflink set of his and so little rob him after he's dead. Sure, then the only Please come in to do the investigation, I think all the robbery, but a really wasn't a robbery. In a murder for some other reason among them at the time of the stall, the crap in a room where all the boys. So there is a lesson tat things continue during the crime scene and really messed up you're trying to understand what happened. So it's never never perfect as well

to be so nice is sometimes it's cool, weather or son. His firefighters come in and the whole hose the place down the weapon slide from one room to another. All kinds of stuff can go just match the whole thing up, so you have to always be aware of that when you're doing a crime reconstruction that you might not be so it's quite the way it was now explain briefly, we did few minutes about explain briefly, you done all this work. You're doing these profile. You just alluded to that you're doing a lot of his work for free. So how do you learn your money or how? Why would you do this for free in and what's the upshot for you other than you can write a fascinating book about it by hack? Tell us why had established and why you established it and how does it work well, yeah? I got it

never thought these things through terribly well, I mean when I, when I went into this. I think if I know the old thing, if I knew what I know now, I would never have done it either. Think I probably would think. Oh, my god, I can't go down. That was that's just ridiculous. I didn't know what I know now, so I kept fighting along. You know and kept moving in a direction, and the reason I do pro bono work in the beginning was because there's a good way to get my foot in the they are not asking for money. More people, like would have become an because it off the pay, and I wanted the experience. I wanted to start working with these cases, later on. I realized that police didn't have any money anyway,. So they were never governor profile and they had to pay for the profile now, because she change, because I'd like to see larger departments have an on staff, profiler or the state have a profile available to everybody. I'd like to see

Detectors be their own profile is that they have the time to do it or detected the audit department that specialise in profile as they can be brought in. Specifically unusual cases like you know that aren't so clear cuts. So I'd like to see all that change, but that's going to probably another two decades before Somebody else can impact that. So I did pro bono because it gave me experience and it also gave the police experience working with a profiler and also you know just trying to promote profiling. So I still at this point still do pro bono work, but only tell you yeah, it is. It is a huge garden and it certainly doesn't pay your bills and the time, I never even thought about writing a book on my cases. I mean that wasn't really something that crossed my mind at that time in the beginning that I'm going to do this case is my to book as a matter of fact because of the problem with prosecution and what I've discovered is that you know the, but we're working this case

have been able to solve the case. Is that, because of the time, the way they haven't been prosecuted and at the very upsetting to me, and that's why I wanna get profile it into the police violence early on within the first twenty for the forty eight hours, or at least the first week or two at least the first month, so that you know the profiler can help with the case and get it going in the right direction. Make sure the evidence doesn't get lost, or that did not on the wrong trail for five years, so you can't possibly tell a family. Five years later, we were wrong for five years profile came in and solve. The case is just embarrassing, so nobody's been admit to it. So I want the profilers in early, so nobody has to deal with this kind of thing. You know it becomes just they just become part of the team early on as a tool, and but you know the prosecution problems, then just well. We in this case it you know it isn't happening, even if, even if the case is solved or we believe itself, you can't prosecute something if it's too late. So this is

oh. This is also an issue I mean because of this is this is what was happening with these cases? They weren't getting prosecuted. It's you know some people have may because of this in the book. If they will look at that, you know, you know, why aren't you showing more prosecuted cases and I'm like? Well, I don't control that and it also we just one will so let people know the truth, because one of things I've always tried to be very strong about is just telling the truth, because I believe if we don't know the truth, but can't fix things, and I think too much always hidden under the table because of politics and pride and ego, everybody always wants to be perfect and everybody wants to be T Rowe and nobody wants to take criticism. So we just hide everything, so I decided not just tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may, because, hopefully, this book will break some ground and it is my hope that the book actual pick up speed over the years. You know they don't believe

educational tool over the years before more people will start saying. You know you gotta pay attention to this book. This book book is telling the truth. It's shown, first of all, it's the first book on market that ever showed how profiling is done. We there's no other book out there that goes through the cases and breaks it down and shows how a person can profile in most yeah, most of the most. If you've ever ready near the FBI, books or lost about their, they don't tell you, how would they do it and that's that's? They want to keep it mysterious, so they can retain this feeling of being the only one who can do this and the most brilliant brilliant person in the world, the great great profiler. As a matter of fact, the murder room is another book that just came out about the Vidoc Society and Richard Walter actually said in the book. There's only like three real profiles or fibro profiles. In United States and the rest of them are frogs, which I think I'm one of the fraud

and he's referring here, I'm like I'm like. No, really really Richard I mean. Do you really want to tell people this? Only five people who can legitimately do this work in the entire United States is everything science. If it's not much of a science, if you can't train people there, you go, you just said it. That's that's that Dan is the exact point you will have just hit the nail on the head: it's not much of a science. If you can't train anybody else matter fact. I've never said that. I think I tribute that one. Do you absolutely correct? So it's bogus if you can't train people so I've, what I've done with this book is show you. It is a science you can beat now it helps if your logical, because if you're not a logical person, it is not going to be very good at doing this. So you're just going to suck at and I'm sorry that this is not your profession, but if you're a logical person, then you can learn. Then you can learn the skills and you can become a good profiler and it is my hope that one day

We will. There will be so many profiles around. My name will kind of vanished amidst all the other profilers, because they'll just be so many of them just like hammocks it out. If you I said who who who is the doctor in the United States, what are you going to say? There's so many doctors in the states should actually decide who's a profile in United States. You can actually give the names Robert Ressler John Job was Pat Brown, bread curvy. You know I'm saying there's not very many of us. It's that ridiculous, Clint Van Zandt. Yeah, there's only only a few guys and it's not like on the tips of everybody's tongue. You really don't really should go beyond the railways in Europe. Yeah, you really demystifying. It you've done a bunch of interviews with you know: mainstream media. Where in the end a book really goes through the details to where you know yourself: education, you, U article two, kids in your home

hold yourself to a great. You know there are no specific serial killer profile courses like you say, can't just fold the FBI and say hey. I got the affinity for this once you once you train me and, like you say, yeah, I had to train myself because it didn't exist, but there I did create the first profile certificates program in the country, but Excelsior College. However, sad to say, they've been watering that one down, and so finally, I've had to part ways with them, and I can't I can't. Actually. I can tell you that I can tell people that's one place. You may learn who had nothing, but since I no longer have control over the programme- and I dont know they ve done to it. I feel kind of this time people to go there now of butter. I'm hoping I won I'll be working on the background. Criminal profiling school, which I'm going to hopefully get up someday in the future, is chicken take a lot of work because after it now, I spent two years developing one for Excelsior and I had to start over again but I'm bring this time. I have control over it, so I can put together what people

really really need to know to learn how to profile, and hopefully one day this will spawn more pro, because again I don't. I don't ever want to have a monopoly on something. I'm perfectly happy if there turns into two thousand and thirty programs across the United States, so that people can learn this and I'm going detective work or people can become profiles and work with department so that it becomes part of the methodology because we need to solve these crimes. You need to get these killers up the street and I you know, having a few of profiling gods running around, really isn't doing the job, so I'm hoping that one day I'll wake up and I'll actually be able to say wow. There's a profiler in every police department close that How, then, an army that were I'm had that that, like all the other two very

lofty, go in a very, very worthy goal as well, and I agree with you and I hope you're I know your fight will love will take root, I mean it is they who already live long enough? I think that the biggest problem- and the recession of course, is putting a damp on a whole bunch of stuff, a shirt Helen, it's rolling in common, is killing police departments being able to provide not bring in training and was killing people's ability to go to school so recession that, hopefully we will come out of it. Although it's looking pretty bleak this month, but I've had I've slowed down a lot this year because of the disastrous economy, but since my hope that will pull through this and fifty five now my mother is ninety, so I got thirty five. The years I figure quite a while she doesn't have a twenty five year about my truck, I wanna much darker children, but I hope that I can really get these things at some point.

Get bold accomplished and I'll feel good about that. But you know what I set out to do has has made a difference. Maybe can't get somebody like well Williams off the street if he's guilty, but maybe there will be another person, you know who don't, because they get per thousand farmers will find or closure rates increase and that will save a lot of a lot of victims from having to go through it and Kelly went through. You know back in nineteen ninety, and we wish that on anybody, yeah yeah and it's, I think, a vast improvement in regular citizens recognizing certain things will then prompt them to bring evidence to the police and police, have better training and, as you advocate strongly better crime, linkage better statistics of the d

cells of crime that are not so general so as to assist. So if you again in a refining of the system and and certainly always be finding the system you can get to recognize, and these people go serial killers and psychopathic killers really are very unique from a lot of the homicides that especially small community, see, and hence their police experience. So they need to see just when the serial killer moves into the little town. No, this is not just all domestic world. We have an increase in them, so I mean we don't want to be. You know possibly behind so yes, I hope that

we can improve that all way around. I think the most important thing about that is people to stop ignoring reality and stop. You know just being just being very open and truthful and and- and you know that detect this out there- you know- I I totally support them. They were very, very hard way over their way over work. They have way too many cases in certain jurisdictions even deal with anything they're very discouraged, a lot of times by a prosecutorial system and they were burned out and don't feel like doing crack, because it's like you know how hard we have to work not to get anywhere. You know we said all the evidence and you won't even take it to court, so I mean there frustrated too. There's a lot of issues that go on in the politics is very, very bad, so I mean it's effective, you know and some of them, but they don't get training. Some of them just have a job. Maybe they shouldn't be in the great police. There's great cops on the street. Maybe really shouldn't have been made into detectors, but they don't have the logic, even though they might be good on certain crimes just 'cause. They have to gather information, so they might be to detect us for crimes where

that is now and they might be fabulous detectives, but where comes down require construction that may lack that, and so why not give them support instead of saying that they can? Do eighty percent of their job, but they laughed at ten percent. They need for climate destruction. Why not have somebody on their team just to help them out? I mean it everybody can just do a better job together. I think that's what I'd like to get all this egotism and refusal to look at the reality. Let's, let's, let's, let's look at it, let's look at it and fix it and not not blame anybody. Let's just try to figure out what needs to be done and keep working on it. Well, I think why you had coop. Creation with police departments, despite not being with the F b I get in the car from love in want of all of this is the FBI and I'm a famous profiles that you're sick

It is logical and makes a lot of sentence relating to these guys. Are there not coming in the F B, I have had a lot of problems, sending profiles into look at certain crimes. In the end, the local police have sent these people home said Farewell battered unequal above ground than at the fact that the problem that the local police bomb attack on the FBI and the jurisdiction, because anywhere working if we have to extend to come in and kind of take over unless you have a really good relationship with a certain FBI agent and there's some after I have a lot of respect for a bunch of Brad Garrett before I've always had respect for Brad CARE. I think it's great. That I think is a very good agent. I mean there's certain ones that really have established themselves well, police department and certainly under certain circumstances, when they need a team that they really have like. They need a major search effort. They have huge problem with crossing state line. Certain certain issues that have an FBI team is welcome. They have no problem with that. I think the F b I came to the great job, but when he had you have to put our coming in

on the police, don't believe in FBI and ex profiling. I think they do believe Warren the deductive profiling I do, but they're still skeptical and they still don't like me coming in most of the time I mean I have some call me up, but the rest number like I don't know about you, because I'm coming in and essential, I'm doing a thing. You know here's what happens. Sometimes they still won't have me come in because they're hoping I will agree with their theory and find him some new piece of evidence and then they can solve the case and they look good. Tat. It was their theory but thou there talking more about it. But what happened? Can I come in and I go oh you're wrong. You got the wrong suspect now. They feel rather embarrassed She came in and told us we were wrong and they will admit to Maine, while I'm sitting there yeah you're right. You know we never saw that you'll you're correct about that. Well, while we never, we just never saw that they realize it didn't have scope to the climate construction. They missed it. But when I walk out of here.

I'm not tell anybody, but I figured it out because they they feel embarrassed saw their place. She tells us up. You don't tell a family that were wrong for five years. So there's a lot of politics, and- and I don't- I don't- really blame the detectors for that they're in a really crappy situation. So that's why I think the whole system needs a little bit more openness and support yeah. Absolutely Well, you ve done a fine job in setting the standard for everybody and that this book is a distant, fantastic red and and insist a great cause. It you're you're, starting here as well in terms of people, be being really being able to relate to your story in and seeing exactly how you became involved with profiling and where you it his lead. You in your life with this

Oh, it's amazing. I don't want to tell people they've been listening to the Pat Brown and her book, the profile in my life hunting, serial killers and psychopaths. I want to thank you very much background for coming on the program. It's been fascinating and I really appreciate it well. Thank you very much Dan. I'm going to remember your line. If it's not, if you can't teach, is not scientifically correct. Yes, right, ok! Well, you have a very good evening. Talk to you again in the near future. I hope sounds like a plan tonight. Bye. Even listening to a true murder, the more shocking killers into crime history and the authors of the written about them with your whole stands up ascii good evening thugs dark spending.

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