THE TRIALS OF ALBERT STROEBEL-Chad Reimer | True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers Transcripts

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in April eighteen. Ninety three, John Marshall, an immigrant and successful farmer on Sumac Prairie and British Columbia, was found dead, lying sprawled across the Miranda of his farm house, the farmers face was a mess. No smashed in, and cracked blood, covering his forehead around the jagged black hole. The shock neighbor, who discovered the body, rushed to summon the authorities an autopsy corners, inquest and murder investigation followed. Two days later, a handyman named Albert Strobel was arrested for marshals murder struggle was an unknown unlikely killer, shorten physically disabled, the young man, the community knew was not capable of murder and locals, were shocked to imagine a stroll but could have killed the man who treated him like family, but something has gone. Tragically wrong on the nightmare You'll died unravelling. The mystery would take nine months and too lengthy

also see the attention on both sides of the canadian american border, splitting them into pro and anti struble factions, newspapers, devoted page after page of coverage and arms of spectators squeezed into the courtroom: galleries, first trial. In. U S, minister ended with the jury, hopelessly deadlock. The second in Victoria, found him guilty and set an impending date for his execution. They have is heaviest. Hitters, abysses, political and legal, establishing stabbed judgment took part, including former and current premiers, an attorney general and a future Supreme Court justice when the second trial, and with a guilty verdict and death sentence. Many in the public held in protest convinced that a young man had been condemned to die for crime. He did not commit and the jury the attic events would not stop there with a condom

man sitting on death row. The case would take more twists and turns that would lead Albert struggle to the shadow of the gallows. The book to wear featuring this evening is the trials of Albert struble love, murder and justice at the end of the frontier with my special guest author Chad Reimer welcome to the programme, and thank you very much for this interview. Chad Reimer well. For having me on. Thank you very much. It's very fascinating case very, very interesting when we set it in the time frame of the eighteen. Ninety in Canada along the core Canada. U S border, tell us a little bit about the sumac Very a British Columbia set the stage for a little bit

the history of this area and just where this geographically is in on this canadian american border. Tell us where this is right, today. It actually there's a town called Huntington wages, I have ever heard British Columbia Amber but those are about forty five main and drive Easter Vancouver British Columbia and you come down out of Vancouver and you come off will arise in the Fraser Valley, and you go down onto this- is Prairie Sumacs Prairie and if the events that took place right right of long. Their statute come down the bottom of the prairie. But right now, a hundred its border crossing jacuzzi creating further.

But uprising in she. Mass city is the american side dinner and a railroad couple couple railroads go straight: North South, connecting mission to across Fraser River to north and then going south into the United States in eighteen. Ninety about prairie was very, very lightly settled Turkey quite remarkable how recent How do you it was that there were Sophie people around. On the prairie, so few white traveller, percent. Of course, a native peoples had been set. It pushed aside dispossessed of land and pushed onto reserve lands and embassy Mass prairie. The dominating feature on the prairie to the east was was a widely lake that span from

one sided purty along she mass mountain to the other side of the prairie along betterment about four miles or six kilometres cross and then about six smiles, nine kilometers long. I was called soon ass, like that was there at the time I was drained in the nineteen twenty four hours, Domini feet dominating feature to two in the one side and then the other side is this sharp escarpments dead that came down from from the website where that yeah, Jim, last, I state each went and even said that were happening that that we talk about happened on the western age. That prairie end just after two years after creating civic railway had built a spur line from,

mission, which is our North paraphrase rally Street. They build a bridge and am straight down south to hook up with the Northern Pacific railway I came across in in Boston State and the railway itself Cannon sparked a bit of a boom in the boom kind of faded. After a little while but if it mostly develop the sumac city on the american side until the city was wise, the town that bad, even all the Canadians North North at the board, they would go we needed a doctor if they wanted to go shopping, they'll go into small city because there was no other real town. Around habits heard, but didn't

It emerges real town for quite a while cello black was across him ass lake. So these people those soon it's pretty ways. Their life was more nor itself in a wedding. Flying blind didn't exist, anything and actually from any weight for white settlers boat. Half of them were actually american, so they thought well, we'll have to reckon swine at all so and we geography topography was Actually it was a mixture of on the very edge of of rich grasslands, which will produce, because she mass way, grew every year with a flood and then went away and they preach produces these grasslands and on grassland, yet the sheep they cattle in dairy cattle, beef cattle,

by the time you get closer to wear, a railroad was and where all these events take place, it was more marsh embodying Bush and in bushes, and and so it was rare, very difficult to make a go. Farming. I'm told the farmer like a victim. We join Marshall. You know he was one of the more successful actually But it was still, you know a hard slog for him, and you also had you know you like every frontier, yet the population, the white population, why is there a reason, tat people coming and going on with time and marsh had been there for ten years and he was an old timer and the men

The young man arrested for his murder, Albert's global. He also had count had been there. You know almost ten years his family had come and he had bounced back and forth across the border with most mostly in the bees. T side as family life, their property, and then he had to hit a year to before. He had moved back into the american side Summa City side. By like every day. People walking up and down in, and there was no good road, so they use the railroad. Walk up and down I'm going in all from some aspirin Canadian tried to Shamash City, and you know them for the book there,

Oh you constantly moving back at the crowd up and down that railway line, a kind of it all it becomes a character in itself in that in the not only in the book that line itself, which connecting directly connects Albert Strabo hotel, but he staying in to join marshals property, which has again right at the railway yard? Railway bed, you know you'd go off go into his property, but that's kind of the economic agenda and the physical setting for forty events now tell us about the relationship between Albert and portuguese emigrant, which

the difficulty of the accident and to tell us about this unlikely friendship and what that friendship entailed. Ah, yes, they actually were quite well, I dont know close would be a good the term for it, but I'm strabo- was one of the most frequent visitors to to join marshals, place, he would come up and He would come up again and help with the with the chores in the house. He would help with so much. Or is around the thief, the art is well it. We were both kind of outsiders in amongst B B Shamash Prairie commute.

The marshal because he was portuguese and there was very strong racism at the time of or southern Europeans in Portuguese in particular, he actually came from the Azores Islands off Portugal, so his axe, I would have been stronger, why regional, portuguese, He was known as the old man and the old man that was killed and yet the actually was only about thirty, eight and thirty nine, and if it can like, he knew descriptions over me get the sense what kind of likely majority you know, we don't really know much about M M by a girl, so we can discuss it in the way we want and then struggle was an outsider. Partly because of his family? I mean ass. He came from above,

family. His mother died. Copley couple years with few years before the events, He had a half dozen siblings that were still with with him his father kind of lost it after His mother died. He was a veteran of the civil war and who is the german immigrant himself, had come to Illinois that struggle was was born in the family had come to out west in eating eighties. And his father was very restless, he didn't stay at any one. Particular He was continually going off, leaving the kids to take care of themselves, he had a problem with alcohol is invariably so and he did it because it was where you can

I very strongly held back then unregulated and sand. He look really disappeared by the time these events took place and saw his family was poor. It's not that there were neither poor families, but who is poor and his parent, less kids just trying to hold it together and struggle himself was a bit of an odd ball, Ah, he of course physically. Yet he had a deformity over his right right leg at that point, did it do men and twisted his foot in for some? some form. The are, obviously you wouldn't thing going do doktor, especially to get a diagnosis, but he had been told it was inflammation of is his bone answer that that raft him quite,

it left in disabled and of course, at that time I go. That's it that's a kind of defined and rang, and he was not a big fell to begin with the end, though he was shortening his leg, even shorter, and he knew he was even own. What nowadays might be called the belt mentally challenged, or certainly emotionally challenge he he would. He was always for two as the boy, even now, by the time, the murder, by the time the murder use twenty years old in and at that time, and that frontier society, You know a man at twenty years. Old is a man, you know you're out of you found you're, making your own family and so forth, but he was seen as the boy and in part because he just you know he was clever enough in some things, but he wasn't wooden Quaid

They are and others, and also emotionally. He was kind of. It was a little behind is behind the times, with his his age until then They were both outsiders. They kind of offer further struggle, he didn't have a real home and for four for me, he didn't have a family around, so they gotta in all. He was kind like an uncle and enough you type relationship that they be they developed and, and they seem to like each other. Quite as my, but I think I could only too well that they pay like each other's company fell right. You know now covers not just about the relation, but about emotional and develop

What they call them. Just the boy but recently been in a relationship, is Landport with Margaret Bartlett's Don T read from her, but she had three daughters and one of them was Elizabeth, was twelve years old element of this agreement and if it was approved or condone by Margaret, tell us about this relationship, and what it meant Elizabeth was. The issue is third oldest see the bark bed, Daughters, there were eight Bartlett children and Margaret was the mother. Elizabeth was known to be people around believed her to be fourteen years old and

government records show that she is definitely twelve and yet the two of them did developer relationship at first. The mother. Margaret wasn't crazy about it, the father and the situation Charles Barnett was kind of. Once again, he was another father who was kind of out of the picture, not chosen but he was another guy just tried. Numerous things mean nothing seemed to stick. He actually lifted at north, aligning show at the new for good while in in Ghana hotel that burn down. He forgot to get the insurance, so they were left with nothing, and so Margaret Bartlett move the whole family south of line and she bought the hotel. So she was very much in charge. He didn't stay at home. Very often he passed out in in Barnes

do you bar where he was so and she did eventually come around to to do You know in the midst of the trials and be testimony she did come around both of Elizabeth and Albert claim that they were engage. They were officially engaged admitted, they had been talking about the mother mother said Well- maybe I don't think you're in fishery engaged, but they were in a related where they were in a relationship and it always about whether you should say two hours at one point the murder had happened by the aid they would have been married. Then I dont dress each is twelve years old and they get married.

And the answer is in law. Yes, they can be. The marriage bonds for Washington State were that marriage age was eighteen for for a woman, twenty one for a man now that only applied if the parents of the daughter getting married protest it if they say no, we don't give her approval for to get married if they dont protest. That Mary is, there was no. There was no other age limit I'm getting married and the fact that she was thought to be fourteen was significant because Margaret Bartlett got married at fourteen, as is the mother of Algae Elsie David eagerly. Who is this little Putting sociopath was ours

troubles code offended in the first trial. She was fourteen when she got married both about the both within parliament and mud and barely mother were fifty when they had their first children and feared or Davy who eyes the premium at the time, and he was one of the most oppressive mines at busy produce time. He married a girl that was fourteen back need incentives and she died wasn't unusual on the frontier for wait for girls at fourteen to the area.

I'm so nobody really raised have they say they thought and the family kind it didn't protest about. Who has been thought out. These fourteen grain and Margaret didn't see anything and from our perspective, you know market in our daughter. Were useful, is were big. Boys were useful on the farm and daughters were useful in the house. Amazing the kids agenda, they didn't become useful. They wanted to marry the daughters off because they became ill depended so marrying daughters offered its fourteen or fifteen fifties and about a bad thing. If you have her to help around the house which the Bartlett's bit my

It was not as unusual would you would think it would be sure, let's talk about as somebody talking about marriage in and they talked about any engagement, and so the mother knew the father you, but at the time he had no job prospects. He had talked about the money that he had but was complicated. He said he had money in a bank and New Westminster How have you explain that briefly? We don't get too far into that, but the idea that he had no prospects for jobs, but he had approached a couple guys couple barbers, as his idea was that he would like to be Arbour Sunday open a charade, so he did approach apple people, but how serious was he in approach with the first one with the british?

and then the second one. What did he say in terms of trying to secure the barber shop? A business from this panel man named Carpenter, tell us a little bit about his prospects about being a barber. Here I think he was complete, serious about being a barber and it was one of these you no more realistic pants. In our being a bar. It was a bit easier on is his leg, but of course you know working behind a pile in a field even the easiest thing to do, when you do, you know you have to irregular walking? You have to use a k now he he picked physical work, of course, because they had to didn't, have any didn't much of any school training and- and

being a barber would have been a good thing for him and the problem is, of course, the virus coming girl will mean the two that he approached the one, the first fellow he gave his horse to It was the only asset that dead elbow down with his horse. He gave in the horse to take em on as an apprentice MAC. I shot burned down and he laughed so then carburetor opening a barber shop and struggle said. Ok, by the barbershop firm you I'm with everything in it, and also by some some household maybe a sulphur chairs that sort of thing. For you know an anchor. So, while the outcome price is two hundred and fifty dollars

nor was it worked. Fine. I have five hundred dollars in the bank and you know I'll be able to pay you now. These talks, Paraguay Lake, according the carpenter, he's the dodge a character coding, carbon. The talks have been going on for a bed right up until the day, the marshal that struggle which rested and that market partly and Lisbon part by new about these talks. Nobody plants. So from the sound of it. This kind of waste plan that bad always going do too, the money to buy carpenters. Barbershop thou, which had a mob, and that way you know be the basis for and being able to support getting. Mary to Elizabeth, so market kind of new bodies and in general,

a term that would have been the plan. The only thing was stolen had no money, he said. He had two five hundred in the bank but, and he probably kind of believed it, but. Through some really guy G real estate, stuff that his has older brother, our told a brother, heading. It involved been involved in but all the brother then kind of past armies heavily mortgage property to him Albert and so Albert thought he had these properties. I dont think he was aware that they were. There was a fool mortgage on them and he signed the ends up. The bank comes in asking for the money, burning property. Over and

and in his mind you signed and property over, but gets no money, and so he thinks the bank stole his money. So that's why he was thinking about. Yes, I have the money so that Canada picture for he just kind it doesn't get the big picture struggled them. He doesn't understand that Actually those properties were worth anything kaluza huge mortgage now courses, all the brother probably is, if you Eve, It did tell him about the mortgages he he had to have known. Strolled Albert, wouldn't, have understood very well What was going on those older brother? He certainly edge shares some of the blame here, as does the bank and sooner city you lose your aging by Albert. For quite a ride on this whole thing. So

where money wouldn't there, they thought it was. I in the plan there again. I waited a bad, but the mining just wasn't there. Let's get to April sixteenth and George Hilliard Anne and also Albert their fishing at Marshall, Kragans named after John Marshall,. They get scant fishing that day. So they stop at marshals for some milk, which is, he has a cow, and they start many times before and, like you said Albert The gonna of guy visit a more than anyone else. So is unlikely as they are friends they see each other

all the time and there the friendly and they act like friends, and they can stop. You can stop over for a glass of milk. What does Marshall invites them for lunch? What does he talk about to these two gentlemen to Albert and his friend? What does he say yeah at. Actually it's it's not Albert that lets. Therewith Hillyer make up at George comes back and tell downward about this meeting. Actually Elizabeth out Elizabeth. A younger brother George George George BAR? so you got George Hilliard, whose you know that I think he's around ninety than English amateur from England You ve got George Barker eleven or twelve maturity. Go down to fish, as you say, in Marshall. Greekan, yes, named after Join Marshall

I too am behind marshals House and they may, as they have done before US marshals, jovial in a fellow he he gives Malcolm and he wants the company. So he ask when this day for on which they do and he gets talking about Marshall guns. He gets talking in a very boastful way about his girlfriend girlfriend that he has and heal your kind of eggs a moron in achieving way right because it would be like yours was guys. Let us be very good English, I'm gonna like needle him along and so marshalled scarred start well yeah. You know I've got my girlfriend You know I'm gonna go by her addressing and you know I have the money for, and market goes off and gets. Is this leather? I sat a bag of gold coin of

Let me spell them out his hand and half a dozen or so twenty dollar coins. And show them to the boy boys and, of course, their eyes. Just wait lay great up it at the sound. They finish up the luncheon GINO, marshals, happy with himself bragging about these things in and Elizabeth Georgiou Yard and George Barn, and go back to the hotel and George Barbadoes actually struggles, roaming data struggles, renting a house and out in my report the total, the city, hotel and there's the two beds and so George Bartlett as a one bad in our struggle is in the other, and so they come back, and you know they tell Albert all about this meeting that they had with with Marsh

and they told him. Certainly they told him of the money and in and it's pretty guarantee they would also have told them about the marshal talking about his girl I am so Albert. You know, look knew these two things, which would be very important in the in the event that the abbot over the next few days, absolutely, let's get to what happens. The you have a neighbor name, IRA Air Heart and around nine p M hears a dog barking, anything that might be from next over marshalsea might be easy trapper, so if he thinks that might be a bare and won the traps, but he is not going to go over there. There is not enough for him to see.

Yeah. I got to go over there, so he goes over there, the next morning, just after dawn, and they have a little bit of milk for his dog. If you can get some milk, what does he find? you find joint Marshall sprawled out on me on the veranda of his cabin marshals, cabin marshalled head was propped up either on his back marshal had as its propped up on the sale of their the door and in his body are pointed outwards, so and a sheet or hanging off the edge of the veranda and Erhard comes close enough, he doesn't come in

The body here, she's alive or anything like that, but it comes close enough any he sees the nomes had been in others. First was mine, was dried blood all over his front of his face a dark spot on his forehead and of either inside the marshal had been a club together. So he heads off. He heads off Down down the sea pr lying down to the Huntington Railway Station, that's where they have the telegraph and everything to the lead in polite people, long awaited what he's found right now, what do

He called eco tax authorities, and you have a couple lawmen Moors B is involved here, tell us what what police find from there The initial examination of the crime scene, and does this tell us who is involved with this investigation and how police proceed. Yeah. So so what happens? Is that the erhard informed the station master at at their hundred invitation. To do you know he's like at dawn first thing in the morning and defence master. There's no. Please the area before there's, not a single constable between New ice minster and hope, and so he, research master Telegraph U S, minister and William Morris B is, is both the warden

the provincial jail and also the acting? acting superintendent go police on the name should be real superintendent Victoria and the Moors be get in touch with with sergeant in the british army. By new opinion, Dry George Bitten, dry who's, the corner, and they worked on cases before so. More is being pitted dry. Jump on to the next train and ran out to three hours later, the train goes newer spent should emission mission down they get off at ire marshals play

the two other men and Moors bias is, of course, one in charge of now in charge of the investigation when they, when they get to marshals place. What they feel is like a couple. Dozen men moving around walking around the place M, stopping all over the yard and about a bunch? I don't doubt by a bunch of men, huddled up on the veranda looking over marshals body which which so many had thrown up a code. Aren't you so Moors becomes happy. He said you know, I don't know, I don't think he's. He was the one to use oats under his breath, but he was not happy about all these people trade round he comes up and charging dusky takes the blanket off of offer marshals body any investigate

He sees his is a hole in me. The forehead of John Marshall, right above we eyebrow, left eyebrow and he turned him over. Any notice is, of course, to the broken knows he turned him over and visa another whole jagged hole in the lower. The part where the neck joins joins your back shoulders at the base of the base for your neck anything. So you know that it might be the actual wound of from the hole in the front of his head. So he looked around it, but he can't find Any boards on the veranda or in the walls or whatever got a blood. He was quite surprised: us is almost no blood theirs.

A pool of it where, where marshals headlines, but other than that does not help much blood around and he goes in and he plants is around inside. He doesn't really do an inspection of the inside. The fellow who had taken charge- I was a local justice pace and he told him more speed at there. He had done a quickened. He had done in search of the house and found a couple of by their power, of money. Wine with coins and another with we're with dollar bills, with their with big bills. From the back of British Columbia and Moors be on marshals binds itself boys, we had found a pouch studded with lying on,

on marshals stomach pouch with about ten dollars and along with his pipe so the family it had. I been taken out of his pocket, the pouch, and there were they had come out of his pocket when he fell and more speed, you know is if he doesn't look much at the crime scene, notices notices, thingy noticed most was.

The kitchen table had been set for to couple play to matter leftovers on the table. The chairs had been tipped over the two chairs, as if people had just gotten out from some results, it obvious to people had been sitting down. Having supper, there's always one curious coup that that sticks out, and this means that if the crimes in our that a pot of boil potatoes stranded, have

lay between the stove and the table so and whose upright marrying solely he couldn't figure that got there. Nobody ever did Marshall Moors. Be then heads out me ass, you go back down to die, did view station and start organizing his investigation in notifying superiors and so for that starch. His investigation going while coroner, Paden Dry curse the system,

Is it the coroner's there? He pulled you pose a jury of half thousand or so people close around and they hope they hold corners inquest, but that nine they view the body and the next day you have the official corners inquest and that those two things get the investigation going right now you talk about moors, be taking opens investigation and a person named David Lucas, private, investigator, getting involved, and also there had been some one named William Porter that spoke to b and he had been ditching with. Robo at farm. I believe so there when border believed that or suspected that Albert was involved,

And so how do we Lucas and Moors be proceed with questioning Albert's global right? David Lucas is one of those characters it that as a writer historian, to cry which you love to have on the sea in the extreme if I say bookshelf straight out of central casting wide open, walked onto them onto the stage and in large very similarities cos self respect that the law only as much was convenient Lucas one-

living in in tenacity. He moved there a few years earlier and he he actually was the first marshal of the city at first. He was paid properly by the City council, but with the economic boom passed over the previous year, the town and City Council, I d, you know they couldn't pay him full time. He had. You know he did. It work you know if he arrested somebody fer, you know a shitty violation, any you get some money for that, so he had to go back to sell in Milton. And so forth, but he had been the marshal of tenacity. And here she had experience as a private investigator, because his brother Lucas's older brother had run one of the key more successful

private, investigator companies on the West Coast like the pinkertons, but not as big and there is a his older brother was well actually Albert. I ve known Lucas himself had various scrapes with the law themselves up on charges for, his brother for bribery and mishandling pine funding kidnapping in all these things, so he David Lucas, learned all these. The tricks of the tree aid from his brother and when he was marshal of Shamash City,

he was kind of allowed to do. You know what he wanted to try to keep the peace, because in the bomb years there was all kinds of your bars and bottles and gambling houses and everything to mass city end and the count city councils thought. While this, this guy did look she's perfect. I finish: he'll go after arrogant, much know about rights of the defendant himself, No, no! Don't really like matter that much so actually more. He was quite relieved tv. He didn't know o my Lucas from before, but he met Luke at marshalled House Lucas had going down there in the morning and Lucas feel Marsh amours begin on every

and so forth, and from that time all the to them then go back to go down to the Huntington station Syrup headquarters amounting to a hotel, and from that point on the two of them work together in the investigation of of struggle and they pretty much from that time stroll voiced their primary which a primary suspect. The decision on this issue There's an opportunity just stop for a second to talk about our sponsor, which is that the fund. Discover why over one million women are obsessed with Seasonal Subscription box service in every fat fit one box you,

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now tat. We were talking about the build up. The impetus for more is be, and with the help of David Lucas, to be able to arrest Albert struggle for the murder of of marshal of up. So why does it take to be able to you. You talk about this rules that they did to lure him from from the? U S, side to the canadian side, tell us how they did this and what was the rules Would I be one of the advantages moors piece, of course, in having David Lucas, as is unofficial partner, why's, that right from the start, they they suspected struggle because trouble had been seen

that day the day of Joy Martians further when he was ditching with William Porter YE had flashed, is his revolver. He had carried a revolver with them and he had been with a revolver he would. You is believed to be the last one to see Marshall alive, so more be San Lucas down into shimmer city, because course Mars. We himself is authority was only northern lights and Lucas is able to do. He picks up some cartridges from Spain. Cartridges live cartridges, firms trouble roman, outside room. He tricks strabo into handing over his gun with it, which would be the most decisive piece of evidence.

Then he goes down. One point. Straw was outside by talking some friend and all this comes up and he starts talking to omen and structure. Oh you're here to arrest me, aren't you look so No I'm not so Lucas starts talking to embody the investigation and each teasing them with with you, no information about how they're going, how it's going and Sulphur man's as he's doing this, their walking South and the forest knows it there. It confirmed I didn't you know, tell on the credit side and Lucas has all why don't you come in and have a drink outreach struggle does want to do that is finally convinced. He gets it.

Strawberry Weiner sunk, some kind of very soft Duncan Lucas gets his his his bourbon and then they come outside and strolled things all good. You know I can go home now and then, as a couple of steps, walk William Mars becomes up behind him and put his hand on struggles shoulder and arrests and there than in there for the murder of John Marshall. Obviously this whole thing, had been choreographed for end between moors beyond and Lucas to Lord stumble across mind, so that more is being put to ask him. How is it that they get the the? How does he trick him to get his gun? What's once again the rules to talk about the gun? I can very interesting here the guy's option. So one of these, these look at this

go back for it back and forth. Talk anymore, it's beautiful hunting to know tell going into my city to investigate. And during one of these he's talking with wistful just outside the city of town and the quarters in class and really come happened. Yet and your heart out results, and software, like Lucas, says: oh yeah, I just heard from the doktor that term that d, the the gun that that killed marshal was forty. Four caliber and struggle lights up into his all. Oh well. That baby now I only have a thirty eight caliber Lucas has worked well. Can I see it and struggle he's think at all, you know out I'll, go get it showman unconvincing

it's not the garden. So he goes up to his room. Comes back down with the revolver. Annie shows a to G. Lucas and Lucas takes it looks at it. Fees couple have been fired and he could see that a couple. Churches have been fired in Kabul were still in there and he snapshot and puts it in his pocket and jobs. Would you can't do that? You can't take by my worrying

and looks at all, I'm just collecting everybody's around here and at that point turns around goes down to back them down into an hotel and, of course, that revolver would be the centrepiece of the the prosecution case against Albert struggle in the trial. Absolute. Let's talk about this gun. Just briefly, we gonna talk about this trial because, of course, he's arrested and we ought to talk about. His nemesis is very interesting. David Franklin I early, but this briefly tell us about the state

the gun this. This is an ordinary gun and that the time of the term, a ballistics expertise centred around that all guns like this, especially is common gun, were rusty. Just tell us briefly out this gun and the rusty nest of it and its that's it afterwards. It with action. You know. Generic gun pray Gunnar arrive at a quarter when aura swept him. Anything like that five bullet revolver thirty eight caliber, which was had by that time become the most common caliber fora for are Oh two barrels left the same marks on gun were familiar with, Struggle got it there's. Never, you would never did you didn't have the proper cleaning

it was, nor would we know how to clean it because he never out again before he got from a friendly and so who knows when it would have been queen before and it was carried outside and inside, and if those guns on oil, queen properly they build rust, a basque and particularly rust in me, in the barrel, and so most guns in the hand of the witnesses, say that most guns in the hands of just your regular people, Joe irregular people, were, would have rushed in the barrel of some sort. Never builds up. What happens is that the rocks

leaves marks on any bullocks, better shot from the gun, and it was at the time. Don't experts, ballistics experts did not know they knew that the right wing in a gun left marks honour on on a bullet, but they didn't know bad. You know it was like a fingerprint, no two, barrels left. The same marks on on gun were familiar with. I now do right. What did a political, Mr Fate, and you know, do they do the B. Do the marks match that wouldn't come and terminating twenties extensive, extensive research? That would show beg that no two woods, far from different guns will have the same marks. So what the victorian

ballistics experts navy? There were no train, ballistics experts, images guns they would they would try to match. Guns by Spain, while in others once heavily rusted- and I see these rust these rough marks on the bullet in our farm I've- I test fired wine and other similar marks made by the rights that wine as the one that was dug out of joint marshals body and that now that the whole deal the ballistics would at that time. Let's get to this David Franklin, I really. Why he's this? What is the relationship with we tween him and struggle, and how does it come and for what reason? Possibly with this person confess, and what did he confessed to

David airly was fourteen years old, I used the son of early family, which had moved there and nineties his mom was said. She was away. Sisters were away, so he would remain in the house with his dad, who is a hard working carpenter handymen. Things are NOS two, younger brothers and air. We I mean, like I say he was a disturbing little fellow he and he took it into his head to torment struggle as much as he could, helping them with rocks overtime struggle could never catch him because of his leg, but at some point, airily decided that Huey he wanted to

confess to the crime after it happened, then he said that he told me the be and then He told more that that struggle had come the night of the murder and and the two men had gone up to marshals place struggle had gone any early was outside a couple of sharks in struggle, came back with some money and they they headed back for wars me. This was it right. This was the clincher and your course arrested. Early for being an accomplice to the murder and robbery and the first trial where was a trial against struggle and eagerly so even though the two of them were were or enemies they they face. The charges together during the first trial

by which time airily had withdrawn his confession, lengthy confession that he had given tours be, and if he had old another like while they were waiting in prison. He had told another prisoner. The reason why he copied concocted the story was: he thought the more wars, who would brand New Westminster, put him up in another Toto in PAN three dollars and fifty cents a day for being been witness. Am from noise and quite right and is getting these guidelines, and but it had added in a very fascinating

twisted all through the whole thing. Now, in the first trial, it all falls apart. This guy gets up on understand or no heed, yeah yeah he'd, tangled up, he can't sorry. The law had just changed so that now defended defendants could testify at their own trial. Up until then, defendants couldn't until you get up in the stand, and it is pretty obvious from a year ago, if this guy, just full it followed a great historian, completely, can guard and so forth, and so the the crown drops with charges against him by that harms, where case so much that in the first.

The June. The jury is Hungary, they can decide on the charge is gained strobe, mostly because airily had so screwed up grounds case. You talk about the first trial, though, with with the ability for a defendant to take the stand in his own defence. You write that the jurors at that time expected because of this law that they expected the defendant to take the stance of they didn't it was a? U you you didn't have to, but if you didn't, the jury would look unfavourably upon the defendant because of it and struggle over that's divide at the first trial as well can end like you get in that way. You said in this trial he was represented by a very clear

but it attorney name, Ali Morrison and, as you write, the kind of vigorous defence that he employed at this trial was unusual at the time. And you say that that the judicial system wanted above much more decorum to the duty proceedings in court and so that, right from the very beginning, the judge Mccrae looked unfavourably on Morrison for his tactics in defending Albert's Global Vinnie.

Yeah. I mean I was bored at play in the second trial, where Morrison Morton had become very aggressive in the second trial. The first trial was Morrison was a sharp attorney. He was when we think about other defence lawyer kind like a pit book. He fit that mould very much and that that was his his Natural ability back then that words frowned upon, because, of course, you know the court of law be respectful in everybody's, respectful and so forth, and that is that style would. It would really come into play more in the second trial in and in the first

Oh yes, I mean putting putting strolled along stand in a sense. This was the first case that Morrison tried where his defended went to the stand so he wasn't experienced in, but he did know I may meet these. The eighty nine ease and it's like well gift you're innocent, I think your hide. Many people still say that I can't believe that they do because it's just not true everybody from can guide our right to and you out there the farmers urchins that sat on the jury's there, while we weren't guilt or innocence it almost more about here. Are your moral person or not, and if your motor moral person you'll get up there in yield offender,

all in all the other trials at the size of the defendants got up in an testify. Even in the trial in action, the trial it happened just before when the guy was obviously guilty, and there was no chance of getting off, even in that case he got up and and and and testified and struggled so long tat, and he D actually did surprisingly well given his his limitations, but Davy and Missis, Reed or Davy. Second time he had a witness in defended him and in the box he was very good bye like the case just was sputtering and at that point so it is desire. These means it's no good sort

they deserve to have an acquittal because of of Ireland confession and poor performance on the stand, but also that it tied struggle to the murder and without without with the acquittal or with the throwing out of the charges against Ireland than it did seem preposterous to to have it connected, that same evidence. This been discredited to then convince him of this murder now many times good glad they use their, I mean if they had to fall back on right? The matching the gun and tat was done. A bullet was fired from that gun and then.

That bullet was compared to the bullet that came out of struggle of marshals neck and the Brown argued heal your personal dna. Their match match then he's guilty until they fell back on that. But you know, it may be an age direct evidence it always they talk about direct evidence and circumstantial. Nowadays. What we think of a direct evidence is physical evidence that bullet matching the bullet to the gun is directive. Back then, the notion of direct evidence is, I witnessed Shelly evidence, and so when may direct evidence that is AIR Louise, I witness testimony when that falls apart no case false part, because their direct evidence falls apart. So it was a different legal.

I am very much at the time you have Theodore Davy to learning from this first trial as well and in being able to use for the second trial in them. As you read, the book is very surprising to see the trial schedule for so soon Then there was a possibility that the trial would be delayed for six months. They said: let's change this venue, let's take it from new us. Then to Victoria in all cross of the island to Victoria and at the same time,. What was interesting is the trouble with this deadlock jury. He thought he was acquitted

spam. This guy was about what was going on, so he he actually thought that this was a big victory for himself, but this next try was scheduled for two weeks only two weeks later. Yes, yes, so now what changes in this second trial, in terms of both people being prepared, because some of the similar witnesses and evidence of what was still germane to this second trial? Very much the about the guns about the bullets being found by David Lucas, tell us a little bit about the David Lucas Discovery of these bullets and what was questionable about that and what more Ali Morrison was limited by.

In terms of hiring a gun expert and what really qualified as expertise in firearms. At that time, I mean all of the important evidence were used in the case of physical evidence was collected by David Lucas. And it was just quickly taken. He started for two weeks in the trunk them and handed over to Mars, be, and the really question is the evidence that raised eyebrows of martian. Was worthy to empty cartridges. That more is that book is found. Beneath the window of our. Struggles. Hotel room now it had been raining,

November or December. You back Nigeria, so you get so we re it didn't rain and the streets were muddy and somehow Lucas found these two empty judges right underneath, elbows window lying in a number of wet mind, They were lying right on top of the mud and they were, they were clean, break increase so one they were queen. After all this time, they're in the mud and to nobody else. They please had inspected this alley before. In baby, they haven't found these. And that becomes an issue. Of course. Morrison brings it up in both proud, especially the second trial. The wary he accuses LUCA supplanting

Of planting those two cartridges and knows those become the cartridges there you know in a jury mind I would question is of course well. These are the cartridges that that struggle would have taken out it's a revolver. So when you fired the cartridge, doesn't he jack as posted like an automatic hang on the card, the empty cartridge stays inside the gun, and so the present a crown was arguing struggle. Took the to the two cartridges empty cartridges that he had shot Marshall with took a minor. The dining through my tried. His window more saying well cleaner sit on top. There is visa, been planted and gum, like a vague Lucas, just he's a character that keeps giving in her story

ease, ass quote what made you working in the alley at this time because Lucas was go at all around sooner city in the day to three days after the shooting looking for evidence, and even he was after what made you look in the alley at this time and he said well, he dreamed he dreamt about it. He dreamt about the cartridges. In the early afternoon, boars and as usual when he said that it was just the quite a reaction in act here he asked Luke as well with what religion are you, Mr Lucas, and he said well, I used to try being a christian

I'm, not a spiritualistic. Now now I must now I'm now. I belong to the e I'd fellows shrivel, but it was really quite the funny Funny entered it exchange now with this here, you have with fascinating, as Judge Balkans behaviour at the second trial. Now you write, it is it's interesting, because this is new territory, where you have a defended, testify on the stand in his own defence So Albert Strabo got up and they had the benefit. Davy Theodore Davy had the benefit of his first confession or first appearance so that that was transcribed. So he was, he had Strabo off balance with the little gaps or inconsistencies that he had in his in is in his

testimony, but what's most important and surprising and shocking was that judge woken basically interrupted, Morrison, which he was now really peeved. That, because he said then Morrison was was denigrating. These respectable witnesses, character and and and their credibility was question So what he did in fact was not allow Morrison to give to allow a direct examination of Albert struggle and, in effect, interrupting constantly. As you write, he acted like their cross examination. The joy acting as cross examined a rather than the persecution itself, tell us a little bit more about this behaviour and how

an unusual it was yes, I mean it was struggles. Testimony was one of the two decisive factor second trial the otherwise and more convincing link between his revolver and one of the bullets and martial Davy had done its work better on that and that evidence was presented better, but the other decisive part and gave you may have to it was. Was I've struggles testimony with the first? If you being. I raising rock was when Wacom allowed struggles full testimony from the first trial when he allowed for it to be read three hours of reading into the room,

in the second trial, so not only did Davy have access to that in a transcript, but now the jurors heard his testimony in prime number one. So when What, when struggle there now have to get onto the stand to defend himself and he kept on the stand for four

You don't think eight or nine hours over two days and literally the staff that he was allowed to sit witnesses where dwelt, except for women witnesses are women and girls. There were brought him to it to testify and during that testimony in other most, what was taken up for five hours were taken up by Davy and the rest of the time was taken up by welcome questioning the judge. Questioning struggle Morrison got very little time to question him. He came

He would sit. Oppositely start struggle going with Egypt with his story and then a few in it in walkin would start directly questioning school. So, during the time, wind problem is supposed to be questioned by his own defence counsel and I have the opportunity to give his version during that time. Welcome intervene and took over the question and on each step in each of the details, and then maybe it was Davies turn to crossing the so called cross examined

oh I'll, those nine hours, almost all of it wide cross examination by the judge and cross examination by baby, beat the young, the Crown Council and for a very, very little questioning examination by his own counsel, and the reason is that there are no precedents there's. This was the second trial british club or manage their fourth third or fourth drought, where the defendant is testify. Theirs

the new criminal code didn't even specify what the rules were when I defended wish testify, and there was no common law precedent. That said. Well, you know the judge counters step in and grow like so very day. There were no legal protections that would guarantee the defending the right to just unimpeded, give his version of events. Now, let's, let's talk about the verdict and what happens with this case, obviously he's convicted but tell us about the public reaction and above the press reaction to this verdict and also the reaction from Margaret Bartlett Elizabeth Bartlett

and from struble himself. He I wrote. The reaction to the verdict was amongst the public. It was acts quite split, amongst in the gallery of the court room itself, you had blue booze as well as chairs amongst young leaders in Victoria Tories, who, whatever who, following the trial, you had a split as well and should is averted came down there was there were moved to start a petition for an appeal. Am the newspapers themselves were strongly back? They actually get a very, very good job.

But even handed job of of presenting the testimony without comment. Earlier, these long long columns of the trial coverage where it was very accurate, but once once verdict came in they get all they were able to say. Yes, we told you so we we said he was guilty from way back, and so all the press was supported. The verdict, after the public debt have didn't Margaret struggling with Margaret and Elizabeth Partlet were, were those with Barton collapsed, crying a market struggle as well a market them partners, sorry struggle himself didn't, reacted first and then at ease

being carried out of it in that died. He had never believed up until the point that he would be convicted as he he thought tat. He could talk his way out of How does everything but, as he was being carried out, he started in o yelling and screaming in protest the matter, but you know it that matter and so forth, show you it's finally hit many. He he showed some some emotion defiance in the face of the verdict, so that now is the immediate reaction to the bird now,

we talked about Strabo being emotionally delayed or slow. He meets with Elizabeth because this love of his life- and we knew mentioned before that he was told by the mother Margaret. It did this when that happened, that he would have been married. It also talk about the conversation and talk about the conversation that Elizabeth had with struble and what she asked him and who was also listening at that same time and what did they do as a result, if Elizabeth Visited struggle the day, I believe after the convention I visited,

my impression here he was kept apart from their regular population on the equivalent of death row in inner nourishment jail, and she was escorted to sell. And actually it's not like the guards went away or one of the people, s gardener. It's the superintendent of Police, Frederick, happy and she asked you know. Did he do it because she had all along said now, you know she believed that he didn't do alongside he didn't, and at this point he admitted that your future Marshall but he shall with, but always because of you in cheap of course, Europe is weak and she's. Well, what do you mean me. I won't we argued over you in

She will you shouldn't have argued you should just let it go anyway, and so the guards- and heard this, and what partly because, as he gets, hurt him too, which taking notes, he determined to side room, and he has a statement that of what they said that struggle had told- told her Elizabeth had he had charter and so on and he gets hurt sigh has. He gets, hurt a fine statement. So it's it's a confession and then a number of he confessed with two newspaper reporter. He confesses too to his lawyer. I they try

how to get it all here I Mars and tries to get control of theirs, but it spiral out of control, eventually confesses, to see each time in story gets. Oh, he says he shot and so people who had supported him now say well, you said you glide, we don't care in events now. Did you change your story completely that you actually do is how he he was arguing with is and if these convergence, but they were confessions nonetheless fluid saying something that he had denied for nine months. He had said that the marshal said something derogatory about Elizabeth,

and so that that was the argument ensued and this, and he was enraged to the point of murder here. But a Morrison tried to do is very best for a quiet did he felt was innocent and then I think are a client that he felt didn't get a fair trial because of the judges, behaviour and, and Miss steps by his own client itself, but to no avail woody keep his mouth shut. So he really I wouldn't be helped at all, and there really wasn't the really there hasn't, even though he had a hearing about this evidence it really it would. It did make any difference in this. Did it lost. All kinds of sympathy for him believed he was guilty as soon as the confession came out their support for him completely evaporate. You know you

mainly because he had been here had been so adamant that he hadn't been there at all that now you and so people who had supported him now say. Well, you should you glide you'll. We don't care in advance. How did you change your story completely that you actually did kill weather? It was for self defence or not. You live so that public support for him vanished, am and What's this hearing, but in waterways, with an improper very there was no public at the time there There's no avenue to appeal our conviction that wasn't an appeal court. There was an they couldn't. You could make an appeal on a point of law by there was none, none of those in the case either.

So strabo. Ok! Well, that didn't work. I may Maya being a thing: it innocent didn't work now, if I confess Can you explain that you know they know they will even let me go or they won't execute. Well, there is no provision to let him go. There's only one thing left that would save him from being executed, and that was that every murder conviction was sent to meet the Justice Department in art, and they had, the cabinet had to prove it and the governor General had to approve it, and it was that point all the information was sent them travel, all that stuff

they had the power to commute, descended to life in prison or to be sent in stand. That was the only avenue he had at that point and he didn't. It is not a lawyer, but he didn't understand that he still thought he could talk his way out of it by term their work. There were no provisions to to go even even with what we would see as the flagrant violations at the time they weren't, because there were no. There was no law and there had been no case law to to say well, this is the way to finance are supposed to be treated when they're in any day the witness books. This is a law. This is a new law. You can't use transcript from previous it

and an Morrison's argument which actual credible in ways that struggles testimony from the first draft was falling, cherish you didn't have to make you? Can he argued? You can't use that in this this trial, but he was overruled. So very there was no question of law and Yet there were, there was no haven't you to appeal. This has been very fascinating. Talking about it styles of Albert Strabo. Needless to say, his his protestations didn't work out and he was executed. I wanna thank you. Much for coming on and talking about the trials of Albert Struble, love, murder and justice at the end of the frontier. I know this

Does a Caitlin press release given press dot com tell us how they might find out more information about this case. And find out much more about this book well find out more about the book is shaken by it. After that I gave you elbow on Amazon on Indigo- am pro The way that public libraries will another the tree the public libraries ordered a copy, or do I dont know by so many others, their indigo course connected through cause books, Cavan, press, dot com. It has a basic description of the description of the book.

And the blurbs on the back, and you can see the cover and that saw if ever give yours want to go there in and take a look at that- and I dare say I mean it's available for ordering and nearly in it the major the major online store places. Absolutely, while I want to thank you, very much Chad Reimer for the trials of Albert Struble, love, murder and justice at the end of the frontier. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much, and I hope you have a great night. Thank you for having thank you very much good night.

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