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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, DDT, K every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist, Ann Arbor, Dan, asking good evening what do Jack the Ripper Jesse James The Texas servant girl, Anita, later Butch Cassidy in the Sundance kid and Jack the kisser have in common. They were all subjects of true crime, newspaper reporting and eat, in hundreds and now these stories, and that many others are

brought together in their original form in the two volume said to crime, chronicles, serial killers, outlaws and justice real crime stories from eighteen. Hundreds compiled and commented on by New York Times best selling author and former detective MIKE Roth Miller. These classic works, journalism resurrect astonishing stories we'll take the reader on a fashion. didn't journey back in time to when these horrific tales, mesmerized a nation some may find these articles under descriptions of people and crimes shocking by today's standards they are representative of the most colorful true crime stories of the day. True crime, chronicles volume to include stories about Billy the kid Jesse James legendary Jack, the Ripper Lizzie holiday. Anna Maria ones, eager Jack, the Hare cutter Butch capacity in the Sundance kid than abroad,

a murderer and many more shocking stories. Follow along as these reporters from another century visit, the crime seems interview with tis and pen, the stories of murder, evil and swift frontier justice. The book to wear featuring this evening is true crime, chronicles volume to serial killers, outlaws and justice real crimes stories from the eighteen hundreds with my special gesture and was an author in true crime historian, MIKE Roth Miller, welcome back to the programme and thank you so much for this interview, MIKE Roth Miller. It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. This is a fascinating, fascinating book. Let's talk about for those, it didn't hear the earlier interview this month for the volume one. Maybe you can just repeat or right,

a re. Basically, the intention of this and the unique format used to convey these incredible stories sure but background on it. I was researching another book, it varies archives and I kept me crossed fascinating stories. There were written newspapers regarding serial killers and other animals and so forth, and the way They were written, they were very dramatic, very detailed and very grizzly and some some cases, and they just fascinated me- and I thought that was rather interesting, because those stories mesmer

as the country at the time, and so I decided to bring those forward resurrectos stories as they were written because I couldn't do a better job describing it, and if I did some of these serial killers, people say will gees there. That sounds crazy. How do you know Well, this from the reporters who were there at the scene and attend the trials and the lynchings and everything so it was first hand information or in some cases it ends up being witness testimony and is just absolutely fascinating. The detail they get into what they re able to cover. It were speaking of then when, when I was a detective, there are certain things that, you told the press, but you held back a lot right in these stories. Nothing was held back. They talk about the type of crime.

I'm the injuries they describe them in great detail to the victims. They described the weapons used where the bodies or how they were found. It was mutilated how their me lay. So it's it's a fascinating read. It gets into a great deal of detail that people just don't read today unless it's in a novel somewhere, but certainly would not really that type of information in a newspaper today. So with that in mind, I decided to keep the stories as they were written and then provide a commentary from my perspective about these stories and why they were significant or what made the very, very strange beyond what was written in. I wrote that from an historian ended detectors, point of view,

to basically all the stories entering both the books by one in volume to right now, in terms of the content you have the intro, then yet serial killers, the other jack's, the old West, the assassination of resin, Abraham Lincoln, and you have short crimes stories. Yes, oh, let's start with let's start with an you mentioned that you usually have a commentary here before the store Thereafterward. You start off with, of course, the most infamous through crime story ever and character, Jack the ripper. What does we give us? Your commentary the to provide for this, the articles that you present about Jack the ripper well,

one is going to deuce the the crime itself because there's a some people, even though it's very very famous, they do not know about Jack the ripper, and so I had to provide some background about that in the time frame and where is it and what this person was doing and how many they see, formal prostitutes were burnt, murdered and a lot of em dismembered by him in sometimes it just some very strange things of that he did to their body So I lay that out. I lay out what happened in that area: White Chapel in New York, and why and partly not cured in London, and why it was considered a lot, we're clash area where their prostitutes a lot of criminals and so forth, and then I get into

the issue of people who are a debt of five various man, said, I think, those guys jack the ripper that goes Jack, the ripper and the first rather label was called the leather raper I was the first killing and that's because they found a lever apron at one scene and they said, while Jesus that must be the sky it. So they start calling, though the leather apron killer. So that's background information. for people that's very useful by then I get into The articles two regarding the chief detectives for Scotland Yard, who headed up to you. thus the geisha and what he had to say during his interview about Jack, the ripper and ultimately, he he states and I ve, been able to verify a lot of sense and that they did in fact capture Jack. The ripper and I talk about it in there, but they didn't happen.

enough to convict him in a criminal court. So under the power of the crown which has the power of the queen, they cited. Ok, they want to work their sector estate basically and said this is the guy who's been doing eddies insane and so with struck a single stroke of a pan. He was put into a mental hospital for the criminally insane and they called it the lunatic. asylum and also destroy get into in all the stories talk about this who jack the ripper was the revelations about him made by the chief of detectives and, if, quite frankly, if anybody knew about Jack, the ripper is going to be the chief of detectives to handle it at the time, and so his interview is in there about the entire story,

Yeah it's interesting. His I'd never actually read that conclusion that they had captured Jack the ripper in and then put him in a sane asylum. I never read that conclusion in as many jack the ripper books have been featured on this programme. Yes, I know it's like that since then a colleague we call written a book that will come out in July in London and we dug up more information confirming that jack. The ripper was, in fact, captured by Scotland Yard and put into the broad more lunatic asylum as they call it. So we're gonna, dig, Luba deeper were still do and will probably, I think, within another few months, once their archives open up for people to go and will probably be able to identify who jack

the river was well. That's incredible. You have to have a section called the other jack's. What is the other jack's about what they have a jack that if I may, that was a little lighter part of Jack and they called several different people in and went through time, but mainly in the east coast. But one was jack. The hare cutter Jack to kiss her jack powder and Jan the cutter and basically, what it was drugs now, the eighteen hundreds primarily in New York and Washington in some other areas on these coasts, Jack. The hare cutter there were a lot of o wanna be Jack, their cutters once we get out, but when a woman or a girl be walking down the street. She got long hair pony tales. Do you guys would run up to grab them and with joy, though the spray razor scissors cut off their pony tales, keep the pony tells me

here and run away, and this was not an comedy with their allotted copycats going on, so that we reject the hair, color and the stories or in their about here, jack Precursor was just what it says. Once again, there are copycats in the same location, sand. They would write or buggies or a horse or their walking on the street, and I see a girl or woman, they would grabber and then kissed her and the one guide and pink. I would jelly end up with a poem. He had tell him some poem and then they would take off. They would disappear, so that was very popular jack. The hugger as it states these guys would see a woman, and they would run up to her and hug her and the one would fight try to get away. They keep hugging her, then they will let her go and they would run away, and that was a very popular if you want to

It was a crime and a sense, but sometimes I think I love these to the articles are worried. They were may be joking, but there are copycats jack. The cutter was interesting character who did not like come along dresses on when that were dragging on the ground, so those are primarily Washington DC that this occurred, but he would see some the wonderful long skirt and was dragging on the ground. He would jump up with a pair. Similarly shares your grown up to omit gravel and he would cut their dresses off another. six or seven inches away when drag on the ground, and so that was more something over fetish, some bizarre way. So that was Jack. cover. So what I was doing, the research. Quite frankly, I didn't know about any these other jacks I thought the stores or so interesting, because the op occurred around the same period of time.

and I just thought I had to include them because they were so unusual and so different. So that's how all the other jack's ended up being in the book Let's go do of a far more incredible story: September, Eleventh eighteen. Ninety three, you have the courier NEWS, and the headline a murderous maniac and for the audience this. The term maniac is used in these articles all the time it seems anyway. This is a crime charged against Lizzie holiday and a mania like Jack, the ripper she killed and mutilated, or for husband and same manner as second and then the Mcmillan women were murdered through a thirst for blood. Tell us what you had to say

Lizzie Holiday and why you, this story was so compelling. Well, Lizzie, the primary reason there are very few serial killer, women are through time jewelry there, man and in most cases younger man, so that was of interest immediately and I want to start reading the articles about her. I realized that she was probably for most of her life. She she was would be considered insane and she just kill. She killed a couple of her husbands and she would kill for a variety of reasons, but Truly there were never known and so she was eventually convicted and imprisoned and There was one woman who they are

It was like a warden, they call them and their guards who pretty much befriended her and there it was. able to control her, because she was just really while she would attack people for no reason. Whatever her reason was, nobody really knew, and so, when this woman finally told us that she was leaving the prison system, ah Lizzie got upset I just decided to go ahead and entrust the ever to death in prison as she just attacker and then Lizzie ended up after she was convicted of these other murders of Sarah Quinlan eloquent equivalent. She was the first woman to be electrocuted and the United States to receive the debt family. So she was very, very strange, very diabolical and

Some of the articles pointed out. They said that she was the worst woman on earth pretty much narrowed down that she killed five people, her husband steps on two two women friend. Then the nurse and the asylum where she was sense, so she was very, very different, the very bizarre and as far as a story, a very interesting story, You include the Texas servant girl, an hour later, eighteen and eighty four and Austin Texas and this city, Vienna State, a panic and the seven and one women were murdered apparently by the serial killer, using an ax or a knife, tat S a little bit more about this text. The servant girl. In most cases, the women were

can american and in many cases they were there young and what they wore as they were for bed term, acting as live in maids living cooks and so forth, and some wealthy or upper class white families, and this guy would come in at night when everybody was asleep and general generally speaking, kill them and their bed with an act. He would split their skulls wide open, and the articles talk about how the brains are all over the room and so forth. But he wouldn't do this and dumb. They believed eventually, nor the other resources that he was was probably a an african american man, but their word quite sure agenda.

So he went into the sky one that you one room with whether he was a copycat or not, and there were two women in their two white girls in the attack them the same way. He would either cut the throats but generally and acts was use and he would go for the head or go for the neck. A few times bodies were taken outside of the bedroom, where the two occurred. He would drag them off, maybe fifty sixty hundred yards and then he would just go out with an ax or a knife and leave the body, but he was never caught. They had suspicions one time they had a description of a guy who did attack these two girls, who were both white but once again they never got here when they teach he took off, but the Texas,

girl, nigh waiter was that's what they call me in the newspaper articles, that's what he did. He just annihilated servant girls and then there was questioned worry because also the murders stopped and they start happening and other locations, and they were very concerned that this is the Texas servant, girl, NEO, are any just relocated to another city and it was reoccurring whether that's true or not. Nobody knows that at this time, it may have been the same person and maybe copycat. Would they just don't know, but a very interesting story about a man who, used an ax most cases and just were brutally brutally murder people in their bedroom.

You're the story of Anna Maria Zwanziger and born in one thousand. Seven hundred and sixty and beheaded September, one thousand eight hundred and eleven for murder, and this is she working several german homes as a housekeeper and cook. What was her preference for people? She worked with and people should feel sure preference was generally. She wanted to work for judges and upper middle class people and her favorite way of taking up people was with poison, and so she would poison. People and they would get very ill and if she would pretend that she's nursing them back to health and so forth, a few times that work many times the person died, and so they were able to check for a very spoiled back, then their various corners around the world and they kept coming of arsenic, was a very favorite poison to use them and they would find

they eventually convicted her. and as you said, she was executed, but She just had a passion for using poison, as opposed to a knife forgotten or anything else, but she just a very, very disturbed and very interesting woman. Yes, absolutely You have a story called in the brass, a killer. What's the most notable characteristic were thing about this killer that you noted and new included in this. He was very cold and calculating, and when he was arrested,

There are taken in by train back to Nebraska to stand trial and some reporters got on the train with them and As I said, they were just go ahead and conduct interviews in the police would say hey. This is great, go ahead and talk to the guy and in most cases these people would come out with a confession. So yeah I did this. I did that, but he ended up killing six people that they know of him that they prosecute him, for he is only in his early twenties, but he was extremely cool and collected when he was talking to reporters. But the one thing he was really interested in is that there is no spin.

and these stories, no spending by reporters, no embellishment and no fake news. He just wanted the facts, the come out about him what he did and his she was his reasoning. His reasoning for doing it, but he was just a very, very disturbed individual once again and he would you matter fact talked of reporters very slow, the very cunning and one of the people that he killed He killed. This family was a baby, a baby and baby continued to cry, and so he just got maddening killed the baby, they should all they wanted to kill. The babes well would shut up kept cry, and so he did ebony base. We dump. the bodies next to the house and cover them up and took off, but a very cold, calculated character and

reading his interview or from the reporters? It really gets into his mind how he worked add. Also he was a serial killer at that stage murdered quite a few men, just a back. In particular. This is his logic. This is what he is saying and it is very bizarre, because you're in these stories, effectually your listening to him you're setting there as reporter listening to him talk about this and making his confession and so forth, and will you walk away from going this? Guy was nuts and very deadly images?

It's got a frightening to a lot of people being dangerous. New people like that today, yeah yeah he's it's interesting, especially because he wanted only the truth to be had by these. These reporters to document the truth, and yet that's inconsistent with the barbarity of the crimes that he did. You think we got on one where would be questionable the crime somewhat, and he wouldn't be worried about the perception by the public, but they did make sense with his request that they, the accurate, especially given the again the brutality of these murders. We obeyed, lie with right with with an iron in the face and crushing skulls. Yes, there's someone he stepped back militia, wait a minute its houses, brain working and what is the logic behind us? Like a lobby serial killers, Lucy. She was insane this guy, you can seasons

But, unlike a lotta, maybe he probably wasn't an. I just wonder: ok he knows what he has to anticipate he's gonna be found guilty is gonna be executed. So why is he so concerned about this at this stage in insisting that the eight uv print the facts in or not, the nonsense, just the facts, and so we once again it takes you into the mind of a killer in how they thought about their situation at the time. I am so these people, like this. Guy, you wouldn't want to meet him on a dark night anywhere. You, Indonesia, stuff, like that, the text, a servant girl my later and so forth, very scary people very brutal and very dangerous in this

section. You still call serial killers. We covered this with an author in January, the Atlanta Ripper, but it is worth mentioning again because the incredible nature of these crimes The Atlanta ripper is name because there is some association with Jack. The ripper tell us a little bit about the incredible Atlanta ripper yeah. He basically, during the early nineteenth about nineteen ten somewhere on nineteen eleven, he would basically work like Jack. The ripper did, he would work or the streets and LA times had alleys, and he would attack women, not just prostitutes, but any woman walking along it of any age. It could be a mother working class women and all of his victim for black and basically he would attack them

deserted streets and very dark places. He would anguish them obsolete when CM coming and all were killed there on the scene law times he would. What they respect that he would use an ax hand, acts or hard objects and his men, the head, probably kill them all right, if not certainly cost issues and then he would just go ahead and cut the throat or bleed out or beheld them. And the murders jolly always Kerr on Saturday night in the bodies were discovered on Sunday morning. So. In the latter. At the time there were loads of man who were arrested on suspicion. and they were all, were let go and it humor remains unknown to this day? Whether was,

The person working alone or two or what nobody knows, but he's just another. I'm saying he assuming busy, he's just another serial killer that just vanished, and nobody has ever proven to be that person. They have it up to at least eighteen girls female were killed by him. But they don't know if that's a complete number or help truly how accurate is because a lot of them they just round the bodies and they said well, we think it's him, but do we really can't be sure, but it sent a panic through their entire community, especially for women who were working into the evening, whether they were servants and a home or at a factor wherever and whenever

going home especially african american women. They were the targets, and so they were terrified night went on for a while until finally, he just kind of vanished. You talk about the New York Ripper. Refuse me. When I found most interesting was talk of the fear of Jack, the Ripper leaving London in travelling to other parts of the world as if this is what the New York rippers about. Just tell us about that contained yeah. That was an interesting. Case. It was right after you, after Jack, the ripper was active in no White Chapel, London. and they start having some doubts occurring of primarily process

Toots, who are found nearly killed in the same fashion, Jack the Ripper in London, and I mean their bodies were mutilated than others, one that the guy remove of some weeks ago. You remove the woman's intestine coiled them upon the table. Next to it removed organs. Some of the organs of these people were missing He took time to not only kill them, but dismember them and by taking the various bodies, Parker, assuming that is taking a trophy. So I know a few, the murders I dealt with as a detective that they would take sometimes clothing, sometimes part of the body as a souvenir as a reminder of this murder they committed, and so what was really sad about that there was a egg.

This thing in hotel, Millicent Fellow was not fluent in English and he was down the hall from this one woman that was found mutilated and his name was Frenchy and. for some reason. The detectives, probably because of pressure there getting arrested him and he was charged. And so forth, but as it turned out in all the information in here now it happen. What down? He was not the murderer, but they were just fine with having him go to prison and probably be executed. They are thinking the beginning and he was

not the guy, and so what happened? Was there a number of reporters who were at the scene and the detective claimed that there was a blood trail leading from that room in his room and they were there right when the detective was, and they said, wait a minute there's not. There is no blood trail and other things that he talked about the detective it so. Finally, they brought this up in the governor Pardon this man after a number of years, and why the detective or detective falsified the information and the evidence to convict this guy you'll just never. Now, and now it's it's something. That's horrible speculative been easily executed.

and even today, things like that occur, but the New York Ripper as the sky was known, ass, just vanished, once again. Nobody knows who you who he was left is as an opportunity to stop for this break for our sponsor, which is best beans. My favorite guilty pleasure right now is watching, Netflix to crime docks like the recent the night stocker another guilty pleasure right now is playing best. Fiends is always a lot of fun by this means as a unique match. Three puzzle game with literally thousand the levels and new content added. Constantly I've just start playing a few weeks, go, and I'm already on level. Fifty and obsessed

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just one more level with more levels, events and challenges added every month, so you can binge and binge and never be bored download best friends, that's fiends, free today on the apple, app store or Google play. That's friends without the are best fiends now MIKE the next section in your book is the old West remarkably, an incredibly you talk about all of the people that we think we we know through movies, like Butch, cashing in Sundance kid, nineteen. Sixty nine Paul Newman and Robert Redford betrayed these outlaws, and this feature film you about commentary for which causing the Sundance kid. What is that? Well, basically, it's the there too. Story with. Why should we ve seen the movies we read books? We?

read stories and in more cases they're wrong. Yeah. These guys were out laws. They were doing very thing but what was always interesting is that in in the movie, they were the Redford and new, when portrayed these guys yeah they were criminals, but their candidates, fun, loving guys, you know, gather pulling some robberies and this, but there Really don't want to hurt anybody in the living room and a twist. Well, that's what most people believe, but these articles get into it. They weren't fun, loving guys they were roof of criminals and they killed a lot of people and they're always involved in criminal activity for a long time they had some of the articles are talking about how which Cassidy for better term ran. If you want to do

Small Army in the rocky mounds, of about five hundred outlaws and the out, and then they would move through different era, but then. Finally, there was a. conference that was conducted with the governors of Colorado, Utah while many and I believe, was Idaho that they had to stop capacity and they had a far better to combat put together their group of people to try to hunt them down and so it gets in the whole story about how bad these fellows, really were and it goes from for better term from their beginning to their end in Berlin and makes it would happen. After they were being chased. down here in the early nineteenth hundreds and a lot of their

if you want to save their captains of their outlaw gang, were captured or killed and kind of genuine their own way. They took off and went to. Firstly in Mexico and Central America demanded of Bolivia, and then they start robbing people again robbing train. stage. Coaches, whatever was an dumb. They killed several people in Bolivia than they were running again as their being chase down into. Seventeen in that area, but it up in Bolivia, worthy found them hiding out they had a shoot out with some troops, military troops and they were killed at the time. But what is interesting is that, even today, a lot of people believe that they escape

in that they made it back to the? U S and continued just a quiet life that is interesting, but the bolivian so the people by soldiers they killed two guys they buried him down there, and everybody else historians. I believe that that is absolutely true that they were buried and the rest of us just folk lore that they made it back to the states and they live quietly of hereafter. But this set the record straight because these stores were written at the time and it gets into what bad guys they ve truly. Were their gang and how long they terrorized a section of the country. So it will then light in a lot of people. Absolutely

You include a story called the men, KEDO executions, particularly disturbing thirty. Eight sue, Indians hum eighteen sixty two while the civil war in the- U S was raging. Tell us about the story amicably. Yes, it really related to all the press coverage was nothing. It was literally to two sentences, and that was it What happened was round eighteen sixty two, the Sioux nation up, and that the code is for Bertram there being faded by a lot of settlers moving in. taking their lands, killing off all the game that they survived on and a hunting party without one day and they ran people and they hunting part about five or six sue and they killed these people. These white people that were there so that got everybody

so he very upset that pursue were doing this agenda. The civil war was raging. going well for Lincoln and Union and so long, didn't have to do something and he was getting pressured heavily because this could be the start of another war with you donations and then he was worried that well, if this, if they start Fighting the Sioux. They ve got a poor soldiers away from fighting the confederates and there he was concerned that the other indian nations may join the Sioux and, quite frankly, at the time, the planes Indians were the best horsemen around and probably the best soldiers around and so He authorized to have the army go in there and basically tried make a deal and bring these people then, and there

They said. Ok, they'll do that, so they went out there and negotiated with this one chief and he brought in his warriors and they are arrested. They brought in basic about forty five hundred. The records are completely clear on that, but they brought a man. They serve hundred and then they decide. Ok, we're gonna put all these, is on trial, Wally's Sue Indians, so they have a military. The tribunals somebody the trials of these fellows were about a minute. Longer. Thirty seconds said: what's your name, they give. The indian name is a fine you're guilty. You're gonna die next Skype so they re up through this. They send a letter to Abraham Lincoln. This general does, with all these indian names Do you want to hang all of them all a mature guilty? He wants exclude all of it. It was over

a hundred Lincoln's Morgeson, none on her one week. We can't just arbitrarily hang the forty five hundred. Sue Indians because that will not go well in the country, and so she with indignation. So he no doubt it is all just give me the ones that rape white women, so that came down a very short list, just a couple aces. Well, that's not good. We ve gotta got execute more to show that we are serious about this and to try to dissuade them from killing more whites, so he's personally selected. Thirty eight names indian names, to hang them. He issued the order. It goes up, so they have a massive gallows built to hang all of my one time. Their brilliant

soldiers. They surround the area. They start calling off the names of the shoe to take their place under the hangman's news and they call em off. They walk up there and they start singing the depths of the chair and they hang him all both their done. Thirty, eight of well, they find out later that two of them that they hung. They hung by mistake their young kid I and it's just that when this soldier com off the names, the kids. It will that's me because he mispronouncing so they walked up and they were hung by mistake. There completely innocent, so they take the bodies

they buried in the sand down by the river and then some other people go and afterwards somewhat for souvenirs for body parts and they take bodies to sell em to doctors and two for better medical schools. So they could perform autopsies on these cadavers and and just learned from them so that they do that. So all these people were killed as the largest mass execution in american history. Yet in eighteen, sixty three, I think was the December County Beacon. They maistly had six words about it. It just on the date. Thirty six sue Indy

Tom in Minnesota. That was it and then in eighteen. Eighty one. There is an article about one of the the board stored the two by force or for by force our used from the gallows to hang the Indians that it was being donated to the State University of Museum Saint Paul and also a great artifact, are proud to have it and then later on in eighteen, ninety there's an article. About a guy coming in the town and he has a scalp from but the issue that was hung back and he got it from his brother in law whose you're so what's interesting, is that if the largest masses execute, in U S, history, and yet the first article was all about six words. That's it, and that just shows you how native American

at the time were. What do I mean if they killed thirty six dogs or something or cattle? It would probably have the same response in the newspaper, so he just takes you back to a time, and you can understand how native Americans were looked down at the time and we still have it'll years down the road, the ended wars, but you just look at sea, while is only six words when they hung all these people and two of em by mistake to kids and that's all unwarranted in the media have credible. Let's talk about another person, Edison immortalized in fictional eyes and Billy. The kid tell us what you found out about Billy the kid that opposes the mythology. Well related the true story about him and a lot of it. We ve some of.

We heard a lot of it if you want a twisted, because different people didn't have the information or they want to write the story, the book in a different fashion, but these articles were written at the time they were written by reporters who spoke to some of the people. There were around him over the years and really talking about how many people he killed and how many his gang ended up killing and how ruthless he was and then eventually he was killed. That's what's been reported in the newspapers to buy. You share FAT garret when Billy was hiding out a ranch after he escaped killed the to Lord forced to deputies in town and he escaped went up to the ranch and they went out and at dark

like upon, the house and gear went into the room and that's when he saw the person he said was Billy the kid walk. Yet and that's what he so it gets into. What real they occurred at the time, not what contemporary stories say, or television but I guess, you're a good look at or Pat Garret the sheriff at the time in the history of building, the kid when he started out and

through his life, what he did and how many people he did kill and how roof was he was. You also deepen the story, or at least you discuss the story that even some newspapers spoke about about the idea that he had escaped and went on to live as life somewhere else and that they pat Garrett, his former friend the sheriff we had shot him apparently do substituted. A different corpse was so you talk about that that's story and why we are pleased that that that's, why do some people start saying, is that when Billy was shot LAS Vegas New Mexico, that it really wasn't him that it was somebody else. Garrett decided

to bring this body and say no. This is ham too. There was a reward then, but also for the notoriety he wanted to kill daddy escape, but the odds are it. It was once again was Billy. The kid and duchess setting you know. History straight is that this was written at the time and these reporters, crawl in there and talk to him talk to people that were out there when he was shot and so forth, and so there no doubt that in my mind, that Billy was killed them. You also talk about Jesse James and you have a particular commentary about Jesse James again, one of those people that the one without loss of people believe through some movies and from stories that they know

about Jesse James. You set the record straight, tell us about a little bit about Jesse James, Yet just she started out really killing people with controls raiders during this civil war. He first went there after there's some killing at his. Parents, ranch and so forth, and his brother Frank was already riding with controls, raiders and so Jesse one time The joint is to know you're too young get out of here. He came back What do you still young once a year after six, fifteen sixteen seventeen and he D, controls raiders and they were a band affiliated with Confederacy and they would re various cities mainly employing Kansas in that area and he bragged that he,

the old. You know at least thirty six, forty people in this one raid, in Lawrence Kansas when they went in there and they basically killed all of the man and all the boys in that town, and it was approaching about two hundred if you look at more than that, and as a result of that, the confederacy for better term pulled their support from Kwan trial because they what people just being slaughtered just to be slaughtered, especially boys and so forth, an innocent man and so just see in that raid claimed he killed. Thirty six probably did maybe more, maybe few less, but it's just a matter of he was very, very vicious and, Then he went on with his brother, Frank, James and so forth

and they form their own gang and they start pulling robberies and so forth of banks and of stage coaches and so forth, because that's what they knew from writing with Kwan Trail that that's what they would deal and dough Finally, he was he and his group were so sought after in terrorizing, that area of the nation that the governor basically was hiring people to go on finding Forget it. I m almost like private detectives us with another criminals, and to eliminate him, and so eventually that's exactly what happened. There were a couple of guys who were no better than Jesse came to the house as friends. You know in the past when they were in the living room chatting Jesse want too I know of a picture on the wall and dusted off

he was shot from behind and by what are these friends appears, and so eventually they were born, If he was indicted put on trial, for it was very rapid and it was over quickly but there's no. doubt in anybody's mind that the governor knew about this well in advance. And these articles talk about this hell He knew these two guys and basically was talking about the Argo Outsweeping get him, but then they go into the body of Jesse and when their describing the body, the reporters nor this route Jake Report had a fascination with him. He had a magnificent physique and discipline is laying laid out dead and that even those in this

pride of health and spray than he is commanding figure and all the sort of stuff, and so even then, the legend of Jesse James was being built by some of the reporters that were there the way He described everything and examining the body and so forth. So it's a very interesting story about the history of Jesse and Frank, James and so forth, and it brings up a lot of areas that, let me just are not covered in other books or stories television so forth. It is fascinating. Did you talk about the ten thousand dollar reward and then the motivation for this Robert and Charles,

to be able to try to kill this person that they knew they stay here. I'll stop with the detective. As you write and said, listen, we know these guys, I've known him for four or five years, so they could identify them, but they also knew the country they knew of the lay out the countryside, and so they figured between them that they have to kill him. There was no way they were gonna to take this guy prisoner, so they wanted to get close to women. Lucky that their Jesse James needed some people for a bank robbery. He had rob the bulgarian awhile and was low on funds, so they gained his trust that way and and fascinating too, as you write that they had to work, he turned his back was turned and they had no access to weapons sold to make sure that they could kill this person and get that reward.

And you are right. I think they were. They were terrified of hill. I believe and that's why they, because there were two of em. They could pull the guns on him any time when standing there the day before whatever, but they didn't so they waited until which turned his back. They shot him. His wife was in another room in the house. She ran ran into that. Marion realise what happened in these two I took off, but they went To the sheriff after their today week, we just kill Jesse James, and that was pretty much the end of it, but in a sense they became. He rules the salmon villains to other, because a lot of people who, at the time that they were in tree by Jesse James as it were, a lot of other outlaws and especially if they were supporters of the confederacy and they knew

they were with the confederacy fighting with them. So you idiot searching it brings both sides in the play. It brings the the true horrible outlaw that they work in killers, but you also see the other side of how some people, and especially the reporters, viewed them yeah. They were criminals but kind of romantic criminals in a sense. So it's it's varying showing the way the stories are written excite as emissions. They don't hold anything back. They they talk in detail about the womb lies in what went on and so forth so ages. It takes people to a different level regarding the history of Jesse and Frank. James? You also right that when Jesse was fourteen and his older brother was in the quadrille, that they wouldn't allow him into the into these re ended

into the gang. What then his stepfather Doktor Samuels you write a pronounced secessionist. They had a visit from the had a visit from these union soldiers. and so the strong him up our room who produced and strong em up- and he was later cut down by Jesse's, mother and sister, were imprisoned, and so that at fourteen see up as you write it, it set him off on his murderous future than the ass. It did he at at that stage ii obsolete

aided the union more than any. He had not passed after resolve their personal attack by the soldiers on his his family. That was it he did whatever snapped in him or did snapper thousands decisions at okay. I M going to go with my brother and for better term seek retribution for my family on the union, people of the union at the time and not the confederacy so yeah for a young boy at the time he was, he was ruthless as absolutely You include at the end of this book of several true crime story, so we don't have time to go into them. But what is some of these stories? These articles, these headlines? What did they indicate in and tell you and why were they included? Ok,

the one I have been there about leakage assassinate but in the short stories there because some of the more than most of early may be a hundred words are very short but they get into society at the time. What was if you want to take the boy was not acceptable and how people were to react to it like there's one? I have an air. This girl was dating. guy, and he was also dating another woman, and so he took the saw the woman out for a buggy ride. This other woman She knows you're going out, so she gets in the buggy chagos after a month. She catches overshoot the kills both of em so jealousy apply, which you see today, man. There was one truly interesting story, but

It was repeated many times another stores, and that was the it sounds crazy, but the dead, Blue come negro which they are and what they believe was that your fate it fair african American, had blue gums his by was as deadly as a rattlesnake, and so I found numerous articles about this back then, and I put this one and how they want to there's this guy. He bit some people and they died afterwards. They should see that that proves that ISA blue Blue on negroes rose hours, Delhi's rattlesnakes, and it was folklore that was believed for many many years and, as I put in there There's a story, but then also button there from the Cleveland Clinic about human by tell how they can become badly infected, especially within the new antibiotics,

You break the skin, no antibiotics till she from a human bite. There's a chance, gonna become infected and then you're gonna die from the infection, so that that was one that found very interesting there's another were too Go con man, they had a back then worthy Nepal in Amelia their wealth, restless you this guy sitting on his porch, making a rancher and they want to buy it and they they pull out some gold bricks and said here's what we're going to buy it with. So they cut the deal they get some cash advance in the guy finds out. These freaks are not gold. But he was scanned and other some really kind of each thing funds for their sake. They found his body and they didn't offers a Joker murder because it was all pretty well mutilated, but

pretty much determine that was cadaver from a medical school that some guys took out and chopped it up and shouted up and dumped in the river. But the most interesting one at the very end I closed. The book was a defence of a woman. in Washington, DC during the civil war, and she was captured by the union aiding and abetting thing is a spy in, and aid for the confederacy, so each time been catcher They would go when that was execution, then, and so shortly afterwards, the genuine charge I was holding her, would receive a notice from washing DC release her. So this happened several times and obsolete was puzzling to this general desire, but also be hungry. Shot was

until she was running a brothel an abortion clinic in Washington DC and, if so, what She said she would. She was servicing a lot of the politicians a high ranking, Paul, maybe sector stains of congressmen. Senators issues also performing the abortions on their girlfriends, and so this is why she kept getting office confederates. aye. But then she actually shoot somebody by gashes blackmailing. She gets on a far better The trolley and she shoots at him. She, MRS, kills the guy next two amendments on one

She goes on trial and she's found not guilty of this, and what is interesting is that the government is having been court. Many ties the old chest flying is that the defence attorney basically wanted her to be found in saying because they should go free, and so the question was asked wool how insane he stole just insane enough to get her off. You know you'll get attorneys, then, that's what they do today. It hurts, but but the back story on her there's truly fascinating. They wrote her entire backstory under Nazi lulli. The disguises and yeah just eat the all the people she slept with the cheap blackmail them and the incredible amount of people that she had time

with in Washington at that time. Yes, yes, it she's, always dressed like a man when she was going down to bring different supplies and information. the confederates, so it was truly sure The story in herself absolutely I want to. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about true crime, chronicles volume to serial killers, outlaws and justice real crime stories from eighteen, hundreds for people that my one take a look at other work work and they go, and this is a wild blue press release and tell us about your upcoming h, H, homes release. Oh yes, what's to find out. more about me in my books. There all available on Amazon,

I just got Amazon Box and so forth, and one just came out with its doing really well is I obtained be if you want to see written confession, but it's kind of a confession and non confession of H, H homes that he rode while he was in prison awaiting trial, need bench would be executed for, but it gets sent you. It's absolutely comes from him, that's his words and though there in their entirety and it just fascinating because it takes inside of that guy's mind and he thought that but he was very tell us, but he probably thought that he could outwit everybody but Was he setting the record straight? Knowing he would die? Or did he actually believe this, but

If anything, it was his way of trying to pass judgment on himself that use really nemesis guy. So that's out Amis it. It is far better his diary about killing people and so forth and why he was truly innocent. So gives another perspective. It goes inside of a serial killers, mind that will be. fascinating. I'm very very anxious to read that and anxious to discuss that with you on the programme very very soon. I want to thank very much Microsoft, no ever coming on and talking about true crime, chronicles, I am too serial killer there's outlaws and justice real crime stories from eighteen hundred spin an apple.

the pleasure. Thank you so much like you have a great evening. The night you're welcome, take taker thicker. What do you want to talk about that, and I have no doubt that we could switch because I am, we could switch to progressing so we can devise on Zan much different graphic centre and get them out of the money. We thought we now we're gonna do these days. Nothing is normal and everything is weird it's still save big when you switch to progressive. It might just be the most normal thing you done today, but rather that car prices will you drums company affiliates, introducing tax free payments from pay power as safe wave your car, first to pay.

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