Die For Me: The Terrifying True Story Of The Charles Ng/Leonard Lake Torture Murders by Don Lasseter. Inspired by a fictional book called the Collector, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng abducted, tortured and murdered women in a secret home made dungeon, all the while videotaping their ghastly deeds. They took the lives of at least 16 victims and are among the most notorious serial killer teams in true crime history. DIE FOR ME: The Terrifying True Story of the Charles Ng and Leonard Lake Torture Murders-Don Lasseter
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
And now add from dad rife, save money on car insurance when you bundle home and Otto with Progressive catechism. What is this? Where did you get this, I'm talking to you with the hair yeah? Where did you get this good stuff
and solid? That's not veneer that solid stuff, progressive cats, eighty from becoming your parents, but we can't save you money when you bundle home and auto progressive casualty, insurance company affiliates, another insurance discounts not available in all states, or situations, blink and they're, going to find out who they are without us all. The more reason we come to West Virginia to introduce them to simple things like rolling hills walks in the forest, warm campfires, and we hold on to that feeling for as long as we can find your version of Heaven. This fall at wvtourism, dot, com, lots of rain You are now listening to true murder,
shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating other talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers in who crime history through murder. With your host journalist and Dan, asking. Good evening this is your holster Dan's Patsy for the programme to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Today's program is with we're Doin, Lassiter,
Let's say you just bought a house. Bad news is you're one step closer to becoming your parents, which means you're going to start telling your kids to clean up before the cleaning lady comes doesn't make sense, but you're the parents and their the kids you're going to start telling them that now too good news is it's easy to model home and auto through progressive and save on your car insurance and there's your opening to remind them who pays the bills around here. Progressive casualty, insurance, company, affiliates and other insurers discount not available in all states are situations. His work die for me that era, true story of the trial thing Lenny. Lake torture, murders inspired by a fictional book called the collector Ex Marine Leonard Lake and Charles being abducted, tortured in murdered women in a secret homemade dungeon. All the while videotaping their ghastly. Deeds took the lives of at least sixteen victims and are among the most notorious serial t in true crime. History die from me: the terror,
fine, true story of the trading Leonard Lake torture meters by dawn Lassiter. My guest lassiter is now working on his 19th and 20th books. One was about world war to one about the Kennedy, fascination and one called the bridge, Russia, Cornwall Companion, all the rest in true crime. His first book was published in nineteen ninety five Welcome program and thank you for green. This interview, dawn, Lassiter,. Thank you for inviting me down been looking forward to talking about Charles NG, yes very much. This is. This is quite the story, an incredible story. Now this question I have to ask you: have you written about many other cases? What specifically made you decide to write about this? One. As a general rule Dan, I prefer not to have high not to deal with high profile cases like this one I'd much rather,
like the small, relatively unknown case. Tell them everything with immense plot and I'd. Have I publicity but in this case my my publisher gave me a bus and asked me if I were the drop over to the trial, which happened to be a change of venue from Northern California to Orange County where I live, so that was pretty convenient, I agreed, I went over and sat in the trial for couple days. It was hooked. Obviously this was going to be a very, very important programme story. Now, a british author named John Fowles had written a popular fictional book called the collector in nineteen sixty three. It ends up being quite significant to the story before we get to the significance. What is the book about and from whose perspective is the story primarily toll.
The collector by John Vows is about a young man, Frederick Plague, who is a butterfly collector and he thought for a very pretty young woman named Moraine, but he realizes that he just not her class, and he just has a lot of fantasies about her. Acclaimed comes into a good fortune. That would have allowed him to buy out in the country? this brilliant idea to just capture Miranda like he does his butterflies? Can Are there until she falls in love with him? The person the book is told from his point of view. The second third is from her point of view and then finally, the last part of his point of view. Again he holds her. He does not fall in love with him.
He hasn't. He does not have sexual fantasies about her. Unlike what we see Mayo, drowsing Leonard like it will, let me let me go. Let me cut you off right there, so we can pull this story here ' 'cause. It is very complex story as well, so we gotta get everybody to get the facts straight here now in the book the collector The imprisoned woman Miranda tries many ways to either escape or persuade her doktor to let her go does. The collector ever mentioned that he might let the woman go. I think in the book he he hints at it sometimes, but I think he has no intention to let her go ever eventually. She she comes to know that that she's not in real real danger, but she fortunately dies anyway, while under his control programmes from pneumonia, we don't know. Ok, I'll Leonard Lake is one of the killers featured in die from me and what was
when Leonard Lake like what was his background and fine? He was discharged from the marine corps because of medical reasons. And again, can you tell us what that medical reason was so give us? The back on a letter like what was he really like and what was his some of his background? Well Leonard, like was born, and Navy man on a young woman in San Francisco apparent soon split up when they are when they woman, decided to try to pursue her husband ex husband. She went to a train station with her two babies. She had asked Leonard, who was only six at the time if you'd like to go with her and she said no, but at the train station he decided he wanted to go and just had a big fit right there on the platform, but
We had to stay home with his grandparents psychiatrist later suggested that that was the beginning of Lynyrd Lakes. Hatred for women. He grew up in an he. Never lived with his parents again lived with his grandparents grew up in San Francisco. Went to high school has some peculiar characteristics. One of his cousins later reported that Leonard had a huge collection of mice, and when he got tired of them he gave them away and killed the rest of them. And now the chasm Watch Leonard Dissolvent asset that sort of gave a hint of a peculiar man he was going to bed. He has certainly certainly now of continuing with his peculiar behaviour. Maybe could discontinue with his background and of leading up to his assent in the Marines Gracchi. What your high school and a joint soon after I go, join the Marines went to Vietnam. Is there some continent
please, where he actually saw combat or not that he claimed he did later. I think he confessed to confess to one woman that he spent most of the time uh an innovative safe place, but he came back all disillusioned by as many real that not Vietnam veterans dead and now decided. I want to be a survivalist preparing for a future holocaust in which the world would be destroyed and he decided he would have a bunker equipped with all kinds of supplies, so he could survive and he would like to have a woman in there too. Eventually he decided that that woman would be his sex slave, and that became a fantasy for him is stemming from his having read the collector when he was a teenager, but he perverted it somewhat fells character, protagonist. It just wanted the woman love Leonard admitted that he wanted the woman just to be a secular. Now, when we talk about the Leonard Lake,
you're doing a student in Vietnam and Marines. He was this urge for medical reasons like I'd mention, what was that medical reason? I think it was call him pending psychosis or something of that nature. He apparently had some very serious mental problems. Didn't he psychiatrist who say that he was a arm to himself or two others than without inclusion they made at the end. That grant probably would be armed. Ok, now, Charles in is the other killer featured and die. For me, what was his background and what type of character was? Charles NG was born in Hong Kong to a middle class family. His father had survived the war and worked his way up to become a camera salesman for a major company. Had three children and determined
the money that his get we're have a great education. They live high rise apartment very crowded. Several wealth is living with them, but child didn't seem to go along with the idea that education was an important, so his father, Sir, sometimes had to give him a pretty good spank. He was later accused of him severely, but it didn't seem to change the young man. Eventually, they sent the young Charles INC to England to live with a relative that didn't workout and then, by the time he was in high school age. They sent him to San Francisco to live with an aunt. He did that for awhile and us, but as soon as he turned eight. Join the Marines? That's how I got in the brain because he's gotta you citizen somehow it was suggested that the documents were forged between alive to get em they're. Ok, I see
Now, how did Charles NG and Leonard Lake eventually he said both in the Marines? When did they? How did they meet and where were you lay decided, while he was in Conaway Bay in Hawaii that it would be a good idea to feel some weapons from the armory in selling for profit. He did and he was caught and he was facing a court martial, but he escaped and made his way to San Francisco. While he was in Hawaii, though he had met, he had been met with a few other fellows. Who wanted to be survival is one of them. A mission that he'd do a fellow member in California, ain't Leonard like there was a survival, was so when Mab trolley came to San Francisco Well, are you absolutely? We join the Marines, he stole weapons, he was going to be court. Martial escaping comes back any links up with Leonard, like a little town of FILA, Northern California,.
Now we spoke of the book of getting back to the book, the collector, the fictional tale of a man who is a butterfly collector, who fantasize about collecting a woman instead, one day acts upon his urges. Now this book was Leonard Lakes Favorite, and why was it his favorite and what was it about? The collector that interested him so much. Well, he read, it was a teenager and I think he began to it. The idea of having a woman is a camp David S have complete control over woman, but he peace he. His was a perverse view. The protagonists in my files, but just one of the beloved lettered one of the sex life. Now, there's another central character to the story of her name is clearer Lynn, values or cricket, her nickname, and describe as the girlfriend ex wife slash girlfriend of Leonard Lake, who was she when did they meet and how close
they? How well did cricket really know Leonard Lake. While, where Leonard Wood moving around from town to town after getting out the moraine here, was a pseudo photographer, he had learned young women and forbidding red methods, were them into voting and tried to get the mood for him. He found at one point in California, a man who, owned a year ago that had been torn transformed, the single horn to make it look like a unicorn Leonard. So that is a great attraction, the young girls. He took it to be a renaissance pleasure, Fair and Marion County North of San Francisco, and while he was there demonstrating the goat and trying to lure young women to oppose
this, young woman came by clearly belies cricket and they really hit it off together. She was equal to him and he is weird simply humor is his job is Annie centres. In fact they they became lovers and eventually married and eventually divorce, but they continued their relationship together for the rest of his life. No, you say the tea, they shared a mutual interest. In fact, how important was sex to Leonard Lake and what were some of the features of the sexual buyers even early on before his? Her was realised in and was constructed. What wish the features of the sex life it may or may not be in a precursor to some of events. It happened later. What what was his interests liken? What we some of the features of that sex life?
Well, actually, she went along with the idea of capturing a woman in using him in a measured while forcing a woman to be a manager problem with him, but they didn't have to force it. In some cases they met young women who are very willing to perform with them. They were both highly experimental and sexuality. They want tat at one point, made a tape of themselves: that was shown in the trial later to show the cricket belies was. It was probably comparable and the murders that happened later. Ok, the Lake Leonard Lake relocated and put his sexy slave plan into action, whose property was it where he Did this construction of this bunker and and.
Whose property was this and give us a little bit of background on on the construction of the bunker itself and how this his plan to have a sexually came to wishing what was the? What was a turn of events that that lead Leonard late to be able to begin achieving his his long long time fantasy? a little ways at final, where he met Charles Edward Childish connected with it. He and his wife we're living in final operating a little motel. Trying to show up- and they working the three of my living together, but because trolley had dab and stolen those weapons and was a fugitive from Marine Leonard, also stones of weapons and burglaries. The F b. I got wind of it
raided the play captured, Charlie and planning the lever have sent him for a trial. They went to the lab Leavenworth like was also capture but went to jail and his wife put up the bail and he became a huge from then on operating under various fake names and he moved around the various places in California. On the run, he started building that bunker in three different sites, but it just didn't workout. Eventually, he moved to a little hamlet in the gold country in Calaveras County in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada. Into a house owned by Cricket's father and it's very rural way at the end of a long, narrow driveway, and he decided that was going to be the final site and he went to work and it took him six months to finally build that concrete block bunker and with a secret.
But cited covered by a hidden shells. Rick conceal the door and it was a cell phone sex lives. So that property unwieldy they'll. He actually his his fantasy came to fruition to have a bunker And then, when Charlie got out of Leavenworth prison, he rejoined lake and that's when the murders began. Ok, no Leonard Lake had kept a written diary for many years outlining his ghoulish fantasies, while all the net this area construction was being done on the property in preparation for the secret dungeon Leonard Lake, in preparation for the secret dungeon recorded a video diary outlining the progress of the construction, but also stating his philosophy in life, and I quote this- paper which you are hearing now he's going to be lead in of the various phases of
instruction of a building which, hopefully, will be the first of a series of underground buildings. The main emphasis of the building the whole justification for its expense in its effort will be a hidden portion, a secret room if we can call it that that will houses cell a jail cell, if you the purpose of that cell will be the imprisonment of a young lady who, probably at this moment, is unknown to me whether I do this or not, will remain to be seen. Obviously, never done such a thing before and it may not work. However, I want to say I want to try. I want to try life as I am living. It is boring the challenge of this project, the excitement, the thrill of it will be an exciting. Experience, even if it fails as long as I don't get caught it's very attractive. It's something that I've fantasized daily about will see. I don't think, there's much more to say on the subject: This, hopefully, will be a mystery. I can hardly wait
What was Leonard Lakes basic philosophy regarding women, which he included in the same incredible video diary just very simple Dan, that women should be used. His web, when one of them should be put back on it, or in that little secret cell, when he didn't want them, and he had. They know value on their lives at all to em. They were nothing but something to be you that tape you have just described made himself, he said I want a tripod and sat in a brown chair in the Wilseyville property and tape that, in February of nineteen eighty three, we would like to call the the late philosophy tat incredible now. You say that construction took about six months and now to that Charles reunited with Leonard Lake. How long is it before they begin to abduct
someone and how long till they kill and who is their first victim Actually, I've tried to join it before the construction with very few because he actually others their photographic, Charlie, helping Bilbil bucker. Where's, sometimes not not well on actual spending it, but we need to back up again because, like first victim murder, victim incredibly was probably his own younger brother at night, December, one thousand nine hundred and eighty two Donald Lake who was from what I know it's an old fashioned term retarded. He had some mental disabilities an lake. His whole life was very denigrating tored. His younger brother, who is six years younger and criticizing for being collecting social Security, Billy Payment, saying that you would you say, baggage on society that you didn't deserve live
one time he shows up in San Francisco where his brother was living with his relatives and said. Oh, I haven't a job or Donald up. Nor with me, he left the like of which we're seeing again, but lake suddenly suddenly showed up in various places around the state, using the name, Donald at Lake, Anne and collecting their social security disability check. That was probably his first murder victim with his own younger brother. His second murder victim was probably the best man his wedding, a man named Charles, are are a very heavyset fellow who had known like for many years, had been a friend but Gunnar was also collecting disability payments. He disappeared and may one thousand nine hundred and eighty three and lake was suddenly using his name everywhere. He went. So those those murders preceded anything crowding was bought them also while like
who is living in Haight Ashbury in San Francisco selling drugs for a living. Several other people, young man named Randy, Jacobson, musician, libraries, rock and a young woman of coral. All banning there remained were later found up and they will just peace. Their bones were found up and the will to build property. So the first victim that letter that Charles English Bob was a family of three Harvey Dabs, his wife and their little little infant son who live in San Francisco, Owned some very exotic, I should say, advanced video equipment in nineteen. Eighty four, everyone didn't have a video camera,
advertising get video clip. My aunt would do special labelling for people like shows up with Charlie and that that that family three suddenly Vanni it. So that was probably the first murder in which Charlie what about now I'd. I spoke at the beginning of the programme about literally controlling Charles Eames fantasy of abducting women and keeping them sex slaves in their in their dungeon in their in their homemade dungeon, but you spoke of a Leonard Lake First victim being his own brother and then his second victim likely most likely being his best. Man is on wedding, Why were these people murdered in the end when the trial is listen? You ve gathered all information. What is. Why is this part of Leonard Lakes Master plan? Why does it fit in with the rest of his his plan to abduct and kidnap and kill
these people that are not women but just happen to be people in his in his circle? People that he's connected with those murders were afraid nothing more than the minor amount of money he could get by collecting their their disability checks and cashing them. That's it! Nothing more is not amazing that it's chilling to think that he was so so rejecting of the value of life that he would kill, his own brother and his best friend just so they could have their small chips. Yes, his desire to for his own his own needs his own physical and and his own needs in sexual fantasy. Just seemed to be parallel
over anything. Anyone else is concerned now who are the first women to be held in the cell, tortured and videotaped? Probably a young woman named Kathy Allen when he was in leaven worth he was in there with a uh another fellow prisoner, another marine make might MIKE Carroll MIKE and Kathy Allen were lovers an in the South San Francisco area. It suddenly one day
Kathy had written a safe way to get a call, what she's working and that someone is saying that the MIKE Nature very badly over Lake Tahoe. She is panicky and he goes out to a car were a man with a ball bearded man is waiting border and that's when her leg under an assumed name, and he takes her. The two will prevail and she is the first one that is film. The army so called Ladys take em standing for Miranda, and you recognise that name from the fowls book. The collect right and that's what he used as a code name from then on to identify his is plan to abduct women in Lady and Kathy Allen is shown on that tape being a stripped and and abused.
Now part of the part of the torture is a psychological torture that Leonard Lake and Charles enacted enacted on their on their victim. Give us a little. We want to get into too much graphic detail, but. But she had of. There was a baby involved in this in this crime. In this story, Kathy Allen and Anmic Cheryl. Can you tell us a little bit about the psychological, the type of psychological torture that two men enacted under victim regarding this baby. Well, just a slight correction. They are. The baby belong to a couple who lived in a house up above the wills. You go home, Brenda O Connor and lobby bond between ten, and they happen to be the next victim? On that same in ladys tape, we see a segment of La Brenda, Oconnor, also being tortured and now she's dashing where's, my baby and they're, making these terrible?
comment about the baby's asleep forever, or rather the baby's again given been given away to couple in France now and he is desperate, the poor woman, it is begging, please you can't take my baby and they're. Just taunting are terribly while there also forefingers drift and being abused? So the only two women who actually videotaped in this whole series of murders were Kathy Ellen and Brenda O'Connor. Ok, now, How many more victims do when you were victims of the they fall under Leonard Liken, drowsing after rent O Connor and Cathy, Alan and Charles
Gunnar and gone away. How many victims are we up at now, after the video tapes of those of those two women at that point? How many people have been murdered by this pair? You know damn no one knows for sure how many victims there were. There were bits of burned. Bones found one that property that represented anywhere from fifteen to perhaps twenty five. Some people have even guess at the forty victims. Eventually, the trial involved charged for murdering twelve, so after Cathy and Cathy Alan and bend Oconnor Anne and brand Oconnor a maiden Lonnie Bonn and that baby that we just mentioned. Lonnie bond Junior.
And then there was another man named Scott stately from Southern California, so there were twelve murders in the eventual charges against NG, because a lake was no longer around by that time. Ok, let's talk about that's what happened at a lumberyard that led to Leonard Lakes arrest and what happened Charles. In that same day, Leonard, there was still working on the finishing up some of his bunker building and he and Charlie went to Shop San Francisco to a lumber yard and hard store to buy something, while Leonard is shopping around for the things he knows, he needs Charlie to to be good idea to steal about thirty pounds of ice, he picks up it tries to Sheila Mature, walked, shirt walks out, but he spotted and the police are called
by the time they arrive. Charlie has put the rise in the trunk debate about stolen car they're using from another victim. Add that truly make a run for it. Leonard comes out to talk to the police The offer to pay, but now I don't know how they look in the car. I may find that some stolen weapons. They also find a document that suggested Leonard Lake, is not who he says he is. He identifies himself as Lonnie Bond who won, as we know now, one of the victims they take Leonard to the police station and he realizes he's in big trouble.
Now all through his whole life Leonard said he would never never go to jail again after he was captured by the ILO and bailed out. He carried a sign. I capital within four men on while these in the South San Francisco, lock up, he begins to confess, tells us that, yes, he's been above and crime city names Charles NG, as his accomplice, and he asked for a glass of water and a piece of paper to write a note. He writes a note to his family pops, the cyanide capsule out in the pub Lee in his collar of shirt drinks it and collapses. He last six days after that, in a hospital on life, support and dies. Now, what did believe fine when they search Lakes bunker and what was carved on
plaque on the wall of the cell when officers first discovered the room well as a result of the the investigation after about the car they find it belongs to a man- who's been missing for several days, Paul Cosner, who is one of the victims in the murder charges, and they realize that they've got something going on very important here. They send investigators and get. The address other would lay up a piece of paper of appeal in the car that showed the address up and will see, though so San Francisco missing persons police go up to serve God. Look at the cabin may began looking around more and more now realized. They found something really interesting. They can't go in the yeah yeah bunker, with a search warrant right, so they contact cricket oil in Belarus.
Cheap recent meet them up there, but she's, not very cooperative, a matter of fact. She goes into the house and sees a calendar and tears some pages out of it. That may implicate her. In this thing, the police, immediately get a search warrant and they go into that bucker and they real they find the secret that door and of the cell, and may I dont think, get engraved on the I don't engraving, but they did find a tight piece of paper with rules on would you like to know what those rules say sure certainly hang on just a second. I need to pick up something. Oh here it is ok.
These are the rules in posted in the bunker for women in their one. I must always be ready to service my master. I must be clean, brushed and made up with my cell need to. I must never speak unless spoken to unless in bed. I must never look my master in the eye, but I must keep my eyes downcast three. I must never show my disrespect either verbally or silent. I must never cross my arms or legs in front of my body or clench. My fist and and less eating must always keep my lips parted, for I must be obedient completely.
And in all things I must obey immediately and without question or a common five. I must always be quiet, we're locked, Mysel, sick, I but remember and obey any additional rules. Told me. I must understand that any disobedience and he paid trouble or annoyance caused by me to my master, will be grounds for money. Those were the rules now police found a series of underground buildings or we want more than one building. Can you describe a little bit about what the police discovered in this home, action at Leonard Lake had done well hypocrisy Separate from the house in the bunker, is outside and is cut into the hillside. The police realized that the perimeter of the place a does not match the toolroom that they see as they opened up's open the front door of it
when I go way back when they discover the secret door and there's a tiny sell America they there with a bunk bed. In a bucket for the use of the toilet and a roll of toilet paper and the rules and that's it. Now, as far as Leonard Lakes, accomplished Charles drowsing, where police, We were able to find him now lumberyard when Lake was arrested cyanide later a trolley ran for at cricket who were later would claim. He had nothing to any. They picked him up and drove by the lumberyard and saw the police talking to too late and realise that their big trouble is dying. So she took him to a bus station took Disraeli to a bus station. He catches a bus to Chicago and processes in the camp,
and is on the run for a while. Now he you say, makes the candidate and in your book you saved me, makes it all the way to Calgary and they speculate that he has some family members that might have assisted him, but nevertheless he ends up getting Hoddan Cavalry. Tell us how he What happened and how did he get finally get caught Cavalry Calgary. He's actually uh? We believe he would probably staying with some relatives for awhile, but at that time, when he was caught, he was camped out in a big park and he was in a department store and when you bought it by the guard shoplifting some food, some candy item soft drink and slipping into his back back. They confront the the guard. Poles are gone, Charlie wrestles with him, and the guard is shot in the hand, and so now it's becomes much more than a shot
in case of a red. Charlie eventually find out of you wanted to the? U S on federal warrant, but they they try him in Canada and simply before and a half years and canadian prison. Now you talk about him being sentenced to four and a half years in it in a prison in Edmonton in the same province, is Calgary for the charges coming from the lumberyard obligation and arrest, and now he was placed in isolation, or we call protect custody, while in Edmonton, where he met a fellow in May who is housing, the adjacent cell name, Maurice Lubbers, they struck up a friendship conversing while outside for their hour exercise and writing notes other. What did in town, the birch? If anything, regarding the murders, told him just about everything, and he illustrated they went cell side by side. But there was enough space under
the South cell door that they could reach underhand, pass voter berkshire or a piece of paper back and forth at birth elaboration request. We learned that Charlie, what pretty good Arden cartoon it entirely began. Drawing on that by eleven paper. Cartoon in so he down told Lubbers about the murder said commanded them things they did, but he drew cartoon obscene disgusting files, horrible pornographic cartoons depicting what they did. One of them show Charlie labeled with sometime in the future. He could see in the future and showed him a jail cell and on that jail cell are posted before drawing up Kathy
o Connor several of the other victims. With with this terrible things, I can say on this programme about what they were doing to them. Now that this liberty, Was had encouraged Charles Charles's to draw a recognise his talent and there was a series of cartoons. One hundred and fifty total total not not incorrect, and he had told him details about. The murder. Did the birch also right down to the data bills of their conversations as well pertaining to the murders yeah, and why was this more recently Berge, even though he's a you know, convicted heinous crimes is. Why ends up adjacent to him in this isolation, sullen in Edmonton prison facing serious time? Why would labourers encourage Charles Ing and then and then provide this information, two authorities? Well, he better began to sing.
He could use it as leverage could see that he could use that as a leverage to get for to get himself a shorter sentence, and so he began talking to authorities. He also professed a If you were wearing was saying that at first he thought he would rather guy cellmate, but it turned out to be such a monster. That libraries felt conscience stricken too, were to tell what he knew about it, and it is probably did help the bird. You bet you got out soon afterward now. How long was this correspondence between these two? These two people, when I go the portion of the four years that forty five years, that Europe in that region. Ok now the canadian Justice officials refused to extradite charleszine because he would likely be sentenced to a death penalty once extradite back to the US. Now. Can you tell us a little bit about the I?
Yes, sir, how the story resonated in the? U S concerning this, this fusel to extradite a convicted and very, very serious high profile murder. Actually, for the whole four one slash two years, that Charlie was in up there there were negotiations going on between the two countries: the USA Inc. We this man back to pay a penalty to come to justice for those those incredible crimes that were committed here and Us Calaveras county. Meanwhile, Canada saying we do not send people back hub for the death penalty, but I guess in Canada there is no death penalty, so they didn't want to comply with that The United States representing said yes, do you really want to become the were murdered.
If, though, so late, and why the death penalty? I think that that carried some persuasion aid. I can't say what the final decision was based upon, but finally and legal hearings. It was decided in Canada that they would indeed extradite drought and back to the. U S, retrial! Ok, now you said it finally Cantor relented, and that was in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one who sent back to California for trial. Now Berlin Bowers Cricket, Leonard Lakes, Ex wife becomes a central figure in the trial. Can you explain that? Why why why did she become a central figure? What, with her role in the trial, tell us a little bit about that? Well, Charley was clearly a broad and a lot of these modern, but there was no forensic evidence connecting them. There was the Ladys pay shouldering its job abusing
two girls, and there was a lot of there were- remains found on the property, but nothing really connected Charles drowsing forensically to these murders. The authorities thought that clearly, blood would be able to cast some light on man, so eventually they made a deal with her. They offered a complete immunity for her testimony in the trial. She gets with complete impunity and what can she? How does she the fly? She testifies against Charles Thing, but what does you have to say about Leonard Lake in the trial that helps uh can help the travelling as well? How was it connection, but between travelling and Leonard Lake and Cricket help to convict having a trial? Happily, it didn't wear Lambert Cable
trial in Orange County. It was moved from calaveras County because the there were so many there are so few people in in that small county up in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada is that it decided he couldn't get a fair trial there. They would all automatically believe he was guilty, so it was moved to Orange County down here in southern California. Clara land was given immunity, he showed up and- and I was sitting at the court on that day and watching as they call her up to the stand. I said, what is your name? She said it. Thank you. That's all! No more questions any excuse, her I hit in his inexplicable. I have no idea what we're thinking. I have no idea why they offered her immunity in the first place. She should have been I believe, but they got nothing from her. They the evidence, presented against browsing.
Lastly, with those cartoons and a lot of other sort of central banks that eventually led the jury to labour now did you talked about that her deal for immunity, in your opinion was was wrong and achieve. I have been charred. Definitely she had something to do with these crimes and and and and very willing participant now, Was there some outrage when the public found, but this deal was there anything resonating in the in the in the in the media from the public talking about it? Was there anything to the story itself? It's as if people thought it was unfair that this and was receiving immunity. Despite her involvement in these crimes, low have a baby, a couple about this, I'm not saying that she is guilty of anything may or may not be a lot of people suspected. She did and I suspected it, but we don't know that
we can only go by what the what was presented in trial and am Mayo newspaper accounts. No, we don't. Where the quail and allows really was involved. Murder or any actual crimes, but it turned out that she said nothing did nothing to actually help drowning. I got the personal about about it. So there was outraged from the public concerning this. Well, I think I know The newspapers had to be very careful to and what they were saying. So I don't know how much the public knew about claroline villas. I tried very, very trying to be cautious in my book about indicting her for anything that she may not be guilty of. Certainly now what was the? How high profile was this trial, and this case? how prominent was it it as it appeared in the media at that time? How biggest story was it
Well, it's a huge story. Yeah in Indiana have to admit my publisher was writing convinced me to do it, because this book is now in his 13th printing and has been a bestseller for nearly ten years and has resulted in my appearing on four television documentaries and a couple of alive talk shows, and it has legs that people are interested in this thing, because it it just it's so mind. Boggling is so staggering. What these two people were were convince themselves with the right thing to do to kill people for their own greedy disgusting perversions now at the trial? Is it really struck me, as probably being the most horrific one? The most horrific a moment's is is the recalling of of the actual video self and the playing of the video at the trial where they were Kathy Allen and Brenda O'Connor
on video tape. Now, how did courtroom attendees, including the fact might react to that videotaping- play that the trial with very, very sad that him believe me. They use that video over and over and over in the nine month. All, but I thought fifty times they definitely What's that would weigh heavily against drowning and then went many. The family members of those victims were at the trial. Cathy Alan sister was there and she was crying Robin Scott Stately, mother and father who had dab, followed the trial they ve gone to? Canada? Listen the hearings up there. They gone the hearings in Calaveras County; they virtually exhausted their fortune. That could follow this all the way through so did Paul Cosner whose car was stolen and that's the one was found. The lumberyard Paul, Cosner sisters, Sherron Solito, followed this trial all the way through
from again from Canada to Calaveras County to Orange County. They were so absolutely determined to see justice done, but I and I sat with his family members and I got no most of em pretty well and I could just feel their pain. It is so sad. Rental was a coworker of Charles hang. That was one of the murdered victims and Cliff's half brother was there and he told me his long tails. What a good boy cliff was that they had been the whole several of the siblings had been put out to foster homes, and some of them were pretty mistreated and Clifford being the oldest sibling would escaped from his to go, tend to his siblings and help them out all he could. It was just heartbreaking to two To feel the pain that these people are going through all through that nine months of trial, now we're cameras allowed in at the trial itself, and there was no television coverage of it.
Still cannot rule out by by borders, but no television, no television. Ok now the eye- and I understand the trial ended up, and this was surprising, ended up being the most expensive trial in american even more than the Oj Simpson trial. What made this case so expensive or two key reasons, Damn one was very lengthy, nine months, the long drawn out and two is Charles NG, here's a here's, a guy who, with a high school education and raise the Hong Kong, an we have a million or more people in prison in the United States. And they there are many who regard themselves a jailhouse lawyers, but believe me, Charles, was Later he learned the law and it was said that he did it while he was then by Leavenworth Anne and the canadian present amusement, he spent just as much time
a lot of money and studying law, and he learned that you could dead. There were so many ways to set up the appeal here But if you fire fire, your lawyers is called Marsden, Beauchamp, California and he learn how to use them and expired lawyers. He had six judges replaced over the period of time and he had his defense attorneys of a three or four sets of them changed. He was just absolute master of manipulating our system here and each time he would successfully launch one of these appeals over objections. It would take time and expense, so he he was a very hardly followed the convicted California. Now you talked about him, delaying the trial and and studying law so that he would be more prepared now, how effective was he and his defense after trial?
You can tell us a little bit about the missing bullets and the I this testimony. That was not not able to be used at the trial in and what that effect was. What was that effect in in terms of the trial at Charles NG. Well, I'm a little puzzled by the missing bullets. I'm not sure that they would they would never. There were no forensic evidence at all that item to any bullets or smoking gun or fingerprint or anything else, attorneys right attorneys. I to just say that lake was the mastermind in this Charlie was nothing
gullible bystander who did went along with it, but did not participate in the murdered that that that was the definitive lawyer you, but they made of a terrible blunder. In my opinion, laid in the trial, Charlie testified and the trial and that unusual to generate majority of time. Border defenders did not testify because the subject in the cross examination which get them in a lot of trouble but trot justified and then in whiling, testifying the assistant defensive, turning a brought up the Khartoum the prosecution and brought them up, and the judge even told us attorney said why you bring these up. You know why, because I I
to bring it up myself before the before the prosecution does, but the prosecution hasn't done it and he asked the attorney asked ing. Did you say that, and he would say all these, these profane things that were were spelled out on these. These cartoon papers that Charlie drew. And did you do this, did you say that did you do that and it made it so it lay clear lady had said those bag, the prosecution and bring it out. But that is at stake and I feel that a great deal of weight and convicted. When you talk about the artwork at the trial, in then examine what was it about? The artwork was the artwork. Did it did a match for rent evidence and what does that? Why the artwork was very important, nominate, get it back. Name's any event, spelled out the happy and showed a picture
later drawn you play of lake and abusing and then identified, or by name- and it did, that was quite a few of the other victims too. So it was very clear that Charlie was present when that those those they abuse and the torture was going on and obviously the killing tube and and so that connected into it in the minds of the jurors, I'm sure- and there were one hundred and fifty of those cartoons. So it's not some minor matter, one hundred and fifty pornographic art depicting torture and murder. Now what I talked about, what the bullets and I dont of labour this point, but what it was that there was an eye witness second roommate added that could not be more positive. We identify childbearing and then was he was, and in those bullets were ended up lost by the police force in San Francisco
Believe me, I know it's going about a man named Donald Letty, say you ve got the separatist go then he was gay Annie. An ad in for that he would serve as give certain services to an end. Leonard Lake showed up at his place, took advantage of our services and then shot dear lady, but that they really did eventually trolleys. Charley was not tried with that particular murder and not back. No, no one would ever tried with that murder. I see server the confusion now. What did the jury finally the side for Charles and while he was sure he was tired with eleven twelve murdered, twelve murder, and now they they found him guilty of eleven about them and said
the one of for Paul Costner- and that was when I mentioned that his sister followed all the way through it and she was partially responsible or was. I should say largely responsible for the investigation being launched in the first place, because when her brother went missing in San Francisco she was extremely persistent in demanding the police stay after it and they eat. She would not relax and let them just shove it aside and she just pushed and pushed and pushed and was instrumental in keeping invest mission going. It was his Honda that was stolen and stolen in his Honda. That was in the lumberyard that ningde positive device in the trunk of when Lake was arrested. So but but the evidence seems to indicate that lake and NG went for a test ride in that car with which was for sale, Paul Cosner put it up for sale, they went to test, write it and then Paul disappears, and they have the car
Johnny would obviously be involved in that one, but for some reason the courageous did not see convincing evidence that the egg and participated in the killing of a partner, so they they they had a hung. Jury on that particular account, but they they got twelve other convention eleven other conditions on what was the he finally eventually sentence to what was his sentence. He said to die in the gas chamber, we gotta get here at that time, but Charlie still up there. This was happening over what had ninety ninety eight. This trial began and trolley is one of the seven hundred the convict on death row in California. We have executed, thirteen centre would risk, we do it in this state and ninety seventy three we're getting way behind
we're not ever going to catch up and cc by the way in this state, a death penalty is automatically reviewed by the Supreme Court automatically field of the California Supreme Court. Charlize hasn't even gone that far, yet in the ten years over ten years and see convicted. Now talking about the death penalty and given the extra delays to the defiling any exorbitant cost to for these numerous appeals. What is your opinion regarding the death penalty, and did this case anyway. Change your mind at all about the death penalty. I'm glad you asked I've been sitting here. Thinking about writing a letter to the local newspapers about the death penalty. Here we are in this state are governor, is is trying to find desperate measures to cut back. We have like more than a twenty billion dollar deficit in this in this state,
and he's trying to find ways like selling a fairgrounds here in Orange County, and yet we continue to pretend that we have a death penalty. An in this state. When you, when a defendant is found, defendant, is found guilty of murder. Then we have a penalty phase which is very expensive, packed on the end of it. And then we have the automatic appeals. And then we have He ll be all that and then we have three trials when the night Circuit Court of Appeals overturns these death penalty cases, which they do with great regularity. We are spending billions of dollars in this state, pretending that we have a death penalty when we're not ever going to catch up. As I say, seven hundred people on death row and it just ain't going, and now we're considering building a new death row at great expense, because this ones getting overcrowded. This guy set up there on death row and there's no great pleasure. It's not a hitch, another country club hotel, but they do have compute
sears in there began and single cells. Where many other prisons there are three or four or five men to a cell death row inmates have a single cell alter themselves and it just it's just outrageous to Maine I'm a proponent of the death penalty, but not the way it's administered in this state. We need to get. I think now, how did writing this book affect you often, given all the books are due written? How did this book affect you? You know what he could to crime writers can to be like a homicide detectives. We were pretty soon. We develop a kind of a thick skin and look at it. This is something to our job, but we do, but I can't help it be emotionally impacted by their Anne. Let me tell you this: there were twelve jurors who might be friended they. I was real
lucky guy at the end of the trial, like you. Never you never even talk, you don't even say hi to a juror during a trial, but afterwards approach one or two of them out in front of the courthouse and ask if they would be considered interview- and I guess my approach work, because I got a call the next day an all twelve of them were willing to give me an exclusive interview, and I became friends with him. I went to the reunions for awhile now. How it affected main is one thing how it affected them is another. Several of them had to go through post, traumatic stress syndrome, treatment after spending nine months, watching the horrors of that. I shall certainly certainly yards incredible story in an incredible impact on everyone. I want thank you very much Don for a very informative program and thank you for green on the program at all, and I just wanted to tell But if you have a website could do you have a website at all? My website address, you know: I've never develop
the website that they could reach me on my email address, which is easily found any time, and I'd be glad to respond to any of that. I get letters in the in the US mail and on my email quite frequently, and I love to respond to my readers. So thanks for that, Whereby thank you so much for allowing a bigger your program. I've enjoyed it well, thank how much I really enjoyed it and have a good night like a damn good. I beg you don't you ve just listen to dine laughter and he's the author of die for me, the terrifying true story of the child being Leonard Lake Torture, murders, that's on a pinnacle books, spider, laughter away s s e t are you can listen to the programme to me, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the
others that have written about them? I will talk to you next time. And now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. He took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, please be the cheetah and learn your animal. Isn't the cheetah, but the far less appealing blobfish come on. To add insult to injury. You could have used those fifteen blood. Fish minutes does which are motorcycle insurance to Geico Geiger. Fifty minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance, and now I thought
from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, please be the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah, but the far less appealing blobfish. Oh, come on. To add insult to injury. You could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.