The Rough Guide to True Crime: Organized Crime, Serial Killers, Expert Psychological Profiles. Cathy's book features Jeffrey Dahmer, mob hitman Richard 'The Iceman' Kuklinski, John Glover 'The Granny Killer' and British Doctor of death Harold Shipman. What differentiates these serial killers from all the others? can these killers be profiled? The Rough Guide to True Crime-everything you wanted to know about true crime and much, much more. THE ROUGH GUIDE TO TRUE CRIME-Cathy Scott
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Good evening. This is your host bands of asking for the programme to murder the emotion Shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them my special guest this evening is an author named Kathy Scott. This is her. The house of roll journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life. Well, crafted welcome to the house of roll six true crime book, the most recent, his on Saint Martin Spress, this one being a penguin. This is called the rough guide to true crime. Organs is crime, serial killers and experts. Psychological profiles uh welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview Kathy Scott. Well, thank you happy to be here. Thank you very much. Let me just give for our audience a little bit of the contents of your book and I will go through some of the really fascinating
not that you have compiled in their rough guide. The true crime, the the first part of the content start with laws money or your life, including Billy, the kid Dillinger pretty boy. Floyd, all part me pardon me: yes outlaws the the money or your life and I'm sorry Billy the kid John Dillon Jer, pretty boy Floyd Babyface. Now then body and quiet and more barker. The next session, his hasten, robberies, arts, diamonds in pearls, cap, burglars and lone wolf. The next section is kidnapped white collar crime, deception. The art of the con next section is homicide unsolved, including Lizzie Borden and Jimmy Hoffa. Next section in that as well under homicide is women who kill, including Betty Broderick, which will be talking about today, a little bit murder in the media, the trials of Oj Simpson and also
so under homicide offspring who kill such as the Menendez Brothers trial. See next section is serial killers, son of including the Son of SAM David Berkowitz, Jerome, Henry Brudos address Jeffrey Dahmer, John Glover, the Granny killer, TED Kaczynski, a Unabomber, richer, the Iceman Cook, Linsky, the Green River killer, Gary Ridgeway, Dr Harold Shipman Doctor of death and the Yorkshire Ripper. She also includes another sex called organised crime, the? U S: Al Capone in the Chicago outfit, John Guardian, Gambino Family, the Lucchese family section is organized crime worldwide and gangs. Yokota triads in circle. Boys also include Pablo Escobar and the Medellin Cartel the russian mafia and street gangs,
LOS Angeles, St Gangs, bloods and crips, and Chris Tattoos of New York West, these black space, then the latin kings, and she includes other section, called dirty, cops and apples. The LAPD beating of Rodney King, the New York City, police department, Mafia cops, Louis Eppolito and Steven you're, a kappa, and she also including last session lesser violations celebrity in a misdemeanours, sanity, blasphemy and free speech, including the Larry Flint story and all so absurd laws and another section called for crimes. So that is an amazing compilation of true crime. My most lengthy book, thus far. It was one hundred and thirty five thousand words. So.
Right now how many? How long did it take you to do this project specifically from beginning to end and how many years did it take? Well, probably about a year I was actually working on another book at the time when my agent at the time came to me and said: Penguin had contacted him and they were like in front author. I think wanted fallen through something and did he have any authors who could pull it out? Another one, another word somebody who could stick to it and get it done, because it was a lengthy book, and so the good thing is. I didn't have to do a book proposal and then I got together with the editor and we went back and forth and he had a proposal and he had my books, you know and that sort of thing and they chose man. It was like giving birth to a baby. I mean it was all of that is
far right now, because I didn t books at the same time so that term that it's a dime really proud of it. I am sweated through the ascent and learned a lot about about some stories I didn't know about. What I try to do. One thing is to is to try to take a different angle with a lot of these stories, so so much has been written about. A lot of the cases know so play what's funny things and it is well. Ok will tell us what what the number one, maybe what your criteria was for picking the stories but specifically, would be included in the book and then give us that term. What was your twist? What was your angle that you approached the writing of this for the presiding of these same, maybe from our stories differently? What was your approach
Well, one thing I always try to do. It is to write about the underdog. That's always you know, even with the two puncture court case, you know because he was murdered in and nobody seems to be solving the crime to me than underdog, and- and so I do you know I do go after. That sort of thing and in on. Oh I'm, trying to think of a case that Bertha cabin is is one murder case, and this is a family in arm in Oklahoma and enter her son. I'm who happened to find her body- and this was an elderly woman- I'm issue Zennor Eightys. It was very, very sad and two teenagers in the neighborhood hoochie, given the odd jobs to announce third thing murder over something like
three dollars and they had a better with a baseball bat. It's really horrible Anne and very very, let always written about that case. I mean it barely was a blip and now on the radar and and- and I found it because I knew somebody who knew the family, and so I went after that to quite a bit to get the old articles and stuff because there wasn't anything available and then I interviewed this an eye jerry Pip anew, who happens to be on a radio guy, and it was a fascinating case. I wanted to do with kind of give Bertha a voice and as one out like a light, so sad- and I just wanted to give her a lot of times. When you write about murder, it's the last time these people are ever going to be written about because not everybody his murdered his famous I'd. I always take it further personally and and try to give them a voice.
Certainly so what do you mean by underdog as well? Is that you're taking low pro while cases are no profile cases and then taking those stories finding out what kind of cannon yeah telling telling people about? And I think that you know I'm really a person for detail. I mean I am working on it a case right now, Barbara Kogan out of New York. Can I just landed some documents from court that are like a Christmas present to me when I get things like that, and- and I just love the details and I pour through them- and you know the documents and to find the details, and- and so that's what I try to do- is kind of tell the reader different things. You know relevant details of course, and something maybe they didn't know before you know. I think that some of these.
I sell a lot of time. For example, I sell a lot of time in New Orleans. You know after Hurricane Katrina, because I was down there for a rescue group and animal rescue group and ended up riding paw prints of Katrina Book about it, which was in depth in our reporting, because I had to follow the animals from beginning to end an and being down there. I know what the New Orleans Police Department is, and I know they're trying trying to clean up and change their image, but you know there. I did cover the New Orleans Police Department in this book too. I have a personal interest in it, so some of it was you know personal, some of it wasn't. You know, and I think people ought to know. You know when you're going to a city that you know like New Orleans, it's not as safe, necessarily as you think it is. But I love that city you know so at the same time, I'm not going to write anything to try to hurt,
but I do write the truth. Sure. Well, that's that's journalism, right, yeah, yeah! Well, let's get journalists. First, so yeah absolutely absolutely, and that's that's evident with the book that you put together here and getting let's get of outlets. Let's start with some of the cases that may be more, but the more interest to our audience and my audiences as that The program is the most shocking killers in true crime, history and an despite, who, having some less violent. I must say in and non serious crime will be better described, non serious crime.
You know the various crime in here. This is serious crime in it. So yeah, absolutely it's it's it's it's! It's all serious crime, but there is some stuff that isn't once in here yeah we tried to balance it with kind of off the wall and that there is some big cases in here. Even Patsis won an then the Barbara. Alright, sorry, the Betty Broderick case is an interesting one. In the women who kill category, she was the one who sort of stood out from the the cases and in that time, in that section, because they really were there either battered wives. Sir, are you know how I mean has been? Then you know she was so slight and lawyer: ok! Well, let's get back about just now little bit. I just want to go back a little bit in the beginning, I'm really fascinated with- and I know that some people to to that true in France or are more courage, history, maybe the 70s or everything from the in cold blood, but we've had the same cycle. Pathic kill
amongst us for many more years than just the last forty or fifty, and you talk specifically about some. These characters. Billy the kid MA, Barker Body incline from the gangsters and some of the outlaws from the old West yeah. Maybe you can tell us about a couple of the people from old West or maybe even one person from the old West. It really the story really resonated with you and you felt it necessary to put true crime compilation, look over one war stories. I think that on their everybody knows, you know your Billy, the kid in John Dillinger and pretty boy boy Floyd, he was a pretty. He was a pretty dark. Who'd have pretty dark character. The thing about these, like body and Clyde in and employed in those guys and in baby, face Nelson. They it. You know it was a different time in America and and you know when
there was. It was fairly easy, apparently to just go in and rob a bank, and these guys were actually they became famous by the news stories. You know that would be written about them. I don't think we had true crime books back then did we per se and they are and they actually there would be people who would give them a home for the night or feed them. Or you know egg them on you know, because it was some Velma cycle in vicariously through them. You no one knew what they were. You know for the most part, pretty big bad guys that you know MA barker in those guys. Are you now is a dysfunctional family now and on an boys in tee. She claimed she didn't know what they were doing. Of course she did that they just move from city to city and her boys raw banks, but I think that said he I think that was an interesting case. The kind of look
get Ma Barker. You know because the boys are in about her sons are in about a lot, but but not necessarily her, and I think the things that have been written about her were you know, then there's nothing glorious about what they did and nothing glamorous about what they did. You know these people could barely eat, sometimes 'cause. They couldn't go anywhere, they couldn't be seen, and I think Bonnie Clyde I mean these guys are all their part of law or by body implied. Do I think that was an interesting, really an interesting case kind of looking at their they're they're, storing what I did was. I went way back to how they met. They met at a friends house, you know, and she was just a teenager and I think that's. I think it's interesting just to kind of go back into the industry and kind of give more than just the standard fare of what you're used to about that those cases always unusual about their their teenage life, that you thought maybe was a precursor some of the crowded later or you thought jeez
unusual that they may have lead a life of key because of their ordinary will say teenage life like it was with the times I mean she was. She was happy in helping a friend, do housework or help the neighbour or whatever, and you know it there wasn't inoperative gives. There was an opportunity for women back than other than to meet a man and marry him, and then she met Clyde in an he was an out for her and she have dealt with him and he was an out for her and she got to leave the life. You know that to issue you know was in and so on. I think and in some cases women how hooked up with men back then just just to get them out of the situation they were in and get him out of the town. They left him, and I think that was the case here and then it, but I think there was a real attraction,
between the two and she didn't quite know who he was. She didn't know he was an outlaw when she hooked up with him. She could have left anytime. She wanted to you know, so she I mean there are those photos of her holding a rifle and smiling and that sort of this issue is a part of it. I mean the women who hook up with these guys say they pretty much know what they're doing. While I was gonna say as yours, you started to say, I thought well, Jesus people, there's always people that are attracted by the dark side and and you throw in romance and good looks. I mean, I think, the media it has always played a big part in this. You say: well, they probably weren't true crime books in those days, probably not per say, but the newspapers were the medium and people, it was well read and they were always sensationalistic and they always looking for interesting workers, and I think the the meat his fascination with this has just been reflective of peoples fast nation with the criminal mind, because it is so deviant and so
out of the ordinary compared to the way we may think and some of it when people are robbing a bag. I can see where some of that there wouldn't be so much distaste for that type of crime as opposed to some of the serial killers and lost torture, killer, baby a person in Alsace whereby you know, I think I think it's the inner people I saved you. No crime has become or violent. It's always been violent. I may, may you know they thought nothing back, then just blind somebody's head off you know and in that way get headlines in the guys were no, they were outlaws on the run and sort of made to be heroes and in a lot of ways, but I think I don't know but it's becoming more violent. I think that we just have more of it because we have more people and we hear about. We have other ways of hearing about it. Now too, I mean,
the internet is, is incredible. How you hear about things you know and then, of course there are the copycat crimes, but well, you know, as a newspaper reported, because I was one for a long time. You know the readers typically will say you know, can't you give us a good news. Well, you know it's not sexy and people. You know people do give the Good NEWS, but oh crime fell people want to read about it. You know I am sometimes I in this book in I write about kind of the dumb things. People did too and I'll never forget a cop, find me early in my career that you know most of the crooks are stupid. That's why they get caught. So you get to write about kind of the bungling burglaries too and the FBI has as a day they get on a little bit because a lot of cities, the bureau's, when there's a bank robbery, the bureau's name them like the others, the bad breath robber in their entirety. In L, a pretty face, though the ponytail robber, they can
names the pink shirt I mean whatever it is. They they give them names and they sort of help. You no kind of help sensationalize a little bit themselves. Fail figure people too, and you talk about the media naming say a bank robber, but there are more so now tat the idea that the FBI wildly about what the FBI, what's a media will also in earlier in the day example name: specific cereal like the Green River killer or the Zodiac. Or whether Zodiac that was his own name. Did he picked it up and carries it through the air and don't you think? That's it, Don't you think that's a certain feature that we didn't always have. I mean Jack the ripper before the turn the century loved in and revelled in his notoriety for the killings that he did. But it is I mean you just did you don't think crime is any more violent, but we, we do have a more recent phenomena since prob
We the seventies to include all of some of the killers that we mentioned and that I wanted to talk about and you've included in your book as well son of SAM. Henry Brudos, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Glover TED Kaczynski, Richard Kuklinski, Gary Ridgway. We have the whole pallet of different types of serial killers insane serial killers psychopathic. Serial killers, all kinda crazy. Aren't they the Kaczynski? That's uh uhm! I mean he's crazy as a loon, you know, and then you look at you look at some of them. That are, I mean Jeffrey Dahmer case I mean I had a hard time even right: now this is just such a dark, dark story. You know the cannibalism and you know Lorraine, Lorraine, young guys into his place in his apartment and some of them teenagers. It was horrible. I mean such a horrible. You know ghastly thing.
While the courts part of his trial, was whether he was insane or not. The courts deemed him sane and he received a penitentiary sentence, but I think that I think a lot of people will look at the types of crimes and say that that's insane Of course, well, you know how I feel about you know how sort of justice was served in that case. You know if it's looked at that I was you know they had him in. You know he was in high security for his own safety right, where they let him they lowered his security and then a bunch of he's got him in the shower, while he's one more reviled Kramer was ever so I owned, or anyone served in that case. If anybody you know wanted wanted worth for him, he certainly got it back.
It is no wonder that the laws are so I mean. I think, though you know, I think justice. Is you sort of get justice by whatever you know the attorneys are? I think that some are better than others then in all its some, I don't know if that's ferry and remain because then thought. If somebody gets off it, it's because he had a better attorney Wouldn't it be much much different situation if you were had the means to afford your lawyers and Anne had done the means, the higher the best lawyers, as opposed to being assigned the lawyer from the stand at all yeah, I think so, and then it depends on the case too, and you know how good it is the thing that they do today as they try so hard to just it everybody out in ill and instead it taken him all the way,
a trial in, and I think that's a really typical thing and I think some people plead guilty and they're not guilty, and we found that you know we found out a lot but and then other cases. You know that the people aren't so not guilty and they're. Not they don't. The funds to do it in their attorneys are overloaded. You know because there are in and they can't keep up with the cases they have. So that's why you would most of em are guilty so well! The thing is it. I think you have a system where you, you have a few states where you are not have a review of the case before say a death penalty sentences carried out. So you have that prospect of you know that letting somebody out, after a review after ten or fifteen years with a deal review or something else, came up in terms of new evidence. But if you do it the death penalty than you have that you always have that problem. Yeah
maybe I'll ask you this question here, like I'm I'm sitting in Canada and I won't go into our canadian politics and our judicial system, which based on the same system, is yours, which is a british system and very to Australia and another jurisdiction. Things in the world. However, there Many changes, and it is most night and day when we look at serious crime in terms of the sentencing of the way things are: proceed in court in terms of conviction, plea bargaining differ apple first degree and second, the great murder, are our care differently. A manslaughter only has one manslaughter designation, there's not degrees of manslaughter rule located very complicated is very complicated weave. We vote against the death penalty many years ago in Canada, so you know I just asked
this question. I asked my first to guess the same question. What is your opinion about the death penalty, the sentence in certain cases? Well, you know, like I just said you know in in the Dahmer case. You know he got a death sentence and it was you know inmates who did it? I'm you know, I'm I'm not. I hate to come out at stance just asking you some pro life. You know what I mean. It's almost the same thing and I'm like to kind of stay neutral. My opinions going that sort of thing, but but but I do like to see justice meted out, I think it's, I think it's kind of an antiquated way to handle a criminal. Yet are you know to kill them yet are prisons? Are full of people were just overloaded with criminals, and we can't you know we can't keep up with. You know, housing now on the way there housed in and in other respects,
ism is awful because they don't get a lot of rehab an you know to prepare them for the outside world. If they go out on Peru. Also, I don't know, I think our justice system in a lot of ways is broken. You know, especially now, with dna tests going back and getting people where DNA was preserved in, and you know, the evidence did not point towards certain people and their their released. You know they get another trial and they released because they weren't guilty. I think that speaks volumes to about our judicial system. Yeah. I think it's. The criminal justice system is a little bit broken. Don't you think? Well, I mean, obviously, the criminal justice system can't be perfect and with at the same time it's in response to you know very, very serious criminals. We wouldn't I mean it's idealistic to talk like this, but there are. There are serious criminals that Cannot be dealt with in any other way, except
observation and even then some of these people are broken every taboo in every boundary of humanity known to man. You look at Manson. I mean he's a case that I mean that's another dark case, but you look at Manson and you know he didn't carry out the murders himself, but he had people. Do it and talked about crazy and I've watched the Parole board meetings of his hearings of his on tv and it's creepy just looking at his eyes- and somebody like that is, I think, they've got him more in general population right now too, and he's uh city have been killed. You know I mean it's uh, you know he's going to stay there till he dies, you know. So I don't know. I don't know it's it's an interesting subject right now you talked about included in your book. A section on women who kill- and you said it would be interesting to talk about this, because this woman does come up for a parole hearing in March of this.
Here. I shall get how they did it early all the little let us get it. If I don't give it don't don't give away, will what thought about it? I think I know the answer here and then this is a story that a lot of people may have seen on american justice. I know I've seen it and it's it's riveted, Because they have, they do have, there was otherwise the trial, and so they do have very good for it of the woman on the stand and will let's get to that. More will talk about that because that's again oldest interesting that I'd forgotten her last name anyway. Some who tell us a little bit, the Betty broader case. Well, daddy was social. I don't know why I lit I'm from San Diego cabin there's I'll, be there hopefully, this year again, I'm living there bet oh, I have a very high end
community and extensive and her husband was an attorney and she helped put him through law school and they had four children and two boys and two older girls sand She remained a housewife house, you know, did everything for him, and then he met he hired a young attorney or young assistant or whatever. She wasn't his law firm and started having an affair with her, and then he dumped on Betty and for eight years when they tried to get a divorce and she on. He worked the court system. You know that his friends and what not she couldn't get a fair attorney. I'm he put very stringent rules on her and you know she says he drove grey,
I don't know if he did or not. You know some people do very well, and you know if there aren't any problems and you throw a problem in and they can no longer function and daddy seems to be one of those people and she early one morning, eight years later she was living in La Jolla. He was giving their sixteen thousand dollars a month, and that was twenty years ago, which wasn't a bad alimony, but that was just tell the divorce television where does it I'd analyzes? He had a clear, shouted lcd. In that very thing he paid for school. The kids went private school. Why a day school and Adam she early in the morning before dawn, went to it had taken her daughters and he had custody of the kids to part of partial custody and he had two of the two of the kids, and
that was our now the house, no matter. How can I want to remind your eyes he did with trash their father? Ok, but the thing is that that you gotta go back a little bit further, there's a little bit of information that may have drove a woman over the edge. One thing is that one thing is he's having a affair with a younger woman and she put him through college. The second thing is that now he's he's in celebrity pages, a society paid at she felt was real important, which you know. Maybe the latter now she's enemy ass. He replaced her, but the thing is, I think, that is fair. To say that may be part of it was that this custody battle with trying to take the children away from her. And maybe that up so go on guide and apply. It was because daddy wanted daddy what it. Let him see the kids, so he went to court. You know or he's come to pick up the kids and they won't be there. She played as many games with him as he played with her. The two of them played sort of a cat and mouse game with each other and at one case she
'cause. He came home late and I think it was when she suspect that he was having an affair and he wasn't home yet, and so she took his very expensive italian shoes in suits and everything put him in a big pile and she had a bonfire with the kids and burned all his clothes. Then for two did crazy stuff. When they were, they were still together an arm and she she made it she made. It is difficult on him as he did on her. I mean he really. He contributed greatly to the dysfunctional buddy of their relationship and the kids on board '
boys. They were younger and one was nine and one was twelve. I think they wanted to live with their dad. You know because mom was acting crazy and she was just I mean she was obsessed and wanted to know every detail of what he was doing, and you know the kids. They were providing her with information and they didn't want to do it anymore. She became a Une obsessed woman. You know she was driven in and and it ended an end is quite ugly. So how can you tell us? How do you know what she did? Was he gonna? Do Her daughter was on the one, was a teenager and the other was, I think, eighteen or nineteen, and she got her arm, got into her purse and got her fathers front door key and into two thousand
in health and Sandy. I got a high and areas well and early in the morning before the sun rose, she got into their house and went upstairs to the bedroom, where Dan, her ex almost Ex husband in and while he was her ex husband at that point, because this was his new wife, so she finally did get the divorce after eight years and she shot them. And she not only shot them while they were sleeping, but Dan Dan was still alive and and reached for the phone and and Betty went in yanked it out of the wall, so he was still moving and still alive and she emptied the gun into both of them, and then she drove fifteen minutes. Twenty minutes to the beach La Jolla sat and watched the ocean for a little bit picked up the phone and called Dan's best friend and said I just shot Dan and Linda. Then she called her daughter, Kim
very calmly sad. I just shot your father right and that was how it went down and then they they use the defense of you know she was driven to kill, but she says she went to the house and she never intended to kill them. She took a gun with her and she did very early in the morning. She said she went to talk to Dan. I mean she. She very quietly went up those stairs and open fire in those. People and it was a you know he will probably never figured she do something like that, but he did make it very, very difficult, honour, Nobby you talk about having the Hence the she was insane at. The time were temporarily insane. It did result Hungary at first. She did have some success with that. Did she testify at the first trial or was it the same travel. She testified at it and give us
a little bit of that. What happened when she did testify and if that did help her hurt her when she testified at the trial, and I believe she testified second trial and she sounded more sand and she did the first time, but but what she did during the first trial as she she would get into this sort of screeching voice and and the assistant district attorney in San Diego was a woman, and I can't remember her name off the top of my head, but she went for first degree, murder, which of course is premeditated and on, and it appears as if it were premeditated. I mean all all evidence points to. I bet she went oh by blow. This is a woman who stuck and stacking couldn't get past things. Obviously you know you she was talking about about. It then, like it had just happen D, the problems with Dan. You know she's interested woman who was not living in the moment and
and so she got up on the stand and just screeched and cried Anne literally sounded crazy and but the way she was treated I mean it came across. I think there were some sympathizers, but she basically just sounded nuts and very self serving, and she didn't seem in the way she treated her children an and drew them about their father. She justified in her own mind by any that I can't imagine those poor children in her all grown now that the having deliver that day after day and at what she concentrated on with their father and so on, but she still has no remorse. She showed nor no remorse on the sand and and easily admitted to doing it gave great description of how she did it and then just you went up stairs and all of a sudden boom. The gun went off like he'd, invite.
Right and the assistant DA tried to get her to admit to you know where you pointed it. You knew what you were doing, that sort of thing. She had a hard time in that first trial, getting Betty to admit to specifics and because it was a first degree case that it was a hung, jury and she did go to a second trial and they went after a second degree, murder, yeah, so a little bit easier to achieve and yeah that's the way they did, especially with her testimony. It's a sad case. It's sad for you know it's sad for Dan and Linda who were killed it sad for the kids who had to endure that for then they lost both their parents. So it's it's a was you know it sad all their aunt re around and Betty seems to just a very, very well in prison like that she's like the den mother, and you know it
he's older and everybody. You know comes to her and comfortable, very comfortable and that environment to their been stories about it, she's interviewed about it and she did go off her pearl and what happened? They deny it yeah. She basically was very calm when she was talking in
that sort of thing, and and in it yeah it said that two lovely people are dead and there were people who love them, but she still, then it show any remorse. She didn't say she was sorry, you want to be paroled, you've got to say, you're, sorry and- and she said you know she seems a little unpredictable like I said, a woman like her needs everything, neat and tidy and something gets thrown out and she can't adapt to him and she couldn't adjust her husband, leaving her lots of men go out on women and the women don't go, kill them, you know an and he did prolong it for so long, but they both contributed to it. You know she wanted, read a certain things? She wanted a lot of money and he didn't want to give it to her, and so it went very, very badly. So you're saying she does well in prison and I think that's why? Because it's you know, she's got rules and regulations. Then she operates very well in that environment.
Well, how old is it? How old is Betty and she still has other prospects of the It yeah she comes up again in fifteen years. I think she's around six thousand one hundred and sixty two and she does come up again, but in fifteen years she got it a sentence of something like thirty two years to life. I believe so it's their option, and you know at the end of the thirty two years which she was you know in her early 40s late 30s. However old she was when it happened, and so um she'll be much much older. You know social probably die in in prison, which will be what seventy five. When she comes up again, so there will be entered on the relief was driver. Let someone like her out. You know, because what they do and and and she does seem to be doing well in prison, sure sure
you talk to. You have a section called the unsolved murders in the homicide section, and you include the story about Jimmy Hoffa for our audience that maybe younger war doesn't know about Jimmy Hoffa, give us a little bit while Jimmy Hoffa, and I know it's a legend, but nobody really seems to have specific. What have you probably was? Was the union leader coded that section real, quick, sorry aimed first team? Thank you and I'll. Also had a relationship with the more mafia you know. Could the mob was all in love with the Teamsters for years in it It is an unsolved murder. In there there are rumors that you know he was in a buried inside a wall of one casinos here when it was built in all that bad? It's it's. You know it's hard to say, mom related cases. Sometimes you know, but he I think if you know it in half his case, there was a lie
of armed. There was a lot of controversy going in and on at the time and an he ticked off a few people in and the word is it was the mafia. The did it, but you know what I mean. My land scan all those guys in the italian mafia, but ah, but but you know no, nobody ever get to it. For sure one of those old Maud stories, you know that you it some, you know it's brother brotherhood and they don't talk about time. You know they don't admit anything. You know, but I do cover a new book where there was a low, oh, how low level criminal hanging out with those guys and with the EU
yet in the mafia, that sort of thing very low level and he claims that he helped kill him and on his death bed. He we talked about it, so you know whether it's true or not, and then he was buried out in under under you know, backyard of a house in that house. You know the FBI to you, the girl went to add and dug up in everything and never did find, never did find a body, but the book was some Charles Ants book. I heard you painted houses its puzzle, you got him off guy and there I want somebody killed. Then you say I heard you painted house, though he yards kind of interesting, and so he he writes about the guy by the name of she hand, and he unclaimed see. You know he was there when he was killed in with mafia. That did it.
But it's true: whenever now and the guy on his death bed told him there so no smell, thou, knowest right now, all the cases it did you cover in this- and I mentioned a bunch of these cases, obviously from organized crime, to the famous serial killers and. Had even the law from the old West, what are you at mention? A couple names eaten path. You mention in the church of a case tell us about these cases. I know we spoke just before the programme. These are the kinds of cases where these are cases specifically that you that are not so well known and our cases that you really found in resting and really fit into this compilation that you put together and felt it necessary to put and there may be cut off the wall. You know cases sit to Chowchilla case. You want me to start with that sure. Go ahead. Ok, the Chowchilla case was out of Central California and it was a group of students out data, go swimming in their drivers, driving down
quiet highway and on, and they see somebody in trouble and they stop or that the guy's Barricading street actually and they stop and think you know some two guys get on get on the bus. Take it over. They drive for a long time with the driver did. Was he paid attention to the distance and the sound where he was going going and they drove for several hours and then they drove the they drove Z, the bus and into school bus into a hole in the ground, and then they buried it and they put mattresses on top of the they put mattresses. On top of the will you mattresses inside for the kids to sleep on and then they put in the note the roof was covered in Durban. They put something on the roof, but I can't remember what it was and then they covered and enduring
and then they put pipes down for the kids could breathe. So what this? After several hours, they left him food and water to, and they are planning I'm doing a ransom. These two guys what they did was they drove did that dug a hole on the property of a construction site that one of the guys Father's don't and they just thought they they go ahead and they get rich time for these kids and that it would all be over in twenty four hours and what the driver did was. He took those mattresses that they gave him inside the bus and he stacked them and any, and he pushed and pushed down the roof and kept me and taking whatever sharp thing you could do, and he busted through name really climbed out and walked and they walked out
they went to a construction worker on the site, who called the police. Everybody knew they were missing, but it it know anyway. Anyway, it was stupid crime and those guys got put away for twenty one. Kids, twenty one, kids, each one count each so the light see the light of day got hurt, nobody got hurt, nobody was killed, it just isn't. Oh, really that they got out of their send in it was the driver really who save them? Casinos, who knows how long they down there and they there paths case is- is some enemies, the Manhattan boy? You is six years old and, for the first time walked from his walk up apartment in Manhattan to the corner,
with his mother looking out the window and he begged her that he wanted to go alone to school and somebody grabbed him an that is the case that they had. It was a kidnap case and a ransom, I believe- and they never it's unsolved. Anne and it's just very, very sad, sad case when you see cases like that, their second Lindbergh baby, almost but the Eaton Patz Case- wasn't, you know, wasn't his famous, but it's just such a sad story, beautiful little boy and the parents who had had to deal with that now. How many of these cases, some of the obviously an incredible amount of research to put this book together aware there came- is that you are already familiar with that. You just simply were able to include from your true crime research the stories that you were
with and what story specifically we're very surprising to you and in doing this researching and putting this book together, which ones we stuck out at you and you never done the research before you weren't so familiar, but were quite interesting to you. Why things there a jewelry heist out of out of Europe was an interesting case because it was so orchestrated the way say they planned it. I have no idea, I mean you know you hear about the jewelry heist in you read a little bit about them, but the the planning that the months and months of planning to go in and and robbed. You know that the jewelry district sand in Europe and for the jewelry district and and go in and actually pull it off and and wear black clothes.
In an area have vans waiting and that sort of thing and wiring and in everything else they have to do it to pull it off is pretty incredible. I didn't know that they were that sophisticated. You know that was one thing I learned in it. A case is very familiar with was the tony blotter on the hole in the Wall Gang case I covered, I Herbie bloodstain. He was on tony splotches. Writing on man and wife thought his book,
how about that, because I am not familiar with I'm from Wherewith mobsters quite a bit, but tell us about this hole in the Wall Gay, whether those that you know it they are. You know Tony flatter, always was hooked up with the italian mob. Here this cargo mob and an ran in and ran the scam. You now add at some casinos and bright and he was sort of being forced out that, but not yet, and so what he did was he formed this hole in the Wall Gang and what they do is they would find out from their more lichens, Where is agents who had watt in their houses and like the LAS Vegas Country Club, which you need to pass to get in there? I've got a friend who lives there and they've got high rises in there. They actually had their own, they rented a place there, and at one time I think Tony's flatter owned a house, so what they would do
Is there a house therein there there the high rises unity, he retired skyscrapers an apartment buildings and they would go in from either the outside door or a hole in the ceiling, ever drop in an end, take tools in whatever the people had and they would find out for major these restaurants. You know when they were coming and going when they a restaurant when they're on their way out, so they could get in and out very quickly, and they did this right and left. It was pretty incredible and they had like you know. Seven burglars or something burglars in and they have a look out guy and a look of guy was was a cop yoga they played added cost is who would listen to the radio traffic
You could tell who was coming if any cops were coming or whatever and they got they got caught in the middle of a middle of a heist and it shut the whole thing down, but they had a jewelry store and and that's why they would fancy everything from and Herbie Blitstein was an incredible sense and he could he could ship to reach a Chicagoan and wherever else and get high numbers for them. You know for whatever they would take and they just fancy everything, and it was his side. Job and and the Chicago bosses told him to knock it off and not do it anymore and he kept doing it and then he was Tony was ending up in the papers a lot you know and he ended up getting killed. You know in a hum the corn field actually with
brother by the mob, which is a non? So those are unsolved, murders as well, but everybody knows what you know, what happened basically and then Herbie went to prison a year after after Tony was killed and and Herbie bloodstain, and when he got out an he was ninety. I don't know ninety three or whatever it was he he started fancying and set up his own fencing outfit. You know and doing insurance fraud and that sort of thing and he hooked up with an italian partner who did him in and Herbie. I was at the scene of his crime and that was about the Kirby was killed in ninety six and weird weird case and that never.
You know. Twenty seven people were convicted in connection with this murder, but nobody was convicted of murder and, in the same time, here's an interesting side thing on it at the same time as that, Oscar Goodman, who was a mob attorney previous mob attorney, and now mayor of LAS Vegas, Oscar Goodman, was running for Office of Marion. He gave a news conference in the middle of this mob trial. He gave a news conference saying that the mob has been out LAS Vegas since early 1980s and there we were in the middle of a mob trial. It was just I guess. If you say it, it makes it true. That's hilarious, yeah. I wrote a story for Reuters about that. But I heard was yet a kind of sad Andean for him. You know if you can think of a sad ending for a guy.
Nice guy. He didn't have any other trade, wasn't a killer for the mob. He was offence and he was doing so. He can it be a made in her wasn't made mobster I so he fan Stan and he gets out of prison if my dog and he gets out of prison and His you know. What's he going to do, he doesn't have any you know. His partners are all gone and he doesn't have anything to do so. He starts up the rackets again and gets himself killed over it 'cause. He started mixing with the wrong people, yeah sure not going into in stories. I know that story well and well looks like we have some technical difficulty here with Cathy, going off line here for a second, we are nearing the end of our programme. Anyway, you were listening to Cathy Scott with them
a guide to true crime, organised crime, serial killers and experts, psychological profiles and that's a penguin book they level just What years ago, I believe I want to tell you about next week's programme. My guess we'll be neck prawn and he is a journalist with the trials are for many many years, and he was one of the few people that was had was a witness to the credible trial of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka in Toronto, and an effort, Those I don't know about Bernardo in Amerika. I should just going to crime library and a scandal but a background on these people. Is one of the most sensational, true crime stories ever. Obviously, some people in America are so familiar with the story, but I think true crime at above definitely are
it's a real barbie and KEN kind of story. A couple that most people would have never thought would be capable of anything like this, which included the rape and killing of their own sister of Carlos sister. And the eventual plea bargain there was given The canadian government negotiated by her lawyers. The canadian judicial system gave her a plea bargain which ended up her. Are we going to be able to be out in eight years and then only she was released in twelve years to a lot of outrage and protests from the public eye, considering that that her crimes we're not really known when the deal was struck. There is an issue of a video tapes of torture and rape of certain victims that was discovered not by the police.
Search but actually by Paul Bernardo lawyer, and that tape depicting Carla's Contra fusion and participation in these heinous crimes, including her own sister, was withheld from the committee judicial system, and hence the deal was done before. Full disclosure of information was chi, so it's a very, very interesting case. Don't let me get you with the impression? This is a real dry case and it's all about the law and be very complicated. It is a fascinating case for all kinds of twists and turns from the somewhat bundling police today. Ego of separate police forces. This is the stuff the fiction is made. Accept fiction is never this horrifying by any means. Nick Braun was privy to information. That was that no one else had
there is really only three or four books on the subject, and Nick problems is one of the best. It's called lethal urge Paul, Bernardo and Karla Homolka. In the following weeks, we have Catherine Casey and she's going to be talking about her book descent into Hell. We're going to be a privilege to have such prestigious guests as Phillip, Carlo, who did the night stalker an also a book about Richard the ICE macro Polanski. Really looking for to interview with him. We have fine journalist named Stevie Cameron, who was the journalistic covered, the robber picked and trials in Vancouver.
This is another incredible crime, another true crime, historical footnote, the Robert Picton murders, incredible trial. That still is in the appeal process. Stevie Cameron has given us a wonderful book. Called the picked and files, and so we're gonna have her on the show in the following week. Sue Russell. That's done lethal, intend about the woman famous serial killer woman in the? U S, ailing Who knows we are going to have. A number of yes they're gonna, be talking about their incredible crimes, everything that there will be coming up in the near future. I will keep you posted view listening to the program, true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the office that have written about them join me every Wednesday at eight p, pm M central standard time for this program
anytime, on demand in archives. Thank you very much for listening. I will talk to you next time. Goodnight. With the capital one Quicksilver COD, you earn unlimited one point: five percent cast back on every purchase. Every way, it's easy! That's just the way. I like that's that's big quicksilver card from capital, one! What's in your one, that's one! Thank you. I say. The house of roll journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life well, crafted welcome to the House of Rome.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.