On May 31, 1985, two days before her high school graduation, Shari Smith was abducted from the driveway of her family home in South Carolina. Based on the crime scene and the abductor’s repeated and taunting calls to the family, law enforcement quickly realized they were dealing with a sophisticated and highly dangerous criminal. A letter arrived the next day entitled “Last Will & Testament,” in which Shari, knowing she was to be murdered, wrote bravely and achingly of her love for her parents, siblings, and boyfriend, saying that while they would miss her, she knew they would persevere through their faith. The abduction rocked her quiet town, triggering a massive manhunt and bringing in the FBI, which enlisted profiler John Douglas. A few days later, a phone call told the family where they could find Shari’s body.Then nine-year-old Debra May Helmick was kidnapped from her yard, confirming the harsh realization that Smith’s murder was no random act. A serial killer was evolving, and the only way to stop him would be to use the study of criminal behavior to anticipate his next move before he could kill again. Douglas devised a risky and emotionally fraught strategy to use Shari’s lookalike older sister Dawn as bait to draw out the unknown subject. Dawn and her parents courageously agreed.One of the most haunting investigations of Douglas’s storied career, this case details how the eerily accurate profile he created—alongside his carefully crafted and stage-managed manipulation of the killer’s psychology—combined with dedicated police work and cutting-edge forensic science to end a reign of criminal terror. As Shari’s family took incredible personal risks to lure her killer from the shadows, Douglas and the FBI pushed criminal profiling to its limits, culminating in one of his most dramatic and effective confrontations with a sadistic and remorseless killer. WHEN A KILLER CALLS: A Haunting Story of Murder, Criminal Profiling, and Justice in a Small Town-John Douglas
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder. The motion
killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them, Gacy, Bundy,
The night stalker Deasey Kay
every week, another fascinating author talkin about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski good evening on May 31st, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five two days before her high school graduation
was abducted from the driveway of her family home in South Carolina based on the crime scene. In the abductors, repeated and taunting calls to the family law.
horsemen quickly realized. They were dealing with a sophisticated and highly dangerous criminal. A letter arrived the next day entitled last will in testament and we
sherry knowing she was to be murdered, rope bravely in it,
leave her love for her parents, siblings and boyfriend thing that while they would miss her, she knew they were persevere through their face. The abduction rocked her quiet town, triggering a massive man hunt and bringing in the FBI which enlisted profiles John Douglas,
A few days later, a phone call told the family where they could find sherry's body. Then nine year old, Deborah may helmet was kidnapped from her yard.
roaming. The harsh realisation that Smith murder
no random act. A serial killer was evolving and the only way to stop him would be to use the study of criminal behaviour to anticipate his next move before he could kill again Douglas devised a risk
An emotional fraught strategy. Do you share, is look alike, older sister dawn as bait to draw out the unknown subject dawn and her parents courageously agreed one of the most haunting investigations of Douglas s story career.
This case details how the eerily accurate profile he created alongside his carefully crafted in stage managed manipulation of the killer. Psychology combined with dedicated police work- and
AIR France Science to end the reign of criminal terror, as Sherry's family took incredible personal risks to lure her killer from the Shadows Douglas and the FBI pushed criminal.
Falling to its limits, culminating in one of the most dramatic and effective confrontations with a sadistic and remorseless killer. The book there were featuring this evening is when a killer calls a hunting story of murder, criminal, profiling and justice in a small town with me,
special guest, legendary criminal FBI, criminal broke Weiler and author John Douglas welcome to the programme, and thank you very much for this interview, John Douglas Ella. Welcome to the programme John Douglas. Thank you so maybe even busy. I just saw me reviews amazing. Well, thank you. I have had the privilege of working with people like yourself and has a greater thrill and it's an honor to be able to be able to discuss a book like when a killer calls with you. Let's talk about first, as you do in the book, when a killer calls made thirty first nineteen eighty five and tell us a little bit about.
Sherry Smith and her family, and what she was doing on May twenty first, nineteen, eighty five and eight thirty first nineteen, eighty five sherry face milk was
had a pull party earlier, that a day with her her friends in a boyfriend and I to Friday and on Sunday she's gonna, be graduated from high school
I shall be seeing the national anthem here. A beautiful boy should really music major and in looking back on,
case of their time than we learned that they were before
we can only in a parking lot at the store, probably say goodbye, kissing each.
But little did they know that someone who was watching them, this isn't Lexington softer line is owed, she drives home and she,
two front of her houses, a mailbox, the house, it's back about two hundred yards
from the mailbox. Mr Smith is in the front room as an office. He looks out, he sees she drives up in a little car. Should that and she's usually does that checks the mail so she's sea going too
they'll by Elisabeth attention anymore. He leaves the room because back about five timmins later in any the issues, the car down there but where's his daughter s, daughters, is not. There. Three jumped at his own car drives down to the mailbox d,
the car still turned on her hand? Bag is on the front seat, passenger seat
at bag. Besides your valuable there's medication that she must take, she has a real form of diabetes and if he hasn't got,
and she just would become dehydrated so quickly unless she just drinks early gal
water and time is a set of footprints she's, coming from cooperation of shoes on foot prints from a vehicle to the mailbox, but not came back away from the mailbox and then
smell on the ground in front of the mailbox she's nowhere to be seen, and so this is how it begins to family. Then your context
police, the police right away. They think why you know: maybe she read,
We know that doesn't fit the profile of family services. Nothing here she said she would
a runaway. She has graduating Sundays, be singing in the actual anthem, so sheriff nets, realistic in county shares, department, Creek, the biggest man hunting at that time ever in state of South Carolina, I'm back
the clinical and the time, is we're not a unit yet programme manager. I have about six agents assign to NATO, to train them and in criminal profiling, and I got these ages in eighty three. Eighty four and most came in
eighty four and begin eighty. Eighty five after I nearly died on the Green River murder case, those red mine, I know I'd collapsed, suddenly Annette case had borrowed supper.
immune system is system and shot died. Nearly died gave him paralyzed and article three rehab. For months and months,
but my life tour I thought. Maybe I can support the death, do have what it takes anymore across the doctor says as your play to bear.
made at his brains were fry to Chris by such a veto,
the common but anyway so we get to call it. So we,
provide a preliminary analysis on the on the case, not right away. It's gonna be a couple
If I could in a day or so, went because now the the offender
I had a case like this in my career, where the offender is calling the family is using.
I'm tired of electronic device. We thought you were to change his boys Conan your end in pitch, and he is telling the family that you had a sherry and done here, we're like together with one God and giving them hope that their daughter is alive. We or what is the motivation is it ran
now is not asking for money is deserved. Its sexual notification, yes, is probably gonna, be sexual motivation and involved here, but why does the sender feel compelled to call the family open, thought up and come and taught them believing that their daughter still alive, and so he's got that point in time the undue sheriff will come up to call
I'd, go with crime scene. What happened next he'll, give very detailed directions were
bodies found couple days later, and you can tell from procedure from the tape audiotape Intel back when he speaks he's very, very obsessive, compulsive and we're talking to the family. If he's interrupted, it just has to backtrack achieved as a kid who he loses, train of thought, and so, but now he gives his directions. The fine, the body of Sherry Space Smith, is say that she's dead. You just says that would impact was plural. That will be there. You'll find telling us what we will be there and he's telling the the other sister, this dawn the directions and, together such detail directions.
And reinforce the research we are conducting. Offenders will go back to the crime scene at the victims. Are aren't, found right right away for various reasons, some two symbolically role in the dirt and we live in fantasize about the crime. I TED Bundy did in many many others but details what he had to go back to come up with specific details. So it's when now it's her body is going to be found and was still
wait a minute: we're not dispatch down there yet because any given time
and then we were working at that time had atomic me.
organ eighty, a couple hundred cases at that time. When I reply from the bureau
We were doing one thousand cases a year and these cases just stay out.
Until new leaves are developed so there now, but the death of sherry, say Smith. The undue sheriff comes up. What's an advantageous
The first is that the undue sheriff and the sheriff both attended. The F B, I canopies National Academy, coarse and if it's eleven, we course that they take.
Police, and they come from all over the world. For this eleven we programme is very procedures. It varies courses for forensic size, firearms to management courses and behavioral science and was in that behavioral science class. If each of them took it with a learned about this new investigative tool recalling criminal profiling- and so is because
You'd love costs when they take their course cities case. They think I will never have anything. We need this. We'll have crimes like that, what they did, and so he comes up and a very open and which will make it very easy for us to work with the police because sometimes invited on cases, and it doesn't
so I mean they wanted you there, because it is the pressure. May be put on them by the media, general public or maybe sometimes,
Some of the candidates have behind National academy. Want you there, but you too, happy working with other detectors. Don't want you snooping around on their case and Jesse audience NOS two dead. We get involved.
Cases under domestic police cooperation and in violation of sixty two d as in dark sixty two days and if it's a canadian case will be
international police cooperation and in which you do. What you do here is. If we have something, that's another country doesn't have or local police have something maybe forensically in this case the Indus crime analysis we can get involved in a case will prosecute the case, but we will.
the local police, so the loose Macartney on the sheriff comes up and we listen to tapes, crime, scene, crime, the crime scene Adam. We start drawing up a profile based
what evidence? When information that has developed and these crimes Danner are what we saw, this particular one as it is going to be a white male- showed a degree of criminals sophistication verses using both device electronically to alter his voice. Also, we find we found the body there was, and it was the duct tape residue on the face of it, of the fairy sheriff baseness, sticky substance from the dictate.
You're here had been cut cut. Our opinions do make it more easily to remove the duct tape.
Isn't he wrote? The decade was because he didn't want
delete any evidence that tabled a good one
don't ever use for the latter to develop thing, a prince latent fingerprint, utterly the tape. So we come up with agriculture, the age group, jellies Shelly. When you get a case their eyes. They start often it would violate crime around twenty five, a bracket and based upon the degree in the level of criminals
creation that we will either deduct age or increase Asia with him with how the victim was abducted, clearer, daylight area at or mailbox, probably offenders
some type of weapon to control or gun nice to control. So we had him play somewhere in the late twenties into the early early thirties,
like this. We find a criminal history. We believe you shall start off perpetrating this type of crime, so they would be crimes from
telephone calls, the boy arrested activities to possibly other cases of duck abduction or accounted abduction based upon the device he was using Electronic Lee to alter his voice. We we believe he would have something is blue
I have some comments background in in electrical and electronic some type of background there, those things somewhat like like gun, the call me answered the unknown subject would not necessarily be married. There's someone like this cannot sustain a marriage, so your fine, I don't just married it, ended in and then in divorce.
Someone like this could not really survive in the military. They go in the military like some at that time in the eighties in seventies, eighties,
lotta with some urgency, by any view they joined and for the action they wanted.
shoes they want to shoot. People talk with doubt he
find out later on earth and would join the military. Are you didn't get decide anything worthless, see any action,
joke supposedly accidentally shot himself in a way which got him out of a military. I believe he probably shops are purposely because it will not get anywhere do the things he wanted to do. Also, as we would
We believe, as time went on that if we get a suspect that deal change their appearance after the crime or mean by
could, if their heavy lose weight, cliche
Girl beard have a beard, get rid of the beard, jive, maybe perhaps establishing an alibi. Your answer as well, who also looking
subjects and enable do, as we already know, less he's inject himself into the investigation
like a demonstrator who I interviewed by David Berkowitz.
SAM Interview, like the Zodiac cases case, remains unsolved, so we provided that to him, and then he took it back to electric until the sheriff, and then they went public and they said we want to the FBI. We got, we know who we're looking for we just now. We just have to find him. Would you have to find him? I will not personally get involved in the case where provide unsafe consultation until Sherry's sherry sister,
dawn gets a call. I spoke ASEAN on the other sister now and he tells me you know about this Deborah helmet case. Then she's, like the latter, Deborah Helma case a now euro, and he s
directions. This little nine year old was abducted in front of a trailer Ahern apparel just moved into her. Dad was on that day and she was a dog you about fifty sixty feet from the front of the other trailer
Andrews off with her so he's giving directions. Now, to dawn on where to find where, just like you did with the sheriffs Smith, the specifics of where we can find her body and that's what happened, we wait with costs without daddy found the body now the call consent from the left
police truly to South South Carolina FBI office in Colombia, softer line requesting on site that consultation. So that's when I go to get a relatively new or agent in the unit run, run Walker Solid, gave its relatively new in the EU to go with me.
down to South Carolina, we get out to South Carolina with eight we meet, the sheriff
get on the sheriff. They take us to them all the different locations that any typically, that last case the devil held the case at the problem. That sheriff says is at the killer. Stop calling you stop calling and we need to call an end, is the subject of the UN's answered here knew enough to stay off the phone.
You'd have to stay on the phone fifteen minutes for us to do a traps and trace on the telephone back then, and he would you get off the phone and within minutes are sometimes knowing that would be
out there, and we find our call for pay telephone both. We process that in such a way
the coins and everything looking for any potential Europe taking forensically often, but so I tell us when we tells me stop calling it I'll get him to call you again, because you I'll get him
One thing I want: I want to meet the family another to I want to meet with an investigative reporter, and so what happened? Is I go out to that to the family and Robert Smith? It is kind of late. Lay minister
worsen counselling mace. Even he was a potential suspect at one point with thinking or or someone he came in contact with
prisoners retaliation. Perhaps I am against him, but we quickly to limit
eliminating. That idea so be familiar with the terrible situation of people. There was destroyed, obviously crying here. You come in on its assent and I need everyone in a cyclist like me in trying to help her and
and I said I think we can act and come up with some idea about I'm kind of handed in HOLLAND and I'm not really still or should I suggest this idea and the ideas I say, Mr Smith, is it. I can tell you can probably tell us that this person is on sub. Here is focusing its attention on you, other daughter, now dawn, and I think we gotta get him to talk. I think we can. We can get him to the talk. If I can work with dawn and give us and skills that we use and hostage negotiation ended, he was afraid he said what if he comes a news,
try to kill my daughter. I said this is that this guy's, a coward Missus Smith, he's not the type, is gonna pull up into your your driveway here and everyone will be better protected, and so you,
these two. This and endorse takes me into sherry, say, Psmith Bedroom and where she's a collector of quality is shit, dozens of cloud errors, and I see what kind of thinking in my head, what a guy can. I do here proactively and thinking ahead of the General Memorial service. I take low the collaboration of small about three inches where the type week, if you squeeze the back with shoulders the pause open up and you're going to close, and so back Lala there be using
a memorial service, were I'm gonna have dawn placed at Koala there on a flower, I'm gonna have a podium painted widened and have a picture of dawn in the polio. Why am I doing Dan is? Is that from submitting the interviews I done offenders, they will take souvenirs of trophies. We call him from it from the victims and when they go to, let me go back to the scenes. We go back to the re cemeteries for various reasons. In the case of TED Bundy and some others. I, my colleague interviewed
You have sex with the victims even to advance days of that the composition and others go back to symbolically kind. A role in the direct this nobody, this insignificant nobody knows his becoming infamous serial killer, so they kind of fantasizing in reliving. So here the goal was to get the guy to call, and I worked with investigative reporter to poetically, discuss,
I was gonna, be taken place and what took place at that cemetery and then we're gonna have to go to be monitoring all vehicles, unfortunately from and we have no control over. This should be very, very close to the road within their within a hundred feet and which should be risky on a part of this subject. Up at the police would be taking down licence place and we would later moving ahead for second, we will later now we will catch him. The way we will ultimately cancer. We would came up with his name because we his he did in fact drive by any start and we go
his plate and we would have done criminal checks on always people and were found out that this guy large email address so called criminal history, one of things with your mom. He taught you also have jumped in stamp. It is the with cars where, in the last swollen testament that he made sure I say Smith, rope saying goodbye to
mother, her father her brother, Robert Boyfriend, Richard any fishing. These she's going to be with Jesus now and
I want haven't a closed closed casket, not an open care
so she knew she was gonna die. She knew she was gonna happen to your to her to her body and how someone could write a letter like this. When I talk to Mr Smith, even to this day, I will communicate with each other business
Spain is closure in cases like this rose from a closure and arrest. Bondmaid aspects related, never really
What was happening
the arrests, but let us bring back my daughter, but the only thing he felt somewhat better closure was from that last point has meant new house strong. Her daughter by his daughter was went to write that in knowing your she's going to deal with with God and end that help him psychologically didn't not so much with them the mother and she would die not too many years thereafter.
That so many cases were worth just unbearable, but they go through the patchy Ramsay in Germany, Ramses whose cancer answer return and what may this guy guy now just a serial killer, but a sadistic serial killer was the parting of the family and then, when he talks to the mother held him, and this one call any, and he tells me she asked into my daughter: no, she was going to die. They said yes and it gave her choice and your daughter was given the choices of a gunshot, drug overdose or suffocation. Your daughter, selective
suffocation and that's when he duct tape. He duct tape her head in my god. How good you could you do this to my daughter or please God, forgive us all to give me in the end it any hangs, hangs upon her, and so this guy is. It is not a type of a generally as type a serial killer with work. He goes beyond the killing, the sexual assault to the taunting, the police, tauntingly
boy and giving them false hope and then, through the middle of all this money is calling out. Is he then calls and speaks with dawn? And this is in so many words ways telling her as you can
be protected forever. One day, one month, one year like your next year, you're going to be the next job is important, so important to saw the case. The pressure was
Yeah, I'm believable, meanwhile, at the lab.
The last won't estimate that was that the victim, Sherry Smith, Road, is being processed in the lab. Her hair and fibre
and they are also using a technique where which will will attempt to some which
vice. They put a chemical on the on the paper. They search for invented handwriting, and so we have the last word testament. Maybe there was there were sheets of paper on top of that that also ripped off before made her you're right. The less will your intestine it and so were network outside work with the family police. Everything is about two o clock in the morning, one or two clock in the morning when they contact us anymore. It's motel were saying that the guy great lead on the case and that the leaders is at the lab was able to come up with, where appear to be first, a grocery list on a sheet of paper and was on top of that less one test them
maybe several sheets on top of that last will and testament, as well as a telephone number and telephone number. The area code would take him to Alabama, and the prefix of the number would take him to Huntsville, Alabama, Huntsville Alabama and then all but one digit was missing and
these are just the process of elimination. They came up with a telephone number that would take him back to Lexicon South Carolina to a family notices, Shepherd family and everyone
static. The shepherd fail, the undue sheriff goes out with detectors and knock on the door, believing that the gravy knock on the door of the killer here, but here comes through the door and middle aged man, its prestige and and and his wife
same same age and initially disappointed go inside and they pretty much they dont. This guy doesn't fit the profile here and we find out that dismissed. Shepherdess is electrician and he's been away for six weeks in California and tells us that these, while he was gone at someone how sitting here, it was an employee of minors electrician and his name is Larry Jean Larry, Jane, DOE and victims. They provide him a profile. The F b, I profile,
but we did and his family the husband what they look at each other, and you say that's the scrutiny describing Larry Gmail and then they played a sample of the audio tape capable of the call that he was making and they said. That's him yeah yeah! That's him. Can you see his bedroom? He slipped over here, so they go into the bedroom with those states. Also, he looked for gun and Mister Shepherd left a weapon, a gun and it wasn't in the usual place in the house when they define,
Finally, the weapon was recently discharge. They determine and we felt tat she was probably when sharply with the doktor knife or no organ for their. They remove the mattress and under the is a woman in a any bound up and spread eagles with which was paid on her, and this is an indeterminate, the tutor to mattresses. So now what could happen next, she's unless you and jumped in dance her talk a lot. I tell you how we proceed now to enter the interrogation. If you want the evidence of in the break, I just lost sight, but about the condition of the what what you surmise from going into the bedroom of the Shepherd trailer again give us what you some iced, what you found! Ok in the within the Shepherd House. The Shepherd House was
they would find eight hand gun at Mister Shepherd had which was misplaced, someone removed it was probably bell. Very merry bells were staying there and underneath the between the mattresses was this pornographic magazine.
In a magazine covered with
in a crucifix position end, but bound up in a crucifix in bondage type of type of position, so pretty much they had, they know where they got a guy. Now they got there now whether that he's gonna testified. That's another question, because in South Carolina you have learned that the death penalty and it makes a really difficult to get a confession, atta somebody. Unless you provide some type of face saving scenario, so they get a hall him into it to the police station
But I told the the sheriff they didn't have the cash for scrubs. I said you have to create a task force room, and so it what they had was a trailer out back, that they got in it in the drug deal and they were able to confiscate that from these drug dealers and what we did. We need that trailer
and into his command centre within a couple hours. He do that
and you put on your side,
the major crime task force the office, you? U inside the trail,
where we had files upon files of it appeared that ours is just to show how
The investigation was, with his name,
The only smile, countless victims aims on the file cabinets maps showing with with like tape from
the point works Bell lives due to weather the abduction of the victim took place down back with the shepherds, live all these
these wise everything leading to Bell, and so we did.
And a couple of hours. We could be initially
wild and immunities daggers addicts justly
if you invite gun web server,
but all the interviews you, all you be doing,
enable the worker cases backing clinical. You just be testify in all the time flying around the country to try to pick you pick. Some could best be the right person. You are for
a particular energy will soon be male female asserted age group. Whatever we do feel something like that, we had to bear experience, detectors and who we saw could provide you. Maybe some had to face saving scenario
so basically makes Europe an arrest a bell thoroughly in the morning and he's back living with his with his parents with actual included analysts profile as well, and they may take him a thirty five years of age. Everything said son of the other thing to when I left out is that, with the shepherds family said. Is that will win
taking down pick us up at the airport, and we picked us up at the airport. We hardly can recognize, and why is that? Because he has he lost weight and he grew a beard and he looks so different and end. He was just seemed preoccupied and he was just obsessed about
about these two young girls being murdered. In fact, we are back to our houses. Had newspaper clippers, you should be saved US newspaper clippings to look at these and read about this year. These two cases.
To make the arrest me, and that is where the arrest and they find with you, because he was so obsessive. Compulsive now is part of the analysis
How is stronger. You was that when he went look at his claws, everything was lined up in neat and orderly everything. It is viable,
the same way, I highly maintained rigidly
in a garage tools, would be like a guy guys like here. We would say what out a screwdriver like an paid soldiers
you guys screwdriver those here and hammer, goes there over here and end up. They rested without incident. They taken to the trailer we're not in the trailer or please don't do this, where, with sheriff on the sheriff and end the prosecutor, road, which you call solicitor Danny Myers, is his name that down in South Carolina Snick Day was doktor death. He had suddenly
while guess the murder and death convictions down their capital punishment conditions.
we're waiting, wait awaiting and get it working debriefed an early
getting anywhere and we leave
my party were in it in the other room and everyone else now said the sheriff Room and Solicitor Sheriff medicine. The undershirt no sun without warning door opens up, and here is the the prosecutors solicitor, with the sheriff on the sheriff and besides, subject leveraging down when even the known at what was going on and so Thea,
the solicitor characters, Danny Myers, real southern drop, draw, says Larry Civilities boys. Are these boys affirm the FBI
profile do right down to cheat. They know everything about you end.
The bell look at age is looking at his word,
Adele this was. This is not rehearsed or anything.
They take out, leaving bell behind. They leave him behind and for us to talk about your tune, sizing taker tickets so sit on a couch, and I
sit unlike a coffee table and firm abundant, really violating space young five C4 feet away. Invited away about other agents is back
behind this fanny leaning against the case, and that day, when I get the car,
early in the morning. We want you in the morning about developments. In the case I drew out a pair of light. Colored pairs like White, was white white shirt so which do not make. Perhaps it good things a little clinical and enriches.
Back when I look back on occasion like a clinical like a first responder type aside. So I got him in front of me now. What do I get it? What am I going to do for me to say, so I must tell him I'll talk to tell him about the research sector that I and my colleagues we conducted going.
The prisons around the country, avoiding words like title: the guy murderers in indian rapers, soda just silk, is anything they surrounded the countries different for different crimes, and I talk about myself.
My background would have no one ever interrogation. I just had to try to have a conversation and for let's see how tadeusz, because what he's doing Dan is, is that he's looking passed me he's? Looking he's looking trial he's been even said, one of his telephone calls a fairly. He can't turn himself. Anyone to electrocute may go prison electrocute me. So that's what by what we have said that we cannot there look into that or or the how they're going to be perceived in prison here this guy's, a child killer perpetrating homicide is maybe suspect, does day to listen to this day today to other two other Hamas, either unsolved and softer line where he had close contact with each of these are those of victims. So
I go through all this night. I turn as one of the things I found out will win through these interviews when they said was like almost like two sides of them when he that one side of them did even know the other side. Like the idea of your multiple personally, I wish all tell them. I said
very worried one size does something to the surprise,
but the other may not even have any knowledge of it. They wake up
blood item or something happened, something terrible happen. Sometimes
I provide him spacesaving scenario- is always good
try to get out of this is gonna, try and, in my opinion, it going sanity round and
during that period of time, in our country model personality with Canada involved that allow different job killers, useless, Bianti, the hillsides strangled. He tried to use this as a as defence and many many to fuel rapist track. Try to use your as a defence in the ensuing back then as all the other but nature. I tried it. So we went through this whole process. We it with him,
the ice- and I then said away into when did you start feeling bad about case and the night analyzing did you do when you start feeling bad, and he said what I looked in the police papers and I saw the memorial service and the family
this is an opportunity for this messages. Citadel credit Union has a checking account this built for you for a limited time, get three hundred dollars. When you open a new checking account at Citadel banking, dot com, slash radios, Citadel Credit Union building strengths together federally insured by and see last till you are talking about his claims and what would you could in the conversation you were having with him? He was he was denied, but he was putting him in this third person character to say right, Larry,
Jeanne Bell would do anything like that great gift, and I have an eye we concluded what he said was heavy. He says at the good marriage, even though wouldn't do something like this, but the bad Larry, Jane DOE included that's as far as he would go with that. I would testify to the two that could be any view that I had with him in court and then and then, when I try to do, which was that bring him in front of Missus Smith.
an dawn and right, I did I delight in I told dawn I sit down when you hear his voice. I want you to say it's: U. I recognise your voice, I know it. I know it too, so family contained in the sheriff's office in it we bring him in two due to the family is not Missus Smith, Mr Smith, wasn't there? Mrs Smith killed at an end
he's right right, firm and cannot between him and right from the family, and he starts talking. We just
Did you say your name is Larry Gmail and he starts talking about he's talking. She makes a comment.
Did you. I recognise your voice, you're, the one I spoke to
he went into that the good and the bad leveraging, though it once again, was an easy to me to analyse how the family I couldn't I could. I don't think I could do it in their state, those just so so strong agreement to sit in front of them in front of me.
Like that, like that, and I think a nation in the books were pretty sure I did as of selenium thinking to myself today, search the families.
To make sure that their not armed right before they brought the broad Missus Smith and on it. I'm taking my got so now, my my toes just in case the other. If they didn't they, their armed and your neck for here right before me, I'll, be misguided, be shot and killed by the you by the family, and so so that, as far as he went there and what the other thing you provide people they only does. Your profile is really more like issues cannot be compromised. So many of aspects to an investigation was the prosecutor. Study Myers at all
so yes away, they gonna happen, John as well. What's gonna happen is good, disrupt the very first day. Has he continued good disrupted, hope, an hour and yellow and wise? If, as you know, we can only hope is he he's got act like he's insane, that is, that he's crazy, I'm he got his goose's copy gas that we have so much evidence on him.
And sure enough. First days, dryly comes in scream and yellow ASEAN is, God is Jesus in all this stuff and end up in a trial procedure in relation to their trial. You go watch him if he's just like when he was rightness. Scripta only would talk to the family followed. A script here is taken note, really copious notes storing during the trial and he would be convicted convicted on two counts. The helmet case would be treated separately, so abduction murdered two thousand. He would.
you'd be convicted about. I feel like forty seven minutes, or so the jurors came back. I was really really quick and then only later, all we had to Helma case, who is the same same thing, was a very quick turn around for the jurors. The thing that surprise me is how he died. Adele is that he got the death penalty. You could take some faces choice nowadays, the space and have a capital punishment, lethal injection or the electric chair and EAST selected, the electric chair. I just surprised me this scoured, would pick the electric chair, but until I started thinking about- and I thought no more or less fits because just what he will you commit a crime like this concerning young perpetrating crimes
young people like this. You are low on the totem pole in prison, and I picked this out you're not only going to get it from other inmates, but even a correctional guard,
you crack when you get in there just leave. He just wanted to show
varying how tough he is, and it is a real, tough geyser been adequate
Please take the electric chair said ten years later is executed at a cripple history.
the two involving all kinds of prison for shop, maritime for abduction and yet another specific obscene telephone calls against young children.
He had not been caught using on and on and on
and when I really like about the case and is really the police did a great job and all you do is providing a investigative tool to help them. And that's why way? When I was in the bureau, it was really difficult in the beginning, because the relationship Hoover
Seventy two: I came back to climb going. Seventy seven of the youngest agent at thirty one. Just then just turned thirty two and cops. You know you're in those days the Earl, maybe they swayed looking for credit. Where credit isn't it wasn't, there wasn't doing cases it really the locals dead, and so my goal was accomplished for us
people. We always give credit, even if they were repeated play a bigger role than we did give credit to the police and the work of the work they have done and done.
and they did, they didn't do a great job and in the laboratory and unfortunately it does it all. We all cases always happen that way, but the girl who was a tremendous case but commercially. I had a daughter, ages, Deborah helmet at the time
upsetting you don't like it, so I'm it over all the over. I went through a nineteen eighty,
three and eight eighteen, eighty, four, the stress and nearly dying and our backs
back. In again, I am to have people in a Europe which is great, but it's like any decency
A while to learn that the business takes probably got two years to feel kind of good about it, then maybe five years before you feel real comfortable
in, and the people who didn't do what I do usually by five years. He stuck it burned out anyone out
I can't take it anymore. You want to move on to somewhere else in whom I say my organization, and and it's just that I tell you
emotional torn in those days. Contact with Mr Smith basis, doubtlessly a fund for the daughter, a scholarship funded in music art which use go.
Going into the wood she would go to university. I enter just aegis.
a wonderful man, just just so they say to so strong. Just where I mean you have to giving giving your him and even held a some point to which, before she passed away, the gave him just to get it out.
Brain scan and try to move on with her and with your lives, and then dawn is today she's as spiritual leader she's. She sings gospel and she's made albums, has Billy Edwards churches she's just done public speaking, the wonderful and family,
a beauty pageant shortly after two again ass. She read something else event of Miss out your align ended issues like runner up in the USA pageantry, but just now just really terrific. It is just a break, your heart, those kind of cases,
like you said you, I just never do you like raider contacting police and you're, not gonna and end Berkeley.
But this Raleigh inadequate ties, but this is one step, elevated, greater he easily sadistic mode here too, but this guy does his way is way beyond way beyond that and is never never had a case of any other case. Quite quite he likes. You have cases you from here from counter originally right yet again,
not quivered, often case of their equipment, old man who killed a children s you can kill by ten children and any parting police. He would call me at the FBI
The Canadian drew up an Arab actually paid. They don't know where the victims were ritually ten children and they offered me to deal with them. Given him ten thousand dollars per victim and opportunity,
These are up in arms about her didn't like that, but they never would have found these victims had they not die, but this guy he thought he was Hannibal. Lecter was at all someone was contacted me. They had a minute plexiglas, so like Hannibal Lecter and the only reason he was in place to get ourselves because the other enemies, the girl, comes a yawning
This is because you some bad ass guy. I couldn't believe it. He was colony on a cell phone, the others. It was
who gives a fuck even at that time. This is a name, you see it
chinese, even here in the nineties, he had some type of tv computer
He was trying to tell me that he was a green river, murder and training. Is me why you I'm sick of this waste?
You want out of prison. Anyone like little break
They found him around detectors encounter with bodies,
what a manipulator your he was. He died not just two men too many years ago in prison, the written to him. Yes, it was fascinating about this book. Among so many fastening things is the importance of this correspondence, especially the last will intestine it that this sadistic killer, who love the taught the family and the door ended, and her sister, the police and the community, but he had her right out. This last will intestine it, which, as you write, showed such incredible compete
sure and courage in the last no to her family, trying to make them feel brave and, and then say things like- why don't want to ruin your life and that re respondents like some energy from beyond was the thing that sealed Brutus killer state. Do you write the letter was issued.
It wasn't for that. He knows. I mean, may eventually like through the license plate, but they could have been more time at the very least, be more victims. He was still be taunting dawn cause any ships as attention to dawn, as you know, abandoned
if one month, one day one month, one year to the next, she can't be protected forever and I get it back to him until the last won't tell me I didn t know she's dying and yawned and she talks about having she was closed. Casket close casket.
Because what was going to happen to earn and will end how she would end up and the reasons to dad was told you this guy has criminal investigation or something
now as your crime. He would wait several days three or four days and was really hot when we were down there really hot and human, and by waiting several days like that, before pointing
the bodies and we knew how to go back ass. He gave his these precise directions where we can find the victims
at his desk. He wanted the body city and advanced state of decomposition which they weren't, so we really could
determine whether or not there was a sexual assault or how the victims were how the victims were killed, with dawn the dawn with sherry. We had that recent residue on the face. We could tell a duck. Tapers was used with return and probably suffocation was was the cause of death, but Missus Smith. People with the last won't testament Dan thought that they were
your hopes that she may still be alive ages. Heretics called a fairly saying, I know who you are. I know
family and that's why I can't give myself in a lonely. He gives a description of his car, which was not easy,
he is a red car. The almost got me caught me the other day you all this stuff, you just you just got so caught up in the end, this manipulation and which is it out for you, that's really. There was the downfall of were raider and biggest gets caught up in this victory reaches a point where they still an invincible where they were just so stupid law enforcement. We can't catch, you had greater hell tight, but not reach out, like you did with the investigation, wasn't really close to two nab him at all. It was until it stupid jackass we communicate with police asking the police, as you think you could weaken it. Will you be able to
I submit this to you. Could you trace it back to me he's doing is sending messages a newspaper as we think the policing of oh yeah. We can trace a bachelor nurses without going can't do that so justice to pity, and they pretty much at about the same iq that upright neither
and writer, or this guy Bell when it s not a bright light me
that is not at all and the lucky lucky you up to a point, but that was his downfall was at that way since, as you know, you're the case backwards and forwards, even guess than talking about the case
case. It was sloppy disc and even have to be any kind of a computer was to decipher it right. There was the name of the church church is Christ Baptist Church, something like that and then the president was Dennis. Raider was knew it was the president, so unfortunately, with some cases
We are, we are stymied, stymied a real to keep going. You want them to keep communicating, communicate irrigating because whenever they stop like zone,
back when they start early on going. It's makes it it's. It's difficult. Member bridle notice
listen, but is only actually coming and while the Zodiac is one area police contacted us, because I let her we have heard from the soda long time and they said to get his letter from the year from this odious and what would be to send it back you we also to get the letter we is followed up by telephone calls to get the letter you forget about why it, because the detective work in a case were involved in the case one he touches, wrote the letter,
Why is it tat? You were the case. It hadn't heard anything from the officers to try create, create some new Canada. New kind of lead leads they have
Think David Byrne was writing a letter you having something to end.
you analyze, but a device that was used for the devices used in this case it wasn't developed for the back then, yet on the other work was like analyzing, the the letters like the liquor, indented writing paper to start for the thing a printing wasn't is sufficient.
Data as it is today back back, then, please, all automated analyzing press. Yes, you you talk about it. That did this was a very fortunate combination of following the profile profiling and also the latest forensic science methodologies and and the strategies in you and employ, like you say, were the thing that
led him to do certain things. You prompted him to do certain things via the media and the cooperation with the sheriff, and so you successfully brought this person to justice and thank you very much, John Douglas FIR coming on talking about when a killer calls a hunting story of murder, criminal profiling, justice
in a small town. I wanna. Thank you very much for coming on doing every reasoning I noticed buckle were released February First and Algeria Review available everywhere. Again. Thank you. So much John Douglas FIR coming on to talk about when a killer calls its
lawyer. Thank you and good night. Seven iconic housewives in four different cities in the dark about the case in certain cases supporting the real house, was ultimately episode seeming only on Flickr.
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Transcript generated on 2022-02-09.