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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime, history, room murder, with your host journalist and author Dan good evening in two thousand. Sixteen two thousand seventeen while working for the USA today Networks, Wisconsin investigative team, author, John Ferrick, wrote dozens of articles examining the murder case against Steven Avery, who had already beat one

full conviction only to be charged with the murder of Teresa Hall back in two thousand and five, the key Became the wildly successful netflix, making a murderer documentary in Ray king crew, demolishing the case against Steven Avery Ferric, lays out in exacting detail the post conviction, strategy of Kathleen Zellner the high profile, octane lawyer to free Avery to write this books on their. Perhaps because most successful wrongful conviction attorney gave ferric unique access to the exhaustive bono effort she and her small, suburban Chicago firm dedicated for a man She believes to be a victim of an unscrupulous justice system, Manitowoc county. The book cover featuring seating is wrecking crew, demolishing the case against Steven Avery, with my special guest journalist and author John Ferric welcome back to the pro ma'am. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. John Ferric. Thanks for having me on again down.

Thank you very much, John for this incredible. Congratulations on this book and you've got yourself involved with one of the most fascinating cases in american history. Let's talk about just briefly how you came to be in a position to be able to speak with Kathleen Zellner. We just spoke about this unique. Just tell us how you came to be involved with this. We talked about the investigative team that you were involved with, tell us how you came to be involved with writing wrecking crew. Yeah, making murder came out to people, may remember. It was late December, two thousand and fifteen, and it really took the world by storm I was in a position on that investigative team, where I had a really tenacious hard, nosed editor, Joel, Christopher,

who had something Millie arity with the with the original trial Steven Avery and Brendan Dassie and Joel, was real boulder. I really wanted me to to basically independence Do whatever investigative reporting that I needed to do to really try to investigate some of the key acts of the the case. The truth, the whole book murder case involving out Stephen Avery, especially and- and it was shortly thereafter because, just within a couple weeks so far, making order coming out, then that Kathleen Zellner announced to the media mail to the world for that matter that she was going to take on Steve Avery's case. Coming from Illinois being born in Illinois and coming having a who is a lawyer here in Illinois, I had some familiarity with the name, Kathleen selliner. She had been involved. It made a name for herself around of Chicago Land

champing Justice for people that had been wrongfully convicted and die in. There was one case in particular the come in fact the case, which is not that far from off from where I grew up enough Julie Illinois. That was already familiar familiar to me and my family. So I had some knowledge of who Kathleen Zellner was when pretty much everybody else around the world didn't know who Kathleen Zellner was, except that she had come forward and was going to take out in this case and and this crusade. This quest Steven Avery's behalf yeah and, and so so from that point forward, I really tried to do many stories as I could to try to chronicle file seller. As far as just what you know, what this, what she was exploring with her with her defense work- and it took me several weeks- if not months too-

to eventually you know be able to have a phone interview with her and speak with her and let her know that I was really looking at this case in dependently Dan. And not for my up point of view or but as somebody that really wasn't there, I wasn't in Wisconsin at the actual time of the trees, a whole book murder that tragedy- and so I I didn't cover Stephen Neighbors trial and I think of a and the dances trial, but I also felt that being from the outside, coming into the case of fresh, They gave me an option to look at the case fresh was doing and she's Chicago as well. So she had that same perspective or that the advantage of being an outsider as well looking at it with fresh eyes, you mentioned in the book to something I mean very unusual and very well tell us about Kathleen Zellner's experience,

with a serial killer and what she did, which is so untypical as an attorney, the that was one of her first cases that dealt with the criminal justice system. She had made lots of money and had worked out have her bread and butter with was the medical medical malpractice industry and did really well for herself in that industry but she got involved in at the request of an appoint went from one of those groups that gets funding they. They got her involved in serial killer. Larry, Eyler and and supported, Leri eilers such and she realized that she was into the case. Thank you only been convicted. I believe one murder Sure at that point in time, but with suspected of being in

Volved in many, many more, at least fifteen. More than that, I think it was even higher than that, but but anyway, so she this kind of in that in that climbed quandary, where she's thinking herself who a lot of information lot of evidence that she thought was helpful. You know I am his behalf as far as in the appeal process, but it is here from an ethical standpoint, so you know from, and you know trying to trying to do. The job the right thing. She wanted to try to figure out how to make the best of the situation, and that would be to find a eight to help the police and holds a lot of these cases. I've never been that Tyler learned never been prosecuted for doll beast unsolved murders on the book so to speak and uh.

She eventually, you know convinced him got him to confess to her. He was dying, and she got him to confess to her all these other crimes in great detail too, just to make sure that it was legitimate confession, but she was able to get him to confess all these other crimes and paint in order to help the place and get those cases closed and bring closure to those. Families and I think that's really that's really something else, that's something they they you do. You don't expect in you don't envision a criminal. Defense attorney normally doing but kept in at your normal prototypical criminal defense attorney, but she also had a revelation as a result of that experience, you know- or maybe at Tiffany for that matter, But she realized that she did not want from that point forward to be representing.

People that were so called guilty guilty suspects guilty murderers like Larry Eyler was she knew he was a killer. He was a serial killer. She learned that and- and she decided that she did not want to do- that type of criminal defense work from that point forward in her career right. Now, in this she had also from that points, exonerated became a famous exoneration lawyer at once of all one time, Steve Avery found out about her through his then girlfriend she was. He was She was then contacted by her unsuccessfully. A few years later, Zellner got in contact with the girlfriend and then hence Went to see Steven Avery now involved in this case, and just like you involved in this that say an independent investigation. Tell

some of the things you found out about Teresa Halbach, that nobody knew about at the time and rightfully should have been invested, It and taken into consideration, as you do in the beginning of wrecking crew, it's one of the things that you know Dan and, I think, probably a lot of others that did devoted you know many years. So the lights to investigate true crime, especially homicide detectives know this. One of the proper ways to do an investigation is to start at the beginning, and you do what's known as victimology oftentimes, allergy leaves you in the right direction. As far as our you know how to answer the question of motive and and and why somebody became a victim of a crime and out of the tree so hall, but murder. There really wasn't any of that, regardless of whether or not

people believe Steve, Avery and and or Brendan Dassie were involved in the case. The fact is that there really was no for there was no investigative effort at the time, the crime to really really do a lot of what I would consider. You know how Vesti Gation one hundred and one, and that is study the victim learning, the victims, habits traits, mannerisms and patterns of life. And and so because of that, a lot of all. There were a lot of people that were interested hall, bikes, life and- and she also was involved in what we. Consider a lot of risky behaviors as well. There was a number of individuals that she was involved with romantically there course she got involved in and she wasn't how to say this. But she got involved in the court case

it's involving another couple that were married, that were going through a divorce and she had taken new nude, nude photographs of them at her Header photo studio, and in the middle, this messy divorce, Treasa Hall by got pulled into this case, regarding these photographs and again around the time that she disappeared. Halloween of two thousand and five one of the first things. The the It was, you know, go through her house and and and they recovered recovered. A kappa skated in all these photographs are that, were you know that were in our in our bedroom, the Saudis negative photographs. So if there was to again lot of that information for whatever reason now

ever came up and really was never developed at the time of the of the two thousand and five investigation, and certainly wasn't brought up at the time of Steven Avery's trial. For whatever reason, let's talk about one thing that comes up in the documentary but also comes up in your book, but I think it's important to mention you do this in the investigation that you wanted to find out Particulars of the work that she did, she works for auto trader, but she also did independent work and we talked about you write about in the book that she was branching, into our own business, where she would do nude photography, and so she was doing other. Things other than the auto trader assignments and one of This was called hustle shots This is what hustle shots were an what they entailed.

Be import. Hospital shots were a way to make some extra extra cash so to speak, and it was. It was money that basically, she somebody would flag her down or contact her track her down on her cell phone and then she would use her creative skills. Featuring photos, but it really was anything- and everything I mean. Usually it was related to the photography for trader. But again it was more of a sporadic for the moment kind of on a whim type of assignment Dan and because of that. It really would be hard for her employer, her independent contractor, auto trader, for example, to really kind of know what she was doing on a hour by basis and stuff like that and again she was in

independent contractor. She was not a full time, employee of auto trader so because of that uh she had a lot more liberty and freedom and and again Some of those assignments with yeah the hustle shots sometimes could put in a situation where somebody might proposition her. Some guy might try to hi, sir, to come inside their their cabin either, how, through the trailer you know for for a couple of drinks- and you know- and we kind of know where sometimes all things going so it's like that. So again, it was a lot more risky situation. You know for her to be putting herself in you know in that, in that area- and I know that the fellow that she worked with at the photography.

To do backing Green Bay captures had some reservations and some skepticism. You know about her. You know doing a lot of the solder trader work and you know, certainly that would include some of helpful shops, let's fast forward to Obviously, people know that she was missing as of October, 31st, two thousand and five, but let's go to November. Third, just a few days later in Plymouth County and a gentleman name, Kevin Rahm LAS around and he lived nearby and near Mishicot, so almost us what he sees, what he reports at that time and what he notices regarding that Rav four. Yeah and again, this is something that never came up at all The time of the original trial- and so it clearly foreign and again he had moved away from Wisconsin. I think

You know within a couple years, so he and he really wasn't junk yards far as just a minute was really interested. In that case, it was just something that he learned what he he had always hit, experienced and and realize. Two years later, you know what the card- and that basically was that within you know, within shortly after trace it disappeared. Her friends and family members had got together and, among other things, to try to get the word out. They made posters. There were different posters that were that were distributed, but one of posters had a couple different pictures of Treasa on it and on the bottom, Dan it had a photo her her Toyota, Rav, four hey and and again for the friends

family. We're we're trying to put these in this many locations that made the most sense. As far as people were going to see and insult gas stations and can stories for obvious logical places to stick these at so Rambo just happened to be visiting the Cenex convenience, store gas station later in that week, and he saw this poster and it caught his eye because he, when he saw the up the picture of the vehicle, he realized that this was a vehicle. Yet seen, I would say, stashed, you know kind of parked in an abandoned area, remote area along with two lane state highway, which was pretty much. You know, one of the main thoroughfares is Hwy one hundred and forty seven, kind of out in the rural romantic. County area there and

and so he sees this poster- and you know a lightbulb goes- goes off in his head. And then there's another part of this choice, It's really fascinating. People that are interested that that have familiarity with making a murder in some of the key players. Graham it seemed making a murder. Finally, by this point in time, I'm talking a year after the original making a murder came out. It realized that the face that he saw the depth that he saw once one of the individuals. That was a key person that that that was awhile. The world is in making a murder and it was Andy Colborn, so he. She is unwavering. I'm talk about ram, while that he saw Andy Colbert at that gas say And that day that he saw the,

poster and let him know you know it. It well intentioned in a in a friendly type of tone, but just let him know that the vehicle that there's a poster for here happens to be A mile or so down the road so to speak, and he basically told Colborn you know where this vehicle was an it is, I know now early. This is or the common back in the world Match Walk area around the time that this was going on. It just never came out at the time of the two thousand and five investigation this This apparently, was never really were not any police reports are very few know. It just it just seemed to disappear, even though it was factual and a lot of people had come in the county left out that thought they saw the sub this green or how to take her course of points described. But this this turquoise saw rap for

You write that he saw this. He believes that November third and fourth by the dam so a couple days I know, was over two or three day period: yeah at the same time, there's other information. It is uncovered, of course, by the Zellner investigative team and and while we're on this same still area that everybody will not know what we're aiming for. Basically, there another person named Joshuah Rand it at a gravel pit owner, well tell us more about Joshuah, Rand it and what he says he experienced in tell us how the conditions or circumstances which they, this team found out about this 'cause this not initially know neither.

Say ever dance from it is Josh for Dan to his family. For generations I would say: has his own travel, the gravel sand and gravel pit stop that that are surrounding the basically find the the every day, every's forty acre salvage yard, and which one of the key missions he had made was that that. He he had seen And at Halloween so Monday around the time frame that treats it disappeared, but later afternoon. He thought that he had saw you know some, a fire, something and often the distance back at the Avery Property and and he came forward as part of the investigation to to give an affidavit to explain to her that he felt that he was being

a by the police at the time that he gave his initial story to, to change this story, to give the impression that the fire was really at. You know Steven Averys Ann, and he felt that what he saw was was really probably fire coming out of her burn barrel, and there was probably close through two Steve Avery's Tours trailer property and that's commonly known as the the property it was all so information to that dance hit hit hit had shared with Zellner that that uh, the State Wisconsin Department of Justice investigators had spoken with him and confided in him and basically left him with the impression that the whole bikes vehicle you know with was found or had traveled or within the general vicinity of his property

and an area. That's that's known as soft as cut well again. Some of these are are all revelations that really were not commonly known or common knowledge. At the time. The original case and and one of the key points to is that Josh for that again with one of the first people to speak with the police aff do the route four turned up on the fire back at Shevat Stephen Steven Avery's property yeah and Josh, were they ultimately was never called by the prosecution at the time of the Steve Avery trial, and you see that with a lot of witnesses that for what the reason they had information, important information but they never made it on the witness stand at the time of the trial. Let's talk

but the Dasi brothers there's four Brian Bobby Blaine and Brendan, which was sixteen and convicted. Of course, everyone knows. Let's talk about what Zellner's and obviously, you had sound as well in terms of Bobby Dassie and the computer, and the tell us how she you introduce experts that, of course, the in nation? A two thousand and five it were. If we're to be analyzed, would not, the advantage of today's technology and these experts and utilizing the technology tell us what they found via what message tell us what they found out about Bobbi Stassi! Well, one thing that that that was in no one at the time of the original investigation was there shortly after after. Steve Avery's arrest were talking a couple months later, but but the main computer

alpha of his nephew and the other brothers that was taken into custody by the police Zellner years later see two thousand and sixteen two thousand and seventeen two thousand and eighteen but she's been able to determine that that there was all all types of a really creepy disgusting violent pornography that involved also mutilation and and there was just a lot of this dark. I, with the dark web type of material. Yeah. And this all really pointed to to Bobby DSC. He was the second oldest of of the boys, and he was also the one that that they maintain that that he was pretty much sleeping all day and just happen to wake up right around the exact time frame that treats the hallback rolled and every rd

to take the photographs. How far a Bobby Dassies MA there's red fan that that was being advertise through auto trader. So you had Bobby Dassie, basically be the star witness for the prosecution for Mister Kratz and ultimately taking the stand and telling the the that he saw Teresa Hall walking toward Steven Avery, trailer and maintained that he never saw her again but again You have a lot of these inconsistencies. The computer expert, the seller, was able to bring into case gentleman by the name of Gary Hunt? Who is able to get access to this computer again over the last year or two two thousand seventeen two thousand and eighteen I believes, and using today's modern technology was there.

To determine that there was a number of internet search is that we're taking place and day at the murder and basically Bobby He was the only only person that was home at the time that these internet searches were taking place on the, on the web there. So again, it's just one more key example. As far as whether not badly dash he was being truthful at the time of the crime. There was also another affidavit that that came up, and I'm going off of memory here. Dan correct me. If I'm wrong, but it was either, your brother or with his half brother, but up, but but one of the dance he's came forward and said that Bobby had told him or from the time of the crime that Steven Avery could not have committed the crime that she saw her leave the property and again this something that was never really followed up. Bye.

By Steven Avery, sexual criminal, defense lawyers at the time of the trial, and again this is something else that if they had, put the other day. See ya. I stand that would have under undermined by bds. Testimony yeah would have shown that he he either either just outright lying or you're. Giving up type of statement they questioned and undermine. Did his his credibility there It's not only you go further and I'll. What you write about in the book is that she had hired experts to psychologically analyze. The kind of person would make these kinds of violent internet searches word: searches for dismemberment women, tortured, dismembered bodies I mentioned so

these things that work and were proven to be a trip to his searches in his search is only the the images that they found on there, including files called Holbach and Teresa and DNA, and some questions about that, and also the idea that you said he was searching violent porn all morning, refuting the claim that he was sleeping until two hundred and thirty. Now tell us what Zellner says in terms of the reason. Why Bobby was not question more so, and Hi Brandon was chosen before we can get to the idea of of more evidence against Bobby and also pointing towards Scott Tadych, tell what her idea was. The reason why Bobby was not looked at more clue, mostly and Brendan, was what was the reason

buttons owners estimation I was gonna say I mean along those lines, stay on the I mean. One of the key points was that that that Steven Avery, the investigators had hit pretty much locked in on him from the get go. He was really the only person that was it was seriously being investigated as a suspect. The other thing too, I remember set the giant teetering, and I know this is in the early portions of the book but uh. But basically these investigators should really befriended Bobby and they really wanted him. They were tried, I would say, trying to groom him, to be a star witness, a crucial witness against against his uncle, and so they even make comments to him. You know at various times that they don't think that he's involved, that they can't see you know being accomplice or being involved in the crime.

And so so I think for for, for those reasons you know, Bobbi death with was overlooked. You know as as as a suspect, but well, but it again when you look at some of the experts that Kathleen Zellner is hired. You know, I'm brought into the case. In this field, relations Clt socks yuppies very second and twisted up. You know images that were there were on this computer. You know the belief was that there's this this kind of fits the profile. You know SI think whatever experts agree Mccurry it played out as far as that job me, some type of sexual sadistic type of far no killer, and and and there have been a number of these individuals throughout the

and and again in donors mind, you know Bobby Dft fits that type of profile or persona, and some of our experts agree and believe that believe, that's the case here. The other thing- it is, and I don't know if this was something that you picked up by two dance her match, but the one thing that seller it also real zero. Then that was a barbie death he based. He was trying to trying to insure the police said hey. You know. I just help enough in a look out the window when I saw trees the whole back, you know, but really would I'll send and then I went inside and I took a shower and her vehicle. It was still there and then I I left and went went hunting, but but but but Yes, he was also able to provide very, very detail about the clothes She was wearing at the time of the crime at the time I should

at the time of her disappearance and seller also picked up on that and realize that you know these are things again Yeah killer or prime suspect would seem to pay attention in really zero win out and stuff like that, rather than just somebody that, again naturally, just happened to look out the window for a half a second or two seconds. So again, this side here the Barbie was standing at the window. Note is Eleanor basically solidify her belief that he was stalking her dance, and you know really hit them watching her and observing her over the number of the several times. I at least a half a dozen times that she had been and the on the property and I know there were some time- have been put forth in the post conviction motion buy, sell inner ear I'm suggesting that Bobby with the one that was really you know it

falling in love or you know, was, was really seem to be wrapped up or hung up on yelp obsessing and paying attention to treat the hall. But whenever she would show up at the Avery property to do her regular photographs for auto trader. Absolutely we're going to talk more, but we're going to stop for a break to talk about blue apron, blue transmission mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone. Blue apron achieve this by supporting a more sustainable food system, setting the highest standards for ingredients and building a community of home chefs. You choose chef design recipes, they deliver fresh season recently inspired ingredients. You can cook incredible meals in the littlest twenty minutes.

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exacting detail in your book, wrecking crew, about what she believes happened and how well you're, basically We put ourselves around two hundred and thirty ish, or so ok, Dan, and so it's two hundred and thirty cap Teresa Hollaback shows up to perform a very routine, photo assignment for auto trader that that pretty much wood take her in and out of the property. You know within about five minutes or so, okay, and so again, according to the owners theory and what her investigations and covered Steve Avery goes outside and that's important to stray Avery, Avery's always maintained that that he never that treats a hole like never went inside of his trailer and again just to remind listeners to it was pretty much taboo. You know it was. You know that that the auto trader photographers were not

post to go. Inside of you know, homes in or trailers or apartments of people that so again, we'll assume the line up. As far as you know that that any transaction of money. You know what took place outside. It in the yard, soul, list say that it happened that way that that it retains her. The money she could she got the photos time it down within a couple of minutes or so and again we know, based on you, know, dance. You sold statements that he's watching from the window. You know kind of peering out the window, no matter what okay he's watching this take place and stuff like that. Okay, we have. Re entry so leaving their answer to poll found pulled back up our Avery Road, which again is probably about a quarter mile long. It's a it's a it's a real, it's a longer road

and then you realize until you're out there, but it would probably take her another minute or two to get from where she was taking the photograph to actually getting back to Hwy, one hundred and forty seven. Ok, it's a state Hwy fifty five miles an hour two lane RD there's, usually not that much traffic out there actually believe it or not. It would have hurt, taking a laughed and and basically going up the road about a mile or so, and then you get to an intersection, that's called county highway, Q and And- and while this is going out- and basically the belief is that Bobby Daffy Scott in his own vehicle, his black band, and and and followed her get, you know to out to try to trick chase her down and the blue safest at somewhere again, not that far from the intersection I just described, which is a county q and state highway,

one hundred and forty seven, not that far up the road would be a little half mile tool in road or very, very, very seldom traveled road. It's only about a dozen houses on there and it's woodland sample sites of the road. Very What flat area that's called Kuss Road and the belief is that the Bobby Dassie, perhaps his flag down trees, you, you know smell the time it's around two hundred and forty five, two thirty five ish or so and you know, flagged her down and under the guise of you know, asking her to photograph his vehicle for it's snowing again. As we talked about earlier yeah hustle again, the being familiar with him, you know from. With over property and stuff, like that, if it it's gone down the things that happen, that way that would not have have have set off any panic alarm.

You know, or error, left trees hall back. You know fearing. You know that the end was with here and stuff like that, again Bobby death, who would have been a familiar face to her and she would not have expected anything anything Terra what happened her at this point in time? Ok, so the police- Is that so again, now we're on Custer Road or were basically around Kuss Road and and one reasons why that this very and so I end up day and is set itself forensic experts. You know how to analyze the help of the phones, the phone calls and sellers police is at the very, very last phone call that that came to tree saw the one that took place around two hundred and forty one pm would that that phone? bounced off of all of a cell tower, which is commonly called the Whitelaw our weight loss, real small community, now far from we're talking about. But that tower

is about thirteen to thirteen point one miles away from actual Avery salvage yard property. So again it it wouldn't make sense for the call to be bouncing off of there in less whole book was in the same general area where that, where they call it, you know who had taken place. Okay, the r we have so we basically were putting them now on wrote. The belief is that Bobby, basically suggested or sheet, or she agreed to fill it to scroll right up the road there, because they're they're it really is a huge cul de sac up the road on Custer out there. It's a really wide area. I've spent some time out there in the summer took a lot of photographs and just kind of walked the area from my own experience, but but so that air there, which also can lead to the very back to campus. I would call it it's not really a secret at and secret secret entrance into romance, but it's, but it's a it's a way that top set that up that some of this

sharks and also some of his friends. You know people that go up there. It's it's a back way into the redneck quarry property and it's also a back way into he's, got the at the tiny at three or four different jobs: dear dear hunting, deer akhter trailers out there for people that there were deer hunters of cabbage your camp area. So anyway, the police is set up the whole block with alert out to this area there and you know again she's getting her photography, camera ready, she's, opening the very back of her route, for she opens the door, and the belief is that that's a that many times when Bobby attacked her again she made out of it. If you did the crime, he may not have done this with the intention of of premeditated murder per se that this really was possibly a sexual rape. It was a it was a no violent, violent act so but, and

the way. Nonetheless, as they attacks, she becomes unconscious knocked out incapacitated, and the belief is that this he eventually is later brought back to the out to the property to Bobby death. These garage and it there where she either either was killed or or or some of the you know dismembering. You know, what's going to take place and stuff like that, you talk about a phone call that stepfather newly news Stepfather Scott TAT Itch this is Steve. Referees sisters knew man in her life, Scott Pat. He worked at a. Aluminum, smelting, foundry or aluminum foundry tell us a little bit more about that, but he got a call on October 31st first and

according to what investigators of sounds, is that he left the premise that day tell us more about what the phone call dedicated and also what was concluded from it. Well there was social attaches is a little Still a little shrouded in mystery, so to speak and Dan the right the phone call that he got it I'm going from memory here, but I'm pretty sure there was. There was one that that took place. The following Bakeware somebody called him- and this was the voice that was in kind of a panic mode and stuff like that that was actually, I believe, that's the following week and stuff like that, but but it on the day of the of the actual I'm a of truth to Hobuck Skype, hide it was a no show.

He didn't come to work that day how he was regularly scheduled to work at yeah at the foundry and Different versions were floated around. You know the office I should say office is a blue collar. You know facility, but just a but back at the it back at the foundry, and one person was that that Scott was supposedly going to make a trip, I believe, to green, bay to visit uh to see his mother because she was going to be going through some back surgery. That day, so he's going around an after shortly after the crime it had happened. He just interviewed on a number of occasions by the police and different stories that came up as far as his own whereabouts. That day and and one of the things that that she's, he said, This really unbelievable's unbelievable was that he stuck with the

person that he made a trip to Green Bay to visit his mom any claim that he decided to come back back to 'em what county and yeah to decide to go deer hunting. So again, you know he's supposed to be at work. And close off work and- and he claims that he's going to go deer hunting and he claim set the while. He just happened to be driving back on one hundred and forty seven, which, against the same general area, you know where Hall by you know it is her. Last moments of life for an hour or possibly up taking place. He's connect claim that that that he happens to be driving up in the exact opposite direction. Bobbi dancy! you know Antar and he's going to claim that that they both just happened to pass each other again driving fifty five miles an hour. Not knowing you know the one or do you know that they're getting to see each other, but it and what's really out about this whole, this whole story. I know it's good

can go in a little tangent by saying this. But I want to bring bring it all back to Bobby Dassie too. So is that when Bobby was first interviewed out the case, about his own whereabouts, is behaviors on the last lifesteal life he brought up. He was I brought up the fact that that that he and tie that she had supposedly passed each other on Hwy, one hundred and forty seven One thing I noticed I really picked up on this is that when the investigator investigators, I should say, had asked him about this- you know to have an understanding where this happens and along the clients. I notice that their statement that they put down with it. He said that they should ask Scott adage that Scott Remember

and, in my mind again from you, know from years of doing this. This is this type of work, Dan. That was one thing that I kind of zeroed in and and and really red flag, because this is again. This is just what weren't were talking less than a week after hope, I could disappear when I had it. This is not going back fifteen years earlier saying you know what we do and- and you know, nineteen eighty seven or something like that. This is fresh. This is within you know that prior week, and he can't tell them think he's actually encouraging them and directing them to go out of their way to interview. Had it should which again in my mind your very strong likelihood that these two guys it cooked up a story, yeah and- and basically you know, had everything kind of put together as far as you know, for for each other, because again, if if this really did happen, you know why. Why is Bobby dance struggling to tell them. You know where, where he saw Scott Tyler Chat,

at the time that this is fresh in his mind? Who, at the time that this had really happened? And again, the other thing, just I take my dog for a walk, usually three or four days a week here in Illinois ever since this case. Since that topic, I spent a lot of time studying, there's a there's, a there's, a busy road, not that far from my neighborhood and the speed limits forty miles an hour out here, Dan and and I look out the car, I know a lot of people in this general area in this community yeah and I can't even work- you know, said thinking outside walking the dog the sidewalk, I struggle to see who's inside those vehicles, even every once, while some may be put me away from me- and I can't you know, see who that really is at that point in time. So I just struggle with this whole idea that these two guys really saw each other. You know going in the opposite direction like they did it just really seems to defy logic now. Zellner goes farther than just saying that this is a case of OB

actually ineptitude. Now that this is a a conspiracy involve being certain players, and we don't have time to go through all of those, but people that watch a doctor We know some of the names of Colburn and Lenk, and some people that were around when Avery was first convicted seem to be, as as you writing, a book rewarded for their work in their loyalty and then in in a position again to so their loyalty in terms of scene gathering evidence against Avery. You talked about some of the things she's found, not we spend all day on the things that things that, like the no blood in in in Avery's, trailer, The entire theory of Kratz is process control, theory about how things went down, but let's talk about what Zellner sound and you found in terms of the bullet and in terms of the grass,

never being the desk or never being searched and all so the idea of the what you call a cover up in terms of the road kill in the dash C Cratch tell us a little bit about that. The bullet in the grass author, yeah and again, the that's one of the amazing things too, because if you think about it, the police had control of the the Avery compound, the forty acre property. You know from from Saturday November, fifth of five, through that Saturday November 12th and they had a he spent two previous days before that, actually making trips out to see Steve Avery, you know an interview, ham and then, and then they came back on the on the four start Lincoln from occurred. Ditch they showed up that Private morning, Anne Steve gave them permission to walk inside. So now we're really talking almost ten days and they

also spent a lot of those states going into the other trailers of his brother Chuck also going into the you know the house of far his sister. And her boys, as well so really kind defies logic that they, They were checking some of these out buildings. They were, I know they were doing that on their first Saturday on November fifth, but whatever reason that they they they weren't curious or weren't. Looking around at the at the garage immediately. The garage of of the dance he's just he'll further due diligence and and what was in the garage and they photographed the set up at the very end of the case when they were kind of closing up shop at the at the property. But but there was a dead deer that was hanging from the rafters

so to speak. Actually I shouldn't say: raptors there was, it was hung up, but up, but it was. It was hurting pretty high and uh, but the thing was again that this was another one. That's strange strange events of the case that this wasn't a deer that that Bobby it bagged out in the field. But this was a deer that that he had picked up and the side of the road, and- and you only pick this thing up, the on the fourth. I believe, I'm pretty sure it was on that Friday. The yeah, the So again, now you're talking four or five days, while forty four full days after Treasa Head had been on the proper but by that point in time, Bobby D see and pretty much everybody in Wisconsin for that matter, Dan New, there Teresa Holbach was missing and they also knew that Steve Avery was being looked at as the prime suspect in the case, because

you had to you. It was cast in television personalities and reporters showing up at and Apers property. I believe on the on the forest. And, and there was there was there was an interview that there was done with him, where he's kind of a little, I don't think he's teary eyed. Just cheese he he he makes the same along. The lines of you know that the steering this is gonna happen again to move stuff like that, so everybody in the world that was paying attention to television and night, including if, if if, if, if, if, if there was a first alternate killer here on the would they would know at this point in time that Steve areas being looked at as the prime suspect, but he hasn't been arrested at this point in time. So again, you have all these factors you know going on here, but but again, if you're, so that that that may have been involved in the crime

and- and you know that Steve there is being looked at well. One thing you're going to want to consider doing is to make take the heat up yourself. You don't want to draw any attention, help yourself and again. The about this whole notion that Bobby dashes can you know, go I'll start the engine for is for its vehicles. You know it for his for his band and then and then drive around in and go pick up, find a dead deer carcass that he does no, who hit the dang thing, which also then raises the question: how the how long hair been out on the road and stuff like that, because again, if somebody who hit a deer, two thousand sixteen in Wisconsin and destroyed my van but but again goofy notion that you're going to pick up at a deer from somebody but you don't know who hit it and or how long the things been flying there on the side of the road and then and then bring that thing into your garage and it just

So the whole thing again is is just very, very, very suspicious and stuff like that. But again it would be a perfect Ruth. So to speak, I would say, if you don't know if the police are going to eventually come back to the Avery RD. And eventually start asking questions, you know all of you or your brothers or your mom or her boyfriend and stuff like that, it is free to hold like had been dismembered. You don't, her blood was spattered throughout the garage. What would be a perfect car You know, aside from put a rug on the ground there and again you throw rug on the on the grads. That's gonna look suspicious, but again hang up a dead deer. You know! That's pretty much been now skinned, you know and and taken apart. That's going to that's going to draw some

attention away from me and stuff like that. The police would think that that's normal, because that is normal people do that thousands of people do that. You know it and in a given week. You know at that time that here in November, in Wisconsin, let's talk about the burn pit to Zellner got a forensic fire expert too, with incredible experience. Um tell us what he had said about the possibility of Teresa Halbach being burnt in Avery's burn. And also the idea that found out about locations three locations of bones in a gravel pit near customers. The

the burn pits a interesting one, an I had something Maluti, two from actually having walked out there and the property and taking some close of photographs just in the last year or two with permissions in the family, because I myself wanted to get an understanding. Dan of you know how this could happen in. Was it logical that that you could have you know a bonfire out there that they got this hot and would have you know basically burned up a body under those circumstances again early November late October,

the time that you see in the thirties, you know or forties at night time and stuff like that to sell what begins owners don't I got a couple different experts John to hand with one of them and John, and I know its it's regarded as one of the yeah, the foremost expert, so you know in the United States and and maybe even the world as far as he's actually done numerous examinations, numerous experiments, let's call them dealing with cadavers to what to study cadavers under different heat, different intensities of heat and and the one thing that you normally need to have a body incinerate to the office to the to the heat that that that that that's going to cost the body to break down like that, but also, oh, you We need an enclosed setting,

any and usually are a car or car trunk wore a steel drum Beryl is the logical place that a crime that that that that would take place, and DR and again her ships have studied all the the property study, the the case and and then and then the other thing to this important of stress for for people listening the the Abrams burnt head was was he was really close, his kids, his his garage, Which looks like a ten mile an hour wind? Would you know way back the thing over? It's just it's just a real rickety, looking garage, but it must be sturdy because it's still standing one thousand two hundred thirteen years later, even though it look that bad back then, but but his garage is, is just rickety, but his scratches right on top of this burn pits, and not that far away from from that, damn is actually there's a propane tank. That's not get far away and then right

next to the propane tank is his red trailer. So you have all these four things right next to each other. Generally speaking, the burn pit backyard, the detached red garage, the propane tank in there the red trailer and the notion that that somehow that that that Avery and it was going to throw this this this body into into the burn pit and and have the Bye it destroyed within a three hour period from like eight two hundred and eleven pm or seven to ten, whatever it was John, is is, is one hundred percent sure positive? The crime didn't happen. That way, that's not saying who the killer is, but it's just saying that the next, the factual allegations through the foundation that was made at the time of the trial in two thousand and seven

crime, no matter what did not happen, the way that was portrayed at the two thousand and seven trial and again. This is this, isn't just feel some some armchair quarterback here or somebody on the internet. You know that's that's the time to read it. This is John behind who's, one of the best experts fire experts in in in the country, that's making these conclusions and is willing to sign his name to a foreign affidavit on this topic, Dan along is that they examined the bone apart me, the bullet and found that there was no bone. Tell us what the significance of finding no bone attached to that bullet and what did they find attached to that bullet, which was very interesting explainable. We

you had again sounder, went out and track down another one of the countries best experts, ballistics experts, a gentleman in Arizona, Luke, Luke Hake is his name and and again they did numerous exam fire ballistics expert, ballistics examinations as far as firing bullets through through what was bovine, because, again, It's hard work was shot in the manner that was described as portrayed at the time of the trial, the belief, they're. Always this and would be some type of bone, from the skull that would have even

tiny fragments you know also, but there should be set there. There would be there's a there's, an absolute certainty that that would have been, and I'm one of these bullet fragments, if indeed a bolt fragment, did pass through her skull. Okay and and again they are they do these experiments and then they also analyze the different for Bert was able to analyze the the and that was this plan. Tick, I believe, he's with microtrace, which again is one of the countries. Topped experts dealing with evidence. Just it's unbelievable microscopes there and was able to put these put this bullet under there special specialized microscope and they were able. To determine that there's some type of wood, some type of wood particle dan- that

So that was located on this. This bulletin, I believe, also some type of red paint, but but again the the expert was convinced as well in absence of any type of skull fragment, and look at the finding of these would and or paint chips through. The belief is that again, going back out to the airport property that this bullet or bullet fragments that were were recovered from the garage, probably boo, so they just been fired out there by by a fellow that actually had owned the trailer guy Name Rally Johnson, who had lived in the trailer before see, bravery got out of prison in two thousand and three, but rally was notorious, I should say notorious, but it was just kind of of firing. His firing. His his guns at just different

Manson, rabbits and squirrels, and just other you know animals that were running around out there and stuff like that. So it wasn't and it was not uncommon for the Avery's to be firing. You know it should judge. You know different animals and stuff like that in the belief is that is that one of these bullets that was that was just lie just inside of the the right garage, the garage said eventually Steven Avery inherited when he got out of prison, moved into the red trailer place, is basically just plucked. One of these bullets added h and then declare that that bullet was was going to be one of the bullets that that somehow it was used to murder tissue Teresa and and it's one of those other unbelievable. I think forensic, herculean feats that seller in her her experts have been able to really illustrate you know for the court to kind of again take apart

just some of these key pieces of evidence that that you know one thousand and twelve years ago. Nobody was even really given serious consideration to the possibility that these were phony or you know gender pieces of evidence in yes, she cites a bunch in her. Conviction, appeal, post conviction, appeal October. Third, two thousand and seventeen in front of Judge Sutkiewicz. She outlined a bunch Brady Violations, number one. Was a cd of of a couple names zippers that we didn't mention, but at least noting that Teresa a was headed to another appointment and that the averys word, Stephen Steven, Avery or the Avery's were not the last appointment that was suppressed and now that that CD is gone. The second thing was very interesting- was Teresa's fuel tank. The concern

function was never analyzed and she says that would be, and that's 'cause they didn't want to have any disprove anything proven in terms of. The mileage and what it revealed in terms of Where she might have went in that vehicle and it wasn't supporting their theory, the also. She also talked about the highly questionable fly over that was conducted November. Third, that did not find the vehicle and she had assertions in contentions. Regarding that as an intentional, this in that fly over and then then the for the the affidavit from the quarry owner that we mentioned that he talked about that, he said the district? The department of Justice had told them that the rap was driven through that that property from the Red property itself.

Tell us what Judge Solecki what were her decision was October, third, two thousand and seventeen, and why quality say it is really not a whole lot to say, because she really didn't give much detail thanks, I'm going off of memory here down, but I think that her total rule It was only about six pages, seven pages taps, and so the long and short of it is just that she didn't. She didn't agree with the owners petition or arguments, and that that she didn't find anything that that convinced her. Otherwise, as far as that, these were that these four pieces of evidence that the prosecution had intentionally withheld from Original trial lawyers Jerry, Jerry, beating and him being strange, and it just like, I said, for

for a case where is elder had originally filed, you know about one thousand two hundred pages of filings asking for to do scientific testing different items of evidence back in August, two thousand and sixteen to her eventual filings in twenty seventeen, in a where she got into more detail about you know about the is Brady violations that she'd uncovered the the appeal and it was rendered by by suck what's with, was just really. No shallow- and it really didn't offer much detail as far as why she came up with these conclusions. Socks and you compare that to the you know the for little judge, the one that originally had ordered Bobby sorry, Brendan Dassie out of prison.

In August of twenty sixteen, and that Judge Johnson's and what's what's around ninety ninety ninety or some ninety ninety pages ourselves. So this up again, just regardless of you, know what you believe about the case so suck with his opinion. In my opinion, just basically sent the message that this is something that really didn't wiping it do. With this case, you really want to kind of roll up roll up our sleeves and really analyze the evidence even help our hero status case. What we're saying this case Dan and stuff like that The effects- and I know this is a very small detail, but I put it in the book just to stress. You know how she really wasn't in touch with this case, but she actually in a written ruling that again with a legal opinion, you would think that she would get the names of people right in the case, an

give opinions she makes a reference to Steven Avery's nephew, the one that's convicted in this case, the one that you know who's. Fiction I have been overturned by a federal judge in she refers to him as Brandon, be our a and d o and which, again as it like getting started, calling me yeah gel or something like that TIM and I'm John. So it's just a again it just that sent me a message that that, if she's, if she's, that lazy or sloppy you know about that, not even you know knowing the proper names you know, which is being punctual when she's actually writing this down and then looking over her work before she. You know a file so thing with the court for the whole world and all the lawyers to read that that she's also somebody that was just kind of a fly by that really probably doesn't know. The key Make some really hasn't dissected the case and that's just the service for the state of Wisconsin an for everybody. It's interest

justice, regardless of whether or not you know who, who you believe are the killers you know or not and stuff like that. This is just something that really was up just phoning it in on this case, and it's just it's just pathetic. If they ask me so, despite that, you said that the only way positive and upbeat tell us what she is sure do, John and one Would she be upbeat tell us about that. Well, I mean one thing is that she still I mean it's were probably having this conversation right now for our listeners, I'm sure she's, probably back, of either at our office or at home, or I mean she's constantly thinking about this case. Since you still doing analysis. She still working on this case. You know, as we speak so so in fact, actually sound

he usually has a lot more success and the appellate level, then she does back at the at the circuit court. The district court level stuff like that because of the simple reason, is that a lot of these judges on the lower level- you know don't want to become involved, you know or don't want to ruffle feathers or just really to start and looking at the case properly, so Zellner oftentimes. What's the best success at the APOLLO level. When there's, I would say you know the cream rises to that so often times times the state, the appellate judges or the Supreme Court judges say a different state, they're a lot more experienced, and and really are in a more. Shall we say neutral

and where third not going to be worried about local politics or you know, bumping into the prosecutor or different people to sheriff's deputies. You know at the local grocery store Walmart likes to suck. What's might be so again, sellers have had a lot more success on these appeals. You at the appellate level- and I just think that it's just the things that she's she's, based in the latter on experience that she's been there before and and she believes I know she know she believes the stand. Then, if she can convince a court. Grants for an opportunity to put on evidence. You know not even to the point of a new trial, but just letting her put on it's called an evidentiary hearing

it that she believes that that she'll be successful at that level and that that'll, ultimately, because the prosecution's case against Stephen Avery now to collapse, to the point where the prosecution will not want to even re try the case. If you know if she is successful Plot evidentiary hearing a neutralised granted so and she's just a very tenacious individual that she she she she she becomes even more success full through some of the defeats and losses that she she's had. Over the years and stuff like that and again it's she's just very upbeat and positive about Avery, because she believes in her case she knows it at all these pieces of since this Houston study, and then she has the experts to back her up on Yeah really really really makes things. Look good for Steve. Every at this point in time we also didn't

went to some of the evidence that she was able to get from the new experts that she brought on board, but some of them Compelling evidence is an also offers an explanation that confounded Strang and feuding at the original Avery trial and that was concerning the theory that they put forward, that the blood that was planted in the era of the Rav four was from. A sample that turned out to be not the source of the DNA. So she goes and does the investigation in this and you cry nickel all of it where she gets the blood spatter experts they do the experiments it's shown in the documentary as well. It's gone into more detail in your book about exactly what they found and how they found that. So she is an exhaustive job with our investigative team and congrats. This is John. You have done the same with this book read

Lee explaining the case for Kathleen Zellner to be able to Exonerate Steven Avery some at some point, And she has said you write in the book she said to her followers. Maybe five hundred thousand on her twitter account to hang in there, because she believes he's innocent and that she will prevail. Is that correct. Yes, it is yeah and and again it's one of the things that that tomorrow maybe the day somebody else will come forward. A witness will come forward or it could be a week from now. So it's it's one of the things that she's not she hasn't stopped doing their investigation and she's, even just in the last month or so Dan gone back into the dancy garage. If I'm not mistaken,. Yeah taken some samples and dies still again. She is doing the work at the investigators didn't do back in two thousand five and what not be something He L F Lone behold.

That that analysis that she's doing right now and You know on on the garage floor would really turn out something like something Teresa Holbach's blood on the ground, so we'll see we'll see. Absolutely I'm sure that I'm certainly convinced that Kathleen Zellner is the person to be able to free Steven Avery, and I am even more convinced of everything that I've read, and we talked about are people that believe that certainly Steven, Avery and Brendan Dassie are absolutely unequivocally guilty, but This really really opens your mind to the good possibility of a conspiracy by judicious of judicial official. To frame Steve Avery. Once again, that's been incredible

I want to thank you very much, John Ferric, for coming on and talking about wrecking crew, demolishing the case against Steven Avery. I know this is a wild blue press release tell us how they might find out about your other work. That's been featured on this show and find out about this book. Yeah, I was to say, see, opportunities out there for people are often times just go to wild blue press dot com and in again three of my other books that are published with wild oppressor. Are available there, including my two thousand and sixteen book failure of justice which chronicles the largest run, conviction case in the United States, is history. Six people that were wrongfully condemned in the state of Nebraska for crime rate in commit the other opportunities just just go to Amazon. You could pretty much find all five of my true crime books I am assigned as well and again often times I've written about wrongful conviction. Cases at style of these cases and just really just really.

Taking an interest in this type of work. So again, Amazon or Wild Blue Press are probably the two best places to go well. Thank you very much, John. It's been a pleasure, a great pleasure. Thank you very much, and congratulations on wrecking crew, demolishing the case against Steven Avery. An incredible work thing very much, John hope to speak to you again soon. You have a great evening goodnight. To. Thank you very much again, dad for the opportunity have a great night. Thank you. Goodnight.

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