In this episode, I talk to two women who provide wise counsel for those of us who have struggled with belonging and faith (and still do on occasion). Sue Monk Kidd and Jen Hatmaker are dissident daughters, brave leaders, and the very best companions for a contemplative journey.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hi I'm Bernay Brown and MRS Unlocking S set Aside- is brought to you by audible. And today I will talk about something: that's actually knew and free on audible that I am really really into an its audible sleep. So this is again free right now you can go and download it for no cost. Combination of bedtime, stories that stations. Just comfy tuck ends I think Peters, seven or eight of them right now I'll take the ones I listen to yourself. I have listened to a meditation by ditty called honour yourself, which is really beautiful and can a guide you through a breathing meditation designed,
Hope you slow down, find some inner peace and go to sleep, and I don't know about you. I gotta tell you insomnia and sleep regulation right now is I don't know what's happening, I mean, I guess I know it's happening because I dont know what month were and much less what day it is or what time a day it is an I think a lot of us are having trouble sleeping. So that's one of the things in its interest because I part north audible cause if you listened hard cash. You know that I'm addicted to listen to books and I like to shear where books and listen to you and play snippets of them, but I found this on accident, one of my favorites annexed Thirdly, because I'm not a big baseball person, I mean like baseball, but I'm not a huge baseball, Bat Nick Jonas, the singer songwriter Anglesey actors, while reads like Thirty five minute bedtime story called the perfect swing about Had the nineteen forty one world series now I've heard some base, people say, sleep
that puts you death a bedtime story, the third, a bedtime story for me. That's a bedtime story because his voices so soothing? I just love. It felt like someone me a bedtime story. The there too, and a guy theatres, eight or nine of these, but the other two that I really loved. One of them is from Gordon Hampton and Gordon is an acoustic ecologist. His mission is to preserve nature through sound and so kind of. Unlike can nature sounds that are mixed in studios is the real deal he so I like his cape cod, national seashore and You can tell it's real, it's his body, have there been listening to sound machine and you feel like people are speaking to you in foreign languages. Is that just me I can't be just make thy MIKE Almost asleep that I hear it's like. We then am I gonna guide, I'm getting really Emma.
Just from someone anyway. This is not that kind of fake made music. It's really just. He set up speakers in Cape COD. It is amazing. I have used that two or three nights in a row now and those on the ship on time. So there's that The last one on a touchy about and I'm try, the others too is. I think people really love this or they don't love it, but have you ever heard of a sound bath like this immersive. No wait. Literally, it's like you're being bathed in sound and the person who does it is zero Auster. Who is a renowned, sound therapist she's in she kind of Guy your breathing to help you sell your heart rate and relax your body and then you're kind of blanket have sound. That, I think, is probably created If I had to guess, I haven't read a lot about it, but I think it's created Maybe by some kind of bowls crystal balls, but beautiful,
So let me tell you how to get this again free available right now, you can How'd you W W w dot, audible, dot com. Flash sleep or you can just go to audible, dot com and then put in the search sleep in its new, it's free, I love it they're, giving us a way right now, because we really need it. I leather there also donating meals daily right now through the Newark Working kitchens. For first ponders, and people need so people are not going to bed hungry it's a hard time. Sleep right now check out this audible sleep, so Althea in sleep land, hopefully, God willing the creek dont rise, we'll get some sleep, again the Semi Debbie, Debbie, DOT, audible, dot com. You can also, if you're, just all inaudible on audible, which I am all in on audible. You can actually get you. Retrial at audible, dot, com, backslash, BB, again as will not come back Flash B B or you can text, be two five hundred dash five hundred,
all right talk about the episode today, I'm not even sure where to start yo. When I heard that Summa kid and gin hat maker had booked coming out on the same day, I was like, of course they do because tough about dissonant daughters. If you know sumac kids book you'll know that's a reference to her one of her books about struggling with faith. Patriarchy in religion and finding voice in sumac kid was first person to teach me that I could love God had even be in a relationship with church, question some of the man made rules and by man made. I mean manmade rules. She taught me that sometimes the
search for myself and my own voice was going to piss people off and that include in houses of worship. And help make her. Why is someone who in recent history taught me what it looks like to find your voice and hold your ground in the minutes? of people threatening you. Your home. Your face, not your face, you're, what shipping home, which is different than your faith? What have and when you are threatened with a loss of belonging and you to choose doing what you believe is right and in alignment with faith and belief, verses What the man made again parts of faith and belief say so what I've done is I've combined these episodes, so I'm in I assume kid. First then I mean oxygen about both new books and also just about their lives and who they are as to mean and readable
Incredible guides for me on my journey. So let me just give you a little specific information about C mon kid. I'm humaner from the secret life of bees, which spent more than a hundred weeks on the New York Times, bestseller less so more than six million copies in the? U S and was turned into an award winning motion picture in a musical spinning, They didn't thirty. Six languages novel, the Mermaid chair with a number one New York Times bestseller and was adopted into a television movie her third now. All the invention of wings, which was an open book club to point. Opec was also a number one bestseller. Her memoirs, the dance of the dissident daughter, which was then groundbreaking workin, religion and feminism and the New York Times baseload. She wrote with her daughter travelling with pomegranates, beautiful. I'll tell you that her book, when the heart waits it wasn't my midlife night of the soul companion. It was my fault
it was my umbrella. He was my everything during my midlife kind of spiritual down slash. Rising, maybe and so join me This conversation with sumac kid, I think you, I know you well find her eyes Helene, brilliant and planted, I can't think of another word as anyone you ve ever met talk to send to read sumac, get I'm a little bit star strikes imo. Take my deep breaths itself bunny, because. Sometimes when I meet people at events the thing they say to me is, I feel, like I know you do you get that alot sue? Oh, yes, all the time, because I feel like. I know you. Yes,
and I know a lot more about me than I know about then so it's kind of weird he'd have yeah it's completely weird. You have worked with me on some bear. A treacherous paths in my life. I sat right yeah. So let me start by saying thank you. Your well man have you been a guide for me have to start with a couple of quotes that I keep near and dear to me going all the way back. To win the heart waits. Tell me about that book, for you think every book. I right is a scary prospect and helping the end how's that even when I wrote when the heart waits it was adventure. Me and to some unknown territory, because it was about contemplative spit,
quality and really had a theme in the union. Psychology that I was very interested in I grew up in a evangelical church. This was like going to the moon or something you know his liked. So there was that which is always good to have to take a deep as before he write something. That's probably a good sign, but the book was very important to me to write this book. It was deeply honest, and it was my turn rotation of my process, my own process that fell classic to me. It fell. Universal, but I didn't really grasp that until I began to meet leaders who would say that was my journey that now felt like we're talking right about my own experience, so that was in a way
the startling and deeply satisfying, because I realized tat, it was a kind of universal experience and the deeper we go into our own individual, Johnny the more likely we are to hit the universal pay. So can you say that again because that is Absolutely if I looked back on twenty years of my career, that is Absolute truth, can you say it again, the deeper we go into our own, sperience our own journey. The more likely we are to hit the universal, it's a strange, almost counter Intuit, the idea very light. If we can look very deeply into our very specific particular
Journey, and no it as an authentic process. There is the universal end there and we will likely hit it I have to say that for me, I read when the hard way the titles when the heart Wade, spiritual direction for life, Sacret questions. I read that During my midlife unravelling, where and I just Couldn'T- carry the armor anymore, that perfecting pleasing and proving was too much to bear an it Literally sat on my I stand and I had to be able to see it when I woke up who, during that Christ because, if I didn't see it, I felt and tethered I want to read just a couple quotes to you from that book. Your words. I realise that the heart of religion, with setting up an honest dialogue with the uniqueness of one soul and finding it
play personal relationship with God, the inner voice, the inner music that plays in you as it does in no one else. The lot of digging to get to the inner music the place inside of us, yes, indeed, it's a beautiful experience to find the music. It plays differently and every person, but I really think that term the route to that is often through this quite there more contemplated experience. At least it was for me meteorite. I just love so much hearing your story about that. It's kind of arson to me to hear that I've got a sheer one more quote from that book because it really was. I do now Anyone that's hit mid thirties, unlike this is the first book. You need a red right here. This is their your midlife companion ok, so I have always been sue. My entire life very focused
driven ambitious kind of today in this sense,. I don't know the sentence handed me to know exactly where your headed, maybe the best way to go astray not all who loiter are lost Yes, I had to learn to loiter. I started trying to address it up at college, creative loitering or spirits, or something to make it more palatable to me, but it's true, some of the best stuff, the best conversations with ourselves all happen. Went with loitering around in my life has always been a conflict. Rages in May sometimes is quite or other times between this urged to do just what you were talking about to go,
and mine, too, was very ambitious, driven, always doing in doing and then the other side of me is fighting that wanting desperately to loiter too sick ITALY and contemplate the gods, somewhere inside of me, you just be still. So there is always some conflict and probably ever human heart, and that's where the real stories are. You know- and I was always going back and forth with that- trying to find the balance in the homeless, so I especially with motherhood, you know when you're running around just with little toddlers, are growing r t So any kids. I remember that, and I have a painting that really represents that. For me, I bought this painting and its of Mary, the mother of genes.
And she is sitting in a very bright red dress and she has a baby kind of. You know how you can put one on your hip and just Virginia around it yeah busy. Something else for sure and she has a book open reading it with the other hand, and I thought there. I am no worker baby baby but what it gotta be. He was always this pool in me. Well no one rights, the pool like you do I can tell you for sure it we're gonna work our way quickly, but we're gonna work our way to your new book, the book of longings, I want to walk the path with you for just a minute. If you'll indulge me on that, because for me as someone who is a very devoted reader of your work, I can see how the path brought us to the book of longings. So then the dance of the dissident daughter.
A woman's journey from christian tradition to the sacred feminine dang. That was a risky book. Well that way my first taking my own breath away. You know, I've said so many times that every woman must take. On breath away at least once in her life, and thought that was mine. No, it wasn't. It was the book of longings, but at the time it felt like this one and. I remember sitting at my computer, I mean I wrote this book, it's twenty. Let's see twenty we're yourself. Is it really? It really is. It came out and ninety nine six, but I was writing it in the years before that, even I remember sitting there right these things and thinking I can not leave, I'm writing this, but by God I'm writing fit, but yeah you wrote it.
Let me read a quote from you: that's one of my favorite quotes and there so many a mean that book is more highlighted than is not highlighted, for me right this is the dance of the dissident daughter. There is, place so awaken alive as the edge of becoming but more than that birth the kind of woman who can ethically say My soul, is my own then embody. It in her life, her spiritual and her community, it's worth it risk and hardship. Yes, it is you wonder at times, but yes, I think that is a speaking of universal, our classic archetypal woman's journey their yes, that's it all of it right there in that quote, right yeah! I mean it's coming to our own soul to find.
Our belonging in ourselves to belong to ourselves, to know ourselves and to voice that tend to stand by that. It's all a journey so then, let's talk of how the wheezy SAS your next book, the sea, life of bees here who would think that with such a surprise, was oh, yes, of course, it will affect this because it's my first novel. I remember telling my mother that I just wanted to write a book that would be respectable and she would like to read and it would have nice little leadership. I never life imagined. It would have that many readers in the end The staff somewhere in here hold on. Let me look spent more than a hundred weeks and the New York Times bestseller less sold more than six million copies, which is completely rarefied ere. I mean the rarest of rare
I'd air enter into a word when he major motion picture Anna Musical and has been translated into thirty six languages. What is it about that book? speaks to us so yeah I dont. Really I've tried to about this, and I think there are mysteries about what resonates in people, but that book. Is about for me anyway. It's about the search for. A world mothering spirit and ass its among goodness, it's about finding love it's about. Finding a home where you least expected? Maybe not the one you're born into, but the real home these are our longings are earnings in the human soul, and so it must have resonated very deeply with people. If I could write a book that
touches the soul than I'm happy. I mean people talk about love things from novels, and I am all for that. I want people to learn things from my books they didn't know. Maybe What I really hope for is what Kafka call the ice acts on the frozen sea. I want it right in the heart too So, if I possibly can that's why I've has transformed and enlivened where we come alive or go on a journey or start The conversation with ourselves yeah world mothering spirit. For me, the sacks on the frozen sea, which is such a beautiful quote, the mermaid share your neck Spock well at the point where I had it willing to smell the marsh to open that book. You just took me into this marsh and it wasn't just that physical marsh.
Wise. Emotional marsh. For me of that's interesting. Tell me what that book meant to you Well, I have they, as I said this Contemplatives and I loved to hang out and monasteries, believe it or not. I love them and Thomas Martin, who was a trap, is not very significant in my formation, I guess you'd say spirit. That's in my life reading his writings, I can my on what I'll call my contemplative journey when I was twenty nine So the whole monastic world was just vivid for me You know. Martin had an interesting experience in the later years of his life, where he fell in love.
And had a relationship of some sort with a young woman that brought his feminist. I'd alive and brought Martin alive and some interesting ways and a lot has been written about it. So I thought to myself what, if I reverse that- and I tell the story of jet See who's been midlife marriage and done who falls in love with a marked? What kind of crisis which she Landon? wow. What does she respond to that crisis? What would her marriage. What would it do to her soul? Plus I get to write it. Placed myself. That's what I did. I see that story I see that story As us. When search to belong to herself, That's how I see it. It was the ass. I can see that completely I mean there's a line in it where she
as all my life, I had tried to complete myself with other people and now I just want to belong to myself- and that is part of the journey to you know just more complex kind of belonging and we, of course we want have belonging in with people, but ultimate belonging is with our own soul, That's the really long walk right failure, the tough one. I wanna go chew his eye, make sure we can talk about this new burgers man did you. Take it on. Tell me about writing with an your daughter. And travelling with pomegranates. So my daughter and kid Taylor and I wrote this memoir together, which call a mother daughter story, but
also a story, a two women at opposite ends of life, a mean yeah. Anne was right out of college, and I was turning lifting and we went off on this journey together to Greece and it turned into this extraordinary experienced some reef finding one another in our lives in new ways: As adults right outlet front- yes, that's right, but it was Also may searching for my third act. I guess she say I was at a creative standstill, sorted, my writing had gone to seed and and looking for what she was supposed to do with her life out looking, but with what unsurpassed do with the rest of my life and so it it's it's kind of.
Spiritual la journey, and I guess I would also say I was over there looking for Black Madonna's like crazy and discovering feminine divine amatory, which was very exciting to me, and so it informed the writing of the secret like bees. That's why it black Madonna turns out the secret like the bees, so that was a rich experience in many layered memoir. I guess how was the creative process? Writing together. Very interesting await joke that whenever we talk people we were writing a book together. The first thing they would say was well. Are you two still speaking which says a lot about mother door. Her experience it does, but we met, to avoid all of that, and not only where we still speaking, I just learned so much about her and it was an intimate except
area so that we, I think, became clear her through the writing of it. Even though we disagree about some things. Sometimes I gave her a card and set it on her desk and it was a quote by a nice name. That said, the role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are able to say- and I said that is what- you're here to do a whisper, and so we did our best and she would write one chapter, her chapter nine right minded: didn't we switch them and we'd each other's work and give feedback. That was kind of how it works in it was a great experience. I hope we can write. Another went together me to ok the invention of wings yeah the invention of wings happened because I was in the Brooklyn Museum in New York with the Judy Chicago Exhibit Charlie
yeah just awed and excited about it, and I came out just bleary. I what I had seen in there was. There was mesmerizing there was this time. I'm not sure they still have it, because I've returned in it wasn't there, but there were these sort of wall, a wall of women's names. Nine hundred and ninety nine of them- and I think I read every one of them and there was Sarah and Angelina Grumpy these two women who were the first abolition agents in America and they were from Charleston and I was living there at the time and I couldn't believe I did No about him and the more I learned about than the more excited I became by them. They were brave, they were brave women and I mean like raw courage. Laugh beyond brave, definitely- and I just
wanted to tell the story, so that's, but I have to say to us: I knew that tell the story of Sarah grim key we have to also tell the story of an enslaved woman and not really have to, but want to. That was a little daunting, because I was writing first person. Voice, seven is slight woman and so on. Had to do a lot of research. The happy Papa Day which the book of longing This came out, I'm just a reed. The back of this book out loud. And then I'm gonna try to catch my breath. Ok, I am Anna was the wife of Geese spend Joseph of Nazareth. All my life longings lived inside me rising up like knocked two whale and seeing through the night that
has been bent his heart to mine on our thin straw, Matt and listened with kindness. I most loved in him. What heard, was my life begging to be born. You have written a book about Anna, the wife of Jesus. We're about just like each other. Both we're on zoom right now we're both just like each other knew what I was saying anything she shaking her head, I'm shaking my head walk me: ended ass, yeah. Ok, it took my breath when I wrote it. Frankly. Be honest. And write this book lightly. I'll tell you that I wrote the first lines that you just read I wanted her to walk on this literary platform, this page. Announced herself
and this is really a literary announcement here. I am This is how I am right off the bat I wrote that and then I sat back and then looked at it and it came to me, was the line. I I said earlier, I thought, yeah. I went around telling people you should always do some least one thing in your life. That takes your breath and I told them I Eddie done it, but no, doing it right now, and it's scaring the you know what enemy, and so I felt really I felt really vulnerable yeah, so this book. Wasn't without some trepidation and yet, at the same time, this is the book I longed to write the book I feel like I was put here right it was so compelling for me and my soul demanded it, and I have
staying where I know when I'm being asked to write something because my son Hard is talking to me. My soul is talking to me Try to listen, and believe Longings are one of the most eloquent ways to solve speaks to us. We're ok, You have to say it again. Longings are well I'll, say it like this one of the most elegant ways the sole speaks to us is through longing and in the book there is a character named Yalta who says turn to your longings and they will teach you everything. I longed to write this book, and so I did, that is to say I didn't have to scrape up the courage to do it all the time. I'm just Tori about putting little signs in propping
my desk and I even had a bunch of Stan sold on the wall to my study up the stairwell wall. What a design sat yet one of them said: writing is an act of courage that when it is. It all boils down to that I would read these every day walking up. To my study and try to embody there, the best I could I'm so, like mesmerized, when you're talkin, I'm like forgetting to check my notes and go to the next question, because I don't want to take my eyes off you and I don't release my ears from your words there. Many things about But first of all I am we're going to get to the question about the research behind this, but I have to assume that there was a I can't. Even as a writer, I don't even understand the amount of research that when in this and I'm a researcher, let me talk about this first
longs for the freedom to bring forth what she calls the largeness and herself talk to me, about can it be as eloquent Asia character is in terms of talking about longings, but I'm gonna tell you where there's some heartbreaking. The book for me you the first person. That convinced me that I could love God and challenge The rules at the church I was brought up in that made me feel small unseen and unheard. Like you really where I have to say honestly and I'm a very deeply spiritual person still, but you were the fur. This person that I, leaved when I read that. Calling.
The man made, and I say that with intention the man made rules of the church and a question. Did not me, I loved godless and so on It talks about the law, bird's and herself. Tell me about that, because I grew up believing my christian faith. Work. As long as I was committed to my smallness yeah. We do get that message now. I believe now I didn't always know this, but I believe it now that every person has their own particular genius. That is their largeness than its unique to them. It's not that were specialists that were unique, and we all have this this. I call it the particular genius.
And bringing it forth is a life's work. You can talk about this in so many ways. Different language like we, here to create our soul or where artists creating ourselves any people speak of it in lots of ways, but I think of it this inner part of us that we bring forth- and I think we feared and this is what Anna says in her prayer she says. Bless the largeness in me. Even when I fear it it's frightening to think Having this of ourselves, this magna to this passion in ourselves were told to be humble and meek and mild in this why I love the black virgin Mary, so much as they call her in Europe, the black virgin, I'm not refunded, in part, but I do like the black Madonna. And she is fierce and she has just done
the dipped chin and the humble said the Lord eyes. She looks you straight in the eye. She places are first on her knees, and she says here I am here's my largeness, I think women need a little more of that now, it's not to say that we are being arrogant door thinking too highly of herself. I think we contain and in the right way, because its I thing God given what is in us and we're here to create that. I think probably the someone asked me one time. What does the sole do And I thought oh, how in the world do I know, but came to me, and I just sported it out- was the sun, loves and the cell creates, and one of the first things the sole learns to do is to love
to love life and to love our own self in our own life and everything. And ass. You know, but to create. Not just tangible things outside of ourselves, but within ourselves, that is to work with our largeness and Anna does that through the hole DORA. She is trying desperately longing desperately to bring forth her. Largeness is a gift to the world really tell me about the research behind this book o. My lord, while many years it has been years well I started, it was a it was before I started. Writing a word I researched fourteen, and that was I going School every day for about a half workers, about It was a lot and I there were days. I thought what have I got into
but mostly I really loved the research in fat got almost where I couldn't stop that yeah, I didn't Have someone my daughter tell me she did it in intervention and told me I had to stop studying the aqueducts, the roman aqueducts in Galilee and get on with it. You know what Getting bad mostly what I had to research or I'll say spent. The most time on was the scholarship of the historical Jesus. It was our so compelling amazing to study that. Do. You know what I was interested in doing as a novelist was talking about Jesus human side. Yeah I wanted to betray him ass. A man
in and let us see what is possible. I just during my endless research, I read the work of Marcus Borg God he's amazing. Well, I guess we Stephen call ourselves Borg again Christians, that, while I am count me in yeah came across, something as I was trying to grapple with the question, how does a person right the character of Jesus I'm putting words in his mouth and I'm doing all this, it really kind of does take your breath or my own breath, and I came across something Marcus Borg wrote in. He said there is the pre Easter Jesus and there is the post Easter Jesus and I thought that was absolutely fascinating and by that he meant that the
human Jesus, the one that was born around for a b c Lived and died somewhere around thirty c e was a real human being and an extraordinary one and we have somehow lost touch with that, because it has been overshadowed by how much emphasis we have put on his divinity. You know the church doctrine. Basically, is that he's fully human and he's fully divine, but I think most of us have just said home Ass, Divine and Marcus Boggs Point really was that by losing touch with the humanity of Jesus, we have lost the possibilities of what humans are really capable of love, and I just thought that is it
that's how I want to write pre, Easter Jesus, the postmaster Jesus is this divine reality that he later became through his followers. So tell the human side of Jesus in those lost years. They call the unknown years, and Jesus was really thrilling. Have you had a tough feedback from people who question? whether you should be writing this or not. Well, I'm sure there will be the new yeah. I mean, let's give them time. Has it hasn't really happened that much yet, although I have gotten a few comments, you noticed shall media. I hope one word explain to me that she was a catholic and a good Catholic and she said I
Thank. You must go to your nearest catholic church wherever it might be. You must go kneel before the blessing sacrament and you must ask us forgiveness three times and then you must try to retract Oh, my ok, so she was very specific and what I need not do about good. Yes, you know out there will probably be some controversy about it, but I'm used to rockin boats a little bit and am I went around the country. See block with the dance of the dissident, daughter or boy when I was not, as people ready to take it on his. I am now so you learn. Yeah, and you know what maybe That's an inherent part of taking your own breath away yet who is speaking speaking your heart. Only two words I have for you really are. Thank you. Thank you
for the longing, but also think. You for your courage. Thank you. You're, giving me personally permission to be a woman of faith but also to be in my largeness again. The challenge, ideas that I just felt like work unholy based on their merit. What again You have given us in this book and all your box that so, anxious so generous. Bring thank you for that You know I just mostly want to tell a story that that sweet people up, but takes them where they need to go their lives and Anna I was her longings. That's what she does with the help of this at Yalta, who is her lifeline in her co hoard in the she encourages her audacities. I, I guess we'll say
We are. We need ants like that. You're all man, ever I wish I had an annual we all need one. I discovered my aunt Ya'Ll furs later in life ass. My girlfriends met me time. I have Terry Tricia and curly and they are my aunt your face and they bless the largeness. In the end, we bless the largest in one another say: yeah go for it. We try to make each other do audacious things and leave in our largeness, and I think that's God, given that largeness and so what should be blast? You know. Oh, yes, it's the holiest. Us, don't you think I do. Think it is wholly and I feel like not only do we fear it, we don't even believe in it, so we have to come to believe There is so much more or less than we can even and we all have some
Passion to bring forward so Anna, happiness in your new book. The book of longings tell her prayer one more time and then we're gonna. Do a rapid, ten questions. Well, there's lines but I'll give you two of them. Shame I'll just say quickly. She wrote this prayer. An incantation ball, and that becomes- central icon in the story. And what she writes in her ball is the largest in me, even when I fear it, when I am dust seeing these words it's over my bones. She was a voice a man, I just say, amen to that yeah. She it'd, be a voice in the world and I think women's voices, women stories are so important right now and then why this story,
yours relevant. To me. I think, there's just a whole lot of Anna in a whole lot of women. Oh yeah! Ok, you ready for a quick, our quick, ten, a rapid fire Glasgow. Ok number one fill in the blank for me vote. Mobility is taking the armor and being who you are number two. You sue are called to be very brave, but your fear real, and you can feel at right in your throat. What's the very first thing you do take a deep breath my say and say it anyway them three something that people often get wrong about you that I'm not funny, I'm really yeah yeah. You have two because we write funny to me, like you know, right funny, but you write humor highway very deep and spiritual, bad and really funny it's ok. I have we could get a whole
had cast about that. How are people, how people think deepen contemplative in spiritual and funny are mutually exclusive, when I think funny is a prerequisite for contemplative in spiritual? Ok number or the last tv show that you bend and loved. Killing Eve so good about five feet. Movie, oh wow, that's too rapid lessee I love hiding doors, By going to paltrow- and I love shelly- Valentine Sure I'll be ok. If your listing right now and you ve never seen Shirley Valentine, I have to tell you I own it and everything from vcr changing any DE wall you have to get surely valentine and listen to our conversations with the wall. I love it so much to my favorite. Ok, a concert that you'll never forget James Taylor, favorite meal, lasagna.
What's on your nightstand untamed. For the second time around rain Jones Book. What's it called something grace and ok blue that one, but that's: ok, you got the wrong guy, author, ok, a snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life. That brings you true joy sitting in my little sir Outside in my back yard, with my dog Barney, and my husband sandy in our rocking chair, is listening to the Creek Heaven Heaven last one tell me one thing: your deeply grateful for right now, talking to a friend expressed thing, what is inside of me in being able to voice said Anne, heard. Thank you, my god. Thank you, see my kid light bearer
Heart unravel or midlife tour guide. Yes, thank you well, for all you through your work. For me, I thank you too. Ok on is that chest. Every now, and then you have a conversation that sweeps you away the swept me away, and- That is easier on zoom and. Sometimes we just looked at each other and smiled and we didn't see anything and we didn't have to, and it was incredible and now we're going to continue this part. Passed on longing and belonging and faith with French and help make if you found Let me add social media. You ve seen pictures of me and JANET. You t football games. We are friends. I r l in real life again I said interest she someone who put into
Yes, what it means to put everything on the line for your face when people from your faith hope threaten you with the expulsion and She is a mighty fierce one. For women, the material but about our she's, the twelve books, including the New York Times bestseller of mess in moxie wrangling, delight and of this wild and glorious life for the fighting for grace in a world of impossible standards and seven. Spare me the mutiny against excess Jen, is also the creator and happy host the award winning for the love podcast, which have maker she. The curator of the gin hat maker book club and sought after Speaker stores, the country, the time sometimes were are lucky enough to end up in the same places. She has been Brandon founded the legs.
Collective and also start in the popular series- my big family renovation in your big family renovation, on HDTV Jainism, One five zealous resident of Austin Texas, where she and her family are helping, keep Austin weird and a fellow longhorns supporter. Let's lean into a conversation with Jan around her new book, which is just incredible, which is called fears. Free and full of fire the guide to be. Inglorious, you Jeanette maker Jennifer, Baker I see you in your Texas forever teacher. You know it's so true. I'm just trying to remember that I'm a human person and that one day will walk back out of this house and I will see, see another human person and a man.
You are, on the other hand, have a real lady shirt on it. Has, I dare say, sleeve and enhanced powers on it. You just I'm really impressed what I'm looking out right now I phoning it and bring real hard. Like my hair itchy right now I I have on a real lady sure, if no a real lady bra that I've had on for the first time in five day. So I had to salute you I had to do it. Is I don't know what happened yesterday, which what was the date yesterday? What Mr Wynn, I now yesterday was the twenty second of April April. Okay, that was a hard day, for me and for all I don't know what happened like I am. I am I stay married. Am I gonna like like that? What is happening here? I am going crazy. Yet so was really looking forward to just seeing your face today and talking about fierce free in full of fire. Your new book. Thank you, for having me I'm. I had that
by the way. Last Friday, where I thought are we gonna stay married then am I gonna continued appeared. These kids adds gas, because I could get rid of wine and still have for you now so a lot, and so I have that's it. That's a crew yeah I mean I can you know the book. I too will ruin is what you say, but I hear you- and I appreciate you ice being so on it's about that, because anybody who is telling the truth right now is saying in that we are all haven't some real days, were we're just slaw gained through, and I had that too. We kind of his had to have a real content he's us all. We gonna be like we gotta figure out how to pull out of this spanish state over here. I'm with you. Ok, there are so many things I wanna talk to you about. This
This episode for our unlocking US community. What I explained is that I, What did you do you and sumac monk together? cause as a person of faith, and me personal faith is synonymous with a personal I call I you set this up by Saint Sue. Kid taught me that I could love God in question. The man made parts of the church and by man, made. I specifically mean manmade parts of the church. And that you, Inspired me to stay I fire and to stay fierce those challenges, despite massive consequences, yeah you have no thank you. I want to talk about fierce free, full of fire. What you learned, what you're putting into practice, but
when a bullshit people cause, I also want to talk about the price yeah its high or not to do it, but let's talk the price to alter it? Doesnt serve us well at all to glass that part over or two ten like that's, not real, or that it does it cause actual pain or even less. Real loss that would not be fair discussion here and so fear This is kind of the home, a nation of why I lived and learned and really and did you say, earned way? I just want to stop right. There lived, learn, and fully earned yeah right. I think the best stuff is earned yeah, it's the stuff tat. We face head on, even when it's scary and terrifying and hard and guaranteed to costs from suffering forest were,
You know I'm actually there's lost built into this, or I can't control the outcome of this, and still is the right thing to do. It is the right path to take that's and freedom. That's what I feel like this is. You know. I love that you're setting up this episode. The way that you are in this phase packaging, I came up through to their very convention all true dish all organise religion space. Weeworld DUI. I knew I didn't have another perspective. I didn't have any competing ideas. I didn't even know to question that entire older So I realized that I got to a point in my adult. Life were a whole truckload convince is TAT I had been handed, which I just received by the way. I wasn't very in Taipei, rule follower type and so my
the idea of ambition was to be the best good girl there was like, I would follow all the rules, the best I would hit all the marks the best. I would be the most comply at the most obedient. The most make sure everything that I knew, which was also high currency and that community- and I was get it that I was a darling and I built a huge career, thereby the way- and so I built this entire world and then started note. Soon, as I got older, saw more heard. More listened, more learned, more experienced more my worldview expanded. The people in my community begin teach me things. I start paying attention, unlike oh no, oh gosh! Oh some of this doesn't match what I believe some of this- I don't think it's true. Some of this is built on systems of injustice and White Supreme
see and massage any and patriarchy and homophobia and Now, what am I gonna do because I'm like a poster girl over there I saw, but let me ask you this now want to slow us down what did that physic? We feel like an emotionally feel like for you, as if y'all could see Jen right now. She is. Everything of us will know that she's in full on face rub she's wiped the eyebrows off her face right now. I want to know what, The inconsistency felt like for you emotionally and physically. Thank you for asking a question. It's a good one. I was so assured from such a young age, and not even just subtly. Overtly assured that I could not trust myself that something was bad about me by heart was bad deceit
and wicked, on my mind, was bad ambition was bad one hundred percent. You need a structure or an authority was very bad completely from the public so that something inside of me wish just off, and I just thought golly. I guess I'm just gonna hafta just to do better to earn approval somehow, and so it never occurred to me that I can trust anything about myself. My instinct, my own good eyes and ears paying attention to systems and rhythms that were breaking people's hearts. I couldn't trust my guy. I couldn't trust what felt true and so, when those things started to rub for me- When I started to realize that I was one gene in this room, this big public room that everyone can see- and I I About that room- and I knew the language of that room- but I was a different Jane over Here- and this is a private room, that it was
that was the only safer. My head, it was very small. Nobody can see it. Nobody knew that I was visiting it, but when I to realize that those two things were disintegrating. I was terrified I felt physically set. I stop sleeping I default into the mechanism, which is The reason this is making me feel so with such turmoil is because something's wrong We are not allowed. I'm thinking the wrong thoughts again here. I am questioning some things and it's making me feel bad, but my body was trying to tell me that I had permission to trust myself that I had permission to trust me: true and good right, and when something I was handed- and I was told this is true, then right. But what I see at the other end of this is pain and suffering and loss and sorrow and exclusion. It felt. Terrifying to question I will, I didn't know that I could, I didn't know other people had
still the private room. You know I was in a private room. I didn't know, I didn't know allowed. But what is system where it tells you all the rules and. Tells you if you start to question them or Thing kills off and you feel sick, it's because your questioning them, I mean That is a good system. That's a winner, systematic, a winner football playbook right there I mean it's just a built in mechanism right there yeah it's to assure you that you are off the path and it works its very, very effective because here's the deal bernay like we're talking about this in a thief contacts, but I bet a lot of women can understand us. We have these sub groups, they subcultures that we are a part of, and they all have their own set of rules. You know they all have this if expectations- and we know what they are like, I knew They were and in my world, and I don't think it's just might. I think this is a lot of space is actually the currency. Was belonging so I knew for
I hit my marks when I give the room what at once I get to belong. That's my prize about that behaviour will be rewarded. These types of behaviour, the ones that I had over my little private room. The questions that I was asking the Since I was pushing on the doctrines I was re, examining if I bring any of those behaviors and in the private room to the big public room, The will be the first thing that gets revoked, that's the punish you and I yeah now you're into neurobiology too, has now you're into the knee. To belong Is hard wired and so pretty you're in your room, your physically sick you're, not sleeping! You know something's wrong. Tell me about that ass gate of decisions you have to make and how that plays out. Here is the thing
Women will just you never ever thrive. We will not flourish f. The cost of belonging is our silence like we can keep it for a while you know for a while- and I did a patchwork- the thing together me too. It was also a leak out. No because it does is leaking out because a lot of turbulence and my committee be like now- those are not things we say those are not people we'll mine with these are not questions. We ask. And it would be so swift and sub here today, which I knew then I would spend two or three weeks just being unimpeachable, journeymen, I'll, just be absolutely adorable. I will be charming. I will say something that cannot be disagreed with I will hold the same together somehow and kind of repair it. So I had all these little stabs in the fabric,
that I knew just ultimately will not hold because I couldn't handle it. So I got to the point where I said: ok, I see now Jane. You are either going to get to hang on. To your career as you have built it and where you ve it as you know it or you organs It's a hang onto your integrity, but you do not get both. These are incompatible. So you pack and I put my integrity and I decided that the cost of my silence was too high the cost of mind. It really was too high. I convey it. I can pay for another day, so I just said: if the whole thing burns, if not one bit of it ever gets rebellion You know what I had no idea. I didn't know if I would reveal I didn't know where I would go. I didn't know who would have me. I didn't know What other kind of community.
I would lay and even know that was a thing, but I just said: even if it is it like, even if it is it there is, there is a comfort in being true. It is its own reward, Integrity is its own reward and it was and it held it, helped me tie it held me fast long before anything, recovered Tommy the decision. You made a real decision. This was not a theoretical exercise younger decision huge financial consequences, huge career the tell me what the decision was. Tell me what you decided and how things fell apart, right, a pay, so there's big umbrella underscore the face structure that I was in and it was very much. It was founded a pine and dependent upon a lot of systems of oppression, yet not the least of witches patriarchy, I mean that's right, that's a whole skeleton and racist.
There was a lot in there, and so I started to notice that- Our I ship with people of color was creating a ton of turmoil that just a white fragility inside that conversation with untenable. That was the big tear, so things are starting to unravel, but for me apparently, ultimately, the straw that breaks the camel's back in that particular It's done, air is unequivocal, ball ally, Shepherd support, an affirmation for the algae b, t teach immunity, and so that is the thing that's the way it can sustain. The system can sustain some of those smaller tears and the fabric, but not that one we ve for time, and so when Brandon and I decided that we had to pick our tax
we had to pick this community. We had to pick justice, though this was a justice issued for cryin our we knew the cost, and so that was a very public declaration if you will and then the cost, with immediate, immediate and fast and punitive. It was just like law upon loss for while it's never thought I'd be like like yeah, it was like Dixie Chick. Action. It was one of your books when leaders like they pulled your that a bookstores, oh yeah and out of print now just had a bookstore that out of writ books that were selling and- and being bought and read out of print it, and then it was just as we mentioned earlier, complete excommunication of the you know the book my belonging was immediately pot and so to your way.
There is real loss and real pain, it's not fake and it's not easy, and so I hope in fears. I have told the truth about that that I did not make that seem a simple step just to get pad out. You didn't buy, I'm telling you did you ever to meet my friend, Rachel held Evans. Did you ever get to talk to her dinner? all we ever did was exchange. Messages on twitter yeah. You could have known her bernay added to this. She was so special all right when all that was going down and everything was just an absolute fire, just absolute fire. I couldn't see out of it, I'm just nothing but smoking flames. Rachel call me and she had been robbed. Men turned to me. She was one of the guys that I watched him. Oh my gosh look what's possible, I didn't notice as possible. I didn't know
community existed, I didn't know there is a possibility of spiritual curiosity, but is it yeah honest? I do not. I was a real and she was a real Certainly I remember she called me right in the middle of just the heat in the flames and she goes Jen. I want to tell you something that you're not even gonna, know that you can believe right now, because everything is so scary and every this allowed and you're just gonna through that that's too bad, but she was like. I promise you that when you emerged from this and What you have intact is your integrity and your goodness, she said, really and truly it will be enough. That will be enough for you. It Wilson. Stan- you hold you in this- and it serve you later and she was so right at the only thing. If I had any regret at all, it's that I wish I could go back and make every one of those decisions soon
I wish that all those years that I carried tension where I was one way with this group in another way with this group- oh, I wish I could go back and not have wasted a single unnecessary day, because this is, with. This is real freedom. And real beauty. Now, I'm living in a world I didn't even know about, and it is so beautiful and so good and true and genuine and safe. This is my highest vision for women to live. Like this Ok was jump into one of the thing. I love about your new back. So let's get inside baseball for a second, yet new book, do you feel around new books coming out. Most we disastrous me. Do I just stopped.
So what I love about books are the words of them. That's when I left the words the treat inside those words, the possibility of those words hold for readers, what they can create in real life. That's what I love I love all about. I can I can just eat that others spoons the part where I have to tell everybody that and talk about that alot and be like here it is it's in a book store, I just die, I just come down and I fall apart m. I t like pets me like tat. Hair like yeah gotta, can tell their handling My journey- and you know you are young adults- I managed all the time you manage all the time. I turn yeah I manage mostly during book launches. Yes, me to get I'll get a little email.
Just a little emo enough, you're doing great, oh my god being held. I know it, they see me I'm fragile. It's just! I didn't get, I'm not an author, because I want to be a marketer. You know I'm an author serve my community anyway, whatever it's just as this and there were inside of, and I dont know I dont know how to manage in another. However, get out of it. Do you have a solution Now I have no idea, I ok, I'm the exactly where they had to ask, because I think it's over. Everything you said in the beginning, as long as the words live in the small little true room to kind of trust everything else is going to work out. Yeah, that's it that's it. That's that's all I can do ok. What do you think that you do in this book, Is you give a lot, and I love this- about specific strategies that have worked for year right for me?
I think right now and not just because we're Corona virus right now, but because we're dead. Like we are grasping right for rules. Right now I am yeah we're grasping for tools, so tell me. Some of your favorite tools, that you use chew. What I would call on from a union perspective, probably integration, yeah. Why one gin, the gin that brain insular agenda. Your kid see, the JANET the world sees one person tell me about some of your favorite integration tools. I did that Hindsight course you're all in there. Thank you for giving us the tools that you gave us all the time they have served me immensely. So I got here I Joanna, my oh, my gosh, I'm free. What? How did I get here, which has happened? It was very, very fuzzy, and it was very, very crazy, and so I looked back over ominously, the last for five years and went down.
Help me get here. Who have I didn't listening to her Teachers and leader span: what kind stations. Have I been learning from what tools and resources have I served, and so it was really hindsight we're back inside of picking up all the pieces, we're ever they all were and put him in one place, literally, I shut everything in this thing that I know now. I don't know that's everything. There is just one person, but its everything that got me here and that ink lids and integration I and how I think about talk to entreat my body. So I have a variety of really incredible. Teachers and mentors who have. Led me well and so inside the book. It's not a memoir its. I hope that it is just a mighty resource in the hands of women, it's got things like is scripts and literally conversation sentences to put in the conversation that his heart,
you think I'd just kind of a mass I've got a lot of stuff from you all. Your work, untrue belonging is everything. It's actually everything to me. It's exactly what we're talking about here. And so your work on true belonging served me so well, like I remember the first, when I read a couple of paragraphs where you defined true belonging, man and I just remember thinking that sounds like a dream, but maybe an impossible dream. Because of the cost built into it, and yet here we are- and so so hopefully I don't just it's hard to do. Shine a light on areas of disintegration for women without offering a path I agree. It is depressing because we all know we know those places. We know the places that rob. We know the places we will We know the places where we are pretending, add just keeping the temperature stable in the room that somebody else wants us to keeping
know what they are not a mystery. So hopefully I hoped that a man will finish in enclosed the last page and feel like. I know what to do like nowhere to go. I know my next steps. One of the things I love that you write about is be ok with wobbly beginnings, yeah tell me about me that that would you do it the way I about this book? Is this The way I picture it. Yeah I'll die gin. I wouldn't say walked, is probably privilege graceful, Joe crawl down a path. For several years, some of it covered and broken glass. I got to the The path found freedom, her fierceness from learning that she earned walk back to the beginning of the path and then strong, twinkle lights down the path for us to follow, but a greater witty yeah yeah, went back and said: okay, have crawled down this path. It has led me to somewhere solid in Rio, now
me go back in illuminates some of the more treacherous parts of the path. Yes, that affair. I longer politically- and I like that- you mentioned the wobbly beginning part, because it's really tempting sometimes Oh look at women that we respect that we admire that are leading us well and see them. Closer to the end, and just the elevator so unreachable? You know it's just you also laughable about the true, no, that's, not true. Everybody had to get there. It's just that some people started sooner. Some people came from a sub group. That was just more charitable. Thus their journey was received with kinder arms. You know- and so there so many factors built into that, but it is widely those first few steps are shaky, especially for flexing new muscles. We ve never flax, if always ever, died, is figure out how to keep them
PS, I'm going on quotation marks, keep the peace for everybody else and then in doing so rob our own selves of peace than women. Finally decide that we have the right to our own ideas and convictions and desires and wants and needs and boundaries. Those muscles are vague and take some working. It's gonna take some working until their solidly under you, and so that's ok, like I don't think we ever disparaged dispersed these. That's those are the bravest, that's what I sometimes I just I wanna go back till gin of five years ago, the one who was scared as shit and staring down what was inevitably gonna, be allowed a loss, but still on the other side of it still very much succeeding
very much beloved right, very, very centred and privilege and favoured in my group, I want to go back to the gene that decided to let it all burn for the sake of honour. And integrity and hug her. I want to be like MO those steps were so wild. Oh, you were just like literally falling on your face. You just, but you did it like you did it so I would say that all women to those very first few steps down the path you're taking up your on it. You ve lost up issues that in something it means something and something I mean something one step at a time, maybe slow, but it will get you somewhere, and so I honour it. I honour the movement, a guy honour, every single step that you You know one of the things I ve been thinking about a lot yeah. I've only been doing the podcast, for maybe two or three weeks weeks. Maybe I don't even know how long a weekend for weeks
and talking to you talking to keys, Tirana, Burke Lenin, doubt torches sumac get one of the things that has really struck me- and I think it fuck me probably kind of pierced. My heart, little bit when reading your book that the new book fierce rainfall, fire Is. When women say I can't afford to pay the price I can't afford to pay the price of. If I stop moving: stop perfecting pleasing. I can't afford to pay the price as air There's not a price being paid now every lie is costing somebody something the question: Oh my god say that again, every single day, We are telling or protecting. Maybe it's just
silence that were protecting life, but it is costing somebody something. So the question is who is benefiting from this lie and who's paying the price, because it's never knew It is never neutral. There is no status quo that values justice. In truth, they are counting on our submission and our silence and complicity so that that power deferential stays in play right if we're waiting on systems overturned themselves, we're just gonna, go to the grave in an unjust world, so this work is ours to do and those lies cost us something they cost you that coastal they cast a woman, her heart and soul. They crossed her her own agency over her own damn wife Cost is too high that prices to hide. You don't have the time with you too high for children. I here's how this is clear from
When I m sure you will understand that I breathe this air, my whole life, and so it is so much work for me to undo this as a grown up I had to the pole and unravel adjust to tear it all the fabric of all this, it's hard on learning and then realer he had so that makes us sometimes hard for us to believe that we are worthy of this, but we are worthy of our own trade. We are worthy of our life. We are worthy of On the free naughty and possibility and freedom, but yeah, here's where this could clear for me: because I'm telling you, even as I'm talkin to right this minute. I a mean little voice right here in my head bee. Unlike what do you do? we too so mean- and I've had it for so long, but when I think about my daughter's when you think about that, the clouds part the clouds part, because when I go away, aren't they worthy of ownership? Aren't they
worthy of freedom. Aren't they worthy to be inside relationships and systems and structures and faith communities that are true and real and good? A hundred percent? Would I ever want them to shake shift just to keep a power deferential intact confidence that our planet, student. I cannot even stand it, and so this is work. I think we do right now in our generation and we pass it on. Our daughters in strength. Hopefully they will read this book that I just wrote in a few years and is not even get it, but nothing about like you must have been bad, then yeah. I hope it is actually obsolete for the next generation. Here's. My other one thing I want to ask about for our fast ten, here to find and explore, We don't have to choose between home nineteen in
I guess sumac kid would call our largeness are individual genius and gift that that we're here to find and explore Are we really still haven't? We are still having that conversation partly Manning. I believe we're on the downhill slope of that. Ok, that's my best hope on my birthday. The reason I think that is because of my daughter is twenty Yes, what? What? What are you even talk? English? What are you talking about? It would never have occurred to her to operate inside those sort of structures, though I think we're on the downhill slide here. Underneath it. If we have any internal work to do here to expedite this process, I think it is simply I wish that women word believe that they have the right to what they have the right
what they carry. Why did you can leave the night air they can want? They can one big. They can want something like an wrote replacing ways they want it with ferocity that is beautiful, wonderful on and that sort of feminine wanting has deeply served the world a meaning that has created so much human flourishing, and so I hope women can learn to trust that the other you get that you get to want something as wild as the day is long, and I think if we addressed that, if we say none- and I get to do this- and I want to do this- not gonna do this, and that is not a binary thing that I have. Agnes, or this we're gonna finally put a period at the end of the sentence and build a put it to bed. My daughter, his twenty, our daughters of the same age, on her sixtyth birthday, was in her sixteen per I know his mother's day when she was sixteen wrote me a card that sad thing.
You for showing me that I can be ambitious and be a good mom, yeah and she said I know labelling missing some games. I know you hate that, but I dont want to ever have to choose so for that I just I still have the card in everything. It is it's the only thing I hope she does better than me is less guilt about it. Like I'm, I'm doing it, but I still feel himself I'm still hard and we both shrouded her living. So that's hard, you ready for my rapid ten, I sure am ok, never work fill in the blank forming vulnerability is worth it too Eugene are called to be brave, but fear is real? It's right in your throat. What is the very first thing you do. I gather my girlfriends on my porch and force them to talk me into courage. Awesome
something people get wrong about you. All I am not tender, then I can handle anything, nothing hurts. I hate that one just speaking personally that deficits, hard last show you Benjamin loved, shakes, Craig Favorite Movie, Notting Hill, A concert you'll, never forget, Aerosmith favorite meal, so hard that I am asking my favorite kid. It's gonna be I'm gonna have to stay a whole culture, I'm gonna have to say typhoid. I can't pick it. I can't wholesale, let the whole affair that you got it yeah. What's on your nightstand, I'm trying to say nothing to tell you the truth or lie, but I did you send tell you the truth
a wine glass with just a little bit away left in it that without last night and the last book I just finished, which is the nightingale. A snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life. That brings you real joy. Forget when Abbe my kitchen with a knife in my hand and onion on the counter choppin away last one one thing your deeply grateful for right now. I am so grateful the goodness of people, is just coming out everywhere. Right now. I'm hanging in open my phone without seeing the most beautiful stories of connection and look. Can I tell you the quick, a story yeah. So it's so short, but you know fierce just came out on Tuesday it's a brandy baby and its central, we're time to release a book and I dont recommended, and so
everything or they become built around. It was cancelled and not possible and everything's virtual about so, and that included realistic. So my girlfriends, who live fifty yards this way, texted me on Tuesday the day at least about clock and said, come outside, let's take a walk and we want to celebrate. You will take a socially distanced. What we just at least want to see your face in sheer on the Balkans, a yea we see waved and semi no clue actually actually no clue. Unlike you guys, it's hot and the right to appeal will make it short or my you guys have conflict plots there like a guy like it'll, just be a strong, and so though it come outside. So I start coming outside and the where houses situated. I can't see anything I can't see the road again. I have almost been run for us. He conversed halls where the brain and, following a quasi, find me when a weirdo and wasted filming me that's where too and I started getting out of the street, and I can't tell what's happening first things. My ears, I hear
all these little bike bells thing they may maintaining, and I see my friends and their dressed, we're there dressed up and are bikes heavily streamline among all that's cute. They did with acute little thing and then I like she's somebody dressed in a big dinosaur, costume and and see my mom request, my mom here. Did you see my sister's former sisters here and get all the way up the street and I looked down. There are cars wrapped around the block and its everybody who loves me and they have signs and learns and confetti and banners, and they are screaming and they are honking and their dreams having binding slowly in their jumping out of pudding, gifts in a socially distance to pocket. For me and I the Geneva should get. It is, don't you didn't like it was the most increase. Maybe like everything that matters will last our love for each other are connection
each other. The way that we love and servant chairman another all that will none of that is in jeopardy right now, even now, even in this weird quarantine world that suffers finding a way to bubble up and rise up and still light, just absolutely Phil are hardly joy, love, and so that is giving me hope, right out people, people they're, still good, there's still a good little girl comes down gin have maker. Thank you so much and thank you for the good work in this book. We love it thanks for having me on. I really appreciate your being in this conversation with me today. Thank you for listening to unlocking us as we expect. Word longing belonging and faith with Sue monk. Engine hat maker, why
The things I want to tell you. There are so many links I can share with you around their work things they Britain things have meant a lot to me. The best place to go find that is just to go to Bernay brown dot com hidden locking asked button on the home page that I'll take you to all the episode pages where you can get links to everything, books, websites, a social media, the shorter That is that you can find and hat maker on her website. It Jane have maker dot com. She action have maker on twitter action have maker on Instagram. And find the pod guess, information or but clear information on our website. Soon, kid. Outside the sumac kid dot com and she is on Twitter at Sea Monk, an instagram at sumac. Kid again, I want Thank you so much for listening with us and a huge thinking To our sponsors for this
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awkward, braving kind friends, hands washed hearts open. Thank you.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-25.