« Unlocking Us with Brené Brown

Harriet Lerner and Brené - I’m Sorry: How To Apologize & Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2


This two-episode special is based on a course that Dr. Harriet Lerner and I did together on her groundbreaking book, “Why Won’t You Apologize?: Healing Big Betrayals and Everyday Hurts.” You can expect authentic, hard conversations (and one helluva role play) about making mistakes, healing hurts, and being brave. Harriet is a friend, mentor, and teacher. Her work has shaped my career and made my life better. During a time of deep uncertainty and anxiety - when many of us have struggled to be our best selves all of the time - apologizing has never been more important. (

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey relax I'm burning brown and this is unlocking us. The opposite, is made possible by cliff barring company, the family and employee, owned makers of Cliff BAR Luna BAR and very popular at my house, the cliff kids feeds this is a different kind of food company. Their guided by five aspirations sustaining their business brands, people community. And the planet. This is also known as their five bottom lines. There are valid who's that help cliff bar strive build an organic and sustainable food system while doing more good in the world for people places in communities that they touch. Had a chance to go. See their headquarters in California visit with the leaders visit with the employees who also, Cliff bar and I have to say they walk. The talk was an amazing experience for me. I learned a lot about leadership I learned a lot about
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excited about the pod casts plural. This week we have a two part special this week, Wednesday and Friday It's all about apologizing, and this is someone one for me and for many reasons, I'll start with this. I have apologised more since we ve been in Quarantine and we ve been in this pandemic. I think I've apologize more during this period of time that I have, and probably the last five years added together. About you, but I have not been my best self. I kind of my shitty self more than once more. Hired south. My anxious south, my play with feelings of like I have I've gotten used to be like the half ass. Like ok, am I can't do it all perfect? Sometimes it's like a half ass mom. Have US partner. Have us professor
but this has been like a quarter Athos problem that I've been up again since the pandemic started, and I find me of apologizing a lot, and I find myself deeply grateful. Harriet Learner, who taught me how to apologize so in when he seventeen she wrote a book called why won't you apologize and the two thus taught a class together. Poligized thing for In ass, we have taken that class and turn it into two parts. Ass. They were drop this week. What is an apology harry? do it, and why is it important there? there's a lot of good stuff in this podcast. Let me tell you we go there. I mean we re we go there and you can expect some honest, hard conversations. You can expect me to resist what she's, and tell me and teach me she tells me to get my butt out of my
energy costs which is to look. I'm really sorry, but. And we do a role play that I can tell you and we did it in person. We had to take a break after it was so intense, so you probably heard talk about doctors learner along, I know I talked about our when I talk about over an under functioning, as she taught me about that as well, She is one of the most respected voices in psychology in terms happiness, navigate the swamps and quicksands of difficult relationships. She's the author of twelve books, published in thirty five languages. They include New York Times by sellers, the dance of anger, the first book I I read about emotion and how our feelings, choices and thinking all in our act together and her latest book is. Why won't you apologize healing big, betrayals and everyday hurts? She did graduate work at the university of was Continent Madison, where she majored in psychology and east indian studies. She received her MA in educational psychology from teachers College at Columbia.
Phd in clinical psychology from the City University of New York she completed her pre actual internship at Mount lie on hospital in San Francisco and then moved to pick a cans the nineteenth Emmy to free to your post actual the programme at meetings then joined the staff and vinegar where she was a teacher and supervisor in the curl minting girl school of psychiatry for over two decades. After many left to pick up actually came here to Houston, lucky ass, she and Her- and Steve. His also psychologist move to Lawrence Kansas, where they currently have a private practice You grown sons, Matt and then there is an amazing writer who I am Harriet continues to lecture and consults nationally, while her psychotherapy practice remains at the heart of our work she's I've changed or for me her work change live shape my career here, it has a real stance on forgiveness. It's different than a lot of people, which is sometimes, forgiveness in her mind is not warranted, and so I
apologizing and forgiving, and what we're talking about in these lessons yet to take in a context, are you in a safe, healthy relationship where making mistakes and apologizing are applied how you grow and change and stretch. And if so, this is great, and sometimes I think here would say. You don't always have to forgive to be healthy, but where it's time to say, I'm sorry do we know how and do we know. Why do we know it works so let's do again to disperse episode wealth. Harriet talking about apologizing, how you do it Friday. Will part two, this part casket, the first two lessons that she teaches and then the Friday podcast Wool capital the next year yourselves in french buckle up. It's gonna be a bumpy ride back as Harriet says I'm sorry, if you love people and you
the tender relationships. They're, probably the two most important words. We are going to jump into one of the topics that I think, is probably one of us, misunderstood scary, for some and important topics that I've covered in my work with you and that's apologizing. So here's the thing when use been fifteen years studying vote Billy, courage, shame and empathy. You started here the same questions and the same struggles over and over again, and one of the biggest questions that I get is tell me about apologizing. Tell me about asking for an apology. Tell me what it takes to give a meaningful apology. I know how to do that. To be honest with you and I'm not great at it, and I don't know you, but I want to be better at it on the kind of person,
When someone is telling me something, I've done, that's possibly hurt them. I don't listen anything there saying after you hurt my feelings because on preparing my defence as their speaking and also when I try to ask for an apology, sometimes I often go straight to You were wrong: you're, a jerk. She's, the pigeon version of I actually usually say, and I need an apology from you right now that work either, and so there was only one person that came to my mind and that It learner address eight hour. Many years ago, the very first book and I've written about this, but the view first book I ever received that really invited me about myself and how I showed up in my life, was the dance of anger from Harriet and mom sent to me with a note that said, I think you'll like this or the least need it. I didn't read it it's ok with me and then finally, she said to me on cassette tape and I
into it and it actually changed my life because we're human we heard each other, we get hurt, and there is a way through that. But that way through depends on the ability to deliver and accept a powerful apology and that's what we're gonna do in this course strap yourself. Then we're gonna have some fun and we're gonna work with Harriet to try to understand what is the heart, of a heartfelt apology. Ok, let's get started lesson one, the profound power of the apology and Saint Leger here, I'm so glad him here too, I gotta to tell ya honestly. I've made a commitment to not fan girls the whole time. I just want to say just wants to get it out of my system. This is frickin Harriet learner and such an honour to be sitting here with you. I have to say and this is true- and I told a lot of people there, because I have bought the dance of anger for probably
everybody. I know I don't think I'd be married if it weren't for you honestly well what you ve taught. You just about myself and I want to talk about apologizing. Thank you remain, I'm so looking where to this me, ask you this question before get started. This is not an easy topic right It's really baldy to come out with a book on apologizing. Ah, this is important to you. It's very important to me tell me why it's important to you, because I Lived at the words, the two words, I'm sorry are the most important words in our language, where all connected, we all screw up where all imperfect human beings and for this reason, the need to give and receive apologies- will be with us until our very last.
Bread and when their done right, apology, savary healing, but when apologies are absent- for the sake south. It will compromise a relationship or can lead to the end of our relationship. So apologizing is its central to everything we hold dear to family, to marriage, to leadership, to two parenting, to our ability to love ourselves in love other All apologizing is at the heart of. It said this really matters I said in the introduction to the course this is the question. There are three or four topics had just come up in my career over
and over and over again and apologizing, is one of them. Let me ask you this before we get started because here's the thing I know this community were not afraid, a hard things. That's why most of you break people show up to begin with. Why are we afraid to talk about apologizing well. If you ask people well just say well, I know how to apologize or they'll say. I think it's a boring topic and I think it's very hard to talk about because, as will see later, it gets to the subjective defensiveness it gets to the subject of how hard it is when someone is criticising us to not be making our case is the other person's talking area. It gets to the issue of accountability and responsibility. Can we be accountable and responsible?
for the errors. We make an that's very tough stuff, because we all have a favoured image of ourselves and we want to see ourselves in a certain way. You know and we don't know, look at certain things like how we heard people how we operate at their expense, how we ve been insensitive, it's it's difficult. The universe has put this course in front of me for very specific reasons: so have you become like an expert apologize? Are you good at this well? Glad you ass a grenade because it's the author of the directive, anger and a new book and apologies I am a relationship experts, so I get all of my apologies exactly right. You might say perfectly so I moved through Whole relational world with perfect clarity and calm and wisdom in which much like a saint Tierra, highly evolve, send Buddhist
but actually I'm just kinda like oh, my God, issues on bullshitting me, I'm gonna run days now I like just gonna like just go right under this table. Really, I'm totally. Of course choosing apologizing is really difficult in one of the things like with steel, for example, my husband I'd like to apologise, for example my percent, like forty seven percent and I'm very good at apologizing, for how I work out my per cent and I also insisted Steve apologize for his person over the fifty three well. Yes, exactly as I calculated as hell, I calculate out his percentage airport. To blame, and since we don't always do this same math,
this clearly to the theatre of the absurd, but I do think having been putting my energy into apology for the past few years that I have gotten better at it, I have gotten better at it? I love that question because he voice I so Unix parent, shame anymore, because you study, shame like I wish it worked. Why you say that there are three really important gifts of a heartfelt apology. Tell me what those gifts are. Ok, first, it's a gift to the other person to give to the person that we heard. We all know this first hand when I receive an apology I feel soothed and calmed, and my left over resentment and anger and bitterness can melt away. So it's a gift to the herd party because it can release them
from obsessing hit that set of obsessive air and bitterness self righteousness right it also as a gift to the hurt party, because it allows them to feel safe and comforter ball in the relationship. Again, they can feel safe, knowing that their feelings affect us, their anger and pain. Affects us and that we are going to care about their feelings and listen and feel remorse and set things right love that peace, so it all allow me if I receive a heartfelt apology from gain this right, and I'm with your I'm a student here of it's in the apologizing. This is not a strong suit for me They have the words. I don't have a heartfelt part and so this is important for me. So the first gift is a somewhat has been hurt. I can let go
the resentment of self righteous. As the blame, the anger, the waking up three in the morning, obsessing gotta do this: how could she do gotten me? I'm gonna lose. You have said that in that see it right right too, and I have seen what they do. They, not yes, the second gift to me sounds like its emotional safety right, exactly headway to put it. I can be in this relationship again with you and know that my safety in this relationships also important to you right and that your pain in your feelings in your voice can affect me can reach What's a third gift, the third gift and were still in the first give, which is a gift to the other programmes that are going on in sub gifts within the gives talking about us, is that it
Allah dates that hurt party sense of reality that the whole hearted apology says to the hurt person I get it you're right. Your feelings makes sense screwed up validates your reality and that so important to people being So we all grew up of families where bad things happened and we were hurt and the important people in our life, like our parents or siblings, did I say to us: this is real. This is happening, it's not good for you. Your feelings makes sense, so it's very important that we hear that as adults. So that's the first gift, which is all of these gifts, to the hurt part
oh my God, said: that's a big honking gift to me as their party. So if you, if you do something that hurt me and you deliver a heartfelt apology to me- I want to go through with that. First gift. Is, It is, I can let go of the anger resentments, all that the kind of dark emotion I can let go of that I have, of emotional safety. My feelings matters. You your recognise and acknowledge them and Europe. Dating my reality, which is huge, huge right, because I know why so many times and apology, I hear people, I have said. Well, that's how I see it or I could say you know why poligized for your feelings makes sense, but their little exaggerated. You know you may to work on your sensitivity there there a little exaggerated so that I am
but that's not validating or heartfelt validates. My experiences rewrite okay, so first gasped big, what's the second gift for second gift is less obvious. It's a gift to the south. When I apologise to you it's a gift to myself, and I know it doesn't feel that way, because when we apologise are considerate we may feel small and vulnerable and I might have all kinds of fears. I might fear that you won't accept my apology, because we have no control now over how an apology will be received I have a fear that in saying I'm sorry, I'm going to unleash more anger and criticism, which often happens. You'll have a lot more. That tell me when I say I'm sorry about. Why should be even more sorry. Some people feel when I apologise that they are
losing something there giving up their edge to the other person in your somehow gonna use it against May this is somewhat more common in men than in women and, of course, and apologize him. We have to admit that were not perfect people that we screwed up and some of us don't wanna, see that so it doesn't feel like it's a gift to the south, but it's the greatest gift to the south, because in the long term we grow in maturity and self worth. I will grow in maturity and self worth when I can see myself objectively, I can oriented reality. I can take responsibility for operating at your expense. This is the basis of good self esteem rises. The base rate of cells,
respect. So to sum it up, although we may feel vulnerable and small and apologizing or I might feel they lose their respect, the other person parents tell me, I don't want no apologise to my kids. They want respect my authority, it's the opposite. I will be more respected with a good apology, so we actually grow in resilience in happiness in in maturity and integrity. We grow in these things. One heartfelt apology at a time, oh my ok, so that is so counter intuitive. But so true, I am thinking of a very specific example where I had to really show up and hear how bout something I choice I had made had hurt someone and I
for a really heartfelt apology and it was so vulnerable and says scary, say when it was over, and I was back at home, I felt so brave and I had so much respect for the fact that I was willing to do that right. It changed me in a fundamental way? Well, that's great. May, like it did, it change, I thought about myself, you can do this and you stand and firmer ground how ever the other person response. I mean that something we don't have. We have control awry apart. Russia heat up our do. Ok, maybe if we get smarter,
the after this will not only have control of our selves but, of course, about all these other the world at large. You heard of here fur, yes, I'd. Ok, what is the third gift of the apology? The really heartfelt apology, the third gift, is that the heartfelt apology is a gift to the relationship that relationships just can't function. If we don't trust that we will try to heal the disconnection after we, mess up so intimacy and being able to have a good relationship. They just rest on our ability to repair that hurt, because we will we will. Sap, especially in the long term, in touring relationship? Where were not always gonna? Be Airbus? South? Ok,
So, along with the power of a good apology, there's also the negative consequences of a bad apology. Right, tell me the negative consequences of a bad apology or pretty profound, because relationship suffer and people actually will cut. From each other, especially by the way, if it's an age family lifecycle, time caring for an elderly parents, appearance death, the funeral, the aftermath of death, and there is an injury and it's not repaired, someone is very sensitive and they say a really stupid thing and were nodded at our best at lifecycle events, even happy ones like marriages and it's not right. This is where I see people cut off. This is where I see sisters cut off and stop speed,
to each other say around the impending death or funeral up there mom, because someone has said something very insensitive or insulting and they have not tried to repair it and the other person is pretty unforgiving. Since often not because it's very anxious where we live and went up exactly exactly. So you know the cost of not apologizing or a bad apology at its worst would be totally cut off and at its best, there's like this little river of something wrong between you and I can be very subtle cause. We still love each other were friends, but there's something different that this thing has never. You ve never been able to see at a repair it. Even we're like mentioned? How many of us are relationships or that river flows through at me like that happened? Yes, like it's just that unspoken thing that we ve seen
old into it, not being what it could be, because we don't know how to get there right or the other person as she smack, and I see that thing not gonna get it right. How can I tell a story? Better, really bad apology. Bitches came to me while I guess they happened just recently and bad apology, the deed. The original injury is worse than no apology So I was at a reception at about six o clock at the university by where I live and I haven't eaten all day and I was very hungry and I get to the reception and there's this table with. She is and there was one thing of three and I have a weakness for soft cheese with hard cheese. I behave myself, but not with them. He's so I get there and You know admitted, I probably was improper in the amount of cheese
sitting I mean the brie like I was taking slices of pizza and a woman who is there who I've known for a long time, but I don't know her well in front of a whole group. People said to me: Harriet, you know there are other people here. There are other people who who would like that cheese. I felt really ugly and I stopped eating the cheese, but it was actually. An appropriate and she said it's a stirring lay, and there are these people around. I didn't know in some I knew So it just so happens that a couple of days later I ran into her head are local color and she came over to me and she said: I'm sorry, I made that comment and I shouldn't have made that comment. And, I said, holding the connection, I said. Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it very hard for people to say that it.
Powerful thing to say because in saying that I was saying yes, you know who you really should apologise, and I accept that because very often people will say hours nuts, I'm angry about tat. I you know so I said thank you for the apology. I really appreciate it holding the holding She then said: well, you know the reason- I apologise if I had been in your shoes eating that cheese- I mean, if I'd been you, I really would have wanted some one to tell me how to behave in, and she said you know, and especially because there were other people who had noticed them are also talking about it. I said really. I said what other people, who were those other people because the way nameless, faceless criticism the invisible are. Oh, please
all that shit with Harriet Logger, if only to tell you right. Quite so, I said well who, in a who are those people, and she said I remembered that important and she walked way. So she started out with an apology if she had just left it there saying I'm sorry. I made that comment. Instead, he went on to sort of further shame me, and not only that, like that it was inappropriate and if she had been me, she certainly would have wanted to be corrected for such behaviour, but there were other nameless, faceless people who are happily still talking about my cheese eating behavior I mean I think I read it. I paper you ve probably heard about it, so you know some apologies to it would be better if she has apologised at all. Ok. This is a good example of how to do it. I just add to its terrible, but no eight. This is what I,
This is a story I make up so I make up. If you will, her and said now. Really it's ok. Which most people do by the right word to worry about okay and I really was overboard on the brie, which was by the way, the debts beside the definite african business yeah exactly. But I think, if you would have said to her this morning oh my god, it's ok! I totally like I just I shouldn't have done that she was well. Alters the era, but when you sad because buildings I had done with my children,. Religiously, since they were old enough to offer, apologies and accept them is when you are not allowed in my house to say: that's, ok, you have to say thank you. I appreciate it. That means something to me and when Ellen as that with school, my daughter, whose a senior Highschool, when someone else him
play sorry about that, and she said, I appreciate your apology. That was a really hard thing for me. She said they almost like they're gonna be sick right. It's really interest. And by the way you want to know the number one reason for my research, the children do not apologise. I children learn not to apologize, is adults because their parents cannot say. Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it without all these add ons. Thank you for the appeal. Gee. I appreciated, but I really hope, you'll think a lot more about how you exclude deterrent rather- and I don't know if you really mean that apology and I dont know if its sincere, you know, maybe next time you can apologize before. I ask you to send the parent rather than tank. Thank you The apology goes on and on and the kid wants to stick their
fingers in their ears- and you know it sounds like a very simple thing- it is really hard for parents to say thank you for the apology, Appreciate it without the little add I want to put on like why I'll take you so long enough, and think twice about that must not happen again. Brilliant say it like. You really mean it. I would like you know you do apologize like you Paulding IRAN Psych. This demonstrate. Let me highway to gas as a gap, yeah. Now, if you want to teach your children to apologize, get that look me in the eye. You know say it like you mean it think about that more. You can have the conversation later. There are sure, ok, ok, we did that we did. The parenting peace had now has a mean area for it so important, because the people I've interviewed over the years who
apologize. When I'll talk to him. What scary a lot of times, I've heard that sometimes Wall poligized into my parents was always a mistake because they use it as a discipline. Mom but the other thing is they will say. I never saw my parents model where an apology look like with me or to each other right right. You know it is so important to model, could apologizing for your children, because if you can't apologize to them, why should they apologise to you? In my experience as a therapist, though in the parents, don't you know, kids look at their parents limitations and mistake and they think I'm gonna am gonna do that differently and they do. You now said: that's the number to reason why kids learned not to apologize the number one
he's in is that when they do apologize, something Ikey happens and the same with adult. Second marriage, like you know, our young people will tell me I don't want to apologize to. My wife could show just like you know, Lay it on me. More was against me later writer, right it'll unleash an ocean of more criticism, so it it's. It's tough to give the apology, despite all of the things that the receiver of the apology might IRAN and to be able to accept an apology, just with the words thank you for the apology and you can save the rest for another conversation, Eliza I'll, tell people. I think I got this either provocateurs from either yearbook or my therapist, which is wholeheartedly apologize, received with a whole heart
and some of the other work that needs to follow up. That's a different conversation. Sacha sink into the moment of the apology right are right, and to this as well we're going to start to put the less that hair. It's teaching us into practice by learning the nine essential ingredients to heartfelt apology. This is from here it's but why won't you apologize, the moment for me in the book where I got my big aha. I saw What I did well- and I saw what I did not do. Well, so we're gonna go through the nine and here's how we're gonna do it? I'm gonna read it huh We understand it that ok, ok, all right number, one, a true! policies does not hard right off the bat. Ok, a true apology does not include the word, but.
This, actually, I think, is the easiest to understand, because it's the most common apology error when say I'm sorry, but it that whatever follows that, but is gonna. A criticism, a justification or an excuse like Renee, I'm right Sorry that I forgot you birthday. I totally spaced it out, but it was a really busy time for me, everything was falling through the crowd. So once you say, I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter If what you say after the but is true, it will cancel out your apology, so drop But what did you say like I'm play sorry, but you will be an asshole as I said, in her power to act as one
favorite. Does it not as an hour what, if it's true it doesn't matter? Well, you can tell someone there, an asshole, but don't pretend it it's an apologetic, in other words yogurt that wage right. So if your intention is to give an apology, don't use the add on, but because it makes your apology fast. I'm really sorry Bernay that I spoke to you so harsh lay, but you were provoking me a little bit. The draft bill I can about. Ok, that's good drop, the butt and notice other people's butts as well, but I mean that in the correct yes, yes pretty sure that our folks will find you very proper. But here's the thing what I love that you sad is, if I want to say that to you
Wanna call out your behaviour in some way. You hurt me or showed up in some crappy way. That was not ok for me. Ah ha, that's ok, you're, saying that's! Ok, for me, too, that just don't call an apology. Right. Ok, to my mind, is blown our number one. Ok, a true apology? Never to a true apology keeps a focus on your actions and not on the other person's response. This is a very important one in its very difficult for people If I say to you were nay, I'm sorry that you felt hurt that I corrected your story, said the party. That is not an apology. I'm sorry you felt her, I don't know I'm pissed off his hearing that there's no accountability there be accountability, would be saying. I'm sorry I corrected use. Said the party. I know you don't like that it was out of line and I will not do it again actually have agreed,
example a from the workplace with a guy who was consulting with me, and he told me that at a meeting he had made an unfortunate joke about women having smaller brains. He made some kind of Smart S, comment that that his boss is a woman and after the meeting he said to her. I want to apologize. I'm sorry if you felt hurt by the stupid joke that I made and she said to him. You know my feelings are not that easily hurt and it was clear that she was irritated and he didn't understand. Why
that, rather than saying to her, I'm sorry that I made that stupid joke it was out of line with an appropriate. I won't do it again. He said I'm sorry. If you felt hurt by the joke is if her sensitivity or her over sensitivity might have been the problem. So it's very important when you apologize your apologizing, clearly unequivocal, lay for what you have said or done or not said or done, and not on the other person's feelings, you get it. Oh now I get it I get it. I have to take a moment. Ok,. Let me run some practice ones by air. Ok,. I'm sorry, you were offended by that. I dont feel apologize to. His. I don't know what you're apologizing for your college that it I'm offended. No, I.
I have a right to be offended. Why are you apologizing? Why don't you talk about Nay, the offensive thing that you said: that's my Rosa reaction to Athens so good, ok, I'm really sorry for what I said. I know the real area of sensitivity for you, oh god, I'm I give you a smack right felt. I've What say that to me? I know that you're really sensitive in that area. That happened to me. I put this in my. Why won't you apologize book where someone kept using the wrong photo of me? I had s Our current photo. He was using one from twenty years ago. Maybe he thought a younger licking photo would attract more participants and you know is really difficult because He will correct the photo any ended up. Saying well, I apologize I didn't realize that you are so sensitive about this and Harry it yet
You know, I really don't think the participants carer as much as you do about how you look and I was saying this is not the issue. The issue is, I want you to use the current photo that I supplied for you, but I felt so insulted. He turned it into I'm sorry that you're so sensitive about this final issue, Ethel shaming to me very shaming who is awful, okay, so number two as a true apology, keeps a focus on your actions, not on the other. Persons were spots right and feelings and feeling ok, number three. A good apology includes an offer of preparation or restitution that fits the situation. Absolutely. If I borrow your scarf hen, I lose it. It's not enough to save her name, really, sorry that I'd lost your scarf. I mean. Obviously I need to buy you a new scarf or offer to pay for the scar.
And that's a very simple example. I don't know if you relate to that one. Can you think of in an example where, You need to make a reparation nor yeah, I'm Joe I'm sure I can come up with is therefore I need to make an effort or someone asked it, but this is a good example that I'm gonna use it, because it's a hard thing in my life right now: there's a purse and who had a really good friendship, wealth and it was not very reciprocal, very connected, and since the kind of my platform invisibility has changed in the last ten times this person's reached out to me? Everyone has been a request to do something. For either ham or some one related to him or someone that knows him. That needs then you know so I never mind like sign it It's always what can you who do for me right and it's maybe it shouldn't hurt my feelings, I don't know now until now, gay like vulnerable talking about it, but it really
hurt my feelings because it makes me feel like you don't care about me, you care about what I can do for you, and so I don't they can be able to be back in deep connection without person. If that was not acknowledged and there were some amends made and also occur behavior so casually. How came out exactly have you been able to find the courage to tell the person what you just told us that it's hard for them that their asking some much because it makes you feel like things are out of balance and that they don't really care about you, is a person. Have you told them the school commercial break? I've you know no actually address accumulating all the offences eyes. I see so you can say you have done this twenty three times. I literally regulating them a numbering them. Well,
and what's your question, so I think the thing is so what would end up? So if you were that person, let's say- and I said to you: In particular, state right cause other rehearsed us, but I would say to you here's how I feel I had that how things start. Thank you start. Here's how I feel about the direction our relationship has taken over the last six months hurtful to me because I felt before then our relationship was very reciprocal. I was ever you, you were there for me and now I didn't feel like that any more. For me, I'm document of the last twenty two, times you ve taken. I won't say that authority. Let me add that I feel I say what I make up as every time you reach out to me recently is for me to do thing for you are now as soon as you said. Every time you ve lost me too, because I'm gonna think of a time when.
And we were in connection, and I wasn't asked for a favor snipe, like does big words right for none of its up I'll get defensive. Oh feels like after when you reach out its to ask me, do something not much for you, but for people who are coming she sang. Can you get paid to do this for asking to speak here? Can you get ready to sign as are done it thus here, and it's just hurting my feelings? Well, I wasn't aware at all, but it was turning your feelings and I'm sorry and I'm gonna. Think about it and I'm not gonna. Do that again they are not in line with a car so so limited. When I'm feeling you're feeling That's really kind and that's it after the right thing, but I'm not gonna be able. Basher over the head with my worst well, you're also going to be seeing whether the apology was heartfelt because it depends.
And what happens now, it's tolling depends on what happens the rise to. If I call you a mark gap- and I say Bernay, someone really important to me- wants you to speak it. Yes, you could do the apology means nothing so I don't think I could repair it in terms of repair and restitution, but I could show you through corrective action that I meant the apology. Let me give an example of this: were a number threaten her right, That apology includes an offer of reparation restitutions. So in this case- Preparation would really be that moving forward. His actions reflect his deep understanding of my heart and they are not about getting things from me right let me give you an example, more concretely reparation and repair of hackers. I just thought of something that was very painful for me, where I was at a psychiatric hospital over a number of decades and I
did a lot of publishing and I published very early and I felt undervalued, because I was very interested in the psychology women feminism had not yet come to this institute. Shin- and I felt in general ignored- and I went to complaining to my colleagues that I was not being valued, which is a very bad thing to do in the workplace. State are complaining that Unite argued, but I was young and and not, know any better. So anyway, something happened. That was enormously painful for me sometime later, which is that they compiled all of the publications of the staff and circulated to all of the staff, and I was left out my public,
were left out, or rather like one was mention, but I was really pretty devastated, so it took all my courage, but I went to the chief whatever and I said how terrible I felt. And I said you know, can you help me to understand? Is that all of my gal orally publications are on here and he was fabulous and it seem very heartfelt. He said I am so sorry I will find out who did this there's no use for it. You ve, publish more then every body he was very kind. I left his office feeling very good. I later over the next week or weeks, started feeling less good
and the reason that I felt less good has to do with reparation and restitution, which is that he never said two a new list: he never made. New, less with my publications, he never said to the group of the psychologists. You know we left hurried off we're still get a new less. We know that you now her publications are so valued, so it became empty because leaving me as a staff person off that list needed reparation, oh yeah, in front of the group. Do you and alley? I tell you, I told me understand right. I think this is really helpful. I get the scar for sure is I love someone umbrella lost centres, far right, it isn't. Even if she made almost falls under manners guys here. An agreement is even report and around the publication and also for me simple, I shared! Is it
operations. Sometimes it's going back in making, but it also it you cannot separate action and behaviour from heartfelt apology. Kenya right Tang. Ok, let's go number four, true apology does not overdo, ok, Well, we know that a true apology doesn't under do right like if, for example, I have really done something damaging to your really hurtful. You know I don't want I demanded do under. Do it like his. If I broke your coffee Karachi, I'm sorry you that mean that. But you can also overdue an apology, and there are two kinds of every doing. One is what you know. Women are we're so famous for, like my generation of women, like apologise for taking up oxygen in the room and were taught to feel guilty and responsible for everything we
guilty about leaving our work for children who are guilty about leaving their children for our work? We are guilty. If we didn't have work, we were guilty of. Sweden have children, we were guilty about feeling guilty, so we did everything we apologized for everything, and you know we still see this and it's not. Helpful to women, but oh I'm bernay, I'm so sorry did I'd like knock your coffee cup or oh, did you innocent in his chair, Sorry or oh I've been talking so much, I'm so sorry Bernay, I always say, hey always end up like so the talking much so it how you over poligized in this way it disrupts the flow of conversation, ended irritates, your friends ass. So if you're apologizing for failing to return, your friends tupperware, you know don't apologize like you front over her kitten or don't like tone overdo it, and it's free
because, if you're in over apologize here, it seems very self effacing, but it really makes everyone pay attention to you like if you're always over apologizing rather than my tongue, about what I want to talk about, how to say no, it's ok, perinatal area Renee, you know, so it so. Ok so we don't want to do that. There is a more serious kind of ever apologizing and its. Where I see it a lot between mothers in daughters were a daughter, gets the courage to confront her mother about something very painful in the past, and then the mother get so full of her own pay. And were more Syria MIKE item, I'm such a bad mother and end the mother stature. Cries. So then the daughter
Has it has to take care of the mother? So yes, you know if you're confronting me with something that I really hurt you. I want to show that I carry some of that pain, but it I overdo it. I am hijacking your sure. I'm hijacking your story for sure. So the more or less. If someone has the courage to confront you with their grief, don't act like they just rub your face and a plate of dog food now you can never say another word because you're such a bad person- and you realize that everything you do is wrong in your bad mother and down over to it in that way,. Is that clearly sets out the other. One is clear and it makes me crazy. Let me ask you this: why does that behind
yeah that's a behaviour that I'm starting to look into for some therapy decrease because it really makes me crazy. Why does that feel so passiveaggressive to me? I don't think of it as Passiveaggressive. I don't use that word. Very much. But I understand you're thinking of that word, because, if your confronting May that I I did something very hurtful and It turns out. You know that I'm so regretful and so remorseful that you feel
they are right. You feeling die away like you really hurt me and now I feel really badly. By would ever we call it it's not an apology anymore. It's not an apology, because it's an invitation that you should take care of me and focus on my pain. An apology serves only to calm ensued, the hurt party- it's not for me to turn the tables and invite you to take care of me because now I feel so, oh terrible and filled with guilt and remorse that you're gonna go home and worry. I am about me what about that illegal work less, but that this behaviour worthless role by this rock whack. You say to me: I know we talk about the fact that you're struggling with us. You're saying I really need you to give me an accurate assessment of winning gonna have is deliverable, wet ready because a lot of
we'll down the line counting on it right. Elisha say that ok story important to me that you could in accurate. I'm sorry, I'm sorry you're right, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry! I just I'm Sesar, Are you mad? I would think you're very mature so, but what happens when that over a kind of lying, so I can do anything right, you're right, I'm so sorry! Well, you know work situation My reaction would be no need. No need for the apology. What's important is that you're responsible at this, because in the past have been too episodes where you haven't got things in time so it's like. I feel that my message, which has to do with your being accountable and responsible, is getting. This is a work system that it's getting turned into a set of emotional
I don't know what I'm sorry I does a day on. I would understand target over to you. Don't need to apologize. My point is Thirdly, importantly, you get it done by this stage it. Very helpful, because I here I mean I work with a lot of leaders who say: he'll get through feedback and no trying to be no, not emotional, does very tax free bar. I, the People's Europe, profoundly apologizing apologizing, and then they just stop all the feedback and stop talking about the issue and start taking care of the person exactly and that's the mistake of their leader because the person in charge needs to say You know this is not a combination or anything. Let's just go through this sad. It yeah helpful. Ok, ok, so now we're gonna go to essential ingredient number five. I feel, like you put this in there just to piss me off. Oh, I did Bernay. I really hate this one. Ok, that's true apology doesn't
caught up in whose more to blame are who started it. You apologize for your part of the problem, even if the other person can't see their part right. This is the hardest one for me, because I feel that I am less than fifty percent of blame that the ESA person should apologise first because their more to blame and that I don't feel like apologizing they haven't apologize, but by the way you know it is a recipe for relationship failure to wait for the other person to change first to wait for the other person to apologize first. So this is a very hard one. For me I mean I could give many examples: trivial and serious. You wanna trivial one. Gas is actually I'm not on board you're. Not why not you not import casino
Did you know I, like I get what you're saying just calling? Ok, maybe this again a true apology does not get caught up in whose more to blame or who started it. You apologize for your part of the problem, even if the other person can't see their part. Ok, I'm we give you an example. That's actually failure is just like my problem about this and it's a stupid example, but its very common silly okay, so this is with my husband city, so he comes home from the grid, restore with five totally right bananas. I immediately meant an apology, they're just two of us in the house. I don't need a lot of bananas had been like bananas, this meat Three of them are going to end up in the cap has been. We have talked about this banana thing before so I'm angry demands an appeal and when he thus and apologize for bringing home these five totally right bananas, I
in a bad mood. I was having a low self esteem day to which I respond by getting critical. So I wanted him like a trial attorney. You know like how can he bring, five, overly, not overly, but totally down right banana knowing united their bit. Then, when I, when he Stilton apologize. I said in a what kind of person like what kind of person I say to Steve. That's in care about letting food wrought in a world where people are going hungry and package. Then need I go on from there, so he gets defensive. Surprise surprise. He tells May I should do the shopping myself. If I'm going to criticise how he does it, I get furious guess why am I suddenly the bad guy? I would never come home with five ITALY right Bananas right, which makes me the better person, have not the more highly developed world.
Listen, so you know I argue with him and then I stamp off and no one wants to apologise because, as you know in this gets it at this month, I don't want no apologise, because I feel like he's making me the bad guy when he did the wrong thing. I mean he came home with five, The man is at the same level of rightness. What's right, waiters handed either in leisure, negative and Anna that Brad, I doubt whether make banana bread the way. I added that at the end of my demand for an apology. I said what's wrong with you by the way, what's wrong with you at the four words that will drive any conversation downhill when I said what's wrong with you, then he said you know, then he said you could do the shopping yourself up, but I'm not gonna apologise because he started it and he spent the wrong thing and we ve talked about this banana. Think so he's I tat. He should power ass.
And there's no way he's gonna apologize when I leaped from how many bananas are gonna end up in the compass been I led to you know that is not a good person like what kind of person does such a thing really? What kind of person of our alike stuck in this thing because I think he started it and he feels that I have been absolutely awful and ridiculous here he's not get to know it's him. Apologize towards a solution. Well, the solution is perceived to apologize, now we're onto something now I will make sense tat all really do this last, for my husband's d got exactly so since Steve was not a good and a person to apologize, I eventually come
and I went to him, and I said, I'm really sorry did. I ever reacted to this five right. Bananas. And that's all I wanted to say, but don't do it again right jerk, but I just said: I'm really sorry for what he sang him. He said to bad time new apologise, but I left it at that. I felt in thinking I then that I had a bit over reacted to the bananas, but that happens. A lot
in early May, I add up every day, kings go from zero to two hundred and then each person is mad and once the other to apologize. So this rule means apologize first for the part that you can agree with, even if it's only five percent do the right thing by a stand up citizen in their relationship. If you apologize for your part, First, either had smaller. I really want you to know this, and then they in turn, don't apologize. Can you were tractor earlier parliament can you, I guess you could you could say I take my apology back sincere being such a jerk and I won't apologize. You can. Since we are in in this difficult subject,.
Learning about being our best cell, he asked in a relationship you would not then take your apology back in a colleague of mine has a great thing. She says to couples. She says it's just when the other person as being the biggest jerk, that your car The pan to be your best south, so even though I knew slavers being the bigger chirk with his five ripe hennis, I come down and to want to be my best self and I apologized ok, I'm gonna have to work on five yeah. It's not America like. I could give my banana lecture later to him. That's ok, yeah. Not an apology right, not enumerate all your powder keg coroner right, ok, that's hard, and and then he's working on how really hard time. With this with me, verse. Six, a true apology:
requires that you do your best to avoid a repeat performance, that's an obvious one! Yeah! You know that an apology is not gonna have meaning if you continue with that better than the other right, and that can be very, very tough because, for example, a thumb apologizing to you for being so distant, but I'm a distant sir. It's very hard to modify that or from apologizing. To you for being a pursuer incentive, hovering and being a set of Boston. The delegates, but then has to look over it's hard to modify these habitual styles. But as we ve talked about before an apology has no meaning if you're repeated What year Behaviour College per exactly seven, a true apology should not serve to silence another person,
an example. I said, I'm sorry ten times was not bring it up anymore right exactly I hear that a lot, for example in my work, is a therapist around infidelity where, for example, he says I have told you, I'm sorry over and over again and you keep bringing it up. Are you gonna punish me forever, and but this is, I know, I'm just gonna keep punishing you until I stop hurt it. That would be a very good thing too, I came up with that. I hope you don't have to use an outmoded. I get the same right, but very
often. We do use an apology to silence people so often we use it to get out of a conversation. In fact, there is a joke among men. The joke is that, let me let me try to remember- I actually heard at first in Spanish, so this must be a cross cultural issue in this joke, where the joke is that if the man should always have the last word Third in any argument or fight, and the last word should be I'm sorry. I was wrong. You are right, dear something like that. I mean it's not really funny choke bedded, it has in it. What we're talking about that the woman said difficulty deal with, is she's gonna overtook it so much fit. The man is told just a passage eyes like to say unsuccessfully, around shut the hell up.
Or a dear I'm really sorry, I'm sorry and that you're really saying that, because you don't wanna lesson rather than saying what the men might need to say because many women do of attack things you now are over criticise that he might say you know. I really want to hear your criticism, but unfeeling flooded. So let's find another time to talk about it, and I want you to bring it up with respect and not like I'm a big chirk, but I can't talk about it right now and not in this way, but instead it's easier to say: I'm really! Sorry, I'm sorry did I complicate that.
Didn't andreasen painfully close, ok ate a true apology should not be offered to make you feel better if it risk making the hurt party feel worse. All apologies are not welcome right. It's not an apology. If Europe holiday, I sing because you need to heal, you need to lower your guilt question or your working, the steps you know in a but the other person really does not want to see you and doesn't want to hear from you and that's what needs to be respected and apologies not for you. It's not to help soothe you. It's not to lower your guilt question. If I've said to you, let's say where bore you know boyfriend and girlfriend, and you were my boyfriend and I'm breaking up with you, and I am saying to you and you having a hard time hearing it. It is
over and at this point in time I need space and I do not want to hear from you but you're feeling so anxious to earth. You know wanting to send me emails of apology and flowers and slip. No, it's under my door now The early someone really doesn't want to hear from now a respectful, respectful, and that includes not apologise in explaining herself and saying you're. So sorry when the The person really doesn't want to hear you now, I'm gonna go back less than one only talks about the three gifts of the apology. I can't decide whether its raising I rather its pissing me off. I cannot get over how much apologising for the apologize. Her is about self respect and integrity. It is not about what you get back right. It's about do
they're right, damn thing right and the right thing. If someone says riled contact or I don't wanna- is respecting no contacts. Exact, All right last why this should be like kindergarten curricula across the world. Ok, the apology she I made you again last one number I needed to this last. You do the last one. Let me do the Latin barely make it a true apology. Does not ask the herd party to do anything not even to forgive not even to forgive. Ok, I wanna take the figure part offer a second and just go before we even talk about forget a true heartfelt apology. Does ask the hurt party to do anything. So what about this? I apologize. I may that should come on we're getting ready for dinner tonight. It was an insensitive and it wasn't thoughtful
let's go to dinner, get ready. Well, I would like you to leave a little more space, because I felt I don't even have time to react. Tear apology. I felt you just wanted to go to dinner. Right, so you want it. You did that because he wanted to go to dinner. So I'm not gonna go to dinner with you when you have to do better light for ten other expecting us legislation now that you will actually I make it depends. You know I'd right for me. The mature thing might be that I'll talk with you about that later. I know we're gonna go to dinner. So I apologise to get the hurt person to do something. Well, for example, when I apologized to Steve for over reacting to the five ripe bananas, I really wanted him to say that
yeah, you overreacted, but I made a stupid mistaken. Won't. Do it again. I wanted an apology that ours, rice, ample of of wanting something which you click set up, is a prerequisite. And your mom. You can set it up in your heart, for example, when we give an apology, of course we would like forgiveness. We want the letter sent to forgive us. An apology is not a bargaining tool for which we get something back, like forgiveness, very commonly. If I apologise to you and then I too quickly do forgive me bernay, do you forgive me, you don't have time, I'm cutting
process short to sit with it and to see whether you have some leftover, anger or pain. So you know that it's a hardware to that. A true apologies doesn't asked for anything for oneself. Not in that corner of apology right, I, like your term corner of apology. An apology is not an end to the conversation. That's what's huge. An apology is what d intensifies the situation so that two people can move forward and we will
have room for further conversations- and you know it really dr9 home for me cuz, I kind of get the forgiveness peace. I get that I can apologize, it's important for me to apologize and disconnect forgiveness from that that I just need to apologize with a forgiveness is coming or not the part. That really is hard for me that I think I actually do some time is when you said college. Rising is not a bargaining tool, because sometimes I think I apologize to get some shit We need to get done like I'm sorry, so that we can do this. I'm bargaining like I will apologise if in turn, you will get back to normal, so we can go the movies. Are you
get back to normal. So we can do this right as opposed to Saint I'm apologizing for true heartfelt reasons. Regardless of what happens next right and there can be both- you can give a heartfelt apology and of course you can also feel I really Wanna de intensify the situation so that we can move forward, go to the movies and not be stuck on this, so one one can do both, but in the purity of being in the apology corner, you know one doesn't ask for anything: it's a bad give it's not your intention. Intention, for the apology is not to get something you want right. Can a heartfelt apologies at true: it's not your primary into such an average a dry. So I could say I really apologize for making that critical remark on we're getting ready, Harriet rise. Hurtful
right exactly and then I could say I hope we can move through this and find a way to get out and likes if it could be fun right absolute. But if we can't, I understand that to write abso, it's good bernay, wow I can teach me yeah, but you know that really was because I just got it yeah ok relate. We have to take a break because I want to teach the audience proper banana Let me say that this is about. I've tried to teach Steve and all of you I miss Garth the price of admission. I want to tell you what I do and I buy bananas, five bananas. I take them off different like banana bunch, So once canoe, I can eat tomorrow for breakfast and then the other I figure out how they're going to ripen allied pull them off.
Stem I've side. The ways if not on ethical- this is not like a wrong thing to do- is to buy them in the bunch. So this is like an extra thing I would like to tee. I say you have the nine greater challenges of your life and equipment, real on bananas and will take the banana tutorial run like the wind. This is so good because you know that this makes me excited about this, and this is probably really selfish and somewhat maybe sought and makes the excited about what I can do from our relationships, but who I can be yes now I can live in alignment with my values site. Exactly I hope you guys
as much out of that is. I did. I was worn out when we thought it the first time and I'm reinvigorated and recommitted I mean I just have to keep hearing this over and over it, wouldn't when I'm learning it unless I get it, I'm gonna do it like this for ever and then I'm listening to it now again and I'm thinking and talk about the backslide, woe part two will be this Friday, so get ready for that stay tuned lobby, how many a couple days do some deep breathing between now and then we got this. Again, I want to thank Cliff BAR and company the family, We own makers of Cliff Barcelona and clear Kids bars sponsoring this in helping us get this episode to you. Free of cost, really appreciate it. You can find out more about Cliff bar at Cliff bar dot com, and you can look for their products at your local and online grocers.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-25.