Hey guys today we have a special bonus episode for you. Last weekend the up and vanished team, and I flew to Indianapolis for the first annual crime convent crime com is kind of like COMECON are dragging con, except where it's all about true prime I was joined by over two dozen pillow pie, castors and popular guest speakers like Nancy Grace and even the prosecutor and lead detective from Stephen Avery case from the Netflix documentary making a murderer at the chance to meet some of the fans up and vanished face to face here are some of the highlights Europe, was setting up our booth and elsewhere to say hello to chasms Kathy, whether your I ain't hurriedly, I'm good on waking up. I have coffee, so we set up the booth here, grandpa and

last of all around us looking forward to Wonderful time here surely been incredible this right. The second is that, as far as I am really great world, yet when I heard that somebody actually stood. I've had an opinion. Was it had become the victim and not just trying to play both sides, and we knew for my friend that listens. She taxi mean she's like well pain and sassy in this doesn't like. I know I went back and I am trying to play the victim, like all I was put in this horrible situation and could see was put in this horrible situation and liking says twenty one years old. You, though, right from Robert Goebbels Report, phenomenal,

but more than I imagine I didn't imagine the esprit de corps. Amongst that true crime fans. We don't know each other, but still you get the same room. You got this thing in In that you share and it's like a little Bonn, saw so far so good, an eminent phenomenal one open, vanished cereal thinking, sideways just subscribed to smaller and I'm excited about them now. Would you be more or less rapidly worth of both? We and I was already a system that is wrong,

The aim of DNA on day two of crime con Maurice Gawain, Philip Holloway and myself. A q and a session with alive audience to hear that next, after a quick from one of our sponsors. Yeah yeah It's that time of year, again time to set new goals and resolutions that are easy to make, but their harder to stick to an audible? We,

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Audible, dot com, slash up or text. You p two five hundred five hundred again, that's audible, dot com, slash you p, or tax up to five hundred five hundred any chance. Burke or any of the family members. The mother will get any of the reward money. I know you talked about it a little bit and when the podcast can you speak that at all I mean Secondly, a chance technically the purse who brings information the Tipp, the help all this thing is eligible for their money. So, if her it is true, then, I think, would be her mother who would get the money, but I have text messages from Boeing

friend, and he can firms that, when Brook Talk, through the GB. I they too her that she would get there or money vessels? What boat told his friend wondering what was going through your mind, pain when your hearing Brook explaining how bogus What anybody would do in that situation just so violent and horrible- is actual nessus, because it's been so many years I don't know why it wasn't more disturbing. I guess to her. Yeah. I mean I thought the same thing, those she was so numb to the whole idea that bow burned someone's body and was just talking up to a bad decision that he may one time, but it wasn't one decision that he made that caused all this to get

to me burned her body for days. There was like just press a button and I shouldn't press the button. This was a huge thing that most people in the world door. Ever do so to try talking, to one bad decision he made as a kid. In that case, to do that. It has off honestly and in that showed a little bit in the park ass. I got my backlash. For you no talk in the I did too, but I would have got in Well, I'm not a backlash. If I just sat there and said man, no ma am me. Kids, don't do that? I don't know any kids, you do that so She didn't understand what she was telling me. Sell me on this narrative that he's felt guilty all these years, but is one will decision? Please one interview. She she had him sitting out there in the pecan orchard for six weeks in his truck, because if that remorse and another interview. She said it was a week.

That was gonna, be my question: do you think BO is more involved, then he's come mean to be mean. Can potentially he have done it and do Ryan and confessing. I'll just say that I think is very strange that he doesn't have answers for the only important questions here. Answers for everything else. It doesn't really even matter at this point a person keys were put in the dumpster was less important. Now that we think we know what happened in this, on forever anyways, but why does he not know what happened when Ryan got into her house? If Ryan both that he used a credit card to get in your house in the press. Give him time, though, that story. So what is it? I use a car to get into a house, then what happened? How do you know No, the internet story arena not ask what happens next but also no with so much confidence that Ryan killed. Her be don't know how or why is suspicious to me don't know the answer to those questions. There's a reason why

is now an answer to those questions he does have an answer to that answer either makes him look bad as in he know, What Ryan did, and it was an awful thing, and it makes him look like a worse person for having gone along with this, so minimizes role or he is more involve like you're saying or both like us, as their claiming that they soaked or an oil or pour oil on her to burn her, I'm their nineteen. At the time young right? Twenty one? twenty ok. How does a twenty one year old know this average person there just kids, How do they know that you'll be the kids who have parties with huge fires out in the peak on Orchard, Emmy. Aren't you from that area to desist

what you did well, not everything, but we ve got all the other states arena services. Thankfully Rome most of it, I grew up in intestine, which is this a fifteen minute, DR maybe twenty from Mozilla. I cease to be a cop part time in those syllables way before this happened. But it say rural areas very rule in what I do. It was a completely dry county. No alcohol can be purchased ever have to drive to the county line. If you wanted to buy a beer glass of wine or a bottle of liquor, anyting, but the place We have parties was out in some fields somewhere, and it was maybe a pasture, or you know we had our own piquant orchard, that if there was gonna, be a fight everybody Highschool whereby would know about it in advance, and so you don't know where exactly to go in that he can't orchard to watch the fight and drink beer, whatever the cost. So it's

a place, it's it's part of the state. That's very angry. Draw so there's a lot of farmland and in other places to go. I went back for high school reunion. A few years ago and my wife was with me- and she was amazed that the first thing that we did the first item on the agenda was to go out to a field somewhere and have a big party and we did that it was like just to relive old times, said the difference. This was we were all old enough to be doing the things that we were doing and the local sheriff was in attendance because he was married to one of my classmates, but we went back to in the middle of nowhere and had drinks because it was what we used to do. As an ethical question as a podcast or in your role when you get the Tipp about the body or pass whole body under the house in you decided to go out Paul and investigate it yourself. Did you call that dilemma should I or

d I or is this in my room, to do it. Yes, now I'd this whole thing is ethical dilemma: there's no written rules for me to follow to always I'm doing the right thing or not. With that example, I get it to search underneath this house. The first thing I'm thinking is, should I go here? Should I do this and when I found out that it's happening with their me pretty much that this neighbors going go, do it, then, do it. So I was there with the property owner and the neighbour, so I wasn't like trespassing on someone's property in searching for something. I was essentially just helping the owner of this house, see if there's anything underneath his house, and I have been told that the GPA had already been here so chances. I wouldn't funny thing anyway, so all those things and can make the best decision ends. I want We trust that, and you know who to trust the gb I early on they didn't summit. They trusted me. So

I didn't know what happens in a light. They didn't know what happened either. So wasn't gonna rely on them to solve it. Gonna keep them out of the loop. If I found something I was going to share it with them first, but I Gonna just pass the ball to that b, I with a higher in assume that This will get sought. They ve done that for eleven years and nothing happened. Survivors Again, I wouldn't be serving the thing, and you may just as sir. That's where I think of it. If any of you believed that there might be further charges for other people who it seems blatantly obvious to me new at least some of what happens, but never at any rate, is definitely people who knew this and didn't. We think about it, but they're not gonna, be charged with anything rifle luggage,

depends on what they did: there's no statute of limitations or murder. So if someone else was involved in a murderer. They could still be prosecuted if there is sufficient evidence to bring it, but I think, The broader point that you may we sat around yesterday what is happening and round some of these ideas and Personally, in my opinion, I believe that the official narrative. If you will the we're getting by way of the arrest warrant and the charging documents later in the indictment is what happened it. Very well be I could be wrong and I'm sure people call me out of it, but I've said all along this doesn't make sense where they saved your charge. I don't buy into the This was a botched bert. Are we going wrong kind of theory? I think there was something much more sinister going on and if but exists that you know says that some other person could have been involved in her murder or anything like that.

Gathered absolutely could be charges and should be. But if it's something like, short of murder most everything else has a statute of limitations. So if someone else- was involved in helping destroy evidence there then, these were not aware of it ever but they now found out about it. This they're not going to be able to do anything because the statute limitations, Narrative is, is accurate and up was talking your last, not ours. Wonder in the farm, the gb I'd, who wrote the warrant if he cleared that we'll let the icy that first before they? the judges son, I don't think you did so. I just I don't believe it. The total narrative, no, if a true how untrue is it and what really? happens as it is slightly off or is the whole thing just wrong? Do you think that for coming I'm coming forward when she did. You think that was motivated by the money. From

reward or pressure that year, Pied cast being so public and sewed widely listened who was putting pressure on the family in general, I think There was a race to reward money and I were brought new about those involvement at least thirty days before she came forward the sea with the part, gas, and so many people talking and everything safe, really dont know the other people who nuth both told whatever so he was really taken a chance every day. There's, somebody else could come forward to the GPA the story, and if that happened, damages how to leave them out she gonna jump on it. I would see the reward money makes a lot of sense, especially for somebody who, coincidentally, it only needs that much money. To question why she was even Thinking about it at all mean is still a big risk to admit that did this heinous crime and hope that you do

go to jail and get this money. So someone like it me have encouraged them to do it, which is in ironic way, a good thing that there is reward money because I think it's a combination of maybe the pressure from the Pike Ass, keeping the story out their meets ease. Keep a secret when nobody else is talking about it. But when I everybody is talking about it, lot harder to keep a secret and you're probably talking about, but with who with bow in. If you for Some reason felt like that I cast or anybody else in the community or law enforcement, was maybe getting closer to you because new information surfacing and it's a popular topic The town again it maybe it's time for you to get your. Stop together and get that reward money before they get to you. First, something is kind of a combination of both those things you I can't say what certainty that the Pike Ass made him come for, but what did if it was just reward money that why not do at ten years ago?

Yeah. The new year is upon us, which resolutions do you plan to conquer and twenty twenty sticking to improve? Appertain, becoming more mindful and creating a healthier lifestyle through diet, exercise and, of course, improve sleep. The sleep number three hundred and sixty smart bed helps everyone get the proven quality sleep that will change their life. Use the sleep iq app to help create your routine sleep numbers, individual fit technology is simply amazing, go check out a sleep number store and see for yourself. Sleep number beds allow you to adjust on each side to set your ideal furnace comfort and support the sleep number three hundred and sixty smart bed senses your movements and automatically adjust, keep you sleeping comfortably throughout the whole night with sleep IQ technology inside the bed. It tracks how you're sleeping

give you personalized insights for your best sleep. Just cover proven quality sleep with a sleep number. Three hundred and sixty smart bed save one thousand dollars on a queen special edition, smart bed, now, just one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine during the January sale only going to sleep number store or sleepnumber dot com, cadence again go check out a sleep number store or visit sleepnumber dot com. Slash. Cadence so, in addition to pains natural ability to be able to tell a story which are so good at, I think that one of the great things about the podcast in particular is the differ respect is and professional backgrounds they worrisome

I'll bring to the table as well. So I was just curious really about how that all came about, and in particular Maurice. I know that you responded to that initial posts that pain, posted webs loose group and even as somebody here, crime con, I've never been to webs lose slaves. This curious do frequent regularly, or did somebody specifically flag that for you because of the subject matter, in Greece- Has- is really strange ability of always knowing what happens on the internet immediately. I'm pretty good my phone and stuff, but I What can a notification set up he's got, but he knows immediately and he called me any new put my number on that had already traced. It was like pain, make a package, but I e new immediately. So it's just props too. That, first of all, I don't know how you do that, but I didn't want to go into this thing alone. It wouldn't be so part to is a lot of things, dont know about one of them being the case

I didn't know all the details, but with help of Maurice I was able to make sense of it all like you said here, I want to tell a story. I wanted to story of me trying to solve this case, and I won. The ending to be solving that case. So whether I was a storyteller whenever you want to call me a journalist to come we're almost all those hats in a way were they I knew I was good, was maybe telling a story, but I had to get good at or better at all the other things. So I solicited the help of people like Phil, guy, not only me, but you eyes too, can assume that everybody is summaries, Gawain or a fillip Holloway. So it might be some of you in here, but to the regular layman, this irregular person- we don't know all those things is kind of why we listen to as well. So I don't want to

like. I knew everything either proud to say that I'd tones and these guys no way more than me, but I think that its color shows you that any regular person can pick up and try to solve something those people out there have a lot of knowledge. Who can you are, happy to give it to you as why they have it s why they learn and went to school and they all this stuff to help you do your thing is a total collaborative effort and I'm happy to have people are these eyes on board and help to shape this thing, I had never ever listen to apply ass, my life until after listen up and vanished and the reason I start listening to up and vanished was because being from the area a lot of friends in and contacts down there and I lived and tipped in Georgia in eighteen. Ninety nine, when Terror Grinstead was crowned. Mr now is action fraction law down there, so I remember when this disease Events occurred in of

put up with it whenever there was anything in the in the media about everything that someone wanted me to this podcast that exists about the things that caught my attention so start listening and then at the point there was suddenly gonna, be a court case in it now case and the rest will be made. And knowing that this podcast was probably about to turn course unexpectedly and get into some legal staff. That pain may not have the new to understand what men or well, life from the question and answer that people calling with legal questions- and it was almost happenstance somebody had, I think, told paint see me out mass and I need to try to see if I can be of any assistance. You don't hit me up on twitter alley. We follow each other on twitter right about the same time, and then there was some direct messaging go alone, and then you know that's gonna. How vaulted find that tweet or quick.

Because you? U message me into: I will well said the US without any help or the learning curve, if find enough information before the rest of the world tat would have been two years for the average person a meter suddenly were involved in this even before the rest, there's just so information, you dollar one time early on that, there's like two year learning curve on this case now, a man should we do in six months. But now you are right to sleep notes, Martin idea so notes. Whenever I found that tweet, it's very welcoming this is used to me glad you followed me, we should talk sometime bill, so I did for you first time you handed back and said absolutely wish you are you in South Georgia today, as was just about to message you, yes, we should hear this is a truly investigative pocket ass. This is not just to people with three people

brainstorming about what they think it happen a case I mean, like us, he had earlier heavenly podcast, have gone on our house, dig in indirect. We just don't you this was a real time. Investigative podcast, who was looking at people top people move one later another, you don't find that it in. So I think that our haste he started something here with you. So, while I agree that the Ryan and Bow definite killed terror, I don't the way that they didn't of their own volition. Is it p civil that maybe terrorist acts had a hand in getting them to do it because I d, agreed as a burglar alarm long. I believe there are there for a purpose. I don't think so. I don't think that in you terrorist, Ex boyfriends, hired kids to kill terror, it's easy to look it Brian Duke or both say why these kids, why this ends? I understand that part of it, but

This is more the store. We just don't know I said earlier on camera. What episode was, but I say was after reading those emails that you gave me that war between Sarah in Marcus, Harper, boyfriends mom, reading the emails the terror was. Writing. To me. It seems she was in a very bad emotional state. She soon vulnerable to you. I think, on the park at one time, no matter what I think what this really means is that there was born about this time, and I am almost certain that her vulnerability is relate to what happened to her, maybe she was in a spot where she wouldn't go. Do something different somebody or something What's going on, she didn't act like normal tear that night May, which is more than what we don't know. I think that she's vulnerable, that to me is to ironic is hardly, fathom these kids doing that, but we all know the full story. I don't think so. And went over there in the middle of the night on a whim broke into a house with a credit card in order.

Didn't notice, wearing loves, drop on the way out and then take his body and drive it Fitzgerald and bows truck, and no one sees anything. That's it's crazy, there's nothing to steal their mean nothing while that Why, then know that make and ass she was there. A mere car would be two weeks in the house and there was nothing there was its original house. One bed room didn't, have anything really valuable. I wouldn't think knotted the whole theft and burglary thing just doesn't ring true with me with that being so do you believe the scene of the murder was at the house or do you believe it was elsewhere? That's a tough one, the police are alleging that occurred in the house. It has been a lot of information and misinformation about what evidence was in the house that could lead to you to throw me early on that certain things that you found made. You think that a scumbag occurred in their struggle. A struggle occurred in their so still

possible, unless tier Let Ryan in the house, then I could see that we having at her house. Why would go into her house when our cars there I mean it. It's a tiny house. I've been there a couple times, as is very tiny, We totally here somebody at the door going in there. It is not the right is to rob it's not the place. You would get away with anything. Burglarize is the correct legal terms. Burglarize it see us why these guys here also she wasn't. She wasn't, I don't think she was asleep because she had long chandelier, ah ear rings on their mission still today and I don't think lay down on the bed and sleep with the urban on definitively say that it happened. In the house or out on the orchard to me. They're both still possibilities, but I think it's safe to say that things are more went into a house in just killed her or prized or I think that either she let somebody in then there was a struggle or she wit somewhere else. Then something happened so without.

Risk of sounding like I'm defending Ryan. What do you think chances are caused. My personal belief is that the rules are reverse and that he ended up bow just got the deal basically before he talked before Ryan could so my question would be here, speculation, but what if Ten. If you take the deal five ten years down, the road do think we're going Hereupon cast or something about a wrong vote. Conviction for Ryan will, if a headache little balls. They will look into it ten years down in the future You know we're starting the sworn podcast that I'm hosting that comes out this Wednesday, the fourteenth of Georgia, Gaston all subscribe to it, but That would be a good thing for sworn to do. If it turns out there was wrongful conviction in this case I think so surely we ironic running, is one of the topics that will get into was sworn there's no

way too? In my opinion, this prove what you just speculated about. I don't have access to them Obviously in the police, are releasing anything I've, never understood why law enforcement. In past years. Are not more forthcoming, but in this case there happens to be a court order that freedom and from doing it, court order that nobody involved in the case ever objected to it had they had to be them you got involved to sue basically Original gag order was that if there was a trial I was gonna, be in a closed. Courtroom you know if I'm a defense attorney and I've got a client charged with a crime, and the judge has his order. That says we're going to try them in secret. Is wholly hell about that, and I'm going to oppose, guy bore and you dont Wait only Atlanta journalists, situation in everybody else and could send their lawyers down there to find a balance can be my fine. I don't want my client prosecuted and closed courtroom so

this to so many things about this, that or odd and I've got a lot of reasons for the opinions. That I hold an shared all my opinions. Maybe I will at some point is this can be interesting to see what happens. Did you guys ever think for a second that terror? ran away. I didn't it just doesn't have and I had an expert early on, tell me that doesn't happen he couldn't be. If one is, really were somebody. A woman had ran away for ten plus years and was just living a good life over here is clearly a theory. You can't all the way out, but it doesn't make sense. Why would terror? through all this mess, because upset about something and make it look like she was there and staves this whole thing and then commit suicide or run away or something and one- and I talk to her friends.

They told me. The terror would scream from the rooftops fraught and tell you how she felt she wasn't it. Had a person who had run away at all would know. That's why I was here that she wasn't there pleasant. And on her financial stuff was scary We have been used all these years. You think that we will ever really find out the truth of what happened that night. Yes, I do. I didn't it first, Without a doubt, there is more to this story, but I mean when I say that is that more people knew about? This is big. Of them that terrorists pair It's our tears, mother, who passed away, never knew happened to her daughter, something in a want to look at the I cast in a negative light and be like you. Will you tom all these people in their everyday lives and that's true so very sensitive subjects, and I always think about what I say before I say it, but that woman When does somebody come in here and shake things up and not be afraid to

say something that to me how we got here? So if I were to stop right now and say man stuff here biscuit and kind of Harry and know what good is it going to do? This bout that anymore. We how to find out what happened at zero and we want the truth. The truth isn't Always prettier usually hurts nor what it is. I want to find that truth. The story is not over and I hoped when it is when Durban vanished story about Tear Grinstead and trying to find out what happened to her as over that we do all know what happened in nothing's left out. Later in the evening on day, two of crime, con Nancy Grace, invited me as a guest speaker on a I've panel discussion with herself in the lead, detective Stephen. Ray case? That's up next ever quickly, from one of our sponsors

This may today the lead investigator on the Stephen every case Tom Fast banner, also with me the creator of up and vanished Pain Lindsey we May veteran defence attorney Renee Rockwell out of the Atlanta jurisdiction and, of Course Alan, the Duke? however much I want Westhaven Avery, because at the launch of crime com, two thousand seventeen here in Indianapolis. We learn that there is a brand new high paid lawyer, well known, high profile that has written they. One thousand page plus defence brief claiming added the blue that Teresa Hall backs a boyfriend. Is they real killer ok, let me say something: that's not true state

Avery is the focus of Netflix, and I I want to make their mad at me, but they probably already are netflix making a martyr. Suggesting after thousands of ours, video owing they cobbled together to make it look Stephen Avery is innocent, and that is just killing me. What do you think her the hall backs family feel on about all this. Let's just protean, mom less suspend our disbelief if they ex boyfriend had killed her onstage in areas words to me. I interviewed him on tv when she was just missing. He told Stephen Avery Tole me Tereza Hornback king, He was auto savage yard business that day that she take the pictures and left guy. He told me that too, thanks, I was go and easy

I don't want to get up and leave at the beginning of the show you now at least ask some questions. So I asked you know what how blah blah blah blah then I get too might now. Let me understand something her car is found at the of your honor salvage lot. Hidden underline was it plywood and trees? What was it hidden? Automobile, good trees branch is pieces of wood. Because that's right am I wow. That's a coincidence that her car is found on your lot. He goes Youse framed, am I okay, so they found car fairly quickly. So the way you lot speech, because I looked it up is situated to get in your lot down. Have to pass your office. He goes. I am. I didn't you, Just tell me that you were in the office the whole day and you never saw anybody come in there only way in and out with me fast banned or delete

detective honesty every case, ok, which net Ex, has you no offense? Maybe we believe that the price the keeper set out to get the wrong person. Why? What joy is it and get the wrong person behind bars when the right person walking free and you have an innocent person behind bars? So tell me, how the whole thing went down Tom was initially on their data Holloway in two thousand five Stephen Avery makes a call to auto trader were Teresa. Were he caused the office auto trader? He asks audit. It would send out the same girl that had been there before he proved it's a different name beyond not his own, so we used a fake name when actually, his sisters name beyond a bar of yonder here her name for a ban. And she own that he allegedly is going to sell. What we later learners by really didn't want the advance all start thinking about it,

He also provides Therefore, number not his phone number and the people in auto trader said The one that took the car said he talk funny like he was trying to disguise a boys. She, tell whether it was a man or a woman. Why is he doing this dynamic before she comes this before she come in. In its true Tom that she did not want to go that she had been out there for audio trader before and she thought of his creepy. She felt There is creepy because had come to a door with a title on only what we know is that he she got there about two thirty quarter to three somewhere in the vicinity and tired just prior to their Stephen. Every makes the to phone calls to herself on, and use, a star sixty seven, why his his explanation was to find out where she was or to confirm whether she was coming. But she didn't answer. Why did he starts? Sixty sat right? I'm not sure I get my theory,

Yes, he was so worked up in anticipation of her being there guy, so he calls or twice as she picker she to dry knowledge? She did not take up. Ok, then what happened? What then she gets there She does her job takes picture. The van. And she's not seen again except by Bobby Darcy, his nephew. Lives right next door, but there's a very important information from a family member who Its third shifty gets up to go hunting. He looks out the window and he sees Teresa and take these, are taken pictures of his Van and then he sees Teresa walking too Stephen Avery trailer right next door. He goes back in the house gets his hunting stuff on he leaves and when he leaves Terry as cars. There entries is not around and Stephen Avery's not around and he leaves in hunting. Reported missing November third Thursday, this happened on October thirty, one staking.

Here he is getting grat about halfway HU the panel kin the process. Peter and Stephen every case strolled into the room on announced this was about to get interesting backfire. With this, new motion has been file trying to respond to that Well, it's not something I ever will respond to, and I don't think I probably should it's not the not something that the that I need It away and is obviously very troubling to see the kind of allegations that were made in, and I m sure you fucked what I'm sorry for coming in late, but happening in question to have there was the bullet found in the garage with their dna on it and a court today I see the nephew who now there's been a troubles with his. Conviction the cause and is now climbing at a low. I q, but some this test showed he had a medium range I q, and that he was tricked into giving a confession seem very smart though I may so,

What I believe is what brainwashing on several watching, how he's not smart? What does that mean? You can't kill somatic, I don't know, I think that it would make you think twice about his confession. I must say the things you gotta loss kill panel, no blackened I can tell what someone's smarter, not small. Ok, I'm sorry, but I don't see. There's a disclaimer in the constitution said. I know that you are not smart, can't be prosecuted, firmer and having a hold on. I call on you skill and someone did she die from a gunshot wound? Yes, There. She died from a gunshot wound. The of the phrase there were found in a fire there? Skeletal Sierra cranium pieces are friends. Anthropologist found to bullet entrance wounds in peace of those knows. Crean your bones, indicative of entry wounds of a bullet we found the bullets are a bullet in the garage. Don't know, that's exact bullet that went through

anything. Importantly, we never claimed that the bullet was recovered was one of the two that went through the skull probably not as know matter Brandons fact, because as those in the seven two cavern ballistics a bullet. Every was convicted, mostly on the forensic evidence That's why it likely would have remained inside and likely wouldn't have been the bullet that was recovered in the back? how we went through soft tissue, although a dna Patricia went on there, probably not the skull projectiles Nor did we ever claim that? Why would steal? involve bringing all. I don't know what. This is to you guys. What do you think? I'm on combating widely you think, that's confusing to me me too, you know hard to answer that question. Why would he involve you have to answer that question? Why would Stephen do that? You yeah. I think he wanted a partner and crime,

I think he wanted someone there and what issues Brendan maybe have anybody out, maybe boots wasn't available Why why not rendered? Because Brandon was was easily manipulated, and indeed, while I was convinced random was easily manipulated. Yes by him there could be paying Lindsey that he is easily manipulated. Buddy being only via email, Elaine Enforcement and Mass rape Teresa Hall back. Those can both be true If I can wait, another says the obvious How do you think you are all year, the prosecutor Brennan. Was there any helped? Those are the two. What are you down into lay terms those two elements of piping, a party to the crime, was he there entity help ok, and so in the Brendan Dashi prosecution which supper prosecution for every by the way must have you know their brandons,

it was never used in the seven every case never presented at all I never even even brought that in every was convicted, mostly on the forensic evidence which was really come, doing so. There wasn't any reality: Dinah bring and ass. Well, we we tried to make a deal with Brennan we try to and because of of Brandon fifth member rights against seven crimination. We either had good deal with him, given some kind of immunity which we weren't willing to do, and Brendan rejected our lastly offer we for hundred fifteen years in prison Was he beatin about three years from now by the way, and it wasn't Brendan who turned it down? Wasn't even his attorney returned on his grandfather, who arguments that you have to reject that please not so much because what it does to your case, but because it hurts Stevens case because it's gonna hurt his chances of a acquittal, and we want Brandon to go to

We want you to trial on. Screw intentional homicide even if you're convicted it's better off for Stephen if you do that, can you imagine a developmental disabled? Sixteen who needs the support of his family members, and the advice he gets is guys azure at an idle talk, talk about him being development aid to select disable, which he is which he may be. I think why are we talking about the raped dead girl? I'm telling you because it impact it. His decision making our aid. It wasn't because of his behavior, what he was convicted for what it is that in what was it not shell dashi involved himself in in the rape, I'm very convinced city. He convinced actually that that he ripped Teresa. He also carried her out to the garage participated and not

an active way but participated in her death. They threw her in the back of her own. They cargo area of her vehicle and before they decided together. That is burned. And seven decided, however, that it was better to burn her, then to put it in the pond there we're gonna, put her body in the pond, didn't think there enough water in the pond, and so they made a age. Decision, or at least a decision to burn, the body brandy was involved throughout their? Was he the moving force? No, what branded ass? You ve done this himself now he's a sixteen year old kid who likes playing video games. We ve got a lot of sympathy for Brendan Dashi, but after offering Brendan a fifteen year deal after he turned down and said prove it to trial, Our hands are tied the Nancy and we had nothing left at that point than to go to trial, to convict him of his involvement. I'll leave it up to the judge what the the sentence was going to be. We never thought he should get life in prison if you did

but we were still upset and- and today I want to talk very quickly to Lindsey before very runs to his next appearance pain. Is the creator are up in vanished and he first focused on the disappearance of beauty. Young lady and I really identified with her mother Terror Grinstead, which I Elaine largely because pain state on it in his podcast as has been cracked after many many years of being a cold case. Supine was that man was I knew that this case had struck a chord with. You really cannot connect with me when you share that story about being inside her house and it being we'll meet like an old doll dollhouse. Will you surprised about the arrest of two former students for he hath murder, a wise and I'll. Tell you why typically martyrs

commanded by somebody. You know that's in your clothes circle, that's your husband! as your ex that's your boyfriend and then it makes out Kay I did not say that I should have, but I did, How are they ever in the same place? I don't believe that Ryan Dupe just whenever to tears House one night on a way. Why are you suggesting they had a sex relationship now says the same thing with man? Isn't it now, It really is actually not don't even believe that really know what is it. I just want to know say there is a god how I turned around on me: you did. It was really mean you're me. Thank you. No man, don't like a nice woman, Why do I think I think that there are times in life when people collide? That's what I'm talking about, I think

that they problems relate say, may have gone into burglarize. They. There was a big shindig that night barbecue at harbour, is how she was a teacher or somebody connected with it of education enemies. Are there, Everybody knows everything in that town and or they went by and saw her car was gone wrong, but they had been in her car, because she was one of those innate freaks and he could tell that from inside of her house she was pushed back to forsake was pushed back. You know you get your car, your husband's men than their annesley and you fix it, and there was much at all. However, where the tires had been somewhere muddy, she would never have done that. That's just not her some wandering if they did not get hurt on the way home are getting out of her car or or burglar rising, and she came, and upon them, so they killed either way strange to me, you, I've changed

It would make more sense if it wasn't random, like in some people's minds. They had a relationship and she can't get a big secret like. Why would she want to kid from high school? I don't do you want a strange that what Phoebe eyes, alleging is that Ryan Duke who's been charged murder. They say that right, you want to tears house milliner, on Saturday night broke into a house with the intent to steal something and killed her with one hand I find it hard to believe wonders thing viable and tears house she's a school teacher, the paper image, Unfortunately, you really think I mean what what what what did you do before he started podcasting, nothing. You really think that like Ryan, dig sit around again wow. If idea, why can't I met by them I just do it, you're saying why you

Thank you would really broke them to tear Grinstead S house when that wasn't that much to stick yeah, I do why her house there's gonna, be here, maybe wanted to rape riper? I can just add to this discussion. You know that's why price? the figures are not required in homes. Satraps approve motive sometimes we don't know. The answer is, I don't know like that. Why do you know you're trying to take relatively crazy decisions, as people make and trying to Fitted into something that is, is like many I when you're investigating and you consider that right is a motive, pretty important investigation, Tom, but absolutely but Nepal. Security ever simplify a case and just ignore that somebody else may be involved just to get their conveying I'd even near ignoring this, because I have told you that I make their job easy under the social Science discussions or reasons is because that class of people You know, this is have a good degree.

Impulsivity about them. They don't think things through. That's why they're criminals, if it wasn't for tippit criminals, but if I attitude because they burn tears for several days and that's not alleged as something that one of the people and method to makes you wonder. How can you be stupid and smart? It wasn't that stupid if the gb I can for free. This episode was recorded at industrious, Atlanta Pont City market for two hundred and fifty dollars. Once office, rent visit, industrious office, dot com, Slash vanished and state tomb for episode. Twenty one coming this Monday June, nineteen right now thinking about those two little girls that were murdered in Delphi. Look. Small police force, everybody's rags them they're, trying you think they don't want to solve it? They need help. Like you, Mr Weber's, they need help. Dont dragged down, lift a mob help the police. Yes, I mean, I really think pain is par

we responsible for staying on that case and it getting cracked. I really we never let up like you, and these guys I mean I mean haven't netflix against you. I may whoa. I want the truth. I don't care. If the courthouse falls down, men up and vanished team, and I had an amazing time it crime gone and worth to meet some of you guys in person. If you miss them, crime on this year. Don't worry the second annual kind of it will be held in May of two thousand eighteen in NAM. Norton. I see myself up in Venice team will be in attendance and we love to see their to find out while crime com, just gonna crime, con dot, com,

today's episode was mixed, mastered by resonate recordings. If you want to improve the court, leave your podcast or sort of package of your own go to resonate recordings. Dot com get your first episode produced for free. This episode was required, an industrious Atlanta, Pont City market virtue, Fifty dollars off your first months office, rent visit industrious office, dot com, Slash vanished and state tomb for episode. Twenty one coming this Monday June nineteenth.