Take a deeper look at the evidence as experts discuss new developments in the case.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The chair, Grinstead case is alone. This case file in the history of Georgia. This means that there are for clues persons of interest red herrings general information than any their case in the whole state. As you follow my investigation, this We begins to make more sense. The cases littered with White Rabbits and just plain odd circumstances become increase. We harder to explain in today, episode Big into several different people, who are experts in their field of gains and more knowledge and insight. This case evidence yeah.
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today, only speaking with doctors, lessons were again. We spoke briefly asked episode, that's it continue this conversation about other elements of the case I gave him. The information? I could well, some of those emails terror sent I wanted No, his thoughts on everything. Does Egypt in a better direction. Let me in general this is looking at something like it email or a letter that somebody wrote, it is often called Bateman Analysis or document analysis, and this type of analysis is heavy on speculation, light on science. As a forensic psychologist, I try to be grounded in behavioral science, certainly as much as I can and saw a MAC and give a great deal of weight in two in depth. Statement. Analysis that the first thing you want to do is you have to take it at face value. I mean terror was obviously rejected, she's very angry at markets for dumping.
Therefore, an eighteen year old and, as I review all three of these females, it probably has nothing that the police been learned from speaking with all the parties. I dont really see anything that stands out here that that they didn't know a couple of things come to my mind as I try to understand your place. First was there more than one person involved in her disappearance and murder? I'm that's always possible, but generally speaking in a cold case like this, it's unlikely because most individuals can't keep their mouths shut. You know they can't. You talk any detective. The problem with most criminal defence, as they start talking and if you have more than one person the likelihood for someone to talk, is increased a great deal
Another thing that comes to mind as I review this place this. This is not different than many many cold cases and the police, in my view, very likely, believed it. I know who did this, but the problem is that, in order to bring a case, you have to be able to prove it lol, enforcement or the prosecutors really only have one chance at this, and so, if they bring a case against somebody who they think was involved in this, or did this and the evidence that were the proofs? Aren't there that's it
not even if more evidence or proof come later on their done. It's only. They only have a one page shot deal. I had a case a murder case. Very recently, there was called for twenty five years. The police always believed that they know who killed had this child and after twenty five years they brought the case because it's not that new evidence emerged, but the old evidence was viewed in a different way and they evaluated very differently. He was recently convicted last may and just send a couple months ago. The very interesting case of a mother killed her five year old son and right from the beginning. The police knew that she did this, but he couldn't bring it. So where did they wait for what was the final piece of evidence, while until it's a very involved in and really a very fascinating case, but what they did?
After the case was called for about twenty years there was a faint got. An enormous amount of publicity in New Jersey was a five year old child who was killed after twenty years. The anniversary of the child's tat, the newspaper that whole big article on it and as a result there were that came in to the prosecutor's office, all of the texts that came in God damn nowhere, but the new prosecutors, the people, a regionally work, the case of all since retired and the new prosecutors look at the evidence from a different perspective and the child was supposedly abducted from a carnival and when the body was found. Eleven months later was wrapped in a blanket your regional prosecutors and attacked. As I should say, the process be ritual package, never showed the blanket to the baby sitter up the of the child that the five year old with boys, babies that by at least three different people, they never show
that person shouted to the mother. Who is the ultimate, the who's, the motor urban about it? I never saw before they showed the blanket the baby centres and one of them had a visceral reaction, because she was very close to the five year old started, crying and shaking his blanket was very did think that very distinctive mark, like a metal weave that went through it, that only you know that you would definitely recognise, wasn't just like a blue, blanket and and and so yeah they brought the case and that she was convicted up. Also another important thing in my experience. When state mistakes are made, they occur very quickly and sometimes in the first half hour to fifteen.
How witnesses are interviewed, how their question, how evidence initially handled at me, mistakes in the investigation. Yes, yes, but very often happens very, very early in this case that I just referred to the home aside. The directive didn't in death take the case because initially, when is the missing child and so the juveniles, girl investigated the case that the homicide perspectives. So I don't know about this, your face with power, but very often mistakes are made early on I'm not at all surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if the police really believe they now have a good idea who dealt with the matter was just proving it We never reveal all of what they now seems like they're waiting on it. A dna match on that latex glove, but I feel, like that's, never come It can certainly happen. I haven't
the case of a warrant for conviction. The guy serve twenty three years in jail for killing two children, one involved banging nails into a little boys had as the method of killing and he was convicted, and eight was overturned after twenty three years on a more sophisticated Any analysis in this case also the body. So that certainly is a major factor as well, and even if somebody find the body, is your to have bombs, laughed and nothing, but contamination The case that I just work done with the conviction for twenty five years, the child was under water for eleven months and only bones were found in animals were involved and how they find the body they found
body, because a high school biology teacher was doing a nature height by himself. He was like a bird watcher into debt. The body was placed in a meadow and on a swamp and he saw sneaker any took them sneaker to the police thinking it ought to have a little boy sneaker, which is fairly new out the middle, the swamp, and it was sneaker of the little boy and saw the FBI, the train, the whole swamp and they found the bonds and the blanket and the blanket another. Another important thing with respect to investigations in this case that this case has been called for over ten years about eleven years. I guess what most people don't realize
is. The clearance rate for murder is just over sixty percent. Most people don't know that most people think all murders south, that's not true. Back in the nineteen sixty the clearance rate for murder was over ninety percent. When President Kennedy was president and affect the early sixties, the clearance rate for homicide was over. Ninety percent. Almost all homicides were cleared, will happen. Well, I mean there's been more advances. Yes, you would think that the homicide that the clearance rate would increase because we have more advances in technology. Dna hotspots plus clusters bore police per capita. And there were in the nineteen sixty. If you look at the clearance rate from uniform crime reports, it is ninety percent over ninety percent back in the early sixties and then by the seven. These I went to eighty percent by the eighties and went to seventy percent, and it goes about
reduces about ten percent every decade, so wise it going down. The other reason is going down. Is the type of murder is changing in our country back in the nineties sixties? If was the murder, it was a typical, enable murder spoke about last night if someone close to each other and a family or domestic dispute or two guys, an argument that, like a thing and those are very easy to clear, If a woman is killed, the likelihood it was her boyfriend is very high or husband, a man is murdered it. Likely it was an argument with some other guy today
in particular in the past thirty years. There's more third party killings, not just organised crime like the mafia, be have the gang people and you have the drug people and all these other things, and one is the third party killing it's very, very difficult. The clear, also, probably in a pair of ten to fifteen years, you have in gang pipe murders, you have intimidation of the citizens, and so many many individuals that know something about the murder are afraid. Forward because they're afraid you're gonna get. You know involved in some sort of retaliation with a gang members. This sort of thing deal it may be that the average person these days has more knowledge on how to get away with murder from watching tv shows and stopping the average person, I would not say, has more now: we gotta get away with the martyr. What I would say with in terms of the tv shows is, it affects the jury, In what way would you say Bobby?
Today you have jars coming into court who have heard and listen to and watched having shows on an inventory investigation but on your lawyers debating what reasonable doubt, as in the sort of thing and so on, You know everyone, the jurors. Today you have a lot of yours, that our crime scene, experts and junior lawyers and they bring that the jury box. You know judges a trader of what dear jurors the best they can, but its very, very difficult to undo what you have heard for so many years. For example, a judge will ask a potential juror. Will you listen to my explanation of the law, ass to what you think the lawyers now every potential,
because they, of course, how do you say judge? But when you hear from forecasts, fifteen twenty years, looking of lawyers on tv talking reasonable doubt what you can on. Learn that you can undo it becomes part of you. I had a case where, a jury harm the evidence was overwhelming and afterwards the judge talk to the jury, as judges do very often after murder. Trial is day. What did I said. What was the problem here and they said well, we thought he did it, but it wasn't beyond reasonable doubt: ok You know sometimes my uncle She had some jerk. I just want to demonstrate how smart they are winning. Interviewed afterwards by the media they will in our country and our constitution. The state has to prove up yonder that which is true, but it's more an attempt with some people to demonstrate their knowledge of the system and all tat sort of thing. I had a case
where they didn't use luminal. If you go to a classroom of average people at Saint, I asked my students this all the time how many people, the classroom, no aluminum, all his everybody raises their hand. Luminal is a spray that with law enforcement can use. That brings out whether blood They are not in this particular murder case. Procure stead of several hundred place said that the police didn't use luminal. What do you think the red stuff is coming out of the dead guy? It's blood, you don't have to use luminal off the road that red stuff coming out of the dead guy is blood reopen on tv. They do it wasn't a real of the news. Luminal likely there is proper
get turtle arab. They could never seen the blow with their own eyes the exactly exactly sub. What I just mentioned, we just lock my left governments, those our conviction rates that not that's about clearance, re clearance, right means cleared by a rest and that has dropped tremendously in met it now the conviction rate in many years, dixons the canoe. Rate. If you went back thirty years, is to be that ninety percent prosecutors wouldn't bring a case like they were absolutely sure they can get a conviction in many jurisdictions, The clearance rate is just over. Fifty percent, they can't get a conviction because of all of these different sorts of issues, whether
being a junior lawyer, a junior crimes investigator all sorts of other issues that may affect these things. Eating people in any way like society, is more supportive of a criminal offence. These days do like making a murderer and no shows like that. It's not about those sorts of things and a plaster wrongful convictions that some people will say. Well, you know we're making to state prove it that's the way the system was right and if they didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt, he shouldn't be convicted. What both well that's true, On the other hand, if your releasing of lot of people that killed, you got a lot of bad out there, you don't you dont, want you have to do it right. You really have to do these things right, either life and death major decisions, you dont want any wrong for conviction, because if you wrongfully convict an innocent person, the bad guys out their committing what
crimes. Seyffert you tear Grinstead case a prosecution can only happen. One time, that's correct exactly so mean even if they were to say hey, we think this guided and they bring a case against him and they find him not guilty. They couldn't later and say. Actually we think this guy did that's correct, double jeopardy. You can't it there's a prohibition against double jeopardy. You can try somebody for case twice once you have one shot, but do it. So that's why you have to be able to prove it and upright enough. You're, just gonna bring a case without the adequate proofs. There they prosecute this at first and they say: hey we take this guy, did it in the ticket a core and they find him not guilty Ten years later there like. Ok, maybe we were wrong. We think this guy did it. You can do that, but then the second guys The fences but more? The MIKE? I didn't do it the First Guy Data paper, the first guy did not. Do you guys know what they're doing credibility goes out the window it exactly exactly so these are very
difficult cases is the difficult case that you have it. It's been called for over ten years. It doesn't mean that it will never be solved. It very well maybe be solved my opinion just looking at the summit distances, the police probably have a very good idea of who they think did this, but you have to be, able to prove it, and so we don't t, really know what they have and will probably not gonna know until something happens, and again this can take twenty years. I've had these cases, the opera but it is just being a small town in we be one thing if it was a huge city and anybody could have done it, but you know you look at this case and you say you're, so this had to be someone. She knew there's always many people. We know that list of people, but we all know which one it is it's a real who done. It has almost always someone that they now, but sometimes it's not. You have to approach these investigations with an open mind
That is why we need an investigation, is very early on the sum of more force. Of example may have an idea, a theory of who did it, and you got to guard against doing that, because sometimes you'll look at evidence in a way to support your theory. And ignore evident that doesn't support it that human nature, everyone wants to do not have the insight into who actually did itself. That can be a mistaken and the best one. That's the biggest one of the biggest confusing ports about this whole cases that we have this information, but it's hard to peace. The model the other, to create in theory, or one time line with everything you know you have a fact over here. You have this over here and do some Alan Donnelly Fit together so either one of them or so of them. Have nothing to do with the case, exactly an anomaly that you don't know what you're facts are true or not exactly. Nature were let us hope. So
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One important thing daughter, such under pointed out with only is there a lack of incriminating evidence in this case, but they ve also volunteers body so two things missing, it seems almost possible to prosecute and convict somebody in this case, but is it really impossible but soon per second, that maybe will never find tears body and theirs. For a dna match on that latest glove anything else we could find that can help with the killer, I'm bars. I spoke with a man nickname is the no body guy, I'm not kidding For twelve years he was assistant United States attorney in the District of Columbia, prosecuted, several murder cases. They had no body If anyone knew the answer to this, it was going to be him. I'm my advice for twelve years I was a prosecutor in the: U S it he's office it from most of that twelve years I prosecuted homicides because
He sees a unique. U S! Attorney's office because DC doesn't have a district attorney like most jurisdictions. Do in D c. We do all of the local crime from shoplifting to hunt. Side as well as your more traditional. U S attorney type of charges like pop, corruption and large scale, narcotics cases and its also, the largest. U S, attorney's office in the country when I was there on back in probably about two thousand for two thousand five, a colleague. Mine- was leaving the homicide. Section engaged me occasion been investigate that wasn't no body murder case and in disease story at the time there has only been one other. Nobody case that ever going to trial. That was back in the early eighties. So I started looking into the case, and I was very interested in
The topic, because to me murder, is the ultimate time and nobody murder case is the ultimate martyr cage there has only been one in the history of the city kind of interested me. So I start looking into it and at the same time that I was actually investigating my case. Along with the detective, I started researching nobody cases in general, because I wanted to find out whether what the case law was lying there weren't we any examples in DC other than this one case. What the case law was like ass, the country a colleague of mine who had worked out nobody case. It ended up not going to trial. Near them out at a walk like a draft like maybe fifty or sixty nobody cases from across country when I remember the time thinking out at that seems like a pretty good number, fifty or sixty when I started looking into it, I found more and more cases and became
fascinating, because they didn't seem to be any collection of these types of cases, of this very specific and very rare type of murder case, and so I went on and tried my own case. Getting a conviction and the case, and I became more interested in these cases, and so I started collecting them on a website that I put up anonymously, while I was still with the Department of Justice gazetted feel like going troops in war, the bureaucratic hoops They had to jump through to do it. I just didn't use my name. I came up with the name that nobody guy, so you actually got a conviction with nobody. After the case- and I tried arm- was involving a defended name, the victim was named Marian FRY in peril, lost it and we gotta conviction on accurate back in January, two thousand and six.
And so I was in a really became interested after getting the conviction kind of covering more about these cases and then started thinking now. Maybe I can help other people who try this case, because I was learning arrogance but first time what sort of learn more about it. So without a body in a what strong evidence can represent. That is just as convincing the reason and nobody murder cases so difficult. It's because you don't have the mean piece of evidence, the body, if you a body in a murder case. It generally gives you how the martyr happened. Was the person shot when he strangled their poison, but that it also generally give you time. The murder happened. You can look at a body and say: ok, this matter, just now but in our girl or happened six hours ago for a day and a half ago. For four years ago or ten years ago, because all I've got left her bones and the thirteen
I guess you is where the martyr happened. Did it happen in somebody house, because the body sitting the house did happen and street like a lot of, voters. You know our drug related or beef related did it have You know in this in this park, did it happen a place, Well, you don't have a body, you have none of that evidence and I like in it too. If I'm a cop and my boss comes to means of hate, her We have a bank that was robbed in the city. I didn't see you gonna make it rod in the city. We don't know what bank it was looking a figure that out but you're running around from Pact a bank loan. Will you guys rob you guys rob will yet we arrive, went over thirteen Europe. You know you just do not have so much of it I'll information so no body keys, generally rely on what I call once three legs Store and three types of evidence
did you get in these types of cases? The number one is forensic evidence: dna finger, prints, hair and fibre evidence the second leg, the stores, what call, concession to friends and family the defence confess is to someone tells them about it and the number three a concession to the police. Ultimately, the defendant, confesses to the police, that's the mean type of evidence that you had an education, because in most of these kids, you don't have a witness to the murder. Sometimes you do, but fifty plus per cent of the cases are domestic related husband, joint wines. Boyfriend, killing verified in those types of murders, Eugene We don't have a witness to the bureau because they don T know in a relationship. Is those do people in it? happens in the spur of the moment and there's not. There is not really someone off their witness it, so those who elected us to
or what you look for in a nobody case, the most successful cases had three of them. In my case, I had all three about black really difficult cases. Dont have any of those, but most cases have one about three legs and that's how you actually make a successful prosecution was the strongest. You said a confession from either are obviously or somebody else who saw something or knew something in confession. Friend and famine more generally, the killer confesses to someone else. There are cases where witnesses, but that's a definite. Minority because you don't usually have someone else, their witness your case, We have your organised crime case or again or something like that, whether someone else who sought but most of the time you don't actually have another witness to it. So you can't rely on an eyewitness testimony when you don't have or find it highly unlikely that you're gonna get forensic evidence which occur now, our almost I guess, what eleven years out over eleven years out
then your next best chance is the so called. Defined in family. What did the killer say to other people or what did the killer do? That was suspicious that other people have picked up on. That's the next best scenario in the one after that, of course, is ultimately concession to the police on because, while looking a friend and family is- is good and help for a confession to the police is better for obvious, for obvious reasons is more believable when, when the police come forward and say yes, this person, you know confess to us also when you're eleven years out. It also makes it that much less likely that you're going to find body parts are pieces of the body, I'm too good evidence, you're talking about Georgia, temperate climate, I'm a body decomposes much more quickly in a template hot climate than it does say. If the case, when the last
it might a body, a body or body parts might last longer eleven years out, even though I counsel police in a nobody case, you still want to look for the body because any cases stronger, the body when you're eleven years out, realistically the chances finding the body in a place? That's gonna, be useful to you. It's just started again very, very unlikely, two or three years out are not so much a body can notwithstanding our doors for that type of time. But if you're on eleven years, it is highly likely. If you haven't found the body that you really take much time looking for the body must you're trying to confirm that you know the cure said he I put body here and there to try and fine clothes and things like tat- maybe Keith about something that last year significantly wander even further a body in this case or yet to determine a guess, the exact time that she could have been killed or murdered. But we Do you know is the last time that she was seen in the day that she was reported,
in that's helpful, because in a lot of nobody cases they start off is missing person. Cases in men it may not be reported to the police till some significant time later in the course of the police may not investigate right away and sometimes a detective whose treating them the person case well treated definitely than ever homicide case, it sounds, from a limited tracks. I now hear that you are able to much more put a certain time when she disappeared and probably was either abducted and murdered. At that exact, you no time. Within say in twelve out of the window or something like that and that obviously more helpful in terms of, placing the time in figuring. You know, maybe later people alibis and things like that, so that in advance that this case habit, but other cases me Were you dont know when the person that started the window of the missing is a week,
makes a little more difficult and challenging. Prosecuting can begin. Somebody without a body is obviously more difficult than with a body but statistically border. The chance well, what I will say is, if you go to my website, there's a table of cases that are going to trial about four hundred and seventy than is actually going to trial in the United States. Since the early eighteen hundred and jestingly the king fiction rate of those cases that went to trial, is about eighty nine said, which is quite a bit higher. Then just than normal murder cases that go to trial, that I seen a statistic that I need to verify: what about seventy one percent of murder, cases that go to trial, editing, conviction, theirs the reasons for that there are many, many more missing person cases, particularly missing, presumed dead. Then,
go to trial the cases that go to trial ten. Be the stronger cases for obvious reasons. The prosecutor doesn't want to take a leak. Nobody case to trial because the defence has an easy time saying we don't even know she's dead. Most of the victims of these cases are female. Other reason why I mentioned earlier fifty percent fifty one percent of the case and better nobody murder cases that go to trial, involve a domestic relationship between the two people, husband, you know: wife, boyfriend, girlfriend children, parent child, so that this aspect in those cases is often very obvious. New haven't missing wife. The number one aspect is the husband doesn't mean the husband did, of course, but that you know the percentages or that that's your needs us back in most of the time. That's who committed the murder as far as words of advice go for me. What should I be looking for.
You know the avenues that are gonna bear fruit or what I mentioned earlier, and that is people who her in people who knew your suspect what you don't necessarily know who you're suspected at this point. That's going to be your most productive avenue, to find out someone who knows something in his willing to talk. What scares me, what you often find in these cases is a longer time passes. Sometimes people think well it's hard to solve the case because more time has passed the best man if a fairly true, because sometimes say your suspect, is someone that someone else's gaining at that I'm in the person has suspicion that hey. Maybe this person was involved in her disappearance or murder, but I d in him, and I don't want to say anything about it. But now ten or eleven years later, I'm not getting him or maybe he's locked up
Maybe I realized this guy is actually a psycho and so time passing can actually help your case, because people become less fearful of the person they suspected and Bob WAR. Become feeling more guilty about it. Maybe they knew something back then they hope the police would find out about it. They know the police now haven't found out about it, no more willing to talk about it in a case, you don't have to answer governance, you're next best evidence is going to be people. What can people tell you about the facts of the case? That's right for a moment figuring out who might know something a person
There's been several things about this case. There really stand out to me that I can't We seem to wrap my head around specifically events of Monday morning October, twenty fourth, when the police rediscovered here was missing. With calling Miller again he's a professor of law the University of South Carolina knees so the host of the pack series undisclosed. I wanted to get his feedback on some of this general in any murder, investigation or missing persons case, who typically, are the first people to be interviewed or likely to be considered suspects as far as he would go to players? Yes, you are looking family members, friends and then a bit too. Extent, coworkers neighbours of course depends on the circumstances, the disappearance or the murder, but yeah really family, members and friends, and then expanding the circle a bit too coworkers neighbours. Then you look at any speech
the case you would say: what's the last location where person was seen it was it a particular bar or restaurant or a sporting event better than, of course, you would then go to that are the restaurant and you would seek to talk to the people who were the last people to have seen that personal life. If you have a point who found the body. That would definitely be someone who is highly suspect list if it should say parent who is calling in saying that their child, whether it or a minor hasn't been seen, for a few days now, of course, the factors the familiar link will mean that the be investigated, but that would be a bit different in terms of them being a suspect. I've learned that First person on the scene at terrorists house that morning she was reported missing was the neighbour name Joe Party here, and he had a spear he to her house and let himself inside, and he actually called Billy Hancock, the police chief on his cell phone, and he was also the first person to spot the later
love. Does this stick out to you at all events of listening to your podcast in researching a bit about the case on line minor standing? Is that Joe and his wife were short of an old couple who were neighbors and very protective terror, and I think, actually read or may be heard in your pocket? Something we're chair would actually turn her bedroom laid on is a message that Cheetah ride home safely. So you know my guess is you're. Looking at it for the inaccuracy explanation, I assume Joe would say I was concerned about terror. I entered before the police got there because you know. Maybe there be a gap in time and I can help her out if we're something that happened to her course. On the other hand, you might say there's something the various in that him during means he might have had something to do with it, but you know without additional evidence, it's tough to reach anything firm. The way of a conclusion that morning, joe the neighbour, let him often and other neighbours men as well- and they were all kind of running through
for a start, looking for her is even told me that people that didn't even know terror that well we're inside her house that morning or throughout the morning should this have been prevented. Definitely creates the possibility of cross contamination retain, especially if eventually, someone who is in the house that morning are connected to someone in this house is eventually arrested and prosecuted for the crime. And yet I mean that's. One of the key things is to secure a crime scene which should have been done was when they arrived. This scene put around the crime scene tape and made sure that no one other than the investigators there on the scene in the fact that throughout this morning there were people summit. Whom couldn't even really be accounted for coming in and out of the house. That is definitely something of this case went to trial. You think that a fence would attack if anything at the crime scene works. In any way. To this aspect in the crime, What should law enforcement have done once they realized? Something was wrong tat morning when they,
Something was wrong. They should have secured. The crime scene made sure they collected the evidence in a timely fashion and fairly quickly tried to figure out what exists. Lee Terror. Dawn on that last day, we're then who is she had seen and talk to those witnesses as quickly as possible back on your party era the neighbour legs: are they had a little system? Go anywhere, tear would come home at night and she would turn her light on and they said that weekend on Saturday and Sunday night, tears, light didn't come on yet car was in the driveway that system that they had completely failed. I thought: Can it odd that they would bring them up so often mentioned, but if you really was- serious system. You would think that with her car being mare and her light, not on two nights in a row, maybe something is wrong, and that's why you have this system, but I don't know why you don't call please sooner. If that's the case yeah, I guess That's the question and that its difficult because it gets
sort of the psychology of how people act and always wonder. Well, maybe I would add that differently. I don't know it's up to say whether if I had this is What do I would have in the case of Joe? called earlier, or maybe you think, while her cars there, the lights- not maybe she forgot, maybe I'll, wait a little bit and see if something happens, sets its say again whether you sort of dry any inference from that that would negatively reflect on him in the case fascinating here. Seven following the podcast honesty is now look forward to seeing where you take it, but yet one of those things were, I think you resented a lot of possibilities out there and its really tough to say exactly what happened. I guess that's why it's been on software these years, but I think you ve opens. And is therefore investigation, hopefully through your castigation, that the police are eventually able to apprehend the person responsible for this horrible crime
Transcript generated on 2020-01-12.