« Up and Vanished

Case Evidence 04.03.17

2017-04-03

Take a deeper look at the evidence as experts discuss new developments in the case. 

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
As the GPA presumably strengthens their case against Ryan. Do Portiere, Grinstead murder for the general public there's still a ton of unanswered questions, so this change over the past month and terrorist case for rest from a twelve year old coal case to a high profile, active investigation with two back to back arrest. And an extensive search for her remains on a peak on Orchard Fitzgerald says the first this package. We ve had numerous, birds on the show, sharing their insight and expertise and attempt to make of all the matters with Let's change recently, it felt right at such basic. with some of those who offered us their insight and expertise early on in the investigation before the recent breaks in the case today, I want to catch up with some of those people in light of all this. breaks in this case. This case evidence
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is Tracy Underwood, who spoke with an early on in the pie trees. Conducting multiple searches for terror grinned said remains all through our urban count. with her cadaver dogs, but each time they turned up empty handed, I caught up a tracy to get her take on every in looking back on the searches that you performed with your dogs does surprise you that she was there or did you think that she was somewhere else where the air what are they ve been searching for current orchard, not certain that area, and I am not familiar with the area that they are searching for the areas that other areas that research you know recently didn't find evidence
there and that's not unusual on its way the most times cases, especially like this one they may search. You know a dozen more places on even to three days in places and not find anything at all, but that's ok, because at least we quiet our process of elimination that we don't know where terror is, but we at least now, where she's not, and that's what I tell vainly than official that any case we get involved with. There's really only one thing that we can combat that is at the end of the day or no more than we did at the beginning of the day, so being supplies this He was in this area. A little girl, but not for copper reasons why this is a very, very small community and supply,
bad it that someone that went to the same school that she walked out and be in such a small community that this did not happen sooner from a little surprised by that, I'm not surprised that she was found. You know in a pretty close, How many of where she was wise, saying it is highly unusual for people that are adopted and killed today are there remains placed long distances, it does happen, but a traitor. Those are the reasons why you are part of an I'm surprised by the other. Half of that. I am not surprised by the make sense. How are you So did you search with your dogs back then?
the year. I would estimate we probably search at least thirty different areas over the years. Of course, the first few days are few weeks. We searched the lot of you and then we could combat rumour so pure say they would may we will go down their checks as clear as day. You know what we're looking for not here, so I had to guess at least thirty times are thirty different areas. We search over the years, did you bring your dogs to terrorist house at all? Well now we get. We
growth by the house, but we did not start with the dog I it was my understanding. The house was thoroughly checked and investigated, so the door was not used inside her house around her house. How long after the death can a dog trees descent mean if dogs were to the peak on orchard a few weeks ago or something before they found her remains. Could they have found it? The dogs? There could be a question, and the answer to that is you have several different variables here, let's say and this is just theoretical. If someone was killed and find their home and was there with blood there are, even if they were inside the home for a period of time,
and then their body were transported and when both from the home and by some while the sand there and depends upon different variables that there could still be residual fear. I think it is important to note the listener spared she remained detection dogs are clearly that they are trying to locate human birthing, and that is the sort of human remains. It should be clear Their protection dogs do not locate prongs bombs, the thief individual. What they are locating indicating to is the sack of that
particular item that had been imprinted on it in this case of humor me. So I say that to say that with someone, let's say: if they were buried somewhere and then moved for many years, and is still going to remain, and in this case I don't know details, but it's my understanding that the officials are searching IP con orchard and presumably she was buried there and that was twelve years ago, we have a situation where terrorist remains presumably had been buried in Bonn. While the fund itself is still going to be, there airport drug dealers had been trying to hide the scent of drugs.
A variety of very creative ways for dogs, ability, smell things and peer in this case now is very, very difficult to mass that either. air. Her remains one buried in the sand. Steel is going to be there and the girls will indicate to light all specifically the oldest remarries a day it found that had been verified that approximately two hundred and fifty years old As for the revolutionary war, battlefield soldiers were killed in the line of duty and during the bow, even after twelve years. The faint still born there. None only doing as the body decomposing our bad cadaver fluids.
here the composition and skin and organs, and everything that goes into the process. The body decomposing you walk into the ground, the plant life, the girl, an extremely scare from meeting many years even after them remove her remains, If not unusual for human remains to tax amounts to go in that area and still work where she was very because that Finland has been dogged into the environment I'll stay there for years. Terribly short answer to your question: if the dogs were brought to the fore con orchard, ah there is a very high probability that they would have indicated to her remains and to her great fight, even if she's been banned and buried, during your searches, the thirty or so searches, you did over the years for terror,
did you ever search anywhere in Fitzgerald. We get hurt her a few places in could share old. I don't recall patience, but I do remember specifically, we did not certainly the carnival church. There were few fields like cotton fields, the alpine creek and things like that, but now the car, the church. So, according to the gb I'll tear was killed in sight of her home in her body was the same day, if Dogs were sent out to the house to detect the sense of I guess, cadaver. At that point, Not even remains. How long would have to have been there deceased in order for any dog to pick up that sent at her house There are different variables. the transition of the dog to cool allied person pursues a debt person.
There when we die or body immediately starts decomposing. So if it situation, withers open wounds. The decomposition process is certainly going to grow. Much quicker, there's also in blood and other body flow ever going to come out of the body and the unity soared into member copyright would forward, count your back. It's my understanding from the news reports that she was strangled. Farms to mean that there is probably no open wounds format you her body, we now have a fully intact body, then starting the decomposition process now the harder it is the quicker the bodies going to decompose
forward counter a bad. It's my understanding from the news reports that she was strangled, farms to mean that there is probably no happen much more slowly so how many years either you spent often on working on terrorist case with your dogs we were called shortly after she disappeared, A man I to say the last time we went. There was, however, four years ago. They happen only for its ban, again approximately nine to ten years as a few hearing, this news of the arrest in passing
finding tears body where any time we have a case like there's a specialised, that's a long cold case. My first thought is the family there to live in this torture in this nightmare. For so long certainly takes its talk. So my first thought when I heard breaking news on this case, but her family is that, thank goodness, her family now has the majors, certainly not the outcome there they were hoping for, but at least they have some answers and stood just being in darkness and in this way tricks of not knowing
and I have come to the realization after doing this for so many years, that the not knowing is the absolute worst for any family, even if its worst outcome, not knowing is the worse. So I was glad to hear that they have come to lay some conclusion to this case. Pray family can start in a strange sort of way the grieving process. Over again, you know they went through the grieving process of home this thing for many years ago, and it really is about MR, like for these families, but there still now just stagnate your ears, carnal on Paul Abner, Norway.
Now that they now have some answers, they can start Norway, the grating process, but, more importantly, the healing process. So that was what came to mind from it is good that we can at least start the Healing Plaza. I can't imagine how they could find peace encountered with without knowing it that way. You know where she is and what happened in a very narrowly symbolic way, but physical way, the boy her home, the bring her home where she belongs, no family can ever prepare for the US and its back
The happy in my deepest condolences and sympathy and compassion goes out to her family, and I want to thank everyone that was involved in their over the years, because it doesn't differently thing and ways to know that people are now to help do everything they can. I thought at first hand how running that's a different from families It's that time of year again, time to set new goals and resolutions easy to make, but their harder to stick to an. We believe that can motivate inspire in form and he'll be successful and twenty twenty and the years to come.
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I am also known, as the no body guy confine my website on W W W nobody. Murder cases dot com. In my book is nobody homicide cases, a practical guide to investigating, prosecuting when in cases when the second, Nothing so maybe about last time were just what it takes to The conviction with nobody case in Canada. Talking about the different much of this case with someone having to come for with information- and you know the likely they're, not the sort of things now there's been to arrest in this case terrorists. Is now is tat, Thirdly, a no body homicide investigation, but we do believe that the GPA found. Some remains. It is having officially said that, but I wanted to talk you about the price the commission with remains, but not technically a body. What are the police for right now to see if they were given a tip to go
to certain area for terrorist body. They went search there. They have concluded that search. What happens from here. What is strong enough to hold up in court is a full body, but, as you know, it's remains of some sort. Do they have to be to her? How does it all work sure so the likelihood finding a lot of remained is probably very, very low in this case, because of climate, you know of George, at the time that has passed Equally. If, as it sounds like here that the body was, you know, sort are dumped, maybe not apparently buried was wrapped in plastic or anything like that, and we always you dont, know those facts, but from what I know we sort of heard it seems more likely that maybe was just kind of abandoned their arm in a somewhat remote location
If that is true, then the only you know remains or likely to find are gonna be article of clothing that perhaps could be tied to her, and then he knows skeleton bones tee things that take. You know. I really really want hard to decompose. You go away its then gonna have difficulty of, can you get dna from those things in the answer is yes Candide DNA in and they would be able to talk to her either because they have some dna from her. Maybe things in her apartment, her a toothbrush food crops, those types of things that were in her how such then, you can tie the dna that way or you can use family dna. That is get the right answer. father and a mother, both of whom, I believe our lives for biological parents in time, there remains from the dna. To that known. Dna repair
making a match that way that that's also possible the biggest challenge, though I think he's gonna, be that not going to be able to determine cause of gas because when the amount of remains at a likely dire, it probably going to be difficult to say. Well, it was blood for trial. But what was strangulation you know, all of those things are just not inferior. Poland, too, you know appear. On one aims, were here's the thing We don't know for sure what the GB sound or what actually happens but from all The information that I have gathered, and I believe it to be true, is that they burned her body so: whatever remains they're looking for, you know would be burned. So how does that change things? If that was true, but I will say it is very, very difficult to completely burn a body when you're talking about the temperature that you need to create, I'm such a something you,
not a climate warrior moors, some type of place that does its professionally for creation purposes. You're talking about four five. Six hundred degrees found high temperatures that incredibly difficult to you know. When you base doubling the bonfire. You know out an open shops, Bernie a body tend not to be a particularly effective, way of getting went out, I'm a body. What did it is going to mean that its public not to speed up any, be composition. As occurred, although I would still imagine that it would leave the possibility of finding tones cheap and those tat, you think they're the most it called the barn, even one you're burning at a very high incineration wait, you often have those types of I'm gonna need because they're so difficult to burn. So, while I think is clearly a handicap and makes it more difficult, I still think alike, What have completely and generating a body in what basic gonna be the lack of it.
the a bonfire. That's just not that's, probably not likely to happen soon. and that there's likely still some identifiable piece of evidence left number. Small it is? There may be something I would think so just because I think it unlikely that you're gonna be all have a fire enough. That would you know pulverizing incinerate the bone. I'll see that you know is happening. I think it is much more likely that even was born You know I wish your burning a flash and maybe you're getting worse clothes and whatever else I think it's still going to be difficult to do enough to actually get rid of. I will just looked at my book. because I wanted to make sure- and I wrote a wine analogies burning- a body completely requires temperatures of at least fourteen hundred to eighteen hundred degrees, Fahrenheit. Even then bone fragments can remain behind Joel.
No one on the temperature. I mean you're talking about incredibly high temperatures, which are just so unlikely to be happening in a bonfire likely that meat. That is much more likely that, while your burning in a flash in those types of things, there is still a chance to be leaving behind bone fragments In any event, given the passage of time, you unlikely to have flash in those type to think left behind anyway, simply because the passage of time, let alone the birth rate- So what challenges are the prosecution facing right now? Well, when you have No body, one of the things you have to prove that the person is in fact dead that that challenge. If you have someone me, that you can tie and looking through dna or to some other matter tied a tear grinstead. You wouldn't have to prove that that's one less challenge for the prosecution, because you're going to be able to argue yes children's day,
dad what they're not going to be able to argue possibly is american, be able to argue how she died in that's going to be important, because as you pointed out on, the show a number time than me. Piece of evidence in this case is probably going to be the testimony of someone testifying against. Why do, and it's probably going to be both due to believe what sort of happening here that I think your powerless cover really well, That's going to be the main tat long in what you want to have is one of the other collaborate, everything that both you said that if you know it the body or he was there and the peak orchard and brought the body there on this, I looked at it and saw at why she had happened to a cheaper strangle the war. However, the means of the murderer, courage, and if you can collaborate that from the body itself, it makes it harder for the positive.
because you want to be able to cooperate everything that, though, do said so that you have that information and find the jury to say yeah. He said she strangled, and then when we found the body or the remained were able to see her high oil, which is thereby I'm gonna throw Ohio was broken so that a final strangulation, those types of facts regarding more difficult, I'm not going to have those facts right. So in one of the things that I've learned. As you know, we don't over sure what's happened, but One of the things going around the Brian Duke may have confessed in some sort of capacity, so that could become the untrue and I do not know, but it was soon it makes little bit if Ryan just admitted it and bow corroborated it and then got the arrest warrant to go search. The peak on orchard but where things stand right now Wooden Ryan to say: hey, wait, it wasn't me
It was both. Who did it sure I mean that's that's what often happens when you have the only to people who are involved with the fingers at one another. The problem again now is when you don't have a body, you can't collaborate, what one for sustaining verses, what another person who sang, possibly because you don't have anything Independent bear two story, so your basically trying to sort out both do instead. It happen this way. Binding says it happened like you: don't have any independent evidence on the body that none on that she wasn't that was actually signed off. He sang it was established in hissing. It was now is the time violation, and we can prove that because we have the body that is now in particular challenge with nobody. Cases Jason's when you only have some remained may be enough time to hold of it, the maid, but how they were actually murdered. were the day in this case right now, but would you want
happen next. What's the best way for you to get your conviction? Oh that's. All hard to say without knowing what they know in this case. The one thing I will say is: if you are a prosecutor faced the case where you're either relying on a confession: war coding- and a testimony on form testimony that is someone else he's got. Some issues are coming forward in telling you the single most important in that must have must have independent collaboration of what they are saying for confession, it's required On the belies the pointed out, you can simply cubic someone under conditions need other collaborating evident, but you also need it in front of a jury, because you're gonna have to convince the jury that were not. The government is not just relying on the person If not, why not as co defendants who is involved in the murder or an informant
as their own, possibly shady criminal background as well You ve gotta, rely on. We independently proved that, because we had X Y and see that independent collaborators, a prosecutor, that's what I've been looking for to say to the job. The items ever was not the case. What independent area Do we have that the confession is wide word what they inform another, how to find and has told us now part of that you have because it remains our tied to tear Grinstead. You do have an independent fact. They shed dump the body in the orchard and there it is that's helpful It seems like you, will just be in their best interests for Ryan due to say yes you're right. I did this. He signs the piece of paper and takes a pleasing goes to you. this is a very small town with not very much money.
and this is a very high profile case right now and you clearly the judge agrees by placing this gag order on the case she has since loosened up a little bit, but based on all of that, it seems to me that it would be in their best interest to get Ryan Duke to plea out on this and, if then he opens up. If you please not guilty, then there are so many things that could go wrong depending on what they have and don't have on Ryan, Duke Verses BO. You know We need more subtle sensing guidelines and I imagine Georgia. There is a benefit to what called acceptance of responsibility when it comes to sentence so dearly in a case that you think you're going to get convicted in getting better off to plead guilty, because then you can argue to discharge accepted responsibility. We know it or do they have the death penalty, but obviously your email possible
they're here in terms of whether at the death penalty case or not? I don't know that passengers in use that as a leverage or life in prison without possibility pool you have that laboured seven is almost all better to go ahead and plead rather than to take your chance, a child unless you think you're gonna win. Now I will say- and I think you and I discussed this- earlier in the podcast conviction raid on the body cases that from eighty nine percent is actually very high, which is sort of counter intuitive to what you think of it. These are hard cases I mean that only the strong cases go to trial on, in typically there's a domestic relation between the two key. or what we don't know. We don't really have here, although it son now strange on stranger case, because they call it
He knew each other, I mean somehow. I know he went to the high school she's, a teacher there we'll find out I'm sure whether there was some relationship which I suspect, there's probably some relationship between member. Perhaps is just in mind weeks behind their clearly was something going. I don't buy from minute that this would he broke into our house. It's the only thing came into. Our housing are invited, one whatever, but I think that you too much one likely fury burglar, breaking in doing this and then deciding I gotta give her the body that is very very rarely happens. It doesn't usually happen that way. speaking of that burglary charge, and it has been a lot of talk about that. I was the definition of burglary and robbery, it's their two different things, but state doesn't specify in their charges what exactly the burglary charge means so we talk a lot about it. Was he there to rob something is barely George just representative of him not leaving?
He was supposed to orders being inside tears home when one in there. So what do you make it? charges and in a why they may or may not be there just based from prosecution standpoint. Why think it's apps lastly, what it is in that he went in there to do something else. Maybe it was thought, maybe it wasn't sexual assault? Maybe something happened inside that the prosecution believe they can prove he had mine too doing before he got in their war, he committed a felony ones. wasn't. I really dont for a minute believe this is what way people think about the poor boy. Any form b C and in Georgia has differently than mostly people. I mean you know you. You came in with the intent to commit a crime, and I think that's what we have here. I think the prosecution is using it because it's something there can be no charge him worth its strong charges, atmosphere
only charge, but I dont really for a minute think that it was because she teeming out of me no steel, her stuff. I think it seems likely that There is some relationship between them, as I said, possibly just in mine. I thought it was telling that sort of weird Facebook message he central another form of teacher fairly recently, I mean that's kind of an odd thing to say to a teacher many men now many years later, and probably what fourteen ten years are evaluating Highschool your body back and saying that you found some sexually to me. That today, are you speaking that Facebook message. What do you make of that and is that something that is Ryan, do pled, knocking T and the states trying to prove to the job very emotive and just get the can, they want. Would they use
that would it. What does that tell you that strong enough is evident. What do you think they depend on what their theory is if they were to spend our theory again. This is just a theory that there was either existing relation ship between wine and terror over there was something arrived mind that he had a crush honor. He was interested in our lives. should he went over there because he was trying to do. What am I think that type of thing could come on. It can be very dependent on Georgia, trial, evidential law in terms of what is allowed, but I could see him. Like that coming in because it shows his sword of perhaps not completely logical thinking the fact that the way to a teacher fifteen years after I graduated in their fathers taxi and attractive. This would strike me as near, but I think it may go to show that perhaps he had these sort of unrequited crushers work, weird fixations
on the teachers at his high school- I think that is the prosecutions going with that theory, because there was some relationship between them. If only in wine MIKE, you probably could get that it is moving. Something you have to establish, or is that does something juries like computers like the here? It is definitely not a requirement, but you gotta have something on particularly Nobody case for your kind of scratching your heads sort wondering in a lot of nobody cases whether the person being dead. A motive going in that makes a really difficult case. No one, Europe, during the trial you're telling the story, so you have to have your story consisted in and have to be. It has to comply with certain human emotions? What people think and no one, some things are not legally required, but you ve got to show that the jury, because it enabled you to put all your evidence in a particular way to say, see: jury! Isn't this consistent with the story. I've been town you from the big
he had this weird crush on her? He went over to her house to talk to her and she said get out, I'm not interested. They had a struggle. Whatever it's going to be. You got to be able to show that to the jury even if a legally you don't have to prove that right, that's one thing We don't know yet. We are really in the dark with what Ryan Dukes motive was me away, I was this guy here. Why do both It involves the way he did. These are things that we really do no and the public in general really wants to know interesting if Ryan do did plead, not guilty what story the state is going to paint for everybody, and you know what spheres there. What has is that, if Ryan, Duke just so and the deal and pleads guilty on this- that we may never know what that is. although I dont know how widely that is in terms of not knowing you need a fact, because I dont know how the state than a fit by not being forthcoming with the facts when it comes to
Hunton check, I mean jollier sentence in the passenger. Is gonna wanna go through the whole story, because it's going to bolster their argument for what their sentence is going, be so I dont know why didn't they appeared a government gets by saying what really big facts that may be better We make a legal definition for the key economic. turn around assented to run and ass for twenty years, thirty or forty years, you know life without below all at so I think it unlikely that that's going to happen, because I don't now that really benefits may be benefits do come sentencing. But I dont know why any prosecutor would agree to you. Never walk there bone fact, one very specific detail, and particularly in a case like this the day, I'm sure is going to be under pressure to tell the public at large hears what happened You ever been involved in a case where the judge issued a gag order, who that's a good
no they're, not real common in see where I practice. So I think the answer is no. I'm just running through my cases, but now I dont know how to gag on what do you make of the gang order in this case in the gridlock? Is? It was odd he'd because you a gag order put in place- and you didn't know why usually, You have open arguments about it. You have a most men, you have opened arguments in public and that just struck me is very odd and then what was otter was how all encompassing it seemed to be like nobody can talk about it whatsoever. I haven't read them. If I gave order- and I do know that it was modified from what I've heard- that it seems to have been modified to more reasonable just being tied to the parties would like big nation wide is probably not unusual
The initial one struck me as very odd, because if you are going to do a gag water, I think its hunting that needs to be hashtag and public. What would you did happen here ultimately, because there needs to be some transparency about why there is a gag water, and I get it. You know here too small town lot of high profile interest in it, but generally the way you work? That is when you just do it was called the changes. Then you have a trial, another county where people maybe dont know so much about it. Not necessarily not necessarily involve a gag water where people can't talk about it that to me seems a more logical way to resolve it, of course, being prosecuted in defence attorneys. Don't like that because they are moving out. of their home territory element the hotel and all add just more difficult for them to get ready to be the way those things will resolve as scattered. Can you see any benefits in the gag worked on
Please stop leaking. I mean sometimes on any case, you worry about. You know your fellow prosecutor, joint investigative team leaking about what's happening, because I want a correction the natural loans from the european point- and that can be damaging how'd, you like to have your evidence fresh when you are present. Here too, the jury not have all the facts out there before him, because you don't want people to prejudge asked Peter you're not trying to win convictions. Your time have fair trials and it's not fair. If a lot of information is getting out even dumping on, you know the defendant, cheap tickets, Pascal became great unpeopled, more likely not all about. Dare you know China get notches on about were trying to do fair and just trials for people So what's the most important thing to a prosecutor, a fair trial, They were to be a fair trial. Are you not any kind of prosecuted I'd want to know, and that's why I've always set out my prosecutors saving, never lost a case that need you didn't take tough cases to try you now,
there to win convictions. Are you trying to win absolutely? Are you trying to convey the person Ask your main roles and see that justice is done, not that you get a convention. I've had many acquittals now in murder cases. It happens, but as long as I feel like, I did my best and put on her best evident in the jury's here. you're, not they're, just do not just a winner at any cost. There certainly pass. if we want to win no matter. What don't get me wrong, but my point is that not what? Therefore you wanna wind, but sometimes you know I just missed charges, one in a large old case, when I started having doubts about whether
the store own. I was really white about whom he identified as the water and that happen, sometimes in triumph, not showing more files which much bigger one up and trap, but sometimes you know mister in your case, in low level founded cases, you start sit. Maritime, oh wait a minute, you officer saying something: it completely inconsistent that doesn't make sense, and in that case your obligation not to say one minute, just keep going and with a jerk. You still have doubts about whether your wider, not Unita. You know you need to take action to correct that by dismissing the case or whatever to convey, so a good prosecutor which most of them are, do you take that obligation very seriously? As you know, we have obligations to turn over evidence had favourable to the descending in other Brady disco. George. You have evidence that tend to exonerate the defendant or tends to mean that something could cast doubt on his guilt. You have to turn it over.
The fence to that should say: yeah yeah Louis called the Brady disclosures the Supreme Court cases from nineteen. Seventy two that showed the prosecution has to turn it over to that should show you that you're looking for a fair trial, you're, not just there the convicted, not like civil cases, civil cases. If I find something that bad for my client and good for the defended I'll, have to turn it over. You know that discovery obligations but form of obligation to turn over something. You find that bad for your client so either does that that obligation better be following it. So now that you're gonna caught up on this case and in a kind of just in summary, of what we talked about last time and where we are now so anything add to the discussion or anything that you an interesting that you, you wanna time, end to add about everything why I said this law. Ass time that when I talk to folks police and prosecutors about nobody,
as I already stated, that you can make a case without a body, for your case belongs better. When you have about, If you're in the beginning stages of your investigation, early any stage need to try and find a body that really needs to be job one, and I think that we should hear in this case, where even if the remains are, you are unable to tell how the murder happened. having remains in being able of time undeclared winds. Tat is a huge thing in terms of moving the case in the investigation for put aside, even if you didn't have the arrest of wine, do him if you just found them remained in the empty candour church. That would be a huge investigative step because he be able to start now. Time line is orchard. Who has access? Oh yeah, I'm we heard that clues ten years ago about the party in the p can orchard. Who was at that? That would be a huge thing so back, I think
Really you had the arrest first and now may be finding the remain, but it just goes to show what a difficult task you have when you don't have the body, because you see how much easier things got once you have the body or at least for me, and so I think, that's important to a member The face of the case changed significantly once you get a body. What remains ok, let me ask you where you surprised by any of this com I got. I was shocked because on the last far, can you ask me on the telephone you and I spoke- he said what should I do next for my investigations I said to you, don't do it don't do anything! You didn't put that on the part tat which was probably smart. what I mean I was, What's wrong, I mean you you you didn't saw, but obviously, but you you're publicity I have to imagine, played an unknown
honest war, I'm in moving the case forward and will know you know when the whole things over people probably know a little bit more about how I dream about forward, but there's just no doubt that your involvement new played a part If war, no one knows exactly. We know why this tips came forward, but just the fact that it happened, isn't urging, because from every expert, I've taught two, including you, and really even my own personal opinion about everything is statistically it just doesn't happen. right. Not a common thing were the more time goes by the Sea level Leslie, leaders there it's going to be solved, yeah, it's definitely turning. It's like. I think, if you had your doing in the middle. I met the guy confesses. Instead, yeah did killer that trials and hotel. We don't quite have that here, but almost you confess that sound like to someone else about that.
The incredible myself I was, I was asked what the shock, especially when I should achieve. No doubt dont, go investigated just report on stop without your own investigate but how wrong? What do you think that? Because I think, for the most part, its death to leave the investigations to the professionals, because the one thing you can do you can cast stir up old thing that maybe one true- and you know it's tough, because you have absolute one- that in other words some people's needs were put out there, but not for the first time by you began there. I was she suspects along the way turned out. He had nothing to do with it, and I just you know my views may be jaded, because I was a prosecutor and you know an investigator means of these cases and sometimes feel like you know, people should
read it. People want to do it, yeah, north and figure out how it happened in that's, not always the best way in other differences. I think I will says you handled it more from a journal. We stick you point of trying to figure out what happened and what facts are you did some gum shoe worked. I think most of it was really should have more journalistic than that, and I think you also handle things. The deadly, as he said, be not sooner or later this week you weren't potent both dukes name out there. until you felt certain you know and as it turned out until Eads ultimately arrested, and I think that all of the different do you know you read everything got ready these places, like all my gotta, just anybody out there. You know that you know the Boston there. Bond bomber, you'd I'll get good case. They had to occur in all these, which I asked a guy. That's the guy. You really have to watch that so that sort of my bias against citizen investigators, but now I will make it even here
action. While I appreciate the last question why draw the line, you think, I'm in your opinion, you're, not a jury less suitable. The different me you have written books we draw the line in investing. of journalism, you wear, is the lie where you are, certain yourself, too much verses a really positive impact on a case that was otherwise just cold with, nobody looking in anything to me? Maybe the wine would be if the police were to say, hey we're still looking at this honestly and if you go this way, it might interfere with something working. What you got? What could you not covered here and more time to get the people to talk? I think that the news will the wine- and I don't have any doubt that two gb- I was still investigating this case, but this
I mean, there's an agent assigned who every day is come in the works and how to tell Grinstead die or is it? I got seventeen coal case undoubtedly, instead of warm and if somebody called UKIP line I'll check it out. I think that to me is the difference. I think this case was probably cold urban most because it had been a long time. No, you can't you can't find one aid into a court case gets kind yours all, but if you don't need you to do what you do, I already forcemeat. He doesn't have the benefit of that many people, and so I think, given that that to me is more. The wine is, are you interfering with the active investigation if you're not I'm ok with pushing the anvil up a little bit. thanks, guys today's episodes makes him mastered by resonate recordings. You can check them out resonate. Morningsave dot com
be sure to tune in next Monday for episode. Sixteen thanks, guys I'll see you soon.