In today's episode will be taking a deeper look into them, I end of Ryan Alexander, Duke the man George, with terror, Instead, murder by now, we ve to several Ryan's friends, who have enlightened us on his behaviour over the years. But we still have. They will find a solid motive for tears. Murder, a few episodes back. We discovered a facebook message Ryan Duke sent another former teacher of is the seemed very peculiar We also learned that, shortly after tears, disappearance Ryan, One of his friends, the you've having night tears, couldn't sleep to daily digging with Doug Miller again the forensics like this we had on a few weeks ago. The last time we met had very information to give him, but based on what we do, now. The time Doug offered a theory be Ryan, had some sort of obsession over Tierra Or- even teachers. Today, a meeting with Doug again with new, and for me that may or may not support that theory. This is case evidence

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audible, dot, com, slash up or text. You p, two five hundred five hundred again, that's audible, dot com, slash you p or tax up to five hundred five hundred To recap everything Ryan Duke has sent one of his former teachers of Facebook message on April 27th, two thousand and fifteen at six hundred and twenty two a dot m. That said this, how are you just an older wiser for seeing how you were doing gotta, admit, thought you were sexy. Things aren't great for me Ok, life is the singularity we all share. If this is the line we speak

once you know, you're a wonderful teacher and a kind person. Thank you, for following my stubborn self, to learn. I wish you the best. I assured this message with the forensic psychologist: Doug Miller took his thoughts on it, ironic right, yeah potentially meaningful is this In that light, the prosecution would use to prove their point if their narrative was he. An obsession or something like that with her You could say it's one data point that supports that position. It may be enough to raise that story for it are you now, imagine them or will come up. If that's, what actually happened? There was just now. Here that we can tossed around maybe There is a relationship there and could have been an innocent or thing, but he took it to foreign. They were on the same level when it came to what was going on there, but ten years later, if he'd us, a safe Ryan, do did kill terror. What does that

you think that, ten years later its consistent with him, potentially having a crash that was contained him acting from an emotional place. This is ten years later by the crime occurred when he was twin was about. We want twenty one. Yeah the guy who seems to hold on the things this line. If this is the last we speak, I want you know you you're, a wonderful teaching camper whether that was some bad about to happen or, if she didn't respond and return. Look at the time. In the morning sun declaring three souci there he woke up early. I was up all night up all night yeah to me this is a guy reaching out for the potential of a relationship through in their gotta admit that you were sexy, her that's a come on it seems like is reaching out and

some feelings for her, and this was a high school teacher. Yes yeah, that's a long time after so does fit. That story that he held on to some hopes about being intimate or having relationship with terror, because you're used to sort of sympathising with some these people or empathizing with them. It makes sense. I mean if you do something professionally and utilities people use We have learned to understand area on a different level, Does it mean that you agree with what they ve done or that you think he was right, but you can sort of sea where something may have gone wrong to make them who they are something here: Secondly, the jury, and people in general. One understand: what's happened, including from a psychological standpoint, and you that comes together in a case, and you can tell the story that really seems truthful. That actually captures what actually happened If that happens, you know, if you, if you compassionate person,

then you're gonna have some understanding in and even some relationship to, so all I could see how that would happen, weather you still feel that it was heinous and horrible are you may have some sympathy just depends on. I think it goes by for the mitigation on the defence. I'd inverse the aggravation on the prosecutor side, deaf He was to possible to interpretations. You ve gone to an interesting level of depth in terms of psychologically now for that to be supporting followed the notion that there was an obsession now I can be painted in two different ways to things like a psychologist and you're making a hypothesis there would have to be more information for it to be convincing. Like you said this is one data point so now you have that piece of information. You might want to start looking at that. That said, the prosecution. Could you

This is a man whose prone to obsessive ideas that when intoxicated our or otherwise turns to some very negative behaviour- and I think the way it works for either side depends on how it presented an and what more of details of the facts and valuation of rain himself reveals right it's me- it seemed extremely ironic and the fact that he's been charged with them or of a former teacher. Then we find a very peculiar facebook message to another former teacher basically saying he's got a crush on yeah. It's like you, see, do points in a story, but it's like at the beginning and sorted near the end. What's gonna feel, then what is the actual connection? Is there one? You know but something that I would hold on it I was evaluating him and want to understand more and one thing. I have definitely found

from talking to people who knew Ryan is that the right today is not the Ryan who he was ten twelve years ago by a long shot. He is completely different. He has changed a lot. Over a decade. Can you say more about how well know? First, looking at him? He looks really healthy he's had drinking problems I've been told over the years and His friends is gonna describe them as slowly kind of turning miserable yeah. I've seen both pictures and I absolutely agree with you, and so you know every could come up with. Maybe a thousand explanations of how that might happen. And he added so Substance abuse issues, maybe prior to the murder, so that may not be an introduction of anything new, but he may have gone down this path Now plugging it into this narrative. Assuming that They commit murder that this

deterioration in him, mentally emotionally spiritually occurred due to the impact of him? Having committed this murder, you know we don't you get the feeling that this is a guy who's. Just a call back. the killer that murder? Someone then goes on with his life. I don't think that's what's being told here right This isn't sort of psychopathic just cold hearted per This is kind of a regular quiet guy and so it does still no fits that narrative and I think that's what you're kind of hitting on here. and remorse, isn't really supposed to be something that's too heavily considered, but either and will, if that's the story that emerges that this will really greatly impacted the sky, that it was a bit. To his own emotion, anxiety and his own mental weakness,

and this was a crime of passion if it ever turns out like that. But it affected him greatly and really wounded him on a deep level that affected the rest of his life in a very negative way, because he felt so bad about it, any regardless of what it does to him or for him the court room the general public likes to know. Does he bad about it. Is he remorseful and the joy Publix public's gonna beyond the jury and rains that you telling the story to yeah The new year is upon us, which resolutions do you plan to conquer and twenty twenty sticking to improve

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slash cadence shortly after terror was murdered. Ryan do confided of his friends that he was having night tears and he couldn't sleep and it actually got so bad that he had shook himself into a facility. I wonder your take on what causes night terrors, what exactly he may have been talking about and if their you have been any relation to, what anti terror and how he was feeling about it. Yeah and again there can be lots of causes tonight terrorist everything from your eating pickles before path to be. Traumatize. What is a nightmare? it's really in extreme nightmare, its

something where you are having a tremendous fear response. usually to the point where you wake up because you your adrenaline go in your hearts, raising you're sweating. I mean you're like in a terrifying situation in your dream annually got terrified, usually wake up. No, sometimes you know wake up, but that's all a general description of a night terror Kids have em for sort of unexplainable reasons. Rare serious. They can be associated with physical illness like a fever, so lots of things can cause them. So one areas of expertise, is post, traumatic, stress, disorder and One of the ways I assess severity of trauma, symptoms of post, traumatic, stress disorder, is recurrent nightmares that are related to the trauma. So

the night terrorism. One thing: the question is what the content exactly and because you know I bore to people that have night errors and PTSD, but maybe the nightmares don't seem related to the trauma and then it's a curse. Of whether they actually are not and so that begins to be one, Questions in this case now grief. and bereavement can often look lot like trauma. So when we have a major loss, all we have a lot of guilt about something we ve done back look a lot like trauma as well, and you can have no terrors about that and you can have intrusive thought, seven and as a whole, set of symptoms. Anyone can google PTSD, post, traumatic stress disorder and and see what those are, but it gets

or severe when night terrors are more frequent or even regular, and then, if some was having flashbacks, whether reliving the trauma, that's about the servers you know so, on that list, yea didn't expect, into his friend exactly what he was thinking, nor if was dreaming or having flashed back so anything. He just said he has been able to sleep had hadn't him in a while he said sorry had been having night, terrors not being able to sleep, so I can go get checked out for a little. While. That's why you haven't seen me for a little while my first Kind of got reaction? You know, and it would be somebody and want to consider and look at the data. This is a guy that will have a huge secret he murdered. So it is wholly secret. So is not telling people, but he might be, the symptoms, and so people when attributed to other things, who knows what happened? as we have this level of information

We are using conjecture, you givin you getting little pieces and eventually we're gonna. Have the story eventually haven't very satisfying, and I think a sense that we have. The truth is: is gonna, be there, so you by like wondering about the trauma. truth is in the details and and we know what else is in the detail, sometimes re. So as far as arm PTSD goes or nightmares and night tears. sort of symptoms of pity, he is well anyhow, does it manifests itself were very often especially in the months and even years following the trauma there. More of they can go on for a lifetime. it's one of the first symptoms I ask about because again it it nails cut, least a moderate severity to the PTSD other things are avoiding the assault.

he added stimuli of the trauma, so he might avoid her street. He might have avoided the p, can orchard may have stopped hanging out with his body fuse traumatized there and being reminded of anything that remind him of it creates a state of great anxiety, and well, and it brings up the images, the memories the feelings of the in it and those become intolerable. An overwhelming and agree strain on someone's resources and a lot of people that do have trauma anxiety is one of the characteristics of PTSD, though turned to drugs to self medication, and reduce their anxiety, so were focused on this mpg sd P were associated stimuli when their ex

was to it, they experience arousal like anxiety in panic, and they want to get away from it and escape all that. another set of symptoms in the PTSD nightmares anxiety, as I already said, intrusive thoughts. So, like you just be having hanging out may be fishing and thought it comes into your head and causes that type a disturbance and anxiety in you, so disturbing intrusive thoughts are another symptom and this is where you get this kind of tortured image that might fit the actual photographs that you are describing of his detour, nation over the ten years. He was tormented and tortured by what had happened. What is the fundamental? prince in the person that shows these symptoms of deterioration, PTSD, Gill, remorse versus the person who doesn't

what year on hinting at is counted the spectrum of psychopathy, and that includes anti social personality with is a lack of- concern a regard for other people or that the impact of their actions tend to be very self serving and see. Other people more is like objects to obtain, gain and benefit then, as Canada, normal valuing of human life, man than other people, will have One way to understand that is just a matter of kind of emotion, compassion and heart in the person that is affected and a lack of those, the lack of compassion, a lack of for others in the anti social and psychopathic spectrum disorders, as a social psychopathic individuals don't relate in a compassionate, so

pathetic third manner to other individuals, and so they can perpetrate against them and feel no guilt or more for regret, grant their deteriorate. They'll go on to the next victim or the site now be the same. Ten years later you know the way you look for that. You look at criminal history. You look at it psychologists. Our. A person that works with people you can sometimes sit across from them in and just feel a different Well, it's driving house thinking about other things. I can ask you now just wondering You have like a sense when you sit down like somebody that this guy might be a murderer or and they you easily is a different every time very much now, that's agonal mean anything in the courtroom. And I use it, as I say: like another data point, or this doesn't for it now, someone could feel

oh really, cold, because maybe they had a bad day or maybe they're afraid or maybe so as a product. I believe I can be fought by anyone and because I believe that I think I'm food less than someone who thinks they cannot before, if you believe you champion where some of the greatest insights and aspects of being a psychologist come in is that kind of intuitive sent. that all needs to be backed up, and you can't be biased by that. If you really have to look at the data, you really have to look at the information and psycho Just don't go on the stand, particularly in these kinds of cases are pretty much any case in court, and so always gotta have a gut feeling about it. Yeah, that's just going to go over well in practice, stop is used by the it's. Not real upon in terms of making conclusions, I think most

of the people listening to this may have had an experience where they may be sitting across from a person or interacting with a person. and they just seem to be a coldness array. sense that something may have been missing enter. When I evaluate someone we happened to be in my office right now in all of this things you maybe beyond that and then Other people you sit across and you feel like their yo like your Mildred. So to speak, these warm, passionate, caring Since I mean I can. See in your eyes that you know, I think you're pretty passionate person, we haven't talked a whole lot. right, but whether we could see that in each other, are you ever fooled? I love that question stand responses. I believe I before by anyone, and because I

leave that I think I'm food less than someone who thinks they cannot before you believe you can't before your for exactly and By knowing that things your impression or even the data that you get not be accurate and validity the huge issue and in all of this and what you know getting at. of a substantial picture a person in terms of not only the testator that psychologist use, not only our feelings that we may have used initially in a case, but in terms of third party reports, general consistency across data lenses. liberty. The answer is yes, I can be fooled and I think I'm full less, because I know that Just in general, from what we learned last time, we talked dvd different about things.

Now than you did last time with less information, a small amount of information relative to when I evaluate someone. I happen to be in my office right now and all This is just one case, so I have about ten twelve in stack of of records. Some Those are four pages compressed onto onto one page from wow and you never know when a piece of information gonna gonna come up, so Oh there's really small my information, but the something that starting to form here, which is that you know sort of. this emotional crush theory or call it. Maybe the crush theory. Again of small man information but You know- even you reacted, saying like this This kind of seems to fit that. That's how you started this interview this

this seems to fit that sort of explanation, I think you have sense about this case, who Ryan is, and you know I affirm that he doesn't know opinion when the limit amount of a doesn't seem like an anti social guy right. So this is a guy that may be motivated by his emotions and and Then the other little Facebook message comes up also is, is deterioration over time. You know that that's a tricky one, because what is upheld and who would commit murder alike. I've come to find that there's a surprising range to answer and ensure that they are necessarily no complete. lead dysfunctional, the ranged people. I can't say I feel differently. The I feel about the same now. There's a little data about this too. And him had potentially having curses on people

I'm getting a little clearer about the chance that he was traumatized, perhaps by the murder itself or aggrieved or guilt stricken to the point of feeling bereaved, and showing symptoms of trauma the handle complex bereavement, which can look tuning next Monday April, so those directions, see more realistic, yet the audience is on edge, and I am really would love to evaluate this guy for this purpose. I'm just curious about ass case and I think that's what and start really get in some of the meat, in this case, to affirm some of these stories, it is interesting that we touched on that possibility with IE that he entertain some kind of emotional and passionate fantasy about his teachers, so we can't we brought it up, but then this way spoke purse comes

and I know when you saw that man and this doesn't look good but yeah. I definitely was wowed yeah so to hold that as a hypothesis that now has a little bit of data that may support it and There's a lot of dots that have to be filled in so for example. If that was the only data point and you're sitting on the stand in front of a jury and the whole Coreham, and yeah. This was always passionate emotional thing because look he made this Facebook message ride out, fly but its point. not direction, rationale, something that needs to be explored and see. If that's part of what happened here, thanks for listening guys visa, there was mixing mastered by resonate recordings. You can check them. A resonate recordings, dot com, The way you haven't yet you can find

up and vanished on Twitter and Instagram. The handle was up and vanished. You're too tuning next Monday April. Twenty. Fourth- seventeen thanks, guys I'll see.