Welcome to the Summer of Night Vale Presents, a celebration and sampling of some of the shows across our network. This week: a look at two of our non-fiction shows, I Only Listen to the Mountain Goats and Conversations with People Who Hate Me.
I Only Listen to the Mountain Goats is a show about what it means to be an artist, to be a fan, and as many people are, both at once. Our first season found Welcome to Night Vale creator Joseph Fink in conversation with John Darnielle, singer and songwriter of the Mountain Goats, about their album All Hail West Texas. You’ll hear an excerpt from episode 9, “The Mess Inside,” which shows how these conversations wander through topics in unexpected ways.
Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a show where Dylan Marron, whom you may know as Carlos the Scientist on Welcome to Night Vale, takes contentious online conversations and moves them offline. This year, Dylan has been moderating conversations between people who have exchanged their own online negativity. You’ll hear the entirety of episode 12, “Burned at the Stake,” featuring a woman who wrote about why the TV show The Office doesn’t hold up to today’s standards and a man who told her she should be burned at the stake.
Find out more about these shows, and all of the shows on our network, by visiting nightvalepresents.com.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey there, as usual. Welcome tonight. Fail is on hiatus for the month of July, before
bursting back in August, with new episodes plus a run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, I'm very excited about during this month. Off we are doing something were calling this summer of night fell presence
every Friday during this July, we will be celebrating.
Sampling. Some of the other amazing work being done on the night fell, presents network, obviously
we are known for our fiction podcasting, but in this first
of our summer of night nine percent celebration, we are looking at
of our nonfiction work? First off we're going
with a short excerpt from podcast I made last year called
only listen to the mountain goats. It is a show in which I sit down with one of my artistic heroes, John D, Arneil, singer.
And songwriter the banned. The mountain, goats and talk
but his songs about art and about whatever the hell we wanted to talk about. You dont have to know anything about. My
work or even his work. It's not just for fans of the mountain dotes. It's a long.
Inform experiment in what it means to be a fan to be an artist and
as many of us are to be both at once
sure, named at one of their best podcast of the year, saying that it is quote
A sensational inspirited idea surpassed only by the wonder of its execution. Here is a bit
Our conversation from the episode discussing John Song, the mess inside that gives, I think,
sense of how these conversations wandered through topics in ways, I really enjoyed
today we're gonna be talking about the mess inside John Mess inside Go Isn, T good
I'm trying to win
you're doing it on the last
happy now your life tour, which was the two I do with cocky king and
it's one of the ones that I remember very vividly. The last night
the tour Webster Haul, it being really good that night,
I don't know that we played at much since right.
You have some songs where you have a night work.
Definitive version eagles yeah now, whereas a point doing any more did with. Moreover, goals
I've done it, since it was a version Austin. Also on that tourism
Moreover, goals go through done
That was it so so is one of a couple. We talked about this that it is visiting a theme. I've been worrying for about was it
these two thousand, so really not for that long for five years at this point,
I've been served chewing on couples that that you are unhealthy together right.
But this one is a blot more nuanced, because they're not you know that
drinks but they're, not alcoholics, necessarily they're, not there
peril. They are trying
to recapture something that is lost
and I feel like that is actually a big theme in my writing since then that, prior to that
The way I would look at it. I had to put this way because it do
If you are young you to hear that the some stuff that it helps to have a couple more years, more rings around your trunk.
We rights, but loss is nothing grows bigger as you have more lose, as is the distance between the things you lost. A new growth, greater right said, the broader the distance.
The more there is say about it really, especially with a view to appoint we lost something. Then you can't remember what it was, because it was
one I did it. It is a sad song about people who were taken geographical. They got here and there trying to fix something that is irreparably broken, and the speaker knows that he knows he knows where
He knows. He knows well
he's doing it, which I think is reset read that exists. What makes it said.
Is a little sad if you're, so what
take a vacation in that will fix our marriage, but it sadder. If both people know it's not gonna work,
you know and that's a case which is one of them,
like a realisation of that. One of that concept, I think I have done
The problem now is why what's wrong with gray sky was passed me like two weeks, then dancing every night, neither by the crippling sense, a dragon temporal most of the time that balance right. But what can we learn from the past? We went down one week in this, but for me it was submitted by the city. In September. Man had dragged stop bench, we sat together. Then that's library, you are right. We ve made a mess. You mentioned it was energy and so with fault
since you have a thing where it starts out with theoretically happy selling scenario, but poor in minor courts, Reggie Sergeant Major GB, then there's like three minors in Iraq and in this one it is
immediately, basically a sad subject and know it's major big big pronouncing triumphant,
big. It's a big pronouncing, triumphant sounding song
I mean, I think, that's in part because that choruses so naked and I
to feel like telling the truth is power
This is just a story right, it's not about me or anything, but the speed.
Is saying something very true that you generally wouldn't say. Let us imagine that your marriage perish, the thought is in this sort of situation
for you to actually look somebody dead in the eye and go.
The problem is us. The problem is
It's not anything else. The prob
miss between us and in the mess, is too great to clean up.
You almost never say that if you were saying that you said in anger, you didn't even say it's. You say this Nick accusation. You would say you have made a giant mess right now.
Clean it up because of the mess you made, you might say right, but
It's unlikely removed, get to this point of honesty, of going.
Neither one of us can get away from this.
That we are both responsible for right, and it's like I like that.
In that way. I think it's a little bit of a study for Tallahassee, because our seas is loaded with the sort of inside it
delicacy couple if they were real people would never
she have the they wouldn't get to that level
be able to actually describe the chaos that they keep producing.
So it is with a song going with
my theory that is not at all endorsed by gender NEO North,
gets that this is the second
but if a trilogy that starts with riches,
wonder is right. So this is,
is the almost a third for the third part
I very is Jeff Davis counted as we did partly remains to be seen
Nor is it's so they all three centre on this idea of a relationship as a home and they all
you know, in the very first one as you, as you said, there's a there's, a hint of darkness there right, but it is ultimately a loving song. Yes and then this is one where that has. The tipping point
has arrived right and then the third one
as trilogy that you dont endorse, has a trilogy is a point where it is.
I like this through line. I like it, I don't you Jeff Davis.
Seems. Like I say I like the song and I like the other one objective to seem, like
Jeff Davis, just like it was saying
the song and I, like the other objectives, to seem like that's. It's a more mature song and I dont know if I was then or him now, a good, not writer, to plot a threesome cycle with the third one is also the best one that they cause. Usually I find in writing cycles that the early,
so for the cycle has the power of the newness and at once,
it can be real struggle when you're writing songs that are on the same theme.
maintaining that level of passion about the thing we first are right. You are. This is a great idea check these guys
their hilarious. They're, going to drink all night by an
get too excited? That's what was really.
No challenge was surprising, Mueller Tallahassee, because I'd start writing about those guys. I felt bad about those guys. I was
I refuse punishing them every time I wrote about them and then
it's about you this. I remained focused long enough that every saw
it made the album I feel strongly about and the ones that we didn't want to recording
but they didn't make that we did recording museum, our swords
what sort of feels like I'm not not connected, except for
gas Rosa really light, and I wish we had nailed
we are talking about with riches wonders because it said seven court song and it has a much more complex, riff too. It is what history
this one s three, but
for a lot of it? It has two? Does it
that shows up in the chorus, but other than that is is achieved there you go, you are you gonna riff, you gotTa G and see what I mean
ever knows. That's all you need, if you have a good idea right is see. Indeed it is
You mean you don't even though the court found here, you don't even need. The d
anybody who has ever seen a job in Richmond show knows other he's. A very good guitarist is the thing I scan the secret
Jaws enrichment, his egg. If you watch you oh yeah,
What you're doing worship
said the altar of simplicity, but you yourself are not simple.
But you do this. What is egg is done Tom, Tom Tom? That's all there is to it. You know it's a thing,
it's like so I watch a lot of cooking competitions and stuff and running that always comes up. Is the
you know when you make something very simple. Like
you're, just like I'm going to make some rose chicken and vegetable
you have to do it perfectly cause, there's nowhere to hide right. You know when you do like a very kind,
Black sauce and stuff
you can kind of fake it by lawyer adjusting, but there
something about. When you decide, I'm gonna do something. That is the simple that is Jean Sea routes.
You got no are too high. You have to really now that it has to be this interesting way of a poor, hadn't thought of it, though, is why started doing just you and sees its cause?
I only knew the super basics, but by this
yeah, I know more.
You'd feel that strong pattern for one thing is not
typical strong pattern. For me, the emphasis is the way
lands onwards. It too
the last of the two and four. But it's not you know by typical purer than this
So here's here's your default, mountainous, someone or something like that, but there is also there was his folks from for this. What I like this guitar Sergio, but like
what did there's anything prior to this one that does that country color in your cheeks is some. It is also on the two reports, ok so staring, but it is a tool for one same beats: Yamba diplomats from her very taxing method. Many of them go well at my door down roadside rights, unlike some I got is like it's gonna loping Texas swing to it and that's not something I had. We worked with war in part because I have the same sort of Gotham.
Brok, alternative culture, anti country biases that had carried until the
I'd, say early nineties, ladies
I bought Rosanna caches. Interiors no world described open for me, so
bragwaine, because you, oh you know,
thought about doing it in another thing is that you have him: that's fake country, country musicians are kind of like rightly musicians in it. You hear it and you just
doing it, and another thing is that you see everything. That's fake country, country, music,
kind of like railway musicians in it you here,
you just your people playing, wants it
player, you listen you old contracts. You only got everything
beyond this track is an absolute bad.
Like everybody on this track
oh good today,
I have no desire for you to notice at all right. They're, not
maybe go solos does nobody else is lacking in and stand right. They use and big
your country buckle instead as a guide best musicians in the world. So, whereas I can do
so do I tend to shy away from trying to do the governor taken,
back to song here this week,
a series of songs TAT is not in this happen, let all going to sound yes, which
feels at least somewhat kindred
Well, it's sort of explicitly stating what
The point is going to the figures. I won funny thing about early mountain goods at about a lot of music before anybody thinks did anybody outside
hometown is ever listen. One
think about when you're local seen as there are often a lot of songs direction.
Addressed to all our members,
Local scene, or are you know whose point
we'll be best apprehended by people who been seeing you every week. You know who see every day walkin around town, and
the going to songs? Although I didn't explicitly state this, when I was singing them,
but they were made to make fun of people
I'm from not
not any more specific, because there are so many of them who,
You see them at coffee on satellite. Ah, I,
I'm so tired of this town and all it's bullshit. I am going to go to New York, because people know what's up in New York met over here is much clowns right,
you know our assent
since your lucky man, I'm only back here,
till I can make enough money to move San Francisco because it sucks here is
as always such you. I just really must be
doing. This are never gonna leave ever do not if they
leave. They're gonna go away for like six weeks and then
the next seven years I'll never shut up about how great it was. Wherever was
there's a lot about this. Actually on the new. I was just thinking about member states Christmas with its. That was the impulses people go to your. They come back after their first after the first semester,
Colombia, whatever many people,
if you were just going backwards,
following around in the dark matter that words going down is, is in New York, where a kid and I won.
I'm in love with California. It will be for my whole life, especially southern California,
and to just feel defence, very defensive, unwilling or even talking about there is no place assembly. This there's no place that you can live. That is an awesome if you
are willing to one invest yourself in it and to find out. What's awesome read the minutes, you know no place. Actually, everybody
rules in some places unified with more than others better,
but so, Sir, I'm going to songs to make fun of people who thought I'm gonna fix my
life I'm moving to. Thus such a place cause you're, not
because you're innocent recovery is I this is awaited.
Everywhere you go there. You are right. Well, if you
everybody around. You is cloud and can't figure out in California. I guarantee you when you
move to New York. Six months later you get us a man is placed school. When I got here, we ve got that now now are now where's all these bridge tunnel, people, whatever is a? U will suddenly begun at present. You will never find the new Yorker you visit does now you live there right and that was made
physician very strongly back then,
I believe in war shading. So that now knows judgmental. If you know the passes people go through
but that's what those were about this song is the most articulate statement of of that. I think you know it's like it's a much more forgiving version.
There have in these areas, were just like every these terrible. What am I gonna Spain, these guys like they now? They know that,
that is not gonna work,
Zog is a matter how much funding have they
they're trying to chase down something they can't recover. I mean it's a star. Bookseller debts is playing for time
It is delaying judgment.
Who doesn't want judgment
yeah I mean there's something about the song where you know cause like music becomes shaded by
who you were when you heard it in and what was going on, and I think
very, very the same way with places right know,
A place is in place. A place is who you were when you visited applies as views and in?
The song feels like that to me, you know: there's lots of places places I
First, when, when I was like nineteen and not happy
my life and trying to figure things out will for each time I took a trip. I was
herbal in college, I hated College Andrew.
You see Santa Barbara
it wasn't. The college's follows my fault. I just I made myself miserable in college, but
had a somebody. I sort of new and class who move to Dublin and shows like if you ever want to come to Dublin,
my couch. So I merely but
tickets, because I gonna take this trip to Dublin
and I went to Dublin an end for the rest of my life. I think Dublin will be tied to this feeling of
showing up in Dublin and being really yeah the whole.
I went to Dublin and I was still me yeah like I went to Dublin, I started and I want to do with my life. No so pretty blamed. I blamed Portland Fur, how miserable I was important for so long now.
I know that the time I was in Portland, you know that
Portland will never be seen on this earth again right. It was now he was run down bottles fine now, but
you can't believe how well is colony orders I pull his greedy back. The report is that it really is placed the world
but not for years, and I still get the buy when I go there, so I got to go to for that walk around. I still feel a little threatened,
reported organ of all places, but because I was a maslovs there, but the thing,
but the song again is that these people are there mature enough that they know what they're doing there
consciously trying to do it they're having a good time
The good time is informed by the fact that is not going to make a difference. That is its wish. The best of greater yeah
as of as I've got an order, I feel like I've learned to embrace the fact that a places and tireless objective, the end of June,
especially now that I tore and I go a lot of places. I've just learned
to just embrace my gut feeling.
Out of place. You know the fact I love Seattle, Seattle, my absolute favorite sitting in his country, and I note that in Portland and their similar in another way
and I dont have any sort of objective reason for that are then, when I'm in Seattle, I feel really have just makes its a city that makes me feel happy, and I dont have a specific reason,
It's very important for me that was used to live in a place, almost died in its place where people saved my life, and so it's got a bunch of different
by just I don't know what you mean you you do.
You can't really define what you did or didn't like about a place, and some of it has to do with this. I think I might have already called this line at some point, but you know the Christmas Carol win
Scrooge he's talking to Molly and Marley shaken his chain
As you may be an undigested bit of beef. You may I decision is just some. I ate you know and ended,
sometimes it's what it is like you, you didn't have enough sleep, you got there.
But the thing is I never
my assumption is that every town is good. I think what
we ve been attends, we ve had bad shows and you wanna go, I'm not going back there because they show is bad right and then, of course it is you want it back
what, if I saw some because now
a very good time end and the show is nice, so yeah
That's the thing, as you know, this couple fair forever programme
it's going to be a sad.
Replace revenue has absolutely nothing to do with proper and everything to do with clearly were when they went there totally. You know glaring at proclamation once I had a friend actually a friend whose hospitalization inspired
best of national ban proper was where they set him.
Yeah the elders showed up at his house one morning, so we can do this, the easy, where the hardware and is
often found out after he was gone. She helped me so they took him what
and he was. There was a
some people who that happens. You were into some bad stuff. You know me
Dude was not really a very bad stuff. He was a pretty innocent and good and smart, but he's a professor philosophy and turned out sometime
set absent hasnt, not for everybody in the hospital, a bell didn't, but now,
favorite podcast or by visiting. I only listen to the mountain goat, stop com. If you enjoy
you can listen to episodes of. I only listen to the mountain votes in your favorite podcast or by visiting. I only listen to the mountain goat, stop com. If you enjoyed what you just her consider listening to all of season, one available now season, two of I only listen to the mountain. Those is coming. This fall in which we will be discussing Johns, album transcendental youth as well as probably a lot of other stuff tat we stumble onto next up is one of our absolute most talked about shows conversations with people who hate me.
This. The show Dylan Marin, who you may know asked Carlos the scientist on night fail takes contentious on,
I'm conversations and move them offline this year,
and has been moderating conversations between people who
exchanged online negativity, Buzzfeed called them
show a must. Listen podcast of twenty eighteen.
These conversations are tents and breathtaking and gripping he's
conversations between a tram soldier
hey Marine, who supports the trans Bam. He talked to a woman who sent herself
a further messages as a form of digital self harm, and then there
Is this conversation between
a woman who wrote about why the tv show the office doesn't hold up to today's standards and a man.
Who told her. She should be burned at the stake for saying so: let's listen to episode. Twelve of conversations with people who hate me.
Earned at the stake, hey I'm Dylan Marin and welcome back to conversations with people who hate me. The show where I'd, take negative online conversations and move them from common sections and involves is to phone calls. Sometimes I have one on one conversations with people who have written negative things to or about me on the internet and other times I connect to strangers who have engaged in their own online negativity today I'll be connecting people. My first gasket Jaya, who wrote an essay about the american television, show the office specifically questioning. If the show holds up by today's standards, the ESA was treated out and in response to a man named top replied, you should be burned at the stake for disrespecting the office also stop being a pussy pc is for non self aware: pussies, okay, so first outside one unwanted Jaya, then I'll take one unwanted tom and then I'll connect the two of them to each other. Let's get started.
Hygiene are you? How are you I'm good, so you're, a writer? I am writer, tell me one that started its it's been around,
for a long time, writing writing day right. I got it I
I really started, realizing that this is what I wanted to do as a career toward the end of college. But at this point I have been doing it for about a decade, so you write very publicly online, yes adieu and sometimes
things you write on line Myra, yet the vehicles, so you recently wrote a piece critiquing. The television show the office. Yes, I d at what made you write that peace on the civil peace was essentially looking back at the office.
From where we stand and twenty eighteen,
and seeing how it feels. So I revisited it and sordid
to my horror and disappointment, found that I had a really hard time finding it as funny as I did when I first watched it and a lot of what the office
with is you know this very bad boss, this boss,
who says a lot of racist, sexist things and thinks there funny and serve traumatize? Is his employees and-
How does that look, and how does it feel at a moment or we're all talking about workplace harassed,
men and sexual harassment and
now. These things that have very real consequences have you ever
in criticised for being too politically correct,
ah, and I am asking this as someone who has always been willing to politically correct. You know it's funny. I think that I think I very much EU
to be the person that would do the criticising a really in a way. In what context, I think I was very enamoured with being the cool girl for a long time, but I think I also was fed the idea.
Being politically correct? Was that you were,
doing this to score. Brownie,
Hence with some I know
an entity rather than for the direct betterment of yourself and the people around you, so you
earn and being that person. I have certainly been accused of being too politically correct on thing right. Do you still of the office
since I have embraced being there,
social justice, warrior and and being that person I have certainly been accused of being too politically correct on thing right. Do you still of the office? I it
I dont think I will be able to give up the office. I
I think that there are a lot of things in it that I really love, I think,
maybe be a while before I sit down and watch it.
You know. I still think that there are so many good performances in the office. I think there are so many good jokes in the office.
I by no means one everyone to just complete,
we wash their hands of it, and I think that this was well. It's huh
Lee bad and we can just never talk about it. I just think it's always
this holds her to look at the art that we love
think about why we love it and what are some difficult
things in it, but you know you're still allowed to love
was just gonna ask: do you think that
criticising critiquing, a piece of art. A television show a movie, a book that your taking away from it now I dont think that critique
seeing something means you can appreciate it or enjoy it or be a fan of it. I think this is all all part of being a fan and all part of me
somebody who enjoys various forms of art. I wouldn't
it's rather live in a world where we can have these honest, difficult converse
oceans than just accept everything at face value. You don't look
any time we anytime
experience, art we're
experiences it and bringing
two, it our entire life experiences. I can't watch
the office as not a woman. I can't watch the
office as not,
percent of indian heritage. When I watch Michael Scott, you know make racist remarks to Kelly. I can't not be an indian woman when that happens, I and as much as the free
triggering, will trigger people hour against it. That brings,
and sometimes I can move pass them and see where the humorous, and sometimes I can't nobody-
watches a tv show in a vacuum and because of that
everybody is gonna, have their own experience and that's why I can't get mad if someone criticizes it because someone
he's gonna watch the office with their own contacts, and it's gonna bring up their own feelings to it that are going to be completely different than mine and I'll? Never xx!
brains that and they'll never experienced the way. I watch it view, and this is
great sideways behaviour cause in a tweet. Responding to that article, someone wrote, you should be burned at the stake, for
respecting the office also stop.
it is for non self aware pussies so
How does it feel to see a response like that? As a non self aware? Pussy has not is everywhere
I've certainly had people get mad at me online before about various things and and sometimes it it hits very personally,
this war in response to an article I may be wrote to me.
The personal I say that I wrote about my experience. I think I would have been a lot more upset or a lot more traumatized by it, but the fact that it was about the office.
I think. Let me let me step back from it a little bit just because I'm do it's about the office
I don't need the office in my life. I like the item as I'm happy that it exists and that its bright
joy to so many people, but it's not like a funding
It's all part of my identity that I was being attacked for
and who I was moored.
Curious about what may
love a piece of art, so much that
This is the sort of vitriol that they're gonna go after someone who gives it
In my opinion,
it was a mild critique, so Jaya
You curious about the person who wrote this tweet. I am. I definitely am
hey is this time.
It is when we get outside emu will bury my friend need to quiet and very attentively videogame Craig. I support that
You hear me. Ok, I can hear you great. This is perfect.
Oh Tom? How is your digging? Let's just start there?
it's going pretty well fitted the late night. It's raining now. Everything is all better. Now, my colleague the isolations you're living the idea.
Let's start here so only in as many details as you're comfortable sharing tell me about you. Ok,
please. I don't even know where to start
I have a dog who I love very much, and her name is a thin on and see the people on budget item she does. One cannot just recently started playing back about I'm a little on the job, your side, so I like the good way to lose weight, pretty quiet,
what school gonna guy like to read like a nice glad, the scotch and a fancy
I guess I guess so I I'll bring it up. The tweet that we are here to discuss is that, in response to sell goods essay about the television show the office, you wrote you
be burned at the stake for disrespecting the office, also stop being a pussy pc as for non self aware, pussies, so Tom. What inspired you to write that even the gentleman in saying that the office is not, it
it's a do great. No, it's actually a woman
The woman is saying that the office is not not politically
It doesn't really
It affects the thing and I find that my wife is a lot easier and less stressful. That way the office really.
Watch out with what you say because you're not so
had offended greatly by something and I'm the type.
Person, but I dont really take offense, keeping
and I find that my wife is a lot easier and less stressful.
That way, the office really had a wave
bringing something out of me that
it gives me a warm and finally on the inside, I'm not very good at all this hallmark stuff yet so like what is it about the office that gives you that warm feeling the basic? We tracked these people for ten years of their. Why me even grow for ten years and watching that show honestly, you know, did a really big thing for me emotionally in again, I'm not trying to get all my burden.
You know, I really did it made me think about things. I guess my father's got a little ruffled one when you wrote that article yeah, like I get the idea of being defensive about this thing that is nearing dear to you, but at the same time I also think that
What you wrote is offensive right. The idea that you told someone to burn at the stake, I'd I'd, call that offensive. That is definitely
Seven eyebrows shouldn't have said that that I did
ok, but you did do you do you regret saying occur
let me give you a keyboard answer how I'll take part I know now now,
because I'm I'm very unapologetic then- and I know full well
this is not the right way to conduct being a person.
Then I'm worried about two thousand and new year knew me hashtag black, her arm and here is side, be of designer I
I do want to change the person. Some people were described me as a at a dick
so. I'm really trying not to be a dead,
and what I said earlier was being-
and I am sorry for being a dick
I shouldn't, have been a dick, so why the hashtag none here, knew me the popular ass tag on twitter, not totally but like. Why, for you,
I can be perfectly
what's with you,
I'm not a very open minded person on the kind of person that,
please someone who is different than me- and I immediately kind of
We know in the spirit of full disclosure, that's been where people are different races.
people who are part of the lesbian Gay community. I know the El Gee, I don't know what the there's four letters and I dont know what they are algae. Bt too. I yeah yeah yeah yeah that part of it
remember that community- and you know, from this span of
a few months in particular from
being around all the different types of people and
to them and learning their story. I almost
your kind of stupid that I've been there.
Minded all this time
I know, and I'm sure you're comfortable with me talking about the com,
you you told me you, you were gay as it could
We discussed that, of course, I
no dude. If you told me that, like
there were three years ago. We
the eyes. I promise you
in writing on Iraq that we we
not be out in conversation right. You wouldn't even want to top right now.
Now he soon it. I found out that fact by we
then I would have been the end of that conversation and now
kind of kicking myself in the ass kids?
I'll give you a fucking poor guy like well things down like a pretty creature, Martha
I appreciate that the
and I did I wouldn't have even gotten the opportunity to do this. If we listen to what should I put a movie star right? Have you are lucky? Iran now has to radio waves hell yeah, but you are saying that you would not have even agreed to this conversation. A few years ago, the Iphone being honest with you,
You know our very I die out my head up, my ass at that point, and now it's
but my ass boys, like my chin in my no they're out so you know
more. I'm workin on Eddie, I'm still kind of an asshole heads.
Now I am working on it.
I'm gonna take something super cliche and then I'll start talking
I feel this is great. I think
close out my babbling bullshit people
our trying waiting to hoard, they are seeking to be
I don't think, there's enough,
are you going to understand,
Seeking to be understood.
Does it make any sense you I mean, I think a lot of people want to explain themselves more than they want to listen. Yet,
So without being said, are you ready to talk to the author of this essay about the office you? Yes, I m ready I'll. Take that as a yes
hello Jai. I did not know your name, I'm sorry, this a very pretty name. That's hey! But look at you guys, giant time. We're here were on the call altogether it. Let's get credit,
so. First of all, how are you guys feeling Tom? How are you feeling router, but I'd
I've had my coffee, so Clunbury, amicable, I'm, ok, thirty, eight, a j. How are you doing? I too have had coffee him, I'm feeling ok, perfect. Let's get a shout out to coffee, real, quick and we gotta go on visas, sponsoring this whole episode. Yet a general idea making may hold gave us exactly so too,
things started. I want you guys to get to know who you are beyond this moment the event or sector that on the internet, so Jaya Tell Tee
about you hi.
I I M a born and raised new Yorker. I am married. I have two cats hooker
Look. I've been a writer in some capacity for most of my career, whether that was me.
Doing it on the side. While I had other jobs
or me doing it full time,
right now, I'm a freelancer, so I am just
at the whim of any editor. Who wants to give me an assignment and pay me.
and my mother,
his white, my dad's from India Stoker, it's hell
like honestly, you and I would probably have a lot of the same tastes in comedy my dad
please me on on Monday Python.
I alright now Brooks.
As you know, this was aren't, I feel
My my deep
comedy sensibilities whatever they are were influenced by by these works.
So there is a lot there that I really really love and continue to love and I feel, like that's, always been a huge part of my life.
Now, Tom again in as many details as you're comfortable with telling
about you, ok, I'm Tom.
Damn. This has always been a tough question for you. Do Daphne what what am I like it?
I'm. You would probably tell you I'm fucking weird. I have a dog, her name. Is it
she just turned eighteen and dog years all, how will you kindly birthday two and five, eight and humanistic mistaken try to keep track. I just played her all the fat and furious movies. You got enough to watch the also fastened serious mistake. It's ok, which went the best who had said.
Ass of between five and seven. For me,
I'm a number three man. It's all about the Tokyo together, ass, a very near so switching gear is a little here Tom. Can you tell
Jaya why you wrote in response to her article you,
should be burned at the stake for disrespecting the office, also stop being a pussy pc is for non self aware pussies,
I would like to go on record as saying that I did indeed say that
Ok, I mean I got a little upset that you wrote that article. I understand that you know some of the thing.
They found the officer offensive to certain people, but they re
we do let everybody had it. Everybody gets the thought. I trade mark that by the let everybody gets a thought in the eyes which you know, I guess it
they presented to everybody, but I do not think out. One group of people in particular, which that would not I mean that would not very kosher with me, and I just
I think that today
become more of almost like a social necessity to find
the one thing or a group of things to be super funded at an eye,
kind of you know. I kind of
though, blue your article. Often you know saint like come on. You know it's it's fucking funny
you know tat? I think he said are correct me if I'm wrong, please that it
what kind of more or less doesn't
We belong on tv in our generation. Well, I think more of them
that I was trying to make- is that you
given these a lot of these conversations about sexual
ass meant in and outside the workplace and other forms of harassment, that it's not, that it's not that people can
watch it or enjoy it, but that
right now, at least for me, it was harder to watch
without immediately thinking of all these conversations and without
immediately being a little a little
to personal or a little too close for comfort. Ok,
I'm curious, do you think that
because I critique debts,
I was saying that it shouldn't be allowed to exist on a three year end
because I mean I'm sure you ve seen the show
enjoyed some parts of it. At least I have. I am still I likely
yeah. So so you do both jar, the shit.
Ray I already and that I have enjoyed allied. It was something that you know my my dad was the wind to introduce the office to me and it was a great bonding thing for near my modem to reduce it. To me I mean she brought this weird show home one day from the library. This was before the days of networks and I was kind of looking at the office. This is weird not really what I mean to you and I put it on and I couldn't I gotta go down that can put it down
Because I didn't want to feel anything, but
no, I feel like my dad when, when it was first on, he had heard about that
british version of the office and then with super excited when
who's coming on and my dad nigh were already big Steve Corral fans from when he was on the daily show
and so you know we are, we
watch this together and really enjoyed it. So part of you,
and maybe I didn't do this well enough in my peace, but I I was
reed disappointed to find myself feeling this way, because I didn't want to feel anything but complete, unobstructed love for the office.
Ok and then I found that a lot of my feelings were a little more a little more complicated, and I wanted to express that, but also that you know, I don't think that keeps me from appreciating it. I think it's always worth it too to look at the arts and the things that we love and think about
Why we love them and do we love them in spite of something? Do we love them because of something? So as someone who is a decade younger when I first started watching it
realizing the ways I've changed and the real realising the ways that I now react to this showed differently,
and I did a decade ago so tight
now hearing wide Gyre wrote this. I want kind of bring up of appointing
made in your tweet, which is the idea of political correctness and set out the idea of political career so Tom, I don't wanna put words and in your mouth, but
think it's fair to say: you're, not a fan, fair to say
I'm not a fan of political correctness. What do you think the problem with political correctness is
it's too much I know about.
Where'd that a little bit better and fancier, but I think people something
forget that we have the first amendment and it really does with new say you think whatever you want it,
Because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make them
were you wrong? I personally
by a lot of shit like
I don't know if you if I would like a different reason. You called me a racial fleur, it my boy,
maybe a little bit. But at the end of the day that you saying that to me shows me that that what you're saying is a reflection about how you feel about yourself.
Oh, but I just try to live my life and I guess that collides with other people's lives.
This throne conversation that we're having I now so Tom you brought up.
The first amendment again and it's funny you know
the way I kind of sea this podcast, as I feel like this podcast is,
like the continuation of the first amendment. It's like. Yes, you are free to say whatever you want yeah, but here is how you can listen to some one who was affected by it. You know I mean so bitterly footnotes,
These are the footnotes of the first amendment Bagua. I always think you know
I agree. I think, there's a lot about the first amendment that people forget. You know yeah you're allowed say what everyone and
people are allowed to criticise you for it or disagree with you or whatever, but
I always wonder that its. I guess you can say what everyone want, but
Why are you then choosing to say that specific that year- and I am also a writer- so I think about that- alot understandable, so so Tom? I think that the best way to put it is that I it's like it's not just
footnote to the first amendment? It's like the first amendment. God bless.
It exists, and this is what comes after you know the after
the aftermath of the first right out. A lot of the article was about how the off
This makes light of workplace abuse their Tom. Have you experienced workplace abuse, I'm a former marine and I don't think I've ever work anywhere around
female. Ever in my wife Jaya have you,
explicitly. Refusing me promotions are
and I think you know Tom, it sounds like the places we worked have been relatively different
You know I've. I definitely have worked around a lot of women, but I think a lot of a lot of the abuse I've gotten.
Has never been anything so outright as to have you know someone physically
attack me or assault me,
no I'm good unhappy about here. No one, you know explicitly refusing me promotions are opportunities because of my gender or my race,.
None of that, but there are certainly has been comments about my body, because I'm a woman comments about
out my race and my background that I'm pretty sure o white person wouldn't have gotten
and nothing so serious as to completely derailed?
I career or even derail my day but just stuff that
over time. Piles up
and and I notice more and I notice that other people don't experience
or get the same way, and I do and then I noticed when other people get it worse than I do.
I think it's more just been something that, because of my expire
and since I have been made aware of a lot more work go make perfect.
I mean I think people really are a of the environment.
I have seen a little bit of it. I guess, but not probably not nearly to the extent that
but you have Tom. You mentioned to me that twin,
Eighteen is new year new you, so
talk us through wire in that position.
Damn, we got it. We got deep, aren't I guess
then seeing things there are different. I as late ARM
a lot of a lot of guys did I work with our
African American, I'm actually the only
occasion, man in the office
I learned a lot stuff started. You know
looking more and more into like why you know people of the other tat black people in particular, are having you know,
you're so upset now, because of the way things are going in this country. Like I'm starting to understand it a little bit more, I used to just write it off is, like all of you know, damn their death
we're not, then I guess, but now it's not over nothing. You know that just go back to being
our open minded. This is interesting if, if I can be so bold as to kind of identified, the theme of this conversation only shot fired by my shots fired, I think
I think the theme
it is essentially like we
these are what we are exposed to Jaya. You were talking about the comedy you are exposed to and how it influenced who you are as a person who you are. As a writer Tom, you were talking about what kind of things you are exposed to, how you changed when you started working with mostly black people. So, given that I
this question is for both of you, Tom I'd, love, to hear you first, but this all started because of the office. Now that you ve talked a giant, do you see
the office differently at all. Or can you understand why someone might not see it the way you see it,
I still go. I figure
work on that whole ass back my down. That's it becomes
but I'm what a lot of people would describe as a harder
I'm not going to stop.
About it in the way I do, but I definitely I condemn
I appreciate where you're coming from, could I didn't even think about you know not being exposed to,
workplace like that ever the first thing that popped into my mind was damp you'd, better, not be disrespected my off. So I guess I didn't
now, I didn't really put myself in your shoes and you
having those experiences and thing. First, then I mean that's alien to me. You know- and I condemn
I appreciate we are coming from on the article
then I'm sure a lot of people that have been exposed to that type of.
You know negative.
Behaviour in the office juncture,
Don't we share this now
a giant that Eve.
Conversation with Tom is there anything use see
think about slightly differently. Tum. Thank you referred for
so being so open minded about this. I I feel-
In the same way, I think that, for
for anyone, it's very easy to get caught up
in your own environment. If we're talking about being a product of our environment,
Most of our environments consist of a lot of people who who think like us look like
have our same values
and even if we make a really big effort to try to
expand our world view beyond that. You know it's really
It's really hard, and sometimes you lose track of being able to do that and I feel like for myself its economy.
An reminder not to get stuck in the bubble that men and
I feel like this has been really great because Tom, obviously you where I come from pretty different backgrounds, but it's been a while.
Since I think I've been able to have a conversation with somebody who comes from such a different place than me and the fact
and I get nervous about it, sometimes bathing the fact that
This has gone really well and we hear each other and we understand each other like that's just it just feel so valuable.
I appreciate the two I mean who had Dylan had me up and said: yeah man you're back up what you said. I like hell, yeah, that's what people should be. Do you know that
I don't know the first amendment the great thing use it to its maximum potential. That's what we're doing right now: yeah yeah, that's overdue in the aftermath of the aftermath of
an earlier to talk.
But the show there were here to talk about Tom,
what are you love about the office gems.
The second man, ok, I mean
yeah, I'm not trying to get all hallmark. I'm not really get it all that. If I was a lady I won't be a giant.
The little man
I don't know he pays attention which
You know I love you and
I don't know man do up this might be shot by, but man. If, if, if I was gay
probably go for a gem you'd, probably in government in mortgage after I get that agenda presented earlier, and we can all do I mean you know yeah, so Jaya bloody.
Love about the office, God will. I think that it's ridiculous just to say it's funny but like. I know that such a subjective thing, but I think that at its best it
really just you know brought up all these little everyday things that you don't realize how ridiculous they are and then, once you see it in your eyes, you realize how funny and ridiculous they are- and I think that's
What initially made me love it? So much is
is seeing these things
you would normally think is very mundane or very just annoying and and just like the deep
absurdity of that yeah.
I love that about it.
You think you're allowed to critique something that you love yeah,
Baker. Take things I love all the time
our great. I mean I don't think you were critique. Something
If you dont at least have some sort of connection to a whether it be good or bad yeah yeah,
I do you think you can critique something they love gaps.
I think that was actually a conclusion that it took me a long time to realize. I think I
for a long time was very
uncomfortable whenever somebody came after something that I loved, because I
didn't want have to. I didn't want to have to
justify my love for something against someone else's critiques
they think. Similarly, I learned that right. You know if
If something, if you're going to care about something, it's
irresponsibility to to think about it and know everything about it and know what other people hear about it, and just because I
of something and someone,
doesn't or someone else is obsessed with something that I dont understand doesn't mean. I can't
college that or appreciate that or.
You know, learn about why they
love it the way they do and why that's different? For me, I think that yeah,
Think that's important for all our
I were closing this out, but Tom since it's what brought us here, I have to ask: do you
Jaya should be burned at the stake.
At an enterprise person do not endorse the burning of anyone at the stage of highly high.
The illegal. Had many we go for about three hundred years,
I meant that I like I like, oh, which reference he knew I gotta business, so yeah, yeah or Joan of ARC, whoever you, whoever you got to lose their jobs.
Now now you shouldn't be burnt at the stake, your lovely woman, your often thank in actually, I wanted to
like a sub question, please,
you guys like sushi both of you yeah sushi next time
the Oregon gonna hit you up doing the ass. If you wanna get them sushi
we better all get together. I would I have loved okay, so we're gonna get some earlier. If that is the great art I love, this has been wonderful. I just have to ask: is the title of the show? I am one hundred percent sure I know the answer, but this,
It was called conversations with people who hate me, Jack
do you hate Tom, not at all and Tom. Do you hate Jaya,
with the right now is wage yard is like regime as if it were he organ it. I wanted to keep you go. I know he liquid Falcons response so Tom. Thank you so much Jaya. Thank you! So much and I like you, I guess I will see both on the internet. Yeah good, bye, dump point.
If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit W W w dot conversations with people who hate me dot. Com for more information. Conversations with people who hate me is the production of night fell, presents Vincent Kashshi OWN is the sound engineer and mixer Christie Grasp and as the executive producer, the theme song is these dark times by caged animals. The logo was designed by RUB Wilson and this pod cast was created, produced and hosted by me. Dylan Marin, special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Mauler and our publicist Megan Larsen, we'll be releasing episodes every other week. So I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation. Until then remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen name. These doctor you,
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Transcript generated on 2020-02-15.