« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 1012 - Brené Brown

2019-04-22 | 🔗

Brené Brown’s degree in social work and her research into conditions like empathy and vulnerability led to one of the most viewed TED Talks of all time, millions of readers of her books, and celebrity boosters like Oprah Winfrey. But it was her academic work on shame that started it all and is the aspect of her work that resonated strongly with Marc. Brené talks with Marc about the evolution of her work, how it’s reflected in social and cultural changes, what her research told her about hope, and what is the biggest challenge of adult life. They also discuss her new Netflix special, The Call to Courage. This episode is sponsored by Ramy on Hulu and Capterra.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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and that's pretty exciting. To me, Bren Brown is A. Social work researcher she academic, but yeah. I don't, I didn't know much about her. She she was. She is a research professor at the University of Houston. And you know she is a chair where I think the graduate College of Social work, but I didn't know much about her a few years ago. I saw a a TED talk, I think a lot of you have seen it it, Which is called the power of vulnerability. And I just watched, I watched a follow up to that called listening to shame, but for some in a few years ago, I watched the power of vulnerability and it just fucking blew me away yeah think about the connections between vulnerability and courage, and you know what we perceive as weakness and how we move through the world with
instead of wholeheartedness- and you know I know it sounds like some self help jargon and in an perhaps you can frame it that way, but there was something about the way she laid it down that this problem. Can you hear that motorcycle thank the guy across the street we know: who's got several old cars and the motorcycle. I don't know if you heard it, but I mean this location? This temporary studio, probably for a few months, fix the garage, an I'm noticing that the sound coming up off the street is challenging. I know some of you are tired of me talking about sound. I can hear it because once the files compressed, but I'm living it, I'm living it. But Bernabe brown- I you know it's so moved me. I did everything I could to get in touch with her back then, and I did get in touch with her. I eat CALL Terry somehow I don't even know how I got her email after to be on the show. I was in Houston and I remember scrambling to figure out how do I get ahold of Renee Brown? I gotta talk to her about this vulnerability thing because you know I'm locked
in a cage of self, and I want out and she seems to have the keys it didn't pan out. We exchange emails once and it just didn't pan out. It drifted away from me and then now she, at this Netflix Special out. That is basically a Knicks mention of her talking about this stuff. Burn a brown, the call to courage, so I gotta go into that and you can watch it now. Thirty out and it's still like. I found it very provocative and thought for an I'm, not really a self help. Guy and I don't know we talk a little bit about the nature of that in if it is self help, but I was very compelled by her you know founding most of her or ideas in facts in research. 'cause. That's the way she is. But but for some reason it just resonated with me and
I find her to be very impressive and I an it was a very much a Ricky interview for me because I am a little skeptical of broad based self help. In terms of you know I I know you can watch something and find it inspirational, but how do you apply this stuff to your life? It is one of these interviews that I was very excited to do an I wanted to handle it properly, but I wanted to really engage in have conversation with her about this stuff that she knows about and also you. It might be my own personal problems, but she's, not a therapist, but anyway. I'm tired, I just got back from San Diego Oman. In no matter what anybody says or thinks about stand up, but yes, sometimes I'm just amazed. You know what
Think about where people come from, I am you know. I started a as a club comic. I am a club comic, whatever your movements around comedy or whatever, when anyone comes from. However, you want to categorize comedy alternative storyteller this or that I am a died in the wool. Fuckin' stand up comic, and started in the fuckign trenches of one nighters in Boston and comedy clubs around the country, and that was where it happened, that's where I made my bones and still do clubs obviously, but like I've gotten a following. Many of you come out to see me and I can do venues that are larger and filled with people. That specific. We come to see me but now that I'm working out this new material yeah I want to get into the trenches. I want to do a five show run yet comedy clubs, so I can work it out and get my chops in order and get make sure. I'm staying strong make sure I'm working out by the way, I think about a couple pounds
couple pounds back: sweeping the diet not even play terrible ship but yeah keeping the cashew business in business and not great, not great, but good for you, but you know. Take it easy right, Cashews goddamnit, there, good zero but I get down there an anti ad, this great guy, this kid Luke shorts who he's actually a door guy at the store, which is what I used to be and always item and I'd seen him do a few minutes. So I had him come down and open for me. Did great job bragging open for me, some more. And J you know it's nice to have a familiar face and you know I go up there and I'm laying it out and I'm doing long sets. I got a lot of stuff. That's a little open ended that I'm working through, but just to be,
in the club to be in a low ceiling club. That's it's a couple. One hundred people most of the people definitely came to see me. I didn't think San Diego would come out 'cause. There was part of me that thinks like it's, a beach town, it's a beach city is laid back. It is way back I don't know, people seem to travel there specifically to walk around in shorts and flip flops and drink in public. There's. A lot of people loopy walking around drunk e with a half filled drinks in their hands in shorts, and you know scan through he dressed at different stages of hitting bottom. But look that's judgment. Call maybe they're just having fun, but I know what it looks like. There's a difference between fun and someone should help this person anyway. The club was great. Staff was right and just really attentive, but just the dynamic of the room that first night was just, beautiful man is just. People that have that interaction with so many people that came out, and I just like
be wary, folks, of yourselves, trying to separate stand up genres like oh, that guys, a storyteller this guys a joke, I that may be true, but make sure you understand that if you're doing the job is stand up. Your just a fucking comic and that's what I've been doing almost more than half of my adult life and just moments. Yeah after I've done, one show I'm a fifty five year old cat and after I've done one show on a Saturday night and I'm a little tired and went good just going into that. Second, one feeling it open up feel the improv grooves right, yeah, those neural pathways that allow for riffage are sort of like opening up. I can ride some waves and find some new beats and kind feel room. What a fucking, beautiful, fucking again a comedy and the idea. So I want to thank the folks down there at American Comedy Club for really being Greathouse thank Luke, Schwarz, and I just and also
yeah San Diego. I don't know much about it, but I do know I had some of the best fuckign sushi in my life and beyond with you. It might be worth going back down there to eat at the sushi place. Look at it in California! There's a lot of sushi around there's a lot of sushi everywhere and media, pursue she's, not unlike mediocre, indian food. You know what you're going to get yeah. Rarely are you amazed? You know like, I, I feel like eating sushi. Ok, let's just go, eat sushi indian food, the glass just go that indian place, but you except that it's going to be okay, it's a little better than others for whatever reason, but this shit was fucking insane place called Dookie Yuki, Sushi lounge in San Diego. It was like three kinds: three degrees of fatty tuna, which is fresh as fuck. I said I swear to God. I would go back to the sushi. It looked like
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major part in the new Lynn. Shelton film is actually going to be screening at the Boston International Film Festival, Boston at the Somerville Theatre, on Friday April 26th, that's this Friday. I had no idea but it is I just I saw someone tweeted it. So that's great. That's like that is that's like blocks away from where I lived in an attic when I was start now doing paid work as a comic. I lived in an attic in Summerville in one thousand, eight hundred and eighty nine is sure something was not a cool place, but some real theaters are cool place. So it looks like you can get ticket for this Friday April 26th, a screening of sort of Trust, Boston, folks, and also obviously my tour dates are coming up and you know is selling out people, and I you know I got. I got I'm going to keep doing this. Even it's annoying, but I'm doing some of those
dates I believe, are sold out comedy club on state in Madison May 23rd, 24th and 25th. I believe that sold out. But if you want to drive to Saint Louis June, 13th 14Th, fifty that helium comedy club. I think those are still available August first, second and third, at good. It's comedy club in Raleigh. I don't know if that's sold out, they added a show August, ninth or August, in fact, in August tenth in Portland at Revolutionary Hall, there's tickets for those shows majestic theater, Dallas TX. Go get him August, 22nd August 23rd, Paramount Theater, Austin, Tx August, twenty, The word them theme worth Theater center in Houston, Texas, the Vogue Theater in Vancouver September; sixth, listen to that guy, the Moore Theater in Seattle September, seventh, the VIC in Chicago twenty, the Masonic Temple in Detroit September, twenty one pant ages, theater in Minneapolis love it the Mirror Theater in Philly on October,
at seven hundred and thirty PM to Kennedy Center. That's a big deal and a big room. Buy tickets! Please Washington, Dc October 11th through Shubert Theater in Boston October 12th. I believe I'll be doing two shows there. Seven in ten I'm shooting my special and then after special after I've worked all those months to get to that point. I'm going to blow off some steam the next week at the James, Polk Theatre in Nashville on October 18th and then on to the Tabernacle Theater in Atlanta, GA on October 19th, and then the 26th. I will end the ark of the event that is the hey, there's more tour at the Masonic in San Francisco on Oct 26th. All right, I feel Oe what a good time to talk to bring a brown. What a good time to talk, I I just I love her. I respect
I like I like talking to her and and her Netflix special the call to courage streaming now, and it was a real honor and exciting to have this conversation with Renee Brown. So now I will share it with you, the weekly shirt on yeah. I read about Caitlin one of my books. You do which book and I remember- but I just talk about going to Philly with me with my grandma. Well, I grew up in Albuquerque, so you know I I know Piggly wiggly and somebody sent me this shirt. I grew up in Kirke New Mexico. For the most part. I don't know that yeah. I know actions were familiar. That's good yeah, even on ski slopes with you, we know what you're up to, but we know the overdressed lot of equipment thing over accessorize. I understand we know. We know that it's a country, it's not a state. Until a country
I mean, there's really still people there like reasonable people that want us to seed from the union yeah, it might happen they might have their window in the next few years. So it seems like it's a shitshow yeah. That's the only thing that's holding us together in a weird way, this Federale system, but it's starting to look like well, you know what do we need to be part of it, for we don't want them. I want California to come here. Let me stay yeah, that's it yeah yeah yeah so yeah I went to. I was in London and I was wondering about that. Do you travel internationally? Yes, not tons, but yes, 'cause. I know something about a lot of stuff. We're talking about how you talk about. It is uniquely american, and I just was wondering if the Cultural shame actually is exported in a way where your way of handling it is a language they understand it translate
if there is there are some words that are that are that people struggle with like when I say like in the leadership book. I talk about. Let's rumble like let's have a hard conversation working right up with pointed ears and, like sometimes I'll, be like what is this from yeah. I can write and like a hard conversation right now like we like it yeah, but they don't know what you're talking about it, and sometimes they do. I mean it's interesting. We did a training in London. Probably I don't know two and a half years ago now, and there were fifty countries of origin represent Ed, and everyone was like the thing that we have most in common yeah, a shame in our fear vulnerability and they got that they got that yeah I mean it's, it's a cross cultural with. Well, that seems to be like the the thing that you've achieved in like work. I'm like I why the first time I reached out to you is like three years ago. I think,
if you remember, but I was in houston- I was sort of like I gotta talk to her and then I don't. I don't know how I figured out your email, but we did have an email exchange and I was like I hope this podcast, I think, would be good because I just watched- I think the first TED talk- and I was like like working on a lot of the same issues that this woman is, but I'm doing it with my hands on out here in the world yeah for real yeah, and I'm I'm more and like I'm talking about a bit for myself, I'm in the world working on it right in and I'm like, I did so I got to talk to a bit see I had to be careful about this coming into this because you know it would be very easy for me just to start talking about my own problems in. Have you help me fix them I don't know that I'd be good at that, like I'm like a little researcher he'll, they self like right yeah for your new you've. Never done you've never been a therapist. Never so you don't have that. No! I is trained in that program, but I went to research route. Well, I don't care for people.
Not much one on one or the either really I mean what I want is good. I just don't. I can be a terrible therapist. Why? Because of the it is sort of like you know, tough love instinct be sort of like you know like here's. What you need to do so you're all set yes, I I got a little bit in that I've added me, but paradoxically, I also have like a. I care giver and measurement thing where I do like are you know like all right, yeah right, you, you might go down with the ship. I go down to ship, possibly life and then but id resemble the whole time. We were thinking right right, like you got me into the ship me out. You know like right now, who's going to help me yeah, it's gonna help me. This is great. This is great. You suck. Where did you grow up in Texas, born in San Antonio and lived there for a long time ago? On an then Houston,
so. Here's to never Austin well went to Utah. Ok: horns how many kids in your family, I'm the oldest of four ok, so kids, yeah and you've said I've heard you say: you're you're, the fifth generation Texan yeah, your family motto is a lock and load. Is that what it was I'm trying to get change, but it's gonna take an active, so I guess so what was it? What was the family business? What would the family business? I mean my dad's a lawyer. I was a lawyer yeah lesser of business yeah I like is. He had a texan and sort of oil and gas lawyer. He was the effort into a retired yeah, suburban, cowboy hat, right, yeah oil and gas, where yeah representing the oil companies, not the good guys. When did that When did that start? When did you realize that, in what that implied, uhm yeah erase like yeah it's interesting 'cause, he's conservative he's raised for not conservative, kids and they're, really all of us yeah. Well, that makes sense right:
it does you think one would go the way of the but my mom's, my mom's, like an ACLU card carrying. Oh so you had both sides socialist. Yes, there are no longer married. Ok. Why did that happen? I think it was twenty. So long time you were out yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, the oldest, I was some other ones had take ahead, how they took yeah. Well, we all tickets in our own way right yeah, because I was the oldest I lived through it and they yeah yeah, and so when you're growing up way like if we know the meat puppets are, I do know, and I were probably around the same age, so you're kind of rock in total, yes shocking, Houston, Texas, girl, yeah, trouble yeah yeah, always twenty two years coming up on twenty? Congratulations. Thank you big deal. We waited awhile, though right yeah, I didn't mention and everything I need the first time in my life
people I got to over twenty two MIKE Ma you feed into the good part your bottom. Let's not have been that great yeah. Now I and I had a really high bottom. Actually, so I feel pretty lucky. Of course you did yeah Jennifer if I don't get to censor you're somebody's going to like glues, complete control ever no well pretty tight yeah so like how you get it a little bottom. It like that. I mean mine was relatively low, but it wasn't like you know. I wasn't living on the street because there's some part of your brain that no matter how fuckedup get their sort of like alright. You have that part where it's like this enough. This is enough. I was actually doing the last day of graduate school. When I was doing my masters in social work, we had to do a Genogram which is like a family map. So I called my mom and I was like hey. Can you walk me through this Genogram yeah? It's like different shapes and Ryan's, and so she's like what happened this person, just like service deliver alcoholism not having this person over this weekend, I was like
we shut yeah, and I thought about that with my propensity for wildness in general right and then quit drinking that After graduation and smoking cigarettes, which I still miss- oh yeah, I'm on nicotine lozenges always are. You are yeah. I go on and off him, but, like I just couldn't, I don't want to smoke, but I want something I don't know nicotine, but I want to smoke. You have nothing. Nothing! Caffeine, zero, yeah, the love of the masses you have yes, maybe I don't know some some days depending social. Most of the alcoholism runs up your parent, your mom's life, like I you know, I was wondering 'cause, I'm an amateur psycho psychologist. I know that's why I love your podcast yeah fix me. I can't fix you can fix Maine. Well, I just I'm curious about like the thing 'cause, I'm looking at you watch the two TED talks. I watched a new Netflix special, which was great it was sort of you seem to be evolving the message and it's
the message that you've sort of constructed out of you know shame as a basis through bone ability through courage, in redefining bravery in and also all the precautions of both sides of this yeah is a you know. A personal way to you know self discovery in better behavior and you know better the humans, better families, better communities and, ultimately, there's a possibility that you could save the World Renee, and I appreciate that yeah. It's a lot of work and thank you for thank you for the appreciation, you're going to get credit, yet the world will be saved and there will be a monument to you that you'll be uncomfortable with a large statue. I think, when I was looking at it I would
compelled me in terms of trying to understand. Is that, like I knew some like? Where do you 'cause? You say it, but you don't really say well. You came from you know in terms of like you know, when you talk about therapy during your breakdown TED talk you're, your sort of like you know, family stuff. No, that clearly did it yeah so, but, like I guess my question, and I think we should probably talk about these points. So people know why I'm asking this is that that part of the equation that you know when you talk about the power of vulnerability, which is your trip yeah and it's like I'm sort of on the precipice of some of that and I've been working at it from a different way, perform in front of crowds and because of my background, my sort of fractured, and I just buy instinct, would throw myself into uncomfortable situations constantly to sort of how to fortify
and who I am. I don't know why I didn't do it personally, but I wanted to drag audiences through that for three decades, but interesting that you just leaned into that vulnerability and put yourself out there. What do you think compelled that but see it's like It's a vulnerability that, like in another point you talk about. What is you know when you are public with something with your story with your information. You know what I can do in this room with you or what I can do in front of a crowd. It may not be something that I can do in the long term, in a one on one relationship got it yeah that sounds like you have Vab owner ability that you're talking about or that you put forth in front of people is very different. The end and then sort of doing the day to day showing up with
whole heartedness with an actual per other one. Other person would actually ask you that you have a relationship with a very easy easy go from town to town, and it is your horn yeah and get everyone crying yeah and then go like I gotta go yeah, you know, email the site. You know that it is an, I think, the hardest moments I have still are personal. I think there's a difference between vulnerability and intimacy. What is your age required of on ability? Yeah for a reckless at the end right to Missy is another step deeper and really braver. Yeah I do, and within that requires, like vulnerability, plus trust, the long haul. I think it. I think it's Rick. Here's vulnerability, plus trust, plus a strong sense of self worth right. This show were thing keeps coming up yeah, I guess, like you know my reaction to it all was in. Let me come
this way. I assume that you came from some sort of out of control environment that eventually drove you to not have that happen in your life. I think that's fair, that you know that your interests like, as you said in in your work, is you know like how do I get around this phone ability thing? What research you I have to do to not make might take to maintain my defensiveness in a righteous way. Just so uncomfortable yeah, that's exactly what I did yeah. I did not want the answer to be the answer. I wanted to do the research defend my way of being in the world, Russia right and and that the it blew up in your face, which led to a breakthrough and and as sort of like you know what, if any of of how it all fits together, shame and vulnerability and the repercussions of that and how they ripple through all at all levels of human activity. Yes,
I think that's right. I think that I spent my entire life trying to outrun outsmart vulnerability, yeah, and I think my plan was to get that ical evidence to support my way of being in the world right so unit. When you started school, you you're interested. Were you aware that your interest was was social work and that that was your channel through which to do this? I mean at what were your interests heading into this now, because I I didn't finish, college shows twenty nine. I started a graduate from high school in seventeen hitchhiked across Europe for six months came back kind of went in and out of college for a couple years got kicked out, get out for what grades? Oh really, not because I got bad grades. I just want to I stopped going: are you just getting a dispatched yeah and I didn't I usually hired- should ditched in withdrawn, but I Didn'T- and I kind of got a job here like in the corporate so after taking calls in Spanish. Spanish. That's good. Well, I mean back then I and and and yeah yeah. I was yeah yeah. I took
here's a french, and so I could speak Spanish for Att is crossed but I am out of Att mean Hombres Renee. You are that lady. I was that lady and then every now and they would be like they throw something at me. The superphone techie be like, like the word. Jose, It's not like. That's not a phone jack yeah but then- and I went back to school- probably mid. He Sierra at and wanted to be? A history major and I had to walk through the Social Work Department to get to the history building at University of Texas and when I was walking through, I was like what is going on in here like it was amazing, like there were these like task group center. Just all these, like cool things on the wall. That said hey. Do you want to do this rally, or do you want to work with these kids? You know- and I was like this- is really interesting, though I got to the history department, everyone I talked with M70 white
with ginormous foreheads right and I was real academic yeah. I don't fit here right, so the social work thing E felt, like you know, there's something proactive going on. There's excitement there's optimism here and I was an activist already said there is my work yeah for sure yeah a like in a we play like you're out there doing the stuff grassroots. Yes, because I was also when I worked for eighteen t and it's been young and then eventually in English yeah. I was a union organizer. So at a union Stewart, so yeah, ok, right, yeah, old school, old school solinsky, yeah, yeah yeah okay! Well, this makes sense to me and because I think that social work, it is very noble and necessary profession that you hear very little about amazing and- and I don't know what condition the you know, how it works on a state level or national level, but it seems highly necessary the position of social worker and I never hear anything about it. Yet
were quiet, you just don't want to live without us so like if you've got a kid. That's on drugs in trouble, we're going to help you if you've got a parent getting discharged from a hospital that needs resources. You're, not going without us. If you mean like we do everything from policy works right. You know therapeutic or clinicians, laying on my therapist in such a worker in is it relative to state funding and that kind of stuff I mean. How does it work? I mean every policy, I mean state funding, federal funding, nonprofit, finding some private practice right across the board. For you right away, decided I'm not going to be a therapist, I'm not gonna sit in the rooms with these people whose lives are falling apart or what have you? I thought I thought. Maybe I was I don't know. I think I thought about it, for I went to Graduate School University of Houston because they had the only political, social work concentration in the country. So I went to like a realpolitik activism path, macro social work. The therapy stuff did not interest me as much like I wanted. Consumer of it, but I didn't want it like it
thing where the social work axeman start where people are and walk side by side with them, the company added to walk west via and I'm like. Let's just see the up and say here's what's going on, you need to fix this and you know right leader check at the door, yeah yeah, and so when I realized that wasn't really help went, I was like not interested so, but you you do know. That is how that that is how it goes. But I mean in the sense that that was not the area you wanted to do now. It right now like to walk with people on their journey. Yeah yeah, you want to you, I guess I I it's. I wrote down like the idea of the east, you know this fine line between control and and simplify yeah. I live on that one yeah, that's right! That's my favorite line is really weird that you, like you kind of know me better than me. People do right. No, I don't yeah yeah. We, like the control thing, like I thought that was like really embedded deep like hard to pick up on.
It's not it's it's it's some! It's not Smith ended and I'm not I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Obviously, but I curious about, like you know where this all comes from his I struggle the struggle. Do you know what I mean? I know you do yeah I get it MIKE. I like, for whatever reason you I'm doing this weird bit as that of my past right now, I'm working on this piece of comedy, that's based based on my obsession with the circus freaks. When I was a child, an it start, it started to dawn on me that, like I had these books about the original Pt Barnum Circus, freaks bearded. Ladies siamese twins, you know these were people who were on display You know, and I read about them and I went to see whatever was left of the touring circus free community at the Albuquerque State, fair, and I was trying for some reason recently because of my own struggle, trying to with a whole hearted life
you know what was that about, and then I started to think about how uncomfortable I was as a kid because my parents were so consuming and selfish and without boundary and unable to nurture and all these things that I've really investigated a lot an I realized. There was probably some part of me that was looking at these performers, whether they were being exploited or not. They were owning themselves. 'cause. They had no choice. You know this guys. Gotta have body growing out of his side and he's fucking dressing. It so like. I think I d be ok with this haircut. You know there was some. You know now that God, just finding I'm. They had no choice choice but to believe in tech right where what is convulsion a whole lot right, just exhausting so like. If this was sort of it's all been very, very relevant to me. You know what you're doing, because it's only I'm fifty five and my heart is breaking because of how cynical I've
become an how you know how I was willing personally to surrender and think that this type of compromise like it's not like I don't want to change, but maybe I don't have time or you know, I'm just going to have to live with this you know, I know, there's some other part of me that I think it for most people, this vulnerability part is probably pretty young emotionally and somehow or another wherever it happened. Whatever happened, they decided to protect that that kid, the walls rights were die. So when you open that up, you know at at age fifty- and you know in your emotional state, you know those strategies. You know ten
with the same sort of raisin and sensitivity. Air yeah, I fear, but the sad thing is, is the the child. This rage, you know as a child, is sort of like you expected, but when a grown man is raging like a seven year old yeah, it's dangerous and out popped up yeah, you know, and I knew I was balancing all the not just you know we recently of just tires yeah. You know what, though you know it's crazy. What is in my experience, this is the user researcher. I don't think I think mid life is when as well as normally come down. I think I don't. I don't experience a lot of people in there. You know in their confused 20s or perfect 30s yeah and then like go get him 40s. Like forty, I mean most people
to do the engage in that process. You just described really mid life. It's really in your 40s and 50s. Where people are like this arm, african killing me like. I cannot get it used to keep me safe, but I can't fricking breathe right. I cannot breathe in right. It is no longer serving me right, and so I you think I Do you think what you and I do thank you are kind of a bear. In a really weird time in your life, which I think is why you see people doing a lot of midlife weirdness right, but you right, but those sort of fall under the the rubric of even what you've put together has. What does shame you know manifest when you when you're guarded, you know are those things that you do to maintain it I'll cost right and that life is a dangerous. Why, for everybody involved some
no yeah? It's like. I was a clock in the big book. It's like that, your NATO that yeah it will pick up anything in the vicinity and Josh destroy it in order to maintain its core that thing, what it's the weird thing about you know you have you do have a choice it these crossroads. You know how you're going to live your life and you like. If you want to be a safer person- and you know that you're up in these ways, I mean either you're going to walk through it or you just going to shut down all together and and I inside and you actually, when you get to that crossroads. If you even see that you're at a crossroads, if you choose to not. Acknowledge I think you actually become more dangerous 'cause, you double down on the armor, but you might also isolate. I mean oh yeah, you can for sure isolate right so which is less dangerous to most people, but to you it's just a health plan. I think most people would argue, at least in my field, that psychological isolation is the most dangerous human condition. We experience for the individual for society both
because he might snap yeah- and I don't think it's dramatic- is a snap. I think it is. I think anyone you're connected to is Woon did by it, and I do when we see people snapping it's driven, often by psychological isolation right, which is enforced by Techno. Gotta go isolation and the ability to have a life alone feels very active and also nameless in the type of behavior you can engage with in a online totally, because we confuse communication with connected us and all the social media tools which I love and used to. But they're, not connection tools are communication tools like right and there's a big difference yeah, because the people you're communicating a lot of times. Just like minded weirdos who are up to no good and the nobody. Nobody knows anybody's name, it's exciting, it's exciting and there's no risk. So if I say, or something and say hey this really, this thing really happened to me today and it was so hard.
It's not as vulnerable as picking up the phone and calling you and saying Hey markets, Pronadi have a minute. I mean that's and ask I know: no one wants to pick up the phone like people would, rather they don't want to email. Barely now just text. This accent like I'll slide into your dms. It's worse, it's the worst yeah, but I'm guilty of me too. So, let's go back, let's judge them yeah who knows yeah yeah. No, of course we're not that bad yeah. When I was that if we could be worse yeah again, we use it because we're busy and gets So I can not have time to talk now for greater good. Our reason is different. Exactly why don't people understand? I don't know so: okay see you you you you you go to the social work, school, yeah and you're, going to be a researcher and- and you know right- I saw a couple of academic pieces, peppers, you're doing the big work, you're getting attention as an academic and as a researcher, and then you decide on shame.
Now. I want to do my dissertation on shame, but my dissertation chair was like not a good topic. So what do you like that? And then I was like why, what was his argument: It was a her in her argument was like this seems really important to you. Don't do something that our committee is going to own, that's important to you 'cause. They will tear it up and I was like no. I still want to do it and I went to the stacks. The library doesn't need that out now and the very first paper said the decision to study. Shame in the death of many academic careers, really it said that in a book you just happened upon the article. You know when I was looking at shaman academics and now, looking back twenty years ago. I understand why why you know but this really weird it's like a sindre uh huh. When you're a reader yeah and you read something about Shane people get so sucked into it that they They can't say objective about what they're reading, like even editors, a hard time editing my book. Sometimes 'cause they're like
Oh my god. This is me this I didn't know. This was how I didn't know you could talk about this. I know this: how to name people immediately personalize it there's no 'cause, they live in it, yeah, there's, no US and them with shame like we all have it. It's hard, it's hard not to get stuck into it and I think the the word shame which in academics be more objective than that that we have to just people. Not in a deep shame, yeah yeah, because they wanted to do something else and and the system the academics is basically yeah, it's a shame in place, and it's also very insulated and very self important. Sometimes super thing, what is Kissinger quote The only one is the only one that he said that I think the Six in the academy are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small, yeah, right, yeah and, and has the and that's the yeah that makes sense yeah right, but I, also like. I want to make sure I talk about this, so I'm going to posit
but now that not everybody. You know struggles struggles, life in order for you to find in your research that there are people that do feel that they're worthy yeah and that they had you know at least one grounded parent that kept them someone with their. You know, with a sense of self that could move through the world and not a in the south, instructive or destructive way. That there is. That a lot of this some of this stuff doesn't apply to everybody. I know I would disagree. Ok, I would say that the who kind of redefined his wholehearted, who really find self worth and who they are and can be authentic. A lot of them fought for that. They weren't necessarily know they're fighting. Yes, some of them were raised with it, but that's a big if I would say eighty percent fought twenty percent one way or the other world yeah one way or the they figured it out. I figured it out. That's the interesting to think about these type of topics which you know you stay out of
to our the Indian there's very be obtained in a set in a in terms of talking about it with any. You know I mean it doesn't seem to be the drive. The drive is practical, actually yeah and that you know that its place, I guess not unlike therapy- can have its place, but the these are the issues, and this is what the research shows that if you're filled with shame me out, this isn't yet is going to. I I feel like I I I feel like I, I don't want for people who don't know you. I think we just I have to get to you know what the what the trust of you know. What you found out. What so you are you in the Can you say: fuck, academia, I'm going to do! Shame and then I was like, then I did my dissertation and got out, and I said I'm going to study for shame for six months and move on it turned into six years. But I think for me. I think, for me, the big thing is
is that I ended up studying all the kind of experiences and emotions that give meaning to our lives, and we think we all of us know that warm wash that comes over us. That makes us feel small and not enough. You know I've been feeling it on and off this conversation have you know you have not fire? Well, no, not even a little. Now I felt that, may I I think I thought I think that I felt it was the first time I watched the first head talk. I was I he she got it figured out. I think I have figured out what we need to do. I haven't figured out how, personally to do it for sure I mean that's the working properly leaving yeah it's three leaving. You would think that I would just get a free pass on it, but now it's super hard. And now like with the Netflix still coming out and doing that kind of stuff. That's that's enough place for someone who's. A research professor like weird
why I imagine let's go. Let's go back and we'll talk about it, because I want people to understand what you do so you spent six years urging shame and that feeling of a of a less than everybody identifies yeah, and I then I really started like her writing on shame. What is it? What is, how is it different from guilt, humiliation, embarrassment, I like that separation. Shame is you know I am bad guilt is. I did something bad yeah, because there is a huge difference. I mean there is, but guilt always used to shame. Now it's really no guilt on that. I'm pro guilt. Ok, like I actually a self regulator, it is it's it's adaptive guilt is. I did something I hold up against my values and think this is not. And with my values I need to change it. To make amends. Shame is now I did something bad, but I'm a shitty person and the
as I said I want I want to. We are saying I think you know: are you an enemy now listen. This is like this is those. What do I listen intently, though, that I see I I thought, like a crises talking again the things you know now, I'm listening! Okay, Silas! Did you see what I just did, though I just had the warm wash of like she's like a shame right there, I'm like you listening, but I, but I decided she judging me, she's had enough of my ideas. She's got this figured out. Why am I not giving her more time yeah? I know that I am happen now and I'm really enjoying. This is really interesting. You who doesn't like one on one conversation now I do like when I when I wanted to retract that, like one on one and only small talk only bullshit, I don't know how to do it so great I, but sometimes at the beginning, just make people comfortable the thing without shame. That, in my experience personally is that you know, if do you ever read Robert Firestone, so note to self? No,
the call the fantasy bond and there's a few books in my life that are sort of changed. My perception real out yet like not unlike your white light moments, I've had a couple one with inspectors: denial of death, which you know, can it posits the idea that people have almost a genetic need to feel part of something bigger than themselves to find meaning in life and like in there for a long time I kind of held that that you know we're all an existential terror. So you know why? Wouldn't we be doing all the things we're doing, but you, if you broaden that in sort of pushed aside the existential terror thing to create this spectrum of actual human reactions and behaviors that more dictate. You know our problems are yeah, but I do believe, and then there is a long and I do know the answer right yeah for sure, but I do the fire. Something is basically that if you grew up with any sort of parental, emotional abuse or emotional neglect that way as it. This is what blew my mind about shame, and I think this is like the big problem and I don't think you can really have
time necessarily to talk to anybody specific trauma or why the are going to resonate in what, however, they're going to win your conversations right but like the the the appiphany I had, the other day was like when you say, like you, know, being vulnerable and moving through I've showing up in as with your authentic self, to be as courageous and you're not going to and kill you there's part of it's sort of like now I don't know might might like it could kill me right. Well, yeah, 'cause, ok! So I'm going to go in with my authentic self and great I'm going to let my authentic self be crushed, whereas if I what a worn just half my armor. Maybe I can move through a little taken. The blood is right, but now it's gonna take five years for me. If I can rebuild and whatever- and you know whatever caused it- and you know, then you have to you know, sort of like me at the that's neither here nor there kind of but antibodies, essentially that if a child is not
cared for or nurtured properly or allowed to develop themselves when feel uncomfortable, you know or that you know they're not getting that stuff and they feel bad the only thing they can do is bind themselves because the your parents, you can't be the parents form that happens in eight weeks, so you put in place, is very judgmental parent. I think that's true inside, I think, there's a there's a lot of trees. I think we make Panera. If there's not, she wasn't capable of loving me. It's I am unlovable right. I do think that is, and I think that is forms a huge basis of shame right and it's not just it's not the basis. It's a core of what some people call home inside for sure. So so every time something hurts a look at the near and they look for the narrative explains what they did wrong and also becomes actuating. They don't know that there's another option that is in terrifying, MIKE Joy, you're letting go. They don't know that, and so that's where I mean it is
I mean this is the heart of it. Like a shame is basically the fear that there's thing about us or something we've done or failed to do that MRS Unloveable, an unworthy of connection and belonging and so I do think that becomes home for people right and they keep doing things too. Fifty dollars date it yeah. Now I think that's right, and I think you know it's interesting, there's something I think in rising strong or something one of some somewhere. I wrote something that one of the greatest those danger stories we tell ourselves. Is about our love, ability that we are not lovable, because someone wasn't willing or didn't have the ability to love us, and I think when I say that people just just can't- Sometimes it just hits people like, but I this was about my love ability and like now, because that person have the capacity or wasn't willing right. It's not a reflection of how lovable you are, and that is or of shame and right that's the core of self worth, and I think it's very hard. You know.
Vulnerability is courage, basically, vulnerabilities uncertainty, risk emotional exposure, the willingness to show up, and we can't control the outcome, which is almost never We can never control the outcome because you can control people thinker perspective, as one thing I liked about the Netflix special. Is that that that realization, that you, you know that our brain as as a biological function to sort of manage fear, creates bad v. Regions, app stories about what could happen. Yeah yeah its job is to protect us. That's the only way I use my imagination. This is going to be bad me too. It's foreboding joy like if something good is happening. I'm like oh shit, we're in for yeah yeah. I can't do that. Nothing yet yeah. Sometimes that's. We can measure your capacity for vulnerability very specifically by how open Marta Joy. I do a joke about it. You do. I do like. I literally say that
you know I'm am I he. I don't know how to have fun. This seems to be a ridiculously of happiness. That's crazy, like you know, I can get like five or six minutes of relief a day. You know good yeah, and so I got to the point where I'm sceptical of other peoples- joy like I just I don't buy it like if someone as we had a great time with that thing. Last time I did you did you have a great time, or did you just think about who you work for a couple hours? We could never hang out for very long periods of time because yeah I yeah, I think, that cynicism is armor yeah. I know it hurts every time you do it kinda and you walk away. You know you're doing it when you're doing it you're like. Why am I? Why am I doing this? Why because it and then the other thing you said in the Netflix thing that resonated with me is that it like. I did this other joke this. These are jokes with. This is why you know I connect to what you were saying it's like I I say I mean I have
I'm not good at empathy really with anybody and then I say in relationship like like we can understand other peoples pain if I caused it, but you know I don't believe you're, not good empathy. No, I am now, but I mean that, like you know, because I had to engage it like you know, I was so cynical and so bitter that you know I I was was garden and charming and funny and angry and all those things, but I I am able to be deeply moved. I just found it frightening. Somehow it's a different point in my life like you know, anybody's joy, anybody's happiness. Anybody was some sort of like judgment judgment, yeah yeah. Now I can do that as well. Too. I mean I can I think vulnerability for me is hard. It's really interesting. We do these exercises when we take leaders through this work- and we said vulnerability is an then it's a blankets in a stem and you have no idea how many people put vulnerable. Is the first step to betrayal, like that's how people
think of what I'm going to get Fuckd yeah, I'm going to like I'm going to yeah share something, that's going to be used against me right and you you encourage that. You know you gotta, take the hit right, I encourage that you share with people who earned the right to hear it like vulnerability without boundaries is just not vulnerability. It's desperation. It's over sharing looking to get here. Yeah. I don't know that you're looking to get him. Actually I mean I don't want to make sure I'm clear on this not hit but, like I don't know, if you're looking to get hurt, yes, people do people share over share and keep that shame going. Yeah. Some people overshare to get validation that they can't trust anybody that no one will be there which really hard. I think we've all done that before like Ocean Ireland, don't look for validation from the Irish, no, no they're sort of like the thing to keep you in your place in a good way. It's nice, but no, I think, you're right, because I've done it publicly and like. I don't know that.
I think that in and of itself over sharing in expressing that type of need in desperation is, is I also defense in some weird way? I was in totally defense, it's inverted or something: it's inverted armor it is it it's and it's it's often looking for validation that I'm is alone, as I think I am right, and you know the validation is really special and special. The terminal uniqueness thing yeah yeah yeah. I know that one. I know that went in the literature from the Bible from the secret secret society. Literature where all come from, why? Why is it in your research of dev? Would you do interview hundreds, a shame to be inching for just cost four hundred thousand pieces of data, all my god? So what you really want? You need you, you and your your you don't think that people know you're, not a control. Freak like
That's so rude man. No, yes, no, I'm just like I've got all of the evidence. This is an equation. It is undeniable. We do have your tenure any a gram, maybe once just like a couple weeks ago, pissed me off, but is bullshit. I don't know, I don't know the science behind it, but all I know is that made me mad. I get a little nervous about me. Tell me tell about the fund sort of like hey just get a tarot reading on my can't handle it. I can handle it now because, like I know, it's bullshit but I'll walk away going, like God is kind of fun. I think I remember I someone did it so it's I don't know it's just pending kids when they said they said you have strong instincts and beliefs and you will spend your life collecting data to support them. That's what it said. Piss me off and also said control is an issue yeah, oh yeah, I'm not trying to be rude. Now I own it.
It's me as eight I just I I think I like I. I don't know what it is about me and people who are controlling. I. I don't know that that I really am because I can't keep yeah, I'm a I'm, a little emotional. You know like I'm a yeller and gaiking on I'm right. Ok, yeah, 'cause, apparently like my engram. Apparently, the emotion that underpins is rage and anger. Yeah me too yeah I got some of that sometimes yeah. I just see the world like, should be this way and it pisses me off when it's not the world people in general yeah lines. And while this restaurant is operating, everything I'm making a bad face like this is terrible. I don't want to be like that. Sometimes I think that I can be so. That's make sure we, like so from shame, get the vulnerability and this sort of the basic message. Of what you're doing that is proactive, and I think that helps people like I wrote down one like
Actually the two Oksana Netflix Special and I realized. Why would I down is exactly what somebody who was like wanting to understand what you were saying and taking notes during one of your lectures like have it all here, and you say to yourself like when I get home I'm going to like this, is how it's going to be and the thing it's all, very satisfying to hear and what you move through on stage and then what you feel you know you're crying you're like that's me, oh my god, it's so touching. Like you know, I have to do that, but it's all up here and I, get the making it making action in your heart could take time. Oh it completely takes time mean but we didn't you, didn't build those walls overnight and you're not going to take him down overnight like right and it's it's practice. It's like. I spend a lot of time even with Steve, my husband, my kids, you know
and coming across armored and then having to circle back and say I apologize. I bet when you told me that I actually got scared right now, and so this is what I do like. I get scary when I'm scared, sometimes yeah, so that she wears out it does it's so exhausting so, like you end up draining people and they're like no I'm not going to see. That was the other thing that I wrote down is that you know in a lot of what you're talking about vulnerability and empathy coming with the which is the antidote. Yes, too, to all the same, you know, man, yes, yeah shaman, boil shame. Blame is something that people do who are in shame and the other thing that people do when they're in shame. Is he and what? What? What was the the the the the path that the the the logic of like you know, violence, addiction and all that the six of that come from that's the difference is between shame and guilt like people that are highly kind of use, a lot of guilt, proneness like if you do something, if I'd knock this over on your desk right now, my
that was a dumb thing to do, but I'm not a dumb person, people who can differentiate itself from action. Your guilt prone have lower. We have addiction, depression, violence, aggression, bullying, eating disorders. Shame is high highly correlated to all those with to put it like, you said that to putting it out, you put your pain into other people. Well, you first, you drill your drill, a hole through your heart with it and then and that pain gets so bad. You lash out at other people and you do the other stuff edition. Although I mean fiction, shame are so correlated right. Researchers really even have a hard time figuring out where one started starts and the other ends like it's even to predict the timing like where you shame first and then use addiction to self medicate, or did you have some kind of genetic addiction issue that became shameful
Xo Jamie Dictionnaire super correlated. So I guess like me, my question on that. Is that with empathy right because there's some part when you know when you behave a certain way or that you've lived a life in shame and you've acted out in all these different ways that are horrible, and finally realize that that the my fear is that you know to to sort of have empathy and empathy and to let that go that you you'll never stop crying and that you know that vulnerability will be. You know somehow judge you won't. We won't be able to ever knew what he is, that fundamental fear of like well. If I give in and I'd let myself grieve or process or engage the empathy or the vulnerability that somehow going to be destroyed, you know, I think, yeah. I think the fear is like in just really simple terms. If I take off the armor and let myself the scene, but if no one loves or cares for what they see.
I put a lot of work into this. I I have this little stick. Yeah. I put a lot of work into the defense mechanism MIA and so vulnerability. It's like when I would go out and talk about more ability for years. It was so hard because so many of us were raised to believe it's weakness right. I can just keep the armor up right and I was work with special forces at Fort Bragg, and I asked this question like vulnerability. Is uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure like we feel vulnerable when we fill experience at risk and uncertain right, and I Give me an example of courage in your life and the life of someone that you know that didn't require vulnerability. Give me one example of bravery that didn't require uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure, and there was just silence until this one guy stood up and said three tours ma'am. There is no curb without vulnerability. A week later, I'm with the Seahawks doing some work with coach, Karel yeah the guys in the players give me an example of courage and 'cause they're all like vulnerability. Why is why? Is she here talking to us about vulnerability example of courage on the field or off that
doesn't require vulnerability there like there is no courage without vulnerability after they thought about it. We've asked that question to fifteen. Some people now, like I'm still freaking, wanted to answer. Where It can be brave and you don't have to be vulnerable, but it doesn't exist like, but there seems to be a it could be? A kind of a broad definition of vulnerability and vulnerability in a combat situation is still not you're. Just there you're out there in it whether we are innately vulnerable. Yes, whether you, whether it's a parenting situation, uh with your partner or you're in battle? It's uncertainty, its risk and it's emotional exposure. Yeah. The thing is for a lot of folks. You know when we do work with the military and veterans. Vulnerability is death, so they literally come home thinking if vulnerable I'll get killed. So they come home and have a really hard time engaging with their partners in their children in their community
because it corrupted their entire vulnerability structure and some of us were corrupted? Yes, the way we raised her and then you've got real casualties of trauma too, so you have people who are because of because of racism and sexism in those things you to armor up right. So how do you maintain your vulnerability in that and why don't sell me on that I will sell you on that 'cause here's. What I'll say we have to work for to make change? But we're working on system exchange. We still have to create safe, brave spaces where you can take off the armor if you're a teacher and I've literally have to be armored to get to school everyday and get home like physically emotionally, it's your job to a space for six hours where they can take that shirt off and breathe and see the world. If you are a. If you are a, we have to spaces where people can brief, where they can take the armor off, even if
have to gain knowledge that when they leave, they have to put it back on MIA. So I think it's a two prong approach like fight the systemic stuff and eight spaces where people can be seen- and this is right in that also goes. You know in a more which is probably more challenging, because it's not necessarily systemic outside of individuals that you know in your relationships with people hi it's hard. You know that you have because you have habit, we have patterns. You have the way you understand each other, which can become Deathrattle, just the death rattle dental it yeah, and I mean when we ask people like what is vulnerable for you. What is vulnerability for you, like the answers, saying. I love you. First right, you know the date after my divorce trying to get pregnant. A second miscarriage. You know, sitting with my wife, has breast cancer page four talking about authors like how
how the mythology that vulnerability is weakness. Yeah it was started is beyond me because those things are scary, but there's just no oculus for their week week. It seems like that's why people always say bullies are actually week because yeah have to act this way to hurt others in order to make up for their own sort of LOS or lack of self. Yeah fear. Shame It's very tide to shame, yeah so moving through in that chain that could have been wired into a kid from his old man or from his mother for weather. Like you know, that's the other systemic problem, the bigger systemic problem outside of schools. Is you know how? How do you yeah? How do you dictate how the apparent should act and how do you had? No human should act. I mean that seems to be the wild card in all this is that it's it's a total while Kerr. That's why I'm not sure that it's the best intervention point area like
if you know, if you said you can talk to one thousand educators- are thousand parents, I'm going to pick the edge because sometimes say you know what my dad shame to shoot out of Maine. I turned out ok right, yeah, yeah yeah. Did you yeah? That's where I'm like? Did you did you really? I can tell by your tone that you're, ok, yeah yeah it mind your own business, yeah yeah or no in Oman, yeah, shaman, parenting's rough yeah. I can't imagine it so now. So the work is really to get to a place where vulnerability is safe and and also engaging in email actively engaging in empathy. I don't think it comes natural. I mean like like what you were talking about a mess. Or- or you know when you know somebody has problems and you try to fix them like your dependency, totally sort of some kind of
a malignant empathy That's a great word for it's just not yeah, it's it's almost the opposite, because interesting, professional knowledge code, this is driven by selfishness, usually sure it's like it. It is like. I need you to not behaving this way, 'cause. It's actually scary for me right! That's recovery, yeah, that is recovery yeah, but but this sort of the job of trying to get someone to behave a certain way you know, enables you to not deal with your own. She had totally and back then, the the downside of that is eight and I'll eat your sense of self. It does because you know here's what's interesting. This is my this is my theory that I think is backed up by data. You cannot be in, I think, with someone, if you don't know where you end and they begin right right, Jenna mean sure sure
because you know, if you are sort of, if there's no cap on your personality right, you just gonna kind of like mash, almost immediate, totally yeah you just one of those people like you, know a look where one per year an appendage good attendance. It is, and that's I don't know where we like, I end and you began so everything I say the motivation behind everything you're doing for me right that terrible bad relationship yeah, it's rough someone's going to get tired, so I'm going to get tired, oh ok, so creating space for vulnerability and empathy, the I'm trying to hold that space in your relationships are institutionally and then you know, hopefully you know the the loving with your whole. What is it whole hearted ts wholehearted? I was trying to figure out like what is how would we define this group of people that I'm finding the research that, like completely leave it there enough?
even when they screw things up and make mistakes and imperfect should happen to them and I was like, I think their wholehearted yeah and one thing let's say about that. He said king vulnerability, safe and it needs need to be safe. It doesn't have to be comfortable like I'm so over. The need that everyone has for comfort yeah. I don't have that problem, I'm always uncomfortable. I don't know I feel uncomfortable to me. Sometimes myself. I think like I, I I don't I I I I don't think I'm an introvert, but I do find after my own devices I I probably won't do much yeah and I'll hang out by myself Dick around with the you know, like a multi tasking, nothing give me to multi death and done so. I guess then. Like my question, that's something I didn't hear you talk about, which I think is tricky now culturale in that you know you talk about this
places that are being created for women and around you know, race and gender issues, which are proactive and great. Is that like Maybe I maybe it's in the book, but what I didn't hear it was the importance of forgiveness. God shut. When I wrote the gifts of imperfection that was ten years ago, I had a chapter on forgiveness and right before or I went to publication. I did a focus group with Rabbis Ann Grounded theory researcher, which means one of the rules and grounded theory there, no outliers, you can't like put a bunch of data on sticky notes and be like? Oh, this should doesn't fit with everything else in the stuff in my pocket, like everyone's, when all the data matters well, these rob this blew my whole theory I was going to publish in the gifts of imperfection forgiveness out of the water. I was like, oh my god. Isn't it with what I was going to write well.
It, was about forgiveness and self worth and self protect. Yeah, that's what it was about. So I pulled out the gifts and I'm like I'm not going to mess with forgiveness. Somebody else can do that then, and I'm writing rising strong, like six years later, wait what was the rabbis and what was their particular as a Jew. I'm just curious. They were talking about why you put it before rabbis I mean what what how is addicts are, like, my god, forgive missing a better talk to juice and what was not an energy talk to everybody else. Yes, I know I did use or the sticking point yeah you could use on board. I thank you that you had. It will cause and what I is a lot of what I was coming from christian beliefs, beliefs, but I was like talk to this group of rabbis and they were like. No, we don't agree. And so what we think about what it was sorry
Well, I know what it ended up being, but I don't think I knew that at the time I just knew it didn't fit, but it ended up being, which is what I put into rising strong 'cause. Then their data may tenth of sense, was the role of grief and forgiveness, and it didn't make me until one day. Actually I was at church and the priest that was talking. He said in order for given this to happen, something has to die and I look up within you. Yes die period and I was like well that seems like a very christian narratively. 'cause Jesus dies that type stuff, but then I went back to the rabbi stuff. Still, I'm wrapping my brain. Ok, let me get you so one of the reasons I think forgiveness is so hard. Because we have a pathological fear of loss and grief. I do agree with that part. Well, that's the death terror. That's right! So in for forgiveness to happen, we normally have to go through a grieving period, so You and I are married, have an affair and we decide to work it out there still
the death and a grief of an idea, a promise something, I mean of loyalty, loyalty, yeah, right and so one of the things I really learned about. Forgiveness, is that one of the reasons we hold on so much to rage and resentment and anger is because that's so much easier than grief, I'm never going to forgive my father four or who he was because I know I want to grieve. What I didn't get I'd rather be I'd rather be like most of us, like our emotion with little agency, like grief, it's a hard emotion, it's it's it's it's hard and so one think about forgiveness. Is we're not we're much better, causing pain and feeling pain, sure and I think for
given us to happen. We have to feel pain right and I think that get back to that core existential idea of most peoples. Through irrational inability to accept death period. I mean, I think, that's true, and you can accept it as an intellectual idea. I mean we all know we're going to die, but the true terror of not able to and right that rationally as part of life and inevitability that should dictate how you live your life. Is is lossed in consumer culture, and I think in general, in less you're sure. Right now I agree. I agree, I think that's what the rabbis were talking about. The rabbi said you don't have enough pain in construct a forgiveness, interesting? The reason I I bring that up only is because you know when you talk about you know and to the vulnerability, empathy being the cure that, like I, I just wondered when you sort of assess culture that where we're at right now, but if you were,
we were going to generalize this sort of right and left here in the faults of the right and left and political ideas that right now that this sort of the right kind of way of dealing is like apologize, rupologize double down if necessary, there's no shame. Even if there is fuckit, don't apologize and then the left it's it's becoming, never forgive so so I think I think those are. Scary, accurate so what I'm asking you in your rubric. If that's the right word is that how do we facilitate a conversation, even if you're going to disregard or cut and run the people that shame. So we don't apologize and it seemed seemingly are nihilistic and don't give a shit about the of the damage it caused and deal with kind of like this eating
frenzy of the vulnerable. In there in in their need for for righteousness or justice. Do you know I mean it just seems that we're having a cultural conversation about wanting people to change wanting men to behave differently, wanting white men to behave differently, warning men period to behave differently. How that conversation actually happened as opposed to you know people being made examples of an then you know kind of Bm exiled without any avenue conversation or forgiveness. I know it's this might This might be the boiling point and stuff will level out, but I'm just wondering how that conversation happens. In your point of view,. I mean? I definitely don't have an answer? I think I don't.
I think it's going to happen. I don't think I can take anymore talking in group in group terms the right, the left, the white men. I think the only way I see real change happening is on the ground connected real people. And not categories 'cause. I just don't believe anything I see anymore, which is just the weirdest untethered place. I mean that's true. What is let's try again in like? Where does that leave you with? What is our perception based on? How do we know what we know and what are we reacting to because there's so much coming in there's so much coming in it's all I can do is deal with the people in front of me, and I think that's true. It's all I can do is deal with the people in front of me whole Call countable in a way that I'd want to be held accountable and look for me. I think shame is a tool of oppression, humiliation, berating, our tools of hurt
they're, not going to be tools of change and justice. I do nothing. Shame is a social justice tool and if you want to use it as a social justice tool, that's great I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to participate that in that with you, because she is it just change the person who the target of the shame shame changes, people who use it against other people. So if you me too, hey this, this person did something really shitty really bad. Don't include me that person accountable in a real way, I'm I'm on board, but just FY? I that takes 10x the amount of time and work that shamed us it. Will you get the rush of feeling good, bye, berating someone right away and it's a long process, but I will not dissipate in using shame as a social justice tool, it's the justice tool of oppression, yeah it's weird how it is coalescing into groups
Nicholas, and that they're not acknowledging that they're just finding strength in the brazenness and sort of of going fascistic cleanings. You know and using all these tools to sort of annihilate vulnerability, right yeah and I call it common enemy, intimacy mmhm. If this were he'll rush disk like real rush of Gleich counterfeit intimacy, we don't have anything in common except we hate the same people right and then like when you get right down to a tee. It is about people one on one thing or in small groups, and and and what did you say about that is about the biological need for people to be connected, yeah, biologically hardwired? the thing that we're doing the way we're talking about ship right now with ideological bunkers in groups of people goes against our humanity.
Right away that we are. You know the way that this current administration right now is dehumanizing people. These aren't. These are refugees. Their animals like this, like You don't have to be historian to know them at the beginning of every freaking. Genocide in history starts with that rhetoric like What we're doing right now pushes like we're wired, hardwired to not rape, kill, may She dehumanize humanize, each other and or to do that we have to turn off pieces of our biology in our self that
are gonna- be hard to reclaim right in people of feed the fire, a feed it the. I n in technology facilitates out totally and you can't blame technologies like fire like fires. Great, like you, can keep yourself warm. You can burn down the bar right right, but it's not it's not the fire. He obeyed the AIDS, but the fire can definitely burn down the bar. Yes, definitely and it's burning in its bring down the barn right now, because it's so yeah, because it's like the it's hard to control the fires, yeah and I'll. Tell you what out of control right now, more than anything I can greed, oh yeah, with ceos lots of them. Do they deal with that. I am pretty picky, I'm at a point in my career, where I, where the mindful ceo they're, having a little trouble getting there with their work place. You know level yeah, I mean yeah. I think there are mindful CS and I'll tell you one thing. I think that I think some in some corners of corporate America they're doing a better job holding people accountable for shitty behavior than political
right. Well, that's what it's really all about! Yeah! That's true! I think when you give your permission to talk about people as groups, you give yourself permission to dehumanize people and make decisions that are not based on looking people in the eye yeah, and I think it's fearing white. Why look people in the eye when he can just text him or you can close your eyes inbox him into a way of thinking or group or something different than you yeah, there's so much like, there's so much sadness? there's a lot of sadness and there's you know, there's a growing amount of the thing that scares me even more than sadness, despair, yeah, yeah, exactly that leads to hopelessness and that can lead to nihilism and in anger- and I heard Rodel define despair. One day is the bully that tomorrow will be just like today. Yeah and I was like- What? Where do you stand on hope on the big?
That's the end of hope. You know here's the thing thought before this research. That hope was an emotion, but it's not actually a cognitive behavioral process. Sure that I hope it is, has three pieces pathway agency and, if so hope is, I can set a goal. If I can, I can plan b, it plan believe in my ability, and we can so we need to be teaching help in schools. We need to teach people agency goal, setting real things, that Hope Hope is not like a gauzy right since it potential it's a skill set. So recommend Hope I'm a high fan and also, I guess I need to hear you say like when you're dealing with where you're dealing with in your putting into peoples heads in a group situation and people are responding to it emotionally and it seems possible to them to enact what you're saying. Do you obviously for yourself you did, but do you recommend, look therapy
of one kind or another. You know 'cause, like this stuff, isn't just something to home and make to do every day now, bye, I have to deal with your own. Whatever personal trauma or wound or or patterns have gotten you to this place, where you're disabled, to move forward with these things, which are in a human and and good in proactive, you need to get it somehow put into a personal context, so you can take those steps. That's why I talk really openly about being sober. It's why I talk about openly about having a therapist. This is not stuff that we were to do it alone, right right, this guy find the right one and I think it's stigmatized and are you more of like I? I assume that you know because, like you said something similar to what I said, I used to joke about you get older you when you go, you therapy you,
you know why you're there looking like the walking like I know, there's a lot of things were not going to be able to unfuck but yeah. I got a little late, but but I got this one thing that we need to do. We need to do it is important to try to get to that place. Now. It is and there's no, we need to let go of the stigma. I mean. Basically, big challenge of adult life is DIS, armoring, stuff that you had to put on to stay safe as a kid no longer serves. It keeps you from growing into your gifts. Not using is not benign, it is after sizes, and it's going to happen anyway. You can get old if you're lucky. If your imaginary, I'm going to be vulnerable, whether you want to be or not that's it. So you got to learn how to lean into it, and I think that's. I think some people can do without therapy. I definitely could not. My armor was too heavy. It was too generational. I definitely could not well good for you.
Congratulations thanks and I think you're doing great work and it's very moving important in it was a real one. Hundred talk to you, thank you so much it was so fun. That was Professor Bren Brown Eye, what a great I just I think she's said tremendous her netflix special. The call to courage is streaming now and don't forget to take a leap into the future with capterra. Dot com, the leading free online resource to help you find the best software solution for your business with more seven hundred and fifty thousand reviews of products from real software users capped Erica help. You make an informed decision, no matter what your business needs, visit, terra dot com, slash WTF for free today to find the right tools to make this the year for your business. That's capped, C, a p t e r r, a dot com. Utf
I need to blast some guitar need some shearing sounds here. We go
Transcript generated on 2019-10-24.