« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 1066 - Edward Norton

2019-10-28 | 🔗

Edward Norton knows the importance of slowing things down. While many entertainers feel the need to move immediately from project to project, Edward has learned from his peers, his idols, and his own experience that sometimes it’s all about what you don’t do. Edward talks with Marc about the lessons he learned from working with David Fincher and Milos Forman, the inspiration he takes from David Bowie and Bob Dylan, and the stories behind American History X and The Incredible Hulk. Edward also explains what inspired him to write, direct and star in a very unique adaptation of Motherless Brooklyn. This episode is sponsored by the Adult Swim Podcast, Watchmen on HBO, Stamps.com, and The RealReal.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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what do the show? Yes, Now all right! Let's do this! How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies, what the fuck Nix what's happening? I mark Mare- and this is my podcast- welcome to it. How's it going Edward Norton, Edward Norton is on the show today Edward Norton got a new new new movie. Coming out. It's got. A mother was Brooklyn, comes out Friday November, first, it was good to talk to him intends guy. How is everybody you, ok drove in from San Francisco, I made the drive on Friday. Thinking that I would have a man the data of nice drive and go up the coast. Maybe so for luncheon big sir may be taken in go back, get my mind to the times right thought that that
your phone Northern California Coast was the answer to all the problems with the poetic beauty. Navy stop at Essen and do some time travel may be an increase your group were flotation tank of some kind, but did I do that? I did not. I didn't, do any of that. I took the fight straight back to the five straight down the five, the world's most heinous drive it makes five hours seem like nine, the cat really taken too long and arduous worry that enough anything was on fire. The road obese blocked by just took the straight shot by had big plans nonetheless, there's something about that city, and I did have some. I did say I had some goes to have to reckon with I think I did. I think I did folks before I get into that others cup with things the deputy have merged store, is fully loaded with new items, including stuff, People have asked us for four for ever. Actually, we ve gotten shirts with the sweet ass grappling design, a metallic ink Debbie,
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the past few years, he's just been pouring his heart and soul into a recording this podcast called scattered, and it's really about his father and his father's past. You know up through moving from Cuba, you're being a labour camp in Cuba year. Transition into the states answer that haunted his old man, you interspersed with his with Chris relationship with him through his disease, but you know it's it's quite a work up its passion project and its deep and it's funny and it's moving it said produced by W. Am I see and you can get it I imagine we can give every where you can get podcast. It's called scattered and it's my buddy Chris Garcia, now my other by Dean Del RE, who you know he's just as five hundredth episode and got Paul Stanley on their part. Stanley, the guitars dimly singer kissed, indeed very excited. So there's a couple.
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credit cards in the machine do and the numbers I you know I just haven't done that a while, but I had a very long line of people came up literally added a ninety eight posters. I brought just five posters short. A couple hundred people were waiting online at me me and take pictures and by the posters, but we moved on them and I cut a deal with those last five people. To tell you what it is. I want anyone to get jealous by death. I work some out with them because they were waiting around for like a fuckin hour and I work some hours great meeting other people. It was a great show in San Francisco the Masonic with sweet. It wasn't scary to me this is the sector, masonic praetorian than I worked out and again I believe I transcended you usually. I think there is a masonic ritual that they need to that needs to happen in the masonic space at some time. During the spaces history would I fulfilled the last I was there. I came in second in the boy
comedy competition. Thus you know sort of inadvertently, playing out. The failing of the Jew ceremony which is a masonic secret. Masonic right. Ritual that was the bug it used to be something they would your kind of, though they would bring a Jew in by they do that now, and they just hope it happens. Coincidentally, so I actually serve this purpose. Back ninety three. So the failings of the Jew ritual, dine in this space was thus sort of initiated? Now, I needed to transcend that. I had the order wrong of who won in who lost with that ninety three competition Carlos how's, your argues. First, I was second Stephen, be was third recurrence, was for Fourth pad in Oswald, was fifth
so I went in there knowing that I had a trance and I to transcend a few things. That city is always been kind of a haunting mind fuck. For me, but not in the same way, the Boston was just more of it in a different way: men a loop, your way by tat, I went in there for the masonic fearless kick. We would have. We all talk like our president. Would that be unbearable. I'm not gonna begrudging while ye I will ya. I am glad that the? U S military did their job and over a period of time or is able to track down and kill. Abu Bachar, all bag daddy, the one of the leaders of ice is one of the leaders of the caliphate they got in there, and I imagine I am glad they were still there because a couple weeks ago, this president wanted to date wasn't taken all the troops, atta, syria- and I imagine that the Kurds probably did allow the groundwork for this attack and, as I guess will hear about that, perhaps remember the Kurds who we abandoned, because it is president. Why guess he looked out this time on the timing? then it's good, I'm glad
a guy's dead, but the way President Trump takes credit. I did the fact of people still enjoy or or look up to him or her look to him for leadership. What if everyone talked like him? How can people not see you? you know how annoying and embarrassing and fucking horrifically in secure this fucker is, I just don't get it? Are you gonna go and talk about? My set in, f, Francisco like our president, is that we should be able to work up to the president and and motto ourselves after that after him, and I hope that a lot of Americans are doing that hope. Their children are doing that. So I'm gonna do that now. So I formed in San Francisco. I had probably the best said ever just for me, but I think, economic that has ever performed anywhere. I think it was really the best. I am really the best comic that ever lived and I'm not I'm not even making this up. I- and this is just the truth- that too,
try the best set of comedy ever performed any wherever there's been many set before. There's been plenty of very funny people, Richard prior your bill, hedge, all these people by day there's no one doing it is good. Is me at this point in time? How I can annoying, as is that, would have Will you knew in real life? Talk like that cheap, is so, but to be honest with you. I did have the best set of comedy ever in San Francisco die just want to put that out their research perfect, perfect set. It was good good and all the people were great and I was happy to see everybody around dimension at Edward Norton is here dimension it so
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I posted a picture of it on Instagram? Could I do that? Sometimes we broke fuck, it's not that it's waken, those fry sockets Ike inside in serious Gore, may it's in and out it's always the same. It's fucking nails it. It was good and feel bad about it, but it was going to feed the fries fast enough, their good and now, square Mile ketchup and so I did that pretty exciting in them. For some reason, I stopped at Mcdonald's, gotTA, Mcdonald's, coffee and this. This all happened today, chasm recording this on Sunday and right now, fuckin can it whacked out of my brain on fast food products. Yes, yes, I am I work? Let's get into this and it's alright, I'm ok, you're, ok and we are right. Everybody, okay,. Edward Norton we talked and we talked about his but he's got this new movie mother was broken, which comes out there this Friday November, Friday November first
and you know we did it. You know I was excited to meet him. He sat down and we just started going, and this is that dear me, are you? Are you gonna? Do you know me? I hear my gravel, You do not my gravelly affectation. I've had Mcnulty in here. We are embarking on hand, we're on drier exam it is gone, it has gone, it has gone beyond self parity and into actual life span. Yeah it ours, brace, read its leg, did you, What am I did on, which movie I work the motto movie that then he busted his knee on and I had to drop out of a really
and so we got a much more? We got a much more rational and seen actor in John Boy. What movie was as to its New York CUP from cold pride and glory when you work with those guys there don't like? Do you see yourself as part of some sort of Film tradition, anyone you work with multi. Does it affect you dear? Are you like that Mcnulty or do you not register it? It's funny. You said that cause. I I to have this conversation with full of men who with my friend, we came up in New York together, you know starting theatre companies and an end I remember one time saying to him like d: get the sensation that we're just really square compared to these guys that these guys that we're like kind alike, this nerds right, who kind of came up in God and an effective being cool in one way or another right. But the tree
his these guys are just a thin, tickly, weird, a shit and and in a way that we are just not, and he said I feel like. I I think about that. All the time really. We have both done things with the Neuro here and we had both and things with Like Harvey Cartel right and you know, and I think Bob and an owl patina wearing Robert Duvall Right and Nick Industries a lot of em they either really took too many drugs and there's like a residual effect or joking aside I have I do have. Is he says that, like the first chance, creation of them of american Film actors post Brando. I think it is very hard for people today. What happened The people like Brando is that it gets reduced into a really small narrative, ran and people end up the end up losing an orphan.
A sense of what the scale of the impact of something was in the context of that money. Right, and I think that if you anyone who was young when he hit the screen. It wasn't like a new cool star, it was such a seismic. It was. Before and after a moment for American Michael mattering car right and our youth you're young married, it was like that that is the God had. That is what we spire, while the one year, but also also the thing, is again, it gets like Brando in the tank top and Stanley, what s right, yeah, yeah, but but but Brando this incredible he had such a feminine within it ask your looks like a Roman. He was so things here, but he has this kind of weird marble. Mouthed sensitivity same within come requests to a little right. Little bed yeah, I dont for me.
He Montgomery, Clifton James Dean, and these were like nickel anti brand, where I really don't think they were like anywhere a class of the caravan, deeply strange poetic. You writing surely had, but I think that if you talk to like Nicholson, near Merrill Street. And the people who came in the next wave, especially the men here it was all about him. He he was like this enormous ground, additional thing and all the people who had never seen themselves as us even aspiring to be within that all people went out of non traditional kind of pathways into this now new idea of a naturalistic. You know these rights and I think, like the greatest generation Generation of american film actors came wait because of Brando, and it happened right at that moment of the counter,
culture, and so you got like Jack, the Chino, India and Morgan Freeman Arrival and on and on and on and on, but I they were very different sort of people than the people who kind of then the theatre in high school and come up, you know come up to bring it back around here. You know me I like I am, and so I always, but they were always. I mean like Brando to you, don't get a sense it that you're you're a little younger than me, but like the idea that you know you did Highschool Theatre, the idea that you know you did Highschool theatre in any kind of pursue theatre in New York and do whatever that whole thing is post brand of that a little bit of theirs yeah. A little bit I mean don't forget like his mother, was an actress in his sister was too in Nebraska yeah and he could have all of them. He followed them to New York kind of further teenage bohemian dream of of just of being, an artist right. He didn't know where I highly right right. He told me What city was
he was never happier than when he was sellen lemonade and in washing square park. He told you that yeah he were he worked. You know he played bongos with his friends. He I think, happened. Him had in a way was a kind of a tragedy for for him. Some dimensions cause he. He was a person who, like deep We deeply loved his anonymity via an end and the experience of being able to be a kind of a wandering bohemian beyond all that evaporated by the time, use twenty five years old, gone gone leg and and- and and he had a deep such conflict about that that he was it created a negative love. Hate relationship with the work itself I mean it feels like you kind of- must have experienced a bit of that to you sort of that going in your coming as quickly as you did that this would be a rip you apart publicly that you would be denied a public life. If you weren't careful yeah yeah, I think I think
But you know in a funny way by the time we all got into those experiences. Honestly, I think there was more wisdom about it. I think you're more bribe. There were more people to convey to you be careful. Yeah and aspects of it and to be totally honest, like they were poor stars to look to the. They didn't have back then, like, I think when the other figures Dillon, like Brando, there's really is before Dylan after Yonah. Wasn't there wasn't that kind of Zeit gazed variety generation for him here, but every I go back and watch Scorsese doc. You know the note, correction home, one yea every couple years, just because it so it's so amazing and inspiring to me to see a guy at twenty, twenty one years old facing this wall of reporters
putting all this shit on him. You're the voice you generation and he's just go and other than I can really to man. You know and they're saying what does it mean unpack it for us and he goes out. I wrote it. I dont know what it means. What do you think it means, but for a twenty Eightth really stop and think about the experience that we ve all gone through and it's only intensified in the modern world of social the impact. Isn't everything quick bait yet the war. But the expectation is that things can only be enhanced by talking more about them today and there's this kid. Twenty years old. Twenty one years own with the world throwing adulation at him and he has that sense. The density at that age to not be skeptical to know that if I let you inside it, you will ruin it. I will be ruined and you think I'm trying to do gets destroyed by answering your fucking question and that's it
it's incredible it actually, every time I watched it kind of amazes and moves me, because when you look like John Lennon later right, right, going back Cursing the chaise stadium concert in just playing the keyboard with his elbows cause. No, he knows no one can hear right and dissent we're never play in live again like it lay I'd, even then it took him a wilder realise like this. Gonna ruin our lives and they, by the way they break up the Beatles over there. Like. We want to have lives. We wanted but Dylan sort of maintains that disposition today he maintains a sort of mystery mystique. Around how engages with the press on with the public. Absolutely at an I love that he's it turn. He said I ll talk out the musicians I love around about anything, but I'm not gonna unpack What I'm doing, however, I do think what incredible about that doctor?
you look at the new one. Did you like that moment in the new doc, where he gets out wrongly Andrea, actually part of he performs if the first show and the guy the camera goes? How do you feel any turns around us about what I know? It's it's just the best and but then, What I think is a man, using in these things Scorsese made about him, are that sir, Now he has gotten him now. As a man in his seventy easier to say, if you really watch it he'll? He says in the first when he goes look was looking to what was going on around me and I was interested in what he gets museum and I took it and rain to that. But I wasn't gonna talk about that. Were you he Lily says yeah yeah I constructed Azure yeah, it was the conscious tat was a character, but I'm gonna blowing a break it down for their time and what I love about. That is. He does a little enrolling thunder- think Joe, he says: hey Man
we ve been singing? I e basically says we were singing others kumbaya shit, but we had very Norman Watergate and it was like we better now still shut up rhino either to play, and that that one bit at film were heaped playing hard rain like Tom York. I were talking about it when we were working on the music of this film I didn't even really ever make Tom for above Dylan Fan bright. I m really know they wasn't but he Lily said. That's the one most punk rock things. I've ever seen Laying taking those you know those folk song, the up and basically going no man like the decision. Working make a menace, we gotta be What's going on here. It's it's incredible, There are so few and I think Scorsese he has really caught. Something she's that this guy always was focused on What do I need to do that keeps me edge about the whole thing and feeling like I'm out there on the
bright white line actually doing something. No matter what anybody says, no matter whether they get it now, you know he was such a lake. I'm going we're here. Once you get caught, with what I'm doing I'm going over here and you're gonna screaming yelling go, don't plugin play electric here, but you know Don't you like yours, go fuck yourself. If you don't come, if you know come now. You're gonna come later. We enter Europe, you'll get it later here, but the confidence, the very young person today. Weekly! Go! If you get this if you get it now, I really don't that's not what I'm here for right, I'm here to do it it's. Why he's authentic worthy the of light? The mystique did you It is in this assessment you have as younger person. Errors is something you're looking at over. I came I mean I I where these. What were these lessons for you yeah yeah, and I thought I mean but there were people there, there's other people that work were now effect on you who you realize are.
Either by design or because it there. Wisely reticent about ruining the very bubble of like in their creating. By going, therein blather ring or not having the wrong way, Jonesy Riley in here the other, Gerhard Schmid. You know he agreed to do it and he said- down any goes. I don't want talk about myself. I want to ruin my mystique and thank God we know each clown painting in my house, whose we talk about clowns for twenty minutes, but eventually he started talking to each other. I think, but but let's be clear, like doing did a radio show in a way which is a great. He did it's one of the great news Carla, Jean things you know and all those rifts like. We can talk about coffee, Joe here now and black. You know all that shirt stuff you go it's gonna like is. I augur fee, which is one of the weirdest. You know that it's incredible, but he doesn't ruin anything.
Because what he does he go. Hey, there's a lot we can through Breslau weaken riff about me, I'm common ground in and there's a lot that I want to share the right, but think about how much value that has to have, because what you love out his own work. He goes highlighted you don't know about my marriage and earlier about the shit. Let's talk about great songs, about mothers, Yoda ain't and you go ego just These also, you sort of this weird, almost vaudevillian curator of things to like he has this new persona, the guy that just gonna die on the road. You know in his western jacket. Yes, the kind of impressive in a weird way. You just gonna, he doesn't have to do it and he needs to do it yeah, I to close the highwayman. I I respect the Yeah too, that is people who are not afraid and there are very few to go hey. You know what I've done. This gig I've done my thing, yeah
I'm not tapped into the main vain ray what people needing right now and also our I just want to be a human being. I want to go back to quiet if or whatever it is, I make furniture. I wanna like you, you respect them lot. I think I've well I'd. I think it's very, I think the dignified and whether you know like what ten assumes got the bitch goddess of success. Very, very hard for people to say Do I want to die? Having done, the same, a version of the same thing over and over now, some people are real, like trade craft. Like right again. Is it maybe does like one Diane Rona as thing I, I wrestle. I do wait till the kind, restorative sensation of just not doing I'm staying where I live. Respect great when I hear somebody that I know or somewhere like a who lives in comedy or whatever and show business, and I am assuming awhile and
gotten out somehow I am like Congratulations, you, God, damn it good for you. I talked about stern. Do in there. He would sit right there to honour what that means to you, I went to first is great yeah. He's completely out of his mind, an absolutely out of my life We have memory that my great memory, but out of his mind, remembers everything but a challenge that I think you remember, I think nitrates routes will be remembered with vivid detail and extremely narrow set of experiences and it actually, there was enormous blank space. From decades really status, for once. I ve me once did didn't remember Large portions of the twenty years from sixty five, eighty five like it and he didn't literally, have any memory of of Please get lost yet if you don't do drugs, I don't know I mean the daring. You awesome things I don't I don't know
that's sensation. Yet now, let's go get point nickel, during said about Nicholson that year he just is basically retired, because his reasoning is he doesn't want to do anything if it's not as but are better than what he's done before. That's reasonable yeah right yeah. I mean I don't too weird reft, but I was really struck by this thing I heard the Dalai Lama say that he he's got that working for the ideas he's fine he too, but I, but I saw something where someone said selfishly. What are you? What are you still hope for yourself the remainder of your life, and he said he said I hope the courage to they crawl into a cave and be a monk again and, like my wounds for a period before I die- and I was like that's incredible for him? No for someone to say. I need time to go to being like knee, humble or
this alone and actually with myself and do not have the burden of this This thing that I and other people were: how are you with that would being with yourself are you any good at it? I love it at the longer. I do it the better rife. The more the other voices slip away in the dopamine hit. That, like comes from some sort of well shit, we're after me. I know about the affirmations of the work here that the work is always fun. I always find the work great everything else that comes around it. Messes with your head, and you got a really really work at keeping your head and I like fixated on the target that had substance or who you our two royal or even for the work layer Hugo widen we do this. Why did I go at this year and when whatever were doing, can we retain the focus on the path to
achieving what we were trying to achieve with it in terms of what it does for people watching it. Not what anybody says about it, not what gets conferred on it in the short term. Not any of these are his matrix of agendas noise and publicity yeah, and you can't be immune to you can be the toughest sort of you know. Shit. I dont believe that anybody's autumn, the key immune the two like that, just a constant chorus of voice to try to get you to pay attention. Oh my god, you worse now yet to how things are performing, outside the the direct conversation you are trying to have through what you did if people right area- and I think like I have to think a lot about, Equally, if I looking go well, here's thing they did. That there's no question
we hit the target of what we were going for here for our tried for arch people, people are age, our friends, our experience, things it connect area Actually many of them failed on many of the other metrics that other people are. We talking specifically we might give you like, like you, ve, taken, would like fight club area, for which I would say, looking and where it sits. Yet it went right on through. The people, we made it for you and it says what we wanted it to say great movie, and it was about the things we wanted it to be about, but it was huge flop, initially the box office very, very Did you like the movie? I love I was overwhelmed by I. I love the experience of doing it as profoundly is anything. I've worked on Yahoo. I've been looking and had some really good experiences, but also, I remember you're going to something with bread and the gang
I am. I remember him, give me this funny looking gone. He said hell. You think this is gonna go and I said He's can go very badly and he said I you two, let's get high and he and he had a joint. We always do down here and and Never we went to this thing. It some film festival, and people booted food and on Maize Anna and peoples and people walked out, and we we sat in the back and we want and there was all this negative feelings in IRAN and in it and he turned to me in the dark and he goes that's the best movie on ever gonna be in, and I said I think so too, like we were hugging each other, a kind of like WP. We were so we were really Valorously only saw it in an audience. It was yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And it was kind of like straight out movie itself. It was like we're failing
we're we're not men. Will I grow like all the other. Things are happening and we were kind of like a yet enjoying it connected mom, but I think, but I think that many many many of the things all of us would point to is they have mattered to us here that I saw something once of all the critics who panned raging bull and then ten years later put it on their best of the right. I saw that Libya and you just want alike fuck. You put your middle finger again. Just go like you, again you, let's go back to like you when you're sitting there with the would fill up back in the day, I mean what were your goals? Yeah me wet? How did you come to New York yet to start to do this, an end. You know like you're like because he's he was another. Sensitive amazing artist that threat buckled under the weight of something, but what were you guys in a what dreams. At that time, just do theatre any. What we really think I mean yeah. I think a lot think. Come if you went to New York in that,
period. I think there was there was still in the lure of what years Back in the early nineties, where'd you come from, you want a yellow into Gallager Anna ICE good, I'm New York, all the time from the Haven T she plays cleared. It was undergrad. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I say history in here studies and, as you have a plan, not I had a dim uncut. Couldn't sensation that I wanted to go to New York for the theatre? but I had a hard time, just sort of owning that embracing it and I kind of went there, what sort of a generalised sense of I want in Europe. You know I wanna be in New York with your family and do it my families eight my parents were real lovers of the arts and General yeah. They weren't artists in any way their aficionados of everything. Oh yeah, loved, music, love, theatre, love, more these, and so so the household was filled with Afghanistan. Yeah, that's nice! Yeah
One of my uncle's is a great musician ones. A painter and my mother taught Shakespeare in ok. You know went took place in my father is of opera. If, in a really theatre boffin, would you grow up New Baltimore so is this step along the uneasy at other free museums, and he had the outer last year. It was some but Baltimore had a we close it easy. We were closely you know, centre stage with great regional theatre ballroom. We had, like you, know, centre stage with great regional theatre involving high, but then DC had absolute national theatre and things like that, but it also had like there was the nine thirty club, in DC was the great because, in the end, that era in Baltimore really only had like nettle it didn't like I can all music seen for it was like, is like Yankee either and like Springsteen right the word or you were, like ladies remnant- Havana yeah right, but then there was like MID atlantic gum. All station called W H. Firstly, I was incredible and that at
the bread pop the clash yeah, the Indians, who had a very big breed, good, punching, bagasse, efficacy, airliner, three million- that was an island the cousin who play me. I am in things like. I was affected by that. It's funny Spike Jones, and I realise that I used to go she shop for being parts at this bike store. He worked out when he was like fourteen in d, C, N, Rockville or a relay that area. Do you think you cross, Pat? We I lit when he said that he said you know I used to work like this thing and I, melted my mind. I had this sensation of like could I have bought my shamardal cranks from spike, well. You know, and we were both like clay afford. Thirteen forty air easy because, like you ignite, you don't seem like that the fallen into the angrier zone of that world. No, he said pretty sweet to now. Yeah like this, with ice,
I think I just felt alienated in mean hoo hoo you know, I don't trust people who don't feel alienated. Nice girl likes basing our big effect on me, even though that wasn't like the hip thing. People forget, though, like if you were from that ISA. Corridor earlier, the narrative of getting out like the narrative of getting out and I talked to him that this one's darkness, on the edge of town such cinematic, that I could really like filled my head with, record here even more than a newborn run. His attaboy has really evocative ever darkness, but darkness only. It sounds like a war movie really is hidden. Really it's like film teens yeah. You early feel it's like film scenes of young people who taught you yeah yeah. We did when it when it was the thirtieth really the rat I've got to do. I did this. I interviewed him about like dark.
Yes, and we are aware of the I talked to him at his place for just a general show yeah, it's a heavy chat. Man are, you know like when you around Bruce and on what I wasn't Bruce fanatic, but the I respect Ghana of the regular, but when you around me like this is this is a weighty man. That was why I mean I think right. I think his book is great. One of the greatest books ever written by an art about him, his own life. I think it's, What was surprising to me about it was how hard on him Sophia's me Jesus yeah, and I like that No not like that. No, I think he has with this all in that Broadway, shall we as also one song ass. He has a ever sigh. I think It is very, very rare for some one of his stature to to have the instinct and the. The capacity to dig that deep into what
his own metamorphosis was from pain and poverty in where come fear and an end to unpack it in a way that has value for other people, yet so that they can continue to see themselves in him now that, even though he's my eyes wise in these older and he's coming to terms with his own demons and because of his stature. He sharing that in it strengthens people may be feel less alone who were similar to him and never assume. That's right. You were like that and and by the way he says He says it begin here. I've been Can this kind of illusion sleight of hand thing, and we and we ve been doing this together for while I've been doing this so that we could feel these things but now we are. Deal with my ghosts and we're all hitting the aid, you know like it, just keeps yeah he's taking you into like that's the amazing thing about him to a new level right right. When I talk to him, no, I am sure you know this as well as at his pipe
like persona, it is pretty smooth like you know, it's real guy man, I'm just you know. Oh yeah yeah he's got this thing, but it seems real earnest were genuine, but she's right around the corner. From that, as you know, I get to a dark, it's heavy and its, I tell you how you gonna get into that, and I got him at a good moment, because I think This will, ultimately, what he started to share was the other. Balance. It he s derived between. I don't think that his public persona is disingenuous, but it's what guy through, I agree, I think I think that his conviction that doing the work and finding themes yeah is saving his life as much light saving. Everyone else's life. To me, that's the only way you can play. If you wrote, when you were twenty five, forty years later, with the key,
in a conviction, actual right, like almost spiritual, religious conviction right. I think here leslie, feels it saved my life? It continues to save my life here and I mean it with you, therefore right and that's why people have a thing with him. Again. It's like it's a different future pussy feel comfortable is on stage. He said: like the only place where he can trust and feel ok and you're, not afraid. You know, I think, from people I knew I knew David Bowe a bit Her Magdalen, I'm not sure everyone we do. I knew I knew David Bowe a bit here. We lived around the corner from each other in where New York, New York, I at least have coffee with them. Times, and he was incredibly valuable in a different way, but also cause. He would sit with you like this and he would look at you But you know Davy Jones here and just be like.
Hey yeah like like. He would talk to you as the guy just like us. He does the work right, builds the thing He puts it out there. And retreats back into a very healthy for I place on the whole you he was very very great. I think it saying you know, not everybody to live in the thing it doesnt have be a thing. You walk around in all that time. I didn't hear anything about him. You're like that's right. He didn't He was like the king of the that you guys after and yet Shifter absolutely the guy who was like hey. I stand for the freaks and the weirdos. Everyone outsiders by people were right. Crying on the floor when he died, because people were like that, guy we made it ok for a weirdo Yahoo, yeah we're do. I owe you like. No one else yeah, but then, if he said he'd say you build it
and you can hang it on the hook and walk away from it and be yourself because some like you do in your thing. You are who you are and Not every actor is gonna have an effect. Per unit. Some do ya I think what I'm always kind of. More and more here, I know weighing you're taking on China like not key, acting by remote dont prison. The path on remote. Control or on cruise control. We are likewise do another movie right. You don't I mean and working less may actually have a double value of letting me be mean more within a path. That's Your interesting for completely other reasons, other endeavours, not public or other parts, your brain personal reason, personal or even just do in other types of work.
You, like the beginning sure you know what I mean. I feel like a different ceta muscles, and then you know Have the privilege, if you like I'm pretty little, about this, I can't get this out of my head. This is that thing that I Neither do I want to do more. Or I've got some to say, go, I can do it and it won't be lessened because you haven't been. Aren't you oh you're, not going out your want a year. Rivalry it'll be better. Why you like haven't seen you in a while. Yeah I mean I feel, like I know, you're doing again. You're you're, like we were like sentimentally, breaking out their lucida. You like I need a dose of whom were that northern gas worthy. Then I got him input and put on death snatching how ya doin nothin. I love. I love it when people, why it's a very telling thing when the real barometer, if a person comes up and that's the first
Unlike near my eye, like white, when people guy I loved you and death of energy the guy. So you're New York and you're doing that thing, you started a theatre group to wit, sort of Yemen. My friend Gmail created this thing called the signature get her company that was, a brilliant idea. He gonna, like everybody, gets retrospective exe. Playwrights. What what if we just did a theatre company that did the body of work of a playwright that was each of its season, and he enlisted great play it's really early on, because nobody treated them that way right. Nobody said What are you doing Edward all, be guess what will you do? holding an and you curious what You feel didn't get understood or downright everything, and they flocked to, and I got involved very early on as an after the end was might like my first paying gig.
But then it will. It was such a singular and cool thing. I I sort of join that company and get to work without being and other people like yeah yeah. We owe Arthur Miller and SAM Shepherd, really Orton Foot area men and do a yo yo. We did seasons with every great american playwright, whose life there is still an and then later gemini many Layer, Gemini built this huge performing arts centre on forty second street, that what you It's all right. It's three, three theatres Bulgaria designed it and if I have been there, I'm sure you ve been there are a great little intimate any bakers. Yes, yes, you are one of our writers and resident yeah great for three, John there, yet Riah absolutely ha. I was there, that's great! Well I mean that must have been my blog. I mean, which would give like a coincidence in time to get him but something like that meet the same shepherd to work with them personally or an l b as well yard and foot I mean Jesus, neither the menu the Gates Marie, I mean foreigners
Kennedy would lose you daddy. Where I sat here I did some jobs toughen in school, but I said he with a variety of people in New York. I trusted very. Few people now thought most have were most. Was Bessie the ones attached to legacy name acting right programmes, getting into it. They will tail end of someone else's legacy tried and hold onto a lighter holter personality right. They were created, dependency between themselves and actors, not they were actually Trajectory trying to empower actors to be professional. Trying creek create keep the cult going yet at basically the constant you're not ready right this guy Terry Schreiber was a truly he. He was like to me a great carpenter. He would say you need are the tools in your kid You should know about this idea vision of how to approach the but that won't work in ivory and you know about this and right- I thought it was the right thought
I remember thinking at the time actually early on. I I did this film. You know my first some from fear. But then I was in his Woody Allen. So my do we are financing around. There was a musical yes, I always like yeah, it's like. So all we are all your sense. Memories gonna be really like a great help. Do you know when you do in my head? The ants in hair, Winston, you know means is the notion. I still think that the notion that there is an idea about acting- that's encompassing here is it's ridiculous sure is completely wait. Wait now to go from formal, feared that the musical aiming was that, like some like when prime of your breaks and in its exciting and big- and you know everyone's lit up about you and you, offered. Unmusical I mean were you I come just driver and I'd think get dancing, but it wasn't. I got. I need that. I made that before open before the first million came out. I am I made them immediately. Horses, Larry Flint before Maybe I came in here now, yet we were just finishing it up
It came ass. He did sort of a rush of movies and which was wonderful, is incredible time. I I still feel- it was very heavy but by weight, for the reasons that become complicated people going Bob I'd so great, but more cause no but he's bothering you nobody sandy things, but you're working with Milos Foreman right, you know and who to me as one of the like, probably in the pantheon of the top ten, people in film that I would have fantasized about working. With an I'm getting to sit at his feet like and watch him. Do it it me forever. At an end, it was unencumbered by bullshit. You know that no New York, no one knew you were and he was haven't go off in work on the script them in a while
He validating me and it's not in it. Is these values landward? If, yes, then, let's let's work, let's dig in: let's do the thing on exhorted set a standard here. What, but what could be better and any thought that like this is like, because rare rarely do people work like that yeah he he was he was very unique in the sense tat he had this baked in what I'll call healthy perspective, because you know you. He lost his parents to the Gestapo leaves nine. You know he survived. The live. The war out is an orphan and then comes of age. Here. The communist like you know the iron curtain system has to become an artist up and through that navigation yeah and then gets trapped out by the Soviets cracking down in Prague. Some movie in the: U S, it doesnt dwell at all, and you know he Tommy considered suicide. He said he thought I can't go home. I have
no career. I have nowhere to go here and he may cookies nest which, by the way, nobody wonder, but they made it independently here all the studios path. On every single studio passed on it and they spent months putting it around a critic, Michael Douglas yeah. I am I because of what he said. Michael Douglas said, you go take a vacation. I got this and Michael in a muscle, Dat move around to critics here until there was such a weight behind did me: I got Dislike Lois, he'll from arise, but again to me here's a guy who is just like hey everything, that's great feels have fate you every image, memory and saying to me like I was there sounds like I don't buy that there's things about this at all, understand and the way he was so different from things life and related area with Flint or yeah there that the script Amelia. What was he going for housing things? It was the way worked so fluid and so on unstructured. He would
cross cameras, so that, if anything happened, he got it here. He would let. Improvisation, between actors go on and on and on do you I can provide. I do yeah, but I sometimes Where I was at the time coming from theater, I it I found it. Of going all we're supposed to be doing, one thing today and if we, if we see, it happen as though a well performed play yeah. It can't possibly have been gotten and then he would Sort of now you know I got this little bit that little and I began to realize that he was. He was just going clay out of a cliff right. He wasn't even remotely attempting to sculpt write anything he He was. He had his maneater for indeed that go against everything you believe every well. It was incredible as I must talk about, like you know when like tat about learning the other things, his sense of the plan the of film amazing, he believed in casting an editing and shooting was just filling up again
I can write that he was gonna assembling, Jeanne around later right, Adam. That was in terribly eye. Opening to me and you, I think you ve been his thumbs had been nominated for, like as many as anyone his you're like that, and here he was like every single one that I've done felt like this is a view half baked idea or where we we're way out on a limb were failing IA everyone's telling us prevailing, no one wants to see a movie about Mozart. No, you know I mean these things and when you downloaded from people who have done. Thus shit right. You're like this is like the forever stuff here, and you realize that for them, if beyond risky. Not on the rails right, it's a very important thing to learn to learn yeah, because then you just you gonna get into the weeds on it, thing: why do that? Has ambition you're gonna get into the weeds?
and the only way to not panic anyway. To actually lean in is to go this is how these go like this is. This is how these go right, like the sensation yeah. This happened. The sensation of disaster right is ready intrinsic to many of the best things, and he I may I Maginot experience out on a few movies. I mean I've. Your features like a brilliant demanding in kind of hard to did to work with in terms of takes and whatnot. Yet yes, but let's start, the thing is that the thing that I find myself always wanting to lay call bull shit on young people. People will say you ve, read, reductive challenging he challenges directors here, like fish, there's challenging he's demanding it's like yeah, but The idea that we don't like that is ridiculous, actors know that we all did before cook. Bait click bait makes it worse, but the manufacturing of antagonistic stores, you're
Is a load, a shit like it's like great Things come out of people pushing each other hard, yeah and Fincher, pushes everybody heart and he's review by everyone who worked with him for it. You are you're some funny. He I interview and we did like two and a half hours and he decided was incomplete and he wants but isn't but I'm not any say, like always relieved the funny I didn't say resort as budgetary. He doesn't want to takes. That's absolutely all. I use a heart ass, any says kind of proof. Sleep extreme things together, let the he's he's the funniest. Motherfucker I mean he's so funny and he's got vision Emmy. Nobody can do. I had. I only had to watch to that guy's movies and go whatever he's doing to get that. I want to crawl inside in and
periods. What it is, it doesn't mean it won't be difficult and it doesn't mean that you won't say hey what about this. What about that? That's, how things that are good, get done and- and the thing is like the people who were chasing those things when you get it done, you're like locked in for life like you, have experience together for life, and then you- and you also have the evidence of the work when also it's like. I finish not like exerting eager were domination right, although he public. Oh yes, I am not be he's. Not he's he's trying to make something great. If you go for the ride and is at the end, If your name into shaken hands your leg, survive yeah. We did it with you. We want to help combat, yet we did it. We we didn't fuck around it didn't come we didn't come here. You know to crews, control again. We came here to like see. If can we do anything trusting and when people for a card or push hard or have opinions that are about the
thin, nobody who serious goes what an soul, because it's not that are not its it when people are making about them or its where it's all about friction having nuth per for all things to the thing itself via you known but he is noise yeah, why mean cassettes both from what you're saying in from the guys you work within the trainees sort of got on the job with me. Four men in an adventure in any event what he out to a certain degree that you know, It seems that what was certain inside of you in terms of who you respect in this going back to actors. To is that you know we're here to do the best thing we can do and if, if in a situation where I don't feel that's happening, you I'm going to have to step up, yeah or or I'm just trying to reconcile whatever this reputation mandated also value being challenged. Well, it's also. It's also that there's not a lot. That gets
done that really messes with your head via in any number of ways that isn't a tricky beast. Now and when you're doing it like finding those things, it's it's tricky its. Isn't it It means its elusive in Europe, you're out on limb in a creative sense, and it's almost two million Is very hard to imagine something: that's real. The good that wouldn't be hard. To do why some level sure most of the pictures of fight, the vague, eight in fact, finches sent me this. He just sent me this Some magazines quantity, the twenty year thing of it said aid is bunch pictures from the set right here here they are, we send Amelia and is looking at and I should first of all we're all laughing we're all just we're all laughing and all these pictures or would be an absurd, and I I just I was going looking at these pictures, I was filled with. They made me laugh it made me. I was filled with a feeling of like
facts in bordering on, like longing eyes like this is just this was just is we were like you. Ok now can go through all things get we and we were on and we recommend ambling right yeah. It's great I think I think, there's world theirs is filter world. That too, stories about these things that sound good, because they have conflict venom. It happened when we did Martinez checks, but, like worked, I worked hand in glove with Tony K. We running a gun in the gorilla rang. We shut that thing like true guerrilla style and he said that we would like almost be, Tears at the the struggle when we get through stuff, we're like hugging each other, and what was the struggle of the movie down the road it is. It actually had very little do with me, despite the delay to Tony, is very
passionate, artemisia, very passionate and he a great photographer to which is not being reductive. He is a he's. He shot that film shot and operated here. You know and- and he gets him inside it- I think he struggled A lot of density of new wants that we all felt you won't get this right, like the others. Of density to a lot of intensity allotted density. New, wants that we all felt you won't get this right. Leg is saying some stuff: and you want to make sure the balance of of the kind of this the impact of these very negative, antagonistic ideas. Younger rage It resolves out into the tragedy here you needed to be for it to have a over them. The message or healing theoretical, bright and other bounces night, and I studies anxiety, it was important. The work to him. You want the press as to go on and on and on and their became these like logistic,
all right realities in the studio that when it reached a certain point, they mostly just put it. Half on like right. This is as far as it can go and then what I would call the performance artist of Tony came out who has done really funny things over the over the here's the ATA performance heart, provocative pieces and kind of started. Turning his relationship. With the studio, and I that kind of, like you'd, o pulled into it by default in a way here cause me and my friend, David David had written it. We had rewritten it in here and of our story anyway. So I was involved in it, for I only but ultimately what he turned his like argument the studio in this kind of a performance, our peace, any tat needed seem honestly something more negative right than it was when you are in truth. They just didn't you. And tony Tony Tony, you is a provocateur right, but if like, if
sought Tony today. I know for sure we'd run up to each other and I'm cinnamon using you fear. He knows we made something like really amazing. Terrific again- and I know I've heard from all I know- is proud of it, and I am proud of The way we did it together was was ball. Out like it was, it was great, it was. It was actually great How do you feel like in retrospect honestly and in his personal for thing, for me in? Do you feel like you, you dodged bullet with you know not having to be the hawk for your life. It's not like that. I I saw, within this theme of kind of the man accurate of of yeah problems where the honor I dont think I I don't know, does the boy because that would sound like I haven't you.
The view of our relieved that you're not the hawk today that not even relieved. I think we re it's what I would call a win win. You know what I mean like. I know, and I really mean it like really right. First of all, the scope real, what that character, is. I grew up on that. I grew up on the the com book idle, Bixby show you know I learned Rebecca yet totally landed, Anum subscribe You have the marble title. You loved it lawyer debate. Is a terrific actor. Shorter van is a terrific actor. The there's me and Mark buffaloes, like one of their sex, was my generation. You know it's like that. Be telling right instead of like, like God, it is like the people you care There has a something so like mythic in it here that People of substance have taken.
Wax added lay a hamlet. I mean it's like you know, I mean I mean an idea that being part of that fast it clear it's like it's. I love it. I love I love that my kids, when they would see it it's like being part of the tradition of people who have done something sure good I got in the Lula, Terrier, and I were really trying hard. Marvel hired me to write a version of this directive to rewrite the script. Leah did and actually wrote like a to film. They weren't ended, whole thing yet of this merged I argue universe that wasn't happening in a rural area there and when I went in when they came to me and said, like this I said: listen, I do it if we could take this on sort of them Chris no one took on Batman, we re talking about that. At the time. I like long, dark and serious kissing, longer serious and I were in a kind of pitched too film thing of like hope, rising and hoped Rex, like that was my idea. Was that one
the origin story. I really am stood is kind of a person. Able to manage hallucinatory trip we away and the idea that in the next one he's coming into his capacity to lake, be occur, she's dreamer and away, or we will be able to control eyes near yet how yet and that I was merely like the flicker at the end of the movie right and we had. We had things I deeply comic. We were incorporating care to SAM and things that were were really deep, part of the issue of thy rat mythic story and and Louis, and I were He turned on by the idea not to sound like hell about it, but have actually kind of like I think no one did so successfully. The dark- I go yet with a dark going into that when that print kind of a vigilantly thing, the hawk is approached its the myth of Proteus. It's like the guy who reaches for a fire of the gods and get burned right and carries that burn
and has a moral quandary. That's why we love the bill. Bixby show cause he's he's he kin scape he seeking a redemption run. The curse is put on himself via an and that's, We were really turned on by, and I think you know. Ultimately though, initially enthused about a certain. I think there was in retrospect There was an idea tonality of this thing that was gonna. Maybe all emerge and come together. Scared people or it it. It was one, those things I did currency of opinion, in a tone of direction. In total weight of seriousness and adult complexity, it should bear weed urged you know I'm here. I am with Ultimately, it wasn't it. Ultimately, they were there call and it became
More of one thing than another, not ruined, I got a lot of people really enjoy it, and there are many aspects of it in a way. I think they were really dig it yeah and I'm glad to do. It was out appointed yeah. I was disappointed. Only because the aspiration I thought we'd, been taking aim at for the little. Or change to me and without it throwing it under the bus where I live, Llewelyn Terry. I thought he was like a wonderful purse then a really good artist and area, and the truth is two degree. I disappointed here. A little bit angry, it had to do their work for who were long gone from Marvel, who had come sold me. I felt the bill of goods That's what we want right. That is what we want where you are saying here, that's what we want and now it wasn't which Sometimes we ve gone. You know I wish
low, Strader about like what the depth of tolerance was for what we want to go for a ride enemies. It is there once more Kevin Foggy here. I got him like a house on fire. I think a great guy real comic fan right over there was people running a shop. Had time who are not comic that right who actually did not totally get lake. What I was about, but we too, the measure of the whole thing look. You know I had last year I did a different kind. We have ever done it's important great tradition. There a thing was being engineered much larger than it itself it will mean we are physically unawares. Like love, armies, much money that I can't in you know resist it might, but, but Ultimately, the right thing happened, which was not had no negative emotions formulated, which was as I can do it you're going.
In a way in a direction and that's great and number one. I saw some stupid thing o mark in everything park. Ruffles like one of my dearest friends in the business, is he's one of the main idea. We came up the same tanya I M is one my absolute favoured turns out they write a pitcher against each other in our now just Pierre people, it's like this thing and it's like it's like nothing could be better than being in the club with mark. Yes, the funniest thing. We laugh about area, he has kids, it's it's the greatest if fit with what he was wanting to do at the time. Aunt em and by the way I pursued things that were priority for me. Yeah I get to make bird man, I D Grant Budapest and, most importantly, I read We focused on writing a thing It's been in my head mothers programme and made it the end. It was hard to make. It was hard to give the resources together. It needed my focus.
It's been two years that have been set we started shooting it. It was five years before that, trying to get the money utterly yet and I an idea is difficult and it was, deeply felt, and I wanted total focus like if I could not have done the work as an actor I couldn't, I will only be able to do bird man sure at the time, which is why the Greeks, creative sperience of my career. You have grant and I wouldn't made my own foam. That's been passion, project mine for a long time, if a minute, so I am throw thrilled and marks had a great lake is great and has great thing exonerate and by the way this is crazy. Thing is like Kevin, find you, the guy who rancey that guy has, as a comic fan, the execution on that like vision visit its has to be one of the most successful things
ever been pulled off in the movie business in the trade? This like integrate. Thing like does nothing like it ever the marvel you yeah he like in terms the following: an idea and a plan that was True to the world of the comics and the way they all came together. They annihilated it, I mean they ve killed it. I get that. Do you think it's a culturally good thing. Down at an artist. It's it's it's a that's dip, discussion, which again people can really misinterpreted thing, fact that I am I like the fact that I might, I think you you as a Disney shareholder anchor. You know, you're, like these guys are doing what they were charged with doing church and its end and look. It has lots of joy in it. It has lotta a lot of the humor and off that thing, but you know I. I have my concerns that have nothing to do with
Marvel per SE. I I you worry about lake? Let's put social media you know at the top, nonetheless dangers on to me. I think by Jones. Is movie was really? Are to something her if people are descending dangerously in This vortex of. Of narcissistic, sir, narrative and fantasy and fantasy and the fantasy. A component of it. That I think is. If you say so dangerous is that it's like high, fruitless Porn syrup it's enough thing makes everything tastes good, an addictive, but it It ain't making you healthy. If I you be a healthy physical him being right, and I think that thing turn people into passive receptors
of narrative in which the dopamine gets sort of Jack Jack Blight, not only is nothing required of them know, can no challenge, no provocation to no real of questions throw raising of questions like what am I supposed to think facing the problems the. What am I supposed to do? What is my morality, one? What? What is these things and you You look at our country and you worry, maybe just general they speaking, how what are we doing its creating evaded people who don't think supervising and drop out the sky and fixed of, but where their view of what is heroic is actually warmed by a sense of being pro active, being themselves person who, as a human being with a lot of
daily battles and fucking. Problems in everything is gonna, get up Their ass and do something about anything. A lot of what we are doing is not cultivating those people, you know them. And I think that arm Let me put it this way. This matrix of social media is to me we ve to take them measure of of the damage being and by the turbocharging within it, of all the worst. Demons in our nature and also just the onslaught of information. The pummeling every day. I think if we in a wee wee like these, they were the first tv generation the up, and you look like I remember one Nirvana was hitting and people were gone. You know why so dour. Why so things all the baby boomers we're gonna go unlike the are. What is all this slight? What error never mind like where's, your where's, your and in annual just like pages, like just buzz right
off man like every year. We are larger in for a lot more information, alot younger than you had a lot more reason for us This is on the up to me. I don't even think you can measure the multiple of intensity that social media and the distortion that the intensity of that information. Can flow, which now is highly untrustworthy to admit depopulated by. By outside actors to to mess with brain brains and to mess with people. Sense of civic connection to each other in Ireland and the truth. Yet the truth, via the we got, we got litter leaf. Roy Daddy scary, and unlike you, combine that with combine that with this amendments calling for people voting for it or yeah, and- and I think that and that that is, that is
Mary Ann and, like you, combine that with the things that I would say, deactivate people you know, act as a near by fructose opiate? Everyone call it it some, I do think lake. He know what the witch housekeeper Lake put this idea of people as copper top like the plug, doesn't have you in the back your head to be gettin dangerously close to where you're being turned to an aspect of the things that separate you from your money. And soon cell yeah and in many ways a pawn in these games of, like they taught the mathematical no crowds, you know I mean, there's things that you're part of you, your nihilism, has been mind to you
you and your anger, as as a sort of part of an ideological momentum that you might even give a shit about in my negative about it. I would even say it you ain't, you know it's your fear, it's! What's what getting mind is your fear cause all human human beings have anxieties. The world is just an anxious place and our brain is literally formed by millions of years of evolution to have a very strong. There is a strong loop, there's, a powerful loot between the pact, the imaginative power of our minds, the ability to concoct You know anxiety the earlier it activates are adrenal system, it perks us up and the things that just tweak that in ways that amplify fear an amplified. What I would call the negative reaction to fear or the defeating reaction to fear, which is essentially
anger, enmity sense of conflict. The sense of the faceless other visa is like part of what you should, you know, resent be afraid of whatever sure, all of that he activating the harder thing, which is to say I am anxious, I'm afraid of a lot of things, and I got my own deep well daily grind. Struggle whatever MIA, but what is it that gets you sort of two go. I've got I've got reserves this stuff I can do. I can be. A part of it, and I can I can pay it forward positively. You know I mean this is like and engage other Punic, Adrian rival and gaiters other people in real life and try to cultivate up, positivity and yeah and live in the world and be an actor in the world. Emily
funny is. Is this film that I made mother was broken yeah it? It actually took me it's in detective. You know how I, what are you you got? Syria has great took meal. It's me a while to get around in my own way to imbracing that what were talking about was a big part of it, because the character that I plays afflict, is afflicted and in his afflict and he's gonna gone down into this whole of. Of isolation and marginalization. He's not really moral person which, like most nor the detective characters, aren't there that the person who the guy, the shadow we're like they get you into the outer world eyes under this rosy american narrative right yeah that was great about the still no war. It is like Hey Sonny, California the place where you go to change your life, making American dream guess what built on the theft of war, and incest Yoda me like
whatever it is like the crime as China, yet grime under the did you hear that Eric and story were tellin and here's what s really going on radio. So it's always, as it's always had a healthy, don't think it is just cheap, John, I think it's, namely the outer real, reveals the others that are in need of a mere. Usually those characters aren't aren't necessarily moralists there and allow times their anti heroes gathered a lot of times. All they are is that very american thing of going home. And put one over me and I don't like it. You know not only them end of dying, Amelia, red memorials of dying or like Nicholson ends up like repeating what he did the past, where each eye to help someone insured together in the worst way, and you you didn't muttering to himself as It is possible as little as possible, like it's like the old, bleak nihilistic lake. I kind of like had this moment where I thought. Maybe this terrific detector,
who's been abused by so many people in isolated because they know what it was in either and I had ten rounds see the unseen here. Has He said to himself. You know what I really don't. I really don't give a shit about the forces of history. Leave girl. You now leave her alone and an that's enough for me the eight thousand interesting turn, but I, but as it got, but as I got going further than from the book. No, no the book takes place in the nineties. It's a very freely It's a very liberated the adoption of the book interesting, but I I I stay. Feeling a lot of what we're talking about. I was like I, I I felt actually, that the character, the issue about the raw plays is a moral and ethical person who's, a black woman who's in the fifties whose really a lawyer and is seen as a it could she's fighting No she's fighting and when he hears about his problem, she kind of says she sympathy
big, but she goes, we all got are yeah are daily battle scenery and he and she will it registers on him that she's, she's on the lie she's on the barricades here in a way during the real figure, an end in the end, I think I realised that it. I wanted to break away from that kind of dark. The thing an end, because in the end you know Have him be effected two degrees he realizes like saw pretty monolithic and faces and big, but I'm gonna take a swing. I'm gonna ominous stick a knife in it in some way that I can his grizzled instantly tat memorable character and I felt kind of greedy about it in a way. In time. The character was great in this novel motherless Brooklyn, if Greece of Instant can a memorable character and I felt kind of greedy about it in a way I was like. That's that's five course me.
Oh sure, every area is short. I like underdog, correct, yeah, you I'm sure you Johnny, he asked I find it very interesting y yeah, it's real, but it's also just off the wall. Yeah, it's it's a lot of things, and yet all these powers, axis I loved it, but I've always been interested in what went on in New York. In the fifties, I felt that there was your construction. Yes, it's because it interesting that thou above and character is yes, it is obviously resonates now he is sort of a trompe in character in a way. The now does not. I think, the charter. China is a more on the end and are you in an album of people who are actually Jean right right, but there the power Elam? Yes, yes, and then you go around. Power, right in the middle of the Post war period of light left
However, in things happen in America on a wide as they all these guys at your device it all. These guys were in the Fox hold together in some way, or some of them went to war. Yeah yeah, I mean cause you like. You, don't see that enough about that generation actually coming home, yeah an end, And the way that things did, you know things. Changed a lot between the depression before the warm and what Erika was after the war is kind of is expressed in the form. It is like. We went from a country that was totally focused on on health, each other rise out of difficulty. To a country. That was where power was essentially became the currency of the realm? You know we became power or became thou value right, and we built this military industrial com this global present says the as a superpower end and for all of our talk. We we became the bully in some ways
You're, the one that we have you know it's like, you, what do you? What can burns is that Vietnam, oh yeah, I'm fine bone slowly shattering and had an idea. Did you yeah It's that it might. My father was a veteran easily enough. That is marine and I had read. You know, studied and read, and he was aired yeah yeah, using in sixty seven see DMZ, but here, but the thing in that it all the waste, all the pain, all that everything, but you go back in beginning of that, and I thought can really illuminated in a way that is so important for people to take. In that light, Hoochie men was reaching out to the United States specifically and saying now that we have fought this war with. You fought the Japanese we are you we
are you in seventeen? Seventy six. We want to be free people, we want come out from under the yoke of european imperialists. You know count colonial em. We are you, you are beacon, help us become you I mean literally here. They were saying that in writing that to us they they wanted us not like a generals. They wanted a year leaning in to help them become more like rice right and an we saw we power brokered away. We said to the hour pals, you know HU. We bailed out of world WAR two got ya, go back in and build your french colonial plantations in slave these people again, and then what they get pissed off and feel like betrayed to reach out to you, know people we ve, and tat in China and the Soviet Union, and you think about it, the magnitude of the Miss
on that. You think about the magnitude of horrible? It is here that we sent all these young people to lose their lives and kill three million Vietnamese, shattered, shattered our country shattered lives, basically to bully and try to put down people who came to us saying our impulse is to be you. We want to be like Alyosha, it's it's so and that I just thought that film everybody in America should see a foam because this this notion that it's not like flag waving patriotism without looking at what the delta. Where do we go? What's the delta between like since you, you said the America were trying to be, the America were still trying the be all and end what we're doing you can't call yourself patriot. If you don't say
we're gonna revisit these narratives an account for our Missis, I talk to your father, but oh yeah, I mean yeah, I'm in here he was, he was thought. It was one of those things you might have watch Vietnam's of a red and he's a historian scholar, but but I think I he might have been only convergence could allow gotten into like sit down in an Ray marinate in all anyway, but it it's a masterpiece. I mean. Certainly I agree absolutely. I agree with my own eyes right is it can stop watch and making them always a masterpiece? It it it's. How but she talked to you know that, Fourthly, Vietnamese. You know- and it was tat like wordy- find some of us now It is a mindless know. Every American should see that elderly or how did this inform owner, was working well because in the fifties yet, New York City, which at the time it was the becoming the The capital the world essentially was
under all the narrative of what we think led New York to become them? Our cities is the truth of it is New York The state were run by an authoritarian autocrat with absolutely and contested imperial power, who was a racist? and who and who literally baked his racism into the infrastructure of New York, modern New York and the the segregation of New York, the creation of what became actual slums, the projects was a function, Of the racist will of like one person who never held Like the office and completely. Overwhelmed all of the democratic institutions designed for progressive ideas to build move word, and nobody knows this, like the people know it but very Few people understand the degree to which, like, like you know it,
if you look at New York in the fifties, this set the ability of the affair, can system to hacking by the impulse towards brutal authoritarian racist control was was like on sharp display in New York. That period? even as the sky, was competent as one of great public servants and a man of the people. You know I mean an and he was literally doing things like building great public beaches and then setting overpasses at a level that, upon all that self was true in all true yeah, see really set out. As I said, I right when I saw a common producer. I said it's like the Chinatown for New York City. I get it. Like it, I mean at that of that flattering. I think, but no the complexity. The plot, like it, you because it's you know you know I watched all movie. I was completely engaged. I was
engage with your character. I was engaged with the unfolding in the narrative. I didn't know who the bad guy wasn't feeling after so gently and you know it's one, those kind of movies where its clear a period, peace, it's in a war but were- from the beginning. You right I'd pay attention there. There's things going on yet in this is gonna really come together in a lot of different strands and it really It helped me the whole time and then I realized tat. Now they know it's true. I must be a moron too now know the deeper history in on your weight by way. So this is really important because I found you read. I really think that sometimes critics there's this tendency and Do you think it's an aspect of the residual effective watching the kinds of passive experience he that we're talking about There is an assumption that audiences are tired, jaded, not interested in.
Suffocation or complexity or narratives. Did they feel behind right right, but the idea that an experience of a store That's convoluted and that yours you're not sure it's gone in the union. Sure your clear on exactly what is going on is in, and An experience is is so ridiculous. It's like the people. I think people get there. He checked out when they are ahead of the story. You know when you get ahead of a story. What is its weight? Turns you brain into my, should get your talking about them and I think that, but also comprehension is not the goal. The of all great art, like Bob Dylan ain't lookin for you to come, her hand no right what the hell sure you know, tangled up in blue means or whatever you like an end to me. If you
come away from a throw my mother's Brooklyn having drifted through an aesthetic experience and terror. Through that carries you through it in, in the same way that, like forest Gump, takes you through right, the history of everyone, again after the war in only mean like, if you, I'm through it and you go. I felt empathy he pulled on my empathy because guy's, an underdog, and I want to support the underdog an eye. I have had the experience of being made empathize the the history of New York. Did this happen to us? Was the city The second level you kind of come away with just an essential sense that lake These things really happen. Is this history of New York. Did this happen to us? Was the city this way where national yeah, then then that to me is a success because you have provoked the question you have provoked if believe any watch a movie and says
Did they really do that? Did they put bridges to low floor buses to keep blacks and Letty Nose off of Jones Beach, like I showed an early catholic, Chris Rock and George Wolfgang Theatre director. Ankara's at me is that it true, and I like it. He does that mean it's my mind, you know it. I mean like a, and I think that that's six as I think. Well, you did you knew what they were, what you created to because of the period piece in the way you shots of it. It does at times feel like a man the goal landscape, like you looking at that old city at New York and for what it was, and he found these beautiful shot into sought so nicely in the light is so nice? And yet, when you come up on that Authority building. Yet there is a sense of sort of like is Is this real aid because you do create the power that, guy that out Baldwin's character as
is being representational of of sort of will and unbridled power? Yes and the reality that power centres are not where we are I'd like the ice. You read the obituary of one of these guys and realize lake, We're assessing like the legacy of the Coke brothers, as they write go there you don't great reward like Where will you know it's like you? If you read the obituary of one of these guys and realize lake. Modern american conservative politics has essentially been engineering dictated by disguised energy business, who figured out a very clear acts? Machinery for distracting you with kinda kinds. Like social arguments. While they You know how the rules you screwed you and I think it's like that. The idea that power is not only not where you think it is in american life, but that people who the mass that kind of power ten. To be the ones who are also
Expressing that in me too era in which is that we have only really begun to fully account for and corrupt. You know, Indiana can hold to account sure right and again, like you people going shithead, you know how much of this are we willing to tolerate like what he is gone about Chinatown is dead, I challenge anyone. You things become a classic. I Think of you wipe two persons hard drive and they watch that fell there's nobody who watch that phone for the first time who any idea? What's really going on a tenth of the way through the movie? Now you have no idea what's going on and if he asked a hundred people who say it's wonder, that's films. Fifth year her. What happens they couldn't? rate that that was the whole joke of it. Is that you he gets his nose got the snoop gets Jaska, yet you cause legal, you couldn't finding own. He that a number of people, not one in a hundred, could say
Their dumping water during the drought to drive prices down on the things that I can pick up things under the names of old people through this thing called the albacore club yet fortunes. Nobody remit! is that they remember that EL a corruption is that it stole its water and for these were made and that the peace, who doing that were also fucking, her daughters, leg literally? That is the fact that the kernel of what were taken and because to your point, that is this monolithic romance vision a valet. It isn t Ella. Aesthetic me it is the dream away with the sea me snuff, going on there it and because Nicholson is, his version of of the most compelling guy. You note with this great american sense of like young people's screenwriter classes, the motivation he's got no motivation in Chinatown. He just he goes some
put something over on him. They pretended to be someone else and hired him and made him. Look like a fool. That's it he's like. I don't like being place. That's the whole and eventually it thing to John Houston, like how much is enough: how much do you really fucking need? How much better can you eat and it's just to the point it for its era? it's like saying how much of this or are we gonna get subjected to before we just get pissed, often enough to do something about it. That's all that really, that movie is about right, Wendy, It allowed these coincidental that that movie heads. At the end of the Vietnam WAR rise? Watergate is kicking off rights. We in the funny thing is: is that even the reaction of the Vietnam WAR, and even with your whatever social progress we ve made were were sort of there again or we might not have ever left yeah and that's I think to me the value of goin to the fifties. It's like saying: hey.
This is kind of intrinsic there. Then you know companies doesnt about the deep state it's like, but the truth is the scariest thing in America is the way that Power centre form and Chile Onan and manipulate our politics, and I and stayed again no matter what date, despite the fact that the world is ending yet, even though their there like whether or not their evil their rights. If we intelligent people that are willing to deny a certain sophisticated intelligence in the name of power in capitalism, it did This, however, gamble. Isn't it yet it's an eyelid. It is the definition of a nihilistic burnt you know it's like burn it all down I'll be gone? I mean it literally is: I will be gone so this is what I've been doing this. What we ve been doing. This is what we can keep doing. And you know there's a moment in the film where Baldwin, who is
I gotta say I think- It's one Alex like if I he's a good ally, been in no doubting locked out. I mean if you like, Alec Baldwin England, Glenn rosiak grow like the hefty Lee J. The idea, you know Alex is seize on fire and some party at home. I was riveted on riveted when I watch him, but he has that thing raise giving that speech, and he says you know he literally says, like I look around this room- and I don't see you out of boys or goody goody progressives with their paralyzing ideals. I see you know the p of my tribe, who get things done and that's the Roma the notion that ideas and ideals are in the way of enterprise that that right, might is right. It knowledge right at knowledge, is something to be Poohpooh dire and digest the enterprise. Getting things done- is is its own value, and it's like it. This is sixty years ass.
The era of this thumb were didn't you know were hidden young game and it's weird it's you kind of like how is lived. This is one what women poem he talks about, how everything is the same. The key two hundred years thinking forward to us and that Fratricidle war. He says these things, these incredible riff, unlike disease in the hearts of fresh subtle were in all these things. They are there. Weighing down on me too, and their weighing down on you read in the future and if singer, but I really do think that difference of the age we're living in what you said. We are in the end game, because all all our GEO. Political and social arguments are they end up. Looking like people who were squabbling at a dinner table, while their house barely burned down, top their heads, because There is no, like you can say, like with what the civil war and were still fighting it,
What we want, we rulers on footwear were too, and these things are still playing out there. Communism in democracy in all the dialect These things are working themselves out. The environmental collapse. Doesn't have inhuman time frames a resolution. It doesnt have a snap back in a recovery that we can survive and that's in that's the by product of pure industry pure or that the without that other stuff is like you know, almost a distraction in all this? That's why so violently amoral right now, I think it's like something about. Like my Grandad's generation yeah, he was in the Navy in war were too, and this perceived threat kind of a totalitarian races ideology, rises up this this idea of not just Nazis and but but based. They totalitarianism rise up people say this- is like an authentic threat to
The idea of a humanist like world and work like people all of the world rise up and like give their lives to you know I mean I think that there is a moral equivalence to the people. Now Essentially doing the violence to the idea, the idea of Europe sustainable future on the people, people the end gamers now that the Luddites, the the capitalists, with short term balance sheet pressures, fanatic unused fanatics, saying we care so much about whose, on this in court and appending Roby Wade that we he will align with these false prophets these false christian. I will throw everything that actually defines the value system to focus on these things and we will permit and celebrate,
The moral lie that humans are doing is not creating and unlawful in unlivable were white, but I talk about this on stage are now that the problem, yet you in your right by by the other the deeper thing around that in Christianity, is an order for Jesus to come back. The world has to end so on some level there gunning for it. Of a visa who never spoke to, like Is it such a misguided intensity on the end of times, narrative that they are will and to abandon the actual tenants of g of Jesus Yeah who never spoke to like end of times, but other than to say that a rich man will have the time entering Heaven and passes dive needle abandoned all the court tenants care for the least of
Fear user, you all in recycling, favor of nihilism, Pierre Nihilistic, old testament, vision of like these things, but worse to me, is, We are at this point. I think, where corporate interests The violence that corporate interests is doing here to the When do we live on is, Approaching I action personally feel them a moral equivalent to the violence that was affected by ETA. L, a or on the planet and on people we are. We are moving into where it's not even a false, equivalent to say the number of people affected. At threat of their lives, to the climate, crisis that were engineering is equivalent. To the millions of people dislocated and killed by total
terrorism and war war to millions of people like are going to be displaced, dislocated forced out of homes where fires these it's it's like. Adam and the people who were the people who are perpetuating that the the Sis that's turbocharging this I have a hard time, not like people but not demonizing. One side or the other, I think people who are under the sway. People are being hoodwinked in bamboozled, a hunt percent. You gotta talk to each other. You you ve, got to talk to people. Try whose fear led them. To vote for a shower a tan and also do not believe so. Yeah, and I do believe that there is no journalistic integrity or fair, to be her. You know, there's there's aka, but you ve got to, and I sometimes think that, like it, a guinea Malcolm X, his message for
why marginalize? Why do you need to see you? You are being hoodwinked? You are being bamboozled, real leader would be nice, yet you are but but says yeah. You are being played. You are being aid. You are. You are hard working patriotic a merry Then citizens, and you are being played ground in to them. Scenery of corporate interests over your interest and tending world you are being hoodwinked. Yeah you having hoodwinked, and even if you don't even climate change, literally you're healthcare is going taken away. You're your taxes, are not going to go down. You are and pay four billion years, our companies to get richer and richer and happy expensive at a plant entities, many of you and your children- and it's just like like those we have taught you, but the You know you and you can say, like there were german military officers who right where Nazis right, but the people who, perpetrating these things are, they are the tone,
solitary in future, you're, the fascist of our era and like The idea that we're gonna be massive about that is terrifying. Yes, I agree, but that in it but at the end- and I hope my farmers a lot of fun- the other movies get no but ivy by whereby they like it is that power, but also about the things, but I think it's funny cause you know aircraft wrote. Forest company is like one of the greatest writers of In modern Hollywood, RE wrote for his, I love him and I always use when it has forced Gump gets dislike. And I get so like a rap the I know you eat you relegate in your head to maybe something a little. You know that I can watch it yeah, it's a pretty to thee. Politically yeah ironic, like he's this lovable guy with his
limitations yet through when you watch him navigate, and it is fun fun and it's funny, but it. But it's also like about America eating itself. Yeah, I mean we're an lying to itself and how he is able to sustain up a pure sense of care for someone else, through it. I mean it's it's it's. A much more much more grown up movie than I think we'll darker than we get him remember than you remember. We watch it, but I may I liked your movie alot now yeah and I'm glad we talked about this. I think we should add another note, because we can take and drive it right in Detroit theirs You love forest gum, ill of models for the banks. The airport,
Ok Edward, nor in his new movie mother was Brooklyn comes out there this Friday November. First, I was good conversation. Oh, my god, my phone is transcribing what focus our attention? not necessarily don't forget- watchman- has come to age. We owe inspired by the groundbreaking graphic novel of the same name: game in a window. Offs watchmen is set in an alternate history of present day America or the lines between vigilantes unmasked. I'm fighters have been permanently blurred. Starring, Regina, king and Jeremy Irons, watchman airs sundays at nine p m only on HBO. Ok, all right, I'm fat! You, some good ta.
Transcript generated on 2020-03-25.