« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 1121 - Liz Garbus / Andy Kindler

2020-05-07 | 🔗

Filmmaker Liz Garbus knows the importance of telling stories. Her father is one of America’s preeminent First Amendment lawyers, defending people with important stories to tell like Daniel Ellsberg and Lenny Bruce. Liz used her filmmaking skills to make a documentary on her father, just as she’s done with subjects like Nina Simone, the New York Times, and maximum security prisons. Liz and Marc also discuss her first scripted film, Lost Girls.  Plus, old friend Andy Kindler joins Marc to celebrate the release of his first comedy album ever. This episode is sponsored by Patreon, SimpliSafe, and Stamps.com.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey folks, this system supporting creative people is broken and the covered nineteen crisis is making it more obvious than ever. Patriarch helps creators build a more sustainable income source. By offering a month we membership to their fans, fans then get access to an exclusive community premium content and the chance to become active participants in the work they love check out. Atrium, dot, com now and joined the millions of fans and creators were changing. The way art is valued together. That's patriarch dot com, P, a t, r e, o n dot com. Our eye its do the shop All right, let's do this: how are you what the fuckers, what the next what the fuck it Alex? What the fuck Turkey is what the fuck a crass, what the fuck
then what's happening. How are you as everybody. Ok. Is there a dire tone to my voice right now? Can you hear it? Are you ok talk to me? Can Can you hear me can use? Can you see these look, How many in my holding up Can you smell this? Can you feel me? Can you feel this? Can you feel that Are you ok, snap out of it snow? out of it. I should reach that email. Yeah me get. Although we gave this inner subject line snap out of it mark, Is he a damn thing ever I'm not someone who talks to myself out loud ever, but I was just walking along walking my dog feeling miserable about everything, and I heard you say at the beginning of the dam levy episode. How are you doing you doing all right and I said out loud- and I remind you- I am not someone who speaks out loud to himself now.
Good mark, not good at all, and you said, and I have no idea whether you are quoting the movie moonstruck or not, but you said loudly and in a somewhat share like voice said: about of it, and I did I laughed heartily. Anyone watching me would think I'm a truly crazy person. Thank you and have an amazing day. I will now continue my walk and continue with the episode by We had to share this in the first few moments after it happened. Yours in serendipity, Nick you're, welcome, Nick I hope you're still snapped out of it. It's Is it a fall back into a guitar to stay snapped out of it and my right God, damn oh there's another email. I think this is important by the way my guest today's film director. Usually documentary him, but this is a feature film. This guy is here her film? Ah squirrels, that's it it's streaming on Netflix.
Also directed a of documentaries but she's, the she's, the person talk today. Also I envy killer I'm not saying the Shorty is back, but the Shorty my pop up every once in a while. Now that we're doing interviews and indifferent way, also I want to give you a heads up about the cat the brine Jones Mugs right now I can give the cat mugs any gas, because not many guesser join me here in a garage, but you can get your own ceramic cat mug right now and act like you, ve been here to the garage. These are handmade by Brian Jones. My guy potter guy, my potter pow and donating a percentage of the sales to the Connecticut Food Bank, go to Brian, our Jones Dotcom Swash Shop, starting at noon. Eastern today get a mug here's another email! Please do the? U S p s a solid and this with postal guy MA
I deliver mail and have always been happy to greet my customers and hand than their male when they come out to see me. However, due to the current situation, I'm wondering if you can help provide a public service announcement, which is please what your mail carrier put the mail and the Damn box. We realize that you miss physical and personal interaction, but we deliver to hundreds of houses, businesses and apartments each day. Please help us keep all of our customers safe by now coming out of your house and taking the mail from our hands. I do it. In taxes were not. Everybody is taking this pandemic seriously. If you can help get the word out, maybe I won't have to become a human billboard and were assigned telling people to keep six feet away from me. Thanks a lot and I'm glad I got to see you on your tour? Stop in Dallas last year before the world comes to an end, stay safe, George, our you're, the guy awry say. I do your mail carriers from a distance, the let him put them, would let him put the mail in the box.
Firefox is a general warning in a general way and I don't even know what it means, but understand that angry, desperate people are vulnerable to being told what to do with that anger, and am I I ll be good enough things on the list. Things at angry, vulnerable, desperate people, quite capable of is a problem. Empathy thinking of others. And tolerance just a general heads up in talking about any time. A person talking about, if there's a way that you can reach out, Provide a widow someone with a support to people who were death. Were it angry, vulnerable. That would be a good thing Abby emits VA.
Would help you in them. I don't know how you gonna do it fits with money with a hollow anything. Because it's gonna get bad, and more people are gonna get sick. And that's: what's really happening You'll get, I know, there's a struggle between our cognitive selves and this dissonance it. You know, there's a whole other narrative being pummelled into our brains. We want it to be true, but I dont believe it's true yet. We're not good it might not ever be as good as it was But I one thing I can tell you for sure, as we are not good. And there is some movement on the side of the people and control of some people's minds, saying like all right we'll take ahead of it. What do you won't be you now get back to it. But we're not good. So enjoy some movies.
Try to stay in the present. More ride. This out, your eye, snap out of it. And also I tell you with all the uncertainty in the world feelings If it home has never been more important right, Which is why I want to talk to you about simply safe home security. They are long time, supporters and friends of the show and for good reason, simply safe has made it easy to finally get comprehensive protection for your home. No technician yourselves person needs to come and disrupt your house. You don't need pay any outrageous month we fees or sign a two year contract Order online and set it up yourself and under our your home is pretty the twenty four seven with emergency dispatch for breaking Fire and more offer just fifty cents a day and were not the only fans of simply say U S news and will report named simply safe the best overall homes security of twenty twenty w, You have listeners should head to simply saved outcome, Swash d
DE, I think it a free, hd camera right now that simply saved outcomes, Rice w T have to make sure that they know our show sent you simply if an overseer deputy ever wishing you safety in good health. Also that's another thing it's interesting about this time is that Nothing is going to be the same if and when we get out of this. So even though we're compromised. There is a sort of intimacy to what's happening and most people's lives. You know, back in get deep, feel it. Understand who you are to yourself into people that important you get the love man, tap into the love. Since you have been doing movies, here's the movies. I don't watch and watched ivy swell Lost girls MIKE yesterday directed it out. In a lonely place. It's an old Nick re film Gloria, Graham and Humphrey Bogart Tremendous lane dragged me into the
keen seventies, private Eye Movie hall. The night moves stringent Hackmen, an drowning pool. Storing Paul Newman, neither one those films had I heard of or seen by have had their high points, Dodge waiting men, specifically great, many Griffith Hardway in both of them, as well as teenager almost, I believe the issue Didn't I watched with that day is an enjoy a gardener from Ozark eight actress, really powerful little film the assistant new film. Twice in an office of sort of a fictional lies the Harvey Winston Character it's all on on joy and she's tremendous how It's dead, Tony admin which is a film. I wanted to see a New York, a german film which I I could not see. Is it was always so thou back when it came out finally got to watch a long film, weird film, great film, Tony admin.
Watched in the whole for the umpteenth time of Kirk Douglas Billy, Wilder film, tremendous dark. Interesting, always relevant, ACE in the hall and ride with the devil, a very odd interest. An approach to a civil war movie directed by Angli with Jeffrey will right in escape all rich in Toby Maguire in June. In an jewel never heard of it winter me on vat, maybe two it didn't! You got buried via the studio because I didn't know how to sell it because it was about basically can there is soldiers, one of whom was black interesting, that person with Jeffrey right away. Talk too, and I wanted to watch it for I talked to him. So that's what's going on. There all those movies, I can recommend right now, I want to bring out to bring on a guest at I've had on many times before I love the man his debut comedy album. Hence the humor comes. Tomorrow. May eighth,
you can pre today from a special thing: dot com or get it wherever you get your albums it's about Forty years in making this record- and I had to get Andy and ask him, what's the matter, story Andy, but this me talking there the always funny agenda I just love the guy Andy can, where we all start recording. I just gave you saving grandma, reverting where he got through half of it. The answer. I don't give a fresh. He afresh How's it going over there, you have enough coffee I copy I I certainly we do I, Hope are different lies with dark roast and light rose. Won't prevent does
from Germany, and I got I I really dont know. If that's gonna happen it are you drinking a dark roast now drinking light rose. I know that you enjoy e g tips. I do but listen. I have switched to light roast. My friend I think prior, probably because of something you told me I drink I drink almost sclusively light roast right now I happened to be drinking a darker Oscar. Sometimes I crave the flavour of adults. Growth, but I understand the nuances of the different types waivers that happen in a light. Rest, I understand, will have this the different you used to be it be like do what you just give me something with yours, stupid You must not make us the room somehow now what's that some something's their quota approach copy like intelligence, see if they make a dry across both not really a dock roast, they they want but I mean it may just,
it just there their version of the dock roast, but they don't make any rose. That's like a real doc roast oh. I like a dark rouses when the beans or burnt in oily. Yes,. Used to be called in the old days italian roast right forever or sometimes just like all you you fuck, that batch up burnt. I know feeling ice per I'm so old. I used to have a perker later at Berkeley later. I think those I come back. Why would they? Why? Don't you bring back the peculiar woke me? my mom also had something in her basement which had its. If she had a climax, an old come: oh yeah, that's a big! I think that both the glass bowl on top of the glass ball out better syphon, that decided last call siphons the Glasgow yeah sure those are nice there the towers and that that I smoke pot in the basement of my house, and my father was in the kitchen and I came back of certain. I swore he had smelt it, but he didn't,
This is what he said to me. I get back up there, he goes Eddie. Do you think I'm an no you're very intelligent. Intelligent men, very a bright. He goes whose livelihood Eddie married your mother all these years, He had no idea that I was lucky and you know, is one of those that he would just thinking about the misery of his life, the ass, an I we talked about before I'm sorry to hear about your mother and sister. I know I can't believe I say I just found out. I know this this. I mean I haven't checked. I have a check with people. I thought you knew you didn't know I'm sorry I I mean it I saw them Facebook. I won people now that I've. I texted marked forty five to forty five times now. Maybe we
didn't bring it don't bring it up. You bring it up, one, my telling you you Mr honesty, you know every day you're, even though we much time- and I know you are talking about it when we were there sickness what happened? My parents, my dad died and twenty fifteen and then- and I have this joke- whereat fathers funeral my mother, turned to mangy said Andy. I have to but you were just based on a very, very old job, so that was we very funny until the recent tragedy. And then I just love my mama, who is ninety with Parkinson's and I lost. My sister was a surprise. She was like sixty. Nine is only oh well, and she would sit for many many years and nothing to do with a broader buyers sidelined by people. Taking your mother we have to pursue is ninety. Nine is good and she was also Quaker. She recovered from Judaism to Quakerism we're very spiritual.
How would you call when you watch yourself on your own? This reign was that is that call the I have my new expression. Let go my ego yeah. So about this. I can't let go of it. Tell me tell me about this this this record, that's been of what the forty years in the making that's, I think that's right we'd better, be good for you know all my my new thing now is that got everything I make podcast everything's on vinyl. I don't make anything else, what are you are? You are you burning this in divine right now is going through a mastering process on an analog machine. I music and address this ball for this one, but yeah should correct Bernie a wax did not animal and then your press it into the metal. This within a mole divine, that's right. No! This is something that we Nine. I recorded in two thousand thirteen mark and I had a terrible OECD as opposed to the attractive.
We are a means are not able to fish products by notes. As fifty you may you I came to you when I was fifty and on after all and telling you about that change, but then I got prozac and now the OECD realized. I can never finished things. I can't let them go again please, but let me ask you a question does not have anything to do with the amount of we need. I think ultimately, I'm there. As you know, and as you know, and therapeutic and every time I go into therapy, I expect you to go. Look have overlooked, is the last company. Hers is wasting where would you what your endgame with this? What's your anytime, you have all the gay and eighty day so think- or maybe, if I add we're paranoia too that income forgetting. So I think I am, I think, you're right on this one. I don't think it's quite like a twelve step thing, but I think that Barton Ex. Nowhere, if I use
This is always my issue with pot. Is that a lot goes on in your head and it doesn't manifest into reality that further, and we that bit every child we used to do. He would go I smoke by the think about what I want to do, that I would snorkel get excited about where I was gonna do and then I would drink to forget about it and they use, a bit about how you do a coquet you'd, be with people that you never would hang out with how we kill people for the individual that earlier piles enough. There is a God. If there is a good idea could be made. I never heard that take on it or you kill people for a living. A you gotta do is making a let's go. I don't get it. Do you remember that guy you never Coke guy right oh yeah, and luckily I was unsuccessful yeah during the eighties enabled afford more. No, I had I I could see a way, but if they were night
where I had those underneath the shower. I thought my huh. Who's going to have. No, I think I really. I think I've really did dodge a black dodgeball because afterwards I didn't like the feeling, but now is how an the George Bush jokes, holding up on the record. I think you'll be very happy about this. I included future jokes because I knew it the along time to release it. So I have jokes like we have just for the future. That's a nice code, sir. Would you get that with Bitcoin? you're out of your those- and I refer the President Vainer. I got that right yeah that was way we're resident. There have been more wrong, but otherwise it's exactly sadly say from me taking up prolific, it's pretty evergreen it all. This makes it all worked out. That's good yet does know. There's another me doing a four hour bit about the earth or something about
hey, I think a young member is a whole tv show. He had an apologize for things or something I don't know yet and when you look like, I was sent back to the old things I may Look where I was sent back to the old things I made fun of on the old speech, and you can't, even though what was that, what is that show? Where were we he was a cop and the other person was a bridle know anything anymore- I've become old. I am not up to speed. I can't remember things from three days ago. I dont really give a fuck about. I'm surprised that I dont remember as this rotation I'm having with you goes by is disappearing seconds after so, what's the hope for this record there that you saw how many million but it, what are you projecting know why this is it? I really don't have ambition anymore, like I used to live, it didn't have? When I was younger, I really have let go of Sal's cause. I will, if I did like all among just be disappointed, but I really am lagged get out there. That's the thing I feel like. I
exactly like calmly, central specials. If there's a dead, so I think it's cool. I love Mitch Mitch matches Album Mitch altogether. Of Mitch Mitch, MRS Album Mitch altogether here I kind of like the idea of an audio album so like comparing myself to him, but I'm still alive, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, we remember Mitch, but I think that a wider, your stuff is out there in the hearts and memories of all of Us- Andy this, I really hope something similar to this, When Susan arranges, the funeral that you say you have you gone long, I swear to God. If you go on to stop it great Jeff Wrought is going up. You to you know I'll, go wrong, how Susan doing we're doing good we're both she's healthy. I'm we're not leaving we're both aussi DS,
but we're not gonna, go into Germany areas. I'm I've been in supermarkets. Are you leaving them getting food? We have caught Susan's made dinner. Is I've made debit? They were you deliver the food. They have. The other food delivered their way epic down, we that public, I still don't like wiping disinfecting, dude I shouldn't. Dig it out the back. Yeah there you go, this is gonna really add. Come off. Ass is gonna work good on over on the fog gas. So every talk you are any of our friends now in this debate. I love you realize is but have gotten into the thing in life. Why didn't call anybody and I will go over- I call someone that they think I'm one get together, we'll. What's yours is now Andy. They can't get here there. So I really hope that I will be contacting people, and I am starting to do that. The sight of having like an addiction to social networking yeah. We don't keep it
touch with friends. Really at that point the quarantine really gonna like what not talking people are not feeling pressure did see them at all. I don't know what I'm saying it's about the without the then you really can we allow lines somebody excuses. Somebody Users were blocking me from my all, they gonna wanna come right over there. I want you to come up there. Let's see you so it The oldest ace have fun conversations and the Rhine. You remember those days. Yeah, I know I've been doing that I've been trying to do, but I was surprised at how few people actually reach out to me, but I surprised about that. More people are people assume mature that you're busy you're while you're in the category of people. All he wants. Was he going with me and we have no one's got anything to do right now I got we see this use. Mice was, I should be reaching out you- and I use these views mark
Bessie is one these. They allow its all honour. We now I dont worry my friend I'm coming around. I think people are very hung up on the other variant caught up in their own little thing right now and it's a scam every time. So I reach out to a few friends. I had a few on phone conversations with people. I guess you know like. I really think about it. I only have a few friends anyways and I've talked to them, so that's good. I mean, the fast? And I really do that's the one thing I do. Mrs. I know this goes on forever. Now miss festivals and things like that but alive, he's about being around people. I don't mess. I don't miss. Going to a mega rally and had been spit on media now now, but yet you know Bates its funding, the hat, but Miss gonna festivals. That's all I've been less the years I've been, I got a moon tower. I got the various three all in Toronto, and I really like it because you see you for either get to see around everybody wants. What's the matter?
on call the heads the humor, Do you think anybody on the cover on the back? No thank you. Another thing that guy it will never be a physical copy. I was over That was all I was delaying of bygone. I want physical copy deciding after shows. I never want to see a person after show that the rest of my life with the hand shaking and this nibbling, and this is bad advice, no physical copy so die off back anybody, and where do you get the thing we're you can do is coming on Friday, so be available light on a special thing. There the record label be happy, but then I saw everywhere apple. Ok, would you like to go? I gotta where'd, you get it. Ok, yes, and you too pre by it there. Now I will. I will make sure everybody knows at Andy. I love you very much mark. I hope I have to say to Hungary now on this. But if you could also picture my mugs or when these months
but what you put the name, I afterwards, you know the thing to say what kind of a mug we're going to coffee drinking. What's a brand today. Everything I never had never had a lame Isabella Mona, that's good stuff. Let me try that before his excellent, a Brazilian where'd, you get that average from their wherever they ship, an ally, that's prices, man, but it's good right. That's good quarantine! Cop! I'm ok, I'm drinking imagined drinking. My own brand right now that the deputy of dark, but I love you too body and make sure you love your private. Send that recording that right round, because it's gonna be better- this one was a disaster- ok now. Let me brother levy to propagate. If there was any became liar again, his album, hence the humor comes,
tomorrow May eighth, you can pre order today from a special thing: dot com or get it wherever you. It's your albums. So, one other thing for all our sakes. Folks, we need to avoid crowds anyway. We can right now, but what if you need to go the post office? What do you need postage to send out letters and packages? Don't worry stamps dot com is here to help, but the Good NEWS is that anything you can do at the post office. You can do it stamps that come I've been using stamps outcome for almost a decade since two thousand and eleven, and it has always made sense now it makes more sense in ever. You personally pray official. U S, postage! Twenty four, seven! For any letter, any package, any class of mail for anywhere Your mail is ready, just leave it for your mail carrier schedule a free package pick up or drop it in a mailbox. No human contact required withstand Can you get great discounts to five cents off every first class stamp and after forty percent off you s pose, the service shipping rates, and now
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Documentaries, one about her father and one of them Atta Nina Simone. That was very popular. That was called what happened: Miss Simone LAW, girls is a feature scripted film through first with the aims Ryan, which is streaming on networks, and it's a powerful movie, and this my conversation with whiskers. Our you is made me on the fan. Will that's nice? a fan of yours is: why do we? I dont we ve, never met right. No. But one in my closest friends and almost family member is because The convoluted story is Jesse Parents, Ok, you worked right, I'm glad. I think I've worked with him a few times and am in any case, but it's really nice to meet you nice man makes for having a yes away. Where did you go to brown? You know my friend SAM website, guys
SAM Girlfriend forever and many more aid be outlined are acquired around, but it was I I know I know some very lucky. I met someone who's during my ex wife best friend What the timeline is, but I dont know that many people from Brown, but I just talk to somebody Else- went abroad. I talked a lower linnie. Yesterday she going to Brown, she did but he's older. I think she's older than you so wait where the caper. You hang out sure row and am Marge early April, I came up here with my family to escape the city, for a little while, although I feel yeah tremendously, healthy. And we will be returning, but it has been nice to be have the fresh air are used, I have to get out of New York. Yeah we laughed. I can't let us go break. I was like what are they gonna do whatever its champion. It was a champion problems, radio. We have this option and we avail herself but like how do you like as a thinker
like you hear, your person has done like a ton of documentaries and documentaries. Have a specific point of view I mean. Does the brain. What's your brain doing now, in light of, thing in terms of what you think is: an important narrative. The are you thinking of any on will. Not, I think, for me my brain, I think, pray like me, people can deal with vigour and now you know I envisage that an individual not as a filmmaker. Right individual. I can do today. Could it good you know today is fine I'm I'm glass When I try to project out of your time, listen to you not depressed in tat case with more people. Then I start to think that I can real movement right like how does this work, I think about my children and our childhood. Then you know I also consider sober lying about you know. I can see that you know the look after World WAR one and the end of the day before
with nineteen eighteen, we had the roaring twenty using after world war. Two We got, you know new. We got healthcare, we are expanding, another all kinds of possible. Even after winning or can we gotta, we got Lavater weed. I love well and we did get some other things as well, and I know we had you know increasing the women in the workforce. We had their healthcare and there were good things as well. I'm sorry You try to hold onto that. It has a creator, I'm very entered. Protecting democracy. That seems to me like one of the most important things I think I can add much to the desk. Where is around the signs and corona? But I think that you know ass. I can inspire us. Don't you want to we'll deal is democracy, and protect our rights. So many those are the kinds of things I go June, because we now have a government that reflects. Does it reflect the Lamar of our people doesn't have a majority vote, a murmur yeah and you just
The continue going further down that rapid hold on. I think we are. Direct democracy were representative democracy and we deserve to have those ramp representatives reflect our points of view. What yeah? I think it's interesting to watch dumb. I watched a new film where I think it is lost girls. The first film that you first, some movie movie that you directed Oh god, you do have a documentary police coming after you. You know that we think document of these are movies I need in Japan. What they are, their feature docks and a lot of them. Gotta fears we think they're moving, ok, Lama raise it. I get a known, I think, they're movies to I was destroying? I didn't I didn't know to present that that the genre of film that that is, it say it sounded its it scripted right, not fiction. Yeah, and you know what you know. What am I often get ask that question and turned the perfect target for this particular question where one of them and
often people say to me: this was your first narrative foam and then I can get even more high and mighty about the family. Documentaries. Our narrative, narrative means were telling stories and document would do that. Oh my god it is sending out a documentary, Stiva narrative of worth So do I to end in a slightly ambiguous way right we view I am more confusing the present. No learning by yes, this is the first group, film. I have made. I worked on commercials and in college. I made films with at dinner, but this was the first call frat pledged script did Movie narrowed, I found there. I directed oh well, that's interesting make a cyclist. Let's go back them because I watched the last night. I had not seen it. I watch dumb the dock with you made with your father. Irish shouting fire. Now I this weird thing of about your fee because my my four
lawyer in show business was at your father's firm. And write. Your planet is now nansen road. Ok, I don't know what year she wasn't a partner anything, but you know she started at garb go out. What was the name of this garbage who were the owner drivers, and then she left what Jody Pella right? That's right, yeah, yeah so but like when she told me about your father about Martin. I was like, oh my god, disguise amazing. Why don't why don't I like, but but she's that kind of lawyer year deadline, entertainment lawyer, you're dead, like was huge. First amendment guy, a wreck, easy mythic sort of lawyers. We argued several times by the Supreme Court and defended Bruce, and yet so I don't know a lot about him. Tat idea of starting to do research on you and then I went the movie any A couple of things that were very interesting to me relative to
your upbringing. Somehow, ok, there was. This is weird question like I'm watching and I'm like you. I like learning about the constitution, and I like warning about the struggles around free beach in how everybody has to be defended. If you want to make it really free in the audience, but then you stem. In relation to the Ellsberg situation, where yeah he was hiding that that those documents at the house or copies of them, and that he could have been arrested and put in jail for whatever one trees enters whatever for years prison he said there did. You it can mean that you that we were you have a family any said will yet, but I don't I don't put those innocent liking of that their two separate things. Then what he said was aching. I realized tat, I could be put in jail and it seem like that that his prince, Balls allowed him to say. I think that the act that was done would form some kind of bond that if you were put in jail, that
that in and of itself would create something lasting. For you, as is child too too Fine, who you were that's how I re no you're absolutely right, and I had forgotten that comment that film was framed some years ago and I think that's what I mean, look, I think in the moment you do things because your site, You know you ve got these. Arguments, it's a league, it's the ghastly going in. It speaks to the crisis of the moment. You know what, if you had a document right now that said, trot he's holding gibes. You know that the vaccine for Korea in his house until we can make up a good Julian dollars in two years or whatever you know, I gotta, wasn't everybody wanting you. Do it right like you just do it and then I think the true answer is when you do those things as he was doing with the Pentagon papers and Ellsberg you just you just. Do them, because that's who you are and because error
you're, maybe in some ways, narcissistic by out in other ways, altruistic end committed to something larger than yourself right but but in retrospect right he was you know in retrospect he was still able to frame it as he was willing to make that sacrifice, because you know how that would be interpreted by by by humanity he or or society or his children- would be. You know large enough, in principle the enough to make up for the fact that he's in jail, whether or not he didn't you know he didn't it but his family first regular reporting is country first to a certain degree right yeah, Thank you. No, I think, that's right. Look if my father had gone to prison for a certain amount of time, for you know four they met the Pentagon papers being published in the New York Times. I would honour that you know if I had lost for years and years I mean, I think he is right, but I think you honoured anyway. He just didn't need that drama is fortunate.
You're, not my grandma year that we have at you. You didn't spend the life you from that age. We were very young with a father in prison with your mother, wondering how you gonna make ends meet. Is there any money left from the law practice and you know maybe what gone to Brown, who the fuck knows what would have happened? Absolutely you know about them didn't, you know another one of my father's clients was Cathy Eugene, who was part of the brain robbery and as part of the weather underground loosely, and you know her son, just somebody in just start became what d a Van Berkeley. You know when you grow up, he lost his mother to present she was recently released. Any lost referred thirty some years. You don't have to factor that by now So certainly in that case what cha somebody became, it became him. Some someone really could be committed to social justice. What his mother did. She regrets. I mean he doesn't sound, defend the fact. That brings robbery that she was involved with. You know killing a black We thousands working class people
and they were involved in the struggle for black freedom In any case, you know you can't see examples where those kinds of sacrifices and create wonderful offspring. I guess when did you start, because it seems to me that you, your father's work and and and struggle and fight for four. I guess it's justice would, but for the most part com the. When did that start? Did you call just we were you aware that that has an impact on your thinking I can say that there is a moment at some point. I thought I wanted to go to law school and you know, kind of deal what he did. And then I realized that in some ways, and he actually told me that that there were very few people who can kingdom end up doing what he did, especially as we are moving into the eight you know with Post Reagan, nineties,
He came up in the sixties, write anything like it. It was a much smaller group of people doing that and that perhaps it could be now the career than it could. It would have been, then why here He thought he was dead. He was dug in. He had a reputation. He was part of a there was a small, crew them and they enter that world. The new be yet you know would have been yeah and you look out you know. Of course there are these criminal defence attorneys. You do God's work, getting Trichina trying to work on sentences, on death row? Were you know I just didn't What the innocents project for networks, like those that mean they argue in God's work, that is. As a human being living your life working. Those case I mean that is those guys are like saints. I mean like nay, nay, nay, they're, not while extremely well paid, given what kind of options they would have about agrees and there they lose all the time you know they lose because this system, so stacked against them, and so I guess you know it.
One point in the mid nineties. Whenever I was kind of thinking about these things in a clear way, I decided that on being lost, retailer was was my way through in the first from my maid was dominant, presents called the farm in gaol. Usa. That was the first. That was your father documentary crack yeah how'd, you start in the film I was an internet near MAX. Did you deal with the monster? for those you don't know me, I'm not wise Harvey Weinstein's company before company, I you know there, The tangentially? I wasn't here? I was an intern. I was like blue eyed. They didn't give me a chance to sit on. I was standing on Xerox machine all day long, so so far from him. I do remember one dating called into his office, the door closing and The only thing that I remember about that being in that office, maybe he met with interns. You know once that was part of the company prologue. I don't know. Why was in there
I remember that that washed over me and the biggest way was it was so quiet. The room must have been sound proof. I mean it was just a quiet in there and that's what I call it was weird. I was uncomfortable my day, was a lawyer and he knew my dad so who now What the dynamic in that room was. If you think about it, all you know good knowing when he was getting away with Rodya was irrelevant. Maybe I was in his his type, a nanny Here's. The thing that I remember was the quiet on, but but I was wondering, whereas drives, and why wasn't a job? It was an internship and then I went to work for another filmmaker documentary film growth is assisting whose name is Jonathan. Stack way ended up. Co directing I was his assistant and I brought an idea and I start working on it and we ended up making the film together, as cod rapporteur is so it was, throw him, but I had my first chance and I worked my way up, and that was about,
in and go a prison right? Yet I was about to go and goal a prisoner in the way the annals of former flayed plantation, then try unplugging farm. Ah, you know after reconstruction and it's really focused on people serving life or death and you didn't focus on questions of innocence, logic in Frankenstein. You know how do you make a life for yourself, you find meaning and hope and get out of it. You know get up in the morning when you're alive somewhere- and you know you're Mayberry ten feet from that from that spot prison cemetery where there is no chance of freedom and and what does that life look like and feel it So who is not a film about judgment? There was a film about a world view sea, like I'm just kind of piecing together as we Ah, because I've I've made fun of the amount. Of documentaries available currently in the sense that, like
It seems that everybody thinks he can make one. The easiest way to sort of get involved is to make a doctor and you can do with your phone. You know yea people, Think that you don't have to really be good at anything, but the true the matters You do honour to the type of jack Henry you? Do your journalist really right? Well back in India in conversation. I dont think I'm a journal, precisely because of that word, we we both had shouted the beginning, which was narrative now, of course, journalists that are wonderful now it storytellers in, and so I can. But my time is a nonfiction storyteller. The reason think of myself as a journalist is because I spent a lot of time with journalists. I spend more time with report, and then they are very much a whole. Then too I'm gonna get it. One from the other side Well, if I don't have four people saying: yes, we can put in the story right human rights, makers, we don't have to do any of you know we.
The point of view on a world and if it feels truthful to us we feel like it. It's expressing something larger, doesnt matter. If nobody else says that about it, you know: do we have to check our facts, but we as secondary filmmakers. We take the more she messy, clay and life and sculpted into something that has a shape a beginning, mental, an end and endure so you're leaving a helluva lot and at other clay- and I think that's a free that people do and the word journalist in their job title have to be And very careful about right because can I can? I get it is really. The difference is it's about point of view. Yes, so like a journalist, if they're doing it correctly should not have a point of view per se. We're right, and maybe that's naive right like we know they do and points of view, but I knew I don't
if you will hear somebody, I'm not comparing myself to him at all, but is trust poverty, a journalist or a nonfiction fiction, you know any. I don't know it's like water, those distinctions what happened? don't tell me, I don't know. I think that there are differences. I think it's important for viewers to be aware of that. I guess it did the distinction that, I guess I'm trying to make sure that we should be made. Is that. A reporter verses, a journalist, is theirs. It disappears the distinction there as well Rapporteur is a kind of journalist right, but you know, just like a nuts and bolts reporter before they get a point of view before they become a journalist of a certain specialty there. Job is who what one, where? Why and an that's what that's, what they give you so inherently it. It means that there isn't, it doesn't have to be a sense of of storytelling in a traditional.
Hence I guess right. Yeah, Montera journalists who wealth, nay here is life in a small town in the old depicted right without getting counter examples. I mean that. Is similar to what we do here. Right, I don't know why I just I don't know why ass thick ass people say that to me that like my responsibilities, a journalist I might not, I don't really shouldn't it that way. Do you not agree that an end you're just because people, glean things from what I talk about. What people doesn't mean that I'm serving as a journalist or a reporter you now? Yes, unites. The weird thing that people backward on me back, How do you like when, like so you do, film working, not sure that you want to do doctor? No, when you working for wines dinner, you knew no. I didn't know I right now, I'm always interest didn't feature found to you. I thought I had twenty great ideas. You know I mean I was. I had all be all right. You're gonna write a script him. Whenever I was right before Watson on yeah, so
What was it was a default to did decide to do documentaries or what compelled you do, the one you started with in, which was obvious. We great what why why why the decision You know, I don't know, there's a decision so much. You know it's like when you look at your life. Are these all decisions, or there may be some people have clauses, are making moments? I feel like I'm, I'm I'm working on a path and I'm an choosing the best terms as I see them, but I I I went the work I got a job you know is an internet Merrimac said I wasn't paid said. I was also given the things and then I and I got a job as an assistant to another filmmaker, and this was the right Jonathan stack and he was writing documentaries. That kind of euro like while this is cool basic yes- and I ended up connecting through a series of strange- internet users within an inmate journalists, name Wilbur we go. Who is an inn,
We wrote a magazine and a newspaper out of Angola prison Louisiana. Now how do you I like what you guys are producing new directs Ami produce. Somebody seems like you have about ten. Parliamentary going on at all times. Well, but not as a director, not a rudder. Right yet by but what would it? What is your production house law? how do you kind of divvy that stuff up? Well, you know as you say, there has been an explosion in the form of documentary round. Like I mean it's just been happening and projects will one to me that I cannot direct because under something else, but I love them, I'm too selfish to just totally of them away. So then I too, the fine other filmmakers, who I love and maybe a little less experience or you know just or out you know and bring them in and how?
then get that projects set up and and going I mean I've been doing that drive my entire career street fight, which was the film about Corey Booker, taking on short Jane, said the first gonna. Let you know that was it. Frank filmmaker, who brought some amazing mature only announcing, oh, my god. How do we help? I want to help you make this sort of an expansion of that wrong, and my husband is a producer and he I'm so we decided. This would have been a terrible idea at the beginning of our marriage. But now, some years later, we decided to put our heads and broaden the mission of what we do by embracing out of other directors work and in the company. I guess so I guess I mean, I think, that very forward thinking and also is like a kind of nice adaptation of the the did. The technology definitely favours young, the medium that loved your orders you have documentary of making, in a sense it
if you got an idea or someone comes in with an idea to set up, and of wrangle, I would imagine to begin. Shooting is not setting up a scripted feature indeed, but also in the culture requires, and I think that its The reason why documentaries are popular is because people crave that that type of of of conversation me I dont like, if you really think about This is a curious crash, connect. Questioner observation, like the popularity If something like the Tiger king makes makes me nauseous and You know I couldn't watch a half hour of it because I felt exploitive right from the beginning and it felt that yet this was not going to be like some sort of education no or or or sort of provocative, selling. A short I dont know, but that was my impulse was at that there's a morbid fascinate selling. A short I dont know, but that was my impulse was at the
There's a morbid fascination that kind of coincide The documentary boom zip possible yeah. Look. I think that you know What you know what he's documentary is is: is Tiger came closer to reality. Television in some ways than it is to one would think of his documentary. Maybe, You know how I got it Well, you know I am aren't we here talking about someone. My netflix projects would be less. I mean I look, I think you know it was a moment in our culture where everybody was staring home here- and there Was the most you know wild escape that captured the imagination of what is at how many, maybe sixty million people there were some numbers. I saw throw throwing around yesterday just an enormous segment. Of our population tuned into it. And provided a detour and, like you said, a look at people who were struggling
and flawed money and in some ways they shed light on our current political system. Here, the way in which a person like that can run for you know that emptiness of choices. I mean I don't you didn't get that Far Buddy Tiger condemns are running, for I think governor was something like this. And then you know, actually get some votes. You know it's incredible so, but not increasing yeah, but not incredible think encroached on something and I'm not sure I would have all documentary. I think, The thing documentary filmmakers wanna be able to do is go on to make another film you guys. If you're you're subjects are very her through the process of making one found, it could be hard. She then get people to trust you moving forward. So that's that's an issue with soccer The choices you ve made. What what makes you make a choice like you know? After doing you know the farm you're. What were some of the choices you made?
how do you evolve? This is his stuff. They like we said earlier. The documentary should be somewhat chow, launching an ambiguous it? The answer you you like, I don't know, is it or is it a desert play into your choices? I mean I, like you- know narrative at the end of the day for me- is key. I'd never wanted. Make a documentary, because I want I want to attack this issue right like down. I don't see as my role I see my role as telling stories of incredible people that you don't get to meet in your life, maybe or that I dont get to meet and showing our shared humanity even through the whole that you don't really right, then you, I think that's it like even you don't think you identify with its inmates were- or maybe you know- and I guess that's where it goes back to tag working, because I dont know that you find the shared humanity there. I think that for me if you look at that story, I've made whether it you know Bob Fischer, the the dress champion. Neither Simone you know them
Greece is or you know them. We're in Angola, like the wheat, we connect with each other and all these over ways. What was the one a gene, Doc and the one the gene dark was? You know this was again. This was a lesbian woman on death row in Oklahoma, who he's going to be put to death for shooting her lover and the question: was you don't Oklahoma, clearly, a jury? find their way into any shared humanity. What this woman I'm? Could I the people who get sentenced to death in a hundred. Such a small percentage of model was right. Of course, some huge terror act of terrorism. Ok, we see it, but just a murder You know there's a lot of murders under a lot of people who don T have the death penalty Why do some? Well, you have to do but the humanizing one right and insight in that was a black lesbian who you know, basic. You show your lover in a fight like them. Furthermore, only go the most based
you shouldn't your lover in a fight like that's kind of what happens. Alas, what model is unfortunately so so it was it was examined. It was looking for that shared humanity. There and I also working with she'll eleven tyrannical Rio, and we know that she'd. That was something she wanted to do. You want to find a woman on death row. She'll want Evans who ran documentaries, there is a real hero of mine. She's, a hero of documentaries yeah, yeah and she was a mentor of mine. I mean she really taught me so much like what pray. There are few things she said to me. I want a gene. Film was the first time I may with her, and I was crossing out about a rough cut that I'd centre and I was about to say hours long and I said- but it's just too long. It's too long How long do you wanted to be sure she said? Well, it should, as long as it is good. And you know what that's true
Shouldn't be longer than it is good and I, like it No, it sounds very simple, but in fact you need to rigorously evaluate your work. You should again long because you think you're, so for an interesting you want to look at your naval. You to make sure that it's it's the right links were as being good and good for your audience and then I don't think you know she Tommy was just to be fearless. You know put the end of them will be at the beginning. You know see what happens. You know all those things that you learn as you grow as a filmmaker that at the beginning, your like watch. I did all those things. I learn those lessons with her and she only the freedom. You know men executives will just give you note at three twenty these trim? You know Balboa. She taught me. The picture ideas, try it throwing that there were trained losing that person, and you know what will happen here. She really unity within this house with me she was you know. I just gave me a lot of freedom and a lot of confidence.
And she Amy I it seems to me that if anyone deserve credit for the elevation of documentaries, it too to the to the dog- be that they are now to take to the expanse that they are now it's, I totally agree with you anymore. Maybe she's that as it may sometimes I precept of small children. The high priest thither of documentary, because, like you, Rio, like she had her own, like that she ran that thing like almost outside of HBO, proper, like this was heard thing her empire and in a way- and she gave produced all these different document areas. She figured out two things: how to get ratings her documentaries and how to get awards for them and those two things counter alive and you know- and you couldn't you needed both. You know where she now,
she left HBO and she is running. Were stranded, documentaries, MTV, I'm always reviewer MTV. Do you guys talk yeah yeah. It was her birthday. I we spoke recently. Yes, yes, we're on his ear she's my real mentor. Fine. Now let me you're not too were not distract from our conversation. I'm curious to the conversations yet you're. Having now with your father, whose, by eighty five I've? U around, like you. Obviously you talked at the beginning and end that in you know the thoughts about you know. What is Orton now in terms of. Conversations is: how do we protect democracy now? What conversations are you are? You is what where's he out with this shit right now, as a really good question. One of the things he talking about which is you no kind of sad,
yeah he's free speech, spans stance which, Is that all the bad shit you know pretty replete? You worked on protecting the Nazis right tomorrow, trade in Scope, Illinois. Obviously all UK right MA am and now we see speech and the internet, and you know the whole idea run fake news and the kind of trawling and he's clean. He questions is free speech stance in the era of on line propaganda. Because I mean what was the story this morning about you know propaganda, outward state propaganda coming in towards fomenting protestors who or what hang around like idiots without masks and in a goddamn nurses come out of their job to stand up for themselves and say stop it can get on making my job? How to hurt you idiots all of that conflict is being fomented by bad actors.
You know when you have the internet in your twitter, and you have is how do you protect truth what I've done? Nothing I what said about Twitter, it's like maybe was better when everyone didn't have a voice. The project trace. How do you do it right and you know I am free speech- does not do that right we speeches the good and the bad comes in, for many Bruce a lamp, an orderly margin. The Nazi party, but in the age of the internet, is a whole different that that's right now, because your protected you, you you they ve until the truth from any sort of precedent. Or barometer of what it is, so now that you have people who can live in information bubbles almost on in their planet vacant. Should anyone one else with truth with you know: what's your source, who knows, if that's true and that's the end of it exactly
Thank you, I think about what has been taught in schools like we need to teach, and I know I see this with my children a little bit about you know sourcing, like if you read some, I remember during their twenty sixteen election. My daughter came to me and she was looking at Instagram and she said. Oh, do you know that Hillary Clinton is dying from a brain, tumor so the brain tumor and I was like so where did you- and I just saw how, like you know, Mr Graham, which you know I would just get over it, and I could have told from their source that it was. You know right wing, source or whatever was, but it was I think my daughter's instrument free how'd, it yeah yeah. How do we wouldn't do that? and I don't get my faith in the answers but he's having those questions, but you know about this but the problem with litigation two on this level is that you know this is an administration that debt is completely engage in constant litigation, You know over anything for the specific reason to extend a time frame to yield to to kind of bankrupt.
His is enemies I mean that's, that's his way of doing things in that, then I don't know how your father approaches the use of litigation in that way to exhaust funds and resources of the victims but I mean that's another issue between the truth being in you know Views in under attack is that you have, over litigation This is a weapon which is our been there, but you know now is. He not be happening on every level, are you? Are you ready gauging with him as a subject. Do you think should do that I think you should have not broadcast, but I, but I don't? the answer. I mean inside No, I'm not engaging with him as a subject of the moment, but I I I red and engaging with him as an intellectual you know someone I learn frame and intellectual mentor and It's interesting- and you know that
sometimes these private companies do not have seen like with Facebook, seen the social pressure that has forced them to you, some self policing but it's negligible right, given how much gets out there, but they don't talk about the truth. That's the weird thing is you you ve got, audience of of of shallow people who, like I a personal trainer person, a woman whose relatively intelligent, who last a couple weeks ago, said did you hear I read that bill gates might have caused the corona virus in right through it, what are you talking about right now I have the same. I've had the same experience with somebody. I was just like we really thank you. Oh you probably like war. But that's what you're fucking with sea if you like, uncover the truth, you're dealing with people's yo need to believe right. So, if something seems good has closure or honest honours their feelings about whatever they'll fucking,
put it in there and its actually much more comfortable to think oh bill gates are the growing a virus or China into this as an attack than just think. Oh God, the world works really study ways sure how women and pull out of it, you know it will be easier. Narrative should, of course, and eight words. Now it's it's clearly in environmental catastrophe and it's it's a collapse. There is now a million different things. Well, we don't need to go crazy by I'm very I'm disheartened buddy, encouraged by the fact that that when your father, having conversations in that case, when I was watching your doc shouting fire that that it dawned on me like. How does this apply to now? Where the freedom of speech is completely? Not only you know, in inaction, but but come malignant
yeah? No, I think it right ended and attack was what ten years got me. That was the beginning of Wikileaks. Like a remember, those will just the beginning about that. The questions bond hold different universe and you're right and should be avoided this is what we were each should be updated. You know I think about some a rifle there is not in their king said, the arc of history is long, but events towards justice. Really, where is it? You know, all these things that we believe from the sixty seven. You know like all of these things are bending the Purvis been flattened We believe that but now I think that what I know- this morning, even in moments where you see people Obviously the protests around these these right wing protests are. Are you misled people by by political forces yeah you and they ran straight. I right wing right. There are presented as theatrical events, but they don't know that they do
in that year, somebody's with it? Yet they just watch your face proposed like all this guy jet is going to start a thing. We gotta go to the thing: so you don't realize it. It's a bunch of conservative, think tank money or whatever it is, but am. But what I think what's missing is this the innocent fear of what's happening now too, with it which quarantine and need not look in a governmental or or abuse, Power Way on the government by this lack of of tangible connection between individual between people. That young people are so isolated in in everything there taking in and how their taking it in their almost more lonely with the information they have them. Before that the conversation in among people in face to face in real time a holding feeling common. What were you talking about the common humanity or or the share humanity is, is is collapsing, so you
When you have like legislators who were able to say there are more important things than living to you as a defeat to open up a state's economy, yeah you realize like will that sort of Craven, but it's really honest about that is this country is, based on capitalism and in many of these people, one where the other, though they ve been hiding. It have ever saw to maintain this. Rival of capitalism? No matter what over anything, that's understandable, but the that he believes of people be like that, guy's right means it is incredible, governor of of of connection between humans right now it sure feels that way, and it isn't it. I think it has how much carried out in a way. I now know nobody I'll say I mean just a circle back once again and I think you have so much to do with whose I can only think about Georgia Right, Stacy Abrams, might have been met. The governor of Georgia light, but because I
Brian Camp right now saying you know you can safely open a tattoo foller. Are you gonna talk, frizzle, ok, so that its fruitless, a failure of the state to protect People doing is downturn right like you, don't I don't expect the tattoo artist. DR and die? I expected to be able to rely on the boat. The state that he's been paying taxes do always goddamn life to help them through right better. Expect and to keep them safe. But you know- and of course you can socially just and whether TAT the parlour in an endless gonna, be terrible effects. When I go back to the mark the sea and I go back to the fact that, right now it says something like sixty. Seven percent of the people want so All this damn thing to last longer to so they can be safe and they don't have to have their own land there. Grandpa Dounia. You know were there friend who has not asthma and end, but our her elections have been gerrymandered and surprise to the thought I wrote a point
We don't have that. We have learned Campos. We have making these crazy think that does not reflect its people, because you only need certain people to win. You know you could, because you only in certain voters literate, Well, it's a hell of a gamble there are making in. This is the fact that the fact that thing about having such craven leadership. Without any national agenda around you kind of helping us then what's happening and how to take care of ourselves? As that, You know now we got to sit here and watch these states who are willing to roll the dice with the lives of their people? How that pans out? That's that's! It did theirs. Ok, here the canaries, in the coal mine of capitalism, economies gonna survival, see how this goes. You know it's a tough lesson to have to sit and watch that that we would only eight people, like my state, happens, to be a good state and are doing everything they can and we're decent leader, but now we're like what what's gonna happen with this,
yeah. What about those poor people who are being used as as as sort of the view that the stakes of this thing you know this gamble and its funding? that's right, wise, the conversation not about how do we protect our elderly, a nursing home? Why are we not happened? create jobs to do so. You know how do we create saved up? What's the Manhattan project? Do you know getting safe, Can you know where it were that that's the creative conversation right now that we are looking back in president had hired a bunch of more on, so we didn't feel our guns, and now nobody knows how to do anything in anybody. Who shows up. Who knows how to do something is threatened and it's it's. Ok, that's real, William I got documentary later
did you ever do where America, my producer Brendan, seems to think you were around when we were around we ever did you ever do interviews on AIR America back in the day, and now I think we hit you guys up a lot for different things. I can't remember what it was: maybe the Abu Ghraib thing, but that was but that was really we were already Canna washed up. Maybe I was maybe we're still running by that might have been it. So now the two things the meanest among document right, I thought, was amazing, as I didn't know, a lot about her eye honest. We knew nothing about her, and cause of that you and I have this new. It's your beautiful creative force that and appreciate in my life, but what what compelled you to do? That y know the best best reaction that I hear, because I think now you know
People knew now. They listened a little demeanor friends can I mean our they put on Nina, but now you get this whole, like three d experience like knowing her and knowing her values and knowing her sacrifices and you bring it also jail on your address. Like such an intense react, in our experience of listening to her that's like was my hopes when I bought with Japan. Just the other day who is doing in others who what is behind this voice and but that No, it came to me one of the weird what you know. Sometimes things you. I got a call from somebody who said you know we have the rights, tenderness and I'm gonna. Do you wanna? Are you interested in directing this, and I said I love music. I don't know much about her life. Let me do little reading. Let me see if I felt that story there, because at the end of the day, what we said its narrow and meaning, can be a great aren't as banana boring life. Not often but roundheads, and I beg you know. Lo and behold, there was not the problem.
Here you know she had her, and you know we were making a film about this amount at the moment of the birth of the black lives matter. Protest like it was a really rich time to be digging into her personal history and what has been the response from whatsoever if you could, if I can generalise and non exclusionary way black community around that whether the feedback Emily The fear has been really really positive. You know, I think we and we I had black producing you know me: I ain't. We added a diverse team working on the film and leave and Minos daughter, and we saw was very involved in the film, so we had a lot of phone a few days You know the at the same moment that knife and was being made there was this always Havana, film being made and which has always played Nina you, have made a lot of people, understandably angry, because the darkness of NATO scan hurt her. You know the blackness of her skin was very a colonel in her commercial aspect.
Chickens and her feelings about herself and, and so he felt very wrong to people in the family, Gaza, where you know a very light skinned classically. Beautiful in the white sands. German, I'm be playing mean us alone, I think that times have changed. Even since I made that talk, which was not that long ago, you know Someone asked me now to direct the phone line. I was, I might think differently about it. I might say then I should have a black filmmaking partner, making the phone with me. I mean I did have a black producer, but even director but at the end of the day I think they, my team, did. You know check me in check. I whiteness whenever it needed to be, and I haven't had that criticism from the far more people are gonna come. Wasn't your boncassen or mitigate now, Gimme, the criticism- and I now I'll listen by, but at the moment
time that it came out and on the end, you know, ended and I'm still getting feedback from from people very positively about the phone. So the loss. Girls. Now this in your after a lifetime. It seems that you're not that but I mean of doing a life I'm a viewing documentaries. Why you know I mean not that it's not an worthy but why this story? How did it? How do you make? chief cause. It shop beautifully the stories beautiful, but why story and how did it evolve because it seems like it would have been a good documentary subject, You know, I, I think, there's a lot of answers to that. I have always been interested in narrative from making. As I told you when I studied film, I was doing that you are my went down a path of making document Rees. Incredibly, happily idle, lovemaking documentaries, on making more documentaries, bite
you know, is harder for the lady filmmakers to get the script and dumb budgets right. I mean, of course, that changed over time. You said your Ramadan Shelton, I don't her evolution, but am I gonna kept cattle getting offered a lot more documentaries. I had some script and project I was working on an why? Then it was a different. Different battle and people talk about how great is it a documentary as somebody female directors and like well, it's a you know. Dublin Short, because its lower paid right and the budgets are falling. So yet Eliza went what does it actually telling us so, but this film, you know that Moscow came to me. As I said, I'd been interested in a bunch of now to projects this group thumb came to me. There had been documentaries on this marks. I didn't feel that I run needed to make a documentary. What I felt was that the story of Mary Gilbert, you know this again, you know Sally FEAR, Flash Karen sell goods lash errand, rock and H Heroin was
story, I love you know. I love asking strong women, you know she came from a world that would never have guessed. She would be able to raised her voice and, having listened to in the way that she did you know, and the story of her raising her children. Naturally, the battery above mental illness and her family, the sacrifices she had to make us a single mother. You know those the things that you could dramatized through the scripted form with reactors we're gonna go about getting your vinegar, they were way in the past. Could you have talking talk about it sure by would you see you? Don't it differently when the couple great actors, yeah so For me, that was army, that that was why I got behind this. It was there, you know, the rock that we were able to get to the top of the home, get me I'm traders, the actors, like were amazing, NGO Amy Ryan Hand, the older,
daughter, the Middle Diana said make your town again. There is a huge challenge: what the fuck man I mean yeah like you know, I do not. Talking in a white choked up like what's happening, forget it now shooting I mean it was all about me. I just let it go. My will Europe, you might, seen her leave? No trace intention is to ravage nominally counted. Accurate work can be seeing a lot of her, but I rejoined worth interesting the way you frame the this sort of like female heroin. You in comparison do I M Brok of Nature or Sally field in what is it normal re, but, like it's interesting cause. The scale of this is so different not so much within silkworm but like because you really like. I found myself through a good third, the movie you're not really liking, Amy Adams, character and questioning. You know her. Her her attitude around the Rio
because you know initially, if you like, is she in denial? I mean. Does she not taking you know it's a very complicated character that that somehow or another you know you really are kind of wondering about internal until it breaks you know until she up, you know somehow the truth is revealed of her struggle that she's not just doing this out of shame right, or oars or anger at herself, but but you know she was you know the best mother she could be now. I think that part of the evolution of female roles allowing women she female characters to movies through. I immediately likeable, you know for sure, yeah and I think that you are really chafed at some of the new needs you might get when you're making your film making her like a bore. You know it was just not. You know how you supposed to be fucking likeable.
You raising three kids no money for a kid. No mental health care Why polar daughter you, somebody who is doing calls gonna work go, you know, did during sex work while putting us after ecology then goes missing and nobly gives a shit like why was reliable. You now come on guys numbers are announcing into you Brad, you say: that's that's what I'm well, that's what I was working on you Know- and it comes back to the shared humanity. Thank them by the end. Your like, I hope, your life. I get her. You know I gotta have court were on and that's that That was why I loved you know you're right. It's I don't know of normal re or apparent well good had those liability issues. It was a different moment. You know here, for you, Well, I mean it wasn t so much like ability Amy. I certainly like a flawed character and Anna Character that I I have to kind of we reckon with, and I think she's a grey actors, but I think exactly the feelings.
Was having you reflect. Own judgment, so why it is almost does in a sense. You know what, I commend you. Do like found myself, though the weird thing was to guys with you as a man. You know when she were with the other young drug addled prostitute. I was lying hate you I can have done drugs can't hear I literally I did with the other young drug addled prostitute. I was lying hat I can't I literally said you like. I can't take characters that that that Aggressively are in denial turns out that she probably wasn't drug user rights look right so like there was that moment where I prejudge base on you know the characterisation of these type of women. And and also being someone in recovery who was mad at her in that moment, for not,
accepting that, if possible, that do that to her daughter at a drug problem with it really was it, and it wasn't even a hinge today to the story, but it was like when these things run like what a stubborn bigshot woman it you know and I think you will agree. She was a stubborn something, but I think that also like it just goes to the relevance of what I think the fact that people work and to make it relevant assurance channels disappearance whether or not she was on drugs right woman. Right gone. She running down this valuable. The nightingale me right. About whether or not she use coke in calls. I it's your written, so I think that that and once you understand that your in opposition you're, like, of course he's. Gonna make you matter just you know, so I think that it's like it's it's it's just the fact that its brow but up to the human eye, Shannon to make her? That's. I think that's right. I think, but I also think that speaks what we were talking about earlier, is that you know all of this kind of like rabid
politicizing and in this sort of like the kind of malignant fake news trip it the human eyes you have become In a sense, I'm not saying it's it's the same, but this like for me to kind of by into that, Liking or to diminish the fact that that we lost a human being here is something that is incredibly rich. Oh to the way their discussing this virus in the way that we have a President news, unwilling to even addressed a number of dead, with any certainty that their Yeah, I'm human zation. Yet, let alone out immigrants are treated if it's it's something that is, that were being trained to do, which is yoke, speaks to what you are thinking about the future and in how you go a ism sinks in is through, while yeah If I give you heard they say, fifty people were dead in this nursing home you're. My house in
but how Brooklyn? And what, if you can't you said, fifty people there dead at a you know. It's cool like or Lee Eyes one. What would that bus but like it, it's just write like it's like somehow, and the fact that there is really an if young people were bearing the brunt of this I'm so you know, the night wishing that, by analysing the discourse might be very different from from the top right but I also think that, because it's a health issue that everybody's, like you know in denial, like you know the dinner. Of one's mortality. Is like your front in centre in everybody's, you kind of unconscious thing again. Nobody wants to see about that in the idea that you can be out in the world, and get something: that's gonna, kill you they just do. People do not want to think about it right right hands, not wearing a mask embrace, you're childish, but am. But back to the movie, I thought it was
if we acted beautifully shot, and you know it in, and it was not you now that you're telling me yeah how you were thinking about it in terms of of representation of women and victims? An and you know are pre are prejudgment of people. It's very is it for its provocative. It's great good, John. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you you're. So now. What are you spending your days? Doing you guys working you and your husband? What's up we're working, I mean the beautiful thing is that we You know you can edit, as you know from you, know a closet by the end, so we were create a little bit ahead of the curve and were able to set up all these remote added stations, and I have a series- that's finished and each be out are you friendly with TAT, Oswald, yeah yeah harmonise, go way back. We are doing a serious for HBO, based on all began in the dark, his at his former wife since deceased book. So
again, really busy finishing nine zero who break, and it's been great, to be able to work through this girl. Let me ask you another weird question: is I've I've been furtive of mild rifts, with you. Remember that when he said, did using the word storytelling and when and went story tellers and storytelling she seemed to come on the scene. Yo like all at once. Like the word authenticity, you know I bear these, they sort of buzz words like you, I can see how it sort of replace narrative, but like AIDS, the relative warmly I to kind of start to use, work. Is actors use it all the time not to its like Y, see myself as a storyteller. My did you always know you like one did that yapping worded storytelling come from essential good point. And my brain is flash, if your obsessed with it, my brains rushing Q some emails. I got at some point or another from the Sundance Institute talking about telling labs.
I wonder if there is a genesis in the Euro area, I don't know I'm just making up unless the first thing I thought out, I don't, but this right there might be a, but also those that the moth and story. Nine shows you like them, something here that this like it was a mode of expression in a one wide awake, replacing stand up almost and in some respects that that the story telling performance series start of that kind of integrated as well. Right now. I think that's interesting. When do you think it started like five ten years ago, yet fairly recent, because I'm annoyed by them not annoyed by you, but, like you know it, it's like I'm annoyed by in the same way that I am annoyed by you know authenticity and artisanal yeah peoples. In saying on the bubble? Oh yeah, oh yeah, sure that's a night. Another means doubling down right, we're going down big. That was big. The trump really did,
he had a journalist, really kind of pushed through doubling down with with this reality, It's true I dont know I won't. I am not so make I'm not a story tat. No, I won't telling this area can tell stories like to. Emphasis was curious if you realize that it was a new or word for you by the camp are exactly there was great talking. Do. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for your server As a storyteller everybody's healthy, there thank the interviewer. Oh, that's, I gotta. We were gonna start right now and I am glad that yeah everybody's healthy there thank you and that was less garbage. The thumb again is lost girls, which streaming on networks as she's. Also the director of many documentaries, including what happened Mr Mon in the fourth estate, and also don't forget, with all the odds
certainty in the world. Now is the time to protect your home would simply say there is no technician: four cells person that needs to come to your home, order online and set up yourself. To pay any outrageous monthly fees or sign it to your contract. Your home is protected. Twenty four seven with emergency dispatch offer just fifty cents a day had to simply say back on Slash deputy. I can get a free, hd camera that simply safe dot com, so I don T have to make sure they know who sent you However, you reach out frightening it clear to the desperate, angry, vulnerable people that things are not good and there still sickness out there, like all over the place. Ok can't get clouded by operation or desire for things to be. Ok, ok, all right all right
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Transcript generated on 2020-05-07.