Barry Jenkins is grateful that he’s been able to harness the tools of filmmaking in order to tell the stories of his ancestors. Barry and Marc get into all the details of making the ten-part series The Underground Railroad and how Barry differentiates between the projects he’s made with his head and the ones he’s made with his gut. The also talk about Moonlight, bringing James Baldwin’s words to the screen, and why it was important to have an on-set counselor for this recent undertaking.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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all right. Let's do this: how are you what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies, what the planet's what's happening? How are we
How are we doing how
who are you they? He she it thou
How is thou what's happening?
today, on the show
to bury Jenkins.
The director of Moonlight he directed if be Austria could talk.
He directed medicine for melancholy and is
It is project. Is the limited series for Amazon Prime VII of the underground rail road based on the purity?
prize winning novel by
Colson Whitehead, heavy stuff man?
and it just it's one of these pieces
of art. A true.
a monumental piece of cinematic art can ever
shows that could read as one long film and blew my fucking mind.
and I know that,
Hosty aren't gonna watch it because it is difficult. It is as horrific as it is beauty
and those are the two sort of currency run through it,
There's one level of just pure horror,
but you know in your heart that its real that that the horror, although not depicting
a particular historic truth.
in terms of an event these are historic
proves in terms of actions
and alongside of that ongoing horror, is the ongoing beauty
community struggle, tenderness love in in
in the shadow of ongoing hurry, I'm that horror goes on today,
it was one of these recent cathartic experiences that I had starting
PIG Nicholas Cage, moving on through all the stolen, hard YO films and then really sportive, leaning
and to bury Jenkins work. Yogi swim
but this thing underground rail road, spectacular and I was
honoured to talk to the guy? And I you know, I hope I did a justice cause. I want
to engage, had questions. I was excited,
that being said
I was. I just got back. I was in SALT Lake City for
three days I got in there Thursday. I spent most
Thursday landed in Thursday morning, I spent most of Thursday walking from the gate to the parking lot that fucking airport is
I got a strange joke, not
airport, just kind of like
How long is this hallway weird?
do we get out this isn't even that big city, but
As I have said before, and as I told the people and SALT lake I I will,
Book SALT Lake are gonna wise, guys, great club, good guy runs a place, keeps them
when the India Club owners.
these guys who run their own shops? You know
it could go either way. Historically,
they can either be horrendous, douche bags or monsters. Are they
could be great guys who run a good shot he's one of those guys
an odd. We as you get more successful. They all become better people, but.
I get. I dont get nervous, but I book SALT Lake it thinking
That is not a market for me that lie
you know that I'm not going to do a theater and salt Lake Song and work this shit out I'll do fall
I've- shows like a real road act and
and leaning figure some were shut up, but I
celtic into SALT Lake, and I
fucking love salt Lake, it's a weird ass place and its
you know, I don't. I know it's the Mormon frequency I know.
But Cynthia the end
Density of the wild West American Jesus called that was a sort of
built their world out there in the eighteen hundreds in there's some sort of no one. I me either
They have to learn
Mormons and where they come from and who they are you're still like. I don't know man, it's still weird, but every time I go there, it doesn't feel like an evil, weird
It seems like the weirdness overwhelms,
There is not an evil thing, it's just a weird thing: it is a a theocracy,
Eric City it. It is built out of the loins I guess, of the elders of Zion, but
but there I had always nice people, you never feel proselytizing. I don't feel any hate when I'm there
Have a nice time there and there always very nice people? I don't you know, and I I wish
you could say something different, but I can't it's a bizarre place.
and even before covered it's not. You know. There was a lot of people around it.
Always seems a little empty. No one's ever says that the SALT Lake City
The bustling metropolis, but but I'll tell you
and great audiences, great audiences,
but mainly I didn't get to go, see space Jesus, this time, which upset me. I always go visit Thea the Temple square.
There I feel, like I have to it's, not even a tourism I find some p
among the Mormons. If your field
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as deputy f
yes right and get to go to a Temple square and air and sea space, Jesus, the giant S, statue of Jesus in front and like the space landscape, which I enjoy doing like walking on ten square like seeing the tabernacle
and the original church there they ve built up.
scaffolding around the temple in temples,
in solid city, but I believe it's a launching pad. I think that yeah
I dont know how one gets into the ship
which ones are going up if the
it's only the near the underwear crew I dont know, but it looks like
the launching pad
and for that would be interesting one negative.
If the Mormons wants their temple and space and everybody in the world was like they're, the ones,
there are the ones that are
the move there
making the move.
To the New Zion a more,
planet folks a Mormon Planet there get now
Christ. Jesus gonna be installed on the top of the Temple and it's gonna shoot off like a ship. If they can get through the snow.
Bouquets from half of
My state burning does come on you guys. You know.
if you believe in God believe anything,
and I don't mean that is insulting, I'm just meaning that if you believe in God and Eve open that door, you better be pretty
fuckin vigilant about
What goes in and out seriously
you gotta be extra vigilant if you already believe the big bullshit you gotta watch,
out cause a lot of little bullshit going to sneak in their next thing. You know your soul was going
be filled with all kinds of bullshit beliefs.
I can in a what's real, so I'm saying like keep.
your God, just watch a door. Why
stop fucking door.
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Jenkins is a true artist,
in an inspired artist?
and I really needed to set this up.
I believe, as I am
I shall not. You haven't, watch underground rail road, or maybe you haven't made it through the first two episodes you might not make do at all, but I do want to make it clear here. We talk
about underground rail a lot and
There is no regard for spoilers in this conversation,
and, to be honest with you
Doesn't matter. Did that
the series is more of a kind of poem
a visual palm.
elevating and horrific, and the journey of the narrative is
it's important but you're, not watching to see what happens? You're watching
to sort of betake
in somewhere and and B C.
informed, educated, elevated and horrified. At the
institutional racism being a mere
or can slavery, so
I wouldn't get to hung up on it. This isn't it
Orton piece of art and in
talking to the artist, so
I want to be able to dive into his intentions and and talk
but his vision,
and- and I saw the whole show so
I'm going to engage with this,
and I believe, if you listen to this conversation, it will enrich your experience when you do see it. If you choose to work
and it's just I just wanna- make clear its not a matter of it being spoiled it's about having a deeper
understanding of why he d
what he did and executed it. The way he did-
and it's not going to ruin for you, but I do
We suggest you watch it.
Underground rail road is now streaming on Amazon. Prime Video- and this is me talking to the director and writer of this- can episode piece of art
very Jenkins. Eureka placed prevail period, so fucking the answer I just eight leftovers from their it's one of the places I gotta know always how to sort of appreciate things in life and then in. I had a fourth myself today to realize. I counsel and the best Fuckin mills, Iraq, it's a nice when that happens, made an innocent isomer happens. Ask us: what are you able to do it on general? Are you
like work minded and I'm just like work minded, but sometimes it hits me a member once and I sat in the Bay area once this fancy restaurant just for lunch, at which one of us was that one of the Pisa joints not Pisa, was like the sister restaurant, the boot shoe. Ok, the Buddhist she we had a salad
Fuckin sow it where it was the best. If you remember it, I remember was so damn good food in a snug up on me here who nicer than hands
like? I, don't know like the whole story, but you'd? Where do you grow up
up in Miami Florida raised.
To do afford? Do you,
I do and from there and I'm in a certain way, am very proud to be from the young I wouldn't be talking. You arrive, wasn't for flora, State University. I went to film school and other programmes
the state put into place. You guys like me, who are poor, could actually go to college year and yet how damn
while rumours its thinking it for weirdos my mother's down there and I have grown to appreciate it because of the high. I guess the diversities, a nice word for whatever the house happening there, but there is like so many people, so many freaks
so much tension, so
tension and in their certain areas of Florida, the Conor like the frontier will just go to get space and do whatever the fuck. They want right and more power to remedy. I too have a place where I can do that, but this things like come on
increased especially with the senior population- is downer crazy. He I can- and I can't look at that- guy anymore- that to scientists and look here
but dad that aside so, but you find
therefore it has defined outside
allergies. Your childhood is defined your vision, somehow
my vision, I will say a thing. I find the way I see light
There was the cinematograph who passed away. Was film square me being a film noted the reins gunning caught Conrad Hall?
great cinematography, shot, lotta films, everybody seen everything that you want, the Oscar
american beauty cinema targeting and were reading this article eleven America Cinema target for reasons why guy? But he was from Fiji and he always said the way he saw light was driven by how he saw light as a child. What was very bright this right so,
but really bursting sort of sunlight and grown up a Florida, especially Miami is this
same thing? It s kind of like the most southernmost point. You can be in the? U S, yeah, it's a very particular way of seeing lie, and I do think that affects the way I let my films. Why mean I I find
like in watching all the films. I gotta be honest with you man. I mean
because I had a like some sort of event happened
the last couple weeks. I watch all of the underground rail road from beginning. Thank you, I'm
now, just a white dude, a middle age? Why did you are trying to understand and do the right thing
but I dont know that you are from the city of within it. A ten minutes of that
which it seemed like it's all one big movie in a way, is it not things a tv show, but I do it, but I do I don't correctly born they call it a film. I think I see it as a compliment in a certain way. Well, I ain't. You seem like AIDS, it is in the process of it all of it. I mean it's, I obviously they they operate each
so it separately, but did it all, is
moving towards something it is at all as it is right and it does not feel like
the tv series likely your give your going. I wonder, what's going to happen next and get out of here, you agree I so, but
Nothing is somehow led the way that you film things in your sense of of composition, color tension
in all of it, I don't know that I had ever been able to
experience a a painful human empathy.
for the struggle of slavery.
I understand it, I feel bad, but who created something tangible and me from where I was like. Oh my god,
you all the way through the
your current of how your depicting the violence
the brutality and generosity
that the abuse on every level really sort of somehow or another made it real fresh. You
and an horrendous
I unrealistic a car a it, but I do want to say it is a woman. I have heard some people can't get through the first hour of the show.
With that's interesting to me, because I think back o my assistant ago. Well, I wonder what it must have been like for them to get through the first hour of their lives. He asked this was that this was the
the beginning middle and end of their lives will lift underneath the steering the Iberian so
you can watch more than an hour. The show for some respect of my ancestors names as the kid say here, but I think we were talking about was carried the point for the group of us who made the show yet was it wasn't
presenting the spectacle of the condition of american slavery was something
has been done very well right and, and for very pointed reasons and other works on the subject in the past.
we wanted to preserve an experience that,
in some way does nothing can approximate what it must have been like to have them. I asked is right, but still to bear witness the and what it must have been like. Two of them are acts ancestors and to do so,
in a way that you could understand
struggling endure the things they withstood and I like to say the things they did. We acted things they did
the creations they made and the families they protect. It fosters that- I guess it here in this conversation with you brought here,
with you what that was the balance right. So because I mean I knew I didn't read the book and so you it appeared to me fairly quickly too.
this sort of unfolded in allegory of some kind, and- and I can I can understand that all the way through that there were, there were launching points from historical fact too, and those were were fiction eyes to affect some of them and and then the sea, the idea of the railroad being a real railroad and sort of like this morning. I'm hiking- and I realize I get- is sorted. A a purgatory end end a you only get out in your in hell again by this
and in his interesting that you mentioned you do the fact out and this I d, a fact and fiction is something that that I've been talking here lot. So she with the author Colson why that was really rose.
Our Caprio Harvard educated people. Surprise when are you know, he's a very small individual, but it talks about the
between fact fiction. In truth and some of these facts that we ve been given me out, we ve been given by the people in power.
you know. I think it was an article that came out about two months ago about this textbook that
still being used- and I want to say, Louisiana, Mississippi somewhere region where the textbooks
Ellen KIDS high school students
at these american slave trade was a system of conscripted labour in a real
that, though it was being framed in this way- and I thought
about that and I realize oh if I had only read the novels the fiction of Tony Moors and has a high school student, I would
close to the truth by experience than reading this fact based textbook. I think this idea fact and fiction- that's one thing, but I think we should really be talking about truth to a certain degree, and I think that
we're. Colson does by, as you said, taking these events that the did happen, but sort of hat having them happen out of sequencing tied to this huge allegory of this train running underground he's allowing us to get at a certain level of truth that when people,
us- will otherwise so
When you approach that systematically, I mean you had to make
decisions for the entire ten episode is never gonna, carry all the way through again you're, so aware, some decisions, but man, the beauty and you know I'm gonna double back myself. The effort which is a film I think the process.
Making it maybe I did feel like a film to a certain degree, because
in the process of making it so many of these choices that gonna happen to it
ethically were. I would be
working on set what the actors in the crew, certain things will happen here, areas, although not in the book and is not script, but as something that I feel like. We have to do like why? Oh my god, so many things like him prior, it was happening in improvisation or just kind of kept going in a moment, some of it happening in improvisation, some of it the thought just popped up, and some of it was just like gum being a termite and seizing the moment. You know
one of those things was one of the biggest ones. Have you seen the whole show the adequacy
it's that she carry area from beginning to end, isn't really in the book. Not that pointedly that its okra ass, she has the power
but she doesn't plant the seeds at the very end,
storing. There was an invention, because the Prob master on the show came to me
office and showed me a dry pot of oak proceeds yeah and he said buried. You know this is its okra, but it looks dead. He go here
opens the pot and heavy seas drop on my desk air me picks up and he goes no matter how dry it gets. If you plant this, it will grow any just walked out, and
you up eating okra. I know it's the sad as vegetable the sea that comes from the continent of Africa happy enslave brought with them. It was this form sustenance, and so I have this thing's legacy attica. Oh shit. I got a right that in la so many things like that. That happened and with such a grounding point such grounding point. That was a thing with doing with magical realism, but also dealing with a subject that is rooted and some truthful depiction of history. I had to be
very careful about this
Andrew nobody's going to levitate and the show going there are gonna, be trains running underground, but they're gonna be real fuckin train right, there's, not a single cd trying in the whole show its real trains. We built tunnels above
of ground above train tracks and drove actual trains through them. In
Where are these very grounded elements that I can t
into a sort of magic, not the kind of magic was Hocus Pocus and the kind of magic that and our ass, your fuckin sap, but become imagine that someone is putting faith in an object but has meaning to them, and then it fortifying them through this journey in us would be overseas. Were my date buddy, it's sort of reads like each other through that theme or or having that that that power,
opera that piece of magic
you're, a lobby sings tended to sort of manifest, as as almost folklore has almost ice like story. Isn't that could be told that are ambiguous right, isn't those things where it when I first picked up the book, I wanted to understand you know,
How and why does this woman leave her child behind me and it was clear that it was the world the world was just too damn much right because growing up, especially my own personal story. You know I grew up
with a mother who was-
not there in the home and dealing with so many different, very difficult things, and I never understood why. Seattle I was in my my twenties and there were certain certain condition
in her world in her life that lead to, I think, a very similar kind of psychological or psychotic break
that led her to the sir this this this choice,
to abandon me to it to a certain degree.
As I was really important to me to build this world
because I didn't want the episode be punitive towards the mother towards Mabel, towards course, mother, and yet I wanted to really present
this world that these black women of Cora, unable or forced
to endure and why
Cora has the strength to get through it. You know Mabel, unfortunately, does not forget redemption doesn't come to light the last deficit. True, I know I know I know I'm making way forward react by ever in in your own life, though like what? How did that
didn't anger manifest a new through your life
not an anger? No I've never been. I guess an angry person we I just haven't, haven't ever been a one.
too much on the present moment to deal with now to have that energy aha, towards this almost fictive thing, because for a while, my mother, just wasn't
There are also two something instinctively images knew not to blame her. When sooner
I wasn't angry. There were times right, be in certain situations. Where would realise other people, s certain things in their life that I have in my life
I didn't feel better towards those people, I just had to find a way to fill,
and those blanks. Do you think that,
the idea of not by me because someone
He must have been there to do to give
you support in love. In order for you do to not have
a need in your heart to blame right.
To a certain degree year I mean, but also I was just a weird- do I'll, just aware, dude and an
I was. I've always been fortunate to have people in my
I've? No, whether it be you know, my eldest sister Aquitaine is older than me ten,
who, also through a very similar experiences growing up, but also
teachers in these culture as why you know what I'm gonna set, I'm kind of like a football coach to a certain degree by those with a father figures that that I grew up with
the were raised myself. Absolutely. Why? Because I think that that's that speaks to, like you know what is sort of amazing about the balance you're you're kind.
Keeping in in all ten episode that the only counterpoint to the brutality and the hopelessness
as you know, a sense of tenderness and and love, and and
You really don't even thinking green on faith. That much really is about some sort of, like you know, Peter,
yes de sort of except
dense of what is happening, but also this sort of need for community in the idea that they'll survive
I agree with that and I do have faith
in some some just someone make good
and he may hurry. Despite sure all the remaining an elm may even seem to be it. Wasn't it's not a Jesus trip I mean
it's in there, but it really was more about the poetry of compassion some. I agree, I think also to its not a unrealistic depiction of this error. This time period or these
actors, and I think, sometimes his heart process, because some of the imagery does not shy away from the nihilism of the time. So I think that
the academy you're talking of that balance in man it was difficult man, it was really difficult to strike and in there were moments where you know I had to make almost three versions of the scene. In my head, as I was making in M, there was the version that just allowed the darkness disk completely
What we were doing and then there was the version. I try to curb the darkness so much that it was almost like a nest. The size version of the story were telling me always,
to find a way to really just shoot,
down the middle and be very truthful.
But the story we were telling here and be mindful of these things. But this is what the story, Damascus, the experience of the character. It did you.
Because the nihilism
is more in that's wave hunter character.
that you, the guy with the agenda, that any sort of repetition who I found very effective and and and and made me it really brought
Things together for me a bad that, along with some other firms, I've seen lately that were not blackmail
Miss, but just in terms of
the human yes
here it in a way by vat.
character. His name's I've always had Ridgeway Ridgeway yeah, Ridgeway and actors, the austrian guy. What's his name, Joel edges, so you re alive a great great actor
I'm sorry. I'm, like I, don't have anything right in front of me that bad with names to them- I don't know I'm getting old, but that nihilism once you track that guy story you have that it is. It is a simple
emotional issue that made this monster and that he was iraqi irretrievable in terms of what he could do for himself. Could not self correct cannot solve correct, didn't want self correct if anything was bitterly
my? How nihilistic is that
its support. You know- and I think, a job as a great job with it. You know is interesting. You mentioned the repetition, repetition was important to me and I'm sure, Joel at a certain point was like. Why am I saying the same? The manifest asking a manifest destiny, important and in part of this, exactly part of this was the entire five year process are making this year, but was a hearing over and over again make em
Amerika great again over, and
over and over and over again and make worse coming,
from whereas the spin cs is like? Oh here's, this mantra this this imperialism, this manifest
west to just devouring, conquer and vanquish everything.
not like me and so yeah
it was important. It was also important to have this
Flashback episode, which is touched on in the
book, but not as fleshed out?
having the series to really explore how does
person become this way. What the hell is it and was there anything anyone could have done to have corrected it.
think. Maybe there was, and so it is
tricky. You know I was to have been talking about January Sixth, recently has again, which I am a fact in Vienna, and I was in a mixed stage for the show. I remember because we were mixing the show. I was somebody turn your laptop around. I could see the images I couldn't hear anything in that,
but I know what I'm saying this is a
What I'm saying yes was still debating that fact
But this is what has happened in markets insane to me that we are dead.
This thing that everyone has seen right, we are debating what,
is this. What will have a clue what this is, but, but that's because were were up against a fairly shameless and and and out in the open, fascist movement right. That
What we're up against in terms of propaganda and, what's being supportive,
reprocessed as you like it, was it that bad, like you, everything is very far in the bathroom quickly, but all I see is a fairly organised push on behalf
the GEO P and factions within it to to create minority role. That will last for her I mean I I just think: there's no other way to talk about it. We have a fascism problem, yeah
interesting. You there's! No other way to talk about it, but but what would it when? I'm always I just
grew up in the Arab too, when I am before
before there was a way we can all look and see the same thing. In the same moment you know, but whether the internet live streaming, things about better with three networks and a mighty Ben enlightenment. Only because I'm thinking about the cats that that made the internet and in all those in an entrepreneur as well,
who, for a certain time, were quite arrogant and maybe now we're still quite arrogant,
why were they so Eric S? Oh, they just assumed. We ve built this thing that has demise
awkward ties, information right and so now and we want to everyone- can have access to every thing, and so you can.
tell someone something's blue when its red, because everyone can look it up on the internet so that its red right side. Now, that's not what happened not found. What happened Nelson, when what happened is that there is no sense of history and and there's no way to judge fact against fiction in this is why, in this show and trying to get away from fact or fiction, speak towards truth, I was watching reservation dogs of yes to episodes last night. It's pretty wonder,
and I'm really proud of that cut our member way back in the day, my first speech Remington, two thousand eight and the edifice
that was going around the circle. At the same time, that's how I got to know him a little bit senior.
That shows just the fulfilment of so much problem,
the kind of story she's always weren't to tell. I think it is.
Important, whether its fact were fiction that US folks,
You know that we can speak to our own truths now nothing.
But the show. Yes, the fur
So it is a little bit hard it. There is nothing
untruthful about it, as I've done the research mark in their shit way.
Oh yeah man. I remember like that. The the the one thing that I can never unseen from twelve
here's a slave, who was why they were knocking that guy's teeth into force. Feeding. Remember
I guess I'm just sort of like you know, that's real and an end, its egregious your
Brain does like the pain in the infection and then like that,
this is what this is where and it's interesting cause. I don't want my whole life as an artist be about this year to be about addressing this thing that we're talking about now.
At any time. I hear someone say make Amerika great again. May I think about things like that? I think about win was a great then.
is that we want to return to, because
still, not atoned for that?
how can we ever be great until we atone for that, and if that thing is out
say out of mind: how will we return for it and
think there is a responsibility. Man
as a heavy. His word
two: when we have the opportunity- and I had
this movie that one of these awards, what can I do with
well the summer time to speak my truth, because five years from now probably won't have the ability to sit out you. This was right. The capital that you use from Moonlight o, undoubtedly I mean I mean that the show, as I think you know, as as much gravitas as it has as much veracity as it has a still a really big budget production, and I think that to make it at this level are required.
Cashing in the capital, as you say, but it was worth it. I am.
I could have gone off done some else
could may low more money mark. But this thing I had to do what no, but I think that it seems like throughout, like at least the features that you ve done, that
you know, it seems like the first two years, including moonlight that yours sort of they were
part of your personal journey that you were resolving thing sat there
you know you are experiencing in terms of defining who you are right, he undoubtedly cause I'd. May I know why you know I go back with why I heard him only up as item on the show. You know he's a tense. These an intense guy is an intense guy, but that movie was in a very specific. It fell to me,
that medicine for melancholy was a guy. You know young black man in a situation socially and culturally, where were sort of like how do I fit in here right,
and again did you feel like by doing that film that you got some closure on that? I did what
closure that I think it's why the next film was about. Ok, we're shit. Where are you from like who you really
rights are the sole medicines. Are melancholy, was sort of like you, Eve
explained the surface, yes exactly, I would agree, and it was the surface of where I was at that point. I graduated from college in countries like Bob
you know, I didn't really have any plans or have any goals and in making movies that he can make a movie high, and I was I was in love with this woman and like truly love of this woman and through her fell in love with the city and then, when that all sort of fell away a music. Well, what do you want to do? In fact
Jessica in San Francisco. You hadn't gone to film is going I gonna film school, but I was six years and move from foam school. I spent two years and allay and didn't enjoying for San Francisco yea. I was here. Man Adam has very privileged. I worked on a movie star, Halley bury our direct assistance. Movie is called their eyes watching. God is an adaptation Amazonia Hurseton novel, my sentiments harder for now the sky, James Langston. His mom knew somebody who was working on that film yet been said about you get if you come not like me, the gig, but got me in the door Raw Sosa, maybe it's a low but a nepotism bia, but she said if you come here, I graduated December fourteen, if you're here over the Christmas holidays, nobody also be here. I can maybe kitchen interview with the director exactly was it was Donna, Martin necessarily awesome director, and so I got my ass on the planet.
Came to allay and slept on a couch for Christmas and new year by Ass Alfie. But I got the interview. Nea was myself, I think, like five or the people, and I got the gig here- I got the gig and some a first year was watching
Big ass Hollywood feature come together and then my second year I worked in development, has an assistant, Harpo Films, Amis winfried Company, looking first two years now. What what did you learn on that? Because I can
as somebody who I did my own show that you know
and I didn't know how a lot of things were right. I mean I imagine whatever film school taught, you was not what you learn that year. It was not what I learned that year, but I will say Donna, Martin, who is this this this woman from New York City. She came up. What are you issues in a sea and wrote the script quota like you like that, made her first film
really awesome woman and she had this mission every time she did a film shit,
four hours. She did. A couple of other movies in prisons are issues that whenever she had a film yeah, she wanted to have her assistant. Be someone from a dish.
Vanished, back retrovirus browser like at risk youth, and so I was
next to learn that, because of where was from a guy- and I got the skin Miami yeah yeah, she and she was just really diligent about. If you gonna take the job, you gotta learn something tat. I was in every meeting house
Every rehearsal I was next,
every second of that shoe
got to see everything so that financial, it was essential. It was. It was like a second film school me ass, a career last foam school, but I will say I realize right away. Oh I do
want to do that.
I can't do that. I'm like I can't. I can't make this work the directing the
directing in that system, known, ok,
just because I saw, and it was a stone
looking back on it, it was a pretty wonderful process here for d, but I realized I
couldn't do that not yet to be beholden to producers and then to just the whole thing and also in an that's, that's one element of it, but also being on a Saturday, and there are hundreds of people are you're a movie star, Stare movie star producers, I'm just so many things. There are things that we
We must stop myself there. He is a darn, Elsie or you're, not my butt, but she she she she put up would allow. You know she carried a lot here as a go. I can't showed her what she showed her not right now, you already, I wasn't ready so after two years and allay you're right again, you know a man I was I was. I was a young and dumb but think back on it. I'm very proud of myself because I was Workin, Harpo Films, man, free is really goods are employees and for one
cave and first I'm alive had no idea what the hell that was with somebody told me here. You can catch that our early. If you want, I take like forty fifty percent tax it, but even cash it out, and I think
and let the year and a half I d like ten or twelve grand in air- and I had always faster, has about you, know:
my kids graduate I like his kids of kids of means, Gray Eric College. They go back back in Europe if it oh. I can't do that, but I, like trains out backpack around the. U S here, so I cast him a forlorn k and export train tickets around the country and
The first stop was in San Francisco owes therefore, but three months
This young woman and then I just kept
I didn't a train with their know how she she had a real life. She had to be very interesting about training where we're like. You know where what
I've taken trains United, a romantic idea about it. I took one
most all the way across country. But it's weird that
the areas they drive through when people say the other side, the tracks, that's where you see exactly what you see and also your casino you go from from San Francisco to New York, yet you cut through Chicago now that's a long ass! True long, you get sweeper car heeded, thou, have no astronomic money, stretch brow. So no actually, I slipped a bright net low chair and then I go to the viewing card to have today here in you. Actually I didn't realize it back then, because the lines aren't as as finally delineated Diane, but it was, it was probably someone who's anti backs, probably some one
I'm staying resettlement, this thing and that that they hear you sitting right next to the core of an ado but talk, and it was a really is really wonderful experience. Man and I got a lot of things that I had am I gonna get them out of my head. Why can get
like in in in speaking to that year and speaking to while people handle information they put in their head verses. What their life really is, because I think that what
ever. You learned over time that in
underground rail road, even with Edgerton character of these wave hunter, that you are you I wouldn't say that you made him an empathetic character, but you made inhuman yeah. I agree and my job and in Jos really good about this. To you know he s first thing out of his mouth was, I know, bury I dont want to redeem this character. That's not
what that's? Not what I'm here for you, I know not where you're here for end
idea of empathy for the character? Even that was a very fine line up, but
he's a human being and also to I thought, I'm not afraid to show.
That is a human being. I think it's almost imperative to show his human being that way, people don't go, I'm a human
That's a monster
the thing is over there and I'm over here now, only Diana and by the time you get the back story, your like yeah, you keep it.
it is some kind of empathy but you're a but because you like got while INA when you really realize that
these emotional, that most of this political,
fury and misdirected anger,
and and and even racism. Just in some cases is
It is because there are emotionally cripple because of legacy right, that
yeah yeah it's hard not to be empathetic, you don't you don't want to redeem the guy? Well, it's
interesting man, because when you really trip back deep deep back then
Ego backs the colonies and how even the very beginning, I'm talking about the car
as fighting off the British yeah, you know, and this idea of legacy where that comes from you know, is there.
I was gonna, be this perpetual chip. You know on on the shoulder of of true them using areas now of the true American, and is that thing going to create this
situation where there's always is very dark sort of. Like pit
at the core of whatever the american ideal, is because its
point you know, I don't know what
already? There is in something was driven so much by this darkness. Bitterness this anger, but that's caught at the root
a certain degree, drawing really tripped. When I make
history lesson buddy. I really trip down into it, gets a little low, muddled, no yeah, muddy Maria N n n e I've just started
this sort of feel that their there
some days. I don't necessarily have hope,
but I have it in some sense. It may be
truth, can prevail, but most days I'm sort of like I've, we're fucked. You know that
the hard thing with with making the show you gonna go into some really dark places in yeah yeah
and you're gonna ricotta, just like you engulfed in this darkness, cost hundreds of sixteen days over sixty seven months and every day you get there. You know you have to reach out and touch something very dark.
now, you're touching it. For reason, neutron excavated and hope we show
in some way like what a truly is, how it comes to be, and maybe that can lock
I can see it, and I can see that at least in acknowledging it
gotta be some way I can address it. That's the hope, bogus
I know what I mean. I think there's there's a lot of hope in any sense of of survival in family compassion. The show create yes, the listeners. I do think there is hope in the show or note requisite for you personally. I was there for me personally witnessed. How often did did the cast have to take a breath,
because of lack of what was happening. Not too often we are not too often mean that there were very one. There are some something I didn't know about. You know too so actually admitted to me the other day
This is what I thought was a very simple scene in the next. The last episode you know,
after she's walking down the street after the big action sequence, her lover shot in the back and then Ridgeway picture up off the ground
dragging her back to the wagon
me I didn't realize it, but to submit it to mean we're Doin, a q- and I recently
yeah. I do go to
thereupon after that scene and because
had to have her help me come
act to myself and get away from the character- and this is maybe like seventy five days in and so that's it.
now that the relentless you're good at some point, your wife is anything
gonna turn any realise historically, no,
Not now you haven't read the book here in
it's even more relentless
More relentless little girls not there for her to go back to a she doesn't get to stand over him, no and pop pop lobbies. If you shots at him, I feel like I,
neither legally audience recognises as well, but you write, it is relentless and it was relentless. It was relentless
Yet it is relentless. It still is, but a. But I will say, though, the fact that I am I get the idea I am sitting right and that there is now a cultural conversation, physical to conversation, and I got to harness all these tools to recreate the image of my assesses, the something very hopeful and that I can t
the EU, thus having read the testimonies of these,
people of the real I people. These characters in some ways are based on the EP. The idea
of me creating the sting of us myself in these artisans crew. Creating this thing it would just speak
I just can't even imagine there were times when I try to imagine it was too overwhelming. Oh eight,
beginning to when you are taking on the task. Exactly what I mean. It's worth it
seems to me that the jump from the fire
this film, melon, medicine for melancholy and and and Moonlight like did seem like
There is a tremendous education that happened in between those two and there would seem to be a lotta years,
there were not a year's Lahti,
is that the education
not so much. I think I'll. I grew the degree that I understood what it was I wanted to do. I think you Eve
that man and nobody's pick that in that way, you know
I love my first film I do, but there is something so
a fuss about it as far as as it relates to me as a person, whereas once you get to Moonlight be hit, is deep down in the pit. Oh my stomach like there is nowhere to hide
so I think moonlit medicine is more intellectual or moon. Let us look from the gun and you may choices around how to shoot in that way. It seems that from the beginning that you know you are a filmmaker thinker, that you know that whatever your relationship is with your cinematography, it seems to be of the essence of how you know of of
what you are as an otter right, yeah
and also think too, especially with this, but this when talking about the show me, the book already exists. The outlook for computer we know, and as far as material is their exact and now I mean, as far as words go it's been maxed out, but now I have a son. You know I have the earth I have light. I have all these people,
embodying these it. These expressions, there's going to cry
a whole different thing.
a whole new level of experiencing it should elevate was on the page
It's it's! I should supplement the feeling that are on the page, and so
think when we get out there in the field in Europe
we approach more like the same way, but I haven't
at a time when I'm a lot of tools but hot damn. What is here that is truly
truly at you, are using the word, but the word cannot was pungent. You were talking about going to bub avail. The icing on your address mill here and is the way you are describing in looking your face. It was like the ship was pungent, yet every flavour was in the act of March Joy, just like lighting up every muscle.
we are making moonlight, we like where's the pungent shit
yeah. I only got twenty five days of everything's pungent we're gonna, have the most immersive evocative film
We just carried that through everything we do we bright eyed me. I could see it. Youth everyone was for a sweaty was hot. He employs glistening here you just like the idea, the sweat and hair products, and you know feet the new year. I mean also like that in the beach. You know the whole thing here, but
but yet that movie
it seems to be
I don't know how much you
from the source material, but it does seem to have a lot of your story in it. No, it's got a lotta must story in it and a lot of the playwrights Roma cranny story. Do you know that guy
I know now I didn't know him then, and I should have. We grew up blocks from each other real and went to some of the same schools I'm a year older than him on, though I look eight years under him procedure. He just one of those
people come here, but
but our lives, both our moms and went through. The same thing you know, Michael, is why
in addition to crack, okay here, no the nineteen eighties in Miami wish just it I was it was. It was a rough time and there was a Russia and it was a rough time in the
de industrialization of working class jobs in Miami at this time and just the infestation of narcotics, very cheap narcotics here at this time I just created,
very predatory environment, yadda and both by man. His mom fell prey to those things, so I knew that story MIA. It was worth
things Marcus. I'm glad you brought him up something he created. This
opening for me to go into my gut with my art.
I would have never. I was too afraid
touch that story. I didn't wanna goes that place with myself and I thought I cannot
You know he contemplated trick coming out
shit about him is right about media, but then you get there
either because the resources are limited. You starts rely on your instinct and in doing that, you're very readily, just revealing more more about yourself, and so you other movies. Very
that's gonna lovely that both of us could get good,
through some of these things about our very personal lives and is very public way
that would people engage that film to this day the S day? You know I'm forty
one hope. We are still be donors when I'm sixty one here, but I'm probably not going to touch anyone as viscerally, as I did with that film. Oh yeah, like
Why, in in the sense of who
you find it resonates with almost every
there is no grounds crosses all demographics Breyer. I have had sixty year old white men cry a mile
I am arms,
screening of this film and, of course,
There are young black kids who
We are trying to voice who they are, who see
spare me some of them tell me you know
film. This phone say my life. Some them tell me this.
film made me want to be a filmmaker, so I could tell my story. It is like I remember watching things, but people I admire and going your phone made me want to be a filmmaker, so I can tell my story. I coo EE, oh
Claire Denise work our wise by glee when Ramsay here I mean so many of us of these really one of appeal. I discovered in
home school, because they were just very passionately
like in their lives through this visual imagery, and I thought Lynn Rams.
especially as someone actually got to meet Vienna first went to film Scotia movie CALL Ratcatcher, which is about these
He is growing up and in this the scarecrow
in Scotland, and it's this plan
a swear, bazooka trash
right. So there's just did you shit everywhere? There must be the stems. Baldwin quote from those we could talk where he says you know the kids,
until they weren't worth shit and everything around improved it that is rather hatchet had enough, shall be right, I'm a yet, and so I go to this film festival on this woman's there and shares
for more than Carlos at the first and I spoke to her and she spoke to me more
she spoke to me. I would have
your question, she would ask me a question to me: there are fifty of us in the class rattle all of us, kids, visionary turkey was, she would speak back and it was clear.
here as someone from a place like me most
working at a level. So far beyond me, and yet every thing
her is is saying to me
you and me were the same and we do the same thing. I just
happened to be here, and you just happened to be there right now, but there's no reason you can't sit in his chair right and it wishes so a shit.
Affirming brown hair, like change. There was affirming and I've gone out, and don't you and aid for moonlight, especially when it was out beyond lease,
I could see I could see. Young people have the same experience me. While I mean you know that
the thing that you are able to do in its iced. I said this to two legal Tommy yesterday,
because you know she did respect and I was in their film in and I see how she shooting
and I said I said to her- I brought you up and in how you shoot the black body on
gonna like nobody seems to do it like that.
There is some sort of reciting saturated. I don't know what it is. It's an attention paid to what then you're using or why. But
the effective it is amazing and also the you choose to hold these spend time. I think I think it's an attention paid for sure, and I think that you know
amongst a group of of peers were working in this way. Right now-
just for whatever reason in my work has landed in the center area, certain spaces and- and
somebody's other folks are still doing work. That is every bit
probably in my opinion
stronger. I don't know, maybe they're fine, as is done in college. Also from was really amazing. He's is more fine artist, disease, music, videos and a half, and he does this escalation peace that play it. Museums that screen that these very big, Dick, our festivals, he's absolutely one,
before and then raffer young cinematograph, her, who
primarily for ever do her name.
but does, but as other people's work as well, I shot was nominated for arrival
easing amazing, we're all sort of in the same age, remainders too, oh, my God, carry James marginally actually is is, is is kind of like the day that the be all and all my opinion,
like an inspirational magical, realism exactly exactly but but very grounded in the right thing with Miss Marsh. That's really cool that I discovered
because you were saying you know, is it a lens? Is that this year was really cool right now is myself mustn't a metaphor and our colleague correction not Alex pickle. You know we can sit down and we know all the actress wherein the cast right away. You don't pick
was creating these films. Stocks is created,
he spoke stocky as were filming knowing the caste and knowing how we want to represent the skin and
products in everything were doing is, is kind of like
like subduing the camera,
doing the lines so that it is prioritizing this flash and so
to a certain degree, it is very, very orchestrated, but
today's Marshall. I remember reading that an in built.
The paints that he, though, the cows that he paints with visa he's combining all these pigments you know, and so as not just black. You know, is this blue
That is very, very concentrated. You know in the spectrum of spectral yeah, just a really lovely way of working, but
it it's kind that the
It s, not a, I think, about, intellectually by adding another moment in the show,
where is? Is that it's a blinking? You miss it kind of moment, but in the first Indiana episode,
We go from the two main characters in theirs is woman, just walking down the side of the grass, and she said she approach.
Is this poet,
They have this harry, this very sexy conversation. She says you speak sums
Some pretty fine worry. If I gave you my sorrows, would you make them sound? Pretty he asked and that's not an script is not in the school mark. I didn't have to actors who urges both they had
proposal. It was the proposal exactly they had chemistry. They were just stood there.
Something very, very
beautifully just like black and central seductive about the method. I have got a deal
something with that it now I'm making a show a get hundreds sixteen days angle on time and do something with that right and so what can I do? Have a camera have an amazing operator, the sky Jarrett Morgan,
ok, ADA Possum, unacquainted passengers eager worms way and all these places and
and to set him she's gonna walk down there and they are going to have the loveliest the hottest conversation about what
words here and he's gonna get on his knee and you ve got a drift down there and you be the third party and we did get is able to set the often aside that we did and when I was to show I'm so glad that moments in their because here we
The story. Comics atop parties advantage to write. He did the guy he's kind of a minister hallway, cunegonde, anger. Ok, here he goes around runner his mouth preaching and speaking. Let you says he is mighty fine, whereas what we can at the top.
at the top the conversation we were talking about, how its relentless in his very dark and is still involves very heavy things, but there's a pound
there's always always because that moment is so unspeakably tender and his name.
one thing about telling the story set in this time: yeah these tender moments the also happen,
They had yeah she's, no way I'll use in her talking to you, but that was the human spirit. That was the thing the elevated it that, like you know, you cause you ask yourself, and I imagine you did as well how the fuck did we survive this shit? How do we keep going in the face of this and it so easy and almost Hackney did too to sort of hang it on Jesus or community by me
oh I'll, admit to you. I did ask that question because I know that I betrayed myself, but I
I'm very, very adamant about you, know the director being sort of the Compass one set and on this one I was, I gotta,
we strongly. May I be strong for anybody in dead,
I never leave a set.
I'm always there. He added! I just don't leave no matter how hard it isn't. It was hot as hell, some of these days or our code, it was cold it s. Some of these days my gonna go sit on the heater I'm gonna be on set. When we did,
The card to began. Thirdly, is is burned alive, oh my god. Now, there's no there's no fire.
you know, there's no fire. The at the whip is not real. Ghana, there's the guys on a harness and yet still felt so damn real so much so that even though
the background there, and this is true- these spectacles
you weren't just were spectacle sake. People were forced to watch. You know, as a show of this will happen to you years away of
of inducing control.
preserving the sort of hierarchy and so
the background that are watching this thing, we're doing it even on there's. No fire, there's no blood, none of the others, visual effects. I walked off,
nobody. We, we were just about to finish the scene
I decided to do another taken. I was sitting there and it is
rogue man I started crying. As you know, I can't I kid Beckett how to crucify cry. I walked off my own set
and- and I shall just walk out where I, when I just started, walking in a real us out
my assistance can walk off the said yeah. They couldn't hear that
couldn't I ought to go back and then so I took myself back. Thankfully, no I work with all my friends, and so when I got back in photography, James lacks my best friend known as God for twenty years
he's already he's got his moving onto the next thing. You know Pierre in and I think he knew because he's never see me done that he knew
he needs a moment. If any know what he's allow this moment, when will keep the machine going here and then he'll come back a slit Breton and I did but
in TAT moment. I felt this guilt because no one I'm depicting had the luxury had the privilege had the ability to do us to act.
Kate themselves from this moment and so
when people say how I couldn't get through the first episode. I can get to the second episode
I wish my ancestors had a luxury. Why? But I think that, like ie, you know it it's, it's is short sighted and in its reactive and that the truth is that I think what you ve created here in terms
and also its that sort of strain.
image improvisational adventure that you got hung up on their with the poet and the words is that you know you really working with
in poetry, here right and so in of the balance that we keep talking about is
the language of the human heart and human tenderness and some sort of strange innate compassion. That seems to be real that we we lose touch of every day because of what we do to our heads is really the through. I know this thing: it's not the violence
I agree, and even when those things are misused in the other,
one of improvisation and I'm really proud of, is in that tennis,
The episode have shocked by this a bit in the press near the conversation that Joam and Chase that Ridgeway in Homer have bought by the lake
but that's improvise as well as not plant. After that, the state
He had the enslavement Jasp Jasper escapes me
low fever camp fear is kneeling before the cross. Ridgeway finds him, and he had no time for that in the very next seen the little boy homer standing by a lake in Ridgeway walks up to Germany has in these keys, and he says to his words to him. He says on me
is to see you and me, and then he goes in this mantra. You have to
Strong. Like me, you have to be watchful like me, and then he says you have it,
pride and new work.
Because so much of the end
optimization of american exceptionalism, much needed
harmonization of all these things were hearing near this idea of making a great again. You know it's about this prize
so much. If I don't wanna be ashamed by this, and I want to be ashamed of my
so much about this. Prior. These Montrose repetition- and I thought I might
it struck me nor understand what this relationship between this man and this boy is
I cannot know something about it. When I see it, it's grooming, its endogenous nations, manipulation its seduction in. So I thought
like me like me, I just want these words, and so as reforming on that day, I went to the bathroom came
When a text a Joel, a few lines- and I said I'm not going-
tell chase what we're doing
if we get ahead on the day, there's gonna be there.
It often choices the little care chase. The working hours accurate. He was ten, we filmed is probably eleven and I have to do is he seemed it was interesting that character was added the book I was in the book because, like you know it's weird when he and when you think about you know how the eye
the idea of a lot of time,
comes or his created in any sort of thieves you this will guide dressed up like that. You start thinking Tom Thumb and write me lightning, then cause he was really a little man and he seemed to represent something.
very insidious and also to their. There are sometimes wonder how certain people again come to be the way they are. A glimmer of childhood
as always think a really important that the only way, but a really important way to escalate somewhat
things there. So you have the characters in the book. I was very,
eight of this character,
I think it it's
That's a very difficult thing to have a child do child actor.
the things that this character does in the show me up and also to
have to be very aware. What am I communicating because you, I don't want anyone to hate this child to hate
this child, the child playing video, but can you know it's weird fuckin thing was- is that I think the most that the mood
most enduring, and strangely empathetic moment that you have with that kid is.
when he, he handcuffs himself to sleep in the book,
Yeah, but you know I mean I do know what you mean is when I, when I got them all in the book out like
It says, says everything without without verbally saying anything, but it says
report he becomes sort of this mythological character like,
You know there, you can't you don't look at him and always a child into, because I usually with a character like that.
You need them to break and when he does it's because his master, who is is gone and then
then again that their that care.
Because he has a future that different. Now that's
very different, although a joke about the kids, can we justify gonna clam about it? There is no figure. He's got a worm as way in some other. Some of the persons hardly think he's gonna be just fine, but he just seem to be symbolic. After a certain point, I dont look at him as I didn't look at his humanity as much as what he represented
I agree in this place where, where I landed with him here, the thing is just such a great actor and Joe and Chase. You know had such a wonderful way.
working together and when you do, when a child actor the adult and the scene with the child is helping you direct
direct a person- is a credit to Joe I'm falling
one of the word chase does and the show
yeah, it was clear to me was started badgering Colson. The author
that year. He is a symbol of certain things if I,
ever got to the bottom of what what he symbolizes unless you're sure what I mean, not just the evolution from if be Austria could talk towards
you know accepting and challenging self with the awesome responsibility which I have to assume you saw underground redwood as be did,
the experience of working with with Baldwin's texts specifically
and and honestly and Bill Street sort of
waking your ability to to sort of take on that responsibility,
did they added and but in banana way. I expected MA. Am you know, because
Mr Baldwin is no longer with us. You know I
call him a resource to ask him
Is it okay? If I do this, what you think, if I do that, I just decided to Veritec. You very close to the text with the exception of the ending, and it wasn't until way deep in the process, and we have been through this-
acting this intention that that I realized oh shit. I ought to take the end.
I now I can't hide behind the text I had to take it. What was the ending? The ending in the book is brutal at brood on the other.
Bodies Fannys her mom, her mom comes home in
basically tells her that
on his dad, has killed himself
and that induce her to go into labor and
implied that funny just stays, rots and prison, and I thought I can't in
this film filmed it that way
I can't have this film end on
this child, coming into the world with the father whose essentially lost and a grandfather
whose absence was lost, was literally lost as well care, and so I went in and try to have again facts.
I am thinking of this book is as fiction, but if you say the translation, he asked what actually happens in the book, but what's the truth,
Habits in the book was the feeling I can arrive at, but I think so.
who speaks to what Mr Baldwin intended, but
it was, the ending that I felt like represent what I wanna say with the book, and so I came up
It's not like it's a happy end as not a happy ending. As I was not a happy, it did so it out now I didn't sell it out, but but I did have to have to take possession of the bright, because because really as you're saying it you as you speak, because I didn't read the book that its clear that their
Baldwin was was doing that for at effect he's pissed, yes, socialist, so what you did was you know,
just shave off that this sort of
self inflicted violence and the violence of of of faith or what
exactly hand, and you you made it an intimate reality.
What probably would have happened,
and then moving into underground rail road,
this Colson was there are decided right away that the text of that,
next and the show was the shown you know, especially working with the Gruber right as we had a writers room of really wonderful people, very small one. You know
Where do we see ourselves in this book, you know and where, whereas the edge of the book, but we feel like the edge of the show can be here, and so the
Girl was in the attic with her North Carolina is not in the book at all. She goes in the attic issues in the attic by herself.
eighty pages, and I thought I can't have the audience sitting in here with this woman for four sixty minutes. She is no one to talk to, but
but it was a great a great moment. I thought Colson created great window so much this is about this woman may be coming to terms or finding some way to understand the soccer
by her mother, had to make so oh
she's in this environment. Now she has to mother. That's what we decided to put the little girl in the attic with her
What we did also realized, oh shit, I can't
that girl behind- I don't want
No, my consciousness, I went on the audience, ivy no ice, like you know I mean, maybe you can. If you go back to this weird you know like like after you do either behind any. Would you give us like fifteen minutes Elvis and it's like us back door,
which which, in everything about that episode, is found in a way.
that is the idea of giving us a break she get dragged. I know I know, but it's good, it's good if it worked, which would you rather, would you rather seen it and assume that little girl burned to the ground? I guess I didn't. I didn't know how much car can take with true digitally I mean
Well, that's a moment
where you're, like you know how do? How does this spirit survive? This right,
and she doesn't know the decade lived. She doesn't know.
and she knows how to take like the
what was go? That way that that actress played that yeah?
were you start to realize the the?
the burden of of of inexplicable violence on going to self and others, and in no way to get out of it that you know
what does that do to the heart Rio in terms of either there's no way to even process that Greece, so, like
But somehow or other I tricks, you made a work, I mean there's no way to process the grief, but when you really like map out what you see in this is the generation of women that give birth to the women who give birth to an ok, we're you know who
this movement that opens to Malcolm X. The grace
What is more, this environment stubby, be the boys. This literally the generational Una. Give birth Adobe, be two boys that open this movement that does
create to some degree a more perfect union me ass to some degree, because you
go from eighteen sixty five nineteen sixty five enlightens.
Fifty five is fucking huge for
complexion of this country is not
This. The civil rights of black folks is also the immigration act. You know that
That brings all folks and opens all these opportunities, and, as is,
ricochet effect over the whole world and
the women who gave birth a generation. This is what the
to go through where I started feel regularly. I thought that I felt like you are right: when you see that generation, probably most, we got
but yet there was suggestions in you know in some of the waiter episodes when you know when she arrives in the city, and I
I can remember exactly what it was we realise, like you, don't know you until you sit down. What's it like an old woman Yahoo,
How do I get like it's also in the same sense of of Holocaust survivor, right that you know why?
get something that the the survival.
I have time for grief, it doesn't know it doesn't right
it doesnt, because if it is unfortunate because no leaves the psychological effects that we know,
so much about now, you know everything about her own.
had they must have been just like over over run now you mean with PTSD, exactly righteously, so much Sumer psychological trauma more almost in a trance, exactly writing almost any transcribing, almost in a terrific dying in a trance. Yes, undoubtedly, and so you write anything, but what it thinks is really lovely about. Two souls performance
these Cora, as you can
feel her she's leaving all these people behind
but she's, not leaving them behind as why these faces recur so
throughout the shall keep records. Keep now she's carrying these people with her
has. It manifests itself
falls down the ladder Ridgeway lying on his back
get some handcart, she
go but not
I'm not going to repeat I'm not I'm gonna
oh, the circle, the cycle of abandoned right and she goes back
she grabbed the girl doesn't doesn't happen in the book. She go,
back and she grabbed the girl and she takes here.
As she takes care of business, which also has not yet been dealt with by the weird thing. Is it doesnt reed as as justice? It reads as
This has to stop it is this has to stop, and I remember we were doing these porches. We call to ashes walking and we just started doing those mark were making a show, and I looked over the background act was one day ass, like Hockney look,
amazing that even the right word. I look at them in a few things we just have to
pause were doing and capture this and ask
you started, filming them or when there are stand it still in their origin, still may always converge with our member saying to James the Cinema target for as a key know what she's
get off. Handcart she's gonna grab that gun she's gonna be walking towards him and we're going to see all these faces ashes.
stand over him and we're gonna see all these four he's got you running. Fuckin mouth
and we're gonna see all these faces. Now. What I
didn't plan when I can never plan. Is she pops him and to so this young woman, she's amazing? Here she cries. I
does not script. It made them whatever emotion that came out of her
it's. What came out of her every take
she would stand over him and shoot. Em universities quarter loads, and then these
Here's will come out
like YO, I did. I didn't expect you to release that. I knew you'd release, something where you not in it
shop in the air and whooping arrive, but I didn't expect
that should re whom her every
single take hundreds.
Because that is like all the
brief you were talking about all these things she's carrying all these people. Some
I just gotta stop and when it stops, it doesn't take the pain away grey,
It doesn't take the pain away. So that's why she releases
that emotions release that tear, but it does stop this thing.
and the journey goes on right
Yes is really
making. The show was, who is a healthy? How how is it like you? You seem to feel- and I think rightfully so, that you know you- you did a great job
I'm. I'm I'm happy with your. Not as everyone agrees is definitely has a masterpiece feel and its in its thorough and its affecting, and
now it is of its own white. How is it being received? I have no idea
I have no idea critically him in a degree by we, I think thorough, is the right word. I do feel like its. It is a thorough piece of work, and so have you go to working like I did. I do my best to day. I think I did the best.
current Vienna and then that that, whenever
that feeling a thoroughly good move?
but if I did the best, I could, I think, bullshit. I could download better this one. I did the best I could make inherit his pig. Much is my personal opinion. Have great
No, I wish more people watching it. I wish more people were talking about it or are you? Why did I do
who sense how
Is it landed in the black community? Do you have any sense
is interesting because, right now we can't physically go
to any community I miss being able to go to Kuba ACE
I would have loved to have gone to Chicago Atlanta. Detroit outline a sign oratory me out to people about the show what I
get incoming on social media is very positive. Before
show came out what I
got incoming or social media was very negative people just
Jack. These remedies site unseen people
just don't want to be reminded of the.
Brief that you and I have been talking about it. You know of the way people
who are ashamed at seeing these images of degradation subjugation so much so I don't. They don't even want to wade through those images, tickets and, I hope, a mass of tenderness where things it was really really just like the shocking
for me personally, making the show it was a real something I'd knew, but as one
thing to know something into feel it, which was we added a guidance counselor
for the run of shell, we're therapists. It was always onset woman who
when they pull me off my set because she felt like she could see that I was carrying too much
The trauma of the show in that process
pull me about that really yea pull me offset
because we empower her. We said this yesterday.
practices? Actions as cut this woman,
this can come. Why there she supersedes me if she sees that you I'm cannot do what
you need to do or that you need to process something. She could stop everything at once. She put me off balance that man, but
what you say
Is she said she said? Are you ok,
I'm fine. She said. No, you not far. You not ok! What's going on, I go
you know it was near the end of filming the first chapter, Georgia, we filmed
the first and last chapter Georgia and Mabel back to back as when the applications
carrying out around right.
I was saying to her yeah. You know I'm good, because no
I know I know I know I do what this weekend I came.
The crew yeah right, you know see me not not keep together. She goes yeah you from keeping together for the crew, but who's gonna direct the Shoah, when you can keep it together for you, and so we sat down- and this is like
ten p m and night on a split we like times
but ass. She would not let me go back until I totally release
I did release. I did a day.
it was. There was the day,
before there was an actor who does something? That's not even violent here, I'm in the very first episode when the third, the owner of the plantation,
brings the kid over to read the declaration of independence. This is one can slave man, frightful who grab
the kitten says he had. This boy can do it. You know he's with MIKE while he pushes him into the center.
I just unlock something in the actor who had to grab the little boy and he just yet our time with it, and so she went and talk to him and seeing how and is a really gregarious sky seeing how affected he was by this thing
It was even wasn't. He was whipping somewhere
ecologically he placed this choice.
Held in harm's way and he
he had a. He had a hard time separating himself from that here, and I just realized I just had the stars. Like you know
am I doing the right thing by bringing all these people into the story,
we talked in what she had to say was very hard and then she born she had already talked to her.
Pierre in it, and it served her function she had done was to do.
he paused when, when, when I saw him, do that
but he was losing. I said to her: you need to go talk to him, and so we pay,
on that day here on this day, because I
it had then its is. Where were you doing these things like spiritual transference, especially when you all in it together? You know it affects one in affects us all and.
I was having at this person there who was really wonderful them there to make sure we get our release here. I was
I wasn't releasing the damn thing, and so yes, she permitted a cyber
for me to decide and- and we got through it-
and then we can move in its whose decision was to hire that person. You know I
This is where I will give the studio credit. How good the steady on credit from the very first meeting asking, because I knew we can have an intimacy Courtney right, but this
something even even above that yesterday said yeah,
we're gonna have to have a therapist on sir and I got a trauma counselor.
What did the softening with that? We heard technical term was a guidance counselor but she's a licence, clinician and yes, she hoped lotta people get you some things. Why so heavily used? Oh, you know, is an heavily used in the beginning. This I'll come back to me. The answer I was gonna, give about shame.
heavily used and the beginning, as we got further and further into it
less and less
especially amongst the yard. The black actors and the crew is worth a year
You were teamed up with this idea of shame. Are you saying was banned, the response and the community in saying how for certain people,
rejected the show site on seeing you don't want to deal with the strong
illicit these feelings of shame pair in making the show in the
I would see Miss White go over and she would talk ass. You belong to the black has nor embodying the enslaved and then, as we kept gone, Kip
we're going. I would see less of that and I would seem more some of the White Crew
going over his. Why here in what are things that was very clear, not
everything we did
was shameful because there there were some very tender moments in the show. Yet there were some
empowering moments in the show, but when the shame did reveal itself, it was very clear and speaking as a black person out, the shame is not ours in that was something that
that became very, very clear to me. Not. I knew
that intellectually, but of to feel it I think, was,
was a very interesting things in that it took a man. It's a minute, yeah, it's a comment
because we just we hide these images you know, is even in scouting the show the plantation houses exist right on the same properties. The slave quarters have been erased, and so we
from scratch you bill.
these things and more frequent opportunism in it are really wonderful job. When you step into them and see them the twelve,
people living in a shack who
what human beings subject, another human being to this, while it that was the other thing, I'm sure it's in the book, the constant referred to it,
not he or she urine
but that was in the book. We actually do how the pegre a little bit and
things in the Georgia chapter in the book,
not lying about anything. Now, it's all rooted in truth, but
the again, he won't appeal answer for the book in
did a great job turning the phrase yet
I mean that the whole thing was amazing. It had a profound effect on me and it was a pleasure talking it. Thank you.
Pledges arm. I ever did you did you do to the whole intro with the what the FUCK guy with the fucker less to either of these out before I die? I do these separate now do that later, so I can
oh yeah, figure out how to set you up vacuum,
a pre eminent was great done document
there you go watch it. If you can handle it, you should take it off
underground, railway is now streaming on Amazon, prime video. That was very Jenkins. You just checking,
if there were a radio show, if you like,
I would add, that was very Jenkins. Direct,
underground, don't forget this
I'd gas sponsored by better
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-02.