Tony Kushner is one of the most important American playwrights of the past 50 years who is now a creative partner of one of the most important American filmmakers of the last 50 years. Tony talks with Marc about working with Steven Spielberg on Munich, Lincoln and the new adaptation of West Side Story. They also discuss the history of Jews in the Louisiana lumber industry, the pivotal moment of Angels in America that came to him in a dream, and the play he saw when he was six that made him want to be a part of the theater community.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey folks, thanks for being understanding about me changing my date because of the cove it I'm feeling better, I don't feel a hundred percent, but I wanted to remind people that the dates from Napa have been
of two February eighteen at the Uptown theatre, the date for San Francisco, to shows a seven and nine thirty has been moved to February nineteenth the date for Fremont. The free
theatre in San Luis Obispo has been moved to March Fifth and the date
for the Euro, Barrow Theatre in Santa Barbara California has been moved to March Sixed now
tickets are available for those shows as well. If you, if you can go and you couldn't before you can,
I'll come and also it doesn't seem like a lot of people cancelled, I'm sorry to inconvenience you about that, but do
it was the right thing to do the first date,
In this way, the tour is actually going to be in San Diego at the absurd
restoring North park on February alive,
then too shows sick.
Thirty, nine fifteen for all too,
information for all the days go to W Tia
pod. Dot com, slash, tour, okay,
Let's do the show now
all right. Let's do this, how are you or the fuckers what the fuck bodies what the fuck next what's happening? I'm
mare- and this is my podcast- welcome to it
How are you I think
better. I don't feel a hundred percent, I mean,
close to, I think, being
my all better, I don't know you, don't it's hard to know what the covert situation my tests
are looking good, there's pride.
Rest being made. I will test again this week and hope we get it
tomorrow. Actually, maybe today today our test again
maybe get Thea the full neg we'll see what
see, but there I am through the worst of it. I do believe Tony
commissioner is on the show ISA,
it's kind of a genius, a wizard and into
back in an artist is deeply
What's your prize winning playwright of angels in America, the musical, Caroline or change and a freak.
when collaborated with Steven Spielberg. Writing the screen place for Munich, Lincoln and now. West side story is also the
husband of Mark Harris. The film
historian guy add on your real good talk and I asked Mark is:
I said, is tony in the other room. He said here and now we talk
We talked a little bit about mark this time. Any anyways there's a very,
rolling interview, a very good interview. I was as nervous
you I always do I'd, never know if I can, if I can hang with these
intellectual heavyweights, but am a big fan of a lot
his work, and it was,
it was a great conversation. That's coming up
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I've been trying to
figure out a way that me
in gear modelled Toro can hang out again on the pike, ass injustice, just talk about shit, so
there may be, I would die. I would ask him:
because I'm not a horror movie guy. I dont I just
I don't like thrillers, I don't like suspense, I don't like horror,
I get bored I get frustrated or get disturbed. It doesn't
It doesn't seem to work for me like it works for people who, like it. Ok, I dont frustrated anxious d,
curbed. I dont need those
I don't need that from my entertainment. I really don't.
and that's what people
we'll see our health primarily entertainment right. I know,
art, horror, movies, I get it
but I dont need those those elements you know frustrated anxious disturbed.
I dont I've gotta go on now that that's,
by baseline. That's all
I guess, maybe for some people, horror,
slasher movies or ah yes, black
horror, all that stuff maybe has a riddle in effect for some people, maybe the horror
on the screen. So
diminishes or or org, or
dampens or tempers thee.
He had the feeling that I have, but it doesnt have. That effect with me
the arches movie last night, the last one
the three that I was assigned by air guy
Irma Kill list and by the time dynamic who is over. I couldn't sleep and I was terrified
keep a minor workout. Is it
I think it triggers the proper response. I don't have the correct sense of humour around horror or the correct appreciation of the genre, or necessarily the ability to
separate myself from the
screen as being a reality of some kind.
Is virtually that one because it sort of grounded in a disturbing reality. You don't you, don't know right away that you're dealing
with this the ether.
Are we traditional horror movie ending, but the other
stuff you have me watch I watched action.
she's, a nineteen twenty two, a movie
that's why I think it's danish, for which
and it's like half documentary, half
sort of cinematic exploration of medieval witchcraft, inquisition, witchcraft, how which is are treated, and then it comes into the current time being nineteen twenty two about how mentally
Ill people are treated and in the past they would have been, which is now they're institutionalize, which is you're not great either. It was interesting movie and the composition and the narrative storytelling within the black and white stuff,
the silent movie stuff was amazing, an apparently there's a nineteen,
sixty eight version of it.
That was an narrated by though boroughs who I love, but
I was happy, I saw that
The other one I watched was.
Barbarian, sound studio, which is
a movie about a guy, a british guy who takes a job as the sound mixer
or an italian horror movie, and then it just gets weird at the end, at some sort of psychological thriller that takes
during the making or
basically the sound at it
when italian, our movie, I guess like
gentle movie, but I don't know any of those movies and I think that this move you just stay,
you needed. That is an index as a point of reference. You needed to be somewhat
an italian horror, nerd or
Argento a nerd so,
no that's enough, and I found it a little too
he s a mortal boring and I don't like movies generally
at the end of a mere I did he die. What happened? What did
was he in the movie as or was the movie the one I was watching? Was
the movie or was it the movie that he was in? Did he did
Did he raised his mind and thank you is in the movie. Did he die? What happened.
That's not a great you and me it's better than being terrified, but it is
but frustrating I can handle it,
from an art movie. I can handle it, but I feel, like I missed.
if so that movie so anyways, my
my foray into horror as made me realize three things. I think that in time,
can appreciate it, but I do not
enjoy what it does to me. Ok, frustrated, anxious, disturbed, I'm
I'm I'm on top of that. I'm already doing that.
only more that. Ok,
and if you give me a lot more of it, it's not gonna make mine feel any less immediate.
so you make it feel any less there.
Yours I'm saying, do you imagine your
a maker shooting a comedy about the end of the world and all around you. If you like, the world is really ending, that's
story of the last movie ever made the official podcast
about the making of dont look up the new film on Netflix. This is a behind the scenes. Look at what happened when Adam Mackay brought hundred
of casting crew to Boston, to make a movie in the middle of a pandemic, and when the casting goods people like Leonardo, Dicaprio Jennifer Lawrence Male Streep attire
we're Perry, Jonah Hill and
planchet, you might have some interesting things going on when the cameras aren't rolling by day they were making a satire about societal collapse by night. They were isolated in hotel rooms, watching the nightly news and wondering if our actual society might collapse and all the while they were recording their reactions in real time. Ok, I
what it's like to be alone in a hotel room recording my thoughts were a gas eve heard me: do it a lot
now you're here what it's like for these talented actors and filmmakers to create a story about one crisis while living through another. It's the
ass movie ever made out now wherever you get your pod casts so tony
There is a, as I said earlier, a pure surprise, winning playwright angels in America. Both parts were masterpieces
amazing experiences theatrically from
I think I saw the original cast
in angels in Amerika, I believe,
It was at run, led men,
as a right com. I think I did see that it was eight
it changes your life in your mind forever
I did see his musical Caroline
and her change? When I was in the city,
and I loved it, but he's here
impressive thinkers, very impressive artist and very specific type
large play. Writing writing in general. I believe- and if you think
but the movies Eddie did Would Spielberg Munich link
now westside story
The dialogues amazing, the storytelling is amazing and Munich's amazing and their draw a fucking amazing,
this guy's a euros, a heavyweight he's
the real deal and he's a great thinker and he no stuff
and I d- I don't- I know a few things-
Sometimes, when I don't know things
I say I dont know them
There's nothing wrong with saying I don't know, but you don't wanna necessarily you know
the rough somebody to get a lesson about something
you should try just do on your own later, but what tony
I dont know what Brecht in really implies. I know Bertold Brecht, I don't,
conscious memory or understanding of many of his plays. I may be of seem one back in college, but when
something's Brecht in I know it means something. So I asked I asked ass more than that
but it was really a great debt,
The great privilege should talk to Tony. We did this by zoom for one
I had covered for two,
he's in New York
but I did watch both Westside stories back to back and you know what
they're. Both amazing, I don't remember seeing the first one I must have seen when I was a little kid, because I knew a lot of the songs by their,
the West Side story that Tony wrote a forest
been spilled. Burg is playing in theatres, he's been nominated, very writers, guilt of America Award for best adapted screenplay, and we talk about all of it. You have the whole thing. The tony questioner think are here: we got
so Johnny watch it what's happening way. What's going on New York, what's happening right now
work! Specifically my colleagues cool. It's more crime numbers are going down there going up in my house. I have it right now. I am really yes, I'm sorry your day, I think
Ok, I mean I I've been a will.
stop being a little tired and I had to cancel some dates, but
but I'm not Europe triple vaccine.
and you're full of terror, and that's you
given native baby, I'm ok, I'm
I'll be happy one. It's out of me. Yes,
And I don't think you should be full of terror, dancing the really be apt to marry me.
kind of goes. It makes your head stepped up and then it goes away. Did you get it? I'm not guarded
we have avoided because we don't go anywhere. We stay in our programme.
basically all day long and we don't have
kids, and we here
where we were antisocial before the pandemic started. So earth ran, like a literal heyday, for
for you in some ways. Yes, the way. What have you found
has evolved over the last two and a half years in
relationship because of the pandemic. I think it's actually been good for our relationship
We were bundles in pretty bleak, terrible play,
when it started as everybody was, and there was no
there were so many gave apocalyptic warnings about what happened in New York
did get there. It got pretty close
the way we got very bad, but there was you know in the weeks before it actually
I broke out. There were now people saying that the whole social fabric disintegrated, bewildered, murdering people on the streets there toilet paper, really
let's be tat
mark who doesn't really like grocery shop, went out the way,
before and came home with, like AIDS shopping bags full of meat. The Austrian.
neither jam into our freezer, because our got convinced that there will be no more meat, the
I think everybody got convinced that there would be no more something and they did everything they could to get it and ensure that, if possible,
Like a moment where there are no food, that of Japan,
It was crazy, do having meetings and then a great nets.
I got concerned about the about
A six I found myself buying a ten pound bag of key moi,
I just saw myself eating some sort of keen while much for the duration.
You could probably get by on king. That's what I thought
I realise that we were. We were like reading out at first. We we have a house province. Town will lead
My sister and we fled
province down at the sound of the prison,
three weeks there and then is that we want to come back in New York. I feel good
if only him, because he gets
arrests and also has a kind of a darker worldview than I do and expects terrible examined so
he was ready for this before almost anybody else was
and then I got one of the reasons we didn't get one of the more severe forms of this
I finally just surrendered to his very strict protocols. Civilians.
I married the right I had not yet again, I know we feel I ve gotten ourselves through
this together and you know it's not the blitz. It's not it's not
but it was. It has been a tough thing, but that's interesting that you have these these two different ways of looking at the world. I I will wait
Do you think that is
cause I'm more like mark you like I,
what kind of ready cause I'm here, I'm dreading everything anyways!
so when, when it's time do activate, especially yes,
something that so rooted in anxiety? You I'm ready to go beyond my yeah, I'm on top of the eye MIKE. I don't have any paper towels, I'm gonna buy thousand dish rags and would, but
but you. What are you able to find hope, get an end on a day to day basis or what? I think, I'm a little bit more optimistic than is either we're gonna balance each other out. I mean even debt.
Very quickly convinced that that we are completely and totally screwed.
I don't like a vital factor should really fast and I
it can not. The denial is, but I I I
kind of failed.
Where's, the sort of optimism and- and I feel like things,
we tend to go here rather the opposite so eyes believe it will be as bad as as mark
I think that will be, but I
Meyer people I'd market. You listen better than I was doing research here a few years ago, a project,
was the parity, the italian history and the research, a mental and the middle of the nineteenth century, and I
the two I was in Seattle,
and I was me without a jewish woman, there is real, ran the Sierra synagogue, perfect
we had left right before
Mussolini started rounding up italian Jews, and I said you know what. Why are you doing here that inside and she said he was an incredible depressing? The clinically depressed
he took a train ride back from Germany with the Nazi, and
came home and said
got everything we're getting out of here. Ok,
say I suppose it is a good thing to have that I too, so I wonder why
I say it's time for us to leave then sweating. Sixteen couple out a couple of those you know should really very we don't have much money maturing. Putting that we have a swiss bank
will we be able to get out quickly enough can weigh Nelson.
In Strasbourg give us now
Bertha his yacht, I mean you know, is there a way to get it to get out of here?
Mr Varela. He hasn't sounded that particular alarmed that we have to get in the car and got a Canada, but now can you guys get into Canada he's not canadian is he.
I don't know, I always assume they the canoe. Maybe we can. I watch the image answer much further than we can get across the border. In what I mean, I don't think any of us. It's tried, nor have we needed to try to get refugee status so lonely
like I imagine that will be the shift in Border PA.
I see as if you show up
You all your vaccines or proof of how
he had covered and a refugee
and then just like it at all those breakfast.
The sitting on the border waiting for some
asshole to decide whether you're going to get over the border or whether you have to either kill yourself. It's it's! It's scary. My brother is a musician Indiana.
and his orchestra, the Vienna for Symphonic, or plays
during the summer and burdens ay and this big opera.
Ass. They were called the brigands her face
we may have to pay to get from today.
opera house here.
To cross the border crossing in Switzerland and its them
border crossing where all these austrian Jews try did. You know get out.
Through which all these Austrian just try to get out of here after the Angeles
and so he said, he's called me a few times during the dark about into the Trump presidency and said: are you sure you don't want to come open up a bank account Vienna? I mean wow,
I mean there have been moments when you get nowhere,
I know, unlike I'm like Ireland, Unthinking Ireland like I'm a Jew and I've got some sort of weird connection emotionally to Ireland for fried reasons. I dont understand- and I
I fantasize about it. You know, but
I try to I try to kind of rule
guys it's a fantasy, and I don't know that if I got an if I go to Ireland that they're going to die,
God you're here. You know
Finally, I am sure they will give you the money. I get this more rights, but only when Leopold bloom yeah. What am I going to do there?
the irish jewish joke yeah,
This ensures guys is.
it during the troubles, and he has to go across the border from the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
He is nervous if he gets into the borderline and it gets a deficient
thing then striving and some-
these guys with
like llamas, has come out of the red was shot guns, they stop his car and they
the rap on the window. He rose on the window, you guys are protestant or a Catholic.
the guy says I'm jewish
Men have again this year, but I
a protestant you're, a catholic good question: yeah, that's funny:
so I I'm just I'm I'm still panicky. I don't. I can't get it. I can't get it
sense of what the world is really like from my phone and my
life is ok, but you know when
you can catch two eyes it or how big you make it in your mind or water,
represents, is very tricky to figure out what,
Jack, what is happening there,
I'm gonna, wherever we enter
the third year of this.
It may be really. Roma crime is a sort of the.
the thing that brings us to some kind of conclusion.
I do think that there are reasons to believe
It has caused a tremendous amount over
tearing of the social fabric and there is some reason to believe that if it did, it doesn't get.
Why does it refer to some degree of normal saying to people can't congregate?
resume ordinary non digital relationships here,
I mean things have already gone very weird and I think they're gonna get weirder. It is it's scary time and then
what's happening in this country is terrifying zone. So when you now we're on a day to day basis, how do you sort of what?
Who do I mean to you? Do you
making the news has any of this like here with with
with covered him with what you do.
The sad and sort of being in this moment design
Spire you at all
you mean the bad stuff here creatively creatively
What is really bad? No, I mean at least not in the immediate moment. I'm not you who can
taken in terrible terrible. You know
really terrible new cycle and immediately process
in some way the hum,
tried, pay attention and I try and take notes and I try to keep track of
however, the reality is coming to me through
jobs with my disorder,
fantasies about how reality I wanna go in my heretical understanding of history and reality I mean
that's a kind of a back and forth process at the dialectic and eventually will result in a word
When I, when I write something
for the most part,
I am drawing the subjects that you know feel like their of significance, because they involve sir agonizing questions that I know the answers to write and very often political questions here am, I have always been in awe of people like Larry Kramer, who are in the middle of the AIDS epidemic when things were really comply, mean
the is horrible and terrifying it its global, which is a whole other, but it's not
lethal in the way that mean even delta and the first one now four years because of you
like the same death sentences? Aids felt
in there in the early years, where, if you're a gay man you had sex with new,
resort of sitting around wondering if revision number was up and of your began in six weeks, an antenna really horrible horrible way in the middle of all that Larry, somehow
what is rages, anger at his frustration having just been fired, like arrogance, I've crises and he turned into the normal heart, and I knew I was very coastal area for a long time, and I I still am-
Mr Hallam, I was possible. Let her know how people how he found me the will
the well, but also the clarity I mean you know it:
heart is, is a beautiful place. The power play like a pretty inside
size of analysis like what
friends to power,
our structures and also convinced,
no prejudices when there
in with a catastrophe, I mean it.
Billy, disaffected kind of beautifully the different characters. I mean it's the way that your people react to
this horrific news,
this revenue reality, the tracing,
That is its it's done so beautifully and with such incredible
stay, and now how unsparing truth- and you know
it's your uncle terms. Capital is, may I gotta be their people to do that in its astonishing when they do most sort of what it seems like a temple, it would be very effective. You know
as as a means to to
gone, even what we ve been through over over the last six years.
Absolutely I mean it
For me, I need a little bit more perspective by these little designs.
I started: writing it. Doesn't America around eighty seven? How old are you
thirty two and I started working now,
Ok, so you decide to take that on wagon, in your
between the vision that you had was was
who s personal than Larry's? I guess correct
was a few years into the
a primary right now easy. It arrived already right,
Things were a little bed, warm, not good by any means, but there were tests. There is easy to things. Had you ve that terror
The thing at the beginning, in the early eighties, where are you
I read your first lesion and then you were dead and fuel.
I go there.
That is the sort of begun to stop. When I be
think about writing angels and by the time I finish in the ninety ninety we were already.
Pretty well on our way to the triple cocktail and
real transformation. The way the diseases manage. So in terms you your creative process. What do you see? You know what needs to happen between sorted
you and Larry, not as individuals, but in his approach in your approach, what
way out of the picture come into force,
as for you did you need, did you need?
your brain needed to create these characters of these. You know that
its articles that were returned, the differences remain mark, although he had not. I think the difference between us as far as writers was a huge difference.
men, Virginia wolves, room of one's own. She talks
enviously, shut up,
Roger sisters I again Jane Austen, then Shakespeare is, I think, maybe misquoted your, but I think that what she said about Austin as it does this kind of
It is a rage in the novels,
Emily draw the brandy
and then Jane Austen work of issues as his miraculous peace and seems to have been written without any anger. At all events, it is that
Actually, maybe one of the things that Shakespeare, the nation, the greatest of all it is.
It's written without anger,.
I have a lot of anger, but I don't know that I find the anger and enormously useful tool.
In writing. Plays Larry was
an angry artist? I mean my remit and could be
rightfully could be very sweet? He could be very funny. I talked to him once I talk to I D. I, when I was at our America
you know when he he wasn't it.
Or an evil. Eve is all I can remember when that was before two thousand and three.
yes, and it was great
is a great afternoon
I don't know I mean he was. He was amazing, a great stories it. It was for that
today's gay man or today's the tragedy of today's gaze. Yes, that's where we're where, without my permission, each other email that I have written to him. Oh
and uses the blurb in the back of the book no kidding.
it? Is you ever do there? All the time you could never ride to Larry with any
certainly that what you're writing was private. It would almost certainly than at any if you guys are like propagandistic,
Proselytizing value he
Where does he would use it? And men
he lives life in a very public ways: Vienna, the odd familiar
with it. I think, on that kind of you, myself,
the angry guy, but so
you weren't at some point that anger was not a good tool for you cause like one
Where did you get your chops? I mean wait. How do you? When did you start working out as a playwright?
I think, I'll write you grab in Louisiana came to New York is gonna, Colombia's undergrad and yeah. I e the minute I got here should sing. Every play I could see was everything you grew up wanting to do I mean yeah, my mother, my parents for professional musicians and what kind of music
my father is a joy training. Clarinet rest.
and my mother was these Eastman train the soonest shit
She was very successful. She was first Paseo New York City opera when she was very young
women in the country of Origin Principle Chair and recorded Mr Vinci
on two occasions and she yeah sure
great the soonest, my father was a really wonderful. Clarinet is, but
misfortune of being the major Stanley Drucker. So in Stanley, Drucker was emerging as the world's greatest greatest clarinetist. He was taking all the jobs in New York,
my father wasn't getting enough work. Sir
oh, my sister has a year and a half older than I was.
Deaf and my parents freak out
a little better Jake and my father decided that he would move the family down. Louisiana were
Our family had a lumber business and
We grew up in Louisiana and then
in the lumber business lumber in a lot of Jews in the lumber business in Louisiana sets are weird. But transferring have you d have you sort of
DNA, a kind of personal history. Do I heard of the Jews get a Louisiana
you gotTa Louisiana through the rag trade. I think I'm in the other two ways. One was a derived in New York and got a big bag of.
Crash rags incidents pedal on it are possible,
and then all along the way there the said what they call the southern crescent
then one of them would fall
a congenial town
eventually get a little department store and return to a big department store, so I made on blush in New Orleans.
mothers, Niemann markets in Houston and all the way through the south. There are these big department chains overrun by owned by Jews, who had started out as a rag peddlers
how did they arrive in Louisiana? That way also, they came to gather some, the Galveston
taxes, which is near where I grew up
I've been told of his true that
the polish aristocracy, which really severely limited what use are allowed to do. The opposite
eighty the nineteenth century. Sixteen, seventy eight centrist, you can make
vodka you could be.
Taylor of some. You lend money, of course, and I am supposedly they allow Jews, Tamil lumber, ah
and I found a couple references in polish literature from the turn of the century.
jewish lumber mill,
Two things are always either is either banking or lumber banking vodka used to attributed any polish city. You could find a bottle of logical shit: vodka, yeah yeah
I've got had decided to submit caricature, rejoined on the label and it was
many calls will tell you how this is to do when they reduce here they used to make the best part get. So
like all the Swedes Kennedy work and then they went to Minnesota, causes a mandate that was great dairy country. I mean people some places,
replicate. What they come from
so maybe they're like pine forests, maybe do
before a big
lumber businesses in Louisiana. There were founded ledgers families and are very
very tiny one that was started by my family, which no longer exists, but I thought
interesting now because, like you know that the film business to us all, we junk men, a rag mandibular there, it's a very vague title and you can get a sense of it. But how do you
junk men and Ragman Ultimate Open all the department stores and create Hollywood.
It's kind of thing.
The first is determination and intelligence and yeah two meeting. So I tell you grew up in lumber, but was your dad a bitter manner now
Oh, he wasn't like me. I think I got my fatal optimism from her. Fatally stopped the emigrant gineral here. Do you never
the clarinet and then about ten years.
How to remove down there.
like Charles. He was up
a job conducting a symphony in Alexandria, Louisiana and anything
It's true calling. I think he was really a conductor. He conducted both the Algerian, like electrons symphonies and he was Grey
here the job they were really wonderful or district Zander I met him
First Bassoon worried Arab League life.
in our day they just stayed in the lumber business and play music,
He means we waited a lumber business.
numbers and came home. You really care about it at all. Then I think he was relieved when finally could just walk away from it. The black family- and I trust that had been,
The foreman, my great grandfathers company way out of the lumber company and in the form of my grandfather s company were again.
Father and son of a blackened
because the broad family and then their son,
where's. My father's foreman and my father eventually
all the lumber business to him, and it became Krishna, Gerard Lumber Business and then,
I can remember which hurricane it was now wasn't. Katrina is good
I think so,
Charles and destroyed the member business ethics.
a classic american tail yeah.
Its anywhere, but I'd have become the poster child
globally fervour climate change. It saves it keeps getting hit by one,
super storm after another client is having a terribly hard time. You can
you can ensure proper young early morning. Every move down there, still
no, my father died. You doesn't proud,
I have a few friends. Her head
Then there is still there and struggling through, but it's
around like Charles is one of my favorite tell who send away I'm song yeah she's Murat whenever a star, oh, what a song.
so ok see you eve. You get out of Louisiana, gotTa Colombia and he starches taking in theatre virus
Let's give reason I may, when television is because when, when my parents got their mother Kadijah very soon
had she. She had a very
large, creative. So and she does
german actor that saving when my fascinated with theatre. Ah, how to do it out of us right?
I loved her and I loved watching your onstage and she was.
Jeanne, the local
little theatre, communicator and
I fell in love with the euro because of seeing her
play Linda alone, and the salesman would be great thanks
I thought you were right. I really remember
death of salesman
I was six years old and I remember it really vividly
it s a brutal play too. It is, and I had no idea what was going on your plays Willie Romans chippy below
the hotel room, the owl Biff Maids, Briefly Robin
the young woman who is playing their part had slept in
broken her arm, so she had her arm in a cast an eye to eye
That's why everybody in the play was so upset. I didn't know that Willie had died or anything. I thought they were really freaked out that she had broken her arm, but-
a child's interpretation, very letter like it isn't I do they did it in the round,
and so I could see the adults on the other side.
and when my mother came out into the sea,
by the graveyard you no attention
foolish man? Why did you do
I could see all the people on the opposite side of the people that I knew the
it was the early sixties- suddenly had they never make up and everybody raccoon. I just like sobbing
that made an impression. I knew something I don't know what it was
it was doing something to these people. That was pretty
extraordinary and powerful. When I got
turned on banana. Did I was it yeah that was it a roomful of running mascara weeping, women with threats
when you're coming up in New York, I mean who like who the play
rights act like you found
and were modeling your ear. Your perception
I you arriving a really good moment. I came to Colombia. Imagine seventy four ended.
Was. I think this is an extraordinary
credibly, brilliant. On guard.
theatre artists, it's when Robber Wilson Letter the Queen Victoria and I sat on the beach with Philip glass.
What was the matter: Broadway Theatre, Richard Foreman Joanna, collided, the theatre group, mobile mines with Labour Joanna Gladys performance.
Elizabeth, your comp,
Spalding gray and knew how flow.
They became a movie star.
a whole bunch of other people who were just doing absolutely my
and I think that's where I was first,
drawn. I was very political care and I was not sure the theater was a dignified,
I'd profession, for somebody really wanted to
Colombia, because I wanted you know, I have been observed,
Preston's, since nineteen sixty eight with those pictures of his students taking over the presidency-
the library and everything- and I that's what I thought I was coming to wasn't like that by one thousand nine hundred and seventy four
but I was, I think,
apprehensive about life in the arts and in therapies. It seems a trivial
and when you that's interesting, though, if I can stop you at it, because at some point
You didn't have any romanticists asian of like the people's theatre or anything of the Socialists theatre
I guess it would be the authorities at there that there was a relevance at that that could
of impact. You never thought that really is
it's a complicated question because I you know I
in there they had an hadn't had it impact. I feel, and I think that I was reading
you know governor debts. Were the group theater? I mean AIDS radicalized, they revolutionise theatre later, when I log
a big problem with governor debts plays, and when I heard you say that, but what is the problem?
I don't think you're very good. I feel I should say that I feel bad saying boy like heavy handed
heavy handed and not you know
If you agree, I figure if you're gonna write
politics. Your politics have to be really really good after. We have to really think through you doing his analysis,
I, like the others around allegorical in places where political leaders should never be allegory colony. Where metaphor,
There's something I mean you know. Did he traced?
economic processes through
doctor who was also a world class violinist.
It's like. Ok, I get it, but it's a little you once you figure out what was opposed to. There was opposed to let's identify salesman witches,
shatteringly grade bigger
is applied. It is absolutely about economics, but worry what Miller did was to find.
you know a circumstance there were sitting out there for everybody to see a salesman is about two billion electro cause he's not use any more.
And and- and he exposes, the savagery cruelty
A working people are treated in the way that we are all tree of the way they were victimized by this artificial
The system that we have created an
salesman touches on many many other, really fascinating,
political economic questions, but he does it.
by being absolutely true to what he's writing about
I mean you know
It's over the rugged, their Jews and they seem to have come from the West to New York. That's the end
This lightly I'd yeah. I think you know why you didn't get to that other that one I just saw before the covert I saw the air was view
from the bridge, we're in the ridge, my guys, so my God, which I thought I would last Tracy. Let's was in it right right before the plague and
its devastating. Oh it's still.
Astonishing in its its.
There is one place where either really digs into
issues where the military political also
actual in a way that ensures a really scary stuff. I love
If the bridge, I think it's coming
when he decided it, was time to write down the salesman heap
took his last metal
what's a lumber, he had purchased a little from writing tv things that he prejudice.
Europe is a land of Connecticut and he
the little house
and then went into the house and road death salesman. Ananus! That's the way
about Arthur Miller. Is
he was also I mean he was
great writer and just as a playwright,
rectangular craftsman, I mean yeah, I'm almost all of his plays them
did they start, you know you're in great hands. You know that you, you know you just know not so much
with Clifford Odette Rider so so Miller
had a big effect on you, the not at nine. Initially I mean he did when I was a kid. I got it all those guys. You were talking about four men and Wilson, and you know I
seen those plays I've, seen, form and stuff, and I've seen your summit.
exporting gray stuff, I mean yeah, I guess
when you're younger and you see that's, doesn't make you realize it. There's no, no real
You really decide your own limitations
yeah and Adam I mean
one of those people worked.
credibly dromedary way in relationship to forms that had gone before them will mean that there are no longer
who plays its part in gray? Did what was the camp where
it's. One was based on greater.
arrogant nor days journey denied, or you know, a steady. They had direct reference to speak
big words that America veterans balding,
has presented himself as just a new.
You're a doctor
I love Miller. I think the first person
playwright. I drive
Fellow members, I read him in a modern drama. Classical a beer was drawn glare
around the house of lives. I can another guy. A little bit about round is any yes, he is, and these are very, very great pleasure.
one of one of our best,
Amen, Tennessee Williams came next
I think Eugene O Neill and then Arthur Miller, my big
obsession during my chronology ears and, to some extent, I'd still say exist
Extra, probably the playwright, I haven't
people still binding effect for his brutal Brac Johnny. I just got enough
understand him or know exactly what characterizes brecht in things?
at some point? We should blood- you really revenant. I've done that now that I'd love to talk to you. He takes the fundamental truth of the theatre, which is by the way and everything that Shakespeare does. That
that you're, confronted with the invaders power is
It is bad at making illusions. So your ear gear.
here. We are watching something that isn't
Billy believable at the end of hamlet, everybody's dead, on the
judge for two of them at least, had soared fight. So there
but if it's a great production hamlet,
your kind of an island at the end right most ended
that double Miss
complete investment in reality that you know to be artificial.
is critical consciousness. It's! What is what
marks is writing about it.
But how do you see beneath the apparent surfaces things
What really lies beneath
marxist programming, Freud, would say it's
workings of the unconscious right marked with aids. It's it's the relations of capital. It sets itself relations,
Human relations that have gone to produce commodity forms, Ryan,
and what Brecht is all about is
I mean it's basically just a very great playwright, but he.
His theatre is about sort of
privilege, saying that moment have both
even disbelief, so that you're always
You know you're in it in your out.
in timing, I always say
like a great example of it is just jack. Nicholson's entire film courier behalf
he I just saw this out. Take I've never seen for on line from the shining where everyone is getting ready to do the same, raised.
Breaking through the door, the ass
He's got a days are running around senator according to become what you do. Rallies
and medicine is behind them. Looking complete,
the guy is maritime area, and then he reaches every picks up his huge acts.
swaying in their home ducking while they tried to get the said ready for the shot
Shelly divulges. I watched her Rowan arise again rejected it.
and he looks completely nuts. But
the thing that made himself makes him so incredibly great
He has his weird ability,
He's always ended and out of it at the same time is always result
The commenting on rohingya interesting? He needs how an actor does that there are some actors,
that really do some people lose go away completely and apply to many actors really that do it. No, no, but I think I think, a lot of musical theatre performers. I have, I never got sure on stage
I saw zero, my style briefly
I do have one do when old revival of similar
nobody ever murmured on Wednesday,
listen to her recordings. She has that we think is necessary as a musical theatre star in a way tat lawyer, you know, there's a formalism there's an artificiality here.
I saw your musical. I saw Caroline or change. Oh great here was
great. I enjoyed it a lot, I you know aid, but that that sort of like it seemed very personal thing. It's it's him
because you do an autobiographical thing.
Its dedicated to the woman that,
Her name is morally David, she's still alive, Schiller's later ass, an
Workers are made, for my family has little kid, I'm all the way to I left for college and that should continue to work
her father died and
she's retired now, but she am dedicated way to her because Carolinas Leslie modeled on earlier documentary charter things. But there are certain things that happened in the planet.
Happened to me I d body, so yeah
it's very personal did she say
Yes, she did I, when I finished riding it I was nervous about. It
so I sent it to her.
sort of wasn't sure that you never read a play before
When I called her and his money and sending you this thing and I'd like you to read it
sort of it's not about you, but it's loosely based on you and I want to delegated you, but she certainly that's a nice to know my garden said- will send it.
so I said it and she immediately send it to her daughter, Caroline
Carolyn ready for her
I have been called her and said. It very gets very touching him Carolyn really liked it
so then more? He said
and she was honoured and pleased
And then, when it was opening at the public theater,
I flew hurrying Caroline to New York in
I was terrified tell you begin to play the part of created the role here when China had her wig honour nineteen sixty? Is she really looked right? Mahdi yeah
now as a deliberate. It just happened to be there
little bit alike here I thought, oh, my god, where she's really up to, because it
I made this casual. Like I remember Maudie she was. She was different from a lot of the other african american women who work has made they put on this in a friendly manner
because you had to her how she didn't really do that. She asked
A kind of a tough.
and often very angry person and done for that.
I was fascinated by that. Then I wrote her that way.
after we issue she cried and she really loved him at the castle.
Kept going back to my place, and
She was in the middle and I was on one side. Count was on the other side. Is it's a wonder? What did you think of them? She talked about the past.
A budget at any rate, the character as a regime Carol
I trust you will do anything for kids and I like that and as of right said, the do you know
what other angry stuff. Do you think this is that fair? You feel like that, has any relation to the way we use today before you turn is very sweet, lady and
what does it have? No? No! I was never like God. I was never angry like that.
He could see. On the other side. Caroline was looking good,
We chose the musical to do that too.
to explore yourself like that. Yet I was one of the first when I was
sophomore in college. I decided.
Maybe I wanna be a playwright,
you didn't want to own it, but I began to get interested me idea and I re I keep a journal on item. I don't know if I can come up with thirteen ideas for plays in one hour. Twelve ideas replies in one hour.
I think maybe I can be a playwright, so I came to the prom ideas.
I don't want anything elsewhere, but one of them whether really short little paragraph eleven was
Melvin American women, who works as a made in the deep
Tat in some way is also president of the United States
that's the only around that stuff.
it with me and said
this guy opera hired Bobby Macfarlane to do
that's right it to compose an opera, and he asked me if I do the libretto and I
Caroline for that and then Bobby decide even want to write an opera he D played around.
but the very decided was a jazz musician and opera composer hope that body Mcferrin
Yeah and I am sorry she gave me the rights to the libretto back and then I went to George wilful. We went Janine disorient them
because my parents were musicians.
Something I didn't think. I really wanted to.
and I wanted they say. The Genesee Williams really made life harbour himself by starting.
His career by writing. Glass, menagerie yeah,
only awaited you're, practically the end of his career? I long days journey, but
Something really by autobiographical, always seemed scary to me round
maybe there's gonna be a musical, and my parents were musicians. Parents are musicians, it would be the right moment to dig. You haven't
so, like you know you when you think about you, know o Neil,
I guess it doesn't sound like you, like you're gonna, go down a tunnel of darkness, for you know how
work is gonna get for you.
I wish I could get the dark Berlin yeah you he was
but I mean autobiographical speaking- maybe they always I'm glad I didn't have his family and you're visited the house if you're not
if you give your ever on, I ninety five between New York and through Connecticut here
the New London Canada is the Monte Cristo cottages forgotten?
his father, who is an enormously successful actor barred and its effects.
Origin with slanders journey,
seven nineteen trial, while Yeager its
a national, historic
registry Lana its run by the parks to
but it's really weird, because it's it's not like
some sort of big mountain range or something irrefutable forest. Is this
terrifying house for people. You know each other basically
one of the weirdest man landmarks, the absolutely where the visit
then you can just the minute. You go in the unhappy
This is still there. I mean it's just that you can feel in the wood. We really can it's spooky around my guys
the whole journey of of angels for you, we want an too I mean that was why come how long a period of your life I could decade,
yeah. I started eighty seven. I finish part one around eighty, eighty nine. It happened at the National in London and ninety ninety I heard,
already written a very rough draft of the second part,
first private. Eventually, when it came to enter the market and firm and energy into Broadway by now
ninety three and ninety four perestroika, open and then international tour? When
I'm sorry I was about eight or nine years, and that was done
but that was your like the the first big plan,
and it was huge and it's like eternal. There is huge
and is never it's always gonna be huge
I'm gonna her. All I care is it. It me
after that, it's over there and when you, when you put that together, I mean, were you able to see you know like when you talk about like a thoroughness of
of character or being true to too you know,
who they are and what is happening in the play like an idiot
he's like you know. When the angel comes down that spectacular, though
something enabled you they are due to sort of way.
Conceive of that
I had a dream. It was a dream how it started first,
die than I had known personally to die of. I was doing
year, residency in Saint Louis, on a national and honour the earth's fellowship in directing, and
I got were that this dancer named bill. I'm gonna graduate.
just died and I
the sad about. Then I went to bed at night and I had a dream that he was in his
pajamas on his bed and looking
terrified up at the ceiling which stood a pouch
cracked open an angel,
the room and laugh
and this is where there there was amazing right. I didn't know that I'm sure you that's out there did know by, because that moment
then the showers, I doubt, if just overwhelm I write that was supposed to be the intermission three hour to hour during our play. You didn't
have getting longer, I feel like
We all contain multitudes assurance of one of the things that you,
try to do as a writer is loosen the state
the internal stays that that hold you together as a person just enough so that stuff, that
would merely in everyday waking life you will die.
Keep securely locked away
you gonna loosen the hinges on the door a little bed and things are at eyes.
Come out and I think it right to look at it. So when you
like the one thing I like all in our thinking about, like I watched your website story in Spielberg'S-
and then, like you know, an hour later, I watched the other one like so
I was able to really kind of see them both like that. You know to seek, is Adam remembered. The original I think I saw when I was a kid and you know
like, I want to see what what state and what went and why you know what was different. You know, and they both are, are pretty spectacular.
Beyond their own right, so
When you take a when, when when Steven Spielberg asks you to do this, as he's asked you to do other movies, with him
I don't know, I assume they were different, but I what's the first
Can you do in terms of like our you going to reboot this thing? What do you think
Can I get you say to yourself like will look the race issue? Is there but the clashes? The class issues Unexplored
well in zones, and that is where a Stephen started under the first. I said why do you want to do this because we both love the sixty one felt very much
and I said why do you want to do it? And he said you know a few things he's interested in the fact that the cameras are so much more.
mobile. Now your move around in a technical stuff beggary does that
I mean that things have been really gets even excited.
He wanted to approach. You do a music. I always wanted to do a musical at its argue, with the greatest musical
but he also said you know I I feel like these are strong,
The kids in they're, very poor, sorry, we began talking about poverty and poverty is beings. Kind of
along with racism, xenophobia poverty is is, is the overarching
met a villain of the tragic NEA and that led me to start researching the area that these as a writing about where I live right now Lincoln Square was called Lincoln S going. I guess it like, isn't it a robber Moses Development
yeah. That was right. Fifty seven Moses in the Committee for slum clearance
one to Supreme Court cases in any
as to the away a gigantic
part of the West side,
part of it was a real slum
has primarily inhabited by now,
earlier generations of european immigrants, any comments,
there are mentally
challenged and the criminal element drug addicts are will behind and they were living in these kind of derelict, brownstones
top of the Lincoln Square was
called San Juan Hill, not because inherited had anything to do with, but
it been we're here for a long time. I think I finally you gonna live, but that's not a story. Why? I can't prove this, but,
People don't know where the name came from. It was an
african american neighbourhood, from about them
into the forties and then went levels removing after Harlem Dead, began renting these
There are probably going down to poorer regions
we're just arriving in the thirties and for his and
but they'd always called a genuine hill
and I have no way of proving his bud.
the rough riders when they rode up San Juan Hill, which is in Cuba,
is one part of the story- the I forgot the name of the hill next to San Juan Hill, but there was another hell held on Spanish than at Ford on it. There was
tackling San Juan Hill and the fortress about it will.
Further refers really get up the hill, they had the first summit,
I had to take the
joining hill and then now you deserve neutralised.
the fort and the people,
who did that there are a couple
The garrison in June, but one of them was an all black,
U S army,
Infantry, Squadron and nay,
storm the fortress and took their hill they requested.
completely Redman of history right, not rough riders and Teddy Roosevelt you're all white charge,
yet TAT Hill but the
People have made it possible for forgotten, and I can't,
by approving this. But I really wonder because the timing seems to work out if the veteran
from the army veterans, who felt themselves to have been great American here, as they were, forgotten, decided to name this neighbour they're moving into a baby by real estate into with their pensions
events. There is article that neighborhoods in one here then it became a border region ever sat at night. I think that's pretty good speculation.
Maybe research, good good connections.
I thought I thought. Maybe that's? U dont. You did good thinking on that. You really inflection. So, ok, so
You decide to set it up very specifically in this wreckage in there,
the region, which became either you're, really significant answers.
Aspect of the film that
p, I love anything about a scarcity economy. I love by Le Movies Books plays where
An artificial scarcity is created and
and the people that are fighting
Others have set against each other to compete for the very little bits of usually not
very valuable. Whatever other heads
left because it is our artificially created scarcity, ah
the fighting becomes more and more vital
because there is a real enemy that isn't present worthy
And I think that frustration amplifies the fight between
groups, they don't really have anything
to fight about- and in this case,
his little white races, streak, kids and this guy
neighbourhood protection group, the sharks
keep your neighbor again. So so that's it.
So that's it you conceived of it anything it's interesting like watching them both side by side. Is that a lot of the re stuff and these units phobic stuff, is really in it
You know n n in a lot of the very
uncomfortable, and once you I guess you once you get past the black
I guess the nature of movies at that time you have
dancing in detention and end the emotions of it are all there, but like what I what what really happens in your version is that there is a depth to it that connects them all like you, don't
there. There is not the same year side of like as neighbours always shitty, but there is something like you're saying, there's something bigger than then that setting this you know in motion and
it's not addressed by them, specifically, maybe a little bit with the women singing their understanding of up upon
simple future, that's that's false or even their understanding, but really happening seems
was grounded understanding politically in the hole in the whole piece
I mean I I think I'm really got. He said that because I think that we need,
like what we were doing, the whole way was taking
I think, musically Raton music was a masterpiece. I think it's a great work of art and and all the things that we wanted to talk about it and deal with it. We did talk about a deal with an address in the movie that we just made, I think, are latent
and an laden
but present in one way or another Yazzi Ritual Broadway musical end in sixty one filaments I felt like
We had a new opportunity to look at it and just draw some of those thing. We got permission for everybody and support to do that, and I thought
the decision to have no subtitles, I think, was good, and I think that we are glad when people deserve it.
I'm going to also practically speaking report
Spanish, is, is failed
the english idioms, so
here. You'd have a hard time. I think such failure like me, you know that
There are people who are struggling with whether or not they want to speak Spanish or speak English, and they can speak both
so you, beef puppet
subject of all the time, and it would also then makes English the official language of the movie, and I think it,
yeah I've been joining. How freaked out people on the right like on Fox NEWS were that this is our design, subtitled Spanish in the film, so
stay away, because
you go, you won't have any idea what was going on and are they really doing that? Yeah?
there is a real sort of like. Oh my.
This is what culture taking over and it was again, you know don't panic.
Gilbert is not going to make a movie where huge,
numbers of people who have no idea. What's going on just go in
yeah. I got it. I am I'm the same way with Shakespeare. To be honest with you, I get the idea
I don't know. What's really there's talking about, but I understand
historic YO, Yo Yo Yo exactly job. What was your biggest fear going into it around? You know taking this work at yes, you what you would you get permission from into
I shall leave at university and permission from
a drone robin to state the letter. Bernstein three kids Alex Jamie Nina
and are the Lorens State Spending David said he was as murder.
And then some time
and they all had to pre, approve me as a screenwriter. I know the Bernstine kids and I knew or the Lawrence and David and I knew Steve.
And I ve a really long time. So that was
Pretty but they gave Stephen permission
a their son time at least was very Arthur Lawrence and any Bernstein were fairly critical of the sixty one from another affair about it. I think they were alone
Roger and Unfair Bailey
but they were they were not yeah, famously
Arthur Lawrence when he
watching the movie for the first time in a while after I really tough game ballerinas,
what do you mean by river? We is dancing things did
great I mean they were all the changes that I have
giving Rita somewhere now greeted with great. But you know I thought
That was really the most interesting story. Point that year
you sort of were able to dig into as to give that that kid, the Lee
Did you know a backstory? This there's no back story in the army. In fifty seven, they know they were making their doing a lot. A radical things were present. Certainly nobody ever done for bringing
type of personal stage that had not been Braun right, the Broadway
making a musical tragedy which no one had done before
Rogers and Emerson made sad musicals
but they really wanted to follow Romeo and Juliet make a tragedy that the assets, so
with all that they were doing, and also with the dance musicals driven by dance
with all the things they were trying it hadn't been tried before they they made a couple of concessions to convention and one of them was that,
the boy and a girl in the plot had to be good kid
They couldn't be juvenile delinquency. They had to be from
good families and nice kids, and then everybody else could be tougher and rougher
and we don't need to worry about that anymore. So, what's the point where there was like ie outside him deciding to work yet as,
I was to be in the street. I mean that's all you got that kid and she was so young so there
was known by
but I do I just saw the but the backstory was- was compelling.
That that, in our struggle,
with him get off
in other words really well. How did it? The thing would Spielberg start with you guys
I went angel in America, Michael's version came out on HBO
Maybe everything happened on
a movie or a tv show or something come out. You get caught.
some producers? You say: let's have breakfast, Sir
I got a call from Gatty Kennedy,
let's have breakfast I'm going to be in New York. I'd like to meet you and you just meeting you have breakfast and they said what are you doing and you say what it? What are you doing
I said together, what are you guys working on and she said, were putting on to failure and Stephen that working on two films
the murder, the israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics and negatively to many others,
dangerous croons, good ones book, for
coming, but Jim arrivals about Abraham Lincoln, as it does a great projects here and there
riser bachelor leave. I said you know
I just published, I added with a friend, LISA Solomon.
and of essays about these really palestinian conflict called wrestling design, and I said I'm really proud of the book
and if you guys are going to make us think about the
Munich Olympic Massacre, maybe if I'd suffered value it. So if you'd like I'd, be happy to send it to you, and I did- and I thought well, that's the end of that,
about two weeks later I got a phone call with Spielberg and he said I just read the essays and I really like them. I like to talk to you about the script and
it got together it s only the script,
I read it. We talked about it and then said: would you like to try and write your own version of it, and I said yes,
and now we just this summer finished our fourth movie together.
Thirdly, coming out in Thanksgiving which must be set,
it's about his childhood. We voted on zoom justly.
What we're doing no kidding during lockdown rerouted its the fastest thing I've ever we covered the script together. It's about Stevens
the child is the beginning. There is already a few running around like this super, a camera.
A break camera and then sixty millimeter in
it is also about his parents. Parents, marriage falling apart,
This is a measure of millions and pull down our suffragan and its.
I M very excited about what you're amazing
he finally doesn't autobiographical picture uneasy and easier to help them out
ledges shrink? What was that?
question about. Like you with Munich, I mean what what was
what was the challenge character logically and because I'm you seem to be near driven by dialogue. You like people talking, so
what did you need to show that you? I was in hebrew school when that happened. I was nine years old and I remember when it happened
And I remember there being this weekly magazine- we used to get a hebrew school about all those athletes, so we were
Why is it that you needed to what was
that you're with what you were saying before about forces and about people at
odds with each other in situations that are either control? So what was,
it with Munich? What
it. Will you, like I'm gonna, do his project, because this needs to be seen what was it
Well, I I was
didn't know why Stephen you wanna go into this incredibly dark
event in this sort of terrible moment.
I was nervous that it was going to be there with demon
the palestinian people
That was why I of course think that what
was down to the israeli outweigh the Olympics. Was her Anderson? Do you know
inexcusable and unforgivable
monstrous hacked, but
I believe that
the plight of the palestinian people is World historic collapse,
they then, and and as a Jew
support the existence of the state of Israel, I very much identified as a Jew, and I also think that the way to the
Palestinians have entreated, is unforgivable and inexcusable and
Violence begets violence, and I you know he was also right:
after nine eleven may, so that there there's a lot of
the movie addresses Israel's decision to.
The planners of the of the massacre, but
us, as they offer got rid of most of the people who day game is being.
Important people in the p allow,
and I made
goes to do this.
in violation of the huge number of international treaties and settings
the rule of law,
That was an interesting thing drew out. The idea is jewish muscle.
Agents yours enjoy assassins going around and greener when planning it
I thought there was fascinating. Paragraph had written a version of the script in it. I was really good
and you know
I'm always admired. Stephen is a filmmaker enormously and you know it would be in it
distinctly to explore with him.
it was taken by how dangerous it was.
The guy, the major those listed who is in a beloved jurists, Schoemaker beloved by yours too.
it goes on and I was very impressed.
I didn't need to sell him on the idea that this is now
situation of like you know,
The Israelis are the good guys and when is relatively little guys in their thousands, are monsters, yoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, subhuman evil people who, for some reason
can't leave us alone, so
I wanted to see her. I wanted to become part of his processes in exploring that a man- and you know what I was stunned- I'm all
They stand with Stephen, because he's such a complete,
master, the ardor filmmaking end of the artist star, storytelling and east knots. Instead
Hence has there been any party
found Lee gifted ad?
the construction of narrative, and
Is it incredibly generous collaborator? He he really invited me any kept me and set the whole time. Did you argue
Oh, we argued terribly
probably a little bit less on Munich them with.
Lincoln, where we really more. Those arguments about
oh about everything, really him and I lose a lot of them and I also Windsor.
the big problem was to struggle with Lincoln there's. Never like just one thing there always. You know
there were just subtleties and complexities. In this situation I mean they're AIDS. I wrote a five hundred page drat. First draft
however, from January to April, eighteen, thirty, six five and I
that's even from the last month, at the end of the war with Lincoln, was down at city point with rant wedding,
but was the first part which was the fight for the thirteenth amendment and
it's a brilliant choice, remain just about.
But we did that. We want a making a movie about the House of Representatives and,
in a world where the Democrats,
the bad, reactionary horrible. The Republicans are the progressive liberal, decent people and keep
track of all of that,
was hard and there are lots of things
Stephen off it doesn't like to rehearse, and he
you can get excited when actors improvise- and I hate it- will always have a big struggle about that. I wanted to stick to the script.
And and in Lincoln, sometimes
this is not about an actor I like. I was watching
I met a pastor myself that day about six hundred other little things running under the said. I watch video about IRAN's that achieving you, gotta stop for secondary change, something
Well, I don't wanna jaded were behind, I wanna keep going and is it no there,
hacking of link its office in the scene where their packing up the ward
It's because the war, essentially over every, goes to the theater and gets killed.
Putting things in a box there have been marked
for the national markets
You can do that,
the national archives were founded. Ninety thirty do so together
you're a little things like that. I won't tell tales and school, but
everything about him. Is he really with Russia story and allow a ton of things where we were? You know
I know where we were try. I mean, I think, the reason it turned out as well as it is. We everybody involved in constantly
The things to make sure that we were telling
as rich and fallen and a story ends we as we could and great at such a its greatest such an aggressive collaboration. Yeah.
Is it really is a dozen
I mean I've known him, never really long time and I love him as a person.
And as you know,
I feel it is incredible privilege for me. I don't use this word very.
But I really do think he's a genius
he's capable of doing things when you work at him over.
Over your come up with some
shot or some image.
Just out of thin air. It looks like- and you can't understand where it comes from its it's in Law- was explain it well who decide
the two to make our Lincoln twenty feet tall
there are decided,
amazing thing to say reminds me of that moment were on a much worse.
Their scale in some way because
The different medium wear
have you watched the the Beatles documentary
oh god, no way we're partial lies. It point get
back out of the air. You know, and you like that
It's happening right now. It's happening
and there and what I love is that he's sitting there, the piano just
his play. Your back and many sitting there play while running Rodya or let it gave and they're all rolling their eyes met, making fun of editing he's making fun of that. It's a waiter at one of the greatest songs ever written happening,
but I'm really curious about and nobody's barely Fledgeby is get back.
native and mediator. At one point, Macartney says the pakistani dad there's also somebody's appoint a written answer.
Its clearly about immigrants,
now our indicates Bulgarians. Migrants
a being welcomed somewhere and get back. Let's get back to where you once belonged to end, and you hear it and then
in one of those moments when they're not on camera, they break up for a few days. They come back
is turned into
a song about nothing,
the Beatles, nothing which is better than anything you are. You are you I found out,
God reside here come off that Turkey can prove another come together and the letter
I just have this is true that
when and came up with that
when Timothy Leary, who is running for governor
Asked Lenin to ride him campaigns on and he can
now, the sun and Larry
for whatever reason wasn't organise not to make use of it. I didn't get a vital area lie LE other, then you know who old flat top monsieur come off. Now, that's interesting its clearly Ronald Reagan. I wonder vesture. I do you
I want a film or play where very
takes the song and it becomes
campaigns are any beats Reagan for Governors Reagan's, first, successful
Campaign and he beats
dragon dragon. Just
go back to being a g spokesmen or whatever immediately
leaves the american political stage and the entire history of the United States after that is.
All three, the great isn't it
We stay on course and may become a bigger and better and healthy market that is an amazing, hallucination living. So this this.
comfort with improvising. Now
Is this something I like us
it's a big chunk of time between. You know Colombia and angels. You know how,
that was that was that wrought with
faculty in in becoming a player,
because of of behaviour that you may have had you mean
I mean we're: u difficult.
ask any of the directors irreverent. I'm a nightmare.
Now you know I mean it took me a while I went to graduate school to be a director. I think I'm afraid to be a writer. Writing is scary and I couldn't quite believe that I'd be good at it and I'm actually an ok director of stage director. I don't have any again gradually
but I'm ok, I regret
and I did.
I went into directive because it was aware of coming into play riding through the back door,
Was it helpful? Yes,
The w I daily orgy ADHD part of pirating. If there is a part,
This then is ours are not Arthur. Miller is really craft. It's really like cobbling together a skeleton.
We will hold this event together and are an
you have to learn a certain amount about how actors work young and
yeah? You learn
you spend time with actors will really good actors
and you see what their struggling with you learn.
Some other than that. None of it is rocket science. It's all pretty simple, really learn whether any
are you comes out on stage comes out to do something? At least this is true. Narrative me was from you come out of stage to have it
to do something and.
you either succeed or you fail. You run into somebody who doesn't want you to have it, but it's
it's amazing to me always how
Many people who act and made a direct, and sometimes even people right, don't quite get that. That's
where the drama and drama comes from doing things he added
that action. You need an action in the end. Also that speeches action right wing
why I get in a northern people improvise a little annoyed
we just made his movie with then set. Rogan was on the sad and Stephen cap teasing me before we start. I ve never met him. Forty billion suffragan is like
he's very Mister M problem, he's
do a single line. Then we run
he's gonna make it all up.
Well. At least, he really knows how to improvise, which most people don't
and I did not hear
as word perfect,
he's probably terrified
No, I think he just pee said I really liked the script and I really want it. I can't have you know I can do my thing with my stuff and I wanted to come here and really honor the thing.
know in Yemen. The explorer excited about the movie law,
loved website stories, ground of the great talking you say, hi to mark. For me,
I well well. This has been a lot of fun and has take here I'll, take
love that was rich. Is that where I work for nice rich, deep thought
and every may my brain go all the places
was I'd stories playing in theatres. Now I would go see it. It's pretty great, so vows one tony kosher.
what is understood without some guitar with it out. Here we go.
Amanda ages, everywhere.
Transcript generated on 2022-02-07.