« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 1376 - Henry Louis Gates, Jr.

2022-10-20 | 🔗

Henry Louis Gates, Jr. believes we must understand who we were in order to understand who we are. That goes for individuals, which is at the core of his PBS series Finding Your Roots, as well as society, which is the reason he made the new documentary series Making Black America. Marc talks with Professor Gates about the foundation of America, the progress that’s been made, and the inequality that remains, as well as the professor’s own unique upbringing that informs a lot of his thinking.

Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
People nowadays will be here before you know it. Take your how a budget further this year with low prices and unbeatable deals from amazon. You'll always- the best deals using amazon on black friday and cyber monday, but the low prices last all season long and it's never been easier to get. Your item sent you fast, prime customer, Get unlimited free, two day, shipping on eligible items for everyone else. Shipping is free when your order includes at least twenty five dollars of eligible merchandise. Legendary deals at amazon, this holiday season and keep everyone on your gift list. Happy spend less. smile, more ass all right. Let's do this, how are you what the fuckers, what the fuck parties, what the fuck nix what's happening? A mark marin. This is my party
w e f welcome to it? I am not at home. How are you where you were you guys? What have you been doing? goin on travelling, I've been traveling, so fuckin much, I dont even know. I don't know I've had enough for I love it. I dont I can't this one's along when coming over to europe being in new york for a few days. Doing london doing a dublin actually having days to her to hang out- I wanted to be great. I think it's been good, it's been very busy, but look. Let me ramble about that in a sense. Today, on the show, I talked to die, your henry louis gates, junior, yet the guy talk to me about my routes. from finding your roots that guy he a scholar, literary critic of film maker historian, he's prefer sure at harvard university, and I only hope that show finding your roots and he's
this new documentary series on pbs, it's called making black amerika and I what if you episodes, and I am constantly amazed it at everything I do not know. I do not know so many things it so fucking disturbing to me sometimes that I think I feel the general sense of things, a general education of things. I find that I've been interested and put stuff into my brain and and learn new things until you really put things into historical com accident. We expose yourself to facts about how Shit went down one year one day, after the next year two year when and how and why, a thorough way, what do you really know? You know these general ideas? You know the general. I know general things about the black community. but I dont know the evolution of those communities in how they were built in how the the entire boy
the business world in system was created in in your post reconstruction during the failed reconstruction, I just fascinating and there's part of me that thinks. Why should know why? Don't I know this, why wasn't toddy? an odd? We that's exactly what they're not going to teach in red states, be school boards are shutting them down from teaching that its part the history and theirs. Of my history- I don't know it's all I get older. I realize I don't know a lot of stuff and a kind of spin around with this. I do know add new things. I do I'm learning things I retain enough of it to add to say, like I heard about and the right. I said thing in that: isn't that have to do with this right? That was that thing that was kind That was like the thing that was the happen after that everything right, but I mean who has the kind of memory
pretend I mean I'm getting older, so as I put new stuff in shit is, is is draining out, I mean I just its unreal to me. And I'm not even that Point I'm not even being nostalgic terms of my life. I'm just sort of trying to you'll go through the back. and hold on this stuff post office. But I can look at it and and and sort of put on the shelf were or where to go in. There is just some things have just gone. Is like an entire wall missing from my memory. Hey folks, do you need a website? Are you trying to sell things online, or do you just want to have a place where people? confined all things. You
can do it all yourself. What square space which has all the tools you'll need to build your online presence and then some that's? Why we you square space to build a beauty of pod dotcom? We were able to do everything we needed to do put up our episodes play audio search, the archives, get tour tickets by march, get people to sign up we're w tia plus whenever we wanted and scores made it easy to do all of it and if you video on your site. You can do that with the square space video studio, which helps you make professional quality videos to share. You can also sync your site to your social media accounts, so you can keep people in the loop on all your channels and good advantage of the square space. Email campaigns get yours, visitors to sign up and then stay in touch. This is how you do it go two squares dot, com, swash, w tia for a free trial and then dont forget to use offer code, w e f, when europe To launch that gets you ten percent off your for purchase of a website or domain that scores but
dot com, slash, wtf, offer code, w t, F, So what else am I gonna do here? What else have I done here, We strong give me some restaurant recommendations already went to one and auto linky restaurant cause. I have his cookbook, which is beautiful, and then I went and had the food. It was good and I'm going to private some indian food last night. This was kind of interesting Helen hunt, reach out to me: She had listened to the episode I did with Michael Morris, who was the director over at the old vic. It turns out that door Helen hunt. In a show there right now called eureka day Weaver was the name of the play. And she said, look. I know you're going to be and tat. One should come see this play. and I went to see it I haven't, I went with my manager- kelly,
and I want to see a play last night. It's been sea like this is what this is. What's happening. This is what I make sure that I do when I go away specially to these cities. They have something to offer. I go to the theatre, Can I go see art? If I can. I ghosts. You'll get good meals. If I can, I get out in the world, so I went this play, eureka day, which I have to assume, will avenged had broadway cause it's just too tight to relevant and kind of whenever we handled its it all takes place at a progressive, I think, elementary school in berkeley, California, it's the board of a mint directors that the few parents in charge and that the head of the school and some of the teachers and is it's like four or five five characters and-
it is able to deal with all of these things. We ve sorted been dealing with in the cultural. This course, around your point of view, opinion vaccine, and it was that you it takes place in two thousand seventeen. And revolves around a mumps outbreak and he progressed. school. So it Canada has the arc of and is very there's some extremely funny, and reaching moments in it and how it hunts great mark me. from kids. In the hall was in it he's great, the other performances are great, I don't mean not to know them, but to assume that this is like a sort of test run and it'll make a two hour to broadway. I. It was nice to see how who had seen since I talk to her mckenna, who I don't think I've ever talk to cast Isn't he a missing kid? I do know him. The play was good
sort of inspired me to you know, think about doing a play. That would be, thing I haven't thought to do in awhile. Maybe I should make myself available to that because I gotta honest with you one of the Mom's with being sort of not so much a home body, but a guy these prone to panic when he's two on, for one reason not people do with kids and one peter how people do it with farms, yawned and I guess you know you just kind of look out for yourself. go doing. I do but that the worry element, I guess not Nobody does a guess. People put people into place, which I have or put things the place or work shit out or make things make sure thing taken care of in just kind of do their life. I have to assume that whatever is wrong with my brain in this area is what keeps me from. I don't know what, from being a global superpower, I dont know I didn't something. It's holding
back from something maybe enjoying life and travel, but I'm gonna do it I'm going to get out there today, today I do it's was gonna, be yesterday. By the time you hear this ban an ado alive. Deputy F tonight, would David deal we're gonna get in. The jewish thing, as I do occasionally, as he's made a life of as of weight and I dont know him. That's got interviews this week, there's an outside chance as dimension mention, I'm not going to mention it I can imagine who are interview because we don't know how it's all gonna go I don't want people going what happened that didn't happen so you'll just have to wait. You'll just have to wait. Ok, array, Now a word from our spots or better help. You hear me about it all the time I have trouble compartmentalizing, I'm talking about it. Now, whether I have problem or a bunch of small problems. It doesn't matter for me at all turns into one overwork
problem that takes up all my energy is very frustrating and it's tough to train your brain to stay in problem solving mode when you're dealing with the stress and challenges of life, but when you learn how to find your own solutions, there's no better feeling a therapist and help you become a better problem. Solver make it easier to accomplish your goals, no matter how big or small and, in the meantime, unload some of your stress, lower your anxiety and feel emotionally fulfilled if you're thinking of in therapy a try better help is a great option. It's convenient, accessible, affordable and entirely on mine get matched with a therapy after filling out a brief survey and switch therapists. Any time when you want to be problem? Solver therapy can get you their visit, better help, dot com, w e f today to get ten percent
your first month. That's better eighty lp dot com, slash w e f. Yes, I'm talking it out. I gotta go back I'm gonna go back, so I don't know what's going on here. That's the other thing it's like I am so immersed in the cultural and political issues and and environmental issues of america. Barely can keep up with that and london and england has a totally different spectrum of of problems and politics and things I don't understand it makes me feel, will bizarre In terms of, why should I know, aren't things I should know? That is this more that I should know. How much could I contained in my brain? Did I already blow it with the knowing stuff have blown it for the knowing all he knows it. it wanted some a souvenir commemorating the passing of the queen. and I ve got her many because I just have stores
That is all I can go to a nice store to get tourist bullshit You go to a bullshitting tourist store which has won right down here in piccadilly circus at bottom. Bunch of us duff bunch stuff for kit yeah that's it is shit right. There so, anyway, we go: ok, Henry louis gates This documentary is an important documentary because it then deal with. I feel like there's been many Oxen movies I've seen dealing with the they sort. Slavery experience or the underground rail road experience. This dock series at he's made making amerika, is really about you know black communities put themselves together. Through business through fraternal orders through organizations of women through our politics. It's just it's. It's
or walk into a world that I knew nothing about, I'm assuming that many people certainly white people don't know about, but it it was very informative and mine blowing. Really it airs tuesdays PBS stations nationwide. You can also stream it on people. Digital platforms. It's called making blackmail, I will now talk to Henry louis gate and try to deter him from going over my genealogy again I often think of europe. The three generations finland dear in from antwerp and nineteen twenty is that where it was on your mom's idea allowance from galicia go each year, because I was
when I put this on tape, we're on a we are here now and think of the what's unusual about your family trivia and your family's experience is that through generations came together in the same boat right nineteen twenty from your homepage judge a hope. roger how bitch yeah, yeah yeah your hope it share, and I I to tell so many people that only one generation came via or only one individual came right and a sibling left a sibling behind, and that was the wrong choice: high yeah, really it's greece! People as well, because the nazis and went and right, you know, kill the person who stayed behind we we avoided nazis by tightly acting back there. There were some russian problems. The
at the time yeah yeah golda fear, out of here. He was my grandmother, yeah yeah, that's right! We're doing it again and you aren't, should I go get the tree. Yeah well, golden came with her mother molly and a graham grandmother, Parola rivers yeah, and that's what makes your family interesting your family history, because they are as a unit yup and rather than singly. So many people come to the united states alone. Worry I'll! Tell you something! I've been watching that can burns america and the holocaust bit tough to watch. It's not always tough to watch, but I watched her a few episodes yours and new, as a kind of like relatively intelligent white guy I don't know any of this shit. I really you know like as a jew. I died no idea how dug in Anti immigrant policy was and, and always has been any end when watching yours- you our two really realise that whatever Problems were having now
are are the exact same fights that have existed since the beginning of the country on its true. But I I was so inspired bank inc, KEN's that you know when I first heard another, dog iranian holocaust and I happened to watch as many documents for the us as I possibly can. I thought why wonderworking could say that's new and what was new was his of anti semitism in a mere great in general and, more specifically within the government and Roosevelt's government right. The state department he had no power over a completely white supremacist state department, absolute shamelessly, white, supremacy yeah. and just proud of it. Yeah and they they didn't even lose sleep, but that, but that's what happening now like there are so many people they like when I watch the two episodes. Yours, I really, This is exactly why red state school boards are trying to keep out when it's not it's, not the framing
of the black experience as as slaves or as an alternate history its literally the history of american people. That is not the narrative tat. They grew up with absolute you'd. I tell my sits at teach. A large co teach with evelyn brooks Higginbotham a large sure corset harboured intro to afro. I call it introduction asian markets, stunning and Early on in the semester, I tell the students the two streams flowing constantly under the floorboards. Of western culture and american culture. one is the stream of anti black racism, the other one next, so it is a stream of anti semitism and they are actively. By the same forces, which are when she's strip away all of these, causes. Excuses. Explanation yes gets down to economics, it all flows from economic, security economic jealousy
economic motive? Motivation? In a case, african americans being reduced to commodity themselves, where I think about what is the ultimate Four com vacation, it is blackness and slavery. You know you were an an echo Make entity colored black rind. You were an economic entity, because you were black, a working object, absolutely and with Jews baden, sovereign savings at long time ago, as we know from go down Moses Pharoah, it is, but I always felt uncomfortable when jews kind of play that card, because its it's not in our experience, isn't it. Local history. I media experience of of modern jew is genocide, genocide yeah? It is six million of your brothers and sisters in just a few years ago, right and all key
in just a few years- I've it's an- I can't see it, but also with the point. The economic part of the jewish and the Jews have all the money right up big day or a day. You know hitler. Hitler says we can balance or check book if we just confiscate, all the property of the Jews, kill end and take the golden their teeth and all We think that they be possible. He could own that can be converted into cash and that's what he did but like I like in watching your show like witty we terms of europe you're coming of age right in an u deciding You know what your role is in in academic six in the black community and interest in your your life's work, Where does that start? For you word I mean: where did you grow up
great question, oh you're, going to do my roots. Sure among the ragged like to I don't have I don't have the research I can get it out of you. Maybe you got you got me. I was born in piedmont, west virginia, which is a paper mill. Town population, two thousand five hundred in the year in which I was born. Nineteen, fifty three hundred eighty six black people write that in italian irish italian paper mill, talia and I family, as it turns out, has lived thirty mile radius, of this little town for the law as two hundred years. I didn't know that till we started filming find new routes and our genes. Logical team trace. My answer: will you the further? Yes I've? Actually in the first season first adoration of series, I only did african american cosette
I brand riah. It was called african american lives and I was trying to be the genie, illogical guru for other african americans, because I out to do Alex Haley one better. Here I wanted to do what alex purported to do right. I wanted to that in a laboratory in a test for all different people. Yet I wonder you would only for african american liars because of that romania, because a full range right. Yes, absolutely where people come from the well and I found out the more I learned how various that range is. But let me go back the admin ray I back there sizemore nineteen, fifty an older brother Paul, whose an oral surgeon he is five years older and my dad. two jobs at the paper mill in the daytime west vague paper company. Andy was a janitor at the telephone company in the evening. My mom, who said
to be a seamstress in atlantic city in a vocational school was a housewife from the time that my brother and I were born here because that's where was my dad we're two jobs right mama didn't answer: because he had to jobs. We, we had the most comfortable existence of all the black people in piedmont, west virginia because well because he had double income. Okay, not now because he was like he didn't, he didn't come home and yellow, yet no, no! No! No! No! He didn't do any of that. He and so. I was always raised to think of myself as privileged, because visa be all the other black people in town. I was right right, yeah so and I'm My family had a long history in this area. Again I didn't know how long right people it is in the Potomac river valley in the alleghany mountains. Zocor have waiting.
Its burden washed like pittsburgh, it's not exactly a hotbed of black culture when you think about you, know the hills arrested in nature, but that's where my family was from and that's interesting. So how did they get there? I'm gonna tell you that, but I was raised three, a doctor my mother. God bless her soul. In Heaven. There. Fathers unholy goes in a medical doctor and all smart little color boys color girls. Yet we were back, there were raise reductions, so skippy gates was raised to be a doctor. So for christmas I got Steph how'd you get that nickname. When mom was pregnant, she was reading a book and the character was skippy or skipper yeah, and so that was a name she liked What my family's very big on on Henry louis gate, senior with tiny, because he was born in nineteen thirteen herman, no, no variation arrive. My mother was called pun. How could she liked language so much a hollow? She was Pon Paul edward now.
For the two grandfather s my brother yeah. That's that's our family tradition here, but it was, lucky was reading a book five years. for with a carriage in iraq in ok, I gotta and your skin, and then then I will skip so took me a long time not to become a doctor. I mean a very long time night through yale I was gonna, be a doctor and at the fellowship to go to england. Cambridge It was there that I realise that I wanted to be a scholar and one to be professor. So when you guy now what a premium, obviously em in something about that. The document is yours, you did it making black america that the evolution of the Jews education, no structure for, african americans was all self driven. and I imagine that would be the generation like maybe two before you well take my brother boy. Ninety forty fire. He went the colored school right here,
and to lincoln was the segregated. elementary school and howard high school was the segregated highschool, so started the segregated school brown viii boards of banking. Fifty four, when I was for four reasons mark that nobody knows the white, people who dominated the vote in county west Virginia voted to integrate schools immediately, and so our school system. Integrated completely without rose, barks bartley, the king, without a peep in nineteen fifty and I started at the white school in ninety fifty six TAT funny story by them my dad was a hilarious. My dad was one the great storytelling, My dad made red fox look like undertake where it gave a letter, so my dead sat me down. The day before I start at the white school on august. Thirty, first thank you for being here and
tat we and our formal living room. I mean our house as big as your area, studio urea, but we had a formal living room where the be about Forty two, I remember govern plaid red was covered plaster and I don't know about mobbed I was gonna get every couple of the queen of england is gonna echoed the president. Is that when the plastic comes off, I never knew when it comes to. Every day more ever came abrogate mobile disintegrated up went up in smoke, so my dead took me into our formula here and he said- wait. Colby boy, he lived to be ninety seven and half. He called me boy to the day died and ed boys, something that I need to explain to you and he said, sit down now thought as in trouble, because nobody ever in that room and I said what is daddy terrified and he said you're going over the white school tomorrow, and the something you need to know. I said he said well two kinds of white people two guys away poop. Now, but this white town, riotous iris. It I'm sure paper mill to air, thus awakens all to air
I didn't know there came a kinds I go well. How do you know? differences. Have that's why I brought you in serbia there, the italians and the irish- and and there's a crucial difference between them. I go what's the key and he said the irish, have names that begin with. Oh and the italians have names that end with oh yeah. It is true, and that's the secret to my success of all these years, so I started in a fully degraded school in mauro as virginia, and I never had any expense racism by any tee. I was elected class president began now. Do you realize what why does I feel like an anomaly to me? It is an anomaly pretty when you see how how strongly my fellow Virginia came out for donald trump here and if you associate west virginia with and when you see Joe mansion up there, you associate associated with being very conservative, but it wasn't
I was growing up and it was very liberal vibrate. Do you think that was because that you know that those that those other two communities were only a generation or to away from the immigrant experience well The motto of western genius mountaineers are always free and those men There is a kind of regular individual, healthier sounds corny, but his shoe and its our dna fact that born. I'm interviewed the girl it was her junior. Was it important to my identity. nation as being an african american, because I was very much west virginia. I grew up honey. I grow up. Fishing first dear season was on holiday when you're too. If you had a for ten minutes, you know of tangible and that's just the way it was. Did you that out of you at some point. No! No! I love it. I like to vacation at the beach yeah, but not in the mountains cause. I saw the mountains every day till I went off to yale when I was eighteen years old. So now the yale thing now with that to always
school you want to go to that work. Well, I was raised to be a doctor. And what does that mean, though it was just pop pummelled into your head, they are going to be a doctor going to be adopted. The teacher I was gonna be a doctor, the my brother's, adopt my brother, they guy, why you got one, and I will, if you, ask me: I was just going to be adopted so now I went through new phases of interest in college and it's funny because we just presented. We do I just presided over the hundred centre, there's at harvard I'm the director my day, job of the the greatest centre for the research in african everywhere africa, latin american african american culture is called the hutchinson on yes endowed by my friend, Glenn hutchinson, life Debbie hutches, the hygiene centre for ever in african researchers are yeah big annual ceremony, to pick seven individuals to Brazil,
the Dubois metal in w e b Dubois, the first black man to get a phd from harvard university in eighteen. Ninety, four, twelve other people were there and Karim. Karim. Abdul Jabbar was one of our on iran's and it made me remember that way. I was an early teenager. I went to u c l a yeah to get the the course catalog back in the day. Yeah, of course, catalogues were like little books here and I got used to always cause Karim. Karim was there and I was going to go to? U c l a and they had a great medical school he's a thoughtful guy, intellectual guy. He is an old friend and someone I admire very much cream. It even studied arabic at harvard and summer school. So I went through this whole for They may also roads, michigan michigan state in the schools, in a great basketball. Yet, not that I was ever gonna play basketball, but those were the ones it s on tv, but then
It was hard radio or princeton, and we ended a tradition of attending her in my father's family, my father's first cousin george Lee actually graduating from harvard law school year in nineteen, forty nine, the year before I was born and his wife The higgs hastily got her p. It's the comparative literature from harvard in nineteen fifty five. So they were held up. As the you know, you can imagine you're from the culture that that privileges- education, yes like I am here, and they would they were the touchstones for academic excellence. One day you grow up and go to harvard like your cousins yeah and I thought her and then I was watching tv and smart kids went to harvard yale and princeton right there. That became a metaphor. Then they went to Oxford cambridge sober The time I was in saying no, great idea. I headed desire to go to the ivy league. Get her scholarship and then go off to england. That was what my family, and you know, and not as a doctor and where
I was going to be a doctor road scoured. I was gonna, do that and then come back and- be careful what you wish for a right. I ended up grass if a bail and then I will wait. Gotta fell shifting the universe at cambridge way out my masters degree in my peace, and to my astonishment on june, twenty second my alma mater award me an honorary degree, which is the first african american mail like an african american in the history of cambridge words over eight hundred years, to get dounreay degree. My friend jesse norman who's left us a jesse norman was the first in nineteen. Eighty nine- and I was the second- is the one of the greatest honors of my life to buy the place. Where I that were highlighted so my father, my father? Father ye had three sisters. My father was born on the gates farm to undertaker farm mike and father work that farm here with his father, edward gates,
his wife might and was born eighteen, fifty seven it osborne. Eighteen, seventy nine my day was born. Nineteen thirteen, my dad was born on the gates farm. at the turn of the century. My great grandpa and did something so extraordinary that I still can't processes they kept the sun on the farm, the oldest child of five and sent the three girls to college can imagine, a black family they sent my three great ants to howard university, one became a nurse and the other two became teachers. and one made a dentist one may a pharmacist here and one married, a sign, painter and so my brother is the third generation dentists and they extended gates, gave itself without affirmative action. I would have gone to howard. But what
Urban of action did was open up historically white university so that people like me could a fairly compete. Pia forget, that's what firm innovation it So why would I say where the affirmative action generation, because the class of sixty six at yale had six? guys to graduate the class that hit new haven in timber. Sixty nine with me, had ninety six black men and women. So what was the market genetic blip and raise race around the center? Ninety smart blockades exists in sixty nine widen existed before no affirmative action lifted. says quota that had obtained it gale in our region- and god knows Princeton for a long long time. So there were only six in sixty five sixty four sixty three. But as a scour when you're there like, I have to assume that you in the sixties when you start gale, how? When did you start? Sixty nine? I mean everything's
when apart it was a wild west days, a revolution yeah we went on strike and in the second smith, for the black panthers. Right back. Be seal. Pierre was on trial in the new courthouse, a block from calhoun age, where my door months it did you go today. I was onto. I was secretary, the black student organization, who I had no choice as terrified baby like man has around. We add the black panthers the black muslims. We had cultural nationalist. It was wild I'd like to write a novel about a good. So what? Where did you find yourself? You know in the middle of all that I mean you know it made me realize what it made me realize I hated bullies. I hated it a lot But here I hated people who would Tell you that you weren't black enough that you weren't the authentic you weren't. The real deal I guess they all kind of did that we all did that unless you subscribe. To their their doctrines right. Why and I
lucky because I had a strong nuclear family up and a deep deeper sin is funny little community, a black people in the hills of west virginia and I knew myself- and it was a challenge because there forces, saying you're not I, unless we remember this, is a period of black power. Sure and so I had an afro blank as beautiful you are doing all the right thing we were doing alright thanks, I became I volunteered to be the secretary, the black suit organization, so I wouldn't have to say anything yeah. I was just taking notes, so I could watch this sort of landscape of blackness that was unfolding and went out. What was it was actively debated all the time, all the time and man Somebody was always jump in somebody's face, rang and leisure to feed I? U not black enough, Why you gotta closet, duchies, legible,
swahili, whatever you know, I call him the litmus test of blackness but- interesting to me in in in hearing you talk about. That is you're. A lot of that stuff was of the time and was irresponsive agreed. Identity driven, whereas It seems that your life's work has been too incorporate the the work, the literary work of of black riders. You into the the respect that that the white callin gets so it was it was not about the sort of ideas about blackness ideologically, but about the full spectrum of black scholarship, our absolutely I am real. he's very quickly, I've never was gonna, be a member of a party I am dismayed that way, I'm too cynical, I'm too, the optical and two independent. I We want to be a fly on them. I want to write about a political rally
beyond the point. Where did you, but when you were pressed at that time, you you know Did you did you speak up yet I had in afro ok, but I never ever was embarrassed about having white friends. I had a white girlfriend my sophomore year. I never met my foot Eddie Jackson was in love with him irish american woman, those student Albertus Magnus college, which the Cathy girls go up the street- I am, he was bullied- and he gave up the love of his life and he never got over a never abbe actually committed suicide, the only guy and I'm I will go to my great believing that one of the reasons it eddie did there was that he could never lived. Self cutting, lose the love lovers and I was determined nobody was tell me how to be good, and you know what my lecture course clear. My lecture chorus and my section of electric cars I always end my lecture. What this way I structured this course
around the experience I had at yale so that every week The students learn about a debate with the black people have had in the black community about what it means to be black starting in eighteenth century and the and so the moral of the story is that never was one way to be black and I in my last lecture. I say, therefore, if there forty two million african americans, that means forty, two million ways to be, but never let a bully Tell you how to be black you're here at harvard cause yours, special person. You're gifting and most of my suits are white. I mean all the black kids take the class, but they're overwhelming you know got one hundred and fifty kids here have one hundred fifty black kids that are so still up, and I say each these special, and even if you're, not black, if you're jewish, don't let somebody tell you there's one way to be jewish if you are from china If let someone tell you and tell you that one way to be asian american, etc set. So it's a metaphor.
But the reason that I have this sense of stubbornness about detecting the individuality of your identity is because experiences I had ill because the secure background, that I had at home my dad when, but when I got india, my parents bought me. A new car career thought all the rich white kids head, As I got up there man, I was only kid. I knew had a car here. I had a new royal electric typewriter, all new clothes, of course, but my mother was the you know, seems just so we always you know with new clothes always had new textbooks, et cetera and my father packed up the car. And I drove up thereby myself, but my father right before I left said- he said I will give you three better advice is allows, at this time this september, sixty nine news about. The black table in the ivy league- was hitting time magazine because he's the
historically widened caesar like Armenia are opening up because of pressure from Iraq, but to every I'm surprised the black kids were all sitting together in the cafeteria. Rain was called the black tapir of others dug up there sitting him sitting along with all these black kids at the black table. Here he said you're going at yale, not howard, grew up there. He said and they'll go up there getting black roommates don't go update it with black people called the Jim crow in yourself he said: don't go up there, but have a black. you know what he said you gotta Lotta got here that he said I civil. What kind of roommate I get daddy's get a jewish guy, it'd be good to our people, might learn something funny and then he said and for christ's sake, dog up their studies. now they called black study he said because you're as it'll be black for eighteen years and I'm paying for that yeah. So here's what I did this is. I want you to know what a dutiful center every aid at the blight table. I had three
like roommates and though I did major an app afro American studied the gold, as it was called at yale every semester. When I could, I took a course of black content, because I was I took them. first course afro american history, that but every exposed to assume My first semester who's the teacher, William mcfeely. Why go subsidy and get the pulitzer prize for his biography of Ulysses? S grant and everybody black took that court there a couple hundred of us in their plus a lot of white kids, and I was riveted in every fact that I read free story that I heard just talk to me like salute me, and so I developed this. Almost skin. We're of again? In african american studies not things is stuck to a most interesting, though like what you say about what you father tat, because even in the un, in the
met member which episode of of the dock there, you're their arguments now that black community makes about maintaining and staying in a black space. Yes, ensuring that day- Your father was saying. Like you know, you ve done that right. You know it's time to go out and see the other the world right, but now there there. Still there there's the eyed, the entire memory seems to bat be about what we black communities and black people did in in the shadow of on going rate behind the veil. Yet boys put, but there is a difference between enforced segregation. We in for separation and willing association right? It's a funny thing sing chapter in our history right after brown, be bored mia was announced by the supreme court. There were but the leaders of the black community or organised a robber, in the great novelty tells a story they was
I'll do meeting in new york, but he lived in new york and he was despatched to tuskegee, where he'd been a student to tell the people. That they were soon going to go out of business, that all blankets goals. We're gonna go out of business because they only exists because segregation and There was going to be no need for them, and now you look back and laugh, but a moment apple is the black schools have never been higher, because people have chosen. To associate with other black people and to participate in historically black institutions willingly because they embraced the culture and look, I think the model for that is it jewish community, where you can, you know, observe sabbath. You could observe the high wholly dad but be fully integrated into american society that you can be both. You can celebrate your joy. identity, either religiously or not MA am
but certainly culturally and be thoroughly integrated into the american economy in american culture. With that struck me about the the stuff in the document, because this stuff, I didn't, know that the idea that there a schism in the black community around you're trying to be to appease white by acting like them right, but but but really you know in in what you you sort of set out in in the documentary to show is that you're building businesses, building fraternal orders, building banks building a you know a varying degree of entrepreneurship yet trying to be white this how the country worked by absolutely. We were excluded from the white exam right away to instances of those. So what do we do that we sit around and just wring our hands? Then we sit around and cry and complain. No, we replicated the world from which we are excluded. just like jewish people, the big couldn't go to white country, a mean wasp jerk
joy joy, kyar clubs of the goitre. They did ask ills: re enter and a thousand one other examples but low. It might very generous a dentist in the gates for here the first I couldn't join the american dental associate. So what did they do? They form the national of associate the black doktor couldn't ewing anime. They form the national medical souci black lawyer. Like my cousin. Gradually, marble law school couldn't be an american bar association. They form the national bars national like in the end, a voice. He p. the national association for the advancement of colored people in iso coated for black and they call you could be in the america win, but you could be in the national yeah, it's a Its fascinated me too to to know that you I mean like. I might panic about the nature of our. Are our system now right, and you your friends with Barack obama and
no, you went through your own issues around me and very well publicized arrest, at your own housewares there, my life, I do not. I do not recommend arrest for anybody, but it was interesting in that one talk about the reconstruction, when they talk about this idea of a multi, racial democracy or or a by ratio at that time, democracy that we you, you see that always other community striving within their social within democracy, in capitalism, There is a still a separation there, but that there is sort of the opportunity on some level, but but do you think, in your experience and in your studies, that that multi racial democracy is working? Oh yeah, I think that. Well, isn't it very complicated it's to see
is Donald. Trump waiting in the wings might give one pause right right, but my wife is cuban here, a cuban citizen mir and a professor. He liked me and says all my friends whenever complaining. Yes, but you could throw him out You still have the right to that jump can get a likelihood. Donald trump can be thrown out. I think We have to remember that that we do live in a democracy and a multi racial coalition, elected like to Obama. There was, backlash against obama as a black and without a doubt and remember, I said there were two string streams, we're always running a floor, borgia american culture. That forces called I'd supremacy and that having a black man in the white house june triggered those for that bees,
which was slumbering many of us thought it had been banished, came rolling out of the floor and a lot of people were freaked out in part. Because when we economics. Why do I say that? Because many people I grew up with mia, who base there then so, being an american visa on an idea progress, it was infinite. Yeah they edward start in me. Labour pool at the paper mill then It is promoted to the crafty and round me good money. Now plumber or an electrician. Whatever you senecas college, because come back, may be an engineer working paper mill to buy bigger. the you buy house, you know be at work our way and so and then kids kid your grandkids. They will go to college, maybe a duck early, be a lawyer that fiction of infinite upward mobility is over and
a lot of people? Don't know how to deal with that? is the new narrative, how're we're going to make sure that the world is economically far grandkids or even air YAP. The paper those gaia lit in my home town, there was nothing else there, but that paper mill. What is it there now is like a ghost down the big instead of twenty five hundred people when I was born there. I think eight hundred people, the last sensus and their people, Just will never ever leave, but you don't wait. This idea, though, maybe I'm cynical about it. You know you can just vote somebody out as as these young as not unlike the school board. There's a certain strain of, of religious fascism That is your kind of radicalizing, some state. Where fletcher. Oh my god and more importantly, is the voter suppress yeah, the wreckage
ended because voter suppression, let me give you a little backroom till nineteen ten nine, we percent of the african american people lived in the former confederacy and get this sal, mississippi recipient louisiana, where majority black states right george alabama Florida were almost majority black states give black men I devote remember. Only men had the right to vote here. That's called black our baby here and so the black men in the former confessed. She got the right to vote because of the week inspection act in eighteen, sixty seven when they voted they elect the president and eighteen sixty eight ulysses? grant one. The electoral college overwhelmingly buddy only one the popular vote by about just over three hundred thousand votes, five hundred thousand black men voted in the general. Like some eighteen, sixty eight and in south carolina, which was ground zero for black power. The whole the state legislature The house of representatives was majority black saying it changes egg days they were all black wholly backward
and the way they shut down reconstruction most effectively. Most devastatingly was to take away the right to vote and starting in eighteen, ninety with what was called the mist They plant each of the former confederate states, ratified a new state, constitution and without using the word black or negro, as we were then or race. They effectively took away the right to vote of these black men throughout the south do paul taxes, literacy tests, grandfather clause, as you are now effective, was take low yeah in eighteen. Ninety eight there were hundred thirty. a black men registered in the same louisiana after Louisiana, ratified their new races, rewrite ridden, I'm sure this constitution by nineteen o four that number had been reduced per se one thousand three hundred and forty two, that is voter, suppress and that's what we see today.
And that's what we have to fight against the because if people of color have the right to vote protected There won't be a return of donald trump begins now this, which is why they're doing all this robot gerrymandering, teach and and trying to in various ways: suppress the right of people of color to vote it. So there they can win in these in the But now the language of the gnp is, is blatantly white superman. There. It seems that way. To me an end is that what you are saying that you wish to figure was under yahoo, is underneath the surface now. Not only is it out, but it its shameless while Donald trump just lifted up the floor. Earlier I get it. You know someone asked me the other day did I don't jump is elected. I was interviewed course, and now these they said, do you think, he's erased and as well,
don't know the man we I don't know. What's in his heart, some prepared the benefits europe is he raises about absolutely but I dont know if he's busy, I don't know, but but it's important for me to say this. I don't No, if he's a racist like orval faubus, was a ray or george wallace was right that in a sense it doesn't matter, but those guys were born racist. I mean they just hated, I think don't jump opportunistic race initiatives makes him a racist, but he saw that he could stir up all of these buried sentiments unless them and profit from the people who believe those near he can happened at the instead of us. Waging people's fear obama sought to do of the room because when let him do it, but he sought to do that Obama really thought that he could be a healer and he wasn't. He was
divisive vague, but because they these people in the grip of white supremacy, we're terrified, yeah and they said Jesus they've taken over. I mean god they've taken over the white house. What was next and despite the man's best efforts, and he he good night come the figure of healing and reconciliation that we all thought he would be used. You believe it was still a successful presidency. Oh yeah! Absolutely he did as well as he could hear. I mean when you have the speaker of the house, give a press conference we're gonna, do everything we can to see that he fails. You know or the majority leader of the republicans in the senate, you know we are undermine this guy day, and they did for eight years, but it but it, but it still doesn't take away the fact that it was pretty amazing that he was president It was america, america, at its finest elected but rock who say no
america at it's worse, elected donald trump is like a joke. It's like satire yeah, it is. It is, but it's like it. It's a custome, a tremendous amount of stress every day, yeah! Well, you yeah. It worries me, but I'm a I'm constructed fundamentally around the embrace of optimism. I believe that, many people decent people lineup gives by the way the high school, with you told me the summer before, election hilary that they were going to vote for the donald trump there's gonna win when every the summer, my wife and I spend two months of martha there, which are, I love her and though these seven women, whom I met on the first day of first grade higher in piedmont, western ginea august, there firstly, the eighty six, they come in spent four days with us. on the vineyard right six. Why girls in one go,
girls because marry when I was next year again women and all of them. Almost all of them voted for donald trump, so I know jump had a lot of people who were not moose warning. We were not races. Because they aren't racist they, room because they felt that there was no hope. I felt that there was to corruption, they they saw him as a populist corner was, and I did a huge event on friday at loyola mary mountain twelve hundred people can just now, and he had a brilliant- was interviewing money hang up conversations at loyal, loyal, marry me out of this year and this three I say with corn out my dear friend, and he talked about that donald, how donald trump appealed to populist instinct leah, but this? U populism, in amerika goes to ways either goes toward of a liberal, democratic ideal, the best of us or the white surprise. Is under way
the worst of bosnia, Donald trump took it right that way into the boughs. The depths of white supremacy fear the worst but any data consciously any- was very effective it, but still we we remembered how do you feel about those people? I think they're frightened and he still socialized with them every year, already mina your five year, my best friends, you look. They knew me when I was six years old, but I would never turn out of a bad loser the only way at every turn it s. One of my friends for met remember to go back to my. What was my crucial shaping experiences yale surrounded by ideological bullies right right, so I never judge. Never just my friends on their idiots if you put on a clan suit and were burning crosses all my line that
we might have to talk. You know french, why don't you bring it has as its actual person? Do? I m me: I don't know to what degree their belief, was, but it seems that that their propaganda and and misinformation, and in only conspiracy theories now seem to turkey, it's a good deal of of relatively good people's brains. Well, I think that with my friends, they thought that the lives of their children and grandchildren. I would be better if donald trump is present. they had and I dont want to have to defend them. Could I have no idea why anybody could be fooled by donald trump, but that's why they? mode of data about reform because they were raised. I know these people, I letter they sleep, my ass, a mere know them, like the back of my hand, that's why we have to be settled in our analysis, as we just demonize ear people that we just
we would really underestimate their complexity, we'll never, but one reach, will tell me what you when you got arrested what you're whither. I can't remember. Ok, will you write over now He would rather not yeah. I'm I've turn their pay. Ok, yeah! I just was like in talking about the the wording moments in terms of and sending ideology or or at least giving some kind of empathy towards it appears widely and instead of a racist that you eating Were you able to do well? I didn't want to ever actually or appear to profit from an event that I thought was an aberration, what imagine me as a poster boy for police brutality than I did get me a lobby admirable each person here. I was jail within In our view it was
Well, the harvard professors and even the legal counsel of the university everybody realize they made a mistake. They just had to figure out how to get out of it and then here comes brought to the rescue bringing us down for a beer yeah. The whole point was designed to make it go away, so but it did make me very very sensitive to the abuse of the police, and reform and I am a passionate advocate, a prison reform and I am, I participated in a programme tempting get books to prisons church it's very difficult to get books surprised. He should be very easy. You can get it's getting difficult to get books to students. Yeah are well my one of my books has been banned in texas and guess what it's a chronology, honoured isn't a listing. Five hundred years of african american history from the first black man to set foot on. north american continent, one garrido, who is a free black man. I can keep the door
You know through obama, and the book has been some would say. But what do you make that man? I mean it's like adherence? Why some makes me want to bomb my fundamental principle? Is it any further most censorship, including cancer culture, is offensive. Censorship in all of its hideous forms, is to art and free expression, as lynching is to justice, and if you think of the two things that way it allows you to. You know understand that you should never tolerate any formal sense, but but this seems to be completely to to. two programme or reprogram young people around a very specific idea of history, absolutely and designed to whitewash due to whitewash the hissing them of the american people, and we have to fight against that look. My whole careers been based on integrating the curriculum writing as
Abolishing the bright black presents, as you said, within the cap, of american literature. World literature, on the one hand, and our presence with in the wave of can history, because american history has all always been about race and race relations, from the get go but began tell american issue without telling him of his right, but it just seems like you know that the telling of that history, as per es person and as somebody who had seen the arc of of some progress. Have we ve now arrived seemingly the worst possible manifestation of it, but at the same time I am a consultant with evelyn brooks higginbotham to the college board and we have the first a p course in african american studies. So that means that we're about to experience a revolution in, teaching of african american studies in the schools through all in all the kids who take a peak horses watching a p
events, placement. Ok, you know, so you can take a course in p history abc gotta, be gifted to know the truth, so that you will, unfortunately, incumbent upon all of us who love freedom in the history of democracy in this country to fight any attempt to censorship any all these school board. We have to take him on, but that I can't just right in a bid page peace for the new york times, which are about fighting at the granular yellow. Now, I will give my dear, but he, but like you used to be censorship was based on some. You know with somewhat vaguely moral idea about christian values, and now it seems to be thoroughly rooted in white supremacy. Oh it is, it is about whitewashing. why? Yes, look now body. You know this, I see Every week I had the pot most popular show nonfiction syria, he be every week. I have to tell people uncomfortable things about their path here,
I dont judge them. I don't do that yeah get on Christopher Walken. Did his family tree. Two brothers, bakers, german. The wind comes united states here once these haha. Well guess one is doing stayed home in germany. I turn turns a page and there it there is a nazi hata uniform here. I don't do that to make him feel bad eddie. I ve said that a naturally assume, he asked that family state in germany was under your conscientious objection. We well yeah, but the point is not to make people feel bad. It is talk about the complexity of. I know road history but wakey, and I appreciate that I was talking to my producer this morning about taking in the information in in your new series the making Like amerika, I mean you, I I
I don't know the the specifics about a lot of things. I know where my heart is, but it was all new to me right and you know- and I had you know, I had a a great uncle and aunt who work I can communist and I had the the the entire collection of w e b, the voice ye of all his writing right and they yeah, and they had the do. I got free Angela buttons. You know your red diaper, baby kind, while by virtue of that might write, was exposed to it. Still might my mind, knowledge and I've been sitting there as a fifty nine year old guy who, who tongue for information and having these realizations watching your series and watching him burn the series about them.
each of this country and then I'm realising alongside that, that this is exactly this information. Not not not the history of slavery right, but the history of the black experience in this country is exactly what they're saying cannot be caught, but that's why it's incumbent upon people. I can people like me, people like stanley, nelson aren't incumbent upon us to keep telling the story are over. You know there's an old him. I love to tell those thoughts, regional yeah Jesus. What? If what, if it's fine loved to tell the story of the people and the african american people, and whether its both the african experience on the continent in Europe, or in the new world- and you know what, as long as I have an outlet through pbs, I'm going to keep telling millions of people. I know millions of people I know cause. They stop me on the street and talk to me, but do you ever reach people? Do they stop you on the street and say, like you know what I was a monster
and now I m not now I'm never had that experience but I'd like to, but I've had experience when p I'll say, and we will come is against me. I was a bus or not, but I've had recovering monster behave. Well, I have that had the pleasure, but I have had over and over people with making Amerika, great again hats, soya, shirts or donald trump. Stop me and say I don't like your pilot, expert. I love your show and I go well. That's good enough for me brother. Thank you very much. He I I hear they said. Can I have a photo? So, of course you care I'm not going set myself above with the ideological bully. I dont think that we win interviewing someone for job. Ok, you many people in your staff, your put on your crew, just me and my produce Would you ever ask your producer who she voted for yeah yeah? I would we. I have sixteen people worker who work for them, it's a. I have no idea how they vote them. I presume that they voted
or obama- and I presume, vote over Biden, but I've been there isn't much. You know I get after I get that professor, but why? What what I don't, what I our time sort of way, and I appreciate your optimism and I also appreciate that you're doing what you do to do that, what you think is important and two to educate and to hopefully it shed light on the truth. I get it yeah, it's just. I guess I'm stuck in it in an ideology. In a point of view, run like what's ever gonna be enough right, and in a you know I need you. You need people like me and I people like you. We need people pushing protesting in it, like me in the institution. Ire David remnant, use a metaphor. It quivered alleys his memorial service of my heroes, the effort first black good evening, army under Jimmy carter and remedy, the editorial freedom, another yorker said you know you know, go inside the castle of lowering the shirt. Bridges
I guess well, as people storming the gates outside the I get it and my role is to be inside the system fighting for change. This is, as I discuss, with Cornell. This is the second front in the history of american culture. Wars, for I am rate it was in the nineties. We were He trying to get black authors like soaring person and tony more into the Norton anthology american committed. Ok, we did that yeah, so what's happening. twenty years later now, they're trying to ban the nowadays, we integrated so we hope It's ironic, if you think about it this, and said o culture. Wars is about banning the textbook that we successfully integrated in them how ironic as what's ironic, but how does it make you feel it? May If you like, we gotta fight harder. We have to fight to keep those textbook
or being bent no textbook should be banned. I get that and we have to fight, but that he's telling the truth. American, his right. Ok, there you go, but I mean curriculum can be decided. Yo yeah it's like he does have a fine line between banning and saying like well we're, not teaching that in the curriculum, that's true, and until we take on the the school boards in texas and places where have you got the you got there he got to do. We have the horses to do this. Who are these people? Absolutely? We have people fighting at every level, just regular people who if they're rights to be exposed to the complexity. of the reality that that is shaped, who we are, but you have four against that those people who really need to be celebrated and break the people fighting at the grand your level. The people were fighting the level of the school board? Of course it wouldn't you say to me: it's like you know, cause I working yama comedian. I see that there is
give them a comedy around tribalism, asian and aunt, I woke and woke, and whatever you want do what, but, but that all that stuff is a lot of it. bull, shit right. You know a lot of it is masking like when you get down to the gradual level. Most people don't even pay attention to that new that sure they do so like to just caught up in this sort of like cortisol, driven you'll argumentative. You know you're wrong. Your woke, I'm your aunt. I! What, with whatever that look censorship from the left is not it that's a pernicious, essential dragging out I'm not to answer culture is just as of answer to me as censorship is sure, because it's just another form of censure. I get that. I get that but like both of those sites, you right is- is servicing something much more new fair. It is and that's why we have to stand up against both the matter. What form it tat was no matter censorship, one of the most important shaping experiences of my years. My pants get this
Amy subscription to playboy magazine when I was fifteen years old, and I actually course I'd like to the picture but I think she read the interview I fell in love with Lenny bruce yeah Lenny. I never heard a lonely, berea and fifteen. I wear piedmont. West Virginia, I couldn't even gaudy here it here. uncensored routines right a comedy clear, but I just was so inspired by the way he fought censorship, the dead use the profanity is talking about, and I get all that. But my point around the censorship is like all. Censorship is bad, okay, but some Yours consequences to what one says he ain't, to you to decide whether you're gonna say that yet that's in in that's a reality that took the three own in that's the way. Unfortunately, in it, because a social media and other things
there, the in its gates happened on both sides, and you know there s. Somebody on tv said something that the christians in, like aid, mobilise an entire army of people to write letters. Another that's called democracy that I get it democracy yet right in that happens on both sides to right. But I think that when you have people that are servicing an ideology that is ultimately perhaps racist and questionable outta there, they might not know that, but if they can be appropriate. If you got a comic that servicing and aunt, I woke agenda, and then you got Tucker karlsson, quoting that comic and then you you ve, got marjorie taylor, green sort of taking that joke out of context and poor doing it at a rally that would make me if I were the person tell me joke reflect on that's right. What I'm saying right, but I don't want anybody, be able just to tell them what I'm saying is that there's a lack of reflection right, a lack of reflection and that's no. If I I have taken
okay, I'll, give you an example. Yep there's a lot of controversy over woman king be I saw that yeah. I read. I read by liked viola Davis here a lot, but thou may there was the hit that obey was one of the worst slave kingdoms on the african continent. They did not rob against the slave trade, because they did to feed Oreo the kingdom of oreo when it says right, but they continued with alacrity to conquer rather pay. And sell them here, that's very important, but when I did it very important to tell the story truthful and he s not too but rose coloured glass on the way they do in that movie. I care about when I told the story of the after the war and the slave trade, the pbs, accurate documentary and nineteen. Ninety eight here The black community ali Missouri was a scholar, gave a us to which he said. I suppose we should. Issue a fatwa against gates because
I said that I was lying about the afghan role in the saviour here's effect overwhelmingly they are african ancestors, who were shipped across the ocean were captured in wars by other black people, african continent, we were raised the thing that white your white ancestors, yet somehow my black ancestors were out a picnic on a sunday right, if you're white as a job that will push you through a net autumn and they ended up in a plantation, mississippi, forget it it never happened. I may rarely over what historians estimate that ninety needed ninety five percent of the africans I got this figure from the historian john thornton. This footnote, daddy africa, captured in the same J were captured by other africans. Other black people in where they were whole economies like dahomey, constructed around the slave trade and that support
to tell the story, but by the old tried to censor me and ninety nine, eight men. Now, even in that film, which had- while Davis's kind of blow. You know Rosa who had been fighting with dreaded, I'm being hyperbolic, of course she is saying no. We need to get away. I write showing our brothers as well that with us for the end of the movie and felt lovin disingenuity, even inside and out and even over the sleigh J d who may went for another but sit series of decades. after so these. Are you saying that there they ain't it? Oh yeah, the the sort of injecting american black identity. The the people of of the community are on some level were like. Is it necessary that you tell that story? They said that thank you for bringing me back because they said in nineteen. Ninety eight now this has all changed. because now you could see woman king date, our open about the african role in the slave trade. They join represent, viable Davis is being rose, part.
right through to the end of the drama that yeah right, but in eighteen. Ninety eight no they don't want me talking the abbe. I guess what they said mark for they said what white races, gonna use it against sets are ok. You are telling a secret don't have a right to tell it secret because it will be used against and sure enough rightwing people did My series in the book of women but too bad. It's a fact. I can whitewash history its better, to know how black wash his black waters, is to know the history, the slave trade and to know, hold him at least bad, that african elites, or just evil and as corrupt, but european right and I, but I think the point is so you bring it down to
this is a human reality, a human rio? Ok, why shouldn't? Why should black people be less complicated, but I get it nonetheless garuda? Then everybody else, but at break out of the other. I understand that I think it's it's it's it's important for me to hear that in this so that cause is something that you know when you get involved with a cause whatever it is in. You think it's righteous right! Ok, so at which we both been in, and I think we're on the same side of things of course that that there is this idea sort of like? Will you if, if you say that you were gonna, lose some points here and were right on the precipice of of of something: is it that important death? Do you have to tell the truth about? Do you did a hill drew, do I have to tell the whole drew you have to tell the whole truth about how twelve point five million africans were shipped across the atlantic ocean, and I said yes,
even if you go to issue a fatwa against where you not took em all on all these black nationalists. In these radicals, who said that I was betraying a racial secret in the past, defending me was: wally sharing anchor the greatest. Arrogant writer in the history of the gods, who the first avenue yet the nobel prize in nineteen eighty eggs, who the new, been my professor at cambridge, then who is aware anthony happier my kids godfather and he took about men? It was like the cow we come to the rescue survivable today, as well as rights as right, because it was terrible that was, you, don't forget, being One of the worst times of my life was having so many people, my field say you have raised the curtain on a dirty dark secret, and by do
that your complicity with white racism, because I told the truth about the history of the african slave trade and I'm proud that did it and now that's become normalized part of the story of african history, and I could not in good conscience sensor myself and what say no this was at the time when condemnation of islam were, subsidizing, a book called the cigar relation between black seduce jews around the slave trade. This ridiculous another form of visible. A black version of the protocols with what is that about? How did that change so hard that you know the Jews became the enemy, the black people. Is it so it's a church thing man, you know. No, I am I was sitting I was watching. Can burns is nuclear series about them the holocaust and they american anti semitism, which were talking earlier, and I decided on on my list.
The new pbs documentaries. I did a treatment on here's your black seduce me- and I am going to tell the story because we are natural allies. If you look, the founding of the end away cp. It was done with cross, after the voter registration, dry registration and we need to reformulate that allow So I'm gonna make a film about its early harmonious period and then, when it fell apart in the sixties, it fell apart in the black poetic writing by getting the causes on both sides of the coalition, but wouldn't. But what was the foundation of it? Was it because it was if the old style sort of a you know. Global conspiracy, or was it like, you know, slum lords, music, business gateway you? How did you get the bad rap? It was what I actually need to make a film about it to understand it in in by everyday research. You guy now by just have anecdotal evidence and I've read a lot and some other form is that you said it was
like activists wanting to be independent of the bible, were funding them and of their right. Why we hanging around the on which use YAP warrior or by wire hang around white people period were only I think, that juice. I caught up in an anti time in a white ideology, because a black power, in the black arts movement- and you know, but but there are aspects of the coalition still exists. I'd like to see it reformulated because we need all the allies we could get with. Donald trump and the right wing
We only people in the wing right when now you got your conny out there being crazy with the anti semitism out of nowhere. Whatever is gone on his head, your word whatever is going on here. I do I get it but like with like what he would do you finding within the low, though the world of black intellectuals. Oh, I don't find any pernicious. Nobody like what is one of the fight you're fighting. We within the within the within the black world, now right now pay obama, everybody is focused on the rise of white supremacy voters, suppression of the january six We are insurrection and the forces that are at part of that. That's what we're all scared to death and we're all focus on that That's what I'm focused. Also one of my a big concerns, as I says, prison reform, but I also I am worried about the supreme court,
affirmative action. Just like roe wait, I'm afraid affirmative action got his happiness at in this session. It could happen. This session I wouldn't be here without affirmative action. I'd be a doctor back and people right cause, I'm gonna howard, now having been pre met. and now you're gonna yale and then the cambridge and then have. woolly, sherry sharing and anthony appian. They tell me no europe expand your going to go back and be a scholar, yeah, yeah and Toni morrison wouldn't be in the northern fl. She would have made it yeah, even without me. This has been great thanks. Man was good talking to you thanks for doing it, you feel. Do I feel fabulous good will you, go smart guy, exciting to talk to informative, making America is tuesdays on pbs stations and streaming on pbs digital clap, please stay here. The second way.
ok, listen! Emmy! Folks, don't forget to sign up for deputy of plus subscriptions if you want to listen to the show ad free and have access to every single episode of wmd up on your podcast app and for full marin subscribers. You also get weekly bonus content, quick on the in the episode description or go to deputy of pod dot com and click on w e f plus next week Monday jeremy strong and on thursday RON Carter german. I had a good conversation about actings in earnest, guys, a serious guy I enjoy ron carter is one of the architects of modern jazz he's in five year old, jazz, double basis and he's the genius and he's a great tribute to all some music on on some something upward, two thousand two hundred records. It was exciting. I got to see him in new york. I also Jeremy, strong on the plane to new york, so at bay, good talks.
got. My shows that the booms where here in london this weekend in the next week at the vicar street in dublin on Wednesday october, twenty sixth, when I back from ireland em in Oklahoma city, at the tower theatre on Wednesday november. Second Dallas texas at the majestic fear, on thursday november third, san Antonio, at the tobin centre for the performing arts for two shows on Friday november forth and houston at the culling theatre at worthy centre on Saturday november. Fifth, there I'm in long beach, california, carpenter, performing arts centre on Saturday november, twelve eugene in at the halt centre for the performing arts. Friday november eighteenth and bend oregon at the tower theatre on Saturday november nineteenth in December, I'm in Asheville north carolina at the orange peel for two shows on Friday december. Second and then nashville and the sea I met the James K, pork centre on Saturday December third and my hbo special taping. Town hall in new york city on thursday december eighth, go to deputy, have pod dot com.
flash tour for all dates and ticket info, and before we go a word from our sponsor better help if you're thinking of give therapy. Try better help is a great option. It's convenient, accessible, affordable and entirely online get matched with a therapist atrophy. Not a brief surveillance, which therapists any time when you want to be better problem. Solver therapy can get you their visit, better help, dot com, site, W e f today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better! Http dotcom fresh w e, F morgue, our jams now from the vault. This is me and Dave Alvin from the blasters playing how you dream europe where do they see taken It's company
been alone leave. You learn to tell me: you are come here of emergency The whole way,
you, gotta ask the pretty asked what they were saying that if you, let me help you get, the das is brown. I still got your little girl. You should have been in movies. Have you sound just like faith saying you know some less quiet were ass, ready ass ever see. Let me I'd like to know what it looks like it. When you get back. Maybe dream is to tell you is that you ve never heard the c, I a dream and furthermore they were in bed when you get back baby dream gun. Let me tell you that you never did you see? What's the line you remember you can hear my god alone will have another drink lawyer, certainly about another drink words. Then you gotta go see it didn't tell. Anyone really is what they were saying. Let me walk across spoke before in eighteen. Eighty six, you could hear of gray, outspoken arson
Transcript generated on 2022-10-22.