« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 617 - Laura Jane Grace

2015-07-05 | 🔗
Laura Jane Grace, founder and lead singer of the band Against Me!, tells Marc about her experiences as a trans woman in a punk rock world. Laura tells Marc how she got her start in music, why punk rock was such a natural fit and the many ways her life changed as she transitioned.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
All right, let's do this, how are you what the burghers, what the fuck bodies, what the fraudsters, what the fuck billy's, what the buccaneers, what the fuck a nazi hides mark and how are you kay everything good Are you running? Are you driving? on the train? Are you I'm cooking or cleaning out, let's go Ok, I don't know how you are listening to this are where you listening to it. I just talk to somebody. where I met at a party the other night fourth of july, and she said that some of these episodes were were words, so moving that she would Debbie move to tears. and she had to stop listening to the podcast at work cause you didn't think that when she told her co workers who is listening to music, that they were buying it and she had to keep her
it together. Her job, and I took that has very high compliment- some of these things are emotionally compelling. But I add that I can help her distract herself from her job anymore, but dad, but it was for good reason, can plug first, because I got these shows coming up in bed, boulder colorado Friday July, twenty fourth at the boulder theater at the paramount theatre in denver colorado on Saturday July. Twenty fifth, and I like some people to go more doing. Ok, but a benign more people can I do I don't always know people known coming. It doesn't seem that there's anything I can do to get the word out. as efficiently as I might want to telling you now bolder Friday July, twenty fourth and however Saturday joy, twenty fifth, that's that that's how that goes. Laura, jane grace.
is on the show today she is the singer for the band against me. Pencroft. ban, has been around for a lotta years. I knew nothing about them. knew nothing about her. When I got the the anchored in the mail. I don't even know who who sent me the record, but I put it on, as I do many of the records I get most of the records. I get and I listened to what I might damn singer means business. This ban means business. Does a lot going on here there's something underneath all this and the the album was called trance gender dysphoria blues. still had no idea knew nothing about it. And it turns out, laura Jane graces, transgender. and its relatively new
that she is laura jane grace and I became fascinated with that, because whatever that struggle was in my mind when I Is there a little bit? A research really informed this record that this, Record was about you know why change, real conflict struggle and and identity and I was. Nervous, I don't know I was nervous, but I'm I'm awkward in I've, not its I'm sort of an old guy. When it comes to this day, politics around it and social And- and I and I didn't know if I was gonna talk right me- I think it's new, I just it's not in my everyday life. Necessarily, it seems like the younger people who kind of came up with it up with it like that,
I am dating, Sarah, who spent a lot of time in san francisco and cheese, are in her mid thirties, and it was just it just is what it is, but I seem to have missed that or perhaps out just in stand of comedy clubs. Entire young adulthood not out in the world, but I was was nervous in a because I've I've I've made I've. I've set, look You can say whatever you want this weird thing about about words, names, the things that are that we have all the out of culturally, be there the inn in this. This sort of reflect back to my conversation with the president and to some of them The type of feedback that comes around words is that Censorship is is really cultural, its aids,
there's no law saying you can't say anything, you can say anything you want. Free speech does exist. You can say whatever you want to know that if you say something there, is hurtful or incense live objective, buying hateful. you're, going to feel that you can have answer to it perhaps, but it it's not taken lightly, and then I understand why you know there is an argument that liking and people should be so sensitive or or what's it what's happening, people should be able to take the it or what but they drew. The matter is no. telling you you can't say anything you might end up only hanging out with people that say that, because there Only people, you can say it too, and then you just going to have to assess is that the group of people you want to be hanging out with an in. Are we in the right place with things I mean I'm I'm a comedian, so we You can say words that our culture,
inappropriate hateful objectified, and say them to people that that they may be in in utter sends directed at, but those people have a sense of humor about it, and that is part of europe. our relationship with that person. That's fine, but you, you know if you say them, if you defend your right to say then to a large group of people, You better have a pretty good defence on some level, but I had a thing with the word: the treaty. I believe I talked to repay about this who then demanded the word and and got his own flag from it, and and yet in my mind it there is. It just seems to me that that words come and go. words there. There is something about social democracy, a cultural democracy that eventually you know public opinion movies path. Out of respect for four
usually minority that was being dehumanized by the language. You, don't say, chinaman anymore, You don't say wop trainee. you seem like an innocuous one- even me, but but it as as culture evolve, the community's grow. And demand the respect they deserve. As people maybe the swaying bothersome. Maybe it are feelings, maybe eggs and feel less than. But no one thing you can say anything just away. Cultural democracy works and social dimension works is eventually are like well. You know what this this this word is is is heard foreign and it's the human. I singing and it's making
a community of people, feel a shitty about themselves is not easy for them to begin with, but they can say it expensive that there that's does just that, there's just part of the year the way it goes but to demand equal rights on that. Well then, you can, after, really explain where that coming from your need to say that whatever that may be, but getting back to dialogue and grace coming over. I just needed to know there was The things I needed to know- and there was Two things are needed to know about her. There's a lot things I needed to know about. My engagement and interaction with the trend, gender people. and you know I I want to grow. I want to be up to speed. I want to be britain did it's hard. It's a hardship to make around
Damn you have just changing habits of especially word wise, a minute! Look! It's! It was hard. It's hard to let go of certain words. He, especially when the guy will punched whom I mean you know, I I took out a lot for me to let go of retard. the black I got for that was from families mentally challenge, people it's it's hard for me not to use the word cunt, but I never use it for women. I only use for men in and I'm still not quite passed that sometimes enjoy. You know calling it a guy account on twitter. Sometimes I enjoy it and it's hard it's hard to it, that treaty was not a big one that I used a lot so that one wasn't hard to to shift out to rotate out.
But know we almost make mistakes. I said gypped the other day, and someone said you know: that's that's too. is derogatory against gypsies, gypsies and india. My first response that I really really is there. Anybody really upset about that gypped. So I jus down, but habitat, is Emily. I'm ok, you're, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, I'll I'll, be aware, I'll be aware now which a night and I can take that add of rotation. Because once you start doing that in once, you being aware of those words it sort of opens to experience things in a new way, it is, opens up a different type of respect it takes down a wall that sort of a defensive or based on lack of activity and it opens up a little bit and, now is very open here. You I liked lord Jane graces work but tat, but
nervous because I didn't want to be an appropriate in terms of how I handle conversation around what I needed to talk about, which is what we want What happened inside of you to make these decisions? I want to know, I want to feel you feel. I think I think I did all right. I think so, I'm going through stuff doing some summer cleaning. And folks folks. I do try to listen. Did this interesting thing about know? Sometimes things get through, get a lot of our work, which I always keep in in I'm running out of space to two. To put it up, Pritchett all of your creativity and a very flattered by even though the president side is narcissistic, alot of pictures of me or pictures that you guys do here in the area. garage All the cds that come from you personally in the vine other comes from you personally. I tried to listen to more
the records gsm, indirect cds, I'll go through by make snap judgments I'm just telling you this. Sometimes things get through. I will listen all the vinyl at least once for a bit. And allow the cds and sometimes things get through. I against me, trains Your dysphoria blues got through and they are on tour right now against me unto her you gotta against me. dot net for tour dates. You can get transgender dysphoria blues, and you can pre order, their new live album which comes out september, and they ve got a very the very prolific ban. There's a big catalogue there. So now now gonna talk debt to lord Jane grace,
The I actually put all my stuff in storage right before I left on this most recent jaunt just cause. I was like my landlord wanted to raise the rent and it was just like screw it. This is ridiculous, oh my god hang like whatever that's crazy, luria yeah! Well, that's that's! What you gotta do you'd make, who make a living as a musician. You know what I mean I can do you have a house, will I I own, a house with, with my actual clear divorce so like iona, how in florida that I rented out what part of florida, ST augustine, oh really but it'd, be beyond like having a house there, I'd been in chicago for since, like two thousand and thirteen or whatever, in an apartment, in an apartment yet in in chicago, since two thousand and thirteen yes august of two thousand and three that's when he put up with the wife. That is when it all and to share everything, got fucked five has a tendency to do that is sometimes you you ve got,
here are some of the dramatic shifts in the last few years. That's understated yeah, but like here's. The thing is that when I was tunisia I know we have a lot of comic fans and people were excited to to have his talk. Is it? I dont know where I got the new record drank the transgender historiae blue but it was sent to me by your label or somebody where our own label, so I got it, cool you have it, you didn't send it to me, no less. Maybe our management did or publicist I dunno or something like that. All I know is that, like I get a lot of records you know and- and I get a lot of records sent to me- and I in tune but this one on and mike what this sense fuckin real like in the like and I'll listen to records. People sent me and they don't always click for whatever reason I do too yeah right and you just put it on you're not going to listeners again yeah, but this one Like my I wasn't doing an outside there's an earnest angry, interesting shit on here,
and then and then I kind of did a little research into you know my who has this person and then then like when I own, I or I think I actually tweeted, that I like the record, and then everybody reside all you gotta have or on it and then I realize you have this following and you ve been you ve been around for a while, and then I had to go back as I do and I gotta by the other records. Yes, you sold a few records asked his age But the interesting thing about is right. The end set to work up this forum, mostly cheer up and say this morphia or some other rely right. Why I didn't know what exactly was, but it's like a fairly familiar state to any creative person. It's uneasiness in a depressive anew in his right mind about the opposite of euphoria. Okay. So but seems to me that, despite the title of this, record in whatever you ve gone through recently, that make for fur someone who was gravitated contract is for it was something
with all your life, your stuff, sure I mean it was what push meets upon crop just cause. Punk seem like such it was it was I got you know yeah, studs and spikes on your left jacket and a mohawk erratic yeah, so we're by the word. You grow up south florida naples, florida sad anointing about I know far too, like sometimes I get a little weird about forward about my mother will lie on their will. Do a lot of people's mothers live in full voting rights, but like a like there's there, there is an element down there. In my mind, like india, we ve gotten, madam, if ur busting afforded by some people, as they did So I guess it's the end of the line down there, yet a lot of ways mentally and physically present people for sure and well that was very much the perspective growing up of, like you are at that The line and the only way to look was north can right unless you wanted to swim alike, Lee eradicate or even ali naples, yeah, and that was lacking pre internet days. So it's like no bands over toward down there. There was no pre existing punk, seeing that was when you really
the kind of venture one thing when you are called you, I am thirty four and in what was your family, like I mean where, where where, where were they doing down there why'd you end up there. I grew up in a military family and my parents, divorce, and I was like twelve thirteen years old, some I moved with my mother and my younger brother in with my grandmother who had retired to Naples florida so that was it yeah. If that doesn't sound great. No, I mean it was not a good experience. Well, we we moved from naples, italy to naples, Florida and I lived in ITALY. Then, at that point for, like four or five years, as you know, we really had gotten accustomed to that, because it was probably like from grades like, like second, eight. Until like fifty six grade she now the high and there's an american baser, there is, and what can? What was? What? What was your dad and the military use a west point graduate. So he was a major in the? U s: army loudly is historic. Ah, he retired twenty years and then he retired outside a fort leonard wood and misery. Really and you guys he has talked to me since I came out every haven't talked since I came out at city.
came, the is there now is your process. Is there to processes of coming out? I guess there is when somebody who by does interviews- and you now have a public persona there- the private and the public share right when you say coming out as a transgender person yet, and that was what that that becomes a relatively obvious, so eventually right. Well, that was The point was the co I hadn't come out before. Anything was relatively obvious, whereas I thought that I would like especially- having you know. I play a band of a career and, like people the punk sooner in general kind of homophobic than rice excess. So if I would have not come out and just started like wearing eyeliner expressing femininity, I think people have been like you know why or on accepting that, if I had just said look, this is going on me. Can you please fuck,
I feel like how, through the assynt, just like you know, maybe it'll be weird. Sometimes I'd might not look totally great all the time you are right. This is what it is. I know ahead of time so, but it's sorta funny, though, like in in my mind that that, like real punk rock pier as if you just started showing over thy liner and stuff they might as yeah. They might even think that you were moving toward some other type of music. Oh totally, we're like a green day green day is a great example of that I mean that was the first. The first punk show I ever went to hear people make fun of billy, Joe, sometimes for making eye for wearing eye area, which is totally homophobic and totally transphobic and fucked up. But it's also it's also like I. I think it also represents another kind of music. I mean you seem you make up more in god and in rock and roll, and I think maybe punk is sort of supposed to be just raw, right. I guess I mean it depends on what kind of perception upon grog you had. Unlike is like, if you look back at like lineage upon bans, leah susie, soon the ban she heard arrow punk better. You know like there. I, like I, mean
the cure had elements and puncture are starting out. You know, unlike their use just be a wider variety of what was able to interpret mike nest, social fucking distortion. Another state of mind is, like you know, an in eyeliner the whole thing, because I talked him who I talk to my quite recently and there's like because there is a punk rock style, but the eye the original punk rock was really just about doing whatever the fuck. You wanted toad and write. What attracted me to accept seem like it would be more of a safe space, emu area and a lot of the like, especially like late seventies, english peace, peace bans are really an anarchist politics here that I got. I was really drawn to that just because that was even way more liberal and way more about. Like gender liberation and smashing you know. It's me we must state that they happened. I got early, I mean you come into that they have their readiness to AL jack's by then right by the time you are coming to light. They ve been around a y yeah other, funny to think about that stuff, because I think about that in, like relat, like relative to my own career ya, like ok, now then a ban for twenty years and how like twenty
See I, unlike the that it doesn't seem like his white of a gap, even though it is as long term compared to when I was listening to those bands from the late seventies, early eighties, where I like only ten years different. I guess cellular idea so so you, your dad imams, put your thirteen he's in the military. He talk talked to you now what in light three or four years yet, but you are talking before that yeah, I mean you know it's tough like will mean when my and split up obvious like I was a definite separation, and you know that, like it was a dividing thing in my family, the kind of ways relationship never really good. Our dinner, were you closed when you were a kid I mean well, you know the military is really a thing. You know end of year, someone who's gonna, win through went to west point has been army for a long time. Like you, generally being really emotional, hey express ever close. You know like open, like that, is not afraid ray. I, like it's just kind of a cold, especially when, as a german background to really heath comes from a german background border, your mom, what kind of
I don't know what I mean like, how is your relationship with her, which he, the buffer, yeah, and I mean I was really close with my mom. I was the first kid or whatever, how many with your brother, but there's two. He is worse here, he's in south florida. Really, he's like see if I wanted to start smoking. When I was thirteen years old, I would probably been his height he's like six seven here, you're pretty tall six two but again I would have been another. Five inches of snow started smoking, but he like he, cracked safes for a living, and he owns his own business. Installing, like high end security system for people and security systems in south florida. So you guys get along yeah. We do Alright, so there you are you like what he eats. You get there when you're by twelve or thirteen naples and and what what's it? What's it like down there? I can't picture it is just a wasteland of what is it pretty? Well it you know, starting then was a real period of economic growth were. Like you know. During that period I think there are more millionaires per capita in call your county, florida
than anywhere else in the? U s and the two cities and in call your county or naples in a motley, a markedly being a migrant farm or community with like extreme levels of poverty around you know, sir, There is a real contrast and in general, like it was a return community sets an republic here, why retirement community that doesn't want youth to be that to be seen or heard rewrite area there. Wasn't there just wasn't a lot to do besides I get in trouble in right and what was Where was the kind trouble you again into you know It like small shit, like vandalism like go to a golf course, and you kick all the sprinkler heads off and stuff like that, and you know we used to rip. Had a hood ornaments of a car yeah. Stealing, chromium off of tyre yea, like that you're our like tat, your battery of carbon to host dumb shit now have guns. We have Pelikan me out of hay ball, gonzalo stuff, you know, and what was then what was the music out, but how did form your little crew, I mean as yet. I don't
your: what year we talk about seventeen. Ninety three are so somethin like that. So were you the the odd balls, the idea you and your friend that's where he the, but you were the punk rock It's totally and we went like I mean my group of friends that I kind of went into high school with like we met in middle school and like at first it was like you know. Listening to classic rock bands led Zeppelin the doors pink floor. It's always their era, and then like, but that like there is a real disconnect with delight hippie movement that we associated with that because we got beat up a lot. And it seemed like that by his light by jocks, like we were the freaks you know like in you sit together at lunch, but not the hippy freaks it- is all just psyche with other fruits. They like right is small population. So, as I escaped the hippies me off care and everybody sat together, but puncak appealed because It was seemed a little bit more about fighting back any like even if you're gonna get asked, throwing up a couple punches area so that, like I did you yeah
totally totally I mean you know to varying results. Hits it felt better to fight back. You know when fans were you listening to the first, first record is never mind the baltic sex pistols and then that lead in their the clash in like there's all those classic punk bans that you first listen. Do you like the dead kennedys in the media and then we kind of like gravitated towards what was more going on in the u s of like bands out on the west, like bad religion and rancid and of yeah area and then like just like. You know you either then you'd read the liner nets and seafood they thanked and then you'd go by record high and if you like them, you'd see who they found. They were routers right right when they still records and they weren't cds. Yet I did cities and vinyl, but I've always preferred vinyl. So when did you start playing guitar when I was years old, oh really, who told you that I who gave you the guitar I I guess I say money, let mowing lawns and they like got five bucks upon
in where I had. Where were you when you're mo ma's on ITALY yeah in ITALY? Really I ordered it out of sierra. The american lawn mowing kid. Yet anyway, he ordered. I have a sears catalog where we time travel. I did the one hundred and twenty five dollar got a sears guitar. It was a harmony, guitar, harmony, yeah yeah, it's at this year's. That's a sears brand is out of the sears catalogue. Oh shit, it was an electric. No, it was an acoustic you. What it's like time travelling behaving like a serious cattle, I knew no. They still. That was your idea. I guess you're everybody like. Where did you get it? We, you know when you, when you're on american family, the moves overseas really cut off and especially like then you're still really dependent on people back home and ordering things from Oh, so someone got it for you know I say that we all you'll get the catalogue. I saved my money sent away for yeah and I had to wait like a month. Then they sent the guitar and how'd. You learn. I took less from an army wife at first, oh really, a and c just taught on basin.
Yeah. No, no, she taught at her home, like we lived off basic everson, sir and you won over their new orange basics, yeah, just like once a week g, a c d ye than bar courts. I e know it: it's a mess though, because like learning honour and an acoustic like that, especially when you're a kid when you don't have strong fingers like those guitars, a basic I made for archery lifecycle uttering the still string totally in the strings, are like an inch off the fret border yard depressed down. So that was really discouraging and first was your. What will your first songs? I wasn't really interested at first like they cause. It was all like you know, whatever the guitar Y know, but the book they gave you was just like you know it was alive. Michael road is another. Shall I got it want to play that strike? I stuck but I never felt like I was gone gone bad. I can't really play this of the early and interested, but I stuck with it and
like. Finally, when when I was like maybe eleven years old, I started like playing in bands like georgia, with my church group. We started up bands and what a what kind of church where you and I it was a presbyterian church that my mother brought us to I have no idea. It was just more like when she divorced. She wanted to be social and there was like rothschild care sure it was and you didn't you didn't, grow up with the weight of god on you not not heavy. Now, no, that's good yeah, So now, when do you start to feel different? I felt ever my whole life. They utterly earliest memory sooner like all earliest memories like what are we to have. I, if I can like think of my three earliest memories, richard, like kind of just you know those weird disconnected visual impressive, and I remember, may be being three years old and like standing on the top of the staircase as the first one, and then I remember probably for five years old fort had texas. standing in the living room in front of the tv and madonna was on the tv and feeling assent.
Identity in watching madonna perform right, and it was like a weird moment of both like It's amazing. You know she's performing she's dancing. She singing you know like this is crazy. I have never heard before, and I like the melody sure, but then also a feeling of like I could do. two and immediately recognising, but like wait, I'm not that's not how people perceive there is a real enact towel three: four or five ha and then when then what our said that an after that I distinctly remember like within a year or two after all, She rose marries baby, unlike feeling I duly drawn to MIA farrow, because she had like the pixie haircut. I was like oh well, wait, maybe there's a chance for me, because I have hair like that. That's how my parents get my haircut, so maybe maybe I'm not wrong. Maybe I could grow up to be like that via you could grow up to be
a woman may grow up to be mia, Farrow's particular night yeah? Alright, I love the ambitions daughter mia then I fell a little short, but it's not over yet like all right, so you're playing guitar, you're, eleven and you're starting to get the hang of starting decide what music you like, eleven or twelve, oh no, I mean I gonna walk man when I was eight years old around when I first got a guitar and I started by metal. Tapes like I got deaf leopard hysteria was the first to know the guy was your music yeah, and that was like. Drawn to them, because I saw in them the beauty in the in their sacks me you're, like the music, did other some of it. Really. You know it's like looking at that. I mean you could find plenty of acuity and rock music research but you felt that right, but at the same time too, because I lived overseas, I was totally cut off from mtv, like I really was stumbling into stuff on my own. So, like I found
hit parade or magazine? I looked at the pictures and I was like I can't tell if these are boys or girls yeah. You know like and then sure I'd go and buy the tapes and and some stuff I'd like and some stuff I wouldn't be found that will a lot of what compelled you was the the androgyny of the people yeah. But then, like the bands I was really drawn to was like that and more than I list account to the guns and roses in particular was like my band. When I was a kid there, good band, they had an appetite it's great and I stand behind any allusions to should have been illusions should have been one record but other than that writing lies was good. I mean I, I got no problem with, I dunno what happened with chinese democracy, but I bought it, so I can criticize it. I know I bought it yeah. I wasn't. I didn't like it. I don't know that I listened to a twice. I listen to it. I bought a bunch of times, but I'd allusion that I listened to twice. So what was it? So? You re bending acts arose. Was your first record right now,
but I don't want to miss a time chunkier, so you lock into guns and roses at like eleven or what ten years, eight years old, that's one appetite when first came out, eighty eight or eight it came at eighty seven. I was eight years old and he's fucking singer compelling totally all of them a dolphin fly like I wore a sid chain because duff war, one before a new, he said vicious was right, so you, be primed by the time you got to the pistols with rock. I was. I knew a little bit Have we? You know everything if you isn't it guns and roses, any luck in it. That's all there, but, but when he started realising that this is your future, and when do you start feeling like I'm making an assumption in that as your creativity evolved in it. came what it was in. The first few records that your straighten with your self must have been happening, inside of that right, what I mean I made. The decision was what I was gonna do really
yeah like I dropped out of high school. When I was sixteen, I never had any doubts. I just knew this was gonna. I was gonna, do one way or the other, even if I was unsuccessful at it. This is what I was you. Never you never you never started playing metal that you never started. No! No, like the first bands I ever had like that. By that time I was more grunge bands like we'd cover, nirvana songs and pearl jam, songs, oh yeah, and then like at the same time, doing like pink floyd, songs or beatles songs, and then that was like and then we got into punk on. That's how you learned how to play. I guess basically with other people as places play the heads the how I can still remember to play songs from then I know how to play even flow, but I don't remember how to play some the songs. I wrote like five years, really with the array it does yeah. That's why it's a hit song yeah. I guess so because, like I mean like when I was
Into like some of the older staff, I give you a sort of fascinating to me that there you know that the the punk rock form by feels a wolf familiar like you like it in the sense that, like the clash or I can tell where you're coming from you, your singing a so your kind of raw and brutal and end in full of a type of intensity and anger that that is a rare and yet the us like anybody else but like in working at arc of your wife. I have to assume that the anger that you were feeling became much. defined with his new record fisher. I would also I mean it was. I was there. I mean you mentioned that a second go like really like may the anger levels I grow, and this for you grow as, like my ban. Progress was as we experienced six s mine as your further cast into because when we started out, we started out with really like specific ideals of being against. All that you know, and against me comes from what few being so ten years old and feeling like everything in the world's conspiring against you
and then you're pushing back with this music. So That was my outlook and you know we're really starting out of the way the ban started As far as on an acoustic guitar is because, like I don't have an electric guitar, so I played an acoustic guitar. The drummer didn't have a drum set, so we dumpster do pickle buckets made a drum set and that's what we did and we didn't have places to play cuz. It was south florida, so we bust down street and then eventually, like humanity, have you resent over that yeah? Well, that was the idea you know like, and that was what it was model. That's. How will that? I think? That's that's! How billy brag sort of started, I think, in the violent femmes kind. There is thoroughly and I was heavily heavily influenced by both of them and are really get those part of it again in the area. So so your buskin, and you're doing this, you doing your original songs. Yeah and their sort of so those are too. Couple of your influences, some clash in their share
clash and again, like although peace, punk grass ass the mob yak fucks, a pink eighty outcomes will later he can't really do that when the acoustic and in bucket right what, when I was fourteen years old, I got arrested and it was like life changing experience for me cause. I was like fourteen years old beat up by the cops charger possessing and a battery on an officer tried- is the dark convicted as a fallen by the tumblers fifteen years old, for why would I went to the bees fourth of July there's I like, ran into the wrong cops. I was a dirty, smelly, punk kid and I got lippy then, when they got up in my face and then they beat me up and we playing in a band at that point or not. Yes, I was playing in a band not against me, but I was playing in a punk band at that point. Ahah like vice, and I really like, writes passage yeah,
I guess I mean I'd whom see it common, but yeah. So I mean so what happened? Why was it alive? Training experience? I mean because I was fucked. She hoped I was fifteen years old and I wasn't ways convicted phelan, like I'd really already sealed my deal as far as what my options were for the future blighted, even though he tried as an adult, I was it into jail. Time did you now I got like a hundred and eighty hours a communing older. Unless I was on house arrest for a whole summer. You know I was
low jack to so where the view that much community service I worked in a hospital, and I volunteered in cardio wing like giving people like jello cups and water of David and walking on hungarian with a yellow card. I then I did habitat for humanity, and then I did. I got you can choose what you could do well. I just had a lot of ours who had to do a bunch of south and then there is this place, the conservancy that was, I can nature conservancy. So that must have been some of those sound pretty good like they could have been good experiences. I guy great things out of him, but it was like when you fifteen years old and you're in that situation. I scared shares in my money. I didn't have any money and their threatening you, like you're gonna, go to jail, you gonna go to juvy, I know, and I dont want do you know I want to hang out with my friends and play music right, so I go immediately had that weight on me. You know, and- and it was at that- like us up until then, like I had already gone into drugs and alcohol and stuff like that, was your shit I really like trip on acid- and I really liked coke and I really like smoking weed manner,
point when I got arrested, I just like sobered up and I was like sixteen years all you're trying to get focus get onto her. I can- and I was when I started play- is again that's what it's like more seriously and stumbled into against me. She stopped, the drugs and just full on focus, so that's where all that insane, nay If vocal energy comes from the clarity of pure anger, There, you step, but dimly He thought of it seems to me, like you, you know, maybe being present it was her or or maybe not fully in iraqi. I easing the the arc of it. It just seems, like you know, the first couple records are our full on and then at some point around a third I could you, you did become a little self aware and that you were shifting or your your perception of what you were really doing. Creatively shy. yeah in a lot of bad just had to come. I came with success because, like we can
from the scene. There was really about this. Certain things die. Why punk ethnic group in and in you guys, you honoured that by wait. There was no punk scene, like you did. What a lot of the bands are glad the guys I saw it ourselves yet put out on first two decades I mean there's a decade later from the original wave of those guys. Right, this is like war by you you did have the internet yeah yeah but it was coming as it was all happening in file sharing was happening in their eyes. All change it, but it was you know, like I was dealing with much different perspective than people must have assumed. I was dealing with and part of for me was always being recognising like that. I was dealing this, for you know are like that. I had that and so it like always skewed my perspective, that rights respect your these retrospect that you saying that with like I mean he's sure you hurt nobody detached me. You know, like I saw things like. Ok like this is my circumstance right. This is where I'm facing I'm playing in this ban these for now calling me a sell out because we moved to a slightly bigger indy label there. Given us all this,
I mean all of a sudden. We got a lawyer, we got a manager, we got a booking, your original fans are fuck ewing, you yeah and they're, like slashing our tires being really abusive, attacking a whole shows. So when you start out, when you put yourself, did your first record right first like to like a seven inches to twelve, and we put out just like in so that's right, that's righteous too! That crew did die. Why punk raccoon they they combine at your shows ning by your t, shirts, and write your climb bucks for a twelve and you're playing on bills. Did you spend any time opening for acts it? You respected, digest it'll get our own tours and went out into our own torres, so it was never lay and how shows play it playing in basements playing on the street still like playing. Sometimes you get a club git, but as a book and get yourself for the first, like four five say, there was never that this sort of, like you know they yield a bigger part ban, came into town. They need a punk opener neutrality in gains, though, where we move to new idea records existing no idea as a really good job documenting the punk seen there and they ve got a couple bands. I caught water music, less than jake that have gone on. To do things.
Yeah. You know they took a notice of us. We put out a record with them, and that was like the first step to a really small indie and already then people decried like sellouts, but then well then we moved to like fat records, which is like slightly big bigger. You know be a man that you know run by fat mike who we had grown up, listening and write facts, and then that was like even more intense wave of like your sell outs, you know like total, which has no effects was sell out at that point, because it was a bigger indie and then we started working with like fuck. Are these people they're punks? No, I get it, but at a certain point, do you realize, like we might have to lose that they'll come back around with no, I mean it was more just realized, the hypocrisy of it, but once I saw that hypocrisy of it than I like was like oh fuck. This that you know like do the punk thing think for yourself. These are my circumstances. This is what I have to do. These are the decisions that are right for me. There's nothing wrong with doing the things I want to do right, and so I wanted to be in a band and play for larger audiences, and Do that more mark, as we were touring like you know, four nine out of the year playing like two hundred. Some odd shows a year like driving hours,
into the ground, and most time we were homeless. You know like so eventually, you're like I'd, be nice to have an apartment. you ve grown up our own our right. You know, when I saw like that so around. The third that's the new label, but that's when, like yeah, we started getting major label attention and we got courted one whole round and like turned it down, got a bigger yo from like our andy and then went in like finally ended up signing with warner sire. So what was I record? that. We might cross, which record was the first record on the new able first I get on the major label, is new wave? Ok, so because, like ie like in our a few the songs, and it seems that like us, saying you know that these punk, or to abandon your they swam your tyres? Are they were mad that you were so out that you so realise the limitations of that. That of that outlook. Sure totally tony you're maturing, along with your success right in a way, was
killing. You know a man, it was healthy. That was like the one good thing I had gone for me now, so this sum the air, it's for you I imagine I had just for you for one reason or another so like you I'll content. You know. At that juncture, where you know you blow out you blow yourself out all the punk rocks yet and I was in a world where we were successful and he still funeral shitty. Then starts we combat something else. Not just about you know. Class warfare, or or then that is for you. It comes back yeah because that was the thing is like you know, you jump into this where you're, like oh shit, our bands getting like traction, we're going to go off and we're going to tour for three four years or something and then still unhappy and at first you are able to push? It is for each side because you able to solely focus on that. You know like I'm, going to be this person, I'm going to do this. We were well. Are you operating within the ban to me how, where was your sexuality I mean it was you know what I got my got married when I was nineteen years old and I was made
from when I was nineteen and we probably became estranged from each other when I was like twenty one, yeah them like twenty two's me three. I was going through the whole. Like oh shit, my marriage just fell apart like really. This is the first marriage or the one that just ended. My first marriage, so you've been married: twice: yes, okay, and so then nineteen yeah and so twenty two twenty three twenty four were like the last years of coming out of a marriage and being really fucked out, we're leaving out or sleeping around a lot. And here you are in a band, that's touring a bunch and just doing stupid shit right. So what gimme that woman at a bar one, honest read it. I mean it now. I met heard an activist for shock of the civic media center. I think an act of it and activists info shop, a non corporate press library, lending library and activists, space and gains o florida called the civic media centres where we met with what was apple What are they have their volunteer there? It was like an active is organizing, like everything from like women's group to like you know, radical bike workshops,
Georgiana, like a full service activists, training centre. our a totally Fighting against its regret. Basic attitude is that the abbot Elizabeth, that was the outlets at eighty one, that is a big one, we're gonna have to get a few, works out of the few booklets on capitalism. Noam Chomsky, luckily written about so yeah yeah yeah, good luck with that getting through the Noam Chomsky's did you read all his? I did. I read all the emma goldman author, Peter kropotkin. All that stuff see you are he's got a head full of it yeah. I I mean I I used to volunteer there and I booked shows there they'd. Let me book punk shows, and that was were against me just like play it all the time, because that was the only place. So let us see your singular political agenda was against capitalism and, in your mind,
I mean at the time it was really against, like you know the world trade organization at the time of like the nineteen. Ninety nine like riots in seattle are all that protest. Movement was really happening, and that was like all my friends who are part of that. I had like connected with an activist group in florida. Doing food bombs and we organized into something called fran, which was the florida radical activists, network and we'd meet up like once a month. All talk about what we had going on in this area for at an organised like rides to bigger protests or demonstrations against, like see an activist activists, your wife real. Really. one form or another year set for the earnest man That's an earnest puncture because, like I'm sort of fascinated with the whole the whole sort of like now, like like it. As I said the beginning, this record, you know when I read the lyrics. I listen to it. The division. You know it is not it's not it's very personal that because of of your transformation that no. You ve resolve some things in yourself and you.
Is there still a lack of understanding and there still a lot of reasons to be angry about you know how you and interpreted I personally or bring that same intensity that you see global injustice. You now to this very sort of your car, connected to this in a way that is in negotiable I'd like to think that a little smarter. Even then, like the politics I was singing about when I was younger. I I, of course, if you're familiar with like embrace he and mkhize band, your emotions are nothing but politics, and this is something that's really real to me. Things I was singing about when I was younger. While I felt the way I fell and he's still agree with it, I didn't have as big of an understanding our world view at nineteen years old, as I do now at thirty four, having like been around the world a number of times well yeah I mean I used to reduce dude political talk. Radio lefty talk, radio and at some point I realise that light from angry about these specific things? I know that I am angry so late to address the exit and shawl and personal foundation,
the core of anger exactly and in doing so so you're married once in that fizzled out. Then he went to heartbreak. When do you start? wrestling with the desire to to become a woman. Well like too in five or so, you know, I'd gotten, really fucked up on cocaine and then two thousand five out, like I'm gonna, be sober. I got sober. She went out in my right up the idea clean myself up and at the same time after having gone through a bout of like the way it works back then, was like these IX spirits. extremist fora and then like binging, encouraging like no, you know like I'm going to be a man. This is what I'm going to do, I'm going to pretend I do not feel this way and that coins I did with like signing a major record label deal and then you're, so I found that roller coaster but come down from that. You know when, like you do too records in there, not a success or anything like that. We went through this fucking lawsuit with the next manager. Things like you know, like friends,
shit happens in life and you realize, like. I still feel this way. You know I'm fucked up your uncomfortable and- and I did like I'm leaving this to set. life's a married. I now have a kid we bought house. You know like an I don't know who I am. You know right. So when you damn it when you got married that second time? you know was it you know a wee reacting to your feelings. Did you think that by doing that, you know you could sort of train yourself into that life. I think about it and just because I wonder if it's like subconscious, you know, because I would hate to think that, but I was really like you know I got focused, I got sober, I got healthy. I was like you know, I wasn't fucked up media that decisions and then I fell in love, and I will I didn't want to fall in love, but I fell in love and it was more that, like I fell in love and ignored, really being totally honest, probably about who I was as falling in love, you know and just like suppress suppress but
made me more and more unhappy as specially as like your kind of pushed into fitting this, like sis normative lifestyle of, like you know, husband, wife, kid cars in the garage, weird, how powerful that is, yeah and then you're like oh, my fucking god. like. The walls were just like felt. Like we're coming in more and more when, when you said you question, or you were in retrospect, trying to understand falling in love, meant now waiting, your sexual orientation always been towards women, then still so, it must be- I mean that's not to say I haven't made out with a couple of guys or anything like that, but I'm just like in in terms of I'm, not it's not a judgement thing it's just like wondering where the fight was like when you say he fell in love with her and you you, you sort of question whether or not that was a sort of like you whether was earnest or not, or whether you subconsciously, trying to fit into something averages. I just wonder that's the whole dynamics of that would be, but you just
four, because you're just being your existing at the time too, especially like I mean you have to realize that I probably didn't hear the word transgender until I was like, maybe even twenty six or twenty seven attempts revenue for every bright rank. So, like I didn't understand myself, it's not like I was carrying around. I still don't fucking understand myself, but it's not like. I was carrying around full knowledge of like this is who I am, and I have to hide this from everybody was like. Oh my god. I have all these feelings that are tearing me apart inside and I don't know how to reconcile them with with life and what I am doing and who I am you know like. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this. The idea of transition even like was a far off said that I'd only ever like you know, maybe heard about once or twice. We're all like for my were I'm sitting. I I'm not like I'm fifty one years, So so I missed them the movement in a way of of the trans movement. I mean I knew it existed, but now really you know in the forefront of of your gender.
politics and in also gender discussion total in this country, and I'm still like an old man when it like you. I had to be schools on the word tragedy yeah, I end in iran in then I I talked to rupaul, who loves that word by, but I understand very, like divisive word, no, I know I don't know. I get why any any like, I'm in no position necessary to use that. Why don't need to use a word? You know, but rupaul can write it up, but I so so now you're married and now these feelings are becoming oppressive, an end in completely outcome, so do you tell your wife, I did I came out but what does that mean that you knew when you come out like that? Would you say well like I want you know like I dealt with these feelings to the point where I was like this isn't going away. You know, so I was like what what is it to be a woman I need yeah like just like you know, transition
and the idea of whatever that meant of like coming out with the way I felt right and saying, like look, I'm transgender, I am a transsexual. This is the way I feel I want the transition- I don't know what that means, but I want to transition. Like I mean the level of of info asian out. There was like pretty like it's like you, too, testimonial videos. You know like a couple of funding, LO fi websites, that, like point you in directions, you know- and I was like living in l a at the time like staying up like watching these testimonial videos and it's like okay yeah. I think you can get on hormones. You know like okay, there's doctors that can do surgeries like I don't fucking know where to turn to sue you, but you were, you were like you were sort of. Like I gotta start this yeah, I mean your wife say, and I you know she said. Okay, like that's okay, you know like. I like. I just came out sir said like I'm, I'm I'm transsexual, I'm I want to transition and idols
she didn't know what have you been practicing transsexual? What does that mean for access to him? Factors in my transsexuals is of. Why me why you like value? I guess I mean like: did you dress, you know? Did you find in the dressing: femme shirt, yeah and totally and like that. But like I have a lifestyle that, like I spend a lot of time alone, and sometimes I'm like really by myself, like when I'm working with a band producing a record and I'm living in a hotel room or I'm sure, I'm on tour. I ever really separate life from that, so it was like. I was living two lives yeah. I was fucking living half a life in a hotel room and when I was in a hotel room, I was you know expressing the laugh out. I was her or wherever you put on, make up and night dressing and in like wearing their clothes, just address and where, in the close, where in women's clover the ark yeah, but it was it's about. I don't. I already had terrible experience, because you know you're you're in this like stupid, fuck and high stress situation. We are like ok, you know.
how to go into some shity department store to buy some clothes that I don't even want to wear really because it's not my style, but this is the only way I can fucking like relax and and real spress this this this fucking way, I feel too calm this tension that I feel inside of because otherwise I'm in a fucking like snap on someone Andrews, we lose it. You know, that's that's profound. So in then. I guess what you're saying that, because you were living these separate this separate life, and it was like really limited to these hotel rooms when who were working that it's hard, not who associate that with the idea of shame, oh yeah, I mean you feel like you're almost having an affair, and you are hiding something rio and it's like. Why can't I just can be, who I am whenever I wanna be, who I am hearing my home right, so you didn't Her tower moving your mind in your. I just need to like what pieces of clothing were, would be most comforting. What peace
of course, who think you're going through parliament asked or what he might rest. I wrote to you buys panties what he who panties is a gross word anywhere rosalie, where we just like whatever fucking, even like a fuckin woman's cut shirt, a woman's cut tend to do. I knew like anything to express femininity, yet you know you'd feel better, like you'd, be like ugh yeah, I feel like? Ok, I'm like expressing the way I feel, even though it it's like a weird fucked up version of it rights not like it is that that was even more dysphoric than just being I am now, but you know that choice as they experience being out with it. Now it's a totally different thing: it's not like I get off by going to a fucking department, store nice pair of panties and so into a hotel room in fucking, going to a hotel or rubbing them virtually no, no, and then I I didn't think that to begin with, but it was really the idea of
I think everyone who are most people deal with that a discomfort tat that seems like it can't be resolved right. and now you know you are able to address it so specifically and and and have to back in with that and not feel ashamed of it or or feel like a freak for other than be. I give you a hiding something. Tourism is a big, it's a big step right. History and to realize you had to take it and then to take it, is you know it's it's big is, I think, a lot of people. They have the same feeling just die with him. If that's the case, I mean well, if you look at suicide suicide statistics among the transgender community, you know it's like something like fifty per cent at least attempt you know: mets are it's horrible, you didn't know. But I've been slowly trying to kill myself for the past thirty four years of alcohol drugs. As a result, the value I mean I feel like that, is the unhealthy unite on you, don't do any drugs or alcohol anymore. I do but
I I mean now it's like now. It's just run now now now, no seriously, it is now it's just recreational and not fucking dysphoria in, like related, you know as you say, so, yeah. I guess you don't you feel tat. Others, year later, it may lead to a party to this park. I need a few years seo. You're you're, queer you're happy go the drug use I'm just talk about smoking little. We live out yet again, but they liked it like the lyrics in this fuckin record. Here deals with all that You deal with the suicidal. You know with the with the suicide of people that that can't live with air or whatever right, and you deal with your own sort of wrestling, whether you deal with that and I always assume that people write these from first person. But I get you. the idea of being totally closeted and being a bully,
and here is in this record and then the em, like the discomfort, this the first song like his, is really that that the transgendered that the title song describe with is like. Did to me was a powerful fuckin song. Man were that's a talking about like that experience in a going into those department stores are going into, like you know, whatever store when your perceived male and you're buying something in the red cash register is looking at you like your disgusting. You know. They don't even want to take the money out of your hand. But what about when? Even but what about now that the white, the I thought, light some of that song I mean that's not is not like that's gone. Why you like the idea that you have to you know you have to honour yourself and you have done, feelings and be who you need to be, but you cannot escape the judgment of of being
physically, who you are of other people right, but by owning it like I've, been able to like feel a lot more comfortable in confidence in a week in a fucking away in the in upon crock way of like ok when you're hiding it, you feel shameful, and that in turn makes you feel defensive closed off as opposed to being open about it and just being out there and being like look? I am who I am you know like. You may not fully understand that and I don't really care, but I am who I am and I have a right to be here. I have a right to shop in the store every right to do this. Do that, whoever or whatever I want to do when I don't have to explain it to you or justify it, you right, I'm just going to do it right and if you have a problem. Yes, I get it. Fuck Therefore. I hope you can deal with that problem. You know, whereas, before felt scared, and I didn't want to feel scared. You know what yeah it's it's. It's easy to feel scared. You you know you're going to like you want to be understood on your own terms, not misunderstood, because you're caught doing something right. we, like you, know, does anyone
Then you got an ear in that weird, explaining yourself position right, and that was something I thought about too. Having a kid where I was like, what am I going to be like fifty sixty years old and I'm gonna get caught? in like yeah. You know like being that, like that, I don't want that situation. You know how old's the kid my daughter is now five and how how is at all with the acts and stuff and we're not, in a good spot? No, not really, you know did, but did the the separation have to do with you actually you're engaged in the transition process. I mean there was something she couldn't handle and we now I mean it. I think it's all on me. You know
I had a suicidal nervous breakdown about a year after coming out, and I just like dissolved as a person you know I would like really these debating attempts suicide. I I did yeah, oh how how yeah pills alcohol a classic Well, you know go with the class, but but this is a year in a year after You came out and white what broke apart inside you. It was a combination of things. You know there was the the mental side were alike. Eyelids ITALY lost the foundation of why I was trans transitioning, because I saw that my marriage had like gotten so far away from me because I have been like. I was scared. You know it was working on a record. Do it transitioning publicly? I had a studio, so I was just like locking myself in my studio
ten hours a day working on a record which legitimately needed to do with it all slacker yeah. It also, I was hiding, you know like yeah and then and then eliza, like my marriage, had fallen apart and just like that crushed me, but then at the same time, to a sordid having like this rude reaction to the hormone replacement therapy, I was on, and so I turned out once I moved to Chicago and I got medical help that I've been living with a parasitic infection in my intestines and so at the time I had been on estrogen progesterone and spear owner lack tone, and so apparently the projector own had been began, birding into pregnant zone, which was causing these like crazy, hot flashes, and I was like waking up in the middle of the night and, like my arms, would be clenched to my chest and I couldn't take them down and I would be like burning of sweat. Take a shower, come out and be it'd, be like sixty degrees in the hood,
And I was just messed up and living in florida going through transition. You know like it's just totally different and other places where there is like one doktor. I could see one therapist I could see dealing with gender, and so I called endocrinologist I was dealing with this is in june at the tonia, and there like the soon as you can. His august, so it was just like terrible healthcare. I was in a bad situation and had to it and was really must stop you know, and it all kind of like was a perfect storm like a tree fell through the roof. My studio too and destroyed it by baseball. quit my drummer had already quit like. I was just a quick various reasons I mean, like really the drama in the vase pair totally separate things drummers just kind of a jerk, The base fair was a dear friend time for him to move on unrelated to that you know it like that subject. Then going through a lot of stuff, even relations, to my acts of that's. Obviously, what it seems like then, is like you refer to the fact of, like oh your chances. Is it related to that? Why, like certain things fell apart.
Sometimes I wonder about that, but at the same time like it did set off a chain of, like bunch of changes are now going to take place within your life? You know, and a lot of that is just the way it in life and all reason equating starts yeah. It is but and I don't mind taking like I don't mind accepting All the blame for anything I just would hate to ever put blame or put any kind of guilt on someone else, our if you're, if you didn't know the asher lena like they are reacting to eggs like I can't say that about anyone and I ended and if they do feel that way than that's fine and fair and that's totally cool, but I would for them to ever feel guilt for, revealing anything like that right, right, right, you just so your empathetic to their struggle that they may have within themselves totally everyone processes, like you, know the news of someone coming out in that way in a different way. I think we can create spiky. You know coming out in this way, you know is it is. It is a relatively new wish thing,
I cause I, like you said I mean I don't know that yet everywhere you can just make this decision and enacted in enacted. I mean coming out as a as a as a gay person. I mean that's sort of been around awhile rack, but you know something sort of like it's because there's more to understand, I would think for some people like wait. So your. How far is this going to go when you know what what is it? How are you oriented like there's other questions? If someone says I'm gay, though I thought, okay, this It's what you are that, but this is no more complicated in a way? I think it away, though, that also those questions which are really heavily placed on you when you first come out. Leah can often like create this pressure on a trans person person. That's on realistic because you're asking someone who's trans to explain something you, don't understand totally they're, just taking a step and they're saying I agenda in a way that different than you probably identify.
We're gonna call that trans ok. Now I'm taking this step to figuring out what that means and figuring out what I wanna do. Maybe that means were hormone replacement therapy. Maybe that means of we'll surgeries here, but it doesn't always have to write you sure so placing this pressure to, like you, have to give an answer now: you're going to get surgery you're going on hormones. What are you going to do? You know like a creates, is like mind, fuck of a pressured like cooking we decided- I don't know- I don't know, and especially when you do a publicly in your like doing interviews, india and people wanted of. You have to have like this for that kind of answer, so that happened. That was I assure you that contributed to the breakdown. I thinks like you like of what should I know the answers. I still joy joy needed to appease them, yet only I think it's in your head where you're like well, I don't know, but I dont. What am I doing as that's reactionary, or what am I doing, because I need to fit into someone else's understanding of an interpreter of gender or what
doing because it actually makes me feel more right in my body right, that's hard to do in the public eye, that's hard to do out of the public. I that's hard to do. Injun sure she's, it's it's interesting to me, because you know I I I I have my own- I dont know how to talk about it. I imagine that most we'll talk about it, so I this is the best way to talk about it. Now. I think you know no absolutely by like I'd. Imagine the the reactionary kind of like sensationalism thing in Iraq, the station publicly about this in a press situation. They may not try tribute I to be sensationalistic they're, just sort of like what what what's happening. What are you going to do now? Do you have a vagina when does that happen? That way, here it is in progress if there's a there's, a fascination that may or may not come from the right place, but it's still there right and I never guess need the empathy necessary for four for the culture
sort of understand that you don't have those answers is a new thing totally at any unites it's it's interesting. Issues like this is new new shit, so brave new world. It is like I go up like I'd. I'd made bad jokes before in my life Sometimes I think that, in order for culture to transition with you, you know ye because people just laughing cause they're uncomfortable sir, that's a legitimate, like response that happen piano and write a much better one than violence. Rhino organ like you or immediate boxing of the person who I mean, is a sign of internalized transphobia that you you ve, been ingrained with by growing up society that is transfer back. You know that's talk to you later taught to me. That's why? instilled that's how I knew without they wasn't like my parents sammy down one day, and they were like, don't be transsexual
here there was leaning on the many right right. So you learn about it because you see like oh sensationalize like headlines in like supermarket, stands o silence at the lambs. Oh, like ace, ventura, oh like in all these the thrown at you where it's usually the butt of the joke. It's scary thing, It's obviously an unacceptable thing: it's a laughable thing most of the time, but that's just instilled in you to get by, but also the thing that cuts through. All that I mean I think more than eating whatever values someone might have, or whatever ideas expectations it they might have its it confronts sexuality. I would that's that like part of it, why you know it's a conversation I have had with a friend of mine, specifically in regards to transgender women and the levels of violence that that you know like their subject too often unlike. Why is it a violent reaction and it the dubious
you know whether or not it challenges your sexuality of like. So you look at a woman right and you check her out, and then you realize maybe oh shit, that woman has a dick right in that challenges your sexuality. Why right? But So, like your looking woman, because it's a sexist patriarchal societies and that's most man's immediate, I doing when they look at a woman, but I'm like a shocking her out and then they realized like. Oh this, this person doesn't fit what I thought they feel and now this somehow is an affront to my sexuality, but he does sorted provoke something where it sort of gets initially confusing and feelings happen within somebody you how they're gonna interpret them like there. There is its in its new experience, that is sexual sure. Yeah. I mean in that context as the sexual experience yeah, but I'm saying that the root of that has to do with more of like that. It's a excess society here and that that's the way it works, but I also say to back that of tobacco for a second or on a related note or whatever to. If you lie,
the number of people looking at transsexual porn on the internet. It sigh assessment. You know, like those people who are looking at transsexual course, R, R, straight manchurian alike? So what does that say than two years? k to do it in the closet. But if you're caught doing it in real life than you like its eyes. I assume that there are closeted cause they're watching that porn. There might not be so now, I'm just saying they don't know how to interpret what their feeling you know. They don't realize that that their attracted that person, because they're a woman despite the fact that their genitals my right a little different than another woman's, but in my spain and lively all the women that I've subduing. They all have pretty and pussies are fucking whatever your ally. I do yeah same with the same with Cox. What was the point of getting a little? I don't remember. Let us read my thoughts, but so where our yet, with the whole thing,
the whole thing I don't know nothin living right now, I don't know I'm just living. You know anybody on a good place, but in the treatment and the like, how does it mean the word you ever laugh at me went through yet that nervous breakdown, neuron medicine and hand hormones in estrogen that we're not balanced properly is at something. as you transition that you? U win yourself off after you had a level within our well. Can you taking these pills, I mean it's will depend when you go to but like so there was the level I was getting of health care in florida. When I moved to chicago chicago's informed consent where you can go into a doctor say this is what I'm doing and you get access to hormones got much better healthcare and in chicago, and then I've been on injectable since I've lived in Chicago and that's something you have to just keep doing yeah once a week he gives chefs. Overshot as an end in your euro. Your levelled off with the with the process. Now you don't let alone you're good, I mean I've again. Am I feel way more comfortable about myself, I'm happy, I'm sure I do
is really hard to transition. When you talk like a traveling ike, it's hard for me to get refilled superscription, you know like hunt from munich appointments to go through things like electrolysis. You know, I don't know like all this stuff is stuff. I think about constantly it's not like. All of a sudden I was like and on you know like nobody's like you doing me, but if you feel like Do you like you now that you're into a like what has been two years? Two thousand twelve came so three years. Is it but since you have your actively been doing the therapies to transitions been three years yet now you feeling like? I guess my question is around: you know what you are freaking out about before. In terms of the questions you know, I like now that you ve We have started this thing. Are you I'm not okay or do you? Are you looking to do more like that. I have a much better understanding of what I need, and what makes me feel right than I did three years ago, certainly more than I did. Ten years ago, twenty years ago, right, but I feel
like that in another three years, another four years, another five years. I leave and have an even better understanding of who I am and what I need haha. I don't think that that's something that you can ever fully feel like, complete with or anything really at least for me, ok yeah, I guess so I mean, but that sort of right to me like it's it's, it's sort of like like withdraw Is there something I dagger or or that feeling of not being in other other ways? You know like that it is or something Are you doing anything else around the psychology of of dysphoria that isn't transition. Related did you ever address other issues to your comfort mentally or I'm trying to you know like. I am an existentialist you know, and like, I oftentimes, feel locked in thinking about things and thinking about the bigger picture of things and what certain things mean and
you know, I don't know how to reconcile with my life beyond where my toward its end here end and that that's, like I liver, really weird, like I know like well what, if you were to quiet down, I mean what do you like like see like as I'm a guy, I'm a recovery guy, so I young, I haven't done shit in like fifteen sixteen years. You know that that was my problem, but Do I feel hole in complete all the time? I feel better about myself. I feel comfortable in my skin, but there are still some making a what does it all mean? What's the fucking point yeah so that has gone away now. I very much still have that We had some there. I don't want to go away away her. I know I think that with elsie sure it is the other, you should have some piece of mine yeah, I mean it, trip you know like, and I can imagine dominica. Yet, but I can imagine that, like it took me like you know years like I don't think I arrived in my body until my five or six years ago, just me and when I started to get successful. If you like
I worked very hard and all my life to do something. I was a self esteem problem. Sure you know Annie They just sort of happened organically, but I felt it happen. So I imagine on on some level that either of you taking this, you have this making this transition has given you some of that I mean your. Your self esteem must be better and you're confront other set one hundred percent. My problems now, I guess, are more just like normal forms of like going through another divorce. He met me. I got to deal with the fact that, like I work and travel- and I have a kid and how do I balance like travelling life with having a kid in being able to be a part of my kids life? I am not necessarily getting along with the mother. You know, like those urges like the realities of life, that everyone has now. Those are my more problems to what other people s problems are I haven't really good and that I enjoy what I do. I really love playing music. I really loved how's? The community responded all this. You mean the community as online music community ranks the
have been really supportive and really cool the a hundred percent, no dicks there subjects. I mean there's always a couple dixon neighbour, like right. People in all read the comments, but you know what I mean when william bigger by mean bigger dicks. I mean like, are there any is have you had any experience with people that you respected or other musicians that have have me reacted poorly now, that's good now and that some yeah it's it's been really surprising, yeah in a grey area and the ban mates, bandmates totally cool yeah yeah. It's really not be that big of a deal, I think, is what most people like get after a second they're. Just like oh, ok, you just psych would prefer me to use famine. Pronouns with you and then we're going to practice. at the same time and we're gonna go on and will hang out and have a fun fun time and you'll will have the same sense of humor. I the the same thing just look, ladylike lady, like tat and cool. Let's overdoing know like great easy
Do you get attention from men? What do you mean sexual attention- as since you like the transition this much- I guess and come on. If you want to look sexy, don't you sometimes you all look pretty down here, sir yeah I mean like I liked. You know, I'm the singer in a band, I'm a little bit like arrogant and vain to write like everyone, maybe has a thing to a certain extent. So that's the way I carry myself through the world right. No, that's good! That's! I think. That's a good rock and roll position to have right. Alright, so The new records down your touring on this record, your big, like I didn't like you know, I feel bad, because I'm I'm so out of the loop, but I mean you have a big following we'll have popular ban may have a modest following that.
very happy with- and I really like believe me- I understand I have a modest following as well. Wasn't that modestly it was pretty good. But what would you what? How? How is your ego? Do you want more? Do you always want more? Do you want to be big? You want a stadium rock, I mean everyone does and especially like you. I don't it makes me paralyzed with fear to related to try it at Walmart stand up, though, and it's very personal in a way that you know that just me up there. So the idea of me performing for ten thousand people sort of white what they want from me, honest, like. I am happy that anyone wants the scene. I mean that I genuinely, of course, like you, want to feel like you're progressing. And doing new things, and I dont want to feel like I'm just playing the same club over and over and over again. You know that it's never changing, so you do want to feel like growth. That's like natural, I feel like an ahead We thank her and ambition is a good thing, sir, and wanting to feel like you're reaching more people, especially
so hard in the music industry these days, where things are so skewed, where it's like you know, like record. We ve sold each record, we put out last three records has charted higher but like, ultimately, Thus, you know me like it's less pressure If position is higher, so like you, you know you. you want some sign that Europe still relevant in the music industry was sometimes it just about the people who come your sales. Are tricky outta. My way really talk to talk, some yo big old deeds. India musician eyes and a few young deeds, the only other real like honest punk, that I talked to with no patrick staples from Titus Andronicus, ok, yeah he's he's a piece of work like it seems like you guys. I mean a good way and he's he's he's yeah he's something but like it seems like he. You know.
when you're at the level europe is just about touring constantly yet totally and but that's what we ve always been You know we have always been a ban that was about now got original guys we're! U still my best friend james, were met on the first day of high school. Is my guitar player still to this day, so yeah that's we need get along and fat my place on the record. He played up on a couple songs on that record on trade centres, for evolution, good record. Thank you what about like? How's your my hand on all this, my mom's great she's been really supportive and from the gecko yeah. She experience concern initially yeah for sure, you know I mean like she had, I mean she's a mom and she worries she's. Apparently you know like I think she was just wants me to be happy or yateley that yeah. That is what they want. He think I think so. I think I yeah. I would hope that and your brother, my brother's totally cool yeah, just the daddies he's not
camera. I hope- maybe I don't know you know- I don't know how to do that. That's a cut that was complicated regardless of agendas for you do what do you? have de visualize anything damning d c d want something. What do you want? I feel like that either no I'm thirty, four years old, that I'm still allowed to be the kid and then, if there, the parent than you know, If you come to me, like okay, being my parent you're going to hold out, I am yeah. Alright. Well, we'll see what happens. mr nice, talking to you too, that's it. That's the show. I loved it I love her, and I in I liked your music, I hope have enjoyed that conversation. The talk phobia Doug talk. Go to deputy of pod that compromise devotee of parties check the calendar. Bolder dates are coming up fast and debt.
her dates are coming up. That's that's a bolder july, twenty fourth, poverty in the colorado in Denver july, twenty fifth, the paramount in denver, colorado portland weak and sold out. Thank you panthers. I'll, be talking to ed. Asner I also have a widower shorty without an goldberg which was fun so look forward to that,
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Transcript generated on 2022-09-13.