« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 674 - Cintra Wilson / Zach Galifianakis

2016-01-21 | 🔗
Cultural critic and writer Cintra Wilson has always made Marc’s head spin. She takes him back to her wild and woolly days in San Francisco and gets him up to speed on her most recent project, a cross-country exploration of American fashion. Plus, Zach Galifianakis stops by to talk about his new series Baskets, which he co-created with Louis CK. Zach and Marc also compare notes on their respective interviews with President Obama.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fine words do this: how are you what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies, what the fuck's there is, what the fuck dialects how's. It going This is mark mare, and this is wtf. My podcast thank you for listening. Welcome to the show be new to the show glad to have ya what's happening, I know where you listening, but our bearings going. Ok right, we ve got a pretty a pretty amazing show. Today censure wilson, the easing brilliant cultural credit, and writer has said it's written a new bug. What's out, it's been out a little bit, it's called fear and clothing unbundling american style to available anywhere you get books, that's happening, she's going to be here. I love her I talked to in a long time wasting my time. I was in new york is always an amazing conversation very funny, very smart, exciting
it was exciting. Also what else is going out with me talking about reading? If you never read my book, attempting normal there's a special right now for the next two weeks, it's on sale. dollar. Ninety, nine, everywhere iii books are sold ninety nine. That's a real go boost everywhere. He books are solved, so go. Do that get attempting normal right now, there's this so for the next couple weeks. If you have read that right in the end, also also what else zack bout, Zack valentine, zack valid for gas, zack val, F gases drop I the garage other day, always nice to see Zach. I have not seen him since I too am I maybe I ran into a couple times, but he was. very early, w e f and he's gotta show a new show produced by louis e k. We also got to spend some time with not here on the mike's.
Do we want our net? A nice meal mean the louis but the show that they created a it's called baskets. Premiers tonight annette with the air with new episodes the every thursday So that was that we want to talk to sack. So it's a brief pack show I'm kind of tired. We have begun. Production of marin season. For to tell you man, the first few days, one great on this block. Gotta watch this and crew back there. For all of the writer guys are there job categories on the camera. Lynn, Shelton, the amazing when Sheldon is directing the first two episodes. I've never work with her as a director. It's been phenomenal and it's a I gotta admit it's a pretty funny. it might be. It might be the funniest season. It's it's! It's a bit dark it's going to be a showed not like the show saw before in a way it completely new show, saying
for those of you who who have kept up, with the marin and you can see it on netflix now, the all of them. I think you can see all three seasons, the end to season three. I was not. The things were not great for character of marin. So we are there. We start a year. Here I hears here's. What Give you we start a year after that last episode of marin on sea, three sorts a year later, from whatever might have happened, starting day after that finale aright. That's that's! What I'll tell you That could go either way, but I think it through make your assumptions all this so a real good. We got em all done before I started shooting cause, it was empty to do that, because I don't really have time to be re writing on set and an eye, and I
require less grooming this year that that's another hint, I'm gonna. To give you that's all that's all you say I don't want to see any more other. Then I'm have employed right now and of course we do the podcast throughout the shoe. Say I squeeze it in garrison. relations with some people get on the mike here but I'm a little exhausted out I'll tell you exhausted I am last I I was just. I got back from the shoot sidney, having a bowl of cereal. and and my two cats man, bond over on the couch- and I said dear, I said: hey you two fuckers and they looked up at me at the same time, and I laughed for a little while tired punchy, that's where I'm at that got me going. That was all it took ya all gwen fry died, and he was in the eagles and I a lot of people that kind of
mad eagles they go to the reasons. Some of us think that is because we ve, heard the eagles a lot, but I gotta be. With you, some of those songs like the song, Take it all limits, so in their like may be with them stairway to Heaven and couple others, I think I was one of my first slow dances and, as pro impact there. You always heard the eagles all through your life, and this guy was great songwriter good singer, and great guitar player. I mean we just it to the point where I don't even really know how classic rock stations are going to do a tribute to the eagles, because every her song is generally needle song. That's how many hits they had, but it's a sad thing in and I do want to They give him in them their props, because a couple of those songs were pretty power,
for in the mind of a junior high kid back in the seventies and enact so I p glenn fry anyways, Zack, alpha noodles Zack, alpha nappy, Zack, Alfin as co created. The show baskets would louis seek any drop by weak. talk about a lot of stuff, so this means that govern axis. No, no comments have a need to europe. I had to do something I do you know what that is. You seem to have managed to I'm good, I'm with you, I'm like there. I don't like to do. I, like my life better than my profession, right yeah, I mean I think I need to get there. I don't often quite there, because I don't know what my life looks like coming one. I think people come to this town. India get hijacked jack, but by this way yours the live, your entertainment life, the eyes not attractive to me whatsoever as it ever.
No going to an end. die bar and whatever people do. We get to see you, I feel, like I'm immediately felt saw each other front door after you kicked opened the acute over the cap. All that How do you put your capital right now? It's I wildcat. It's like it's, not really my cat own, fair, also feral, that unites feed out there but I know it's a problem, and I apologise for that, but I felt right away that we're getting long better out- will you always see you always have this thing with people? I think more notice. What use are with Me- only known automatic. We get along. No, no, we get along with sometimes like, like sometimes I in the end, maybe it's true in the past there maybe this happened? If you knew you were going to do this, maybe in the past we gotta, ok, go go talk to mark up
on own insecurities right yeah? I feel like that for people to feel like oh shoot, someone has to come talk to me, ethical, bad, for them no, no way did sometimes I've been a necessarily bitchy, but I feel better now just tell me that at the outset, well, I always light, and I think your if you want to call it whatever anger was always so funny yeah and right you're, the one that makes me that makes me want to do it with you will anger makes me laugh like I don't it just It always has a twilight it, but you I owe you and I have no nine. I look at you I love to you too. I like it, took me a while. It took think you're funny it takes a while. I don't think there's a wilder too like. Maybe there was this one time. Maybe I should say it because I wonder if I what you're talking about I wonder if I, if I might have covered it like two years ago, when we did, you actually were one of the first that yeah I gotta. Thank you. I mean your podcast with that we did in albuquerque was
one of the essential ones towards building an audience. So I appreciate the well. You know I love to build podcast. He d have finally around our marcel marceau podcast at a you know. People are getting that now, it's a big It's weird just one person, it's just me going. Are you what your skateboarding now wait I didn't say anything you're in a year. boss. I know you're pulling something. What is it No. But there is one time that I always feel bad about what was not even about bad. It was like it is at the old margo and I guiding live here and I was bitchy in you. I was here as going go. Do this damn sedative down club where ones doing these coup? thing and it was in that right by the door like before you go and stayed right you were wearing like a george washington outfit. I go about it up. Was it get, but it was a full gotta, be you'd gone to its you'd outfitted yourself, you're, a founding father. There were something I was a stand up comic from seventeen hundred, though alright
it. Never justices be or I walk in. You look at me you're about to go onstage and I just sort of like really it takes that much you can. You know, look high, I'm not above doing prop humor. I don't I don't hurt at all, but I felt that about that, because it was funny- and I could not see the funny at the time, but you know you're first stand by ever met in a laundromat and a laundromat north carolina, yeah yeah. It was a weird thing I don't even know like in retrospect. I'm not sure why I was there. I would have in a way that long to our need to wash close me, I didn't pact not thoroughly north carolina. I know you were doing charlie good. Yes, I know, and it was walking distance from where are you must have been staying right and you walked in, and I live near the laundromat array and the laundromat- and I saw you and I was like I've- seen him on television, and I just asked you about yeah stand up here Remember that I remember I was living in new york and I was contemplating trying to figure out. If I could do stand up,
and I remember I was I- was a nanny in new york and Al Franken'S- kid was it you're a nanny as a nanny in new york, and I did. I know that I batty don't you need a licence for that or something no, How do you what how well the family wanted a mailman, because it she had two boys nea and they were older. He had a ram bunches, I think like in their teens. No, they won't seven and I can't remember data how they find you I put up added and why you and why you letting go, they are right and they called me right of wonderful nice family a bit, but I remembered the school, in which I would pick the kid up, I'll franklin would pick him his son up. There are to carry out an up, and I walked up to him and asked for his advice, and he said well to be honest with you, you're, probably not funny to be honest with well, he was already built. It is at a time I was, but did that mean, but he would say: look a lot of
you think they're funny right and they're not yeah. You should know that and it turns out, he was right He made a great live another matter right. You made a great career out of it, but that thing about like. I always appreciate the fact that you don't seem to like we're talking up at the beginning. You don't feel compassion do stand up right now. No, I do feel compelled to do stand and fight it Are you a Y know? I will soon to. I just did it two nights ago, but me I do. It is much better to me. If you don't do it, often hear your rhythm is off our young man and I have it. I haven't done it often enough of late to get my rhythm back. So it's it's! It's just one of those things that you have practice. I feel like a constant right inward. You do it at largo here with us when shall braided eyes at it with that? Regina spectre, John maloney and judd, would you thresher the capital of four in Regina Spektor, the singer singer
I was always wanted appetizers things here and then, where there was a You and may. After with me and judge at for miasm, and so there was a few questions and the last question this woman raised, razors their hands. Yes, yes, can Regina spectre commencing another song. I pity letter. I guess Leave it at three did not exactly. I think that when we are talking whose so offended I was so happy, she asked that, but it's like announcing one she saying one year. I think it. Oh, you are, working in the same building. Have you been in this new show? What is it baskets? Yes called baskets, and we heard at the beginning when we were putting the writers' room together. Ikea baskets is yours, access and data Anthony writes on your show. He does and he performs on it, he's taking it over like a cancer, though it like get cancer yeah. We have a good camera, it together. Yeah I like to have a lot yeah. He he always speaks highly of you. He does yeah huh yeah you he he mentioned to me that you are some weight. You are good, he mentioned it to you.
What is your assessment of it? Or are you just saying? Oh no, you look good. He like he. He said like, and it makes me uncomfortable, but I am you know, I'm not throwing him under the bus, but he's he's having a hard time adjusting you looking healthy, apparently it makes them feel better it. The reason I'm finished, because I'm dying, oh well, that I'll tell him that ok, do you want to go into that at all? You know it's not that important. What did you do would you stop doing on? Do you know I? I may ass up drinking that helps. You did oh yeah. I don't drink at all. Why? When did this happen? ugh. Well, I had one of those nights there have been looking for for a while, and I woke up and say: ok that that should be probably the end drinking life. How congo is that? four years ago in march or through it's hard for me to
and then I drink at my wedding and a drink at one other wedding, Bobby tis del here, and that was in a great mass of those breaks, and I just I just you know it's hard to. I was a good drinker, but when you get older it's. Your focus goes exhaustion it's too much in its its and also thank god. I mean, as I hate the I think, were kind of trained, oop, madison avenue, that's the way to be a mayor in all that horseshoe madison avenue. Well, the winter time travel. I mean you know that I like it, advertisers there. No! No! I! I think that there was something put in place like if you watch mad men, it's all about that. That guys were drinking all the time it was set in motion. Then yup, that's right! Well, you know madman cetera. It's does not a document This document documentary called my watching wrong.
it's a nice looking documentary it is, and I was surprised how much access they had yeah. I know how to get all that access. How did they do that? fascinated him. They were color cameras back that it was amazing. Here is amazing and real dedication, the director and curious they would take very few people. A people come here to ask you about the present at the: u bored with people asking how that now there's this cup people like the cup the cup under glass, you got it you, this weird machine noise Oh that's my car. I left at all because my son's incited why some people it's like when you stop talking about that. Never president came to my house, so there's no reason to lie down. What's going to say going to space the secret service community, as all did all that and did they come with an art like a big motorcade wow? That was that We travel technologies. Gonna know how really norman rainbows by powerful. Did you was there anything afterwards where you wish, you would ask them?
one one? Quite what was it like movie from like a senator to that I wish I knew are making decisions most unilaterally that are both. Options are going and in in human, the loss of human life. What was first one of those and and yet how do you process that? Can you answer that question? Human answer. Did you get the idea? heard the interview yet, but did you get a chance to ask me the wall street? No, not specifically wire yeah we're lawyer and I did a between two ferns thing with me and that when we were dying I was like I wish with So we think, as he was, that was for the healthcare point out equally healthcare thing. I was yet I point pro quo that you had to do either with that. That's exactly right, aggregated use, latin terms, but yeah that that's yet the mean he had a thing, but I believed in it
I believe in a thing so that by not- and I like him- and I think that what there is in this always gonna be in there wasn't much from from more so me, because I did have some experience doing politics that there- might have been an expectation disorder. We have put his to grow a little bit, but the thing but don't realize about politicians as you can some whatever you you want emanating give us a list of questions or vat said at all, because you know why cause I can handle himself right, that's right, so you can ask him. Why has failed to kill, kill other seville? and I'll be like well, you know, is this? A tough decision in these in another son you're into the same were night three, it's in your guy knows talk about. so I he's gonna hear he's gonna. Get where you get so I tried to just stay young, yet gap and in one pretty. What was your experience when I tell ya Will you and ah I may cause you? I owe you a character. I was nervous, I'm because
we did in the white house and he came to your house. I went to his job, but I was I was I mean I was nervous, but after the fact and after we did it in the video was released. He I get a phone call from him and were chatting and we chatted for a couple minutes and then the last thing he said was ok talk to you later brother and hung up, and I dont know what to do. I was by myself at you instructions I too, and I just stood up and took a picture of the chair. I was standing it as theirs. a cup as it does with the present picture of an old chair. Everyone is just a maze. What did you want to talk about? It? Was there they want to talk about some of my bits. No, he wanted to talk. He just wanted thing. It was nice. Thank you, but let me ask you this, though, when because I had the like. My struggle was to be myself like you, hold you know what
The tone of that show what I have to be rude beyond the present the president in the white house, but I mean I'm a respectful person, you know so, but there was a call, gin that I'm sure was not cause his speech. Writer, yeah for women, and I said to his speech writer cody, whose so very funny this guy here- and I pointed to a question I said- has the president seeing this question and it was what's it like to be the last, but president, Ankara goes now think so, like were absolutely, he did not see it right. So when I knew I had to ask that question, it was there was a big hero lump at in my heart, but he he's a funny he has a good sense of humor present O'Brien yeah and that's rare in that town. Like Washington, d c is not a funny town to me is that iggy pop year, using her oddball
If what you mean you know, I didn't I mean I don't know he was, do you isn't anything pop? I'm not asking you to, as my party has been doing. Well, you don't mind I gotta tell ya I've been on. If you remember this, but years ago I told you should be on sixty minutes as the Andy rooney at the right, the cranky guy. You should mean that's where you're at you this. that. You really think I'm areas what they annoy me. I don't need sixty minutes anymore, radio. I don't need any. You don't need the man anymore. No, I don't need demand, it's a very weird feeling. No one does. If you plan it right, there are still some people that are sorta like nah, I kind of liked the man Yeah muslim avenues. You need the monterrey right now, the man, So do I can you It's literally a of the the reason why some people need a man is the same as a parental thing. It's like! Well, you know you eat gummy this chair yeah, that's true, yeah, yeah yeah. I think he made me this nice room and I can sit near so alright. So let's talk about, before we talk about baskets and which
episodes that? Did you? Do ten? Really do you? I come yeah yeah, I'm either very specific I'd show yeah with canada. We are dramatic undertones, but very humor here and the tone of that is kind of new, and I hope audiences find it ok. Now you now lui produced it yet. We got Louie Louis called me in athens. Lucy K, call me and asked me if I would interest in triumph. right, a tv show because he had the deal at fox s yacht so they're like makes him shows, I guess How do I get yeah and I you know, my confidence level has never really been strong and for anything, about it and he and I started chatting and- and he made it really easy and gave me a lot of room in freedom and and- and you know we came up with this- this should show about a bitter rodeo clown.
Did you know. That was something that you you. Both he sat there would lui or on the phone and new iq other you're gonna. Is that allowing well first it was gonna, be behind the scenes of between two ferns. That was my ideas and then can I make it that right and I couldn't make sense of that. my head and then, Louise I saw chatting- and I remember sitting around to sit and act. Like I'm thinking right and up who clamp adopted my head and something about him being trained in paris. Made leeuwen. I laughed like like a like, ignoring client arena genome, we our artistic and he ended up their somehow so he goes there in it to the sis. Study, clam theory and eat is terrible, drops out and goes it moves backers hometown bakersfield in all ability working get is a rodeo. Chip on his shoulder. So so that's that's the that's. The basic sir takes place in bakersfield yeah, bigger, skilled in paris.
the pairs paris yeah. Did you shoot barrier really does therefore baxter desert flashbacks, yes, yeah yeah, it's that was so funding, but apparently I mean I've, never really been behind the scenes of a tv show. Well, no, I had a talk at a talk show three years ago, but I was paying attention v h, one b, one with the hat yes mark with the tat. I was with no I'm, not I'm not. I don't. I always together that the game show on the flip side of you, fuckin, hatch, oh yeah, and we both tank together I don't know, he's right cat, I'm not taking the upper hand here. It's yes went down together with with what's his name Levine one day heaviest, not the greatest place to do the weird thing was, though, is why they, you know in terms of changing the town. They were just like about a decade too soon, that you know what they saw you or the idea of was right to make it more specific to what they pictured
primarily I think white youth as being at that time, but then they came to me and told me: people could not make fun of right artist of theirs that it could make fun upright well, I think there was. They were trying to reach out to a segment of of of audience. It in quite exist, yet what the share fans will they be there. I had to do tat. You did tony braxton vans just remember like there is arbour moment in show business where I think we're both their data am I'm wrong where they doing this sort of the big kind of like launch thing in house wants ling. and they wanted me to do like an episode of the buzz cox live with a couple of people. Out of you were there not, maybe but I just remember that what's his name, Fred, o graver, graver right when he- up there to address the eight point which were pretty entrenched in what One was, and he thought of
you too, where they had that you were wearing a bus, stops and everything. So we get. there were that dumb haggling in I just looked into a room full of people who had been doing it a certain way for over a deck Just like just like this. Now this is this fuckin roman, unlike this, is doomed yeah I couldn't have been happier that didn't work out for me. I had no idea what the game show was. I I hosted it for thirty nights. I have no idea. I remember when that shit would I that that show got canceled. For me, I just went right back to open mics yeah. I just write back to open. Mics are like ok to do over but then you ve got onto amazing successor now. Ok, baskets is excited, sounds good, I'm excited about it. Not then the billboards are hard to understand, but I well you ve, never liked my billboards, I haven't and you are alluding to with the hat think that dumb. But there was
that was like a fuckin that was right. Mortally marked ass in new york, I mean it was like fucking every working with this. This business is like everything has to be out of the gate. Big say just let people find a show. The way What I mean did the one thing you get with ethics do, and I am because you working with lui and what I get. What I see is tat YE. Do we have freedom to young there's, no end, there's not near there's. Nothing. Better than they are. would that even existed? I assumed it never existed, but when Louis told me hey, they won't bug you. He was completely up to his word. They they have been nothing but caught and the notes they have given me and I not to blow smoke up but have been really really agreed with all the notes, which is rare. Why think that that happened to me too, on on marin and it's like it's a gift. It's a great thing, and I think one of the reasons is because they they in some ways have you know less to lose it's a much more competitive market that there's no system in place anymore. They can't pretend to know the answers they just can't. So you know they
I sat in the creative and it is now that's what it enough. The smart way to be there, the business people where the matter jokester. When does it when's it Andy? No is we should write their day. Twenty first january, oh really- and I dont know what time it soon, the twenty first yeah I'll get Information on Louie anderson he's in it really yeah for a lot of them he's, I think, he's in all of them really plays my mom really mia know if I'm supposed to say that I can remember for now it's greatest secret or not. I wanted to cast Brenda Blethyn is at her name the english actress and I'm not sure, she's a she's one of my favorite actresses, but I never how to pronounce your name and ass. She was not in available and louie seek ay, and I were talking about it and I was
I don't know louis. I just there's a voice in my head and we looked at you know a lot of people actresses reels and you're sick there's a voice and what kind of voice and like kind of like Louie anderson's voice eddie goes. Should we call louis an hour yeah a minute later- louie Lui or talk in the phone- and I remember the conversation halo, its lowering our half, hey, I'm doing the show their galifron access. Aha hears it that we want you to be in it. Ok, here's the thing we want you to play as MA I'll do it exactly how it would do, and it has been a really really I mean he he's. He steals the show busy and I I like I, Wanna be the straight man in this area it. So he is ass, lowered on autonomy of mirth beer for ease very funny.
He has like a lot of siblings. He was telling me year and I mean like nine or ten and now I said Louis, where, where do you fall in line like we have a number celebrate siblings and he goes I'll most successful Well, he's a sweetheart you're, one of their great car, materially really great. But what about how? Many? how many more hangovers either we have can't we're contracted up to twelve so and I knew I feel, a real appetite out there or more people really want. Everyone always asked me when I told people talk and you might tell ass- can be when its common one, where do they go now those guys yeah? It's a look, I that was a that was a good chunk of my life that I do not regret at all, but a good time. It was a wish. We had just done. One really, I think, leave well enough alone. Sometimes you know how many
do three three area will now have to do. No more, are you doing any well known now I mean in ten years when This all dries up, reassure the I'll, be knocking on people's towards good. To say: do you can still weird? And now you see, I think, one, the reasons you seem better outside of perhaps not drink and growing up the avenue child. Yes, how as a child, I don't know he's some. No he's too he's a he it's a he hear. Yeah, I think a meda. pretty sure yeah. He had these days. You might check in occasionally that must be great for you good father, I gotta tell ya going back what we are talking about. Madison avenue in all the earlier commercial fatherhood is it's fantastic here I mean I just I know I have no complaints, oh yeah, it's change the chemistry in my body worthy
A morning personnel? I go out, walk and say good morning to morning people that nice people, if you meat nice people unless it is go out at six. warning but yeah I I can't I I just. I don't want to bore your audience, but I just I just being a dad has been, has been the highlight of my life and you have an exit strategy. What for I live like? Are you going to like it? Some point go. I am taken the family and mothers. there's a drop out scenario that stuff we gonna happen where you just What you can do that, if you want Ethically I get up here- and I am saying this because I think about this- see here, are two different pay great the me, but but There is almost no, you got my text. There is three of them just remember, right, who's in charge. but I mean you, kids like this- is like I'm just fighting with this myself. It's like white, people go. I am done. Take my kid. In my wife,
and go over a deep quality life away from this year, but I think that I love you and I have a selfish pool t to be to be here to entertain people. We need there's that I get needs. I don't think I can ever stop doing. I don't want to stop to stand up and prior right, because I feel it that's the one thing I would really miss all the other stuff meet. Look as we say in early. Does your life and your work life like everyone, your life is more important right. Dvd saw the farm ice. On that, but we moved our farm to another farm to yes, so we we moved out of north carolina dear me- don't tell me what you want, but you again their point yeah as it's a nice place it. Well, it's there's nothing. I mean it's, it's it's just a farm in the farming community really in an artist community is really the two things I love most. I like artists, alike, farmers, aha, and we found this place where it has both. Aha, it's just
magnificent and down. So you got some property an existing farming built one we bought we bottle a cabin from from a woman who, I think was a which our great, which gonna jump and is pre hippy dippy play. So it's? U ikea pisa. I, like I like no hippies. I just like freely around it. No, I like grounded earthy type parental, where I think the tree hookers in the end, and I mean the dope smoking hippy- that kind of irresponsible I mean the tree, others there always right me and they all I mean the tree hunters been warning about climate change. I remember as a kid the seventies I mean they only lay roll their eyes and just dismiss them right now, it's too late! Now, it's too late,
fuck yeah there's no. Turning back. It's always great to see you. If you were you what, let's, which clear list go to dinner and stuff you you and I went to dinner with. I owe girlfriend of yours in africa that eta pinto exact fuck is at noise, can you hear it so it might be my pacemaker our year. Oh no, are you do here that noise? What is that and let's go find out the was very nice to talk to Zach. That was the best we ever got along and we always kind of get along. But for some reason I you know I I used to just kind of bust his balls a little bit and mild. We bully him, but it was not there this time and he looks great lost some weight. So folks, I dunno, if you know central wilson, she's written, what a great stuff and she's an incredible wit and that quite a brilliant person. I was a very excited to talk to her
I said before you get a new book, fearing clothing, unbuckling american style now, and you can send me talk to the brilliant central wilson right now, and Last time I saw you was probably two thousand and seven in your like you had an energy was very specific. It felt like you are on the run. Nigeria's clandestine forces. steering, d c, two on you. I got you, sir. I'm just not like socially anxious in ways will tell me I mean what I got time are you are you are entrenched in politics. I was yet that would doubt bomb anybody out for a long drive a euro. What are we like? I gotta be cool. You know I got there is part of the euro is like it. I like
we're supposed to talk about that yeah. I know too much. I I kind of yeah. I was being warned that I did at certain points really it'll. Make me sound crazy if I discuss it but yeah, I was like Let's discuss, I was a dating a senior pentagon official. I will at all my friend and I had been in the white house press currency. I knew my phone was too apt because they actually tell you we're going to tap your father. I for the rest of your life, and you can hear them clicking and clicking officer so I wasn't actually paranoid, but it could come off that way. You're gonna I was talking to me I'd think I was parent. and for someone who's on the outside. Of that I was like man you gotta get out. I felt like I was like a sort of pivotal part in a movie. That was the way he needed to do up a tom intervention, get you out of hiding under some sort of witness protection program or out of the country. I don't hang out there anymore, you you're out hey I'm out of amount of politics and d too. I really just
Oh, you learn the thing and you go and you take the blue pearl and you see the truth in its hateful and war of all. The truth is: what did you find? I found that, no matter what you do or how're above at all, critical. You may be you're gonna, be carrying water for somebody absolute in that and that you cannot talk about politics in a way that will actually engage people that you wish would be engaged like, like I tried to make really obscure, formation palatable and funny happened. Basically, the only person who read caligula for president my last book was you. I basically voted for you or it doesn't exist vague. do it that it has a lot of work on your part. Is yours wasn't like we were talking, but you knew some If I had to get it to marin. Yes, it is actually dedicated to batman because the senior pentagon official I was dating, didn't want me to dedicate it to that important really. yeah I was in a bad place. I've always wondered that was my.
Killing you. Why? Why would I didn't think I was? I was really an you know, I'm very, very insatiably curious but like what? What did you? What what was it that major sort? The war with that because like when, I did political talk when I did the radio stuff neil from here, we were fielding stuff from the left from the far left you know, and from trying to get the facts as well- and he also being abreast of whatever the right was dishing out, but like it really gets to appoint where you realize that tom, it's it's, it's not a game. It's a business, and and that there is no real representation that did. The idea of democracy is kind of like it just placating people who are ok, an end and completely brainwashing people who were angry. The brainwashing part is the part that really
Meow yeah I mean, and also when you realise that these organisms are trust, so it makes a mean a place like the department of defense, there's euro four million employees with security clearance right country I mean there's no way to keep track of any of that, like a defence industry, doesn't have any idea how much the defence industry is spending right. I mean this united. They just watch the wheel spin at a certain point. No money go by nobody, there's no checks who tangled insists on anything any more. I the dragon has no head is right. Mind was fond of saying wow yeah If it is so in, and did you eventually get disillusioned and fall into a deep darkness? Yes, oh yeah! No! You have to, I think, but I feel like you have to do your time with it as it wasn't a kafka who said you, love you're, an artist you have to. You have a certain moral obligation to talk about these horrible political things that nobody wants to talk about it. I thought well yeah. I really do nobody love me for it. Nobody cared. Nobody read it. Cargo is doing and sort of your long in dense, metaphors like
How do I get killed, but right army should our approach it that way with the fear for your, like yeah next set yeah, I'm gonna start by talking about the deal d like an insect tie or something. So where do you live there? You were in DC your living in DC for a while, I was in and out of there I had a lot of friends there. My best friend from from childhood had a major. graham and the pentagon, which is their human terrain system- and I just I- was what my friend and colleague counter terrorism groupie was probably the worst kind of groupie. What is it a human terrain system? Please, it's no longer a part of what we do, but it was the reintroduction of anthropology into defense and because anthropology was just not something like when we first went into Iraq and afghanistan after nine eleven, we made a lot of really really stupid mistakes. As a couple just by not knowing but he's a culture of like the difference between sweden,
soon, the tribal area and not knowing anything about you know how to deal with the need to create some sort of programme to educate people. Out the people they were killing around a correct yes No, your enemy, I think was thoroughly now what they like to wear my team thereon in order not to their end. You know by offering them a handshake, followed what they think a shit or something. You know that I'm so. Should I not swear it's like it's so that all sat interesting, visible, a person you knew from child who went to his an anthropologist. I wish we had the same impoverished up bringing on the us leto houseboats. She's in this book. Yet she is she's at the beginning of the book or she is oh yeah, but I mean she's just been a major influence on my life because she's, absolutely brilliant, the most brilliant person I've ever known she went from you know by her own bootstraps, ended up getting a full ride to yale and then went to harvard and then went to DC, and you have a chip on your shoulder about ivy league people I used to I used to get pretty smart. I wrote this book and then I was like
fuck it. I have a phd, I'm giving it to myself. I don't care anymore about anybody's education. I can go toe to toe with most people about my chosen subjects, but we'll talk about that because I'm trying to think about the first time I saw it like when I fell in love with. You was probably when you're on the cover of mondo. I was so I know I know, but I dunno probably brought this up before what was it like? What was that time? So was it ninety one. Ninety two yeah, I was doing players is there I just come tat, is why bureau woke all sort of child genius play right like a cultural icon, a lot of bad play, a lot of nude photographs, yeah yeah. I think I met you once at a party your parents were sixties, lunatics right, totally, yeah, no they're beating eczema, mostly like be next week that generate educated. You know it's like they. They sort of look down on other hippies cause, they didn't do as many drugs, but my mother is still a jazz musician in San francisco, who calls herself the duchess, and
Well, my vip guide needed, like my father, taught art at one of the world's worst universities for thirty seven years oh state, where I was born, I was born in chico. California, really, I don't think I don't even know where chico state is ignored, Davis's, it's it's sort of yet she goes. I can middle of the Sacramento river valley, where all the orchards argument is the worst? Oh, it's it's grim It was actually and maintain eighty six of its in the book or, as it was voted on number one party campus right in america, because people are dying in the swimming pools go there too, drunk when there were to jog alone, like there is these people caught the beer pirates. I talk about it a little bit in the book, we're late. They take taken coors built buckle here with the key look. I met a branding iron out of it and they would like actually sear the core. Logo into the skin of past how'd, fresh written home, I said I had to cancel frontier weak
shouldn't around it? What do you take art history? Eyelids here is our full professor. He taught you know. Arts see grounds. I grew up. The liking educated open minded if spore torrent, of terminal degrees there very intelligent, crazy for how the fuck did they end up on a husband, sausalito. It was cheap. I mean they were trying to get me into a better schools. back in their like working ocean. This is nine thousand dollars and everybody stoned thirty. It was here, isn't it in community? I mean it was very radical and actually it was a community that was pretty much like we would. We will talk about. It is being off the grid now because they were openly flouting all of these laws and in sausalito behind it and they kept her looks like we're. Missy grew up. My friend there was actually just like about a quarter of a mile down the street. There were riots during our childhood because they were trying to do.
if her doc, which was you know all this crazy shit like you know, just like trailers sitting, I like orange pod too, and they like everybody's toilet, was basically just like a shelf that emptied out into the and you know that if this obsolete, I don't like that everybody is getting their power from the street light in the parking lot there were just run, a million extension cords like seventeen different in his eyes he was crazy, he's crazy time, but you How old are you under ten probably yeah very specific memories, I know, is very format. Those with those are weird memory that you have because it usually sort of like either terrifying or sexual. You like them, the memories a hit. You know it's especially in the seventies and especially in that area, in imagining it was
like when I would catch the school bus every day. There would be these women that we called the hitchhikers who would be standing right next to me like rabbit fur jackets, who had like me hitchhiking with their thumbs out and you could they they totally looked all little walk of. Shame clapped out at sea when a clock in the morning- and I like I'll, be there will be an all going to fourth group. As for the school bus, and if the hitchhikers weren't there and I was waiting for a bus like like coit drape, revenge would pull up and hawk and like wait for me to get and I'm like nah, I'm a giant I'll keep to hang in there was. There was famous children's authors who lived in the house, but then you knew like not to go near certain, well because they had, you know short eyes tendencies, but let me back then it was like you knew you know like people would warn you like you, don't you know
I go over to that guy's house boat, yeah. The house, but not gonna name names, but you know our neighbors yeah, just don't let your eleven year old girl near that guy, oh my god, but so what was your cause? You're? You know you're really sharp and you write for the new york times. They fired me, okay, yeah, but you know you sort of came about it and, like really creative, It was your own path, like you see, like lakers in the book and even just the part I read, which seems to be a pretty important part, because it really deals with your formative years of of what drove you to sort of assessing culture and being summoned by it and somewhat defining some of it on your own, like yours, I like the little part where you are. You were swimming cap too. Oh, I felt that that was one of my great fashion triumphs, all the time it was it made so much sense. It was so hilarious. What I witnessed was like. So where do we go? You go from fourth grade
and then what happens in san francisco? You move off the boat yeah moved about, and then I kind of just went into. I moved into the city very early when I was a teenager I have the honour of our guide. You got into the bucket taught you: where were you weren't a runaway, though you were just getting your parents? Will let you I was a runaway. I was a runaway, but I kept yeah, I mean they kept kind of making become back. I mean you're, a runaway britain that better car right away. I was a train you really. I was in juvenile hall and stuff. I was a problem: child how'd, you end up juvy. Oh all kinds of reasons: drugs drugs bet you mostly just like being completely rampant, yet uncontrollable, Well, that's what led to your genius, who is what they aimed at the time, as was just a bad job, but when you, we got into the the crystal meth period. That was I'm glad you read that part I was, I didn't, wanna have to bring it up myself, yeah. That was great part. I love the description of
of hobbes, impassioned choices and making your own. Now my god, you're gonna bring up the fish I jus, which will allow the He had live. Oh yeah, goldfish hearings, that is the lowest fashioned point of my- was out of it well as drug point to your right, absolutely absurd. Thirdly, the lowest. Now I were. I've never been that high. Ever since note was what we think about cause. I lived in san francisco only for like a couple years, but I never, I always felt off centre there. I could never figure out what was It always felt so ungrounded me like. I couldn't get unmoored yeah, I've gotta get a handle on it. You can get an acre anywhere. That's why you're setting sands well, I'm especially you were there, I mean when I like him and three I am does times I mean it's like this is when we were still describing the hate ashby areas where pino twenty euro, get a ba and then go to retire right to a life of broken motorcycles and black. The assurance of minutes I did it for awhile responded
If you were going to live forever and you've got really stupid tattoos and you know you can afford to live there. Kinda yeah, I mean you could afford to live in what was then a rotting old victorian and you could buy a lot of rotting old, victorian clothing to go with it and you know at the thrift store and it was fun but yeah but like even now. I know that is everything's changed our living on. I guess I was south Van ness in like twenty third, I lived there too. I lived there too. Really. I lived in the twenty third and south end as in several different apartments. I lived in twenty fourth and subpoenas twenty second and south and twenty third unsoftened twice, I think I knew I could describe some woman. There was a woman that I saw one morning when I woke up walking down the street. That is indelible in my memory, she was walking down the street wearing like it to two and combat boots. with a shaved ted, probably knew that girl don't sound. Like my friend lisa
There is no look. That was a look out, my friendly, so that probably was lisa virtual world. Yeah, but it was business like so many locals there. They are still around you go up there. The policy or out of the people that you grew up have us only goes. I lot of girls into twos and combat both to know you're not like. I wasn't a day. Look for a lot right now I was I couldn't stop. I was just like stopped in my tracks like what the fuck is happening in the world. It's amazing yeah. I felt partially responsible for her decline. I can. I can may be directly a tribute that fashion crime partially too, itself, where you guys are in some sort of fashioned battle. I introduced her to the wrong people yeah, dear friends, yeah yeah. I did something about that about san francisco and that weird feeling I think you described it really well, and I didn't know someone that history about why it became sort of the the gay capital and gave friendly port that it is.
I thought that was really fascinating. How come I never knew the way I looked at it, because it was just a hunch that I had that the local economy, because when I talk about in the book, how growing up in san francisco is very influenced by drag queens and speed freaks as we as they were fabulous fashion. Animal. and these were the people who taught me about glamour, style and personal style, and then I was thinking about that as an economy, because there is a huge gay economy and then I was like well. Why is there a huge gay economy in san francisco and then I looked it up and it's a and they there during the forties when they decided that homosexuals could not be in the army or navy. The out processed forty thousand service persons out into san francisco left him there and they are languishes nice, the already they stayed yeah there like great thanks. You know then cause I always because I always worth a try history, in my mind, without being very informed that it was always kind of a capital of weirdness in a mirror.
in sort of sheriff duality with the prospectors which you brought up and then I guess the the gay population, but how that led into you know the beats and the hippies in the how it all happened and why there it sort of, I can't quite define it. I dont know why there's different theories about that. I mean you know, the hippies areas that there was so much europe a way now you know like herb, being off of the mountain sides that everybody is like sort of high all the time and they just created this sort of euphoric sense of couldn't you who knows about tumbling down because of speed, really dead emmy. We thought we thought speed was a united back than now destroyed the love the teeth. So so word and upper. You, like you, grew up a little bit. You you didn't. in jail for long periods of time do not well I mean I wish I was
obtained owner. I went to jewelry and then I was in an institution or two were not for long mind. You know why, because I was crazy, I mean I was from this be brought more morph must just from the crazy. When I was a kid. They really didn't know that girls could be hyperactive and have adhd. As I was like the like this freak, show, emulate and understand what they are. Looking at, the right. I you know I was. I was no evil cells as pretty much so. He ended up in a couple of hospitals, yeah for short periods of time. When I was like a teenager yeah like and my parents sent me to poland, which was a really strange choice Why even wanted me to get shot? It was under martial law. When I really cannot fathom what the thinking process, what were they presented as well? They said that the euro there is this policy. I was living in my bedroom and he couldn't go back home because he had been running underground. Newspapers and you know the polish equivalent of the stasi was getting. You know
Put him away yet ever went back, so they sent me to live with his family yeah the exchange program which I do enjoy the riots of warsaw, how long were you there but another couple of months and then beko? It was here as well. They are giving a one way ticket. Listen, you know, there's a film schooling route. Why don't you in polish and go to this film school, and I was like what so they dispatched their parental duties. They're like we could. Probably I I I am just not we're gonna, I'm just gonna nod and you and I link at each other and I hope, tat anything they do to confirm or deny so they sent. You and you didn't go to film school you what you did you can travel in poland. I learned to learn what is lacking. The riddle of poland is a role pole and you know, like worms, was to go like knock on.
android vitals door and go hi. I'm an american drug addict! Oh so how did you come home and where were you must have been pretty? Was there any social excitement there I have a very nice time there. Actually I mean the the guy, the polish guy's sister and his family turned out to be a really lovely family, and there were really really nice to me and I had a very, very good time and travelled on a little boat around all the weirdest weirdest places in poland. Vegas nevada, mikel, liking jitsu. where you like, you know, park your little boat and then you like, walk to, whilst through cows, shit and some like sort of like easing little throbbing roto disco. That looks like errors made by like disco cave man. You know really amazing, it's always give reuse. I help you
actually really was. It was really good for me and a beer is only like eight percent alcohol. There are so you basically, you know you had a drink, your entire body weight and think it even remote buzz on so pray, pretty much impossible to get fucked up. and that was all that was available- was that that was it yeah until your parents did the best thing they could. I don't want to call this a good decision. I hate them too much for it, but it might have been productive still hate them. Do I still hate them? I hate is not that you know we're enlightened and we're in our forties. Now we don't say things like hey, I'm in my fifties and I had to have still processes shit. I have to process that shit all like every fucking day. Every time I think bought them and their self theirselves tenderness in their ridiculous self involvement, the meal generation sock as parents have you to say that we have had a likely they it's like. No one calls it what it is. It's fucking emotional neglect, you're just do your kids. Aren't your friends? Do you kids, and you can't just me
Actually I love this one's. I don't want to hang out with them anymore. I've had it with you yeah, but they did that all the time I mean it's like I'm half of the kids that I know rather thousand and fifteen sixty right of couch surfing and he might be bionic rip, but it's incredibly high risk generation very weird scene, because I grew up in marine county, which is supposed to be the wealthiest one of one of the wealthiest suburbs in the world right and we had one about highest suicide rates on earth. It was like Finland or japan. You know it's like, like just mass like something like fifteen percent of my high school in the four years I was there kill yourself, yeah, really amazing. I like not even not just at high school, but in probably fifteen years that followed, there is just a staggering amount of stuff interesting. I was all that what that generation of those type of people who lived in area. Most of them probably came to that area for specific selfish reasons yeah,
at the tubs and the flopping and the cocaine and that's it and they just like left their kids like without a sense of identity or structure, as these goddamn orthodontist and there's a sense of entitlement, you know what did they do? It was like. Why don't I don't think I experience it as much his eye, I try to you know, have some empathy, but it's hard. Well, you know my mother's big fallback excuses it with teeth and tie that one yeah and it's early yeah, okay, but I still can't have a relationship, and I blame you. It's true right to emotionally cripple I'm emotionally traumatized completely emotional ptsd, triggered by all kinds of an capable to receive or give love properly and completely distrusting of emotions that you and I should like, go to the same old folks' home and we can play backgammon for tranquilizer it'll be good.
I I never I haven't met. Anybody would specifically similar problems like that. But it's it's a really weird thing to you know you can forgive, I guess to a certain point, but then you still have to deal with. What is your emotional life? I mean we've obviously done ok for ourselves, we're korean people we worked hard at it too. I mean, I know you have writer shockingly scouring lee investigational of yourself. I mean right in the shows of yours, yeah. I'm always like you know it's like staring the sign of somebody, but how do you get over that shit that you didn't like dirt? There is hope that that the the idea, like. Why compare it myself now or I can make cognitive decisions to do things differently? It doesn't mean you're going to be comfortable, you're ever gonna get fucking comfortable and the bad should still feels better than the good shit. Exactly but this is this is examined, but there is also there's so many more layers of this, because I also think that we grew up- and I talk about this like further along in the book like I believe
Not only did we have me generation parents, but we also suffered from this sort of much larger form of social engineering, which I like to call sexual apartheid. Where I think that we have been conditioned by all of the forces of the media sits the since barbie angie, I joe you know who can play in the same place it together, because together they were the wrong scale. Yeah remember: barbie was too fucking tall, you couldn't like they couldn't interact, so you had the boys on one end of the playground and the girls over here, and then I think it has led to this, and then we have all of these. These mythologies, like the disney princess it supposed to get married. You know if you have the prom dress and then that's a gateway dress. You know, you know that wedding, dress, everything's about that goddamn, wedding, dress and europe for women are still condition to think that you're going to get married in your life is going to be solved in an even uneven
martin hateful girls, like me, like some terrible reptilian level, was wished. I'm sorry, I was still seeking out that that kind of strange the deliberate health because even realise how deeply it is embedded in your dna. At this point I mean we really do believe these terrible myths, like women, believe terrible myths. what men are and what they're supposed to be and men have terrible misunderstandings about us and what we're supposed to be, and then we each project all of these things onto each other all the time and we can't ever just sort of deal with each other. As is I don't think I don't think we deal with each other straight to expectation. Right until you get old enough that shit matters anymore, yeah, and then you can talk about. Let's just hang out we'll just sit here and drink some coffee or whatever yeah yeah. No, I guess that's true but like. If I think about myself, I never played with G. I joes I always felt so uncomfortable with just
not everything and like I just like squarely but like yeah and then eventually bust out, and you seek identity through your. What what what you were talking about the book through how's your when you learn how easy it is to become sort of something just by putting on your outfit there is always that you can sort of policy no job over. You know it also uses unity but you're also seeking some definition of self. I mean, like I dont, think like when I decided to dress like Tom waits. When I was sophomore and high hat dislike tom weights on the cover of night nighthawks at the irish that I was looking for an identity I dont think I had any real idea that, like you know, this was going to be our four or anything. I just want to be associated with something that seems set but seem, but it's also about how I think this is Do you find yourself and or your wardrobe and your personal style is like you know, you're not going to invent
god. Damn we'll again, it's like this. If you find yourself attracted to certain image ryan certain- and this is how you recognize a part of yourself and then I think that you know you correctly corporate. These aim then you're like ok. Well, maybe the brion said, sir. You know rock billy altidore and the really really pointy creepers aren't going to work for me into my thirties. You know that's funny, because a lot of those things only happen on album cover the rest of the time. Brian Setzer is wearing dockers, exactly and you know a polish or with a microsoft logo on it that so many of the things that we're modeling our entire lives around somebody someone else's job. It's really true, it's really true, and then I been. I do think that, like pervasive media, imagery kind of told us that we were supposed to dress like the fantasy, because there is this fantasy that the fantasy- and I call it the affair to see you know your capital, the tap capital fm just now, not in the book or anything, but
the start of this image of lifestyle that you see, unlike rap videos or in the ads for like in vogue or double your or high fashion magazines, where you see this impossible, I, where everybody lives amazing and perfectly pluck, didn't, trim, but, as you know, ass out into bikini and wearing jimmy choose, and you know, graciously accepting diamonds and looking half dead with tee. Hair? It's amazing, you know, but nobody really lives. That live. I mean look. The great lie, I think, is so economic. As you know, I mean it's like point: o o o o o one percent of the world, owning every in selling the mythology that this lifestyle exists and is attainable by you and I, while this lifestyle has never been attainable for people. Like me, I mean my family used to be middle class and now we're, like a walker evans, photo
if you've got the the old truck filled with for a home, the bath maths. You know like on the on the on the clothesline with a ham radio antenna, it's grim grim. Why don't? Why think like? Just by that percentage? Number like it it's fair to say that really no one lives like that. Well I mean I god. What was that statistic and I'm going to be really close if this isn't actually a bit eighty six people in the world one fifty six per cent of everything that is a winnable on planet earth and when you think about you, know incredibly rich it's like what does somebody do with thirty three billion dollars a year that they may need to make? More than that I mean it's like. I don't even think that if you can abstractly quantify the spending of thirty three billion dollars like organic, I'm gonna go we're Iowa four miles, deepen pumpkin zoonotic. If you can't, the way to spend it. You shouldn't be able to have power.
this power man anything it's that point. Its abstract world, and the only thing that they're doing is keeping it from you or people- I mean, I know just hoarding and making sure that you can't get Anita horrider ism wasn't a thing that you and I heard about that- those that was too cool, guys house. in San Francisco. You know a hoarder you're like wow. This is a lot of shit got issue. Sixteen of mad magazine, exact, is so cool, yeah man I like a bordering on ordering a hoarding in here now my bookshelves are easily that cram packed with love, stuff. I mean you know it's all interesting phone that yeah, but how did but you priory most years I read some at my. I read some of mine. I actually dont think you need to read the whole book of anything except my books. Emmy cultural criticism is or criticism and general. That's always been one of the areas where it like. I think you make a very accessible niger. Really accessible is accessible. Why do you keep saying that?
I dunno, I think we'll I was intimidated by like I didn't think I could. Just you know, jump off the deepest reading get out to lose. What did you understand the loose? I liked you could do? Who is very much, but you know I also feel cheated a lot like. I would I would turn you know. My introduction into a lot of critical thinking was by buying those four dummies or idiots ceramic boy. You know there's gave me some sort of solid ideas and then I could go out the oppose modernism for dummies, I'll actually fucker. You know, and then I could go regional capitalism and schizophrenia and go. I can't get it again. I've gotta and put our sitting over there about I've talked about it with three people. They know that the book exists like I'm, never going to get through, can't I'm never going to get through the first in the first ten minute. I know, but only part. I know I think I just drop it in and then I sound smart as you like.
What I mean by cheating, what where'd you go to college? I did not go he's not go at all. Why don't? I did a couple of semesters san francisco state worded like afro, haitian dancing and marijuana selling. they died out us and then we went and then he started writing place. And then I started writing place because I was with dude theatre, which was a really weird like that. It was out of club flight, which is one of the old programme venues. Where was a way out on third street in San francisco, like when you know next to the old dockyard, since two o really the I was we're like sonic youth used to play right on man, it was it was. It was before my time, but by the time I got there was a punk rock theater and we did like careers theatre riah with with dude, and I met Chris Brophy, who is one of the founders of dude by selling him marijuana at san francisco state?
and he incorporated me into the fold and then when dude stopped casting me because I was too stoned. I started writing my own players. I was like fuck that I'll cast my you got some attention, like I remember like you're sort of like a civil war. Okay yeah, everyone isn't making any money, but you know it's like. I definitely got exploited by a number of institutions that I was very happy to be exploited by a dinner place like travel. Did they make money? Do that? Are they done marketplace dying you been all day dad or not. If I see eye to eye on ya know, I day I had one play like when the last may then French's publish any of them now frightened, but I did get one published by, like some weird other lesser put a publishing AL it, but it was called the triple x, love act right me out. I did it magic theatre, just because I hated the artistic director there's so much that I wanted him to have to put their own the marquis
and now that had some legs I mean I saw about fourteen productions of that all over the united states and then decided, finally, that it was a terrible terrible play because even the greatest production of iowa, where I saw were John cameron, mitchell and fisher steve. It's all these great actors wanted. It was still bad nebulous. It was my fault. I was acknowledged, as the writing is well is no there there were you going to tell them that their actor to figure that out. You know it's always it about. I was about the Mitchell brothers. Remember the mirror brothers yeah they if they ran the sex imports, have a beautiful potencies you that poster in the bathroom. Why didn't you even notice? I did it, but I've got to go back and look that we go over. The play was about my play was about the Mitchell brothers murder. Try to make a movie that once and I was called into a million little weird, independent, abandoned film groups like and I met with sean pen in no doubt about it, and then
emilio esteve, as and Charlie sheen ended up doing right now they called x rays, which had nothing to do with through your point was based on that their relationship in the murder I my play was based on the meliodas diverse vehicle. You there's no way I do is I know, but I haven't casting poster like like that was put up. I got on telephone pulse, cast Mitchell brothers now casting for nineteen, seventy, in the film production. Get out silkscreened that place is legendary. You know that hunter s thompson was your night, the night manager they had a business card. I think someone I know has a business card of hunters from when he was doing that just hilarious, what you mean he was basically just drug. You know they're, drunk and they're sad cause. He used to see him like that. Tosca and shit like he was. He did. He influence you at all, utterly intolerable. Remember, name off. My new book is fear and clothing that our diet,
no you're not, but by like his essays, do what you like. He was very succinct van when I was in eighth grade or have to thank you TIM madison, wherever you are the stone, this boy in my Eighth grade when I was a completely unsuspecting, larva of a blind person walked up to me after lunch when time and his eyes were spending any open, fair and loving. It wants vegas, as we said, we were halfway to bar stow and the drugs kicked in a basically read me. The whole first page It is kind of stared at him open mouthed for a minute and he just cut it nodded at meal. It yeah you know, as I do I have to say I was intrigued. You know I'd. I, when I got the book- and it was all over for me from that point on great right, so that was the brain change that and there is an issue and when my dear friends is tat, man do you know tat man.
He was an editor at national and pain, and then he went on to write a bunch of lightly went dead wood. He wrote hatfield smugglers. He's writing. I like tat, mccoy, actually he's a. brilliant right, like I don't know that moving like it was like on his work on the history channel words exactly yeah. I ended up watching one item like while this a real move, all the greatest thing that I mean football for me, the biggest influencing the ted ever did was nineteen. Eighty two and I was working with seven eleven, He wrote the utterly monstrous mine roasting summer of policy in syria, rainbows stags, re e, entire hair. All wrote that I'm sorry I'm bellowing. I live. I'm so enthusiastic, I mean I I remember that two, whereas ring lampoon, I what the fuck poverty, that the aid is doggie a copy of it that, like I like it, was so like the edges, we're afraid, because I read it so many times I mean I have pages of that thing. Memorize aims to give it s a z, rocks it off page by patient, given to people for christmas. If I really love because when I gave my mom one year, the devil,
These are those who deny their man we're and loathing, and other things take great adventure I like I can beat yet. I also read some. You know those two jansky and shed for those aren't it's fun to talk about John five I'm not a fund head man and eyed man, though I could, I think, those pride the last time that lampoon was good like around. and a a b pretty much eighty two yeah you gotta kind of go backwards on the right right. After nine eleven like everybody was freaking her out and buying cans of tuna fish and stuff. I basically gone on Ebay and bought all the old national lamp. the alarm, because I've I've only, die, that's what I I want to be I want to. I want to get killed while reading national have put magazines you turning its job in it. No, I needed to renew. I think that just came out like I gotta screener, and there was great I let go shit I didn't know- was really great about lampoon about
Well history of it, I'm I'm dying just like I still have a resentment against my like. I had a second cousin who lived in cambridge, Jane and Jim. My father's cousin jane, who I used to stay with the and they were all your right and he had the first like three or four years of the lampoons. in binder starting an episode one- and I was always like how do you gotta give those to me if get rid of them and and he never did and one time as this book store in boston ease, bookstore, who was on like new, very street, and I saw those ones out of them. and her with his name on Canada. Account is when fuckin got wow, that is you know, that's a relative to never speak to again and yeah. I know that's that's a crime that they were so good man yeah. I hate that that makes that that makes me angry and also somebody so mother fucker, and I'm going to dedicate my life to hunting them down and killing them like in the in the new york public library. They actually have binders, with a complete set of national mps as
somebody stole those second one were like. I was the good years it always the those bastards gone gone like somebody just pimped it. So, let's go, let's go first day what you learn- oh god I mean, as I did, was your thesis confirmed very myself. Yet you that my kind of went crazy. Do you know when you like, learn too much too fast and you kind of start babbling and encourage sense, as your agent starts worrying about you and stuff that was made for quite a while and yeah, I was looking at codes fashioned codes like trying to be extremely ridicule, vest and sort of figure out like what is the code of this region. So, like I'm washington DC, where everybody is frequently conservative, all the time because sartorial live. Terms of their address. They just don't want to tell you anything about themselves, because they want to be this. Blank canvas for you to project power fantasies on so like they just wear the same like Brooks brothers
and an taylor lofty. I grew bread secretary burka. office were for you and its expensive, but not too expensive, rhino practical fitted, but not too fitted roads like now dowdy, but not revealing I mean it's theirs is really absolutely invisible. Tight roper that dc fashion is insulted, its deliberately boring. So it deliberately tells you nothing about you know, because if you look at people on the street, you can say you can extrapolate a lot by looking at them. You can say: yes, you are sexually active as you have a job that pays over thirty thousand dollars. You ass, you probably own a cat. Can you like ninety percent the time all the time? I am forty? I I think that if you start looking people with an eye to how much can Irene
about you and your life and your intelligence and how you want to be perceived and what you think your future looks like me. I think you can pick a tremendous amount of that if the actual, if it's a liking, if they dressed like give them. I just you know going to the store in there, even if they're going to the store to swine another underline line, I in your book, we are all at our most psychologically naked when we have our most deliberately selected clothes on. I think. That's very very true has explained that to me. Well I mean because we're always no were full of flaws. As people and perceived flaws and things that we think are, with us or our bodies, and I think that you know where, where that becomes especially relevant to you, as in your closet, when you're getting dressed in the morning until you're going to dress defensively against all of your own perceived we, this is a very kind of you. I definitely do by highly. I am we're all black oil tankers and terrified of everything really not sure.
It's like. Well I mean I try to. I look all death, a death, goblin death girl, because I'm really so wimpy and while I enter, I have I've sort of leveled off on primarily plaid shirts, but I definitely have once when I'm feeling fat and when I'm not feeling that
No, I don't have you noticed my drop crotch leather trial right now by down. I'm just gonna tell you: if you want a game, an extra twenty, the draw crotch will serve you. Well, no one will ever know they're like maternity pants for hipsters great do nor with the baby you're trying to hide is registered in cable, no, where we will enter a motion or stuffing my parasitic twin, shut up sites or dc. That's where you are no doubt by me. While I was trying to get my took too long to get to know, I tried to get everything down to a fashion statements write to me. The fashion statement of Washington DC was like a freedom of information act document with all the relevant information blacked out. So I decided that the decent fashion statement was rejected by made set its government yeah. You know I'm u like, where I went to a self beach for the first
it's basically isn't it great. I mean it's like you're in the where I don't even know. What's going on there, it's ridiculous! I can't wake up my mother lives in hollywood florida and you drive into south beach. It's like what country, or we do every way crawling orange miser, armies and everybody's just naked in jewelry. It's like rome is fantastic, though, when I just and you know this fashion. Statement in miami is a sector which I think makes it. That's it That short, you know it's like yeah, but it's also like the one thing I felt I feel down. There is in in in a lot of ways because of what you're talking about is. Is someone you're going there as a journalist or somebody is going to experience whatever, but but the the weird thing is just like: how do I interface with this? there's definitely parts of the country where, even though I'm not dressed in any way, you have that definitive But, like I don't know how to interface here I don't wanna go indices, one of em we lose south beecher MIKE. I can even begin a conversation you there is a very fine
story. I went with a with a guy friend who was my photographer robert brink, who does a lot of photography for skateboard magazines and stuff and he's he's a good writer he's been around a long time and he went to be my product, because I told him I wanna go to game day at all, miss because all mrs were you know, you have, no god all of his ta all ironed blonde hair butter, scotch leg, you know but nosed alter its sheer leader right, attica, eugenics, so he's like yeah, I'm coming over there, so we were told we went to oxford, mississippi, we're look blogs. You know wearing like these many dresses with like that are of football jerseys with like the big padded shoulders and the number on, and we talk to some boys, because the boys all dressed like their legs Wendy five year old southern lawyers right. You know it where's your lawyer, and strive for tat very much like oh gentlemen- will write in polish not afraid we're pink and I was with a
frank who is dressed like more or less like you or I. Alternatively, he had an army jacket and a plaid shirt on and a pair of like skateboarding shoes, and they said, and they were very polite. You know the the of the southern boys are very, very polite, but they said you they. They broke it to him very gently that he would not get any section in the lady area in and around all miss re outfit that he had on an ef. He would be recommended to the alternative bar which they took to being gay. Now as I and aim at they said. Yes, I had one of the guys was like. I definitely had to change my style into much more aggressive, preppy styling, because I look but essentially like that guy I got here, but doesn't that has something to do with the like in terms of the the cultural critique that that really has to do with almost plan merit. That is exactly right. That's exactly what I mean. What they have to do is pollinate and give the right that the children at all miss our pollinating
right, enormous tropical flowers at each other and a boy. I read or write polo colors of well polo and lawns, and they end up together. They do they do then, with a girls go there looking for and they have their bits about mating, essentially ralph mating and wealth, aristocracy, yes, and in the south there very blatant about this too. I mean, unlike the coasts. I do find this to be a social different, but then what go with them, but from there you, when you did some, you did some work with the other side of the south, right. The more em. Why me now the other side this out, but like more working class, more camera, I wearing I mean you know you're talking about well, I've actually thousand kansas. But I don't like that, but there is that class. Have there. There is a code that, because in the south I mean you have that southern aristocracy. You ve got plenty of what I imagine that class, a person things as hill people,
Oh sure, yeah, that yeah exactly they have their own codes as well. Oh sure, the backward people are that and that's where hipsters aspire to exactly. We want our beards and we wanted to pickle things, but I mean fashion is very tribal and it's very tribal and it's very referential to it's own. You know a three block radius. I think in a lot of ways where you know your group of friends. well, what happened in Kansas, I thought you were referring to this is passage about Kabila's. Have you have been to Kabila's that's more, like hunting fashion, you said camel. So I thought because it is like commode disney is sort of like if disneyland was devoted totally to stir fucking killing and eating large game animals in various shades of camouflage, unlike gillies suits with like doc blinds. Unlike you know, incredible, like
age weapons and then meet slices and another section, and up and also taxidermy, that is like its. It rivals the new york natural history museum in turn. Quantities of taxidermy, but it's all stage in these ways that it's like this hobbs. war of all against all like where, like you know, it's she'd eyes are- jumping over. You know the gun rack to attack a zebra who is then kit, in the face of a lion at the same time and then as a bunch of wild beasts are like down like a shale mountain, that's so stupid there crashes in private home ground out? All this is in this enormously. We give you took a common cause then had it by a secessionist group of people who hate animals with a lot of artillery that were end then put a natural history museum that was full of
agony and killing, and that was in kansas sets chairs. What's it called Kabila's man? No, it's really a site, It's I mean it's, it's an it's! An awesome of america under there is even a log cabin hotel, an extra with its own waters lead yeah that everything for the family people come from out of town. I mean it is aerial: destination, yeah, death, Paradise. I went to the creator museum in petersburg, your petersburg. What is in kentucky was Jesus writing, a dinosaur, sure yeah. They got that guy stuff, no way Adam and eve was like they were quietly sort of like sitting with dinosaurs. Just u dont? Colleagues as yet just right. Therefore they should I use, or even some flowers and adam and eve before we discovered we are generals, we could hang out with terrorist act, all yeah. It was all good. We rode definite that god, while in a man world original sin, where else did you go to? I went to savannah, which will last guy I lived in Alaska. I was a kid really. My dad was in service. Ok,
and seventy one that makes sense when you go over and see word or anchorage anchorage sure was that base called out. There was a fuck. I don't remember that was a. It was a spooky you're dead, no, no, no, he just ass. He went in his you're after after medical school you get in west. As an officer to finish out, I think, is his residence rights, anything the kind of like he just like it. At that time he could have gotten after you might again drafted. I remember, but if you were a doctor, yeah you He was a major event in as a major new states, Edna alaska, yeah, It's not a bad place to be station from what I understand why I remember I remember having a profound impact on my brain just this is it a snowmobile fumes that you have today? I knew it shall I go out of some of you and I just remember there was wreckage on the internet from the sixty three earthquake had yet in their resort in everything was so gray up there all the time it felt like all gray, strange place and its it's interesting to me that alaska, like one of them
jabbing capitals of the world really yet I heard that I read it and then you go into these gifts stores and you see that their selling, all these like walrus bone like shark murdering knives you'd rather than it will just carry around without his participant, I've got a seal with yeah exactly arrives. I will, if you need to kill the seal today. When you know we ve got the nice description. Knife freed india, with like you scissor to let what are getting stab with those kind things. I guess I mean I dunno. I heard that a lot of people got stabbed or because they carry never carry knives g, wise, erodes button called and people do Warmly? I mean that was it. You know that's of a moot point, the version of alaska right, it's very much dressing not to die from freeze and which is looks you now very similar to other parts of the heavy layer like Juno Jackson. Why may not dissimilar? Does he have
like layering out of necessity, launch of polar place layers and then did you do new england aid to wait. Where do I go? Why is sort of talked about it? little bit about rhode island can attica things I mean I I was there I mainly there's a lot of places that I went that I didn't spend a whole lot of time writing about. I was trying to kind of because I had to finance all these travels myself. I didn't get a big enough book advance to actually do it right, so I had to. I had to sort of pick my battles but sure new england. I mean yeah what what they call the cardiac belt, because for some reason I divided all the regions into belts, because it's about fashion, GAD belts, scout regions, so yeah, that's, apparently the cardiac belt. Its word Well, if you go from main essentially to tear connecticut, that's where I, like, all the white men eat too much, pork, etc. I think so yeah. or pot roast, or something I'm not sure. What doing wrong, but I have a lot of strokes. I, like maine,.
Why didn't I didn't? I wasn't I like the country up there. I spent time in new england, I, like layering yeah. I do too a glaring at its always nice to get that look sort of pan tone, sheds of like muted faded, t shirt, scar, gone review that ogre t shirt and then the faded, burgundy t and then with a really nice kind of like matching clause, pleasure we will truly be old corduroy, like carter over the knees blown out, I kind of like here professorial, yeah act. Lay like you know. I was gone. She were gonna die, contained yadda, yadda, doing that for awhile. A country would now he wrote distress and, like I m big on quarter, I I got them so excited to cool down here sector, where my new fills in. Where are you added tweedie period, a timely, I'm sorry
why why I'm definitely a quarter right, I'm still kinda in corridor. You know, I have to say I'm one of the one of the times I ran into you on the street in soho and you were very, very dashing. You are on your way to some important meeting. You had a very elegant, tweed jacket on and a colorful scarf. Oh, I like scar that wow mark swing, colourful scarf. He must be successful. I don't know, I think I was affected. No, you looked happy. I knew you were on a good trajectory. Why I like overcoats- and I, like scarves, advocates of gun I wouldn't want to see a return to, like the say anything overcoat. You know I got. You remember like to say that your lower your eyes. The light here were all the people in highschool wore those kind of really shapeless, large overcoat. I love those those you get them at thrift stores a huge old overcoat. You can't find them anymore, but they were a great thing. You know where you can get stuff like that, like for pretty cheap is in places where they don't like. If you go to a nordstrom rack in a place that, like hot all year round, it's true that that's where you can find the good over
I just cannot find them in gabardine and are rarely go to a bar called should be. Gabardine is a true little gallery. I can't like I can't dress in fancy clothes, because I sweat a lot and just destroy quality gabardine is made for like sweaty fifties. Businessman is ideal. It's like what rodeo stars war and stuff I mean really yeah. It's sort sounds like that. Really thick beautiful weave, it's got like what is it a re honour somewhere? That guardian was just like when you see those really tightly what it's like? The thousand fred count she set Eisenhower jacket. Colleagues are here, you don't know what I'm talking about like those ike waistcoats ethic military issue. What like before Fonzie world letters, I could write a word that sort of white islands. As you know, I used to love those does or then if they had slightly padded shoulders because they were from like the former or early fifties. That would be a gabardine jack I used to like those those military waistcoats. Oh yes,
I remember- I had a couple of those I can remember. How will that was without was a thing. You are a military waistcoat withdraw crotch pants. You can gain thirty, and no one will tell you not a plan that was so like. Ok, so after all this, what kind of closure did you get for? A four year four year thesis and also with yourself in your parents and america, and I mean all of my problems right at all alone that we set out to do with with cultural criticism. Come come arrive at something we mean that I've got it all now. I address every array the offer of all against anybody, but you'd like I got very it say it was a complicated journey for me, but basically it was kind of about don't you, tyrannised by fashion or any other form of social brainwashing
No, how they're doing it No, who is doing it too, you know what it looks like you know like a guy to save it like a louis vuitton bag is absolutely meaningless as a fashion statement, because it's so pervasive, the only thing that is declaring it's, it's not as it's not an act of individuality. It's a it's! A it's a state! of your tax bracket, it's only a its separation of your economic condition from everybody who can afford a louis for tom, back
And then I go to them are fake anyway, exactly immediate ridiculous. I don't they go to fourteenth street is with its gang, colors, india and sort of like it's your saying, fuck you, your poor and I'm not going colours for people were doorman yeah, it's in its view, not it's kind of tasteless and respect, because it's that I never say anything else. I never go as you know, and I am all for europe- somebody's got their old cram. Mothers live at home. Bagger, like you know, it's always aware, is to see kids in their grandpas gucci, slippers or jane. You know I love all its other designers. It's got some personal residence for you. I don't care whose label is on it sure I mean from pay less shoes source to louis return was essentially the pall star of human fashion. Evil, like involve fine, you know
just as long as you know why you have as long as it is meaningful to you and actually says something about you, and I think that you know most of em cause bottle ism seeks to hide you from yourself and your community and your vows iron yeah. I mean it's like it's about making you an isolated consumer who feels like a robot. If I heard you know those other it's people like me more and you don't put see it's weird, because you don't really realize that happens until like into like everyone's wearing it, and it's like the the idea that there's watching goes on and in capitalism on EU aid is in its it's part of its agenda and it's part of its consciousness, but it's just the rules of the game, but you don't you somehow like people like me, you think, or how can it? How can I be? How can I be a victim
because I live outside the box here. You think you do, but you don't all of a sudden, like I'm I'm buying records in every fucking of your idiot hipsters buying records. I dunno how that happened. Oh my god, you will. The really scary thing that I found out just scared. The shit out of me when I was reading about attacker because he's really talking about how motivational psychology that they apply in advertising treats the brain as three separate levels of current This like where there is the front of your brain. You know earlier wordy young stuff and all your consciousness is- and this is where you think you are young. You think you're in this is like your superego, arises, this is where your motivations use. You know what they are and you're willing to admit what they are and then there's a second level of motivation where you might sort of what you want and why you're doing what you're doing, but you might not be willing to admit it to other people, because it might sound like you're a little bit selfish or you know right arm in some way. It's you, you might feel like you, have some ugly reasons for doing what you're doing a third.
layer of consciousness, which is where all advertising and political campaigns are focused witches. In two that shit into the back of your brain, which is where all bets are off of illnesses like straight to the aid. This is why sigmund freud was terrified of all human beings. if of his life? I really like this is where you are, innovations are so murky. You don't know what they are and even, if you did you'd be so horrified by them, you would never admit them to yourself right. So that is where all the fun happens in terms of brainwash and that's what they're trying to mine? That's We, let's get it like, weaken guide. They were no that so well and they knew it enough fifties. They know it. Nineteen, fifty seven. If they can they just through the other two I make? I buy the thing all why, god the things that they can implant into your brain? Now I mean I'm, it's it's beyond comprehension. Really I mean it's like they have your number there dial it repeatedly.
they ve manchurian candidate, it everybody to a certain extent, I'm to a large extent to a huge extent. I don't think it eddie He who grew up in american, the last twenty years has any idea how to live a human life. Really, I mean we're just these robots is that guy who died in a camper van, you know out in alaska. They made a movie about a mouse, the only guy, I know the while adds actually fucked up will apply in all the mushroom. Gelding have ours that even have to die that guy was dignity, dollars, integrity and letting the mushroom kill him and not. You know we're iraq, but yeah I mean, I think that there is a better optimistic up be way to court I love you. I love you too. It's always a great deep pleasure phone book without fearing clothing, unbuckling american style censure wilson, the genius yes
lover. I love central wilson. anyway. What else? This is, if the end of the show just remember, goaded deputy of fog that comparable that stuff and go get how that at them? If you want to hear all the archives and have them with you, when you want them, how can I not find my the Hmm,
boomer lives.
Transcript generated on 2022-09-09.