Marc was blown away by author Paul Beatty's celebrated novel The Sellout and wanted to know how a writer can turn a stew of ideas about identity, race, pride, language and representation into a provocative and hilarious book. Paul visits the garage to provide some answers and reflection. Plus, Marc's friend Jackie Kashian stops by to talk possums, iguanas, sci-fi, and her new comedy album.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
All right. Let's do this, how are you what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies, what the protesters, what the fuck makes what is happening. I am mare- and this is my podcast w welcome to it got a cup. People on the show. Today we got a nice talk with oh baby, the author of the cell out a novel Ghana blew my mind. Zaza written some other stuff I haven't gotten to yet, but the sell out. I got two and its work. Funniest. Fuckin books have ever read really just layer upon layers of money and deep and cutting and smart and I needed to talk to that guy, so he's here today also friend, jack education will be here to day. She's got a new record out. I am not
the hero of this story. It's out now she drew By for a little bit always likes jackie makes me laugh she's one of the people, makes me laugh how's it goin out there for you, people are you all right? friday night this friday I'll be in us in taxes neck. Who am I gonna, go to appease barbecue spice Zack gonna happen. Doo doo I pills array stat see. I haven't gotten into that mindset. I haven't gotten into the mindset where I stands me I can eat whatever the fuck. I right I haven't gotten to that mindset yet because I haven't gotten the blood tests to see how they're doing next week and bolder colorado at the boulder theatre april. Seventh, at the paramount theatre april, eight and those are the new to us as far as dates go like I said, the shows have been good. I've been A good time stretching it out do an hour and a half to our shows tat.
Fine that our ten for this special that we taping in many capitalists. If I you're a you know, that's another thing when I tell you about that, if you're in minneapolis, I'm gonna be do two shows at the pantages theatre. on April, twenty ninth for a network. Special Let's assume everything will be in place inter in terms of the world and most the federal government I'll, be there. Are we doing that sucker? Today, you gotta w tia pod dot com, swash tour to get linked up to that tickets, air and sea, the rest of the dates coming up in portland and fairly? d c in madison, nanda Milwaukee, ah yeah. We did oakland last week with dino. dean del ray, we did the fox theo. Ok what what a stunning venue what an amazing theatre that was. It
pretty good time. We had a good show. Dino did good. I did get I've been dealing with some odd. Gliding in the room lately for some reason. I'm in the middle of my set in oakland. and then some guy just start screaming, say you can save john for shanty you're. The guy, that can save John for shot. The have john for shot down to show you can save him and ok, you know I don't mind engaging with the audience a tad And you know what I said earlier. I hear you- I mean it might be a tall order to save on four shanty from what I understand but dumb, but maybe you know I may be any just as I settled them down they just screaming I escaped screamin it and I guess they removed him very odd hackle. I don't. I would call it ankle as much as a disruption or a desk plea to
to have somebody out, but it was odd in it was jarring and I read at a regional and reconnect. and move on battle. And you know I don't mind pleasant crowd interaction, but then we are going to seattle the following night: and it was good. It was a good choice. Love seattle saw some nice people at dinner within Sheldon. She can be acting maya, netflix special. She lives up there. and that was cool and there we go to the show from there I open for me, yogi. polly wall he didn't your job, how to deal with a little weirdness from the crowd, the latter. lot of wooing- which ok, In context, maybe at the beginning- but I you know, you guys know how I feel about that then there's a woman, a brandy was drunk. He just kept talking just captain and to me kept talking at me for the rest of the room? I couldn't hear it, but it became
disturbing and disrupting. She kept interrupting I would dare I would tell you to shut up in a nice way and then I apologise for being abrasive, but by the time I was like you know, shut the fuck up enough already than she I have said the man she was with her got up. So is it yeah well intentioned, but unnerving in and disruptive in there you, I felt myself being guarded known of defensive and I felt myself drifting an old habits in wanting to burn the sat down and it but there, but I did not. I did not do that and all in all it was nice to be in seattle, and I was very excited on sunday to be going vancouver to be flying vancouver because I love vancouver. Love that city, I've always loved that city and now even more on some level. Just two and I've taught others before recently just to fly in or to get off the plane. in canada to feel the cold. It will shift the weight of the
malignant kind of culture, darkness set is upon us here even even if we are now giving your phone, even if you're, not looking at tv, you just feel the weight of the shift, into this sum this since an uncomfortable and frightened environment down here and there sort of step into the world of vancouver, which, as you know, beauty integrated nice. Calm people were pleasant there, not just pull but the warm and maybe I'm romanticizing, maybe I'm generalizing, but I felt relax and my opener charlie as de mares, very bright, funny guy and I I just relaxed and and up and then the following day. I stayed in extra day because I like, and coover so much I went to am I went to this place
that made shoes in. I don't always go out into the world and you know engage or why you, but you know I like boots, These people were very nice and very earnest, and it's called of jewels, leather, shoes, company they stop small and they are still really small, but they it's almost like a shoe made to order place because there such demands, so I went over there too. We are part of an coover that seemed a little industrial. I didn't know I was getting into or where I was or what the low down was, and I go to the drastic, an unmarked building. I go upstairs. It's like an artist, a building work there spaces for creative people, but mostly art is functioning working artists acknowledge their functioning but their working. Dad this love jewels, whether company the shoe company. They got this big corner space up top where they're making boots and shoes, a bunch of nice young folks. You know artisan the issue of whether shoe artisans, making the stuff
and I got to talk and everybody in the measured my feet, they're going to make me some some shoes. And it was one those moments. Where I'm in vancouver like the food. I, like the people, the scenery great. What could I just come up here and and in turn. At a shoe making place. Could I become a cobbler I That might be the next. I I'd debts My fantasies is disappearing. to some other part of the world, where I just cobble where I just We work quietly, bend. Weather over souls. I can do math. focus I can do it Jackie kay is a great friend of mine and I think she's very funny, she got a new record out, I'm not the hero of the story and get it now. She also hosts the podcast, the Forest envy, Jackie lorry show which he does with Lord kill. Martin, who also love so
stop by so this is me and Jackie. Hang it now for a few minutes. There are many possible there's a whole family, possum someone I create me, laugh out here like gargoyles rate, he was too blossoms and three baby possums. It was kind of acute got you out, stayed my car. That's my my feeling on it as a baby. Possums are cute and then something bad happened. They don't stay cute. They just there's nothing there. An appealing about party in the way of moves. There was yet the wattle it was. You know I am pretty. Good, seeing it as a complete family as much as anyone sure, and so it was lovely to watch them. But I was not getting there, though, isn't that sweet that there are altogether those ugly horrible things that are, I think
electively harm, harmless, but they're just but Superinducement, aiding listening to irving looking ass, so wait now The agreement is old. Now get iguanas old, any got em right back in the day value more like what data you buying aguano, he didn't. He was working and play station only play station. Is your house's zeiner, my husband, and see you should know before you ask and email me jack education, dot com? What happens to the work on here's, the famous game? He worked on, god of war to god for three of those those other variables zactly at an end, he was part of a large large teams. Take that calm down. It's a great, it's a great job, your correct, but he said, origins he's a gene, ok and lovely so his because when it was getting level designer buddy shows up at the at work with three glonass that the guy impulse bought a really yeah, but If my for I don't buy much, but I think that would be a I wouldn't impulse buy an animal on a dare I don't impulse buy anything that eats three of them iguanas,
three and a half feet long, so yeah After seeing any rights, you can't really go like I'm just going to let it go where I oh yeah, yeah. No, no, then it'll be in the sewers of that los angeles doesn't have, but the the crazy thing is is so he was like who wants an iguana after his alerted to this fact. So one another guy work took one those today, to go bottom and the other guy. They killed her gwan, as in the first year they killed them on purpose. None. They accidently quotas are actually quite difficult to get to maturity because their tiny there, like the size of my hand when their little right and you have to come to make sure they get enough light and the right kind of light, and all these things, how you guys really cared for the reptile Andy as the one
not. I am so now you have this sort of old go up or goes. Hooking vary, my ego iguana. He is regal, he is an anti various drac. This is his name. Of course it is yes, it's named after the roman general tiberius gratis, because Andy is over educated yeah, nothing wrong with that. I guess always never! Never have a shortage of conversation. I never ever a dull moment. So what I haven't seen you in years. I feel like that plans for about a year and a half easily. I think really. I think I saw you that my favorite im seeing in the last couple of years was I pulled into the emperor, the comedy store right and you yelled at me. What do you do at irritation, and I said what are you doing here and I'm like I'm on the wall? What are you doing there and I was like I'm just looking for free barking on the wall. I have to be yeah billion year on our heads. It's been prophesies, the privacy is given
in all areas where people tell me. I say things, unlike what an asshole and actually made me laugh whatever. Whenever anybody asked me to do that, I'm always like what supporting situation. Cause. That's all I want to tell you care about it. After a certain age, I'm done I'm like I'm like books. We never work. The laugh factory either, but I'm like has the the well he's still there. Yes I'll, do it I'm willing to pay ten bucks to to. I never worked there because I don't know really where to parking and they send you behind this building and you're, not sure if it's ok right
I don't work there because I don't know where to park either hilarious, so we don't work there because we're like lauderdale clear to me why cause like you drive up and then they you know someone told me once you pull into that. There's a building across the street on the same side of the street go through an archway and then you go into the back of this apartment. La La and you've already lost me well, but it never felt right yeah. It was one of those situations where you lock the car and you're like he. Surely is alright years I'm going to get because I don't yeah it's why the emperor has always been my regular club of choice because they have red single live or my nora behind program. I've been there. No one time. I don't know why, because like I feel like if I
if not enough of the store environment, town and I can knock out three sets a week for said, omg yeah, you know just to stay in shape, so I going to the gym. How much do I have to exercise weekly to get my my comedy heart rate up? What do I do that podcast now with kilmartin? I love her. I love you both. How is that thing? It's hilarious, but it's what's it called it's called the jackie and laurie show a nerdist okay and it is hilarious only because she wants to do three sets a night and so she is hardly in this mode of compassion Well, how many sets my getting this weekend? What are you guys legal new comics? When are you? Are you just start now? I just ok you're just pass the album just dropped it's all. I am not the euro of the story. I m. The year of the story, Jackie occasions, new album, that's right! For the first time ever I made all those lists. You never even been close to making any of those like itunes, amazon, billboard
Nothing! Congratulations! You browse translating the sale, Jackie! I have no idea. My father also lives and would like to know how you and I assume, behind out any sound exchange two months from Why you should? I ever did, but you making people are buying, it is on a label. He adds on stand up out of virtuous off the actual, a lot of our unity and quit acting together. Oh I right am I right our I'm dislike, I recorded it does the wheat december Twenty six to twenty eightth crucial issue is always a great champion of stand up annually. A very sort of pick your sir craftsman of these stand up record. Sometimes times bites of mourning. Chip like he'll take too many projects on not I've done, I think, He Marie released one of my albums any did too. So I am, I know, the dance system yeah now get those we're checks. You had the where ex every through every month. What I always some miles thing with that is, as I said, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be kind of a jack
about this. In writing. As I want to talk about as far as I this year, it's record yes as far as I'm concerned, with any recording, I'm done as far as I'm concerned. Just slap it together cut it into tracks. I've, given you, the art, will call it one. How many shows did you record for he recorded all seven? Oh, my god, it's seven shows that that's what it is see that's biting off more than you can show. I listen to my own set five times yeah and I and I really I knew that it was probably going to be thursday night set and that's what it was. And then I pulled a couple of jokes that I did better on friday for show. Oh, you made these decisions and told him entirely. No good. I am a. I am a little low cd about my comedy, so it's my album. I'm going to I'm going to listen to my own. It's drive me nuts to listen to my own jokes, five hours of which I'm gonna common to try. You know. Essentially I pick the tracks, im time code yeah I and then he put it together and mastered it, and then he gave it back to me and then I cut them into tracks, and then I gave it back to him and then given the art and then he and then I
the tracks immediate release some of the naming of the drugs have the cover come out. That's always did tricky wonder that always ends up being regretful right. is only ever would. Instead, like company records, you move over because I've done it to where you just do that. Fucking cover and you're like this is great and you're like what the fuck was. I thinking, why am I wearing that hat? I've only regretted one cover the one that I didn't have anything to do with, because, thing is. I try not to regret anything that that I sweated over man- I just let it go on like this one is. I'm not the euro, the story and a woman who did a lot of fan art we as a great art, monsieur. I had you ultimately yeah. She did you did that I am dressed like a dan frontier in front of a ghost, a conestoga wagon right, so he did go the comedy element. I will. I thought it was funny
that that's always the thing that bites you in the ass when you're, looking back at your album cover. So well, you remember to TIM, Cavanaugh tim cavanaugh. Remember his headshot. Was him tied down with a bunch of army guys on top of them, like the lilliputians, do kind of remember that it's hard not to see that that headshot when you're working the road? Look at that thing in the middle? Oh, my god, that is hilarious me with the two pairs of glasses and then doing the ones on the top of my head, like lenin yeah, that was my first headshot
You should see my mind had a lot of cleavage. They used to sign it on the cleavage wish you were here good at. I guess, he's assay hilarious. Keep writing patient, keep right, oh my god, so dumb. So what is this your second or third record for north guy? I'm just keep turning the mountain. Do they just sort of like? Does anyone give a shit illegal in people who like who I've never already? If I've got five seats? It that's right. I just did a nerd crews with with like minded individuals and so many people's like I've. Never you're really funny. I never heard of you know my I've kept secret mother, like twelve those people gather very young, the veterinary forget how they can hear their even of space and Debbie filled their brain up enough, yet right wearing exposed to an early start new, a narrow, swash swathe of stuff. I recommend you start with the bread, album listeners marin and then you can go to horror cracks and then you go to this fuckin. Thank exact circus people go back if your jones is that, first of all point out as it was ok, which nerd crews, joker, Jonathan carbon, no
crews, and it was a mere out it there was seventeen hundred and eighty people both on a ship. This is the first year that, along they rented the whole ship. Previously they were just part of a ship and then maid huddle up like and it was cosy. I guess it was cozier for nerds there, like. Oh there's people just like cruises I gotta going. I wasn't gonna just like said how long seven is a king It down again I just hide and wait a minute. I show you this alright, they they gave us these buttons in the button said. Yes, I can do friendship right now or no. I can't do friendship right now. Friendship, friendship, like I fucking talk to me or you can talk to him. It's helpful for nerds. I guess as real helpful. I think for all of all humanity. Oh there you go. No, I do not want to do the friendship right now. No, what's the other ones say So you want didn't your grandchildren right now. Is this code for fear anything further, its code for nothing for both
keys. Now it's like, I knew I was not its yeah. Now it's like you're getting anxious to get new thing. It's acutely. It also seriously. I'm on the spectrum limit the fact the world we better, but maybe next year sneer. We have others bedroom leave me the fuck alone, where's that the best way I've heard so so Jonathan's a musical actor. You know he wrote that he wrote the people love him people he. He came I don't know enough. I like the guy met him. A few to a nice guy and he's essentially like if weird AL didn't write parodies more if they might be giants were silly because he The final say still alive in the video game portal,
Those are all words that is. As you know, I was his big break. That was his break. He wrote a song at the end of a video game. Reality though it was portal immortal is huge, was so that's what you gotta get where you can that's an who are the other comics on that it was a partner apart and ensure latvia, cameron and Maria cameron, esposito, unreal butcher and then janet barney anybody empty. people all awhile, lublin and a lot of entertainment options, lot, entertainment options and then the double click where music acts there. Their sisters out of portland essentially like if garfunkel and oates were noirtier, oh wow, so if you think of like Aisha tyler, who looks like a supermodel but is constantly playing massive multiplayer, I am so I yeah yeah yeah. I guess that's true. You know that that there can be a hidden, nerd complex. Does she just look like a supermodel, or was she a supermodel? I don't know what her story is. I've never done a long interview with her. We should probably. I should probably do that at some point: yeah she's awesome,
You know it's like gets away from me in a week, diana out to other people. It doesn't happen and then some people like, oh shit, I should just you know what I mean I talked to them. Yet you know life just keeps going right well on and on india. The door forest is nothing like that, but it's like rio and I just cause. It's still weekly still weekly I recorded six on the nerd cruises you can well imagine why not. I could have recorded seventeen hundred and eighty get some in the can get some in the can yeah. That's it and then I just have three months off Now is there a lot of food on the boat? That's what I remember about the one cruise I was on, so I bell rings in fine. It's tear that I I That was my greatest fear. It was booze. It wasn't
the ongoing should convey. It was the ongoing parfait night. I dealt with it. Ok, but not great, not great, it's very hard every day with the ice cream geisha now now not call for that same being onset like with it. What the fuck is that deserve exactly. Why is not here? That's not something you can you every day. Why that's? Why I'm gonna eat it every day, because its finite, it's gonna, be over any minute and outside this weird thing or it's like you, just can't leave that food out someone's gotta eat it. I am that. Do I gotta help out exactly what we want to go to waste india. So Are you on maria show, I'm doing a bit. Parts are like. I did on yours, yeah I've a bit per next week and recording really yeah. We on our seas and yeah. They cut me though it was, I did. The episode will you go along They cut Andy, they got Andy as well, but you know why because I don't know if you ve seen it. I'm only seen the first three episodes myself really do. You know why I was I'm in the fourth episode right and I added
funny, because you know it is this. Lady dynamite rise more issue and its arrested development south park and maria branfords act all shoved into a blunder right. So it's filthy, weird and genius We are all in a gourd and so there so many layers to it that I was not surprised they cut. Essentially or she and I discussing dick jokes yak. It was like there was bigeye. You know I love her and I want to watch the show- and I had to fred in here- melamed, okay and he's great he's great and yet why talk Angela, but I but like issues I dont know where people find the time. I don't know what I'm doing with my time right. Why were you when you are seeing their you know like I've, just got to sit down and lock in it's gotta catch me he's got a grab memory aiding some bullshit, I'm re reading some bullshit! That's why I'm staff and the voice in my head than what everybody reedy raynham re reading of laws, mcmasters usual space opera, the vault coasts, again saga
really get all those are average. I don't know what that last words at science fiction and it's this woman, otto minneapolis, who wrote these great at this great space upward, she's great, it's My favorite lines is lead character. Cordelia ever from a beta beta colony technology. who colony here like super tech right, fellow, that debt, the getting together from a super page? our goal: military milt, military colony colony. Contrary are they get married that guy was the regent advocates, becomes space, opera and political drama sure because he becomes agent to the to the young king Riah and at one point there at a party and she's from this goober liberal tech. colony in one of his political enemies, korea utterances, we know aerials bisexual and she goes sure, but he's monogamous right now india and the guys like like
trying to blow up their marriage by by alerting early bright, bisexual and rightly so- yeah yeah, I know you used to be with a fella nea and I know that she had known it, but that failed, it failed. So might I mean I don't love you if it were a surprise like if you were with somebody and you found out after who would marry them or been with them for years that they had a relationship with the same sex wooded freak you out. No, it's happened right you just got lines like way. Why ok that's exactly how I responded. I data this one guy who told me that he used to date guys in germany, that is why, even if a free free, We really was german out of four sweaters. He said I: I get a real nice jumper out, but not like is that prostitution that added another element to was a guy's blown guys for sweaters in really it felt like a whole other level too, and I ve never relationship, but it is just about that's why you're here
at geyser annually. It did make it uncomfortable. I was like well, we will not be dating more than this. Then I mean that was the only time with sweaters how about that, one that seems a nice kashmir. So I like that, the idea that the one thing that's interesting it seems to me about that science fiction story is that the human thing, hasn't shifted like that. You I like stories that honour that again, when you start to realize like humans, for there are now have been around for our long. They ve been around and haven't changed much no, and these are not right reign. The committee meeting is still the worst in everybody's head that another. grounded cipher story. It's pretty great wealth, good luck with your record yeah. I am not the hero of this story, Jackie occasions, new cd and download and you ve got the the You do a kill, martin, yet laura show when you ve got the dark forest yap which
If you get time gunnar and under what some that isn't, blue jeans, ok and, and then ok out, may be cats how come back on yet I had and in So episode, four of the first season of lady dynamite, yeah locally and an unc where they cut all my lines, but I'm pictured and are you touring like it papers were around. What's our website jackets how come you not a family pet ancestry dec on because it points to that because it made me laugh, don't you know get him over the mayflower it don't you want? You die. They already know where my nuclear arms and he's got a gun. Egyptian head see. You're, like apperson in something like ease or exotic. I, like a genius care. It's funny. I guess people do that with kids too, like this one special look at it's ears, so I do that joke about dogs of the american revolution have in your dog during the day or some guy emailed me to the joke. On conan guy emails me he's, like my cat,
is actually a direct descendant of truman's cat. That's funny, and I was like it are you kidding I hope, there's haven't. We their hopes, he's getting in theirs. Have methods like how to you do that. How did you teresa? Well, I mean, depending where he lives in what you mean. I think like because if you go down to key west there's all those hemingway cats are six fingered Hemingway cats all right, then you could actually get a hemingway cat. If you wanted, when you have the theirs they're, just all over the place, and there are, they are from the original six fingered cat and identify the great yeah that is a mutant cat. So it's great seeing I love tarkanian thanks for having me and Jackie cage not the hero. This stories out now listen to me podcast dork forest. Jackie lorry show so having your mind. Blown by a book is one of the great except It says of being human. So do that
casually. It does sometimes it's hard to find the books that are going to blow fucking mind by dumb, but they're out there right, this poor baby book the sell out was was astounding. excited to her to get an opportunity. talk to him? What I'm saying is the sell out by Paul baby is of hilarious book. I can you can't really put it down and its deep in layered and funny and dark and light, and just brilliant. It won the prestigious man. Booker price from fiction last year and now they'll will paper back and this me talking to the author of that book. oh baby I saw your embossed in any
to be if I did but we're about the same time, you would have been a year ahead of me, absolute in the english department. No outs like you're in a psych, depart Why and you knew we had common friends? Maybe we knew sue silverman, sir, sister sue dated guy. I knew briefly who was a guy named Steve brill. He's a film director- and I now I remember, meeting laura silverman with sue in a ski jacket pattern of what was to study so as to incite she was it Now what compelled you do, psych out of our friends. Tell me I always said I was. I want to be a psychologist. The hour were compelled me. I have no idea, but it was the right call at the right time. Oh yeah, right at the start. The you're in there, useful for absolutely mere yeah. Yeah, really really help shape. How I see things I see people in a high sea myself,
is it. It really made me aware that there's so much going on at any given time and part of it is you know what you're paying attention to and right listening to and how your listening. You know, how would you know just its justice, what's happening. How is your brain getting fucked in? How are you reacting to it? Yeah you know, and what are you bringing to the table? That's exactly it I aware that everybody is putting their baggage on the table right size, it alone its main others. There's this there's just so much happening. I know a in things happen in a moment that could have implications that the the in repercussions that go on for a lifetime. You know I teach yeah and you know when I was in school. I did something called small group processes. You know you just put roman kind of very counter culture. vs at that time. The abbe drink wine and yo to stir anyway. But you know we have
these phrases. I had a beautiful professor there, the skype bob chin, I've learned a ton from what he teach air he taught psych and social psych. He had these phrases the here and now the anti yourself, listen vienna, all these things. That is to help you where you are all right all right. You know my friend yeah anyways. It just innovate stuff that I try to instil in my students, because it tell me now seeing the larynx in adapting the complicated sit in a simple and easy to writing yeah, whereas at columbia so. When you be you you, you graduate with a psychology degree by the and where'd you go grad school. At b? U you did, I did for psychology. Did you want the fall of man? It was a. It was a mistake in some ways you know, but you know I apply to go to the letter this michigan allow this place. I think I was gonna end up universes chicago. What was the plan? really have a plan. You know was the one thing you know kind of captain.
Did me at some level. You I had some interesting in the plan. Was, I guess at the time I would have done that, and you know you get these organ additional behavioral jobs at kodak or something I dunno where these companies were really workshops and a sort of things you are going to it? There was a career. There have a consulting career. That's exactly that's the word not not a have to do office hours, korean yeah, maybe yeah. No, I didn't. I wasn't thinking about teaching where'd. You grow up around here, not around here so much, but you know westerly. I guess like like how far west you know. I grew up in santa Monica and venice and then we move to like write off robertson, boulevard and beverly wood and what was that? What was their childhood? What was your man, and I didn't really never knew my father, no yo him in my mom got divorced when that was three I got through.
yeah and that- and that was it he was out yeah. He was out yeah. He was out so it's just you and your mom yeah yeah, oh yeah me and my mom. My two sisters got two sister same dad same fault, yet just put on everybody aden split, my mama se, she left him. I guess you know that I don't know exactly what happened in a negative worth there. He didn't go smoke cigarettes right right right in I just stay you. You grew up in that part of town. We did. We do the sisters older we're all more or less the same age, but their younger than me we're all like, nine months or years railing some bits and what were they get involved with my sister sharing? Is she place every now, and then she teaches for anna work for data BP carmen water power, so When you are coming up, you know when you were gonna high school and shit. What do you think compelled you to this
research of the human brain that it's it's a it's it's just for reading. You know we don't have a tv, no, no on purpose. I guess so I guess so. But we just never had a television. I very spare moments the abbot from most of the time growing up. We never had a tv drama, I just had a librarian just you know all of us just read the all of it. He I know, and it was in good taste. Thankfully see you there yeah like what were you getting? Oh, we got heller, we got below, we got updike. You know we got a ton of shit, really yeah my mom's an artist, and so we just just a whole broad of stuff like sorted likes. You is creative person interested in and that absolute is interested in everything. a painter. You see us smartest I mean my mom- is insanely smart. So it's what was guidance where he was, she obviously encouraging to creative life, yes
she never incurred, but she murmured discouraged. Whilst she never tell much. You know we have a tunnel rule Fiona right, curfew, anything since you to tell us much everything was there and he just kind of dragged us to places you know, and so art openings, yeah and just never sensitive. So you know we'd gone to all these movies. You know, since forever, did you do on them, I think you know we're we're not very. talkative, but amongst the we're very talkative thing. You know rallies have our little theories about shit. Syria see how we talk about. Because I know in the book to sell out that like areas the you know, the thing is just infused doesn't go outside. The story, the thing is infused with you know: a depth of of sort of cultural. Racism. Intellectual assessments of film theme
yo semantic that it's interesting because all through it all the characters seem at moments you credibly informed and sophisticated intellectually sore the idea of it. I think they don't make many distinguished. You're, very judgmental about their shit that they like an airship. It don't worry, I'm not like like high brother, like lowbrow. It's all few easy! That's what I mean that in future you have like sort of like you know like a dialogue within oversight that nowhere you know you ve got. fell, references yeah. It is this just language man- that's pretty accurate, it's just we're, but it's fine, Absolutely I absolutely so. When you didn't stop, This is what is your second or third now my fourth forth, but you start like the other place, I think we could have cross pass, but maybe not maybe on the street was. I was on the lower side from.
Like the eighty seven eighty eight, ninety two, ninety three, I was on second between a and b poker. If that's I mean that's where I live, I live on soccer now, between a between b and c, so I saw the the all the drug stuff I saw and yeah like years before, giuliani had taken over and there was a lot of yeah. There was a lot of drugs on the street. That was it that was three save the robots. Yes right around the corner. I ever wanted that she had better and I was trying to not do drugs, I saw a lot of behaviour beer. There was a doorway next to my house, I know where you live, that you lived yeah. I know exactly where you were like there was this weird to have that line outside exactly. I know exactly where yeah there was a line outside that doorway. Next to it was this weird garage full of cans. There was like this garage, I dunno what was going on there, but they were just moving recycled. There's a the garage is still there. It's like a beer
jupiter was frequently like that right now in, but there's a restaurant right there tutor is like an italian restaurant, that's been there for awhile yeah dude. When I was there, it was like insanity. Yeah, I mean yeah, you go to new york, so you know but so. I didn't live there. I didn't get down there to like ninety. Maybe I was living in these harlem and I didn't six months in brooklyn for while when I first got to be four brooklyn was brooklyn brooklyn I was deep in, but I was in mid would see her so but yeah you're at the new regan yeah yeah. I would read at the nea rican and read there I'd read at ST mark's poetry project, you know, but it was poetry, yeah it was and what was it that he he because, like at that time, it seemed to me that that swam poet everything that new york in that.
The guys who were you know in innately funny that there was a stand up element of it. I felt like I knew a guy who was a stand up that actually went into it, yeah because it seemed to give him more freedom and comedy near what was your well. Yeah. I was just reading. You know, I'm not very performative, really you're, just really desperate. You know I just read: I mean especially when the place first opened. You know there were a lot of disgruntled poets in one that felt shut out of like saint Martin until these poetry wars, but they are thou, thereby wars and anybody ever. And it was this an open place. It was nice in a clearly would be there. Just a ton of people would be verifiable greatly. Was he passed away? He did and so so for me with this new york had seen near it. And its own family airing can talk shit and rapid response. But I think really early on and a friend of mine
yeah. You know there have velvet ropes out here very soon could see that happening to the poetry. Ghana became in oh it's the thing I realized. I was just right. You know and nothing wrong with it, but, like your friend he's asleep and it was, it was so perform it have been. So all these other thing yeah and then mtv guy, like Maggie estep, there was doing it they're, adding music too at times, and I mean nothing wrong with that, but that was me you're you're, more of a purist, not a purist. I just read: you know I'm kind of shy. I looked down and I just read yo and and for me I think it's important for let the page, the words do all the work. We are right and let that do the same, in our the ever and so the other stuff I just undersea uncomfortable doing so, but so you're like in terms of bringing poetry out loud, yet the words to do it, but the pauses gotta. Do it yet I couldn't just blurted
like I was uncomfortable. You know why do it because it's I think was part of it Ya know laying a poet yeah, and so I remember when I first got to Me- work in trying to figure out how to ride. I saw poets magazine some amateur after you this little. They graduates in finnish, rascal so late midway through My third year- and I was like not stunning from I qualify and have yams and I was just like yeah. I really don't want to do this. You know- and I was talking my friend ruth side actually, if you knew ruth and it's possible that you got maybe anyways we'll just walking down. I think we're a beacon, and I just remember saying to her one day. You know what I think are right and they just click, and I was like yeah, you know, and it was good things I was and you haven't written not really, I really but lake. I think I have the slow thing about how much I enjoy, in writing.
But it was just star- was slow, and the thing was he not. I mean the good thing about boston. Had all those great use, bookstores me great use, record stores, you know, and I m I just read everything I wasn't supposed to be read you know and like what? Oh man just there was a book. I think it was on beaker so I would just dive in their man in ie I mention all this shit and all the other stuff and the beats play a part Not then so much had read Ginsburg in care wacky at it. You know, but in I'm aware of it nea stuff, but that's the came more into my sensibilities, I moved to new york. The end Allen was my teacher for while Alan's gilbert really and so where broken college Was that so I'd when I left be you I just went to brooklyn collagen got me.
the fat and no one else how you're were supposed to do it. Another time there might have been twenty twenty five places where you got your Emma free riding or some, so I was either going. Back to california, go to new york, men so and I've been in brooklyn college, and so I shall kind of never having written anything, except for these poems vacant squealed out, you know to send the application how'd you get in here idea. You know, who knows you know who knows and Allen was air towards the end of his life with no, it wasn't quite towards the end. I mean he was up there but arm. So this is you know, late eighties wow. That must be. guess you he's when these guys I sort of having an effect guys around when I was young and you know I had alan's books and, and I've got a lot of the little the one They re wrote in a big collection and he Was he like, as a teacher he was. He was was very gracious piano. yeah. He was very gracious. He was a key, opened its doors and really good stories.
Yeah, you certainly air there and what you learn from yet you know that the thing I really learn from Alan is: is precision You know he was so big on clarity and precision. Editing in wasted breath kind of stuff I mean I learned a lot in in in in not so much I'm him, but a thing that I started god at the at brooklyn. I could these basic fact media, which is like you're gonna, have to be fearless a little bit nino in terms of exposing yourself away, use your choice round me and was just not censure myself. not like a very taking a very personal right. I now talk about myself, hermit, you know when I write is very personal vienna, so not so much about me necessarily yeah, but yeah, you know just yeah I haven't I to teach their Tucker Farley, whose just she was nuts, but she really just pushed you know how we
and another guy lou ass, a coffee was close with our who really incurred, because when I was there ever the first year, the professor told me to start writing and I got like a sea luxembourg, marilla yeah, we sat down again really. This is for you and real air and phone. But I kennedy- had a guy who still very close with today, is professor Lou ass, a cough we aim to meet with you know once a week for an hour and then read my poems alongside, I told louis yeah. I guess I'm quitting kits. I suck you and was like it was for man he was, he told me doing something that no one else is don't you know you're onto something really here maybe so, how I can't tell you how hopefully was to me- and he told me that really slow me down, which was we're gonna learn how to read you because I've been struggling with this. You know what am I swear
what language do know, how to make all these things that you talk about before you, this fusion of language, we're in a who needs understand what knowledge customarily struggle with that and. And so Lou told me people going to learn to read you the I don't listen to her just come back and keep it going, and it's funny the internet year had written a poem. Fine upon that I was like I kind of like this year. You know, and the king class- and I remember reading that poem and that kid was like this- I don't understand this- I don't get it blah blah blah. This doesn't make any sense. None of this is this is the worst poem. I've ever read I hope that next year we had Alan Ginsburg answer, Ginsburg, where the same class two different teacher right in it comes in. He goes, let's start from the top, bringing your best poem or rent a start from there separate. That poem is my best point yeah and I read that same poem. In that same kid was like, Paul's a genius? This is an illusion of this. This is a reference. You know this whole thing and I had been really struggling about what
can't. You know all this kind of stuff. this like. I me he didn't, have to say anything, looking pretty much get in the way that he got environment? asking him after class. I said: do what happy man you hated that palm and he just was like. Ah you know, I spent three months in new york. You know over the summer they just said opened his head opened. His ears opened his eyes right, yeah. But for me it wasn't like air whatever I do is good, but it was suspect, just you know so much happening in all. This is shifting right. You know, and it's like I'm paying. You know you learn in psych, about like everyone's in different place at a different time. You know there's just so much movement right, your political awareness in terms of every there, just in different places, you can always get your mind blown there and you can always blow back. You know it's just. I think people think of this consciousness as this point russian somehow you know and also gee. I think, as a form is something that it does grow with you. You know that
you can read a palm and be completely outside of it here and then years later come back to it and- a completely different experimental. That's like any financing, a good joke. That's, like any fear, you know say alone, could painting in us right You know yet what jokes are a little more descriptive? Why you know I mean you may not think something funny about like right I get. What you're saying about a turn of phrase or a joke, but like sometimes poems have a code. Doom jokes are not that coded deal so. What do you mean by code? I guess why mean that e o joke you in and of itself like a story or gesture unless it some sort of the pacific tale? That has a cryptic end? You know you, you should at least know their structure of liking. Oh that's! What funny is and if I get the funny. It's usually means because you don't know something. Yet if it does the same thing, I guess it I'll say: ok, it's! Like area, and if that baggage pianola, we have you going to do so. So what I would think of that poem, I think
I mean, I think Alan numb he saw something in me. I hope- and I think I in can romanticize all the stuff, but he did a nice thing with. If he did this, he did this speaking series yeah. He brought in all these black male poets yeah. I think I was kind of the only black kid in poetry, yeah, I'm pretty sure Yeah but anyway brought in these guys, quincy trooper, mary barometer, he has had a cat Kofoed, a tumble and those it was fun to listen to my got in agree with hardly anything. They said, but was really interesting to hear them talk about their processes and how they thought just where they there there fit. World, like what you mean the and agree. So I remember one guy, you know and you know Alan brings all this environmental stuck to the table. You brought so much stuff to the table. For him talking the quincy about just they world the physical environs,
and I remember quincy going yeah- that's your problem. It just was like whoa, that's so weird. I didn't know that. There's a lot of stuff you know, and but it was, it was really refreshing for me. You know, and that are just this open my head up a little bit, but was at the first time you re, came in contact with black poets yeah. I guess yeah and united note too many people that road outside of school me like a mirror. invite me to his things that they weren't for me, but why it just they weren't, I'm not a I'm, not a group person. So I'm not a I'm. Not a in audio log like that. Not like a writing is fine. Necessarily airily might be, but I don't think of it that way. You know how it about this stuff, you know, but I respect the intellect me. I've learned so much.
from memory over these a really good writer and yeah. Those guys were open you to quincy, really helped me it's funny. I think about that cause. I guess that's where I met quincy quincy gave me all these fucking great readings. Back in the day that you know I didn't know, you could make five thousand dollars for reading some poems, it's late at night fyi, I didn't know you could do that. Quincy was really helpful in that. In the end, that kind of stuff- and just you know, I see? I will yours air sheriff and it's very specific and it's a creature. endeavour poetry, I mean the other good guys, but I mean it's like it's not a huge world, no, absolutely not, which was good for me at the time I mean yeah, and when did you read like because at the end of the book a you know, you you, I mean, like I'm not Well, versed in much of anything, it's all sort of random. But you know do you glad your way to talk about william cross juniors
day I had a negro two black conversion experience in black world twenty july. Nineteen. Seventy read them grad school manner, Well, what would when you're in grad school, when you're an undergrad yoni, about baggage. You talk about your personal back get your or growing into it. How sure you involved. in educate yourself about race! That's a good question! I mean, I think, different different places at different times. In also. I kind of tender hang out with who's ever closer proximity doesn't matter who they are they're nearby, I'm kind of lazy, so yeah, you know. If you're in that sphere, then we're going to hang out you know or ever attempt to at least so you don't have a crew of kids. You know this kind of So my floor piano and when you were a kid, I know a b: u how yeah you know and same when I was a kid. You hung out with the kids on the block, so yeah for the most
I had other friends, I'm just a moment stuff, but you know so there the race thing is always there. It's. You know it's everything's, always everywhere, so that was always there, but for the most part of undergrad, most of my friends were white. I guess except cats that I play basketball with. I still referee games and stuff like intramural games a lot of people. yeah and then you know I don't remember all this, but like in all its investiture movement out of south africa and stuff and nerve human with threats with silver near there. He better right areas. Rotarian was apart all these movements as right and in our eyes, yeah yeah, fine, united, asleep on the periphery of that kind of stuff, leading us our task, yet there and then them nationally, you know they had another professor imbue the smith who is as she's one of the few black professors but who is you know really doing
boosting research, stuff around race and all this it was kind of cool. For me to just think about this stuff yeah. It is you know the thing I was lacking at the time. I just peoples through people would say: oh racism, racism, racist race and adjust was like what is mean enough a what are we talking about here? I was like trying to like come up with a scale like this kind of richter scale of racism. He knew as a seven point. Five at you know cause I was trying to Could we use that word mean so much in its. I don't know how you measure these things. He s not like you know. I don't know that's about I can do is come up with this richter scale. Array, sicilian in the sense of measuring mean liking a what is essentially hatred. in what is essentially ignorance. Essentially impolite why you're not like that like interest in terms of impact on you, the air. So I remember, I still work a trader jove. and I always remember, working at trade agenda where national wesley
right near the house, so I only early trader entry to chose. I think it's true jos number seven. This is when there were no dry, and I remember the rider mere yeah see I worked there. yeah and I remember and are now doing that, icebox whatever remember a black woman common in the store, The white kid I was working with going hey. Do you think she's pretty slim with you that's there was just so weird for me, yeah, like why's. He asked me that in an area that race, you know, I don't know what it was necessarily you know, but it's like the these little things? You know I'm just and how did you judge and how did I judge that from him? He was one of the kids who I actually didn't know very well. So I'm like in a van I dunno, I must have been eighteen Eighteen, oh Diana hobbled. I was- and I was like you know-
come in there all the time. You never go, hey issue this year. You know you just tell me, you think, sees that rather taking a what is that a ballot wouldn't need outlets, which here and I'm not saying it's industry, a bad thing- misery for any psychology, I guess so or very early on in that- and that's all I mean all these just a ton of little things. That's a little sometimes here, but just trying to figure out like where where's this def. I mean if these things all these words that I never know what they mean. I never know what is when satire all these kind of things yo. I just I don't know what these words me. You know I know what they mean in the contacts here, but they're so fuzzy for me this kind of five year, absolute alike, when people use these words like. If serving are they are you using them as shields? Are there you know it's a star? Where does pride come into that so prides like one of the thing I mean, I lived in germany for awhile, really where in berlin. What
Is that build that was like ninety six, ninety seven huh yeah? What brought you there didn't have any money. So I went to Berlin had a beautiful. It was fine. How long about a year africa, maybe a little bit less know how that must have been interesting yeah it was. I didn't, go out cyber age yeah I was I was. I was going through a lot of stuff. and just just had a hard time there being stared at being dragged around will agree, depressed am always the press, so, in fact that that goes without saying really there too there so yeah. I was just my first, I will come out like there was a bunch of stuff going on, and I just then Any friends I had met like in a really organic way, really, You know I just listen to them. Talk arrogant, so goddamn smart there I remember people saying They weren't allowed to say I'm proud to be german. Wow, that's wild.
you know it's like almost illegal to say that really yeah because, like what does that mean you know- and it just made me think about this black pride this kind of shit that I just I don't know what that means like is that A constant are allowed to be prior, proud for just five seconds than the other set reunify. Second, I don't give a fuck and what are the thing that you feel are black barest Mansour german, embarrassing, I kind of like, what's the equation like worthless, had as its pride needle work, you know like it Is it right? I understand what you are saying and I think that, when it's used in in the broad sense that it is, about a kind of strengthen being or diminishing and identity year or even understand, like the knee to self affirm like yeah, sometimes, but you know that also come. The cost, and it also comes with this kind of article kind of sense in a heavy so I'm african american and I have black pry whatever. That is what is that,
I do for you as a white person. Are, you is a california pride in. I try all these prize work together, because you interest not just one thing or just so much should happen. Sure in oh sure, into it. It brought idea ended at this is not to make any sense, but I remember being our come at once and with a bunch of black is and there was something happening. These two kids got into a fight then, and there was this kid and he was like I'm so embarrassed as a black person. Then- and I just remember looking at him going, Why are you embarrassed? This has nothing to do with you, but this weird, a collective thing yeah that just I never. I dunno how to process it right also, but what was the fight? Was it within the group you were with, or you were just two people, you know doing something and felt embarrassed as a black guy, because two other black people were doing something that he was embarrassed, but I didn't understand that that were all represented yeah. I just I didn't understand that yeah and so yeah
This documentary about, like the oil movement in in in the uk, and this and had guys talk, and indeed they are like what appeal to you about the movement he goes out. You know I bear cement about being working class and that music that scene and he wanted to say pride, then he stopped himself because he went no. It's not about pride, wasn't embarrassed about it anymore, and I was like yeah, that's exactly it at year, was like that's exactly inspire me. There's a distinction their somehow. You know what was the OIE move? That's a skin and music in a punk movie. I asked you know this kind of thing which has off, in an area by actual listed offshoots that just as some kind of music has some alternatives. A ton of offshoots uninteresting not be embarrassed, is not being embarrassed shameless year. Absolutely you know I keep silent about like how you would be embarrassed about telling people where he was from in all this kind of thing that somebody just kind of didn't give a fuck
know, but it wasn't about necessary having pride in right being from the place but grabbing embarrassment, an interesting disdain for most interesting night that that you going that information that will deliver the goods in terms of of how to wrap your brain around some element of pride, was you deliver by something that is really if it is a national wisting yields, some white supremacist movement. Here I mean what league in germany I and my friends who would say these things, but there was drifting ways- men, sometimes it becomes uncomfortable whatever is about they did show their national pride may be, no might not be flag waving then, but there were things hey, don't I'm not allowed to say this, but excellency you know- and I m really. Really in and then you know they were still lacking, the wall had just really. down, and so there was this interesting thing about what german pride was. I had some east german friends with there,
I'm going to use the word pride in being east german, but you this how these identities shift in and how quickly idea gets created in a year and just thumb and just at the time I wrote it a bunch of stuff about it, but like at the time. It reminded me a lot about what I had read about. You know the reconstruction era here in the states, yet you know in africa openness and german. This afternoon there was this a lot of similarity from a really really there. in terms of of the identification of genocide, yeah, yeah and and and having no real way out of not being identified with that. and the reconstruction in the in the the black he being identified with this indentured servitude and you're in and moving out from that era, edit a sense of trying to reconstruct a new kind of national identity, yeah, right and yeah,
and with some things that initially were good and then, when the you know, the south had these things that they want to do and have we need to bring back segregation. We need to draw these lines back. You know how identity gets get shaped, and since it was just interesting from interest for me the heaviness of just that weight than that I'm german. I am black and consulates hopeful, much haft yards and just there was a lot of similarity there. I mean I'd joke about it, but you know there is a lot of similarity from any you, don't have any control over what you're born into and yet how you sort of move through your life and in an realized away that stuff, that's your own, yeah yeah sure I mean you know you get to figure out how you want to cope. And we're tumble my mom earlier known. I saw my sister's yesterday and so appreciative that our mom never told us. You like I never had any conversations with her about being black or any this money.
Just kind of left at us lifted up to us to figure out how we want to cope. How Wendell, learn, you know the social moors and stuff and we're how we want to China. We just left it up to us, and so Families whole family, weird about this stuff. We don't really think about these in a way that a lot of people do is at a plus. Yeah? I think it is a pleasure for us. You know cause we neither of us that the word my son, use the other day was boundaries. We don't have a ton of boundaries about shit. We think we don't while- and I think that's definitely plus yeah. So it seems like you know when I you know when I got to sell out. sized our reading this book- and you know the eu just opens with each- is just like your right in it there's a dude, I have to a chair right, yeah, waiting to be noticed, sit standby before the supreme court, yeah and there's weed involved and there's are a lot of things going on now. You know moving in from we're talking about
and in terms of how you're talking about identifying the meaning of these things a day, it seems This book is sort of a reckoning with it yeah. I guess so. What is reckoning me. I mean that you know it's. It is about race, yeah. I guess I mean yeah I mean he is who he is, who I am so it just seems that it's all it always is about. Windsor is always right, so yeah I mean, but these are things that are important to him. These are things that are factors that have shaped how he life yeah bonbon. whatever his name is you know, and so yeah
coordinate is his main character doesn't have a whole. I think in my head, there's a name. You know his last name. Is me yeah, so he obviously like I was working for him. I am about to talk to him, but I can't remember the character's name. So it's not my fault. The mobile we get. We get Foy Cheshire, we get the old man, we get a lot of people's name around him, but he doesn't ave. He you know he's got a nickname and he's got his surname. It doesn't really have like a christian there, but when you're like when you're writing, poetry- and you say things like you know- you- you you're crafting these words- the words are important and that you know early on you're writing things that were not. sense to people, and you got to support early on from one guy said that cause you're you're doing something people are going to have to go to your committing. To these worth. Absolutely and you're thinking about absolutely so. You know these in these. There is definitely poetry in this book, obviously, but there there are also big ideas that are driving the narrative yeah yeah, specifically you have this Odd, your black,
who wants to segregate the school, reinstate the waiver aid in his neighborhood sort, a headline daily. Do it in writing this a thing it's in the power of these words. He never segregate anything going already. Four consecutive writes that out of the fun of it. For me here is how to segregate something that's already segregated right. We don't have any white people anywhere near the place they are for the most part right. How do you do that? How do you build in that? No the consciousness of segregation, and I was really fun for me here. How do you have a slave? That's not a slave! You I mean, how do you have a masochistic slave where she enjoys being be interlinked? All these kind of things there are fun for me to this too. I recognise that the word that I would use clear feels like that. There's a fatality that, for me it's just a rendering reckoning you aren't. You were looking to make a point:
no, not at all nah nah, not at all, not at all. I just say: what's the point to be made, you know it's like yeah yeah, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or anything, make you think a little bit and make you feel make you tingle make you laugh. I dunno laugh whatever. How long did it take you to write? This book took like five years to write that book now took a long long time. What's your process, I just had these ideas you know, so I have an idea for the harmony character, because I like They love the little round. The also idea for love a little rascals was thought of like who was next in line. You know how it went like farina stymie, I dunno did you act a little circles or alfalfa, but you know like for the black guys. It was farina, then stymie they kind of bring him in slowly and then they bring buckwheat in slowly well, who was buckwheats under study by whose that next person, who has the racial white, guys change, guess miss, chance. It started here. You know like who one next black canada exactly so I just I just love the phrase buck with understanding so
that that's all you had not had occurred things I had that. I the sense of that neighbourhood. We know this place, that's california: dickens dickens, inlets agrarian. At the same time it ever the inner city supposed to be it in all these kind of things, but was once a farming community. Yes order right now, and so I had that it's kind of notion about segregation, but I didn't really know what it was, but I knew I wanted to kind of figure out this. This idea of what segregationist and for yourself not for myself to render it like in this contemporary kind of way. You talk about some that exists, that we don't really acknowledge. Very much rhino in I was talk in the four my mexican american guy, who runs a magazine called xyz of an oscar yeah, and I was talking to one of my students- was intern in black kid named Chris and chris is talking here, drink and chris was look at me and oscars about my age, no late, forty or failure and
christians are you guys must ahead it so hard and mean asked What are you talking about he's like all the racism you guys must have any of us. Just started laughing and we both like almost in unison, said to him. Oh, no, you had it, you have it way worse than we have it. You know cause there's just a what is he? christmas. Is the african american get from you know from northern california? Smart kid you know and It was interesting to hear oscar me in Austria say this thing at the same time. You know just give this improvise refund. You guys have it worse than we had it cause damage. They feel limitation of always say the right thing in being able to acknowledge anything because it means that something. younger people- yeah yeah there and for us that was like yeah, no, we can just spout and complain and bitch and moan, and you guys aren't allowed to bitch and moan really cause. Then something's wrong with you or bitch and moan, because everything's in place for you to you know be whoever you want to be so anyways. it was interesting
It's made me shape about just this. This idea of post racial all is fucking crap, you know, but I never again. These are words that I dunno what the fuck they mean. You know clearly they then they seemed to mean less than they might have thought to have meant initially yeah. But with a lot of stuff, you know, and so so you think Things are relatively Unchanging, I think no, I think that things do chain. But I think you know we, as people remain the fuckin same always have remained the same in reading this, this, the Debbie p slave narrowed, you know where they went around to these living slaves and keep artists employing the interview, did, is looming slave. What was it like dominant? Tell me about your life and I remember reading some of those things and list to these depends. You can tell who the interviewer was by the how they were talking. What were they use them? He added enemies but
I remember, being blown away. How that a lot of the slaves was in these niggers these this, and I say, oh, my god, I thought black people started seeing as in the seventeen. I mean money, I just realized how old all this shit a seer, you know and yet jobs in its weird way? I think about allay beer in all these words that just don't die grad. Normally, you know all these words and from its like more the timeliness and about like how do we measure progress? I'm not saying there is no progress like how do we measure it? You know like ok obama progress? Yes, no, how you know is the civil rights act, progress. You know all this kind of stuff. For me it just it's fun to play with and then when something happens like what's happening now in our culture, how does that zack your brain. What so? What's now? I wonder: what's this, what that we only have the shift from obama to of reaction like tromp near me. These shifts happen. You know, I mean there's a reason that we in this the shift from obama trump and not
you know a bomb in nepal, reiner obama in you know: there's a reason why they pick this guy. What does reasons are exactly really know? Yeah my ideas and. and then these things happen again. Pack to germany, like this thing of. people feeling censored, even though the fuckin censored, but they feel censored somebody's telling them that their censored and if we were talking, you're about, like you know the. When do you the the lattice work for it military and state me. I know and life but you know we're so used, but these things break down your hitler was fucking elected elected that fucker twice yeah, I mean yeah, and it's about this breakdown of like how these things breakdown and that's the stuff that really gets gary for me. You know cause you, you adapt so easily the two losing things here: people in
your rights, Europe, near accessibility, I mean you adapt. What do you think that's from Out of this from a lot of stuff, I think a lot of it is you know it's hard to acknowledge things that. If you want to change it actually, gonna have to change your behavior. You actually gonna have to shift your life we can make some real sacrifices. You know, and as such for people to notice this stuff, you know there's this year out, you have a kind of arm. You have a kind of kinetic energy in your life that you're just you know you don't want to disrupt that flow, while india in hard to admit that these people fucking hate me you know and specially people that you ve been around for so long and this person, who was your neighbor, oleson your this person's worst enemy. I remember when, when talking about and about oj being acquitted we're in talk to somebody, a woman who is a lawyer
was so angry. You know you notice in a miscarriage of justice. And she went back at us. We think my stance on affirmative action on all this kind of shit. Now it what does that fuckin have to do with oji get mouth yeah, but it's this way of associating african americans, this country, whose country is in a way that good people bad. Also the Earl I wife till the story about her step, grandfather group in hamburg. You know The early thirties- and they had this teacher in this beautiful guy who all the students liked and they would ask them. Oh, so what about hitler and he'd be like? Oh, don't worry about that! There's nothing to worry about! You know they can't do it the stuff. None of it makes sense. You know, but then one he came in and he went class there's a fresh wind blowing in alike. At some point the rhetoric got to him. There was something in I hear that you know, and you know my wife's grandfathers, jewish and he has to rethink about fuck, isn't even see me
You know you just right things happen he. I know these these. These things happen and the like, being you press a button and then everybody's a fuckin fascist here. But you know these things, click and some of its fear. I mean it cooked for a ton of reason. It's like I just want to be on the winning side you to write another cause for a tunnel reasons, and for me, like that, interesting thing about like who's. The sell out, like you know, what's a sell out right in oh and that that notion, is in any kind of thing. my gave me a book is called a directory uncle tom that can be beautiful, but really well researched. One was about how guy that must that book must be from the mid nineties. I think maybe a little bit later wrote it. I dont Can I think anybody's names on a real? yeah such a good book. So you know
anybody ergo any by any black person, has ever done anything in life there in that book, because at some level this is where this person is so I just described sensibility like whose whose eye it was sense of what blacknesses are we talking? yeah. I guess I love that book. It's really fun. It's really well researched too. It's really good work, but it's like you know, but for me it's like these things aren't like this tide in being black rights, so that we were tom the kid the guy doesn't have a name, and so I had la line that I like to my head was like all the supreme court in a rover. His way, you know me I'm gone so the united states of america, whenever these cases are- and I had a funny thing about o me versus the united states of america. That's kind of funny so now have to but with a way of well. How do I justify this non existent surname? He knows I go yet they were the knees and then I he's all these things, but these examples for me, which are really interesting about mostly jewish guys change their names in doing all this kind of stuff.
In all these comedians all these people, who I really admire, but like this, that that process is so familiar a ton of people right changing your maintains your name to be. or appealingly more appeal idea? Is that a sell out is that you know like what is what are we talking about here and so I dunno there's one of my favorite parts in the book. Actually you know the the, but it's like whose are his exemplary for these behaviors aren't always necessary black. You know, from from all over the place in. What are your biggest comedic influences? What was the that's a good question, but I mean you, I you know what the anthology I don't. I don't have any when you put together an anthology of humor. In a way, it seemed like a very at least diverse within the forms. yeah, I think Malcolm x is hilarious, so I put in all this kind of stuff. You know four come on purpose yet absolutely on airbus. Scientists think he's fucking funny, in addition to being a ton of other things you they had also funny-
so there's a tire. My comedic influences my family's pretty funny richer prior of core. you know the area sitting around. Listen all those arms, frank, a jai, Oh yeah! All right! You don't look when you sat down a listens to yeah, of course, all areas stuff. You know, look as people like. I see, unlike some of the press on the book that day they they make why keep comparing it to stand up and as a stand up. I it's this Far beyond the cup. The capability of stand. I don't know if I agree with you there to be honest. you know I I can't believe that's a nice thing to say I think no, no. I mean that you have you know because of your. You know all stand. Ups use words and, and some standards have great bets and some of those bits you know, trance and time and are with us forever sure. But in terms of of nuance Can you keep pushing them to say you were it's a lot of writing the yet yet yet another part is different. You not doing bethia that, but I think you are doing some beer
but I mean you have, I think, of wake comedy, that's move me has stayed with me. I thought about the volume. Of course you no no know now that the punch near absolute, whether some of those so this is a You know, like you, know, this concept of black face black races, bad blah blah. You know you don't do it don't do this fear some black face in the book yeah viewers in resuming their son a ton of legacies. There's this hollywood legacy this whole thing so so ass to be there, so you know, and I remember you must this may be dumb but Do you remember this old sergeant lives, skit, where Billy crystal places, negro league baseball player and he's in the black is the fuckin black face some smelt night? He attainable it's so fucking funny here and if one those things where I guess Is it racist? Is it not? I don't fucking know, but it is funny- and I remember talking to my friend darrow about this a lot and I'm like
how did he get away with this? And you know somebody else, does it in you know they don't get away with it and my friend derec us. You know I from however, it is, is he cared about a key. There was a genuine somethin near there and he was vested in a real person away. Income may be argued that with you know I'll just said: may I could argument, but it's different. It's the indifferent right and whether you know two different time periods in this whole thing I think everyone always has these rules it's. This is bad. This is not bad. This is when you can laugh when you can't laugh all this kind of shit and at the wrong time all the time for that that sort of the beauty a comedy, I mean it I know he is at the wrong time in a way you know why is somebody laughing yeah yeah? Those are personal questions, sometimes yeah, absolutely absolutely and it's- and I think like in terms of like whatever billy crystal was doing and whatever Al Jolson was doing, was that there was a tradition that add become new
inappropriate at some point, but I dont think that if you were to ask billy about that guy, he would say was a black face character. Do you mind if I don't know what the hell you wasn't? I don't know that he was doing minstrelsy, per se, but you know I'm point you know put any of that black on your face, then you are identifying with the leg is spent, is a thing of late. How these words are tied like so many members? pale and being on sound, I live near, has like this. Just she's a cool It's the same thing: bang bang to laugh at yourself when you really don't want to laugh right, yeah that's your way of ingratiating yourself with your potential electorate or whenever she's do it. You know I just these weird ways you know, and so for me I see these behaviors all the time in different capacities. You know not it's always tied to raise in as you, there's different traditions are different legacies. You know, but the behave here is a crosses all that kind of stuff. You any
the book all over them and also on the idea. Was that thing is you know yet all these different threads of thought and and identity and an entertainment? You know that that, u turn in on themselves by these, where behaviors of these you know these like white, girls and starting up putting on black there being part this audience, I it's there's so much in the book. I can't remember vincent listen. Neither can I, for I mean like it's. It's pretty fascinating, that the fear of pace and imagery that you gettin these things I mean do when you say took five years to do it like. I can't even go through all the different tiers of I mean crisis enough about farming fruit in their day, you write a whole other piece. I like you on point you nerd it out about. Farm vinos grown up from you know. It starts from his little stupid. Things have grown up in California. We have an elementary and back yeah yeah yeah
grew out of their absolutely absolute. Will you as I always what were always brought her mind was an ear and talking about something interesting. That's spike did with that with the movie bamboozle that I can't ever get out of my head was to bring. Can emperor airy sort of focus production, values too. your menstrual shit, yeah and to put it on in there you're with that spectacle. The air was sort of fucking mind you. I love the idea that movie cat I'm using that so critical and public of here, but I love idea that movie, but the problem was, is that the minstrel show wasn't fucking funny. So for me It just debased the whole thing of this thing, blowing up cause. I was like I love idea, but the thing is: how do you really give that show some punch right, like some contemporary punch? That would really make it work in that context, radically by the movie, because still see stuff wasn't funny right. was just kind of
it was the it was actually it seemed like it was actually from the era. Yeah yeah absolutely absolutely, and that was probably the point he was trying to make embryo is probably a discussion, but I know what you're saying it would have been more powerful a movie if he had content it made it more contemporary yeah. Maybe you know I mean you do that with these missing episodes of the of the yeah yeah. Don't talk you're going to be a troll, but it's like no, no, no, no, I'm teasing but yeah. That was the stuff of like. How do you take this, like you know, really patently races show and make it even fuckin, more regret uses. You know, and then, like so people come up to me like. Are these real episodes? You know? There's this whole. You know so much fun like really trying to amp that stuff up, isn't that that in itself is sort of a scary proposition that people don't have facility to understand
and something as broad as that. Yeah the area- and there like was that was that, based on truth, yeah really yeah. No, but that you know sometimes it depends again like who asked those questions yeah like where are they coming from you know. I had a friend of mine who thought Al Jolson was black. This is a very smart guy and he has like woe, but it's like you know it. Would you look You know where you know and so contextual all the time. You know that I think that's a big thing about how contextual allah should everywhere, got those whereby inside their surprising and it's so little rascals, his boston yeah. My friends Kevin would like go to beacon speaking, do these revival. Things began theatre. No, it was an ever wondered: amby, oh, it would have been a brook line or in which corner coolidge, corner corner coach, coronary artery tat. These things- and I remember goin You'D- be in these all why things in fuckin boston, no less!
they'd watched these the old little rascals episodes, unity, which they ask us three stooges, but uncensored versions that we never saw her. I yeah yeah stymie like, over a hot pot, sweat and in and wiping his brow, india fleeing a black spot on a white wall. You know into all this stuff in the crowd having in all this kind of shit, just that really has stayed with me, obviously, for a long long time cause your time, but how do we figure this out that, whereas, in a word, why they laugh at? Nor are they laugh in? Why am I laughing? Why am I not laughing all this kind of stuff we only going on not really going, but what's going on a little bit and just stuff really stayed with me. You'd get any rest from your brain diagonally wrath yeah. I think so. You watch television or read so when you say that cookie five years. Why why the stopping and starting is never gonna, stop in a storm just really slow. Really, oh yeah! I'm really slow and meticulous yeah a little bit. Yeah but I mean the stuff very important to me. The unknown in turn,
if getting the words rank. He had just in terms again the words like that's all the language man in all its mess, the stuff that you know brings me joys, hopefully that books written well in the eye, all the crap. It takes me long long long time, And what is your question about? What satire, yeah, I don't know man, he adjusted these words at people hide behind a cause. You got to say something satirical, it you're, not that what does that mean? You know that. What are we sat arising? Am I being sat arise. You know it's a good thing of each of its good deflecting work. This has nothing to do with me. I have no couple billowy. It's like I am out of us the efforts of its a word, but it's much much more then, that you know it's loan. I think, about all this stuff like how to teach us that our class oh yeah yeah know- and I call it like too soon or not soon enough. You know cause like this I d like when our thinks funny the return, but this lubeck movie you know to be or not to be, which is a fucking brilliant movie, though, of course was to close! Then
yeah you know not american enough in all. These are the kind of things and lets a fucking class and ass. They react how you do it, how you know you're thinking of the younger kids in so I mean that there are so fuckin smart behind, so is interesting to see in the sense of right and wrong blur. What they can do. The other so uncomfortable cause get told you, you can't use a language. You can't do this. You can't do that and just to just see in especially they'd red port noise complaint. We a lot of patent rennet which, as you know, It is such a seminal book for me, yeah act like oh yeah. You can do this. I know you could do this going ahead and even a lot of there being over, like Do this as a woman. How come women don't write like this? You know which is not true, that women do or don't like that, but you know like its interest They just get these narrow things about. What writing is Zia? What these things are so for me, I'm just trying to give them stuff of people doing the unexpected the area.
yeah do whatever you feel like doing. Yeah put it out there, absolutely yeah. Absolutely so! what has been the this room, black academic reaction to the book I mean, I think, I'm good no, I don't read a ton of the reviews down there. No, I don't. I kind of read them at the beginning and and every now and then somebody will put rest of my wife week. You have to read this when you have to read this one, so I read something: I can't see like romania, but I, but I thank goodness As I can tell you know, I mean I think one provocative I mean if there about a year. The best you can help from a critical essay is that you take. Couple ahead, but at least see something. Maybe you didn't even anticipate ere. You know I just try to do some shit that only I can do in oh anna. yeah. That's what I'm trying to do really know, and so- and I think you know that you know, I'm not the only weirdo out there but yeah, I'm not the only person who feels cir cert, something away, so you don't have a thing.
This is not about an essay the black but is about like when people pander vienna it as I just try not to pander right now. I understand that again and try the parent or my own way. You know in a kind of no what's came up to me and she was no. She identified with them. Algae he community yeah. She was like I want to ridicule all this kind of stuff and satisfies all this kind of stuff, but I'm so afraid you know because we works, It's hard to create what little space we have here and I don't want to make fun of it and I was like yeah. You know, I am not gonna tell you what to do, but everything that you add whether it's accepted reject it whatever. That adds that space That adds the interest in the area I am just trying to eat because I'm really trying to add to anybody else's space- I'm just trying to you, know sure get my own think. That's an interesting point. You know that You know that anything that provoked whatever you dogma.
nigger structural limitation. The idea of a space that is presented dire or you need to be maintained to to aren t that's beta, oh, if you push on it, sometimes that space gets a little sense, humor near maybe I mean echoes oftentime little reply. I am little reflection lou. Did I do something like this be come interested b? become interesting to a movie. Personally, I guess there's been some interesting like actually sold the rights and I'm trying and for the first time I've actually agree to do the screenplay like I've always said, I'm not going to do the scream. Why? So? How do you do that? Because I have no idea mark I've started on it. I have no idea cause like if you look at like a catch. Twenty two or like know
it was pretty disjointed pretty stunning year aiming them film. Yeah yeah, like I have just you, have garfunkel's fro so yeah, it's an alan arkin being crazy, but yeah, but like you that movie, when you read that book, it's like you can never imagine the the the breadth of that. You know being a film and then you see this film in its a very surreal experience, disjointed jointed by beautiful experience, yeah, and I think that's it's like translating stuff. You know it's, you know so if you always lose something. You know book the film sometimes fino fear a bookie lose something yeah yeah, and so I think that just goes with it. So I'm just going to try to have fun with it and try to rewrite the book as a movie. You are try to make a different and a weird where and so my challenge, you know, so I don't know what will happen will seem was already talk in the usa, marked man plasma, As smart guy
great writer, the sell out an amazing book. I'm glad stockpiles nice to talk to him. Yeah gotta, w tia, pod dot com for the inter dates, I'll see you tomorrow, night Austin, texas, please don't scream for me to save jumper shop. I don't know where he sat but but come see me it's been girl. It's been funny. Let's see if I can play some music here,
hmm the. Bomer lives.
Transcript generated on 2022-09-03.