David Harbour became pretty cynical about the acting profession before landing the star-making role of Jim Hopper on Stranger Things. But he and Marc are in agreement that it was probably better for David to hit it big after four decades of dealing with anxiety, self-hatred, mania, fear, sobriety, and the difficult project of building one's identity. David and Marc also talk about Hellboy, the elves on the edges of reality, and the one character trait of Hopper's that David likes the most.
Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey people, you might have heard me talk about a documentary. I did the narration for a little while ago, it's called side, men, long road to glory about the incredible lives and legacies of three legendary blues men, pine top perkins willie, the guy smith and hubert sumlin starting today, in pre order it exclusively on itunes. It features body eight, the late gregg omen, Derek trucks. Susan to desk. He tim randall, Joe perry and more it's a great look at popular music. Three so get it on itunes, starting today, at side. Men long, to glory aright, let's do the show, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuck and ears what the fuck stirs? How's it going. I mark and this is wtf, my podcast welcome to it,
today, on the show I talked to actor David harbour from stranger things maybe you've seen him in other movies, black mass the equalizer with denzel. He was a knife in brokeback mountain Most people know him now because of a stir. your things I just whenever I david harbour on screen in, former another, even a revolutionary road he was in, but it it's on tv or movies. I'm like I hear some of that. I know that guy there's some about that guy. What's up with that guy, I've always he's memorable to me. and then we met at one of the award shows and then we kind of got to aachen in a crazy way. I too, crazy p. And then we made this happen when he's going to gonna recorded a little bit ago, back will garage part of the transition, but there was one these. It was one of these wtf enter interview, is that there is definitely some
emotional connective tissue between a mr harborne myself, I feel like. I knew the guy feel like there was a life for centuries, one of those kind of things like yes, yes, we've both been here before you know, so that was Enjoy that that's coming your way. You know, folks, I don't I really do not understand the stupidity of humanity. At times This isn't even in political censuses. You pouring rain and doesn't look like it's gonna. Let up. I think you can be up to mistake that all that I put forward before the flooding stir, its aim is it's reasonable to think from experience? It rain let up or that or that get as bad as it could get. But you know
I mean lava. I mean, there's no precedent, lava. There's just people hanging out not letting it ruin their vacations and wide lava? It's hot then rock from the center of the earth and people. Sort of tagging. It's okay, how's the lava. Today, it's all right. I predicting it's going to get too bad how the fuck anybody know what love is going to do. People are just you're playing golf. The writing bikes they're not leaving their land, could not love. Be it see, slow moving, but I dont know man may in I'm. Not you look, I'm sorry if any one whose listening to this is going through a put like get get some distance mandates. that the island you're standing on was made out of lava. I don't know how long it took, but probably slowly, but who the What knows how much is going to blow out of that whole people? Just you know, weighing volleyball. Haven't time newscasters lava,
bubbling out of a hole in the earth from from the core of the fucking earth. He doesn't go down that deep. I don't know hot fucking lava just bubble. in spraying out of holes and people are just. It's right over there. we don't know how bad it's going to get, what if it gets really bad it'll. Just The monument to the volcano in hawaii of two thousand a eighteen and when they start ask in a two hundred years, not unlike pay the new ask, evaded ma, these stone bodies taken from this particular natural disaster will just be in golf swing or perhaps to catch a kid, a on a skateboard it as he tries to jumper a fisher I don't know but dead. I and I got I just its it baffling and- and I dont know that I will do the same thing. God knows: there's been fires
buying. You just hope it doesn't get get too close, but you can track that seems unpredictable when the earth is gurgle in coffee, its core out at our in the open and make a new part of the island. I don't know I'm not there, so I can't, I don't know for sure. What's happening, I started watching the new season of glow, which I involved with. I am an actor on it. And I've put it off long enough. I've had access to the new season for months. Not sure why I put it off but I don't know they're just something that it's it's something I don't watch. self that often, unless I have to I don't listen to myself that often, unless I have to I want to see I've. One else was doing. I want to see. The show to see how it all came together, so I've watched, I think so,
men are eight episodes and it's pretty fucking good every. Is good and I I don't know it. It is still difficult to watch myself on the show, but I'm here be with my work. There is definitely for improvement anyway, the the new season of glow, is excellent and you're all going to get to see it on the twenty ninth of this month. Okay, we'll see if tyranny is the way of future we'll see if american, or terrorism occurs, we'll see, How the mueller team reacts to this new letter from trump's lawyer, saying: hey man, the prez can do whatever the fuck. You want a no rules just some assumptions. No rules just assumptions. Constitutions, not specific, clear about the gray area in this but looks to us,
chip. It away that the press can do it the fuck you want so you're, just lucky he's letting you do what you're doing all right so shut the fuck up back off everybody body, no rules no rules just assumptions and tradition, write them down man, you better write him the fuck down. What else has been happening. What's going on with you anything am I I've been doing a little comedy again, I'm getting and I'm enjoying my house I'm starting to enjoy life. Others and I am not good at it in these in these horrible times, in these dark times the ironic thing is I'm starting to enjoy my life but my house, I've been buying some, things for the house, and I walk around this house all the time, even the garage. I love it. I love, sound in here now this kid Julian's be built up these things, these panels and
closing in on some I'm going to get new windows, but I just there's something about the folk so this room that I'm really get off on, and I don't know who you are, what your life looks like. Maybe it's difficult. Maybe it's ok bye things are okay right now for me, so I walk around my new house just thinking like is this going to happen, Am I really going to pull this off? Is this Am I really going to get to live and a nice wife do I deserve it? Do I get this doesn't seem like I get it. I should get it. I don't know why it's just like they're, just it's dumb wall of whatever the fuck it is, and my goddamn brain. That's like this. This is yours. So that's my fight! so David harbour. David harbour, is a great actor in in gauging guy I thought he was a little intense when I met him and and now I'm sure of it, see seasons? One and two are stranger things both on netflix
also in the new hellboy. He is the new hellboy that comes out to next year. and we talk about that and other things, and fight at the time I recorded this. I was like halfway through stranger things season. Two I was on but I'm done, I finished it. I loved it and it's great to talk to David? This is him, and I doing that hmm so here's a deal When I first met you right at the at the sag awards no, it was giddy. You I think, we're out front and I said I made a joke and I know you know why I felt like I: could you all excited and manic and I said, I think I said to you. I said I was hoping you would finish. You know whatever you started at this at the critics' choice. You said that my critics, just the thing, was described: half the caesars
it was just. It was surely a description of stranger things right right, so you wanted to know what happened yeah and at the end of the second season. But you are very earnest about the whole thing and you're. the reaction him of this thing, my love, the I love the the color on the word earnest. I appreciate it. No, no! No, you are. You are excited about what you had written and I was just making yeah. I was making A joke and yours to me was five year you alive, while the the ability of the that I could say that do you know I did, but then we're like people said we should talk, and I said uh yeah. I think how can a cigar just sucking on it? Yeah? Do I just chew on them
But then I said that I said alright. While I have the bookers getting charred the butter in your book or a book or the booker booker, and I'm like fine fuck it give me, your phone number is felt like you know, have my people call your like the biggest slight, the biggest hollywood slut I mean I I live in new york yeah. We talked to really come out here and yeah people want the bookers yeah help you out the boogers and then I say give me your phone number. You gave me your phone number and I texted you once about that. Booker's said I don't think I should give you my phone number. I said no, no, we're going to handle it and you're like okay, good and then I texted you again and you don't get them anymore and I said: did I cause him to change his phone number ha, yeah. That would know that it's funny did you text me again. Did why yeah? No! No! I have a different number. My m, a o. I had an instagram thing, happened on her own. I phone number got released.
on instagram, oh really an and I didn't know it, and I looked at my phone and I suddenly got like one hundred missed calls from like two big kansas but was it generally yeah? I checked the couple the messages they were like hello, messages of that. I was like what are you doing this these situations? I guess a change. Your number. I never change. My number, though that's a kind of horrific experience, cause you're sort of known, and you have a list of contacts, mainly people, that I don't speak to right, but occasionally you get people who, like you, don't really know who texting you they're like that, are having a number of rabbit, but I feel presumptuous to actually send my new number out to someone like you. it feels a little bit like aggressive. Like hey, you know, have you you need to contact me now, it's better that I just think you're a big shot. Like my taxes, that's it. I think I texted you a picture of a cigar. I was smoking and I texted you the other day, just because
you're coming on, and they you know they show of green. Is that a blue is texting into nowhere. Okay and I might have never met, I would have changed a number. Thank you for that. Well, no I mean I. That number is probably the redistributed eventually yeah you know cause. You know I actually have some guy's number now I shouldn't have changed my number because I have urls number url and url gets calls from all kinds of people, I get an audible, personal and, like others, live here any more, and that gets a lot of like he's. Gotta credit is your site like they're, always offering him deals. Well, that goes with the name. Earl. You don't need a lot of girls that are in good shape. True, like one of those names, we have to be around sixty or seven the kids aren't being called the children are, called url any. I dunno. Why not? I think it's made me feel like it's a throwback to like it's medieval times, the earl of riley's, the I thought it was more of a kind of a you know, a small townie,
in MIKE Url. That's around the bar areas out of his tractor, but it is one not one of those ones that was resurrected by the hipster, so he wake with the jacobson, the phoenixes in the mountains and the whatever they are parkers. now when the road truth there, some truth, yes star star light truth, not even names their liking of, we're tapped out a name to offer their just now in saying the dog, but so ok, so there me happy because it wasn't adding up that you would still be coming over if I had caused you to change your number, so we got the ogre that you took that I I appreciate ratio I'll take I love it. I love that neurosis me yeah yeah, so is it well. I find people with
I should do finally with a lot of self hatred or an unhealthy amounts of aid should like as porter beautiful people. I think that they we do would certainly rather take it out on yourself or someone else, but yeah yeah. It's sorta, like you know, if someone says I'm going to kick your ass, you right now, I'm on it and is is no niac like I recovered yeah, you just you just work at it, even when you're angry at someone else. You know that that person is just sad inside of the angriest at themselves. You are and that sorta makes you feel like it's. Ok, Yeah no yeah, maybe that's kind of an excuse that I have when I get forgetting angrier people is that they know that that you might am sort of justification. Like if you were bad behaviour right yet as well. Have you worked out into your apologies with the crying lady? Hey? I got comes a sad and sorry that I said those things that you do not in that direct a language, but yes, some form of that. Yet I'm sure I have a b a in a look. Or an eye brow re, something like you it it's hard to have one
I think I'm older than you and believe me, the unresolved are older than I am, resolved. Self hatred eventually becomes exhausting and you realize what do I mean really need to have this be part of my process more because for some reason most your life, you think it's not a choice and it kind of isn't, but you can temperate, you know what I mean eventually. yeah it be exhausting to other people. It's a self and embeds. True, that's true does into yeah yeah it does. I mean it's like you know it's it's a funny thing, even in terms of like stress in general and just I've always had a feeling like as an artist that you have to be so more in touch with all kinds of things right. Even the idea of your personal truth here, which can be harry annoying to be voted out, only an editor certain boy, you're kind of like whether or not I have to say my truth- that the atlanta, whether I have to be even true to that right, like maybe I can just be happy and may beckoned dislike, shut my mouth. He s got a chill out, yellow uncomfortable, but
in the long run that'll be a better way to live right, yeah transworld that other stuff being stored? Can we sublimated another matter creepy way, and I am happy and then one day you just alluded the coffee maker, yeah yeah yeah, that's it that's broken. Now I gotta clean this up. That could go for that. It's a metaphor for anything. Yeah look I broke it. Why didn't you just stop bigger your house after five years of several of eggs have just break his grey. I'm ok, yeah very brow, get clear need someone was over in just sitting. There smiling, I feel better. I feel better now that doesn't look good I wonder ultimately that you're clearly the we we have something in common, which is our expectations that we set. Ourselves are unreachable and yeah, which becomes you know like that's what self hatred is like? What is self hatred
ass. We couldn't we comparing itself to everyone that you have a personal goal in mind. Now is a constant apparently, meat coming up short actually coming out right. I guess it's a hard place to keep yourself but I've been ready well every natural, and I think that it is your aid. It is informed. You rose thanks for noticing now. The work that you are drawn to is also drawn. Do you hear tat moment in in the imf? and tat s where you were fought worth, I wake up in the morning. That's exactly how I feel it's another actor's name egerton with Edgerton he's good, but he's like nah we're What are you talking about?
yeah yeah, that's that's close to home, oh, but you like what stranger things which I you know I was. He was funny because it was one of those things where my I dunno yeah fantasy. So, the fantasy lover. Never was the hype stuff cause, I don't. I wouldn't have watched it as a result of the hypes, though I don't I don't. I don't pay how much attention to highpoint I mean eventually I get to things but like I just saw it like it was for kids. What do I know but then again, like I watch the? What is it the shape of water- and I didn't think I was gonna watch that, but I was going to watch the oscar movies and, as you know, even that was fantasy in the garage. A fish guy. And I was going to be pretty upset if, if he didn't live You know like I was like I was going to it. I am I get this those that way. If the ice guy, if the fish guide dies, I'm not can be able to really deal with life for three, the movie really affected
they everything you have like. That is logic. Empathy like what rw aquatic em, but what I'm finding as I get older and as the world ends there, I'm very raw and sort of open, so yeah, but I'm also, as you get older, do you think of that sentimentality or do you think that's like you'd just get wistfully sentimental about all sorts of things I think what's happening? Is you know because I've had a incredible lack of ability to function. You know in my real life comfortably with intimacy that is at all they. Emotions are coming out in weird places. why? When you're watching vision by my out yet vaguely on the couch allowed this outer eating or in the morning I show you pig slowly, queer quietly weep just kind of Unifil eventually take that within the stop yourself and you why my skill If they're going to be then and then
about crying by yourself is when you stop yourself sort of like that's it who you doing that, for oh god, you vocalize it to target yourself about it, but so so, like with stranger things, though, yeah. I have a propensity from back in the day when I was, I think, a little more borderline personality disorder and a little more hopped up on cocaine. Where I had a you know, I I was pretty conspiracy minded you know a couple of decades ago. So anything that triggers my shadow government, you know I knowed you'd, be swear to govern about the first six episodes, unlike this kind of makes sense like this is this is not so far fetched sure we don't know what the whole is. Why that say open date, but by the idea that there remain k alter. I asked you to the whole. I am not that big of a lie. I would go into a little more but either
there is the documentary that we are getting a making. I think if they d the, I know they, the kids, You bet radio where's the explanation. For the whole, It doesn't matter really cos. I I like, I know the kid you know. Has these gifts and you know there's other universes and it was from the Houston agenda x in the experiments, were they were able to tap into these? Other universes through, What aren't alucinacion somehow they manifested the whole to the peril universe correct that anyone who's done acid or mushrooms know, even if you Is our life or whatever you will? You know it's always like when your trip in yosemite, like I just you know, you know like there's a moment, there's something on the periphery where you at call illusion. Anyway, this is all that there were there's that right and there is actually like the what's fucking guys now is for gets wine. book positioning
I have to be the modern sort of timothy leary hallucinogenic he was at the cutting edge of of you know the the new interest in the in. What's that new, the Houston eg, the hallucinogen that people are doing now, like you know, like a little hipsters, going down to oh iowa, yeah yeah. He the beginning of that and that's why he started peel. What the point is he sort of yo in his book sort of states that, through his hallucinatory experiences, he believes there's a parallel universe at source. got beings so beans. and now what's happened in stranger, things is somehow or another you have they. They opened the door to it. Hopefully, to me this will be something that we explore further mean they have to sort of. They have to sort of explain like what it is. The eventual like is it the future? Is it apparently hang back Daniel pinchbeck? No idea, it's alright, Daniel pinchbeck?
wrote elves on the edges. Nothing does know it's all. I got That's what that's what I took from it elves on the edge and if it really does sound like the time required for computer like really excited about that No, he wrote to the elements, not the edges. It should be called that now the book that I breaking open the head, a psychedelic journey. The heart of contemporary shaman is okay, okay, the return of keats yankee quetzalcoatl. Cool. Do you have you will I do? I went through a huge phase, who's that guy a cleat or something like read a book called about shamanism that I had tried to read like eight hundred pages of and then got pretty bored and tell me your self hating sewer how about how this? How about this redoing jane's? Now the
the breakdown of caught the by camera, all mine time. I've seen that book, yay origin of consciousness and the brand the breakdown of the bhai kamran, mind. Okay by camel mind, is basically this idea, which I find kind of interesting right now, just like in greek times like you know he had athena like going in inspiring telemachus and the odyssey you're serving jerk. So, like the idea of god, I can't do something because he feels like it will yeah he, but he actually doesn't have consciousness like they're saying that it doesn't like like telemark. at that time period, not consciously right, they just the conscience with broken down by this idea of gods and people right so like even the idea of genius like living in the walls like these all these I He is where that actually, the people back than weren't conscious and the consciousness sort of incorporates these two two sides of the brain jerk gods, and that without It's kind of interesting yeah. I don't know how many you stop by page, fifty
The way shall, like terms of stopping on pages, I would like to send out a bookshelf. I've covered over here, as oh, have with debutante about the books area link I gave I'm ever say like ground These are raised both stuck out of me as likely eighty eggs garage and x ray. Why we are now it looks so now aren't I now I live in our going to try to try to virtually you're gonna, try and like it. I like ninety, but no but like I've, talked about like underlining you lot, but alright, then I'll start a new page. Thirteen. Forty five also kurds, agree about the underlying genetic thing because, like you said there was a pattern in the book. I do yeah. Do you ever go back and look at what you've been sure you do, but no and I'm always really like. That's what, like I'm sure what's up That right you are. You read the paragraph. Would you like? I realise that line yet no I've that line like that book. I want I don't think I enjoyed in that. But what's his brothers, karamazov or happiness for dummies did you?
Oh here we go it's a dramatic reading Actually, getting too must just grooming. Are we really what I came but lies wits about the same as in this book? I love this book. It's called securing this the answer inside america's best counter terror force the n. It was about it about how the envoy P2P became its own security entity after I know of him because they they didn't really have you know that right this financial support from the f b. I, u s governor the cia, who was battling with the fbi, so new york had its or take it upon itself to to put together a at the best security force in the world and wipe,
great book, one having is like when I was going through it. I saw like one. There was one underline in that, like that's always the good ones were wearing this right. Like you look like I just. I underline one bit of dialogue in here, and I think I remember what it is. Oh yeah yeah this I love. This is sort of paraphrase before he's talking to a cop. Discharging like these costs speak to simplify big issues. told me an old homicide detective once told him, as they stood looking at a body in the street that the motive, for all. Murders quote come down to three things: pussy fear and money, uncluttered, henny paused and I thought about it, since you now then the older I get the more I think, yeah, that's about right, uncouth know was like right out of a film noir right. Yeah, I wouldn't be real. That's a brilliant underlie yeah mine are much stupider than that congratulates big guns steps, I'm no, we find some stupid y know. That's that's good.
yeah good one. I guess the point of this like what I was going to win when you bring up, because I but I hear when you say you know you review of god on some. These beheld journeys are your open to this or that germany or whatever, is not. Unlike me, you know, like I'm, fascinated with it, but I'm not I'm not hanging any hope on it. We like go I'll, look into it like bright. Like I don't see my As a guy on a spiritual quest, I know what you as that guy, my brother's kind of that guy, a dd. It doesn't always work out, but I've actually I mean I'm forty two now right so like add twenty years of doing this stuff, and I I do I wet stuff wow like at getting fascinated by the religious journeys I mean for awhile like when I was a. I mean it's funny that you sort of lucked into this. I don't know if you have some weird kind of like sharman intuition, but it had been a big part of my life until recently, where I actually gave it up entirely like you lost your faith, I lost my idea
I mean for me, I was always looking for the answer. Would we then I got this layer now? I don't care about the answer and I don't I I don't want to ask the question and I'm like it's fine with dying. It's enough. You know you're dying yeah. Look at that like I don't need an afterlife, I don't even need a reincarnation. Lecom sounds also has to hold the afterlife. We just has to keep going. I mean what forever that's the funny thing I mean like it does. Look I'm good with consciousness being like sixty or seventy years, and then we're like good, like I've kind of done what our consciousness goes back into the big pool. I know about it, yeah exactly we're not spread out If funny thing about because here's the thing like I have a friend who, as this is one of college fraternity brother,
is there a while back? It was just. It was just because, like everybody at dartmouth was like nah, I know I know don't worry, but not as good thanks, but but anyway he he became buddhist monk, a guy called taken a hum. Yet anger, guy sure, is a lot of things I mean getting. Sure the anger didn't he book about. Angry arab waves were at written like eighty books that whether it was not the bride. What you're gonna do liven up our globe is given to me. Ok, I hope I do this. But anyway he has there's a monastery down in escondido. That he's add, I would go visit him down there and I go like hang with the monks and I really into buddhism for awhile and it is funny. But this idea about reincarnation is that you don't get to take the one thing you don't get to take with you as your ear.
if any of your own, like knowledge of yourself yeah, you don't get to take rip off. We abhor like how great like, as to our point like after sixty or seventy, I'm going to be done with my own ego yeah. I know what I mean, like I'm ready to put that bad like done its job, hello, you, how your dad's doing it hangs on again. You know what you're late seventy not not not given up. That is just yeah and pretty tight, but I did know I did go on like it was funny. Even when I was twenty, I think when I was twenty five I I got into catholicism and I are we born and converted to catholicism. I was born as like a christmas eve. Protestant which is like you just go and light the candles on christmas eve, and you know the song so where'd you grow up in westchester county
at watchtower, a plane, okay, yeah yeah. So, okay, so nice, new york, yeah, it's nice that snows your seasons of trees, exactly yeah and then you can just drive to the city may be well yeah. We take the train, the ice, storm train and I'm sure you don't get electrocuted so alright. So so will your parents what what? What would they do? The real estate? My dad was real estate commercial, real estate in white. Oh and my point, the small time, a yes or a view. I had a good business parks or shopping mall yeah. Exactly exactly. I remember. Actually, one of the fondest memories I have of my dad is like driving around. I think when I was like eight or nine- and I remember him like he never talked about business with
yeah, he would never at dinner. It would always be about media would never target binding, and then we drove around white plains and at one point he had a sign a like a big building me a big old seers or some bright, and it was like the face of like and he was like. I am leeson out that building and out like the most exciting thing, I was the first time in my dad ever like her out of business mere ngo, yet is cool. I love. That's amazing yet said like rats. I'd like his company like she are lacking, is small business because it was his business here. He he ran him and like having he hired another guy. One point math, and it was a very small wipe our real savings by your mom and my mom was a homemaker until we left for college. She realized housewife.
which he end up doing sheet and went on to say. Let us get right. One of two come residents got her legs it. Actually I exactly gunnar like that that sort of her coffee, the georgia, edna business guards and yet park benches and my mom sends me her real estate calendar with her picture on it. Every year, her cousin, agent, the calendar it's still in it yeah but she's. Not she doesn't have the disposition for it and she's not a killer florida like in her development. If she knows the person you know it seems they let her sell the house, but them yet avatar she's never been there yeah might allow me to my attitude. I mean my mom was always a creative, like I got all of my creativity from my ass. She just never sort of had the opportunity or to sort of bee creed Oh yeah did I saw how do you know my mother, my mom paints and she started painting again
yeah yeah yeah. She plays them when I was a kid and she kind of gave up on it. I guess she got crushed. I think she went to get her masters when I was like you know in my twenties, and I think it was just too for her to be the older lady. In the do these She would do like crochet and needlepoint style yeah. She was a kid and then she also made these things, which I would love to find them, but she would make like a like which cause they all grub and text. and he asked in a really ass, like real southern we're, like irish irish you by way of houston, by way of like stainless steel for oil, a half my big sort of major all companies from her, as I read only from her so the family and very much like your watch dallas. The analytical a bit like dallas share- and I was much money back eyes- is texas. If you were into that yeah yeah sure I'll go down that it was, they were my favorite family cause they were and you know they were. irish, their charming than your tall, and you can handle a hat and I had a little
at when I was a little cowboy from five years old. I used to have that little cowboy hat area the strong armadillo pin was like a tie. Pin then I found that was an armadillo put it right in the front. Had your boots I remember we used to yeah and I remember we used to play poker in the back room of the the corporations called the riley corporations like when cause they didn't. Do any business Basically me this royal business, who is the stainless steel the arroyo but like they weren't, do in a business I'm in Israel has on second cousin well, so these were like due to worked in the office when loved it. I'll just go sit with them. They were fascinating, like all guys I was like six guys would just make jokes and we would buy like they got me into like blow guns. Do guns. I like darts yeah, like yards or buy me things like that: yeah bows, yeah, yeah and then and then one point we played like poker in our society. These guys seem like really good with
his yag photo here's the day, so one of them won. He said he didn't have enough money or enough chips and I he was like well, let's bet your hat and I was like okay, okay and I lost, and did they all day long. He wore this like cowboy taunted like miserable, I could have believed I loved by Adam, be crying hold. Ask him, of course, and this is a different time. First of all time that I kind of miss like these guys were hard guys and even in terms of the show like stranger like that, that guy is modeled on all these guy guy who were like you, don't cry as a guy like you, but like I would also miss what he just wore it around all day like he. I walked around the office. All there are these teeny tiny cowboy. When did together. He gave it back to me at the end of the day so hours, oh yeah, oh, like a full day,
like for business. What did you learn from that David? I mean what did that man teach you? I don't know there was nothing. There was no lesson, it was just funny. Was it In looking back, it's a good, it's a great desire. We call it with farmers at the time it was paid. Well sure it was an adult hurting you biometric, as I don't play poker there you go in record of, like you, gotta pay your debt, exactly. If you make choices, there are consequences that you That is, I get on your hat, but but my mom did used to make with her sister. She made these like trash cans and they would cut out. Like magazines, from like all, as he's like even national geographic or time or life or whatever, and like all these scenes, and they would make these scenes would like some kind of thick resume
yellow. We rubber some men hype thing and cover the whole may fear and their beautiful, but I am they're gone gone on where they are, then we are your parents around. They are theirs therein, westchester can, after I could you I mean the thing: is we sort of fell out with their family in texas? So we We got an old doktor them much! Oh, oh! I thought I was your mom's trash cans. They were, but I think that, like they were sort of in a closet in my grandmother right out, so you any fell out of order. Grandma! Well it also after she died, also fell apart and money in a sordid next Is that what happens just to everybody? Not just reading that book? money, pussy and fearsome, sleepy I know that trickles down it's why relationships die russia, it's cause, so one of the three. That's it that's the try another. Some fear as well the trinity, but but yeah.
Yeah. It's a funny thing, though it actually really soured me like money when my family, I can't like I want- I mean I do I, but I don't want any sort of inheritance ought to give them all to my sister lay. I have It's me out that people get like the I'm not hung up on that either you know a, but I I guess I understand it if the stakes are big enough at all. Like I realize, as I read the paper and I see people's behavior, you know then their shameless lack of I have a moral compass when it comes to weird, like I don't understand the evil. Like greed, like, I really don't understand why I don't look as mean you boil. It sounds like you like. I live in a four hundred, fifty square foot us like alcove studio in the east village, yeah and, like I don't have who have family are probably another better a brief, but like the idea that you need, waste of your time. So much I just bought a bigger house and I don't have enough stuff to fill in. I feel a little weird about it, but I I just felt like maybe it would be interesting to experience more space
because I don't doesn't look like I'm going to have a family. But but my point is here, is that you know like for me like. I started giving money to charity. Maybe I could use a little to expand my quality of life, but I grew up like, and I thought about this recently is that people who set out make money figure out a way to make money in the same way that you talk about the veto. The chairman and yeah yeah, exactly and and and and it's sort of thing, it's a thing that it's all they want. Yeah I mean that is this number you can do with you. I am not exactly. I got figure out a way. What's my hustle, what's my racket, how do I have what what angle am going to work to make the money to have that life and with the soothing in the end and all that stuff, it's sort of like you know like I just I don't. I can't deal with what it turns people into You know, and I and in the end it's not all the individual. I mean I've gone through one divorce. That was not so bad. Another divorce that was fucking awful. You know, and it was just ass. It was about. We have no money,
in an entitlement in retrospect. I understand it, there's a way to hurt someone right leg in those negotiate away to, like you have a lot of times are turned out by evil, fuckin lawyers, the everybody likes a hope. but you're lets you know. Yet I will your hat because way back That was the lawyers the mark, the in so like as a kid I gravitated towards charismatic older guys cause my dad was relatively emotionally and attentive, and I liked you know the stories and there they seemed at a defined sense of selves in and spirituals I just never noticed in liking like when you talk about hanging around with the old guys. Oh, when you're younger you just sort of like there's this whole people and they're like look at that guy seems to have a shitty like he's a whole I think, like I went through most of my life being like I'm ill defined and I don't have any boundaries like I don't know. Am I a person what's happening? Do I have a personality? You know
yeah. I was always reactive. You know. Most of my personality is built on reacting badly and eventually I got funny yeah yeah buddy, I dunno. If that and you had to deal with because I know I mean that makes a lot of sense. I mean I identify tremendously with that idea that you that this ill, find the emir marina even a high school. Like writing an essay about how I felt like an alien like watching the added beings from afar. I was very much kind of a quiet person who would like kind of watch instead That was even that even bled into my fascination with religion or spirituality was his idea that, like other people, had an answer, that, I didn't have. I sort of walked around with this like fleshy thing that felt porous, unlike was weird at york. Worry I felt lombard in my skin where's. My instruction and yeah exact guys are all walk, you're like doing things in the world, and I like them. I answered I get that when I see a guy with a leaf lower some mike s garden figures. Eyes has its price,
solid guy. I think that you going away deep sea alone, more simple life, but every time I have that fantasy of liking, I'm just going to go off the grid. I can't not unlike with drugs and alcohol and stuff which I haven't done in years. It's sort of like I know like if I do that, then, like you know by day three, I'm going to react to what I do, I'm going to fucking cabin you're, getting a silk. average yeah, but I did the same thing. I iced. I don't do that stuff anymore, either for years and years what I rarely rarely drop this shit off the ship for fifteen years yeah yeah, although I did have a little dalliance when I was out here like five years ago, I had a little a dip into what they know. You guys have medicine here. The medicinal are, you. Are you to rationalize I'd, some of that you're gonna come at great idea, the other matters I wasn't. My never was my thing is. I gather you guys are all doing those who promote three months and severe depression.
It really is a means of euro is good thing to go back and we went out. I mean I can't do otherwise like. I can't do otherwise. I got a card and you it was always funny, because I was you that got you're the actual believe the doctor right. Oh he's right, you do to me. I am no, but now I went to dr feelgood on venice boulevard, who looked like the sickest person I've ever bethany on the boardwalk yeah. It was on the venice boardwalk and you paid two hundred bucks. You get a shirt but but he yeah, I remember I was working on a tv show where I was like a regular, but I would only work like once. Every two weeks my align hang around out an hour. I would use at my house in venison just like eat gametes, and you don't just, and it was It was so sad, like was to see they already. I would avoid like the plague like either. Why do you do you really russia? Does it or not think it should be called dummies? But I agree with you.
but we are programmed, I did you have to start over oh it's humiliating. I had like thirteen years ago. I'd also like it was, I gotta say like sorry of laughing, but you know I I went because we, if you have I dunno, it's not know. If it's humid, I it's my absolutely biggest fear it's like. I swear to god. What's so you know what please, god I wish you were at the meeting when I came back because I have to say, like I I said that Adam so I was like ten days, yeah, something ryan and I and I they were like it was a pitch. It's a it's a superintend. It's really like word, though, is like a bunch of your ten days, ten days back. Yeah he's back in the old timer like what are you going to say we're a little behind them, though, and then I was like. Listen I'm just you know, I'm just feeling really bad about myself like I had hit thirty I ten days like I feel like and then, like the next guy cross, and was like that
ego talking. You are a selfish like, and I was like. Oh my god. I just want to die and like you're like yourself, it's because you want to die and he's like. Oh yeah thanks. I welcome back as a born person in the room, yeah yeah right thanks a lot for the support and malignant tough love that the political astor that nearly exactly what I will say in defense of the program. There were many people that gave up the mayor was no that's not the way. We do it here. Yeah, that's the great thing about it and- and I I supported one hundred percent like I it's not so much. He I mean I obviously you know, I always say: don't represent a, but I dont know another way. This away. I don't know it's over. I know that you know when people ask me about that. If I get he males suffer, my tent goaded goes out, can meet is going to be made and we may in a worker who work, but it's away and it's a context and doesn't cost nothing.
Go Yang. You know if it doesn't sticky whatever way, but that that's all that's really like any you go, you can go to that thing. Like anywhere yeah, I mean in taxes were near some reason of on the on the road, and I look up a meeting. I will go to the worst one. I waited all the time I will be like. Where am I guess it's do? People live in this neighborhood I went to, those speaking meetings in gary yeah ex ago paris. I well yeah. It's alright, it's great, but ok, So what would you end up? How do you end moving towards acting okay? So that was so. Basically what happens is like when I was young, There has been a hambone yea, my younger sister, seven years younger, but she you know the for seven years. Developmental era are like some of the most important matter as an only child or of the
seven year yeah and look what happened exactly so. I have a lot of the components of like a lot of the traits of an only child. Oh really, yeah sort of yeah show. Do you know your sister's name is that I could play go. If I go through my phone and hear yeah. No, no, I love her very much. I love her very much. I were close, but it's it was. It was hard for a while, but yeah. So I it was funny like when I I think that it came out of that feeling so like at first it was kind of a hambone quality like you're entertaining your parent entertaining. for some messed up reason trying to get some hay exactly or trying to solve a problem, yelled and childs. Where does away, I can fix problems that armed errand, my control and the horrible thing about The special golden child younger the first I was the first kid them young man I'll die. All yoga. Is that, like the events If you managed to you, know sort of you know, entertain them sufficiently. They'll always think you have your shit,
over anybody else annually and inside you like? No, no, no, I'm not I mean you, don't really show them that you don't write. Lengthy, haven't, got a exaggerate, how good they knowingly reveal you're, you're, funny chair and indeed some into which in out everybody wants to do this deal you hadn't, I know so I so yeah. So basically what there was one I when I got to be like in high school and stuff I sort of was drawn to that feeling of feel uncomfortable, mycenae, I being confused by human beings right like just cause. Simply confuse, you lead me to a couple different outlets where which was drinking right. And and then there was also this other outlet where I would see people behave in certain ways and I wouldn't believe them like they would a certain thing yeah and I feel like they would mean something different. Oh yeah, like I just started to see subtext where, like how we're friends were.
Rather I love you and you just feel like you hate that yet, like you know so Would you like me right or why are you saying something a completely counter like? Why are you lying and then the question becomes? Why are you lying? Why do you have to lie like what? And so I guess my brain just started fine on all these levels of like human beings or their confusing, and I hate them and also their legs. fascinated like the only thing I want to think about besides spiders, I really yeah yeah had to really love to watch a spider, but I, but I was so fascinated by why make the choice. He added you why they locked themselves into situations. They seem to not like why don't people live the way they want to? Or you know what is it that they're doing it so that led me to like acting as I would. You are already doing the work well, but I would also like an embarrassing person to have around, as I would have you I would like cut. People would try to be at a party and like targets and I'd be like that guy was too intensity. I, like, I think, you're saddened,
it's quicker and yeah yeah you'll be like. Why are you such a creep? What what's wrong with and the guy that the energy exactly just I believe that I am wearing like he's a twenty five one wrong you're, so truthful, like legs were ruining everything, and so I found that, like. I definitely had this stubborn pride in my ability to see people like the stubborn, stubborn, bright look. I know something and then I would do it at parties or at friends, and they would be like your horrible human being, stop it yeah, and then I would go on stage and like sort of reveal it and people would like applaud me. So it was very attractive. I was like, oh so this sort of truth of this ability that I think I have to see people I can do it through art or I can do it through expression of acting, but I just you know that made me hungry to do more of that and like to read, plays and like to get into like
so instead of like right, so instead of white projecting or may be seeing people for who they are and nod like, but just that you could at least see a character for what I felt the character and inhabited exit. Clay and reveal what I wanted to reveal through here my particular version in or whatever layer it was. I had ownership, I dont have ownership of human beings lay a guy but I thought I did it back to you when I read I try my art as but day, but I iD have ownership of that character, and I could do something, and so It was a way of having relationships with the magic, airy or attic dishes airport that, if you will allow me to bowl them over and like you know, use them for my own expression, yet contacts a say: may I add that had also where I knew the end of the story. Sure that was you think too was like emotionally. I have real problems with conflict and real problems with them. Just like in vulnerable emotion and general. J ai
I know the ends of stories like I like to know how things turn out. Yeah, like you, can behave in a certain way in this, and even in a way that sculpts what I'm drawn to in story, because I I do think that you have somewhat of a responsibility as a storyteller to like craft it for the world to like reveal to the world like if you do this in your life you'll end up here or If you do this in your life, you want you might end up here. So how did you lose ultimately over time? You lost that weird needy intensity, no. get. You feel you feel it cross the table but know a lot of what this podcast was? Is Eric? I don't know you but, like I had an exchange with you. That was two minutes, but I I decided something it's about yoga yeah it just you know, but like I do that with everybody, because I talked to people with public personalities here and like you know Pretty sure I got a sensor, somebody in I'm, always it it's always a lot of my interviews. Are our people basically
arguing against my idea when they are yeah yeah, that's great yeah, but you get a chance. It will. But I don't projected a nana. The I know who you are Would you that? That's what I do? That's not a good answer. That's why I don't have a podcast and stop talking yeah. It's my go to that's my go to know. I know, but I I guess I do have a brash. I do have kind of a brash confidence is that what you're like? What were you saying in reference to losing that needy? Whatever interaction of the week. No, no! No! No! No. I mean, like you know, because when you're that guy, where, like I feel that my version of that guy or people I mean I got friend. Yahoo is always pretty intense, but me sort of about you know like anyone we were younger. You know he was quiet and difficult and you know be resent him.
Adding, but he never went on, and you know you just sort of wight he liked being that is occupying that space. But for me I find that what a all of that stuff, the sort of like no you're, sad inside or you know like, why are you guys going through the charade? There's no point to this game, is that it there is a need to it. Like you know, I need attention or I sad or So now we're all my level, which is unhappy, and how do we figure welcome? Yeah, like you know, something to do with that lack of boundaries and not feeling whole but like the gift of of sucking. wind out of a room you know is a you know. This is not a small essay. That's a large talent that you have to know You got a right, you got figure, I had a wrangle it. You know and then turn it in on itself and, like I did ya exec yet, but but so you, you start pursuing it. School, the acting yea, I mean you know I did as much as it goes out of a middle school. There was a little thing
what is mainly happy but then, once again in the high school I started yet be really confused about people, and I do like school place like I. Just did. Highschool plays however, community theater, like all that stuff and I loved it so much geo like idea, it was the only thing besides drinking beer and like girls like made any sense to me. So I so yeah, I loved my actually wanted to drop by the high schools. Would like me, new york city, seventeen and just like try I was in a community that was very you know. There was no examples of artists. Right was all right. Lawyers and doctors, churn business, isn't peep real estate brokers and stuff so yeah. It was I was very much like any apparent. They get scared when you buddy agenda as high school for yeah you're, going to go to dartmouth yeah how'd you get into dartmouth, you must have been my has a legacy yeah we take him. He gave a
we'll bucks yeah. I guess I was more in a certain way and it is very you know where is able again go and someone new Hampshire yeah. I was hard, though, to go to that type of environment, because I just let me first of all I think, he's going to high school. It's like. I don't know why people don't. Why do you will go directly to cover gonna wanna go call yeah yeah, I don't go either in and I freaked out my senior year I got sort of mediocre grades for all the way through junior and then like some just lit up at me, a mike. I got it I d, like I'm, just gonna, hang out and do art here cause. I was thinking. I knew all the groovy people by the university and stuff, and then, like I dunno, I just realized why I gave the fuck out of here and, like I did my senior, I finally turned all my grades around. I still couldn't get into a good school ended up going to a small. College for a year. Ninety two bus going to be boston, university coronavirus. undergrad, while till you time
I know, but I did a lot of stuff. You know I acted. I wrote for the paper. You know he edited and wrote, poetry and fucking. You know I did all this stuff and cobbled together some sort of major at the end in english and film studies. Yeah but but yeah me, that's the thing about cause. There was graves like. I did read books and never would read I wish a low now like. I don't like to that's the thing and I feel like, as I wish, that there was a look I don't feel like this will be horrible thing for me to say, but like after we hire school like don't go to college, go to college when you're twenty five or something but like you're, sick of school right right. that, but also like. I just knew that. Like again, I was gonna, be a business guy. I didn't really know what I want to do, but I knew I wanted to be intelligent and intellectual. I wanted I like, and what I wanted to know about. Theatre art plays movies. You I'd that was, my goal was to be able to use, have come
stations about that, because if somebody you know in my life that was very impressed with that guy in that picture, on the top of the bulletin board, Gus Blaisdell, like he was this intellectual powerhouse owned a bookstore and you know like he was like you know, I decided that's the model, that's that's where it's at you know a little bit out that everything engage. Your creativity has nothing to do with money had nothing to do, but like export shit, I mean as a kid you have so much energy and so much sort of mad that I couldn't understand the philosophy I can wrap my brain around shit, I'm no good at math, so those kind of courses didn't do anything. For me, I'm not great at contextualising. You know history. So a lot of things that require discipline and and and putting things into context, not great, but you know like I could write and and- and you know, act and at you know, talk shit about movies,
that was our like. I still like I don't know, I I couldn't fuckin handwriting police authorities didn't really get anything out of college. We couldn't you got that by just come going to new york and like hanging out with a bunch of coldly, I guess so, but there is also the problem of that eventually led to my body being out on drug ownership, like I'm not sure without the context in which cradled me in my drug use in it, we do you know and I I still had to get up for class like that yeah yeah yeah and you still could you know, act like a big shot I do some writing and do some. That's true. That's true. It offers you an opportunity to like yep, be a part of paper Lenny, whatever lag rouse him yeah exactly yeah yeah, but you know my heroes rather wrongly they were going to all the ones in wonder in the mental asylum, from our being our hawks and get these guidelines are also that there are the greatest sure right mary. I do we talk about like I for me it was like. Gerald and, like all those rights, the toys, even a guy like you know, guy called heart, crane, yeah, yeah creme
rain or williams, and all these you know then like even like ezra, Oh yeah. I remember like redirect it s about four hundred large. We read the cat. Does a loud three glee lying all come together. We are all those writers or from the turn of the century, the callers millennials of, like the nineteen hundreds, They were all my myron shelly like big romantic, big bipolar people like so within there's acting there. Now, no yeah, I mean that's not where you did the act Well, yeah. I mean basically it's not through the department, though, like me and my friends got together and we wrote plays we put on our own place. I started writing and I started getting into like you know, avant garde directors and, like you know, at the time like Steven berkoff, Michael, you know, physical, these toddlers, contour and, like you,
read like a lot of petoskey and things like that, so we were really into like kind of avant garde. The richard or men, and I advise that we rubber wealth is. Are we came to new york together. Even people like I remember, loving, like Mary Zimmermann, like we alter road tribune and when to go, see like journey the west like which is based on the car and ancient fable. oh yeah and numb see it not started king and stuff, and so it was served like mythic but for man it was like it. We have this horse that it can bring. Our interests was like right out of the gate, really kind of provocative envelope pushing theatre yeah I mean it was very heavy stuff nea? I looked back on it as being not the most effective or provocative stuff I could have done, but at the time I felt that it was what was already and you were yeah you're young and that's what you do right. It's very hard to understand, like I remember, even saying, like a rather be brecht than Brad pitt like
the feeling of like, and I would manifesto like why you go to college. for lying. You can't just go or can get at your you're right, you're right, you can, but I think it's also like the chicken and the egg. It's like you did when you are at college of art in new york? You have to develop that line because you're at college, because you don't just go to ca. It's like your act, you're like stuck at dartmouth and people like ed, norton, nerd. At movies, near look at them rage for a drawing like yeah I'd, rather be here actor. Then, let's do our show in the basement of the cafes exactly yeah but yeah, but also it's confounding and it. You know it is part of, like you know, having a certain ego and then you get out into the real world and eventually that pounded out of you but like what are you talking about but like as you say, know once you get the fortitude, you accept and integrate yeah that shit for part of your development, and I can laugh at yes
and you could use it also right right eye of our great stars So when you a when you leave dartmouth, you go right to new york, then yeah. So I go to new york and with a group of friends, so we have a nonprofit theatre company for like two years. Really, oh yeah, and you know that's what was exiled at. So I got another name I said come on. This is doug about vulnerability yeah. This is the most embarrassing. Okay, okay, I could ever was. It's called isis ensemble. Ok, so I I was about to cry know what I do for different reasons that the fact that I admitted that highest is where, like in hamlet, there's a line says when the players are coming. He says there is certain erie of children, little isis who, like cry on top of prejudice talking about players in the city, that people really like yeah, that are like little children, yeah and so like it was born out of that young ox in greek or so
yeah, I'm not it was it songbirds. Halleck Mega might be a becoming listening going. I used to love the glass. I repeat, I think maybe three peoples are black, but we wrote you know we. You'd like sort of co right these like placed at her. These, like we're, plays and we'd like put them all, but it was basically like the thing about having a nonprofit theatre coming in york with it. So sad as they come at a college And- and all you do is begging your parents. Friends for money right is support for the area and all their kids are like you know, hedge fund covers I notice humiliated. I act is constantly riot the app I like. What are you doing with your life shirt, so you drink yeah yeah. They talk about the theater that you sit around bars like smoking with utahns and talking about.
The theater people, don't understand, we must create a new theatre right and when did it start? When did the the people start peeling off yeah? Exactly that's exactly what I was really early on pretty early on then, basically like I was with my girl girlfriend at the time like we were sort of the co head and then that broke, is a lesson in community around me: so even so that went yeah that went by the way, but also it was in combination with my bottom, Oh yeah, oh had audio ogata, so was all wrapped up in first of all, just this anger at the world via an and righteousness and self centered,
of like when am I gonna get my? What are they gonna recognize? My was yet in my feet are a car, but I like doing another thing and having knowing idea how to get any sort of attention whatsoever. Just vienna, just a rival. The act is like a riving into your cavalier unaware action right that I hear exert lay at. Did you have that as well? Would you like me, I said the ice to say you know it takes. You have to realise at hollywood. Is not your parents that you know when you get somewhere, you like, where. How does it? How you don't even think about how does it happen? It's sort of like I'm here I'll wait for the come get me and then two weeks ago, buying like this is work out. What level funny thing is like people ask me to I get like twitter messages from people who are like hey like want to be an actor. Can I? How can I be on stranger things yeah and I'm like
This was a lifetime of humiliation, rejection and work. That landed me on a show that got past the first season and you think that you haven't even acted before like just going to invite you. Did this allergy tweeted back now, I'd say I don't tweet about it. This is actually the way. Good luck. Hope someone sees this. That's like taking! cowboy hat, isn't as it's like wearing it around for a day: yeah yeah, it's kind of like where I get around, that's exactly it, but as we white fell apart it like twenty four young yeah. But that's actually, when I got you know when I stop drinking vienna, like you'd got? You got that in early in its yeah
I told her we'd yeah yeah, no, it's stock cars. Basically, what happened was it was funny like I saw. I got sober and and an awful party night and I had gotten an agent before them like a worthy crappy agent right, but I did get like a week into sobriety. I got my first paid. I was on a soap opera as a day player on as well yards, and it was like suddenly like I can make money, I could pay my rent, and so it was very clear. It was a regular gig. Well, it started out just today, and I guess they a mere whenever he added just kept. Putting me in the attic a recurring kind of thing, maria for like three years, and that is a gift to sobriety europe weekend in exactly it's like that thing, that I would caution prizes it's like you got him early, not, but I did actually get him early. I was like really liked. So when does the the the at the abrupt journey
the catholicism happen like like year year and a half into into sobriety wow. That was what you chose. Well, here's the thing, so I I got sober in the east village here and I would go and here's the thing about like being sober at twenty. Four is like you feel like such hell, and then you get sober and all these like dora. Bull. Yes, village, like girls, had guys like error and they do not dragging anymore. They, like their skin, looks great like every looks, healthier and they're all like the cool kids that I always wanted to drink with. Yet like weird and are already one other mind in fucking, each other kind of, and that, but also like being so kind of love a like, even if they won't bug you like. coming back like ugh, but yeah get sober these people, but one of the guys in there was this really fascinating. Guy here who was a he was like a gay guy from the village artist painter but was like a strict like huge catholic,
but, alas, land masses and like loved catholicism, and he was train it was going to become a monk with the franciscans in pennsylvania. Now can so eventually like he was. My sponsor arthur is the most brilliant guy I'd ever met like super smart and super into principles like wanted to be, as do as little as little as possible with the capital thumb living like an sro, four hundred and fifty bucks a month down. The hall like mad on the floor, would paint oil paintings and just was totally. You know. living I how our culture ascetic like exactly but like completely, I mean capitalism, makes hordes of us all right like didn't, want to be in as little as possible would actually make focus groups yeah, which to do watch for ad
we had a caesar yeah yeah and but he he became my sponsor yeah like he was a brilliant guy and we would talk about. We basically talk about. You know, philosophy all the time and he introduced me to a day profundity, which is like Oscar wilde's letter to bose. He wrote when he was in re reading jail. Oh really, she like a two hundred page piece of a letter of oscar wilde, just saying to buzzy, like your horrible, but also like going through his life and going through how nothing works. Yon basic I've tried everything right as an easy arria and like there's no salvation, and then he does say,
in the letter. He says the only thing that may work is christianity, but there's only one guy's ever done at ST francis of Assisi like and and And- and I was like fascinated- the I like oscar wilde would think that that was like the answer right right, yeah cause. I was very interested in the answer like I didn't, really understand what the what the point of this meat market of death would describe, like what is born says worlds, his blood tooth claw things eating each other johansson right shitting, The idea- and I like what the ring on is this as crazy as grace the great sobered, not we're gonna say like once. That's when I one of my problems was when I got sober yeah like when I was drinking. I was like fine, I was named out, but then I got sober. My brain started like you know, and then he won.
As to become among, and I was he's sort of got me in the closet, started. Reading the catechism when I started like doing catechisms instruction, he had his catholic priest and I started getting into mystic saints like teresa of Avila John cross, yak, augustine and aquinas and sahara, and it was like come darling, Are you sure? It's weird you go to go to europe. You go to italy in these places and I was sort of amazed at you. You go these different cathedrals in little towns. These huge cathedrals that were just sorta overwhelming the dis were designed to make the peasants just humble themselves and this the the shear amount of dead wizards that you know they have in place like he realized. This has really been going on a long time. Every one, these joints as at least nine dead, popes in It- and you know like in in it's in there so and you just feel like it's just like there's something. I always say which he about it by, but there is a real mine fuck to the mystical history of of the catholics. Are you have? No doubt you and I
find it beautiful and fascinating. I mean I can remember, reading three and and like sexy, like you know, like reentry survivor, like interior castles book. All in all being about this ecstatic. This ecstatic connection to drop the just made. You feel so watch yeah and who doesn't want to have mania when your depressive boundary with sad were so, but but here's, but he is so here's the energy thing which I've I've. Actually I've never truly spoken about publicly and it's interesting to like cause. We wanted to talk about the speech itself to a writer, but I I actually was in this catholicism thing and he had left and I was sober for like a year and a half, I was twenty five and I actually did have a manic episode where and I was diagnosed as bipolar, yeah. So I, why would you have done during the manic episode I ice. I really had like a bit of a break
Where are ya where I am you know, I thought I was in connection to some sort of god year that I wasn't really connection to are you guys gonna signals the sort of yarkand yeah yeah yeah and it was in and writing a lot earlier. The whole thing and it was like you know I had all the answers suddenly so I know drugs. I know, but the interesting thing about it is like. I realized that I don't really, much right that I have a capacity to city the elves the corners of the room. If I really allow myself to go there, yes, I actually was by my parents would have taken into a mental. oh yeah, you're living like your heroes. Exactly and I have to say one thing about them. Unless I was, I ever met this eyes, two things in my lap and both have fallen short. How are you?
What what is being in a mental asylum really really not as fun as you think it is no. But you do you have a romantic idea of leather you're, a genius and then it just winds up being you sad and then ass little shit, yes mouselike you now people like so many other thing was boating like I just recently when I ship in open water- and I thought I had read moby dick million times- and I was like this is good, and it's really not is terrifying, horrible, similar to the so yeah I was in. I was diagnosed bipolar and then that's when actually the drugs came, it was I started to be. I've been medicated for bipolar for a long time. Oh it's great. I've been a and, and I've had problems, sort of going on and off at us. I've had a struggle. Sure, off the medications that you you misdemeanor her or you think that you're, If you think that you're, not the artists that you could be right, you know what I think, you're not digging as deeply as you could be so yeah,
bearing all god let slip this ledge led. Let's see you, it's open this baby up, like you I'll, take the governor on, did there, but it s funny. Also my the funny thing about I particular brain, like mental illnesses, that every time that I've had an episode like that is always coupled with spiritual, the weird thing about me is everybody think everybody for general epbfi need to meditate more yeah. I need to like get into your elbow, and it's like, I feel, like eating cheese and just like smoke, it's an hang out here like the minute. I get close to that. What I consider a flame like the answers in them, the system and the like. I'm completely president of an like it's like I'm out of my mind, so it's like
I live. I if I ride the cell phone it's going to be about, like you know what the couch like play, some video games like do you know, don't let your brain run away like quit, because you, if you let your brain one in a way, you're you're just to your liking, maybe a few days shy of walking down the street with a robe, no joke like egypt like I like, come join me in my long. It's an amazing thing and tell me this irrational evasion start with, like maybe I'm not crazy. Are you kidding me? First of all, have you ever been to a mental asylum, the only thing that defines a crazy person and a normal person, the only thing because they can seem you can seem very normal. The average person here the only thing divide is they're, convinced, they're, saying like crazy. If you are convinced you don't understand, know they, they don't
I'm the only one who gets it. It's incredible, it's a fine conversation is having in this country right now with you know the shooters and now everything in terms a gun, control and people want to make it a bow. Mental illness right, but the thing is my traces with mentally ill, be blows of. Is that it generally met tons of like gentle like wonderful pdf, like I cleared there, really is still a stigma. That's like this strange thing, it's always psychotics, so you so like once you got leveled off you, you you're acting you start to pick up or like When did you? When did you start doing broadway and stuff? Well, yeah, yeah? once I kind of got yeah that problem yeah, and then I you know I was doing like kind of all are plays, and then I want of doing numb whose very virginia wall from Broadway a gap tony or something nomination right lost great.
it was great, it was a great show, was a really great and lean turner. so you are the younger couple area, your neck and honey me in this actual me right. You know scanner now, you're. What's the killing, and I say it, she's good she's, great act, elegant access, but a bill or wouldn t know pillar one I do Well, yeah he's a clown, yeah yeah yeah. He was mr noodle on sesame street. He played he played the older clade george yeah really, and he was great because, like the thing at the movie, is like the movie of richard Burton in that role. Yeah and he's like such a bill is like a skinny or yeah dude and like give kathleen turner who's like you know turn right. It was a kind of great communist, very different production outside areas like a rock concert, I really love how he acts like oh yeah, like every night we'd come out and people are like scream and cheer really is a very funny play here. I mean it's a humiliating played it for a year and like he knew
immediate or get so humiliated the end of the play like he can't get it up with her right and he and I we're being made fun of, and our member like around eight months into like an honest with how with laughter ass. You would like make these jokes about him. Like Mammy S, eyes like about eight, then having these like little dizzy, spells where I just be so mad at the audience. Laughing at me, because I had so deeply like, as I realize I spent more time in that house, I would spend three hours a day. Eight shows a week. but like so much time. Actually in that house yeah periods in may, I am almost like. Oh yeah, sure you d crossing earlier Lee s almost like you're, actually living that life. Your than you are your own say. The upside down was wroth, as is actually the idea was actually theatre for area. There was funny stuff that happened to, though later we would like about eight or nine months into this, was crazy, like you do a play the same play, you know for each of a week
remember that airline months in being ready, make my entrance of the door and like having this like heart, stopping fear going like somebody get me a script. I don't know any of my lines. Some will get me. I don't know anymore and they would open the door and it would just come out of your mouth and you'd like some reason. fear would just wash over me that I didn't know to So long with? but, although, like also We because it gets surreal like you, do the same thing, we on the couch like talking to someone need, is a line and then you go like. Did I just or was that the Matinee result. three weeks, yeah completely surreal. Yeah they're, talking about, like you know, between the manias and like doing a play for a year, no relax yeah, it's just too clean
those are funny, even when things are going well, you're, just your brain, just sort of like no. No, it's not going to be okay with everything. You've done this for eight months. It's going to be okay. Get me. A script gave me a script Let me look at it. Yeah god has Wait so it was that, and now is your big theatre break yeah yeah, that was, that was a big that was a big break yeah. So we did that for like eight months umbro and then like five months in london, yeah, oh wow, well, yeah that was kind of cool and the medicine working and everything. This is where I get all all guy there and I've had a couple. I've had a couple episodes since that year. but it's been when I've tampered with. This idea yeah exactly and that endless shame sort of that I've dealt with throughout the years about it, about being on it yeah and just being Now we are when the sickness taxi. It's like any meaningful self.
Yeah, you don't you don't be your full self and also like you, there's even more in cities, ones which is like I, it's not that I completely disagree. The pharmaceutical companies or are conspiring garotters near what the like they're trying to get. You dig lifelong learning right better, you better, you know also look I gotta say even in representation in movies. There very irresponsible I remember being really pissed off at that movie a beautiful mind because, like he, basically at the end of the irish, decides that he doesn't need navigation and I can just control the voices and he can just kind of print them off to this guy's house and like with things on the wall yeah. But it's like you know there are these or there are all sort of these images and movies of like people going off their medications and finally being like liberating, and I think that, like the ast representation. I've ever seen of it is like a homeland like ca, and I think that's really sophisticated interpretation of it where you can be sort of brilliant and highly functional and all this stuff, and then also you can have these things.
You're not be responsible. In that way, will that's. The thing is like he had, the pharmaceuticals are big business, but there there have been advances in western medicine that iran aid white better for people who have problems in her sick, correct, but my my east village conspiracy theory shine. Raiment idea, I talked to me and those weak moments and says like that, just trying to catch. about, like you know, astoria, a story where, where some guy as if a sponsor where he said like at the beginning of sobriety, like hey man, their brainwash you're me yet my goes you I call. Maybe your brain you wish and of ads exactly right, better exactly like. So what do you feel better? Everyone likes you more there, but I get I get their struggle with that. You know because I've been like even with like fucking stands united
you don't have to go in like I have high cholesterol and then there's this whole camp of people like no, you don't need to stand. Just do diet so, like I do diet and I can't get it down to the genetic component to it and then or how they are not really sure how important questions and I went to a cardiologist right. Who said that you take me? No more plaque might come. You might not. You know might not ever get worse, the black cardiologist said that, to me You want me not to the degree, and you have been looking around the internet. Everybody's got everybody's got an opinion. Yeah everybody's got an opinion in the tribe, but but my butt, but like no one, wants to be a medicine. You know you know, of course right so that I mean you know, I'm good. I can fix it yeah, but but we have to realize, like you know, sometimes medicines, good yeah. You know there's no polio yeah.
There's this weird thing with like holistic yeah. She came down like the way you can drink, how much st john's wort. Can you take it exactly yeah he'll? Do it do it? I know and the is like all that stuff connected to, because I for a while, like this is funny thing was I after like when I got there, conspiracy theories. I was like look. I'm going to be super response via I'm, going to I'm going to do yoga every day, like there's a component of this there's a component of this that is psychophysical like if I can have a steady baba, and I did that and of course, like you know they had another like episode, I was like because it's linked to this idea, like emi part of the id madison generals that consciousness. It's all our collective idea of sanity right right like so. If we If I was on a mountain top with a bunch of like you know, other crazy. We have in this way a mighty. Ok, he added the intervals of sanctioned american society. Sure like there are things in our society that are crazy. He, like we all agree on that we dealt with
not yet get it. We eat cows, dogs, we don't grazing dogs me, you can hold all right, but he I'm right, but If you wanted to hold the space of the guy that you can't function. Space. Yes, occasionally hospitalized! You can do that exactly exactly and I was like I'd rather have an acting career like and like be able to like sit down and do a podcast. His podcast will be funny if I wasn't yeah yeah cause you come back with. Let me know I'll get your new number and talk about elves on the side of the he decided. Not to do that. Medicine will talk about the shadow government, then we'll get into it I'll, bring you some cocaine as well. Oh boy, that's gonna be a big day. Huh. Just enter and our careers right live on the air. Well, we are raising their we're gonna guys. I feared that it now and then we just did
appear here. I did you hear that thing, there's ada margo, where they beat each other to death in that studio. Apparently Did you have another episode as bad as the original one, not as bad or not as bad? So stranger things I have to assume that you did not anticipate to be a rockstar at comic. Con know like a forty year old man, you know what I mean, I don't. I will never money to lay maybe advantages but yeah when you hit forward. You're kind of like I mean when I hit like, I think when I hit thirty five, yes kind of like that, that idea is over but be something a sort of interesting and he had no idea right. You turning out a bite you liked. Would you like the role when you,
I mean I read the script. The pilot script was like. I love that pilot script was amazing, yeah and I actually didn't think I'd get cast, and then I wound up getting cast yeah big netflix, show sure like yeah and then- and I that didn't want to take a chance on me like, but did they really know that it was going to be big before yeah? I mean? How does anyone know any? I don't think they knew, but still the thing at the time was based on a comic or anything original original, but I didn't know that I didn't know that netflix was doing that many series like how it seems like they're doing everything, but at the time before calling big deal right, but when we are shooting it about four episodes, then I thought yet. No one go I know who I either like yeah. This is there nah, I'm not good, and it's not good and it didn't help. I like you, know like we were all just like You know we work, you really horrible you're in a bubble. Nobody cared, you shoot it. It Lana! Oh yeah. I like the kids like is cleared the balance between the kids and
and you know, like all the other shit yeah yeah are the the kids you know cause you gotta have that you are right, but they got some good kids yeah the areas so ok so far, as a junior shooting at you like. Oh my god, I just thought it was like looking through a long line of failures that was like sort of not not not not tremendous. I mean I'm being a little bit hyperbolic, but there were like I dunno. If you've had these projects, but like You have a project where everybody is like patent cells on the by an analysis they come up to the right. Your life can achieve. Dry yeah. I've had that happen to me, I'm ready from what for about like ten years that you know I shot this movie, commissioner road, our member, like all of us, I m of as a c s good, bye but I remember that being like us, everyone sitting around and being like that after brokeback back it was after over. Here we are smaller party airlines, but as a bit of a body I just didn't it has had. No like
I live in a mindless studio, barman, yet additional errors should I bring being like mere. We don't really like him and I was wow like it'll. Never it'll, never change. I want to be kind of that guy who can occasionally get by and make money and like do theater like I do feel like at home in theater yet, but we are, but then I got to so when I was shooting that, like my expectations are extreme, but what about the black mass and idea even that it's like a supporting role like your indeed Denzil movie, like nobody, really cares varying dagmar right right, I mean like nobody really cares. I thought there they day, people within the industry. The people are like, hey did a great job or occasion. Some got count gesture, but it wasn't like that. Character actor you can be sure that they are, but even less in that it wasn't like. I don't live in hollywood. I live in your right. It was kind of like you dip in now. Ok out it wasn't, like concentrated, were like throwing me offers and peace.
We're, like sure, really want to be in their movies right. It was kind of like when we haven't cast the bar call him in yeah, we'll see if he does a good job and maybe so sure you are ready for the strange wow. I didn't think it would ever happen, but I was fine with that, like I was living in new york and new orleans, so I was doing and my face would always been places. there was even a moment when, like I had audition for black mass yeah and I got offered a another play in new york, there was a big deal sort of thing and I thought to myself, like I thought to myself. I was like you know new york will, I think, the new york theater there's more of a community where I hollywood you're, just a commodity like if you do well, if people I give you commodity and money and heightened community habit of your movies make money. We hire. You learn law but ere. They don't like milk airs where's, like in in new york theatre, there's more of a sense of like we want to see you develop as an artist yeah you can do. We want to support you, even if you everything you do is right.
So I just I remember like even in black mass having this moment, resignation and you know how he was not going to care about me, samba and kind of thinking about giving that up. Yeah. Ultimately, I took it yeah. Well yeah. It was a some drama around that, but I be able to really did it, but if it's always have his way to the high, what has been like, I can go there make some money here, but like I'll, never really put my heart in hardness and grown really cynical given even doing those movies which are felt like. I was doing like good okay but it wasn't like when I go to work. I was just very cynical as israeli yeah? What do you want me to there like? Carry a gun like run around like okay with you, I mean I I had grown where I for better for a goal. Sure, because I was like a lot of shots, yeah rads of shots- and I was like I just Don'T- have it and also look weird for me cause I don't. I don't think I'm like that actor, but I do look at my face sometimes on film and I'm like. Oh god, like I mean like do you know what I mean like what
ugly, I mean you see like double chins and you You know we're width of the face sure they yield weird with the face problem. You thought you have idiocy craddock. They igniting out that you as a kind of like yours, and you just lie there are times Where, where I go the bathroom, I can't look in the mirror teeth like I do think I ain't I go p. I do they languid myself. I do the same thing where an I was working and there was somebody somebody, whose helping me design my apartment, like we could put a big mirror here. I don't want meares, I don't want any mirrors, well in the bathroom. I was looking debatable, we'll talk about it. We talk about it later in the day, though, I'm hiding from myself as as I walk by the shower, you know there's that play no exit by jean paul sartre and the one of the the things they're in hell and the one of the things that there's no mirrors
and I was like how is that hell or no body image issues? Hey that's great but anyway yeah. So I've grown very cynical. So this was another one of these opportunities where, like my expectations, were extremely low, yeah and then we're in there shooting it yeah. I do think, like I look like owl and I big like an m sc, and so when it before it came out. I was scared and then I was he doing a play. guy, who is on a very successful tv show right and before it came Like a week, three weeks war came out, there was no ads in new york, no ads. buses, they lost hope already and then a week before him, no ads anywhere. No ads are ok, okay, well, I talked to him and I was again there's no ads that he was like they're burying it they're trying to bury it- and I was oh, my god, my
one var ninja and like they're burying minds now and then it came out and it was like, as guys! Look you never know it, but no one has only to get behind yeah but also like what, like, I don't know what they did for glow, but claim now in hindsight, that they did on purpose exactly we did. It was a brilliant minor campaign where, within africa or people have odor ship of the show, because they discover It- they're for and it is kind of brilliant when you think about it. If that is the case, because that is what happened right, but I like it just be looking at that. That would be a fine sort of like thing to believe if they didn't actually bury other shove, like you I did actually leave many shows hanging that they actually produce. That would be a great junior executive, there wasn't tons of evidence to the contrary. Yeah leggett, leggett, detective. What's going on there,
no, but either way they do produce so much yet so wrong shit is going to have to find its end and this the kind of thing you know It is in the realm of things that that have this and activate, if the, if thing activates that audience if it appeal that community, then you know it lives there forever. There are people that are the sure, creating your back stories to things that you have mystery. The question then fiction all that stuff and The comic like for some reason the genre shows are those shows that like stick around and have Yeah followings or yeah and the you know, and it's sort of like in fantasy in and of itself, though it's never been my thing, though it seems to becoming my thing a little more and Ultimately, what is in fantasy, but but you know young people give very loyal to them in a year in the show states guardian of their. Therefore it yeah you're surprised by it I know here we're still at you freaking out that they're burying it.
yeah, I'm backstage and he's like you know, and then he his career he's the one yeah. No, he used the words to look like reviews came out too, and he will probably be like him. You know respected shown some way, but people aren't going to watch There are tons of those shows. I met with european. I like their louis shows, where bodies out good yeah, I don't watch. How can you watch everything of thanks is just too many and and look. I think again, you might not be very eyes. Those covers age, but I so believe the show is brilliant, not only on a sci fi level, but it has so much heart in, like soul, it was like we had some reviews. Come out for second season that were like kind of negative but they were like. The reviews are so funny like cuz. I like
the shit out of it from beginning to end immediately. But what show you do they ass hard to do, and also there that the the the strange hume, component that not only the kids bring to a certain degree, but that you in and writer bring your having had the lives and having had you know, do you like she brings something you know just by virtue. she is, but she's acting the fuck out of this year. And- and you know you guys have both have had your problem ams that that are very upfront in the in the first season and and in devastating, you're between you, you ve grown up, serve dispositions and care the shortcomings as the characters. You know, I'm not. Are you doing a job with it, but you you're flawed people yeah no end. I ended the weird sort of new I meant of these overly bright kids that you know you you, transcend when you fall into the hole
in a way that transcends genre in that way, just sort of still a human. The human element is so strong that you, you know you're going to you're not going to be like you know what what are those snakes exactly and why can you just step behind me? I started going right the little the way It's a great question, though, now that I think about it. Jesus knows when the last time I saw the snake there was something laying eggs in the kit. What are they doing in myself, but because you're you're hooked into hop- and you are not like where's the egg, laying how many more of these fucking wives the rest is unwilling to go with it because we have yet on the right to be, but that you're right that's an example of character, because you care about the characters. You pay much more attention to their reaction right up. They run into the actual sobs your yes you're, my gun I can inform I'm right at the like. The last thing I watched last night was will
seizure because, oh yes, now feeling the evil of the thing go. Yeah yeah, like I'm like you know now, like you know, are we ever going to save this kid does? we'll just going. We please get this time lag report gives so much. there actually was. This is so funny because I speak a punch you so so they at one point you know point I talked to them but as they develop go in the room, say I've gotta go about ideas and at one point I had said to them, cause in season. One eye punch a lot of people in the face here, and it was like one of my favorite things about the character. He has a harrison for type, quality, where, when he gets confused, he just like punches somebody and in season two I had no punches and the like. I don't punch anybody in the whole season and they were like we're going to give you a really good pine tree, and I was like what is that No it's gonna be grazing out there. What is it? What is in their like will when he goes into a seizure here on the football field. Like nobody can get him out of here,
better seizure? I think that's a terrible idea. I loved it, but it was so crazy. I was like yeah, you can't have a buddy like the kid is a literal punching bag. At that point like what else can we do to will byers, like he's being the operative punch him in the face, because that's what he needs? Yeah he's been beat up in two dimensions: yeah they'll shoot that poor guy as for getting up or either, but like I'm, going to finish it up and so you're in season two. Now, when does hellboy start, we shot it? You did yeah. We started in this fall. How long did that take like four months really year we'll get you so he had in Bulgaria. She had a year in the make up
This is all happening. It's all happening now. How cynical you are now now about the movie. Business has to get em, so grumpy agonized they'll be gravity hopper. I know that all permanent we did. We had the dinner yet with india. So, roaming like you, pass the reins onto your little bedroom and it was not a great situation its he was like they did to him and tor yeah right and they are they, I think, wanted to make their third trilogy, but I think a lot of issues. Mob and budget to big, adding that they took a lot of time. They waited too long right, and so I think that they, you know that there was they wanted to do. Something else wanted. different with fear, and then they came to me. It was a very different concept, very different idea, and there was initially some bluster around it. I think everybody was like kind of got it when RON got it yeah and came, and so yeah we had dinner and he was like he was just really cool.
Well. You know, I think that the one thing that's a little weird is like you know. Everybody now asks him about it and yeah he's annoyed at chat tour, and so he said some things on twitter, was like just don't ask me anymore, and I think that's why you don't ask him any more, but I he did sort of you know he likes me. He was very kind to me. He was like good. Do it he's a nice guy and he knows her business yeah exactly exactly and any and you like that, you think it's a meagre moon! I do yeah. I knew and were you able to bring some of that to your flaws and harder voice? Of course, underneath like pounds and pounds of pathetic self hating guy that doesn't like mirrors yeah, I mean it's right up my alley, who you're going to call me: hey guys, guys looked at a mirror and a long and and where are you dumb, you're shooting stranger things? Now now we start in yeah, we started like a month the third season, a season three. Now how many?
you see up front. We usually see four to six. Oh really, yeah of the eight zone. That's good! for you, because you like to know how at least something's going to happen. I want to know the whole. I want to know the whole arc yeah, and so I actually tell you are they done? Writing do know? Oh the general year arc they are, but to me it's even important like in terms of how of plays out cause. I do like to structure stuff upfront like if I know that the guy going to talk a lot in the end? Laugh, do you know I mean like there's a lot of things about an actual script that are different than a pitch right, but I, but I do know it's kind of going to happen. I'm excited about it. Really, it's really good yeah, it's I mean, the ideas are amazing. And what with poor will going to be dragged to the center of the earth this season we had try to completely reputable park You know that the character that have the most sympathy or though the one that gives me of them, I have the buyers wall phone. Wall mounted phone. Every season,
boy, you see you haven't got they never gets like me. I of throwing it in serbia. Will buyers look like Nathan at the forefront. Well, look man, I think we covered it. I think we did good yeah. That was great. I feel a little buzzed yeah I had a good time. I had a good thanks for coming, thank that was exciting, no yeah sure was Absolutely it was absolute. It was our dimension I mention. I should mention that my friend lynn, Shelton's movie outside in, is now available on netflix. You should watch out with the dew plus the J do class and Falco great movie, I should watch that on the netflix and also, I guess I'll play guitar. I've gotten to compliments about a guitar sounds in here, not my playing necessarily but the sound
What is the
Transcript generated on 2022-07-19.