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251- Negative Space: Logo Design with Michael Bierut

2017-03-14 | 🔗

Logos used to be a thing people didn’t really give much thought to. But over the last decade, the volume and intensity of arguments about logos have increased substantially. A lot of this is just the internet being the internet. … Continue reading →

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is ninety nine percent, invisible, I'm roman Mars. Logos used to be a thing that people really didn't give much thought to more or less DEC. The volume and intensity of arguments about logos have increased, substantially, This is just the internet been the internet. But look over designs in particular, attract a lot of hyperbolic vitriol. I was wondering what this felt like to design so to one of my favorites Michael baby. It is an idea, medalist and partner at the international design, consultancy, Centigram, where's, working, its brain identity, logos, book design and packaging at one time talking with them. I just thought I put our conversation out as it don't ever, so I hope you dig it many of you might be familiar with the logos we discuss, but if you need a little help jogging your memory, this is a great episode of his into as you scroll that the images on this episodes web page at night, I m p I dot org. Michael says that, for a very long time now,
when understood what his job as a graphic designer really meant, but recently that changed, I've just now a lot of times. People will say. Also do you do logos or, though outright ask me what I think of some logo this in the news, This is entirely new and kind of the startling and on Nerving What is the most recent logo they have asked you about? when asked about your own logo? Oh yeah, oh yeah! No, I was, I guess. If they didn't know, oh no absolutely I was back in early twenty fifteen. I was engaged in a secret project which was to design a logo for the campaign as of yet undeclared candidate for President Hillary Clinton and yet launched. There was a huge amount of attention to this logo, which became ubiquitous, I think the age or the arrow in it and at one point before I was
widely known that I was a design or what I got an email from a magazine saying that they were convening a bunch of designers to I wanted to say how they would have designed the logo kettle. It was so horrible and so on, I would like to know? How would you design it if you could have done anything and I sort of said. Are you now? now passes suit. Tell me a bit more how they Hilary logo came about. It used to be that people would run for political. Office, and they didn't understand that they needed a logo, and maybe they didn't need a logo on Burma. Obama changed all that in twenty. Oh He ran and are the he had this now famous o four Obama in Blue, with sort of red, Stripes leading into the centre of the o, with the old kind of symbolizing setting are probably more likely arising sun and
that symbol was so ubiquitous both and twenty eight. The fact that he one kind of are sealed the deal it appeared over the next eight years, representing his candidacy, We'll go on to brand, I assume is foundation. Is library in his post residential activities, with that kind of established as a benchmark for political campaigns by the time when he sixteen rolled, run every candidate one way or another had won back logo in very early on in twenty fifteen beginning of the year, I got a call from a team that was consulting with Hillary Clinton. They asked me whether I would volunteer my services to create a logo for Secretary Clinton and What we wanted to do was exploit some of the characteristics that people had come to appreciate, I think, possibly by accident, about the Obama logo, one of which was that it could be adapted into different forms. You couldn't you can kind of white customize it for different groups of voters or differ
locations, and so we have this idea like what have we had a symbol that you could change every day? If you want it, you could make it celebrate. Algae BT rights one day and celebrate veterans and next day and then modified for Memorial Day the day after that are hollow in the day after that they require something. Very simple, so we can have this very simple age with an arrow going through it kind of symbolizing. We thought that the candidate was moving the country forward and also giving us away to kind of point that age at other things, meaning that Hilary is for or veterans or for algae BT rights for me, and it just kind of way prove to be a really interesting, malleable. Widely system, in the end, interesting because it saw this sort of device, for one thing: no one really votes people who vote for logos, a boat for candidates neighbour, and they both for people knew they think will improve their wives and some actual way, not people in Africa
she logos bud. You know, often it some tangible symbol crystallize in the voting public's mind, you know the essence what a candidate is- and I think just as you know, your perhaps had bad h with an arrow in and by the time It was election day. You know I was seeing it everywhere, and certainly you know at the convention centre. Jabba's convention centre that night for the what was meant to be the victory party in people had an embroidered on their jackets in our temporary tattoos on their faces. It was every Where was interesting and at the same time her opponent had a red hat? What's with the slogan on the front about you know, and that in a way was a logo for that Canada see? So I think there is the substance of what people are promising and there's sort of the tangible bit of short hand that kind of sums up what that promises.
Then. I think that on the commercial world, that's what symbols have always done in your manta kind of ascribe all sorts of higher transcendent values that things like a basketball, sneakers and soda soda pops in Owen, instead the transcendent values or then athletic achievement and refreshment respectively, and somehow devices like Swash is or dynamic ribbons or whatever you want to save our kind of meant to be the holders of that, meaning that is then kind of reinforced by advertising and by hopefully, Actual first hand, experience with the product is interested I never really thought of the hat bein a logo. Could you sort of pull apart some of its qualities? as to what its convened you in White Works
I think what was interesting about Donald Trump Red make Amerika great hat was that one it's very it's very populous sort of thing is clearly not something one associates with care slowly lead singer who were intellectuals, although I know I of baseball caps and where baseball comes out yeah and end. So maybe I'm not only now for all from Ohio. After all, but I mean it, it's sort of aid, it's definitely not suited for black tie or business attire is meant to be sort of on the kind of thing you associated, maybe with them. You know with hard working salted the earth, Americans the fact that its red is sort of making a really clear say meant about Red America. I'd say and the slogan make him a great again, all caps. You know cap locked yelling, actually I think kind of reminded people of the candidates, own delivery,
of those words and I think, most importantly, it wasn't an underground thing. It was very visible view sort of war, a supporter you put that thing, right on your head, you now and of his like. If someone's look at your face, they would look at that have made read those words in a wearable brands like that short of time. Tools are sort of a bit in our big commitment you make to kind of advertising someone else's cause, and so I assume that he had buttons and stickers and science and stuff like that. But that hat, which is meant to be worn, was like really calling on people to personally identify with. I can no really unequivocal wine, so the Hilary age with an arrow logo is released and people react to it. The way they will react to any logo right now. It is really active discussion. Online whenever anyone is done It is also in the context of this political campaign where she got An unbelievable many criticism, no matter what she did. Remember people reacting to the eight with the arrow released.
Only some of it quite negative. Were you prepared for that in any way the what had taken me back and when I should have seen coming. Is that logo, which I am personally thought was and still think was really good? I mean it was exactly the one that we wanted the campaign to use we are confident that over the course of the campaign will be you this in all sorts of ways, I would win people over, and I think that was largely proven out. I mean, I think, by the time November, came around if you sort of way went on the pants suit nation Facebook page. See a million different expressions of at all home, grown and grass roots and really really fawn, and I remember saying and while we were working while we were looking all the different options. Logo. Remember saying you know, I want something that so simple that a first greater could do it with construction paper. Elmer's glue and Canada
answers you know, I don't want a fancy thing. You needs no software programs to create. I wanted something that was as easy to draws a heart or a piece sign or us smiley face. You know something that could be that ubiquitous and I think we got pretty close to it as a very simple piece of into private, collars now, really, though, what happens when something that is launched put out there in too, you know the uncaring world people are treated as a it's open end. Essentially at that moment works against. It is treated as a roar, shark blood and everyone projects, things on to write and This happens with sports teams that happens with colleges and universities. But I think I underestimated to the degree to which what happened with the political candidate, where Sir When, as well known as Secretary Clinton, you know has there's a lot of people have
it is bottle already and then suddenly there is convenient thing upon which to reject opinions I may have already had or opinions are they to sour, clever or, whatever was in so suddenly. You know when I kind of marble, sometimes I'd say it's just some straight line, some ninety degree angle, some forty five re angles and two primary collars. It doesn't mean you know it sits on people would say. Well what does it mean? I said walls and age because that's the candidates and because of age, it's an air because she wants to move the country forward and its red white and blue because of Amerika That's really the truth as what it meant, and yet you know I was. I was gonna taken, back when I shouldn't have been actually and I have to command the campaign who were resolute about their commitment to it and, in fact ray They brought her to wife and made it really saying over the subsequent months now,
In contrast, there is a notorious logo that was unveiled flan. Donald Trump identified is running made in the form of governor pants and they had it Tp Legged sure that a lot of people thought they saw unsavory things in and made fun of it and animated it and in ways that our current salacious and it was like it. It's just was made to disappear and are kind of blanket. You know under its own veil, I'll go and you really are committed to it. The worst thing you can do is sort of blank and sort of say. Ups forget that were making I go away to forget. You ever saw that I think of you. If you stick who had just act like you really mean it eventually, the world will get used to it and then eventually, if you wait long, people will be outraged. If you try to redesign it into something else, do you mean For the first time there was a public fight about alone were normal people like got involved, so
for years kind of, like logo. Redesigned was very esoteric thing. Where people like me, who had gone to art school, to learn to be graphic designers would sort of say. Did you see they change the? U Ps logo in the lower for you pay delivery trucks- and I know who designed the original logo I know- did redesign. I know what kind of things about at every sort of life- would talk about a cythera like little chat rooms on websites where people went to comment for days on the pros and cons of things like that, the first one I remember going public was the gap flowed, a redesign of its logo Puritan wine on wine and suddenly someone said, oh, my god, the gap, the other retail store, the gap is gonna redesigning logo and to the surprise of the gap in all these. Consumers started getting like really agitated about and started saying it know save.
The old gap logo in our this new, almost ridiculous. It looks in our usually the criticism that laws against logos is that my four year old could design that New Logan eyes. You and I actually think that's a good thing low. I like, because it is actually but most people they sort of seem like logos, our sophisticated things that need to be designed with complicated equipment by skilful people and they also assume that a lot of money was spent on logos two's how much with someone paid to do this thing you know, so I remember that the gap had sort of what this logo, quote around out there. That was not the blue Box with the highly condensed Sarah flutters J P that were all familiar with, but it was of lower case held that echo with this superimposed. Faded, blue square cannot put off of centre on the letters and for some reason I just really aggravated people even I was surprised by that- and people ask my opinion. Other north, I remember normal person ever ask my opinion about a logo before, but that became
there are some started happening more and more in this in the years to follow so something about social media, some about the internet kind of his enabled all the salmon and they definitely blinked on that. Oh yeah, I may lay sort of young, I think they denied they ever meant. Did you know that was just something we're experimenting with? Don't worry, we ve heard our loyal customers loud and clear, and never fear we champion changing the gap. Logo What is interesting is and of course, that's a logo doing exactly what is supposed to do. I mean when, People are being sold logos. There told that they will be the receptacle of all the passion that the consumers have for our brand, which is this kind of weird. Hard to express thing otherwise, but now all this- and this will be the focal object upon which all that war is going to be aimed and naturally then the good customers think that they own the
how about you know and then, when the company like you now has the temerity to change it without asking once permission. Suddenly the customers who have been told this in a love. This thing I was in his change ottoman without warning and they get like Freetown. Do you think that general design awareness in the public has major job easier or harder? Oh, I think it's you. It's made it easier and it's made it more fun. I would say I've always thought that what I do, what I do is the most important thing in the world. But I always thought it was important devoted my wife to it in its gratifying to hear people notice it, and I don't think we can ask people to notice our work and thing it's worth talking about and then presume to tell people- but you can only say positive things about how I think. Even I mean if its people talk about Europe's uninformed people tribal, yet inform people talking about the environment. People like, I think, negative com
are always more fun to read than positive ones or rave. Review is a little dull to read, but I mean I've never had anyone forward MIA of positive restaurant review. You know like, on the other hand, if it's the restaurant for the New York Times takes a restaurant apart. You know the relish with which that writer will describe. Every dish is just a sight to behold and and I think you know so beautiful. So I think you know its criticism as much more fun to write and more fun to read and unless we want to go back to having no one noticed what we're doing and pretending like it doesn't matter at all. We should just get used to criticism, and I I have that's for sure I mean is that method of dealing with it. One of our partners- and I Michael guarantee- and I redesign method of for one of our partners and I Michael guarantee- and I redesign the logo for the big ten football conference and it needed to be redesigned because that was called the big time. But it had eleven teams in it and they are this club.
Her logo, their combined the words big ten. Were it not with a number eleven kind of hiding by the tea for town, so is sort of like you would Simon, he read ten and eleven, while looking at which I just thought was you know, it's a neat solution to a problem which actually shouldn't be focused on. You know Let's not celebrate this weird disconnect between than the name of the conference in the number of actual teams that are in and they were going to twelve teams and not even more teams of the whole thing was they decided to kind of just come up with a logo that wasn't based on the actual number teams in the conference, which was called the big ten. Conference, so we did basically a logo that was made out of the latter is Biagi for big and than we did a treatment of the eye and big and the g and big, so it had a double reading, as the number tat so when that was unveiled, oh, I actually got voice. Male about from people saying. I can't believe you what's wrong with you. People, like those are the loyal fans, and I remember someone at the Beijing conference
the slogan launch sort of telling me you know this is the, It's the passion that kind of makes him sit in those seats when the weather is terrible and you know, and the same password is going to make them, take it personally when you put it with the logo fuck. What happens is one people get over the shock. If you can hold on tight they'll, get use to the new logo, and if it's any good at all, it will soon be the beloved big time while thou and people will sort of white, then subject the next time its change as long as people who care about the big time they care about it. Every time is change, and I have to admit, were entering a stage now where I have worked with clients on doing while goes and doing updates the logos where I can tell the worst thing that could happen is of no one. Reacted at all, The best thing would be at every analog it, but the the worse it would be of no one noticed there like happiness or white. Take the outrage just because, while people really care about us, it's easy
people who care about a sports team or university. It's a little bit harder to make people care about a retail bran, but people dill deuces feel very faithful to retail stores, for they put those garments right in their bodies, and I think, as I say, low, but harder to make people care about finance, someone situations and more abstract entities. Apply I'm more kind of distant role in our lives, but all of them now I'm will get comments on logo updates, and I think that you just you that you use to sort of whether it is you just sort of think well. People are going to react to age strongly, sometimes but the strength that reaction is Ashley directly related to the depth of feeling they have about the particular brand that you're representing. So it's a little bit bad news equally good news, I have you ever had a one on one interaction with a person like a book I fanned deeply enraged, and, and how did it go,
what will this is what's interesting with those buckeye vans. For instance, I had this policy of responding the wee wee they found out. Somehow it came out there we had done an people found our emails. I started getting forward. These emails had had a lot over what are you were out of there? How much you charge? You should be ashamed of yourself or you know my father, who is class of twenty three is spinner. His grave or whatever I'm sort of. And I would always right back in this really kind of courteous way, saying one. It's always disappointing for worker and something to know their people? Don't? Like it, I can only hope that you over time come to at least get used to it ideally come to light, much as we do, or at the very least not have it bother you quite as much, but I know oh that the team values the strong feelings you have about them and, as a fellow fan, that's the thing that we all really felt
I would write something like that and then I really meant to. I really meant every element of that and then about two thirds of the people. I would write you would me back in this chastened sort of town where They say: oh uh, thanks, I'm sorry I was going over the top a little bit. I still don't like it, but I was happy her explanation and I'm sorry. I kind of way fire that off too, in the heat of the moment, there's somebody one I apologise, but clearly the one thing that was there was really obvious. Was that the thing that really bothered them the mouse was their sense that giant impersonal corporate forces were arbitrarily changing things that they cared about personally, with no thought of who they were as fans and what the team was or anything like that and the idea that there was a human being with a name and a boys who might share of their feelings in any way whatsoever.
Tell if it wasn't with your picture and what did did some very satisfying target if he just think somewhere up there. You know horrible people are messing with something that I liked and now it's ruined. I hate you, you know and then I've always are members and shows up in person it's a little get kind of, though nothing quite mean that so this idea and again and again my go. I'm not trying to convert these people on disliked ivory. I mean I sincerely feel bad when I design some areas, so I M not trying to make people mad. I want people to like the thing I design and I'm sort of almost always convinced at the moment. Eventually, if the thing I've designed it is well crafted and is really appropriate for its purpose fits the team fits the audience eventually, come to. When I play the same, roller lies at the thing did that it replaced and and woe goes are interesting because I design a lot of things I design say book covers. Let's say covered as one moment of truth when you're buying a book in a bookstore you
walked on the island it to catch your eye, and then you think o this looks interesting. You pick it up and you decide to buy it and your experience thereafter, is basically with the book itself and the role of the cover played. Isn't that consequential low Also there one the few things that appreciate and value as their used. If you picture really simple logos at our iconic on the american commercial landscape. Now, while the target logo say or the Nike Swash, these are things that you now a four year old. Could design are really simple: looking have no inherent meaning, while the target logo has a meeting that are that he will find exasperating. In our view, if your hiring some fancy design from two to a logo for company call target, they come back and they say we came up with some
really great here it is it's a target has like how long did it take? You know what I mean you think about think about how much they ve been able to do with the simplicity that mark thing about how they been about, maybe manipulate, very simple form, some mean all sorts of different things, and I would argue that that logo now regards they paid for back in the sixties. When those commission it's worth a hundred times as much now. What is your lease favorite aspect of the heated discussion? Around logos, her redesigned when they happen publicly accords the type criticism where you just like. Oh that's, nice, around you know if you design something new people for some reason, are so desperate to reconcile it with some and there are already familiar with that they'll say: oh. That looks exactly like this other thing. Sometimes depending on their frame of mind. I'll say that looks exactly this other thing that could be something vaguely smutty like you know,
male or female anatomy, or something like that is like some answer that goes around and no more or what you design. I they have. This very human need to kind of turn, abstract shapes into something figurative. That means something in really I mean. What logos are meant to be? Are empty vessels into which means he has poured and I meaning when they work right is the meaning that your first hand, experience with the thing that's represented by the logo is, and I think, When someone just says. Oh that looks like tell us a german failure to me. Did you see it? You know that sort of is tough. Also, I've never actually can it is all the way, but if you her practice in graphic design or fear young graphic designer out there out. One bit of advice I have is, if you like, working on a logo. That is like a say us clause, I've, you know it's a gm Patrick Logo, with us, with the with a four part kind of thing, that kind of has us a rotation, angular rotational aspect.
If someone says that kind of reminds me of a swastika, you will just you know, that's a signal. You should patience that that logo will not be presented to anyone, but just put it away actually that sort of his life that has close Emmy. You can say it looks like a penis and like you can actually get over that, but I mean Lois. I was just like really. I remember I was going to a meeting with the two, a client, and I am sure that we have little time what I did a lower, really white and sort of had these kind of geometric characterising sedative ending, and I looked at him in our now and then I was going to win the additives they presentation. I need it like an I'm. U somebody help me just carry the thing to the meeting and not even being the meanest carry me in there. It was like an inch and the intern said this was what look like a swastika to you, and I, Member like almost like bursting into two
errors and say now you ve ruined everything I go in the meeting. I said this one clients as well as working. Are you see what it looks like rain? I'm like? Oh yeah, I'm sorry. What was I thinking? So I guess I hate that Mouse. If someone says it looks like an emblem of the most evil political and cultural forests of the twentieth century, that's not good and I just want to show you that there was another swastika. Was this perfectly abstract, harmless and even count a benevolent symbol for centuries it was a spiritual insignia that kind of as a want of application in eastern culture and then God hijacked by one guy failed artist and his friends and they turned an inter what they turned it into an it. Just goes to show you amazingly notices it. That's a good piece of criticism can obviously only I anomaly you d, you do want us, I mean you do when you're doing these things. You do want to say now. What does this look like? What is it
mind you are, and then these days, particularly abstract, lower designers have the same problem that people coming up with names for products to, or you know where it's not dinner, were all the good names were taken, all the good. You are also taken and frequently all the good kind of simple abstract. Geometric logos are taken so really hard to find one that has been done already when you do these things. Yes, it is you do these legal searches, you try to make sure that no one else has used it for you can find one this nice and simple that is available. It is kind of like Almighty feel, like you discovered, a new continental, my god when applying- biogas and declares of king have you ever seen a new logo redesign logo and over
I had the most change of heart about it like a rule, strong reaction and then cut him began to love it. Or do you remember anything like that? Were your point of view changed either for the more positive or for the more negative, partly because of the way I've been trained and for having done this for so many years. My snap judgments about logos is, probably more refined that it should be so there are ones that I saw when their brand new that I didn't like much then, and I still downward but a lot of times. Even if I don't like it, I sort of get what they are going for. There's somebody it's just outright. I just plain: don't like them here and now, York. We had the long stay
logo. The Metro museum of our was replaced with a logo that replace day a drawing up an m with the letters with letter saying the mat and a lot of people like at partly because it was new and replacing something that their use to and partly because I I would concede it was a really. Oh, it really idiosyncratic and weird looking at the same time. I was thinking out, but if you go to the met there was a big, complicated, idiosyncratic place, you go there and get lost its like really labyrinthine inside. It has so much stuff there. They try to represent this thing with something that could look like it was for pharmaceutical companies coming clean and simple wouldn't be doing justice. It need something that kind of feels complicated and idiosyncratic and specific. So I remember I looked at it I see even now, when I see it, it still come. Tell me a back. Sometimes I was used to the old one like everyone else was, but I can recognize that
long run. I think it well. If they stick with it, I think it all work and come to be, as beloved as its predecessor was when you say that you plain don't like something just like in general. What are those things that you played out? My guess is awake, articulate those qualities. I mean I hate to say it, but just like everyone else, I look at something and say: oh, my goodness, that's rather ugly, isn't it you know, and like you know, I mean some, I mean, for instance, if you want to talk about another another design. The design for the twenty twelve Olympics in London were widely criticised, and I think right on long term agreements, it to criticise logos. I can really see why people criticise, because I think that that was I got a darn funny, looking logo
others like really chunky and jagged. He encountered kooky looking in, but again I have to admit I sort of God it. It's like. You know, like a presidential campaign logo, it's sort of all it. It had the mark a moment in time. It wasn't me designed to be this enduring thing that last forever, it just had a kind of way symbolise what was happening in that specific place. At a specific time, and would be further associated with all these have feats of athleticism. That would be the actual real experience of the event, not just the logo, and so, in a way, the ugly summing, idiosyncratic and specific could come to a stand for all those other things. However, I still think it's ugly justly just like ugly, it sort of one gamely it's like weird working, I couldn't. I could never Quite I after midnight, I personally and privately need to make up a story that explains it hands. I could make up a lot of stories for
not long ago, I can make a lot of stories very logo. I've ever designed to me it sort of the same pleasure I used to take as a kid you know sitting on my dentist. Office looking at highlights magazine. They have that thing called hidden pictures, whereas says drawing its the best right. Is this drawing and then it says in the in the picture bob. Can you find you know a teapot hair brush a basket? and then in, and you can see any of those things, and you see, oh, my god, what a hair brush is the drapes on that window and the basketball is that played that's in the pantry, you know, and then I was in your finding all these saying that no such pleasure in discovering those things and
If you got a logo that has been a pleasure embedded in it and I think with like, for instance, when we embedded the ten in the eye and the gene that the big, the big ten logo, we were trying to do something like that, the most famous since insolvent, probably with contemporary logos as the arrow, that's hidden in the FED Ex logo. You know, but I think you know those little surprises just give people so much to give them a little bit of joy. Make them feel smart and actually make them complete. Picture in their own mind, and you have the pleasure of looking at something and making a discovery, and I think if you an associate that moment, apply sure with a logo. There really is a great thing, even if you look at a logo and save all those ligatures are meant to symbolise connection- that's not quite as far as finding a hair brush in in some window curtains, but it saw that something and it works for me these many years later.
So last year. There was a result of the Kodak Logo and I interviewed Cura Alexandra Work order who did it and when I talk to her she purposely talked about how they just ruled out kind of low key, and they didn't make a big hullabaloo about it amidst still got criticized in different ways and and largely lauded. But you know it was kind of a reaction to the brand new thumbs up comes down to it. You know. What do you think of that is that a good idea, D do also do feel slowly inclined, or do you like to throw it out there and have a b a bit of a broad support, I call it. What is what is your take on that? Well, I, used to tell my clients. No one. Will care when your lover was out there don't take out an ad in the paper and say bold, new look same great taste you now with no one cares and isolate Germans, Ale, honor, you honey!
kids come in the universe, amalgamated widget, just change our logo. You know, no one cares, bought, Then we pass through this weird thing: where became this funny kind of like social media enable blood sport where, like you know, you know amalgamated widgets changes logo in three two one game on you now deciding on my for Europe to do that I was I pay for this visa, crap etc, and ourselves suddenly turned, and this like think that people did for their own and others amusement. I still think, though, that these things succeed here too, the degree that their Ashley reflecting something substance has really changed in the thing this represented by the logos in the case of Kodak when they dated that logo. It was meant to mark the rebirth of a beloved american company that
to certain generations. Photographers really was the the the gold standard of, or are just the big S kind of element in the photographic process and was associated with them. Five letter word Kodak, especially with the Yellow Box and with that very simple logo that they had and when care Alexander and her team updated at they ass, you were really care well, I thought insensitive to extrapolating everything they were doing from examples in the past, and I know what pleasure she took. She did one big, bold move, which was announced writing Kodak horizontally. She writes it vertically. She stacks of five letters, one atop each other and is able to make a very neat kind of ready for the twenty first century and all the requirements that logos have to have today in terms of reproduction and
the summit nation. She made a really nice logo with that move and took a great deal of pleasure in finding a couple of examples of the letters being sacked in the same way from deep in the past of the company. So she was able to kind of give the whole thing this imprimatur this endorsement from I almost beyond the grave from the deep in the history of the company, which I think was really satisfying and ass. She very effective for them is Erika Fashion right now that you bristle against, or or maybe one that you think is really simple. For example, is like anything, that's I think it's come always been. Somewhat of a goal and logos, but is used to take on a real guy in principle right now, maybe more than in the time somebody wrote a Coca COLA is along script, is there something you know today that you really love that you think this is a fundamental principle already think of as a fashion or anything like that. I afterward I like
simplicity of form. But I kind of some of them so little suspicious of simplicity and Taipei graffiti in so I love this type face called Helvetica, which some people argue is among now it's a very simple, clean and ubiquitous type face that are, you know that has represented over the years. Everything from american apparel to America Airlines in our chances are no matter where you are there, some Helvetica on something that is. And see from where you're sitting and, if not just take out your wallet and if you have any american paper currency that big number five on your five dollar bill as in Helvetica so there it is right and I think There was a time back in the late sixties, where you can take any logo reset and how better gonna look modern, contemporary and kind of like ready for you now the millennium, and I think that if the bought a favour, and I think I'll be it's come back. A little bed so are, among other things in our very recently Diane Bonfires embarrassment, Redesign
So, instead, all by the idiosyncratic d, V, DV, DV, F, Monogram, thou that with eighty four announced swords and vice versa, in and it looks clean, it looks a neutral look smart, but it also kind of at its worst economic or in this case, but I mean sort of the same sort of coercion, I'm an impasse and kind of I am really to call. Even though knowledge you exist kind of face that super models will have in certain fashion, shoots where they just our expression, less and kind of almost zombie like, oh, I am so cool, don't look it made. No, please look at me not why that I don't know who you are go away, and somebody But I can confirm that have their quality and I just think it sort of em they can be a mean withholding sort of type face. So I have a bunch of listeners there. No design aware their design engaged and
as a person who puts things out in the world in and mixed logos and makes new, logo systems for people? What would you. Come to know when they interact with you like what? What type of criticism would you like to hear or not like to hear Dyson. Do you want a field where, like almost like, a lot of the things that define what I do, can it comes down to really Worrying sort of saying is, like don't judge a book by its cover or, on the other hand, Yoyo one chance to make a first impression, and so they all kind of contradict each other, and you know the advice I give is that at the end of the day, crap Design is really important, but it's also kind of one of the most cosmetic. He's in the world? You know if you can read an exit signed or in a got out the door. You know if the door
now adorn Albanos nailed clothes. You know these are all things that are real impediments, but that exit sign can be in any typeface. You want and are sold and find the door in. So I think it some in our you can make an A handsome exit sign that actually fits the architectural around that you can make one that's hard to read in that it's gonna be dysfunctional, but there's a lot. Different ways to do it and usually it's not a life or death thing. I think, there's a lot things that are like really life and death matters in the world and really important worth getting agitated about. I think that probably I'll, go design. It shouldn't be one of them there. People that are paid a lot of money to care, desperate about the way, logos, luck and eyes would be one of those people. I think that not getting paid to do like trying not to do it too much only due to the great entertains you but then move on a more important things.
Michael Beirut is a partner at Centigram on the proud owner of assign copy of his book. How do you use graphic design to sell things? Explain things make things look better? Make people laugh, make people cry and every once in a while change the world plus the co host, along with Jessica Health and of the park gas, the design of business, the business of design, is really good if you're game for insights into the world of design and designers. You need subscribe to it and its sister podcast Debbie moments, design matters which is like the old of design part. Essential listening. So after that but it's in some very important announcements first, but we have a special bonus interview at the end of the episode, which is a clip of alive event. I do with my friend Kevin smuggler about the places both real and imagined, from your favorite eighties movies given, New book is called Brat Pack, America, it superfine, especially for anyone who grew up on those movies, were places like shit
Sean Rio, a reach of men to refuse of an me roman Mars. Astute listeners from over the years might notice a name missing from the list. Sam Greens, Ninety nine percent of is Emmett Fitzgerald, Laney Hall, Kirk Holster turn Massa Katy mingle shown Rio a reach. Us to refuse him and me Roman, moors, astute wisdom. From over the years might notice a name missing from the list: SAM Greenspun, SAM start on the show, is a remote in turn based in Baltimore, when it was just me and my apartment enrichment, California, he was the very first person I heard the show. Actually you guys hired him during the first Kickstarter and twenty twelve uneven. Critical part of our team over the years he is moving on to do is very on projects which were all really excited about it too soon to tell you anything about it yet, but I want you to number. This word bellwether You can be one of the first to know it is up to buy following him on twitter at San listens and signing up for his tiny letter, email newsletter at same
Greenspan downward. Good luck, SAM. We at nine b. I ask you in the listening audience, Miss hearing you on Russia, We are ready to ninety one point: seven k, L, W in San Francisco and produced on radio row in beautiful, downtown, Oakland California, So few weeks ago, I had a a conversation, infant of alive audience at spur in Oakland, with my pal Kevin smoker about his book brat pack, America, which is like three hundred page love letter to all the places we are favorite eighties, teen movies were said. I really enjoyed the book and our conversation, but after I recorded, I learned that if you aren't as well versed in the eighties movie genre as I am, you might get a little loss and the comes into sort way better on the website wicked bed. All the pictures that place or that we're talking about in the trailers from the movie, along with the audio of the event, is where the coolest Web pages we ever done so I hope you check it out. Here's a little clip of our conversation.
The locations in ferris fuel are all within the downtown loop and Wrigley Field, and I mean this worthy. That struck me watch for his boot again a couple months ago and the they can have a lean. Sense of Chicago. How do you like it's real illiteracy like they're, not. They're, not there, because they really know Chicago they're they're, doing it, that claim things that a little a field trip from school would take them to hear I mean they fork. It's who live like three train stops away from Chicago than they act like their therefrom Coty while May, or something like that, and they all they need to do is get a slice of deep dish. Pizza like believe they have completed their sort of day of tourists. Thing around part, two,
A fair- and this is only very slightly so John Use was a white socks, not cubs fan, and so he wanted to shoot the Wrigley field scene. It Kaminski park, which would have at least taken them to the south cited by the DE socks, were not in town than that weekend, and so they had to film the filament much to his children. It I'd really feel so yeah it is it's a really like not adventurous day off, and the funny thing is John Hume himself, even though he was very aware of himself as a dweller in the North suburbs Chicago when all hack, all over the place, like John a lot of time with one of his kids and John Hume wrote everything down and he used to use the right down like all concerts. He would go to the art exhibits. He would go to ass, a teenager, the guy, the guy met, olive Chicago one foot, and somehow we get this very myopic, parochial picture of of Chicago and
Harrison here. The full interview, trailers, picks and links to Kevin's book brought Pack America on our website. Ninety nine p I dot org, we often don't think of Winter- is attainable growth or creation. But if you think about it, it's the perfect time to greet your own website gives recouped job you thinkin about being productive, and now square space can help you do it. Whiskers based can take your cool ideas. You ve creative content, your services, goods and you can turn them into a beautiful website in just a few clicks. Does it because there is to use template
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Transcript generated on 2020-02-14.