Here at 99% Invisible, we think about color a lot, so it was really exciting when we came across a beautiful book called The Secret Lives of Color by Kassia St. Clair It’s this amazing collection of stories about different colors, the way they’ve been made through history, and the lengths to which people will go to get the brightest splash of color.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is ninety: nine percent, invisible, I'm roman Mars, maybe as those favorite color is red, recover. His favorite color is blue. Cover is ok. With the color read but now hates blue there, and for those who don't know them well, a color they were, is how people tell them apart these colours we're not chosen for them. It just happened. Please fundamental to who they are? When you were a kid Your color is one of maybe five of the most important aspects of your personality, the course of our lives. The fervour for a specific favorite color tends to die down, but over the core, of human history, the search, The brightest splash of color has been a defining feature of our species, cause. You seem clear is fascinated by color how it's made what it means and how it defines us. She wrote a beautiful book called
the secret lives of color that I love so much lighter and talk with me she's riveting. So this episode is just that. I conversation with costs using clear all about the secret lives of color. Took it, how did you begin becoming upset the colors. In what made? You want to write a whole book about the lives of color. Yes, I'm lucky that I came from quite creative. Family, my mother was a forest and I have very vivid memories of cod, messing around in her flowers shopping. Little and I would be given kind of like the off cuts to make little be from us now I can in the beginning of my love of color, but I became interested in it academically diversity. I was studying eighteenth century women's history and, more specifically, What women war to mass great balls during the eighteenth century on one of the few
I loved about studying this very neat topic, is the fact that I got to read so many journals and and letters about what people want planning to where he had worn at parties, and it was filled with with gossip answering, really struck me time again was the fact that, for We using ca the terms in these letters and diaries and and accounts the were completely unfair. Failure to me, and I would have to go when to an awful lot of research to try and recreate what that color might look like an, and sometimes it was impossible for me. You know I simply wouldn't ever be able to find out exactly what that color look like and the fact that the kind of a company had just shifted. You know I was in London. I was in the same city where these people were were. Were writing it
it really wasn't that long ago, historically, and yet the color terminology had had changed really almost completely the colors that were fast. More then we're not colors. The I even recognize That just blew my mind and instead of continued to be of interest to me, and I would always be fascinated by it: in your book. You talk a lot about the relationship between language in color and one of the most Interesting things to me was how different languages divide up the color spectrum differently? Yes, absolutely so, if you think about a color wheel or we, if you think about away representing all the colors, we could possibly see it wouldn't be in a straight line. It would be kind of a random blood and that the areas where a blue fate into green or red face into anti pink or purple and the
the dividing lines, the bit where different cultures decide. This is red, and- and this is blue- and this is purple- that can really change and it contains on an individual basis and also on a linguistic basis, so Various languages have divided up the spectrum differently into moral or fewer groups, but also an indifferent way say. For example, russian speakers have a word for it. Dark, blue and white delightedly, for example, and some languages only divide the collar spectrum into a kind of three or four groups rain. I was struck by this new book that, when the section on pink that there's a word for pay and there's no word for light. Yellower light green. It's just it's so strange that as its own nomenclature yeah, it's a real threat of cultural oddity, emphatically think now play such an outsize role in our culture. Bakers associated with women
else Bambino effect for good and ill, but also, we just we just seem to really love it. In western culture comes up a lot and you're right. You know far more than you would think of, say a pale, green or or or pale blue. I mean there's a sense that these colours this kind of his concepts, but your book, the secret lives of color, is real. About color in the material world, about the pigments themselves- and so I can work- go through a few of those pigments, the sort of tease out these types of stories that we get, and I was thinking that we could just start with red because it seems to be the most universally loved color through history. Why is that? Yeah? Really interesting ones are one of the questions that I get. You know without fail. Every time I do talk about color is whether colors either make humans have us a real physical response, and quite often this idea is kind of a slightly junk science. You know like pink mix,
call what we know whatever, and it's very hard to really pinned down valid scientific data on this. But read is the colored where the most tests have been done and the most tests have come back with with Fanny compelling results that yes, read, does have some form of measurable. Impacts, and perhaps that's why you get it so widely across so many different cultures, because it does seem to make us respond in this sort of really elemental way. So one of the classic examples of this is that if you look at all the games of of football or that had been played since the second above in the UK, the teams that are wearing read, have one on fridge more than eight than they should have done statistically. What
and there was another similar study down on the Olympics as well. As you know, the Athens Olympic Games on and on combat sports in it, and it and again he had similar results, which it does seem incredible, but also makes you think if you ever play sporty It definitely make sure that you as a team I and ready also one of the oldest colors? Can you can you talk about how people We read in the ancient world, sure so one of the oldest pigments, I'm always read. Pigments that we know about is, is he met tight, which essentially, you can kind of thing carve like rusted set its iron side, you find it in in oak- is reddish ochres and the use of chemical compounds, is made on really common in the earth's crust? You get kind of red thread. Tinted earths, either geographically, really widespread Eric, so it's not surprising in a way that its cropped up in a lot of different archaeological context.
All over the world and in China as America, North Africa Europe is caught up again and again and again, but so who am universal, that it was dubbed buying. Nineteen eighteen anthropologists is one of the city of the two consistent markers of Kiev, human evolution along with two making I would have preferred somewhere in He imitate read into making or the things that make humans human. Yes, because that's amazing but imitates calls out of fashion, because we find brighter versions of red, so One of the reasons why I love color as a subject yeah just so fascinated by is because humans have always gone to the most extreme. An extraordinary lengths to get their hands on brighter and more interesting shave,
that's really evident when you talk about red, so yes, they have this really widely available red death that they can set of dig up from one anywhere in the world, but that is not enough. It's not bright enough, and so somewhere along the line. Someone discovers that if you crush up a type of scale insect that can be found in Europe called me. That's coop becoming scale insect that you can put geez, I really am quite vibrant red die, and this was highly popular on clothing. It was used as a kind of state, a symbol and it was also very expensive and because the fineness of Cloth and the expense of a die went together? There's no point in having a really beautifully manufactured, woollen cloth dying it a color. This associated with poverty, a particular type of of very fine cloth, cooled Scarlet was
usually died with these scale insects. What usually died. This very vibrant red and so eventually the name of the cloth which is scarlet woollen cloth became kind of synonymous the red that it was so often died and that's kind of how the names scarlet and the color red came together is actually sitting our aid from the very fine wooden cloth now, but some there's another read at you can be pronounced. This is a coach anneal. How did you say the occasional Hosea faith if I see yea and it is very similar to tee and two scarlet also made with a scale insect, but this one right, being european is very calm. In south and central america- and we yes, very well, only by a text and an income in the end that culture and again it was associated with with rulers, and power, but it was all
those that a part of that kind of taxation system in a way. So when there was a vassal states, the vassal states would be expected to give their rulers certain numbers of sacks of caution, die or the dry bugs said of every mean a month or two months, depending on how wealthy this fossil state was so was really set of highly valued and and Riddick embedded in the culture. How did this color interact with organization in trade around the world, so cold, and currents? You have been one of those things that people go and take over other countries and exploit other air so the world for either very often natural resources that the people are desperate to get their hands on and they can make an awful lot of money from back and so in addition, was one of the products that these Spanish, where we were desperate,
get their hands on. In order to get this red color and back Europe where it was actually many times stronger than the economy's die that had been originally used to I'm color scarlet classification illness is much too. And so it's much more cost effective and a great sums of money could be made and were made in the export, and use of this die meaning like seventy thousand these to get a pound of or right, yeah I mean in with all these dies that are made out of animals and animal products. You know that the it's really did the poor creature so that's involved in the making of the collar really does get completely hammer idea. Very often, it takes an awful lot of them to produce not very much die or not very much tolerant and often you fine teenage than being driven to the brink of extinction. Just because people are so keen to get their hands on on the color You still use insects like these to make pigments today
Yes, so there is a slight least of grim side to this particular color. In it it's gonna be consent, true red color, and also because, as we know, it, really highly pigment it. It has been used in kind of food and also cosmetic. So if you were to look at you, strawberry yogurt, or something like that. You might see that it's been coloured with been acid. Will you might see it down as the current one twenty, and that is in fact personal bugs whoa ok certainly see anyone. I bet you in bugs. Yes, but if you think about it, all the colors that are used in food. I mean you know, maybe four rolled. But you know few replace eat when twenty with another color, and that the likelihood is that that color, it might well be an extract from like a cold tall. Sludge is where a lot of other continents come from
you know, I don't know tomorrow or uncle Wiggily opinion So, as you mentioned the color for opinion, it can be pre rare in nature. It intends to require the wholesale slaughter of entire species to make it happen, which brings me to a tyrian purple. Can you talk about during purple? Yes, this is one of my favorite stories from this books, because many people has this automatic association between royalty and purple and its one is kind of cultural links that maybe you didn't think about too much, but actually the link is really far back and it is based on this amazing purple die called to reinforce Again, if an animal based coloring- and it comes from two varieties of shellfish- that our native to the Mediterranean
and if you were to go with a nun, find some one of these selfish and the quite spiny. So you have to be careful when you picked it up and if he was a crocodile open. You would see that that kind of a pale, the land that runs across the you know that the back of the of the shellfish and this gland contains eight in a single drop of liquor. That smells a little bit like garlic. Apparently, it's really unpleasant smilingly garlic breath and this liquid. Is phenomenal when its exposed to the light, if you to sit, anticipate rubber on a piece of cloth and expose that piece of cloth to the light it would have. Digitally changed, color, return, yellow and then green and then blue and then finally purple the collar that it produces, is very distinctive and and very vibrant, and this was the dye been loved by the
world and became again because it is very expensive, really associated with power and royalty So again you get lots of legislation dictating who and and can't where it is a kind of a famous store about the emperor Nero who turned up to a recital saw a woman in the audience where bring to reincorporate gown and she wasn't Nina of their of the rights class or status to wear it and so He had her take from the room and whipped all her lands confiscated because he saw this is a real a wave usurping his own power. Because she was taking the our bestowed by this color was so potent symbol which is kind of amazing again, like the poor scale, bugs be the full shelf
you went through went through horrors because of humans desire for this purpose, so it takes about two hundred and fifty thousand of these shellfish to produce. Just ounce of die, and so people were hunting these selfish em to extinction, new, catching and and using so many of these shellfish that actually, they kind of almost form geographical features. If you go back to some of the the area if the world were producing this die in the classical era, the disco- did shells have almost become kind of hills outside the town We often down wind of the town or the dye works with due generally associated downwind, so that the citizens I'm not wearing the terrain, purple gowns wouldn't be bothered by the smell of the manufacture and so winded purple,
all kind of lose. Its association means always an associate with royalty, but when did it become acceptable for a common folk to wear it without getting wept the Turin purple, both because the shellfish Mina became incredibly rare, but also because of political Tom Whale around the Mediterranean, which kind of really disrupted the manufacture of the die dream purple itself enlarged, large, disappeared from from view purple kind of goes into little bit of a decline until the mid nineteenth century. When entirely new purple die was discovered completely by accident unlisted of letter. Revival in what said was that I call so the New people die that was discovered in the mid nineties. Century is called move and it was discussed
but by an eighteen year old scientists to his home, on holiday and kind of using his his vacation time to try and find a synthetic vote able to produce a synthetic whinnying would be kind of a huge huge money make if anyone could discover it. So that's what he was doing you spending his his days in a work on this, a huge in if anyone could discover it. So that's what he was. EU spending. His his days in a work on this in his father's attic and on one of his failed experiments. What he ended up with it is in his test. Tube was a set of purple sludge. I think you know he definitely knew this wasn't queen. I think possibly because you interested in art and had had painted in younger days he decided Robin, just throwing these pupils which way he would automatically
to do it, and then he would dip in a piece of cloth and what he discovered was that he had completely accidentally. Made a really color fast and very vibrant purple die, and this was incredibly In fact, it led to a whole revolution in synthetic dies. You know is that it was the first synthetic die that could be money for. Did you know not using any natural components. No bugs snow pieces, Newport Shellfish and a neat just allowed purple to be worn by a much greater section of society than ever before? and so the invention of move really just impacted. The tire textile industry because of this possibilities opened up and artificial dying, is the right way. Yes, although it ain't you'd think you would be kind of immediate. You think that in the whole world would very quickly continent if you'll excuse, the pun too.
The value of this of this synthetic diamond fact. It took a while for the scientists to schools and William Perkin to persuade I'm textile dyes that this was the way forward because We used to working with natural plant extracts and the idea of a synthetic die was really alien to them, and it was in fact, in a his success, only really happened slightly by accident because he persuaded a couple of textiles, else to use this die and one of them ended up. I'm selling a gown to some busy royalties Princess Eugenie WAR again in this purple, and then the real clincher was Queen Victoria wore a move. Gown too, one of her daughters, weddings, his wedding and the scouts are greatly reported in the press. This new color and it came a completes fashion trend so much so
a year after Queen Victoria, had worn this gown, a sort of satirical English newspaper reported. The London had become afflicted with the move measles zone people were wearing this color. I think it was intrigue, especially by the collar green in your book, because it seems like it. Is this thing that so fundamental to nature its everywhere, but it was history clearly challenging to make. Could you explain why that is? Yes, I am, although, like you say, we we kind of look around the world, and it seems that is a lot of green in our world. In fact, it's very difficult to make stable, vibrant green color ants either, as is pigments in paint, but also in dies as well, and there were some who were sitting at adept at it and and very often in autumn, two were able to make vibrant greens would
make them by layering various different colors on top of each other and Dias would have. Sensitive again what, with several different die colors, which was united Medieval, while the mixing of dies was ready. Frowned on. Why is that is often because of guilt restrictions because they were very protective of their guilt scheme. I'm so Dias Guild dealt with wooed Indy blue eyes with very reluctant to also work with yellow color ants, and so the mixing of blue and yellow to create a green was almost Siena's is demolition. Re transgress, if in many ways, for example, You know any kid with pained knows how to do almost instinctively yeah, it is an old one. Is one of those things where eat you, ni realise how far away you off with people you're studying when you
Reading these these documents you're looking at these kind of debate surrounding it and and prosecutions here, the prosecution of people making green cloth. So artists were able to find good. Reds and could yellows, but greens were kind of hard to find. How did they end up finding the right green for painting? Yes, it's a greens for only save some artists were able to creates vibrant green is by using kind of into me, Jerry Layers It was a real kind of trade scale. It was closely guarded secret by some artists, seated at the secret today, green. Their ability to create these these mean a peaceful colors but that aren't really very many stable natural, green pigments fits artists have access. To which meant that when they started being created in his corner of Russia of new chemicals and and experimentation in the nineteenth century,
the creation of new greens. They were taken up really rapidly and without much thought or or care for what she was contained in these greens and secure a green card. She was green. I could you tell us about the uptake of that and the horrible effects of that was created by a swedish scientist in one thousand seven hundred and seventy five and the cause that was the death of bright green pigments on the market in this was relatively cheap. It got taken up by artists who paint manufacturers and dressmaker
incredibly quickly. Well within a decade it was kind of everywhere on. My favorite stories is that the right of Charles Dickens came back from a trip to Naples, where he seen a lot of this green being used and decided that he going to decorate his entire house this one particular shade of green? We know from the basement to the attic very luckily for him and for us, written into his work and his wife. Waded him and said that she thought it was disgusting, color, He ended up peanut, not decorating his entire house. This particular grassy emerald green, and I say luckily for us because it was discovered. This pigment that was made me from arsenic was really poisonous or could be re. Poisonous
It was found that in samples of white paper that way in only a few inches across contained enough arsenic to kill two adults. One of the industries that this green was was really popular and was the artificial flower industry because it was used to so paint the the stems and under the leaves are these artificial flowers and a girl called Matilda. He was young. Actually, eighteen and nineteen started working in it. Fishing flower factory and very quickly became very ill and a doctor in London. It started looking into the causes of this because You know she had a really disparate array of symptoms and eventually discovered that it was this green color and but by that time it was far too late. It was all the country all over the world. It was used in wallpaper in dress fabric in you name it it was it was. It was painted this in an
he didn't green, but one of the most famous suppose its victims of this green is Atween Napoleon. It was found out after his death There was quite a lot of green in the white paper that was used, decorate his rooms, and it was thought for a long time that this arsenic, green might have contributed to his death. Although subsequent tests have out, they shone. They managed to find some samples of his hair throughout his life. Goodness any knows how, but they tested all these samples of hair. And found that we had really high arsenic levels throughout his life, and then it didn't write suspiciously just before death, although I am sure be being in a room covered with with arsenic wallpaper can't have helped his his health one little bit. I'm one of the strange things I think you learn. Reading your book is the place of blue in history. How
popular was blue as a color throughout history. So now it's one of the most popular, if not the most popular color, globally among men and women, and it's kind of seen as being an sparring trust and confidence and all good things, and you kind of your tempted to kind of push that back into his But in fact, if you look at the ancient world and and kind of really up until the fourteenth century, Blue seen as unlucky, uncouth unfashionable associated the kind of barbarism, particularly in the west, this is in western.
When western culture- and it was only with the kind of the rise of the cult of the Virgin Mary in Christianity, because she was popularly depicted wearing either blue garments- that Blue began to sensitive, have this kind of cultural resurgence in western thought and suddenly became He quickly of really popular color. That's amazing! So who decided to the picture where in blue reflect, who made That decision to change the world again, it's kind of incredible! So I'm around about the same time that the call to the virgin Mary was growing. The use of this particular pigment Ultra free, which was made from La Islam. I was growing and being kind of perfected and again because it was this really vivid, color and was incredibly ix. Save it became a way of artists and patrons of shit
bring their devotion to the virgin Mary by depicting her in this really expensive, luminous pigments, the came from a very long way away in or even its name, ultra ultra Marine comes from Ultra Mara beyond the sea. The pigment itself has this. You know Gazing me exotic connotations, and that became bound up with the cold the virgin Mary and the two kinds of bounced off each other and brought each other up in a funny sort of way. Could you describe how odd marine was made. Sure. So many people are familiar with with lapis lousy lie, which is the semi precious stone is the kind of the raw material for making ultramarine. It's kind of a really am gorgeous dark blue stone that use a lot in injurie and kind of looks a little bit like the night sky. Is this really deep, blue and often has,
get from this very gorgeous. Semi precious stones to a pigment takes off a lot of hard work. The mines, the Afghanistan in mind when the opposite I came from were incredibly remote. The stone would have to be low this very gorgeous. Semi precious stones to a pigment takes an awful lot of hard work. The mines and the Afghanistan in mind when the opposite I came from were incredibly remote. The stone would have to be loaded onto donkeys and camels, taken across the silk route to the coast of the Mediterranean put on ships, and they were usually fetch up in in Venice, which is that of tee the ports where so many luxury goods came into Europe and once an artist What is his pieces of life is lousy lie. The work was still far from over. The stones had to be ground down to a powder, and then it had to be purified. Those bits of food
scolding and the white traceries I mentioned in the original stone. Had those elements have to be removed because they turned the blue collar and rather dull and a bit ashes and the way that was done, is the blue and the power did bluestone would be mixed with mastic wax and then it would be needed almost like yours have needing a dough to make bread in a solution of of lie and as the dough. It was, was needed in the flakes of blue, which I'm fool out to the bottom of. See lie solution. I need them, be up tip off the lie and you'd have blue bright blue sediment that could then be used. I'm to create an amazing pigment. Ultra marine that was just been of of artists in
either medieval. Artists and artists in the renaissance is one of the kind of the classic pigments that was used during this. I'm. In very often when you see a painting of the virgin Mary shall be swayed in in a rich blue cloth and usually that talk we painted using ultramarine and its also kind of at the root of one of my fate kind of color facts, which is that Tito? Although now we think of pink as being for girls and blue is being for boys, in fact, if you go back said about me, I'm just a little. Over a century a century and a half It was the other way round pink and was still seen as pale red and was much more associated with with boys and blue, because it's ca with the virgin Mary was seen as the more feminine and dainty color the process of extracting impure find. These colours seems
oh arduous, and speak to the desire for the end product that they would go through such efforts to try to create it. We have identified this like real human pursuit of like basically food shelter, and the brightest color imaginable seem to be just part of ingrained in our dna yeah? We love shiny, bright colors, and we are prepared to do all sorts of ways, wonderful thing to have them. So integrate orange? Because I need to know once and for all what came first, the color or the fruit. The fruit came fast. Yet the freak came, came first and as it travelled across the world it routes. Name and its color with it, which is rather nice, but before in the english language Orange was cool,
orange, it was ass. She called yellow red, which kind of makes sense, but isn't there if it is a bit long winded. So, let's talk broadly about the color black, I think people think of black is one thing, but there are lots of different shades of blacks. Who could you describe what black is and what black means and world? Yes, if it It's a funny thing that if you go into a paint shop, war clothing store you can find, so many hundreds, thousands of variants of white and we can call them crew. Emu, ivory, your pal and when we ve got lots of different names for them, and yet we do set of collapse. So many subtle, blacks into one very big overarching label and in fact Brok has many different subtleties of tone, the inner as white does, and yet we just don't rigour in all our vocabulary:
for black is really poor and sat in a way which is one of the college. I was most worried about when I was writing a book I was, I owe you know, I'm gonna get to this one chapter and have nothing to say, and I found completely the opposite. I found I became frustrated. I wanted people of the past to have been as excited about black, as, as they were about red, sends an blues, because it seems to me that there was just there was such richness there that it seemed a shame that we need. I didn't have the The vocabulary teach you to do it. Justice will soon. You talked earlier about the arrival of move or the arrival of green into the world and how the world to scan exploded with excitement and how amazing think of discovering or seen color for the first time this the closest analogue? I can come too
When I saw a man to block for the first time which almost breaks your brain without black, it is, can you describe advance black is and in how you encountered it yeah? So I guess he's pretty start with the name than to black it. It sounds very space age, but actually it's kind of it comes from a useful Acronym Avanza stands for vertically aligned, nanotube array and essentially vantablack. Is it's not really a color? It's more of a a. That absorbs more light than anything else on earth, and that is because of its structure because of these vertically align tubes, tiny, tiny, tiny filaments of carbon fiber D. Light, gets kind of absorbed between and amongst these fibers and can't get out get trapped.
So very little light is reflected. What did they make their substance when it was created for countries really specific purpose? So it was crazy food for thought. Like guidance systems, the idea being that for an order for em a satellite know where it is in space. It takes it an image of what it can see of. What's it in front of it, and then that can be kind of stop with a map of the sky and then the inner, the satellite. What kind of nowhere is on the block that you can get the internal work kings around the the Cameroon Navigation Systems, the better, because it means that sort of less destruction and the image that will be clearer and therefore in it, it'll be easier for the satellite to navigate. I'm. So there's been this kind of creation of Super box in abide by nuff, sermon and various other people who work with satellites will make subtle
but a british company sort of out of nowhere discovered a much black black than ever been disk. But before you only reflects about no point, not six. Five percent of the visible spect so you don't really is uncannily black and its far too. Och is far too light absorbing for it to give our eyes any information about the kind. Environment within. So what I mean by that is, when First saw a sample of Anti block, it was kind of grown, to sample of onto a bit of a piece of crumpled up any minium foil. And when you look at the reverse, you could see the different planes. You could see that it was this complex piece of volume and in full from the plains of of light on that gave information about where you were in relation to the tinfoil in, and the father was crumpled Anne and all the rest of it when it
turned over to expose the divan two black coated side. Suddenly what you saw was what looked like a kind of a mistake like an acme black hole. Because your your eyes, what being given enough information. So what you saw was Even though you knew that this piece of any meaningful was was three d at leader? Had lots of contours you, you couldn't decide that And all of a sudden, all of a sudden, only could see was just a black hole, and that was in Regrettably uncanny these limits even in inner, in an in a sample in a lab. Even though I knew exactly what I was going to see, I went there expecting it, and yet still I couldn't quite right, my head around it, but it really shocked people and I spoke to the scientists involved in its creation, and he said he was getting cools from people soon. After have been discovered, tat
him. This creation must, in some way be associated with the devil, has anything that block came back that little information to ice must be intrinsically evil, which is such an odd. You know a knee jerk reaction, but in fact you know it's incredible, but is also holy harking back to all these stories that you ve told us that these association is primal associations we have with these colours. It sounded Actually, like you know, the alchemists told that they can't it's blue and yellow or their daily work of the devil, the other we haven't lived on all that far after all, maybe maybe not. I had a question about the design of the book itself. It's really beautiful in one of the poorest parts is that you have a colored stripe on the edge of the pages that go with each color story, but I couldn't,
but think about how stressful it must have been? You know you have to be right on the money that you got the right pigment. You know in the printing process in everything. That is something that can you up at night. Yes, it did. No I'm not gonna, tell you, which color is that gives me. This still gives me sleepless nights. I have like. I had anxiety nightmares about Europe. For coming out me and say your he'll who is wrong or everyday scientists. No, oh, no, I'm gonna get myself into so much trouble, and, and what was so stupid is that each part of the argument of the book is that there is no true. Ultra marine colors are cultural creations and they kind of shifting all the time sort of like tectonic plates color is not precise thing. It's changing its being its constantly being redefined and argued over and that's part of the magic carpet. That's part of why I love it, but it's also part of why it is in
irritating and basically when you find yourself in the position of having to choose the right color for each and every page of your book, you finding the whole thing completely ridiculous and and and cursing the fact the ever were interested in color in the first place The final story from Cartier Sinclair about the color blue in art, forgery, and not six. When we come back, we often don't think of winter is a tolerable growth or creation. But if you think about it, it's the perfect time to greet your own website does recouped job you thinkin about being productive and now square space can help you do it with. Whereas based can take your cool ideas, you ve creative content, your services, goods and you can turn them into a beautiful website in just a few clicks does because there
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collaboration and, and and those who collaborated with the nazis- jury The war were being investigated. One of those was an art dealer, I'm fine meagre in Had sold an awful lot of canvasses of vermin, Isn't there I other artists to nazi collectors and even to kind of Hitler's own collection itself. The prosecution of began of this of this art dealer and he turned round and said. Actually you know you shouldn't be prosecuting me. You should think of me as a hero because far from selling Out, you know amazing, Dutch owned off to the Nazis. What I was actually do, if I was in creating these masterpieces from scratch. I'm a forger I was never selling for me as to the Nazis. I was just ripping them off he had made a fortune during this period it made. I think the modern
here, is somewhere in the region of around thirty three million dollars. The heat made by selling these sinner suppose it artworks say found himself in this really odd position of having to kind of proof that he was guilty of forgery in order to prove that he was innocent of collaboration and the pigment that eventually kind of proof He had forged these pictures which, by this time, were in all this most well respected, art galleries. Maybe european fold an of people as well, as is the Nazis, but that the pigment this all turned on was cobalt blue because it had in discovered a long time after the me, his death and yet was discovered
to have been used in this one to take it out for me, are fake for me that he had created, and so he managed to prove that he was guilty of forgery because of the presence of cobalt blue, where in fact he had meant to use ultramarine, which is the meaning of the pic of the Van but appeased, but so good why this is so much fun. Thank you so much I enjoy. This immensely tat was. My pleasure is really great fun. Ninety nine percent, invisible was polices week by imitates Gerald Muse by Sean Rio, Katy mingle, is the senior producer. Critical stance is the digital director recipe. Who'd senior editor do any harm a reach, often turn Joe Rosenberg Vivian Lee Sharif Use of Sophia. Let's go and me roman Mars, we're project.
One point: seven K, L W in San Francisco, he produced on radio row in beautiful, downtown Oakland California Ninety nine percent, invisible is a member of Radio Toby from Pierre acts, are fiercely independent, collective of the most innovative shows in all upon casting fund, more radio Tokyo data available you can find a show. In joint discussion about the show on Facebook, you between the roman Mars and the show at ninety nine p, I org Bron, Instagram Tumblr and read it to you, you can. A breeze the shows favorite color at night, p, I gotta work. Radio do.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-14.