Hi everyone welcome to the a six in podcast. Today's episode is all about education. It's spaces, the conversation that took place last month, MARC, Andreessen and Dylan Field, ceo dot of figma as part of an interview series they hosted for back to school, and we are running it here as part of our post labor Day back to school week, theme with mark earlier this. We also ran another q and a he did on productivity, scheduling, reading habits and more this q and a which originally Where does a video covers the purpose past and present of education? Briefly touch the current pandemic and its impact. It goes into the costs and economic the education, everything from student, even the debt crisis government funding industry ass disease credentials and accreditation capture and more to the trade off of with often been dust. I'm as hard and soft degrees when it comes to making money and assessing skills objectively. To finally show

a lot of advice for students and others contemplating change in their careers, and especially how to show your work and get noticed while, throughout the episode threading the tricky question of what to make of those who have considered dropping out, delaying or skipping school to go straight to fieldwork or start up. Investigation was actually inspired by students and a figment design community who are contemplating the decision on whether to go back to school earlier this summer and as part of their broader free program to help make design accessible to all for links to figments community of and other resources, please, in the show notes and go to figma dot com, slash education for more in our education series and archives, you can go to eight nc dot com, slash education. What would start off with a with an easy one? What's the purpose of college Well, there's the overt purpose of college and then there's the actual purpose of so overt purpose. Ecologist,

obvious. It is out of any sort of this bundle of services, it's you know. The bundle basically is likes. You know some level and sort of educate at some some level of actual education. Slash skills. Training will probably talk a lot about that today and then it's you know. Basic It is kind of for your kind of you know, adventure for young adults, you know where they get to. You know in theory, socialize with their peers and so forth, form networks and and to date dating service, its thing, it's a real say. I realize tender experience, tinder larping, maybe he didn't, then he is, you know you know, and then I'd say is a giant sports complex. You know generally attached to a hedge fund in the form of the environments. it's like some bundle of services, Firstly, at the brand placed the place of a growing, it's obviously going for the potential and introduce society Bessie overt purpose, the sort of Venus. In more cynical view, is that there is sort of an implicit purpose which, basically is it's it's. Basically, it's basically the way: employers, delegate, personality testing.

Is it bad to write to somebody else and basis, so they basically don't get in trouble for it, so in the in the old days you know twenty thirty. Forty fifty years ago, employers used to actually do personality testing, and so, if you applied for a job at Hewlett Packard as an example or one of the big companies of the time, you would actually take like a battery personality. assume it actually test. They ve tested IQ test for intelligence, and then they would test for personality traits and they'd be fundamentally trying to get it, but he got it they are trying to get to a personality, trait conscientiousness which, basically as certain what size, but especially alike, are you. I saw started like there's only two sides consciousness there was called out industriousness, which basically is energy mix up busy. These offer pal than theirs orderliness, which is basically a pensioner detail, so they're gonna trying to capture sunset about us on it. came some combination of kind of socially undesirable and illegal for employers to do those tests, and so basically, those that the current theory kind of is that those have been authorised to the college and then to basically the implicit propose. A college number one is basically is right,

it hasn't away and in the form of the city or the city, and then the other part is of colleges was called the they call it the sheepskin effect, which is basically the fact that you prove that you can actually finish the program and that basically, it's basically an applied test of conscientiousness personality, trait called conscientiousness, which basically is basically it's a it's a productive thing You can finish a four year college degree. It is believed by employers that that a suggestive that you can also finish many other tests that you'll be responsible for, The reason we know that the cases because it was called the sheepskin a fact which is, as somebody who goes to college for seven out of eight semesters, does not receive seventy eight of the income of somebody. four out of its investors that receive half the income of somebody who those four four eight out of it, and so there is basically the sheepskin effect is either that last semester is responsible for a full half of the skills medication.

while you're in college more, the skills of education are somewhat beside the point, they're just trying to see what you can get over that for your hurdle and so that the sheepskin effect is what psychologists refer to reg education experts refer to as like it's. Basically, the proof that. You are able to complete the program, and so is there anyway. Then, if you're an employer. This is why employers have indexed right so much on college degrees over the last thirty or forty years is because it's just it's the easy way to say. Smart kid can finish his work done so when should someone go to college yeah? So so I'm a believer. So I am a pragmatist and will have multiple. I think parts of this conversation today, but I'm a pragmatist at heart. So my view is like you, basically, you you have to. As at the individual level, you should take. The system kind of bass is constructed, like you shouldn't try to like fight to like basically overturn the system starting at age. Eighteen, like you, should get in a position of it may be important concerning the freedom and so I'm a big believer. It's like the system as it is today. American employers are very

very heavily in western employers generally are very, very heavily focused on and unfounded graduates. In fact, one of the really good things happen and economy. That probably is a bad thing, but it has happened is that there are just there Then a steady increase in the percentage of jobs. It s require bashers degrees, including for jobs where you would think it wouldn't be a. We would need that kind of requirement, but has issued its it's because of how the systems and is of all this kind of where we are, and so so I think it's actually quite dangerous. To give somebody be somebody as an individual. The advice don't go to college, like in the current system that we have that base Please ANG, don't prove that you're smart, don't prove that you're industrious and conscientious and then basically be prepared to settle for fundamentally lower income for the rest of your life and, I think that's extremely dangerous advice of so the general advice is basically if you can go to college, go to college on that. Tat. I think it's worth being very aware, right of of a basically what that actually means right and- and we already discussed some of that in terms of like what what you're actually proving and so, for example, if you go to college the general best advice is finished.

It is you know like one of the things that we've kind of fetishized a little bit in Silicon Valley over the last twenty years. Is basically this idea of dropping out right, just gotten the benefit of driving a benefit of probably to be very clear, that's right, and so basically like it again it it. It may like. It is true: bill gates and Mark Zuckerberg, and all these people dropped out of college. It's also true that that's very I had a choice for most people, most of us it bill gates and works like a bird and so like. Generally speaking, gotta cows finished out. That's I'd be aware of what's happening, and then the other thing which hopefully will talk about at length, but why We sort of have this tendency in the public. Discussion on college was talking about like going to college and we're we're already doing that. But it's like okay, there's, two big loaded kind of dependencies in there, which is one, is which school right matters

enormously and then the other is which major we have matters enormously, and I think there is, if you want to kind of think about like a two by two matrix of majors and schools, and the outcomes are wildly different depending on where you landed at matrix and I think Connecticut's yeah. So basically, I think people focus way too much on whether go to college. I don't spend nearly enough time focusing on what school and what major and so, basically and here's where things get like super interesting. So basically, what you see is there app for the sort of hard disciplines of like engineering and math. it actually turns out, there's a fairly flat distribution of income by rank of college, and so generally speaking, if you get like a electrical engineering degree or a cs degree or master degree. And then you look at kind of earnings, overtime. how you get you do somewhat better? Armed if you go to a school, is too high up the rankings, but we fundamentally more or less the same over time across all the schools, which is like an engineering degree as an engineering degree and like

when John Yours or computer scientists are programmers whatever to the extent that they're kind of always in demand there is, there is a marked current wage. For that still sat in a kind of doesn't matter is, but now there employers, where they like, will only hire people out of certain topics in programmes but like most most employers are prosecuted. We highlighted the group already schools and I so like anyway, so is like the heart, the heart disciplines. We talk more about that then they're sort, the software once in MRS sort of looking kind of liberal arts humanity's you no kind of all of the young, you no kind of all sort of image Ba versus the S right, so the bastard razor like a hard to Greece, the heart, the hard science and math and an anthem and an engineer, degrees the Ba degree in bachelor of arts who usually does offer sociology or english later philosophy, or you know a lot of these. You know kind of humanities, liberalized kinds of things. For those there is a dramatic curve, If she has, you get paid much more with those degrees coming out of a top school You coming out of the school or alarming school up to

Point where you really kind of got to ask the question like? Is it sociology degree from like you know the from the lower two thirds of colleges like as it is at this point? Is it actually worth anything The answer is, the answer there might actually Welby need, may not be worth anything like their bid to simply not be jobs for those people who got a degree from from those goals and the that that that conventional explanation for that people can have different theories on us down. The conventional explanation they education experts, gonna, believe, is that basically, for the soft agrees their made for the higher degrees. There's, definitely a skill that can you design a circuit or not? Can you solve an equation or not? Can you write a computer program or not for the kind of soft degrees, liberal arts, humanities, interpretation thing is a little bit more in the eyes of the holder. And so basically the theory is that if you get one of those two Greece Mittal TOP School, you also get the network. So from investments in. If you looking for our ally, you should at any school it sounds like

hard sciences, you're, saying good investment, after sciences are or humanity's about investment. Less you going to adopt your school well yeah, so yeah yeah yeah. I think that's right and, of course, this this this begs of it. I can hear the howling kind of been in a in a in the audience already on a topic like this. This begs the question right of like what is the purpose of the college education and I would just say that's where I come from. It was like in Wisconsin that it was just sort of obvious, which is the the college that the entire point of a college. Education is the income you make after you get through that you have to get you get the degree, and so I was as a kid like. I was never confused about that. The idea that there are all these intangible kind of things about like No one ever social, this, madam you. No sign of that, the all the other again get it. I was there inspirationally right with the liberal arts. People will say as it's about how to live a good life and it's about how to have the right values and it's about how does this become like aware of the world and all these things and like in again I've I've tried not to take a position on that, yet You can't believe either size of that, and so maybe they're. My point is like me:

when there are non economic reasons, to get a liberal arts degree, and maybe there are non economic reasons to get a liberal arts degree even at a college. That's not top tier up. However, even if you believe that you should go into that eyes open of what the economic results of that is likely to be an economic result of a liberal arts. Degree from a lower college is not likely to be what people think it is and by the way, this I first noticed this factors, then directly into the whole concept of the student loan crisis, which is like a huge debt. Basically, a crisis is basically a cheaper crisis, but the the part of it, that's just like the most kind of you know, kind of honestly tragic, it's basic it adds that relies too late. Thither did in a wrong degrees, banned or from the wrong school and then they just don't have the income to be able to service the degree? And I, and I think in that case, like it's, basically you, I guess, that's the part of the house's summit like an honestly enrages make us. I think it's basically taken advantage of aid gets

and I ve parents. We basically have been sold this concept. The college's is just do it even when it is not always the case, though, if you were President United States till controlled Congress, so scary, better. If you were- and you could do anything to address soon one crisis what would you yeah so first, I would resign instantly, which I think, honestly, that was off the table. The only responsible thing to do starting this other. I forget what it was. I think it's the governor of Kentucky, if I recall correctly, one of the governors allowable I'm out cause. These are all there is a big state level kind of component to this cause. There are these states here only state colleges, universities that the state subsidizes the states can excuse me subsidize, and so I forget, I think it was Kentucky governor I thank him out. A basically said like we need to stop. Basically was time for the state and schools to stop teaching like liberal arts like it's, just not an echo we like valid proposition because, like the the are, are

worth as much into the process that generated. I dunno I dunno, if they just follow through on that, because that generated huge controversy, because people people hate to hear that. But if you look at some point that has split at some point, you have to have a question about value. Given value received a particular look, yeah. I think people should be able to buy and pay for anything that they want, like people want to go, get whatever degree they want me want to pay for it, I'm all in favor, but like we do have this like federal loan program. That is just basically as this monotonically increasing pile of debt and and by the way like the student loan program is like it's. This is basically this. It's this load rate of like trillions of dollars of debt I can taxpayer, and so there's like one questionnaire and then there's the other electronic impact on the students themselves, which is like student loan debt at least today, student loan debt, as the one from a debt that you don't get discharged through personal bankruptcy right, and so the students aren't just basically getting victimized on behalf of society or else getting victimized like personally. It's like causing a big deal, especially this newer generation. Last twenty years like there's, a lot of kids running around, like we've, been very damaged by this, and so

Think, fundamentally, like I think there has to be at some point. There has to be the honest discussion about value given value. In any other site about which, when I talk about the other side of it, as there has to be some examination into how we got that ended up with this kind of adverse outcome, and I think I know why that is which is its a cartel. a government and a sponsor cartel, and I think her tells her bad and I think we need a kind of fundamentally reconsider the system, but it is- that without going to that. So what do you mean? It's the cartel so viewed through an economic lens, so k through twelve in the US right is the monopoly right and it's just a number. It's just a flat out government monopoly. An example of a school, and I have no option is compulsory. Education about about is literally composers. Captive is compulsory education. It's basically state states, directly state funded state rotten, maybe I'll be there. These are government institutions, either government schools Asian become public. Schools are typical governments, goals, which is what they are right,

and so you it's it's it's a government running a school just like the government would be running a restaurant right. Depressurize. One ask on these things is: how would you feel about eating government sushi right and then you know, because what we are doing our? How would you feel about you know? How would you feel how'd you showed its department, transportation started making cars right. Would you would you want to drive the official? U S, government Do you mind if I design a manufacturer automobile like this at an attractive, but you think they'll be safe and to do on the freeway? Lydia Lydia Visa and whether the empty designing cars frightens alike. Basically, we have decided that, like you, we don't let the government makes issue, and I think I want my cars. We let the government experts and we expect that worried about a reserve Of course, we don't get better results because, of course, we dont in the recently donors, because its monopoly right in the matter the the motto of any monopoly right, the amount of any monopoly. Is we don't care because we don't have to write like it it just like that, the into the needs of the customers don't matter at all to the monopoly. That's that's the whole problem of monopoly and so Dave Chertoff has a map monopoly. It exhibits all those others.

It was just a volume of it before we go on to non cage was sure what did it would? You pointed says that soil I was probably going. Okay, well, actually, a great key to revolve experience. What did what you pointed out says: okay, K through twelve doesn't work. Oh yeah, it was just spiraling prices, spiralling costs, so the great myth is that we've somehow slashed funding for public education- the? U S within the last forty years, like that's, just like false we'd like greatly expanded it, and so like the per student that the dollars per student in real economic terms in the last like forty years and something like tripled in the US and the results haven't moved at all like they're just flat right and so massive price increase, no poverty in prison like monopoly right like yes like us what you did. If, if somebody had a monopoly on cheese, that's the same thing you get, you did the same cheese every year and it would cause where we are right, and so is the exact same thing bell and look at It is people get what they want. If people are

happy with the result, then you know sure enough, like people are fine with this level of quality, then sure enough and if they're fine pain, wherever you are fair enough, even if they're fine having their taxes, taxes go up. Consequently, like you know fair enough, but like that, that is the result of a monopoly. Is that that's the case for colleges is different. It's not the the the the the the The government doesn't actually own and run the colleges, but it's a it's. A cartel and it's an oligopoly, is the technical term, didn't really think about it as it's a cartel and it's a government orchestrated and blast, and sponsored and funded tell, and it is really important so that there is basically there's four basically streams of money. Secondly, that end up going to the universities there in the cartel all the current universities about, so that this new state universities get like direct funding right back from the states. But then there's there's there is the other funding to the state institutions. Then there's the funding to the so called private institutions is airports.

for those of you listening on another planet, s version is basically number one is its new student loans subsidies right, and so none of these institutions will be viable right if they haven't by their own financing, which is why that you ve got this federal message that Austrian on from them and as to the federal student loan is based on accreditation and recriminations is run by the government is enforced by the government and so the spacing lighted. The challenge pot experimental, try to start a new college today in the U S and try to get it accredited to be able to get access to the federal student one programme and, like I said that I haven't tried to do that. I don't know enough to say I M the odds of success, a matter I love the. The existing universities would view that as new competition and they try to kill it, they try to make sure it couldn't get access to federal federal funding. That's one second, as there's federal, all the federal research funding right and so for all the schools that do like science and engineering there's always two sides teaching seiners, the research science, and so there's all the federal research funding and again that that's that's a protest. and then there's ebola Rr They are going to give grants people are, they know our programmes, they know

well they're, either only going to do that because, like that's, that's sort of the reinforcing loop and there's there's like a revolving door of kind of who runs these programs also that we can talk about the standard form, a kind of implicit corruption that happens with with these kinds of systems, but then there's also I can you, I don't actually even know the details, but like can you actually get research funding if you're, not an accredited institution like an Nsf, actually issue the grant? I dont know that's the case or not, but I would be shocked if it if they literally candidates, Boris or for bunch of people sudden try to get access, they grant money that they would put that rule in place and soda It's basically look. Here's a thought. Experiment like what. What's the what was the last major new research university that was created in the United States mature now, Nobody knows, because it's been so long right, like it's, been

Well, like I actually, honestly, don't know it might be. Stanford Stanford was eighteen. Ninety like I was, whereas there been one since eighty. Ninety, like I don't know, and so like that, just kind of tells you like the the market. The market is not a properly functioning market like if there is ever been a new entrant in one hundred years later, the markets not functioning properly, I mean even in the car industry. We have Tesla right, like like Isaac at some point, come on like somebody's somebody's and look people have tried this, but like it's an indicative of how hard it is to do it that there ever been, they are going to learn. was in the research funding, didn't well as research funding and then there's two forms of tax breaks that these institutions are all allowed to run as as nonprofits have a very specific kind of blessing that the government gives them and there's too far as the tax breaks, there's there's tax breaks are allowed to and nonprofit at the operating level, I'm an airline to run their endowments, invest them on a non profit basis. and so they may not only have they not only do not have to pay taxes on their actual operating income. They also don't have to pay taxes on their investment income.

And again like try, try to get a new university in place and not only get access to the first year that we talked about, but also get access to. These tax breaks is not a problem by the way you just go to these universities now, and these are big businesses right. These are like you know. They run these like giant sports programs. right that, like I've liking or national audiences, they run these giant endowments another habits: yosemites, doubtless not thirty. Forty billion dollars, big, where these are like bit your huge hedge funds, in others all these programme. Steadily, rising administration it's only ways. It is just in its basically a menace if they gravitation cartel the kind of reinforces all that it has all of the same basic characteristics that you would expect. You know it's a slightly less worst form do not like the basically gave it a monopoly college system is an oligopoly that is

vision, trying to increased at us in rank and then which it is like the pure explanation for why price out cases, inflation yeah. So then you so this region. So these these. This, then, is the frontal. Basically, it there's a very clear formula for basically skyrocketing prices right I used to kind of put a put the put the issue on the table on the tracks that we're on right now and the price of a four year. College degree in the United States is on its way to a million dollars right at that at the top instituted a million. What was at the top institutions has already cleared a quarter million writers over twenty fifty thousand right and, as I stated pointed escalating, much faster than inflation, its unites getting streaming so like it just Polly. Oh, you just need to do it and we can be broken linked with some of the stars were like you, just you just project out the charter. Is this linear rising prices, overtime, far faster than flashing? You just like right it and you can just gonna pick the year when it crosses over a million dollars. and so it's on the one hand, college at four year- college degrees and cost a million dollars. On the other hand, one hundred inch flat screen tv that you

watch Netflix imply video games on is dropping and it was really caused a hundred hours while right in I think I know your answer. This is the very clear like compare and contrast, which is basically why the the colleges are like the ultimate basically monopoly oligopoly. As we discussed flat screen. Tvs are like the ultimate, what they called perfect competition right, there's just like there's just endless competition to drive down the price increase quality of those things, and so we were getting the exact results that we would expect from the systems that were built were just like really angry about it right cause like we. We think it's unfair and unjust, but like it, the system is running as design in both directions. The economic system, That is running as design. Yes, oh, oh, so so so so, yes out any basically say well, ok! Why? Why on earth is this? What is priceless gives directing its basic wages? It's mostly supply supply. Me demands like any market, and basically what what the government does in education is just like what they do in healthcare and it's just like what they do and housing is basically on a two part strategy for managing these markets. They restrict supply right. So the fact that you can't build is we discuss like your basic technically speaking,

and only causes uber in universities and in the same way more and in the end, then subsidizing supply causes price ersite. Restricting supply causes prices to rise. Actual regret is theirs. Markets that want to go to school them Get it until the prices rise and then on the other side, because prices are rising, that creates political pressure which they resolve by subsidizing demand, alright, with taxpayer funding and so is its which, which also causes prices to rise, and so what they're doing on supply side is causing prices to rise, and what they're doing on the demand side is causing prices to rise, and so there's there's, there's twin horses propelling prices to the moon, and there is no sign of any thing that I can see anywhere in the system. I d see nobody pushing back on this note. I start I see nobody in a position of power and authority pushing back on this, so I expected to continue indefinitely very tempted to go into just very briefly the parallels to Healthcare in house. cuts, that's kind of a new idea for me that they are parallel to education. I know that though they are in some places, reason also vaseline by innovation, but I wouldn't be in it.

Is the government restricting supply and subsidies demand for healthcare for housing, just briefly, yeah yeah, so for housing, it's essentially the same, so for housing. It's an end considerably right is housing all the places where people really want to whip rights. This is not really an issue in, like you know, wrapped in a whirlwind consular electoral Arkansas. Something like this is an issue in San Francisco in New York in San Diego in Seattle, and you know I stood and other places where people, what the other places, where there's lots of economic opportunity- and it's always the same housing policy in the housing policy- is don't know how to write like this. again as they say, these are mentally cities are like local monopolies. These studies are local monopolies over their own geography. They got to local players and other attitude towards restoring their heirs was that as takeovers in the form of tax As I do. I have any doubt. This kind of work in the market were basically to people who participate local government- other retirees until you get. This is kind of this very deep inherent conservatism, specific governments, even though these are liberal cities and- The result, basically, is that basic. Basically in those these cities, they ve largely outside the construction, your husband and

There was a just a of this as a guy named Robert Rice, who used to be the labor Secretary under Bill Clinton, has become this, like firebrand liberal activist, he's like an amc kind of type and he's been like railing on the increased cost of housing. You know I'm kind of in public and somebody just found out he lives in Berkeley and because of course, he lives and he said. Well, you just want a letter. He and his wife wrote a local planning commission, basically attempting to kill and you haven't been on and on the street from his house on all round. Would it would ruin neighborhood play the mechanism by which these companies, these cities are all basically but not building a housing. You know they say things. you don't want to ruin. The character is anything like the others, mass destruction and traffic all the stuff, with actually mean as like the city is ours and like we don't want more people to move your and base it again like it's just yet my respected supplied, yeah,

Basically, the government's basically the city level, governments, basically just like they don't prevent new housing get built, says see it as an example. San Francisco is a city with a population a little under just slightly under a million people annual budget by the way of thirteen billion dollars, which is amazing, if you think about what you're getting for your money there and then they authorized average year about six thousand new housing units. Total right is something I think about your company or think about sigma writers. The San Francisco based think about how many people you're hiring like and all of your peer companies are hiring all the big companies are hiring and then think about the idea. There's only six thousand new housing units a year like what you know it's like. What do you think is gonna happen to prices right yep. We go through the roof and then have I and again, because the price of housing rises so fast, because the restrictions apply that creates pressure in the editions right here who need an answer to like what is the government going to do about that? And so their answer is to subsidize demand and that's in the form of all the federal mortgage programs. rather than about that? Ultimately right is what led to the two thousand financial crisis, and that continues right. We continue to subsidize thousand in the: U S and so against. These is these twin forces both driving

the crisis to them without an amending the exact same thing as healthcare is exacting system. And it started then here's the significance, the best, which is just like okay thing to think about for a second, it's like education, healthcare, housing. It's like one of those things all have in common like it's, it's it's! It's like why those three, because if you look at like the charter prices like those three are like the the three outliers initially turns out those three. Those are the three indicators of a successful, thriving middle class. Wow right. What does it mean it's the difference? What's the difference in a country like the US between being middle class or lower class, the difference is I own, a house right in a nice place like in a nice neighborhood to get like. I am able to send my kids to like good schools, both primary and secondary. And I'm able to get health insurance like those are like the three markers of middle class success, and these are the three parts of the economy. The government has decided that we need to send prices to the moon. Okay. So if I was wasn't this until nine, when I graduated from high school

serve reaction would be scrutinise. I don't want to participate in. The system sounds like your advice from earlier on was you might want to reconsider that? I mean because of a nineteen I, how does cover nineteen changes? Is this the wrecking ball here, yeah, so Kobe? Nineteen Cobit Cobit has a bunch of people issues for this, so there's a meme has been going around the internet. The basically says in a video streaming services that flax ten dollars a month to lose five dollars a month. You know whatever HBO match forty dollars a month,

Harvard sixty thousand dollars a year right, and so there's this that the first thing is just like: okay, we're about to find out like to the extent of the colleges actually can't reopen in person, which I think it actually honestly the case for this this year, like I've, said a bunch of them are trying, but I think it's basically helpless with what I'm seeing on the policy side on a on a hillside. Right now, like we're about to find out like it is a good test of I can't really like one of the potential sources of value of college, like it's. A source of value college is what you learn, then. Presumably it has the same value if it's being streamed over video rail buggy right, but because we are no reason to believe that that is the primary source of value because of things like the fact like, It really raises. The question of like okay is: is a video streaming service that costs seventy thousand dollars, even if it has a harbor name attached riders stand for name attached like? Is that actually a thing right, and so that that that that's like a very big and important kind of stress point? There are two other really big and, I would say, stress, points on an unassisted other. Their surfacing really quickly, which is one. Is these

institutions are not designed to run for a year or multiple years with like no revenue like they'd they, just even the ones of the dominoes, are not designed to run that way and most and most most colleges, universities, don't have big announcements. Most of the brethren are running into budgets and Newcastle flow and so how many colleges ears, whatever three thousand colleges, universities in new us. How many can survive with Israel you're with their revenue or what I greatly diminished revenue and like we're about to find out- and I don't know the answer to that, but there are prediction is that this was as many as two thirds them in an economic area. It was an economist named Noah Smith, and he writes for Bloomberg and he's an economist. He has been studying this and if you, if you check his twitter feed, his number writings he's been looking at this in quite a bit of detail. He's he's very concerned about it. So is this the best analysis I know, but like there's, there's quite a bit of concern also clay Christians and who was the creator of odd that in a disruption theory I'm who passed away on. Firstly, recently he wrote books and published a whole bunch of papers on what he viewed a sort of an impending storm in education. Equally important past awakened erect before covered. So we don't know what.

would think today, but I think he was already bearish on the economic future of a lot of these institutions. For all the reasons we've discussed, and I think he would, I think if he were with us, if you read his work out, you can kind of extrapolate forward. So so there's that and then and then there's the overseas student aspect of this which is like super interesting right, which has overseen students in particular the students in places like China, play a disproportionately important role. In colleges and universities, because they pay full freight, yet they don't, although they don't get all the federal student. What loan access and they don't get all the scholarships they pay for, in the reason they pay full load is some combination of value. They want the degree, but also it's it's the way. If you're a rich chinese parent, it's the way to get your kid a visa, you can basically buy a visa by sending them to an American College in Sudan, yeah and, if you like, literally can't get here, because travel is shut down. Right, like you know, If in india- and you know, there's been a worker being sent back,

One hundred percent, so there's been this big wrestling match that the Trump Administration actually move to prohibit overseas, to know basically, students with these visas from, staying in the? U S if they were actually physically going to get. There is a huge fight over that inversely subjected nor that, like again as well as political issues, I won't take a stance on but like to the extent that foreign students can't physically be here to be on cap, as it does raise the question of whether that they will continue to do in Rome these programmes but they of all people are there the presumably least likely to pay seventy thousand dollars for the video feed, as I put it that way, yet they really were paying seventy thousand dollars like they were paying, and so, if you look at the budgets of a lot of these colleges like basically, they they're they're, heavily dependent that they basically charged differentiates for freight and then they basically, the the domestic students are like the last leader was domestic and foreign subsidies. What you're saying yeah yeah, basically right,

yeah exactly right exactly, and so it's like, if I'm, if I'm an administrator at one of these universities right now, and if I'm looking at a year of no foreign students and I'm looking at for a year of no physical campus, like I dunno by the whales on a sports program right, so it's it's, it's it yeah! No, so that this is a this is what this is, what my old CFL uses. It's the shake and bake like this is one of those moments in which everything has been thrown up in the air, and I think it's really really clear where this alliance now how to weigh the most. The most obvious thing is gonna happen is just like a massive it'll, be all right and so must the obvious just like the governmental, just decide a bail out entire system. Because that's what the government does in Denmark there, the taxpayer will pay for it, and so maybe it will be ok in that sense, but but again like if there's like a massive federal bail out, with challenges it once again, it'll be like what happened to Wall Street in two thousand Arabs across the middle class. People ask this question of like wait, a minute like what are retained for, and so I I think that these these topics suite will all get very dramatic.

The next two years would say that you know colleges are shutting down. People are not going as much do you see that? Did you see that basically making us that degrees are equally valuable, more valuable or less valuable in ten years twenty years. So very unclear very unclear well because there are several dimensions to that question like one is just like. Do you like? Basically, you believe there is such a thing as an online degree like look there, there's been a remote learning for a long time like there have been extension programs like their night schools and like those degrees, been worth the same, and so is the video version worth the saint like I'll, say unknown. It's like we're gonna find out. I get it. It's like an x, ray kind of test being applied in the system to see what's actually there. I personally am very excited about, like I'm. I think we should find out but like we might not like the answer. So I think there's that question

by the way, the other interesting thing is in parallel. Basically, the the S, a t, a c t, a g area are all being ejected right now are all being basically pushed out of the system, and again this is a political topic. I won't take a view on for the purpose of this discussion, but, like there's, the view is the view on the left that these these stared. I start basic, thereby asked me to the austrian government with a collar disproportion outcomes, and add that, to the extent that the theory that schools aren't tells us that the admissions process and intelligence test, to the extent that that is true, they are about to toss that out, like they're, just they're. Just getting rid of that like some VC system is getting rid of that Harvard has now dropped the jury entrance exam for their physics, program right though, if they're not doing Jerry Photographers Programme like this is gonna, be dumped across the board and so like that's also happening in real time. To the extent that college and missions wasn't, I just the employers are relying on. That signal is also being a race right now isn't has been deleted, and so we've got this kind of twin question kind of playing out in real time

in terms of like what the app, by the way it was like. What's the value we think about it from the employer standpoint like does the fact that somebody sat in front of a video stream for free It was actually validate, but like their conscientiousness consciousness like that, it seems pretty me It is, unless you know I dunno like it, takes like twenty minutes to write a script that like moves, the mouse on a MAC, so they're like fakes, the fact that you're sitting there paying attention so like was that actually was that actually the person. Who was that her zoom background and right, like that's, not a question? People would have to think about and all of a sudden like it's it's a question by the way. Also, this other fun thing is GMT G P, T three so there's that there Isn t later this year and was called natural language processing, and so there's this algorithm now called Jpg three. That, basically were what is basically a basically isn't it. It can basically right. You're you're a bureau entrance as they for you you're. Not so it's like, what kind of world are we living at like what kind of world are we living in if literally we're taking an educational format that was valid literally like when universities were first created lichens, I got but eat hundred years ago, or something seven under there.

what a standardized five hundred years of university format was standardized before the printing press bright like it was. Basically it's like it's like it's based on, like I dunno, it's like the old monasteries or something right, and so The idea that there is like you know what the guy at the front of the room with like the twenty students in like there's, no talk in a meeting in person and then talking and then the way that they do the tests and all that stuff. You know in the new world like, like, I mean number one, would you ever build an education system today, the same way with the technologies we have now and obviously the answer is no, like you wouldn't believe anything the same way you build everything. Nah, but then there's the like. Okay, we're now going to try to transplant this five hundred year old model into these new technologies. In a way, we're not even gonna be sure that people were actually sitting there, much less, that they actually filled out the exam themselves or actually felt or actually wrote the essay themselves like it is just gonna. It's just increasingly going to provoke all these questions of like what the actual value is. and then aspirational. You a venture, capitalist and entrepreneur like aspirational. It means like this. This ought to be prime time for new models.

And we aren't we make. We talk about testing like we are starting to see those emerged when you're starting to see alternatives emerge, and some of them are very promising, but, like I would say like that, we we like to quote: my partner and I went to court Lenin in as much as again. His word, of course, don't capitalist, twenty or so What's that about he's one said about social change. He said there are decades in which nothing happens, and then there are weeks within which decades happen happened on Twitter went into his linen as one of you This feels like this feels in It's not like there'll, be more change in education in how we think about education and how we fund education in the next five years, and there have been in the last fifty and I think, that's. I think it's gonna be very distressing, but I think it's also exciting, and I think this might be prime time for new approaches. After decades centuries of the same model effectuating we have a period of uncertainty and chaos and for students that are

that and going. Maybe I should take a break from college and try that gap year or try and break or something something else. Some working. For example. I you know what would you advise them with if they are not going to subscribe to the view of like just stick and stick with it and I get a degree yes. So I was, I was teaching down in the run up to do in this session. Is this concept of gap here and our cities and go in the right where I come from? There is no such concepts, and so I've I've always thought gap year is like this rich good thing cause like only rich kids can afford to take that, like the whole idea of a gap year, oh great a year a year, vacation like well, that sounds bicycle use gap years to work too, every other than others that yeah, maybe maybe it's a process of measurement. Maybe you could argue this process maturation, maybe or young maiden, stockpiling, money, actual level Fourthly, on either side of their countries like Israel, where there's a mandatory military service right, and so that's it. You gotta get up whenever it is to your gap here whether you want to do not right I bet and arguably right. Arguably, that's good right for a number of reasons, not least of which is maybe you're actually mature. When you get into college, maybe you actually get more out of college, maybe your

two years, older and maybe more disciplined and more motivated. You know kind of having been in the real world for awhile and so yeah. So I I can. I can see all those arguments and then I think, there's the very specific form of that argument, which is the one that you bring up, which is like okay, if I'm not willing to pay the x thousand dollars for the for the streaming service like okay. What should I do instead? And I think that is like you Know- obviously the the the the purpose of this This video, but also like an incredibly compelling and important question, and so a couple of things so one is there are actually like new programs and so the one and I'm actually not Esther in it, but like as a bit? I once was a friend of mine, so there's lambda there's this, it calls the lambda, which is basically like an entirely new way to basically get is essentially the equivalent of a of a computer science bachelor's degree in a basically any year, without I note with no loan actually free program and then there's was called the income share agreement, as others I programme, which is why we look yeah, there's udacity, which is a company that were involved in that, has sort of a nano credentialing approach where you can kind of pick up skills and there's productions attached to them and there's a bunch of employers that are very excited about. The skills now

you know, there's poor, which is another company. That's done a lot to push forward kind, online college education recently and then there's all these existing kind of extent, like I said, extension, programs and medical programs and so forth. That may be one all of a sudden or more relevant, it's kind of like all the new education methods. Instead of the thing might literally beat like do one of these other things instead you're right and so basically like- it's a year and like let's say hypothetically like, let's even say, you're going to college for music or something like that maybe takes a year and go take the Dat New York or Orlando thing and basically become a computer scientist next year. Right and then basically like, and they got back to school, finish your music degree and now you're a musician who also those computers. There are those kinds of options. and then and then the other option is to actually build something right which is where reserve concerned, but the way to think about that. So you take a brief digression. I've had a housing about that and come back to this gap. Your idea, well. So, basically, like one of the interesting things about the internet is basically it turns out when things become very clear, as they are they're actually

first the internet is concerned, there are like actually two kinds of professions. There are the professions that have the characteristic. We call you can show your work right, and so, where I can whatever it is that I do professor in my field, I can actually show the results online in a way, that's like very clear and compelling, and in like you know, sort of fully valid and then there's the professions where, like I I just can't like it just doesn't make sense so like that would say like professions or it's hard to show your work like heart. Surgeon is like a professional retard to show your work right, like you know, maybe, Maybe you could get permission for the patient with it, but everything else to stream a video of heart surgery, but like you can even evaluate that other than other hurt surgeons, and I don't like us not really how hard surgeons advancing careers and then I don't know you know you don't do. How would you know somebody doing others, lots and lots of fields? I would pick up she also there's lots of feels it might be lower value in which has its own British workers are entitled to see the value, but then you have

fields in computer. Science is kind of always been the leading one on this I would say- or maybe, like writing, has been the main one, but now computer science Ma Ri recently, which is like this- is the whole thing with like open source software like open. Software, like you, literally show your work like you, you write software code and then the software code actually goes on the internet and everybody can see it and you have to as you, as you know. Well, but there is a system called get up, that a lot of people choose to use to kind of put their software and then get up actually has like an internal ranking and rating system for software code and for programmers, and so you can actually build eight. You can build an actual professional reputation as a software developer and get up without ever actually being faced with another human being, and so there are people all over the world today who are basically taking advantage of this. You know to be able to basically build these incredible records, as a software developer make themselves more employable right, because the employers in It s your firm, like we recommend that our employers basically spend as much time on get hub looking for good programmers as they do unlike death or as they do going to tutor to liking apologia, empowered cultures or whatever is Allison.

software development? You can show your work, obviously, creative. Writing anything that involves omit expression. You can show your work. By the way the performing arts, your video music right. All these things animation, you can show you work, you know best be for free which it used to be like any. It used to be. If you I going to be a professional animator or something you might make a short film and, like you know, film school but like you'd, have to get that, like short films. What like on this like weird conference circuit and exhibited to the convention circuit, gives you a bit in like eighteen people. You know at like midnight or something and now you can like put it on Youtube and, like you know, it takes all of a sudden you're. You know you you. Actually it was like literally become like a star based on it, and then it has real professional credentials. cash it and then there's like it. Then there's everything I figured gets. It enters the sort of all aspects of his eyes right hand, so, basically, basically all aspects of design, both a creative forms, a design and then also the engineering firms of design. And so, if there's a real argument that there should be prime time for people who have the kinds of skills where they can show their work to basically buckle down and make something that takes a

in butter buoyancy instead of humans in classes, perhaps Yeah then an invasive. We live in some fields of like design. May it baby, literally petroleum radio, literally the design for failure and then it may also be actually building right. So actually design and build us offer application with all the way to completion rain were or by the way or joint start up right away. This is, as a team joint started, performers start up right, and basically have like you know, you'll get together with like your four are your friends or meet for people on the internet, who are also interested in the same thing or you know whatever or if terrific, the user or something and then all of a sudden you like have a joint project in you're you're It literally made the great thing about the internet. You may never meet right like you, you may never physically meet, but it's actually feasible now to actually do the work, potentially all the way to completion and then really show it and this is just this is like an avenue for career success that just literally was like basically impossible. years ago. I was actually interesting in the creative arts and noticed Angeles, the story of south. This is actually south park. This section, the story of South Park South Park, was the first viral internet video

this is actually. This is actually a big deal. This is actually really funny. So I traced on a at Parker in nineteen. Ninety three there was no video on internet ninety. Ninety three: it was like a brand new idea to do that. They were. These start whatever art school, kids or whatever, and they got hired by an executive Hollywood executives to make basically a funny and very dirty. Basically Christmas card Christmas Card, video and not literally using Herbert Cupboard, animation and enables knows it was the little because the characters is our FARC and it was just like really felt a little curtains and it went like soup powerline internet in, like one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, and it was like another. Whatever I don't know it was like that was what that was ten years before Youtube right. If they did this, but it went viral literally as a code to download and then literally based on that video. They got the contract to make south park. The tv show, which has not been on the air for like twenty years and began a very successful, and so

like they a lot of ways were likes. The origin story for this kind of thing and that's the kind of idea where it feels like we're still in the very front end of that. What's like the best career advice in the world, okay, so that the best book on on a career advice has ever been written, is that Steve Martin wrote His autobiography is called born, standing up and he's basically said the entirety of all career advice that you can ever get basically distills down to one thing which he says be so good. They can't ignore you right. It's basic! It's just like everything else washes out. It's just like the work is so good that, like they can't resist, they have to hire you. They have to get your contract I have to whatever it takes, and so that you don't forget Well, people were on there are a lot of people are talented the world basically like showed off like it'd, be so good. They can't ignore you The thing that I hear from a lot of students who are considering taking some time away from college, whether its working or building there, the folio are all these examples of work. You know, thinking about alternative approaches to education is

I don't love the idea of going on seemed lost all day long, but I also don't love the idea. You know unstructured. because I'm not somebody that has a lot of structure to myself, not very disciplined and and college is a way for me to surround myself with people are inspiring me that are encouraged me to progressing in this way. buddy, who is like extremely intellectually curious, very disciplined about your time. What what tips do you have for students around? okay, so it's called Google calendar, so we talked earlier. We talked earlier about there's. Actually this actually gets in psychology. This is very interesting. So there's this personality trait called conscientiousness. It has what are called two facets, which is there's industriousness which raw energy and a lot of people having allowed people to the country we are talking about. One of cows have a lot of industriousness, but then there is the other side of it which is orderliness right, which is, Basically, what do you line up against basically expectations, writers

Well, like literally it's orderliness, just like me, it's like a core part of your personality where it's like. Do you make your own bed in the morning right? Do you like wash your dishes after you have a meal right, like is your house like we kept up as your lawn kept up. Is your car clean right and like a lot of people like by the way, including me like listening to a lot of people listed. The video were like oh shit, like my car's a mess right like if your car is a mess like you probably are like low orderliness. Because it like honestly it doesn't take that much time like you're gonna write sets its like a bit like a basic areas. Area better meets a base, its basic test, it's gonna people, basically who are referred to this question and all the people who are like they're, smart and creative right and they're, actually industrious and they're, ambitious and aggressive, and they want to do things? but they're just not they just not theirs is not entirely all that orderly. Unlike you said. Basically, one of the things the cows does is a basic poses the structure. It basically can paper opened by the way, a job. Does this also right job jobs impose orderliness also know when things like schedules and deadlines, and things like that and so yeah, so there there is this fundamental challenge, which is now you're on your own by basically what what basically is your is your process,

for whatever level removing orderliness you don't actually have most of us and often by the way, I include myself like me without a calendar is a disaster so, like I I include, I include myself in us and my my my my current bedroom at the left to its own devices, are both just disasters also so, like I, I sympathize with us. and so it literally the best advice. I've ever gotten is literally it's literally Google calendar, and so it's literally gonna pick your choice by Google, Google Google's a good one, and it's free and basic. basically is schedule. Everything this is the part where everybody immediately starts. Howling cause they're, just like. Oh my god, that's the opposite of how I want to live, but it actually is that the answer is actually schedule everything and here's the key, as you start by scheduling all the stuff that you actually want to do right. So you start by scheduling your free time right. So it's like I'm we're going to work for whatever like for me. It's like I'm, not gonna work from like seven eleven at night, okay, seven, eleven and night or free time, like that's just on schedule right. But then I also schedule eleven PM bedtime read like so that's why you know and then there's that and then this is a wake up time and then I spent all ok. Then I scheduled for me to work for my gate to five. I actually schedule what I meant

and by the way I don't I I have a to do list, but, like generally, the goal is, keep things off the to do list put them on schedule right, and so it's basically like get everything off that I think, that, on the counter in a slot right and then basically like during the work day and what you do whatever it s, just the other disease. You said the data like just do those things, but do those things that will end at whatever time. You I have an end and then you will go get to do the other things that you want to do, spend time with friends or with your spouse with a partner or go for a run or watch tv or what it like. Literally schedule, watch tv write schedule play video games right and then look this isn't like a silver bullet, because, like you, you still have the challenge of like you're in schedule hip, but I just find for me. The big racer was like it's a lot easier to like force myself through a lot of stuff. I don't want to do if I know that, there's a big block of time coming up down the road, it's like my reward, during those things which is like, I should get to do what I want, and so I think I think that's that's it lives. It is the best method anybody seen so far

it come to the end of this conversation, seven beers by the time. I am curious, a lot of people that are watching this likely and are people that once containers and they're likely wondering okay well, but will he put his money where his mouth is? Will mark andreessen Horowitz, where they actually fund me. If I'd and up dropping outer focusing for a I checked. It ends up going. Well, you know by Sunday definition where it seems promising with the meat dropping of college without be, a reason why it wouldn't find me. How do you but our houses on yeah, so that I would say that good news on that, as we don't really care like, I can't even I dont think we ve ever had a discussion, I think we ve had a discussion of. Did this person finish college? I don't think we've ever had a discussion about there. There is some signal you do hear a lot. It's like, okay, that, like the people who went to the programs that are like unusually good you know the conversation we utterly relating to certain. For example, the bitter signs for grants are just like our standing there. Nobody else can it and it is clear that data

There are cases, yeah. I did you finish, not necessarily die, you know, did you it s? A good news is that they are so much does not so much the factor by the way it everything went, we never win. We have no idea what AMOS s it he's words are. We have no idea is it we do know with the gps, but it's funny. We always worry about the cancer perfect GPS as founders, because it's like are they kind of too orderly like? Are they too? Are they to gather too much little followers right as it's like? On the one hand, they demonstrated that they're, like really smart and really conscientious, on the other hand, is like that and then started they. Let fall unrolls rake as it got inside of you. Do you really want you're onto printers you find a bit like rule followers like us out a good idea as a venture capital is the star January, but We don't. We know we never we never look at us. It is worse racy to your dear you're in any that, that's a good news. The bad news is looking at everything else.

Right and- and everything else is basically like. It's basically like it's basically like what have you actually it? It is. What have you actually done? It's like what what what art, what what? What reason do you have? What reason do we have to believe that you actually have the skills and experiences and basically capacity to be able to do stuff required to build a company, and the thing that we always pointed out in this gets this. This topical. It gets going to highly contentious an intermediary, but the thing we always point out is a lot of entrepreneurs, especially these days. Ensure capitals becomes very public concept like people used to not even really I never even knew about it until I came to calculate I never even heard of it until I moved to California, but now now everybody knows about it. and so there's this view of like somehow the threshold of being like success, successful entrepreneurs raising venture capital- and I always point out- and you can you can talk- you can talk to any young you're a great case study this, but you can talk to any foreigner who has actually built a successful company raising it's! The easy part right like the vcs are like sitting there like. We sit there every day, like waiting for, like the next mark Zuckerberg, to show up like my money. Was it your job to give out money the job exactly

the job again up money and like the big problem we have is we don't have enough people coming into like have all the skills and attributes you know to be able to build these? police sounds like we're, we're just we're in constant despair that there are enough people for us to find who have those skills and attributes. The reason for that is because erase the money from us that only begins all the actual work right, because all the actual work is building an actual product that somebody will actually pay for figuring out a way to actually sell it to them actually collect the money we service the customers, so they actually have a good experience of the refs will actually tell their story so that anybody will even know that they exist. You know, run up finance functions, they don't like lose all the money run illegal function, so they don't get sued all the time right. All the things involved, recruiting actually get anybody else to ever work with them. It's like a really like fundamental thing, and so the the the the the the challenge we always have is trying to explain to include a confrontation with a challenge always is like look like you know. We love you but

it honestly like they're. You know we just have not yet seen in you that you can do that. You can do some side of those things and, of course we can take fliers on some of those things like some of the time and nobody ever comes fully formed, but like we can't just take like a raw flyer on on on on anything and now that said, the number one thing as a first time founder to get funded is a working product right so that the general rule of thumb is like if you're, just like a brand new kid in the industry and, like you, haven't built anything in Utah for venture funding, generally you're going to be very disappointed, cause like there's a million of these like great your your your your your mother, loves you, like you know, It got a there's. Another thousand of you like right down the street, like I dunno what to do with us but like. If you were a kid he's heard of any show up with like Facebook, dot com and its working right. Like that's, that's like shit, that's a thing right! That's it! answer this. This is why, like the Martin think so much be so good, they can't with a way to be so good. They can't ignore you for venture capitalists come in with a working product you're a sixteen de for

company was in or you want to be in a sixteen before the company. Should you require a college degree when you hire somebody, so that is a very rapidly changing topic for the reasons we've discussed, I think Google actually just dropped the requirement altogether for college degrees and probably the most of the other major employers are going to follow, and that is a really good question it it. It begs again- and it begs the question of what was it good for in the first place right and especially like I said once they finish dumping the S, a t, a c t like that it'll be interesting to see kind of what MR that part of the signal. If these in our people cannot go to college gaunt, capital is a basic question was what happened to the to the consciousness metric and then and then really. The question is like on the other side. Right is like ok like what what then will the players to actually be looking for right? What? What is the thing that, though we value in judging, and so when we talk about a lot of this, but I think it's gonna be like ok alternate credentials like. I think there is a real opportunity here. Obviously, as I said it, s he's like our companies in this work cited about, but there are others like lambda their will.

new potential that what could be taken very seriously. Google about illegal has also. I would say that it has been it's a certification program, especially interesting. We've been doing these math competitions forever as a sorcery mechanisms, so they have these math and coding puzzles and at least in theory, they'll hire the winners of those kind of essential place, essentially sight unseen. I think, and so the new version of that they're kind of standardizing. That sort of got this like coding, credential. I saw something where it's like three hundred dollars or something, and if you can basically pass this coding test, they'll basically consider to be the same thing as a as a bachelor's degree in computer science, or so it made me it's another was like an employer breeding ground for something I think is gonna happen. So new external credentials, new internal credentials. and then I think employers like, as I said, we've been encouraging our companies to focus a lot on. This show the work thing yep, and so I get up in particular, you'd get up used to be one of our companies now all but Microsoft get up in particular

it's become a major financial, independent of all the rest of this for hiring software developers. It's a suggesting to an entrepreneur would be look for people that have a great you know basically could have presence or portfolio versus people who necessarily want to like the most ratings go unpunished. Well, think about think about the pros and cons right, because the question is like okay for the show your work stuff, it's like, okay, that first, presumably that actually is good. I q test records. Like you know. Basically, people have to be smart to like write good code and have to do it size up. So that's like that probably has an embedded. Is there a conscientious there's text embedded in there? Maybe right you know, or maybe the maybe it's an artist who's, just like really a discipline but got like one had one really creative thing and maybe they're gonna be a great artist, but maybe you wouldn't want to actually have them work for you. So there's like a you have to kind of again you have to kind of probe in I'm like okay. What what actually do you know that said? Look on get up. People are building real track records on conscientiousness, so you don't get up. You can actually see like how much code they've made and over what period of time or how many chickens and endless like you know. It's like like number of lines of code is not.

The metrics that we measure good software by but like, if somebody's checking in code every day for five years right like and it's code that is building like a successful project and sale, and you can kind of see the quality of the work like at that point. You've proven more than any college degree could possibly Well, I guess I say this if you're, specifically that this is where most of you for the question. What a software developer do than to put his is unquestionably. The answer is open source right, questionably. The answer is: go basically create an open source project or go become a member of an existing open source project and makes us successful, high quality, sustained contributions to that project. Over time- and that's like that, then I think at this point I think that's clearly a better credential than getting a computer science degree and I've hired people like that. Myself, like that, that that makes tremendous sense in any course degree now you can do that mode of the world, and so I think, that's great and that I'll defer to you on the design front of you probably know more than I do but, like I think, a very similar phenomenon is starting to happen for sure, and there are just designers were hired entirely on this basis that we are not actually

yeah. You probably know this video games and you know there's this whole argument. There's video games there's whole community and basically basically amateur basically game designers and your model, a model levels, am an arbiter, basically user generated. Basically, you sort of are expansion, packs with these games and actually the game. Companies have been hiring more aggressively recently out that modern, an independent of any lack of any financial. So that's what they got a great example. So this conversation in brief wide ranging, if you leave a scene I mean it's either considering college or I'm in college. Right now, with you know a quick piece of advice. What would it be?

if you're in college like execute any opportunity. So, like I mean honestly, do not take the hardest to take the hardest course loaded can like you, don't want to get a good JP aid, but like basically try to get the skills right, try to get as many the skills that, by the way in the process of plenary we haven't talked about. But, like you know, look at you wish. But this way, if you're going to get my advice, is getting getting older or something from us have sneer from such a college and unique settled with others that, like at least, are taking coding classes like certain certainly like started like layer and the skills and take full advantage of the opportunities and so yeah you know, met maximize that and then, if you re looking for these alternate pass it is why I started with reputation the kids go to college, which is like if you're taking these ultimate paths like just be very clear, eyed about what you're actually getting right. So it's you know with these new credentials. You know with er with the work We're going to do like the kind of thing that you're going to work on like so, for example, if I'm much I'm gonna work on open source, would I be better off making minor contributions to five projects or like a major contribution? One project like me make this is the second one make a major contribution to one project? Is that really demonstrates whether what they're looking for and just be kind of

itself in the mind of what, how somebody's going to evaluate you, three or four years down the road and then basically apply against that awesome mark. Thank you. So much, it's been really fun conversation good. Thank you.