Adam Grant returns to discuss his new book Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know. Adam is an organizational psychologist, professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and TED speaker. Adam discusses how to open people’s minds, the psychology of maximizing and satisficing, and the advantages of imposter syndrome. Adam weighs in on a disagreement between Dax & Monica, explains the dangers of desirability bias, and the different modes of thinking: preacher, prosecutor, and politician. Adam pitches building a competence and character political party while Dax shares one of his self-fulfilling prophecies.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome, welcome an armchair expert experts on expert on Monica pad men and joined by Dax Shepherd what a stupid name. You have, sir. I like you Oh my god, I'm broke my guy now it has had a headset injury. I think lollipop over there and I thought you earn vertebrae had become a disconnected, but knows I think it is just the headphones on it. It was allowed and scary embryos are all of us into your router bravery. Ok, I listen. If you listen to the show boy. You hear us talk ad nauseam about this guess we just her head over heels in love with him. His name is Adam Grant and he's organizational psychologists, a professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and TED Speaker who helps people find
meaning and motivation at work. He has also booked probably twenty percent of our guests in twenty twenty. He knows every person on earth. He too had. He helps us talk to them. It's he's incredible. He really is. He has a new book out, of course, its intriguing and provocative and fun. It's called think again, our of knowing what you don't know which invest the gates, how weak and embrace the perks of being wrong, harness the surprise the advantage of impostor syndrome, bring nuance into political charge, conversations and build schools, workplaces and communities of lifelong learning. Please enjoy our good friend Adam, Graham
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number one meal, kit and boy: do they have some bangers Monica? Can I tell you when I got into last night? Yes phrase, I wanted something really satiating, oh, so I with a non chew, inspired Crispy crust chicken served
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That's so bizarre does not now Yo Yo. The simulator. I guess somebody white, my memory of all the other times. We forgot them, but we may multiple times a week. I'd say: yeah, I'm going through withdraw. I have not got the Monica email me at least to excite acts. I probably behind a shift in the year. I am not the strongest z mail or on the team. That's for sure well why emailing beat all hard who the hell did. We just interview a friend of yours that we were interviewing It is most of the. But we re now seventy five percent to be more interview. I must have a dove yes CS as somebody who sent me an email before I even listen to it. Saying hey. I just heard your name again. You won't talk about me way too much your way to nice. I'm gonna try to fix that this time, I'll get it, but now you can answer this debate which, as I said you know, Monica, does not think that what I said you know there's some little part of Adam when he responds in one second or is like yeah
the point I want to know you heard listen to that. I laughed hard at that. I actually lined up some interest there ready to go after this and I'm not going to be like Fakir Dac shower. I know more important people than you do making you feel much shorter than your six three as usual azured. Everyone needs to do it. How are you doing? Where are you? What's your emotional state right now, good. All things considered, I mean my basement recording studio in Philly suburbs ends. Basically have not left this house since March of last year. a true you haven't travelled. I think the further steps on his maybe an hour and a half dr once or twice relay yeah. We really having gone anywhere. Are you someone that in general has wanderlust or no now not at all. Ok, The thing that I miss is the energy of living there
action and live audiences. Yeah yeah s tail and what about teaching Achieving work is interesting virtually so I think the highs are lower because it doesn't like the same performance right but There are two things that really loved one was guest. Speakers were suddenly available from anywhere in the world, same over here. Yeah guess eight. You just keep, coming up in the world will have highlighted the guess you ve had the whose view of the World WAR right, I dont, think Bill gates would have travelled to the attic. Something tells me that would never gotten scheduled or Hillary Clinton. For that matter. I understand invited himself though so I'm pretty sure he would have happened yesterday it was cool and then the other thing I really love is the chat window I had deeper and richer conversations that I've ever had in the classroom before, because instead of calling on a random person with her hand up, I to see everyone's questions. We are its hashtags and class. Here you can taken your question, but I also had people put in hashtag debate. If they
I disagree with me or a classmate, and so then I could actually move conversation forward. We had also people with a hashtag aha if they had an insider Eureka moment. So we could capture that for the club, is really fine, just as the conversation build. So that was the other highlight now, My only experience with this is a zoom and occasionally there's chat going to my thought is like I can't tie that whatever part of my brain is required for, dexterity of it all. I can then listen, so I have to bail out. So how is that working? Like your mid lecture people just taken up a storm oh my god, that's it says, that's a good point, that's email, and I'm completely taken out of where I was. I don't know where I'm at everyone had manners. There was no inappropriate stuff, not that I saw okay because I brand, whose teaching seventh grade are over zoom in may get its terrorism Emmy kids join in, they yelled terrible Disease Michigan.
all. They were the other, most God awful thing, or they type here and there may get out in its like. We least this happens a couple times Sesar. I think, by the time there at the college level, they mostly automatic adults you at all, do we ever learn how to act like adults there I mean we get better faking vesture. That's just wait here, Are you both catch me up? Monica we're grades were just lucky cashmere, like you said, we ve been able to still do this and still have amazing gas, and we have gone on a few vacations. then our pied, so we stopped travelled a tiny bear.
I was travelling for top gear, but we had to drive everywhere and nowhere in insulated pod we're getting test of four times weeks, so that got us over to Sedona, which was exceptional earlier. We did the best stargazing of our life. I was relieved to find out. I don't need a device to be entertained. I was starting to question whether it had damaged my attention and we lay down the road in front of the house every night for a couple hours just staring at stars, and it was really am yeah. so I was encouraging because I horrendous wanderlust. I cannot not have something on the calendar that I'm looking forward to, or I just collapse this rough. I can see at other just listening, the two of you talk to these gas, and each other. It seems that armchair expert, is something you both look forward to our really I'm not exactly. I agree it is in that shameful yeah I haven't. Does he has more out of you? You right is the most perfect job. That's ever been invented, and I love it with my whole heart and I also think like
can I be doing this wall stargazing or I think you know, I can always think of a way to make this wonderful thing a little bit better on the opposite of a Buddhist. Well, it is funny because you have the bed on earth, and here you are saying well, but it's not enough, and it makes me think about the cycles. maximizing and due notice languages now now tell US tincture classes organization, whose original ideas from Nobel Prizewinner her Simon by the search that. I love on this is very short and she nay younger and their colleagues. Where are they yesterday about your tendency to be more of a maximizing satisfies there. When you make decisions satisfies sir, the ass satisfies. MRS Mathieu eyes. Ok, that's a weird work, but continue. It is weird, but it grows on you over time sharing. So if you're a maximize are when you make a decision, you are looking for the best option of yours That is why sir you're more interested in good enough, Ah, oh chasms, more tenable. Well, I think it's
interesting tradeoff, because one of the studies they burying and China dead ways of college Senor searching for jobs and they feel at this scale, so the maximizes agree with statements like when I'm listening to video. If I hear a song, I like I'm in a still keep for pink channels, hating stations, as you have something better is on car, can relate they would agree with. I treat relationships like clothing. I expect to try and a lot before I find the perfect fit I don't think this person My law are either, which is kind of surprising as when you first entered. I thought I would be there, but not when you're, not those two things, but I think I could give a couple examples of times where I read your total maximize her yet like give on because looking for houses she would ever see a pretty house that meets our needs and stop? She wants to find you having? I bet you found the best. How possible. I did, but it really is the best house that was on the market, but I didn't see like four
the house is- and I didn't after this one thing, but what if is a better. I didn't think that always like this is the one. Well one other also a montague doesn't have a truck. She needed my assistance in buying a bad. I went with her. but then she was lying on all these different beds and I said, tell me which one before the salesman gets involved, that you think is most comfortable and she said: ok after a dozen beds, this one's definitely most countries and then, like it, three option. Then the salesman came over and we're talking to him. How much is this when all its x amount of dollars? I would just then one over there. Let's three x ECHO is literally goes, was really comfortable. They seem totally. Events is of the utmost more accountable, even though we already did it without prices blind massively affected, how comfortable she thought that bed was ok, so I have a few hypotheses here. I gotta go there's about we all maximize more in decisions that are important to us and
Monica you might be a house person or a bad person, Moline yeah yeah possible right a second thought is maximizes usually are defined by two things: one is impossibly high standards and looking for the best or the perfect choice, the other is In order to get there, I have to consider is many options as possible. I'll see how he loves me. Now. I think that's it that is you, that's the power to actually get you in trouble at the data. Show that if your college senior searching for jobs, if you're maximizing You will do better in the job search you get more, where'd you get a higher salary, but you actually are less happy with that better job. you got because Europe's ass, if there was a better one out there, yeah you're, always wondering what could have been, if only I had ordered the soup.
Started the salad. My whole life would have been different. Word seems particularly plague people in relationships. I definitely think that's what happens if people are constantly evaluating like is it I get the best option out there for me, then they think you fall for the illusion that their meeting other people that would be a better fit for them all, say, there's going to be just a little bit of data for you, I'm always because whenever I get so, if I order some on the internet and then it comes in and is not at all what that thing was on my aunt fine, I don't return anything all live with anything. I have total p so once I have, the clause is something you don't care about according to Adam, maybe that's just some on your list. You, I think, I'm good with like were very land. I dont been going. I shouldn't get this house, it's really noisy here on the road on my gear, whatever. That is what it is about part I move on. I need you the key phrase which, as you said, perfect fit for me
isn't maximizes tend to forget about this idea of fit right. They walk around making them. There is such a thing as a perfect job or the perfect husband or wife roar the perfect place. as opposed to saying no I'm looking not for best, I'm looking for the best fit. but just to clear up any uncertainty Dax. You clearly marry that perfect person. Does anyone Mary the perfect person, I know a lot of people who if that christian values, a perfect human being, who know extremely well, there's many millions, there's no grassland. Yet though people don't shut the cupboard doors behind her and they don't have the razor thrown in the trash. For no reason by her, I kind of reject that premise, I would say boy: how do I phrases were America? Doesn't hate me a person or persons persian. No human is a breeze to be with it's always a compromise. It's always a challenge. Euro is working hard to me get all work. Everything. That's
wait about. Her also puts us at odd she's, very, very strong, wailed she's industrious, she's a decisive. If I didn't put up a fuss we would just be on the Kristen Bell: train traveling down the tracks without anyone looking at the map and I'm the same way. I am the same pain in the ass and I think it's a lovely fit in that we challenge each other nonstop and we both grown each other's virtues and away from our care defects by It's not like we met and was a perfect by no stretch tons of work, and I think I just would want to publicly dispel the illusion that we met shook hands and then it's been easy. Cuz, that's not the case. I appreciate that and I think this but at the maximize or myths when their choosing crew they want to marry or choosing what they want to do with their lives, as they think the job is to find the perfect person as opposed to building the best relationship they can rights. Yes, I also have this theory and I feel like this flies in the face of it. Monica hates this theory.
I believe anybody I done up on a desert island with. I would love I'm certain of it you need to have some standards here exactly. I would love any human being that I shared my life with on this island. I know what I would find out how to, and I would accept that this is who I was with, and I would make the best version of it and I every human beings lovable. If you really want to two, I would let them an experiment if we can send you do a desert island. I have some people that I wanted to tolerate is the first that living in my life to agree to this. I am in fact the coastal states, but the other I would say on that is I think that attitude that mentality is why people love the two of you and loved this show so much. There are many reasons I think why you're so beloved, so one of my favorite is, is that I came across was writing? Think again, was this phrase the inverse charisma. Oh,
It's this quality that add biographer first used to describe a writer M, Forster and she's. That he had verse, charisma, that he listened to you with such curiosity such attentiveness there. He brought out your most charismatic self. I think that's one of you gifts on the show Dax Monica is how'd you do this over and over with guess. You make every guessed you bring on more interesting and more likeable. Then they thought they were capable of being that's your child. Now you I like that complement those eyes may is much more admirable that regular charisma. Why, or is this about my friend Scotty Johnson, you I started modeling my behavior after my twenties. I was like everyone love Scotty every girls and lovers Scotty. What is Scotty doing these clearly q but another, sure Gander. Do it by the way Lanceor by our supper. I do love Scotty right yeah. He
he has a genuine. Why believe? Its genuine? as so many questions when it meets rebel, and I just started noticing it, and I was like me, and I gotta do- that. I gotta stop trying to impress all these people in on a log and I got to engage in asked them about themselves and it's such a huge gift he gave me it's amazing to listen to you and I was the Saint Pierre Interview with Clinton and I came out of it thinking Is it an organizational psychologists? The experiment I want to run here is. I wanted take some of those audio clips. I want to change voice tone, so you can't tell that it's her. And I want to ask people who are very anti Hilary just to listen to it and see if they like this person, exactly I gonna Gloweth might take away. I was like this is the quote on likeable per said that she was labeled over and over again like she's, so like a ball a while I'm in love with her own that interview ended. I said it's one of the few times that if she had said forget you
how to fly here and have dinner with me I'll, be like. I am on my way to the airport. I would just love to yes, it showed wondered seventy times what you're thinking, because he must have felt this tension between? I have so many questions. I want to ask what else this one, a watched dax in this mode of being mesmerized total We also. We only had so much time would turn we could have talked or for sixteen hours. So it was a balance bows just like I just can live. We were staring at her face. It is hard to comprehend. Ok, now back to maximizes and the word I'm satisfies US supervisors. their eyes. Advisers spawned is advisers. I don't know why. I'm ok, yeah so Monica wants to know how to sail touched on MAC advisers and then tell us about. saw this virus. I mean it's early if you ve a reverse everything I just said. I think everybody here satisfies saying anything: well, that means you have low standards. Now you don't have to have low standards.
You get to decide what good enough for you. and so I think, as far as I know, the key to balancing happiness and success is to be a high standard satisfies sir and say look, I'm an aim extremely high, I'm gonna be ambitious in my goals, but once I find option that meets my standards. I'm not gonna, keep looking and- wondering about what might have been. What year, you could almost raise this same study in two different ways which is like compares and non compares. It almost seems to correlate perfectly with that like few comparing your enjoyment of this thing against your previous enjoyment of other things, you're, probably going to land in a satisfied place but of Europe? comparing your enjoyment of it to the perceived enjoyment of the other thing? You're fucked nine times out of ten that exactly what the research shows actually,
doesn't grads go amiss again at a student Keenan who had that exact question. He wanted to know. Why are satisfies there's so much happier the maximizes and he wanted to know. Is it because of social comparisons or is it other differences like the number of options you consider and he found that is one of the key drivers why's that atomizer is only knew if they got the best by knowing that they did better than everyone else. the problem is: you can never be better than everyone else. There's too many people yap seven billion to many people, also. There are too many dimensions right. I can imagine getting better than everyone at one tiny thing. And then what about everything else in life and by the way You start the tiger documentary at no. I have Ah per second, I thought you were a reference in your future role as Tiger now. The Tiger woods documentary that started on HBO last week. I have not seen it yet. It's fucking,
incredible and then you're looking at maybe the purest example ever of someone being definitively the best ever in such a fashion. That there's no arguing it and What are you left with in its very very sad story in so many ways, he I think there is a sense in which is we have four to be a little bit of a maximize, or at least in your sport writer, in your field. If you want to get that good, when I've met a limb, God, medalists none of them had ever had the goal I wanted. The good enough fist applicant is always I want to be the best, but he was like our a demons. They come from that to even here take me by surprise in one of these early interviews. I think we're right when he joined the pro tour. They asked him what his goal was and he did not say to be the best on the two of you said. I want to be the greatest to ever play this game. I was like, oh my god. I wouldn't even think like that. You know the greatest of all time to have ever done the wild
in order to meet that you need a time machine and you have to go into every future to make sure that nobody! Yes, yes, yes, yes, then your accumulating more Graham slams or whatever in you're wondering wall is comparable. We I dont, have a Jack Nicholson and Bernal Palmer. All these dumb things yeah not for me. Ok, again the power of knowing what you don't know the power of knowing what you don't know. It starts as a paradox right. How does someone know they? Don't know it reminded me, DR this right. I remember, reading early early in college ninety years ago did soccer he's gotta the Oracle of Dell Fee and mace you're, the smartest man in the world, because you know you know the least or something along those lines, municipal, three thousand year old concept, right yeah, I mean the version of the court get stuck in my mind was, I know, I'm intelligent, because I now I know nothing it is a paradox, so
by way of tackling this was to say look. We have a lot of over confidence in the world, what we this humility. I just think that it would be a more interesting place if everyone was aware of how ignorant they are. the auto yeah in my efforts to figure out the all the things I dont know I literally started can be a list. I made a list of all the stuff, I'm completely ignorant about and things are easy because spouse and makes fond of me all the time- and I shall mention the name of a singer who I'm sorry, how did you sleep through the eighties? What I know nothing about music, my dog Adam. I mean I've heard of her active and everyday rear or of her story, but it goes down hill pretty fast. I think that I didn't realize that David billions and you start us where the same person. Ok, and she was Did you tell her that I never heard of Zig stardust, but those kinds of moments happen and I had the same experience with fashion with food and the opposite of affinity. and so then I just kept out into the list. Every time I was either stun. It was almost like
they triviality moment in France? You know how he just nods and smiles yeah. You guys are in your own here, but yeah, that's on your list ran yeah. I know another. We just had the rest of the conversation about friend deserve, but there's that image is frozen into my brain of Joe you just having no idea what anyone is nodding and smiling, and we all have those moments and we usually try to act like we know what we're talking about what I've. are you doing instead is jotting them down afterwards. And saying. Ok, when did I feel like that, I felt like that people were talking about financial markets and economic policy. I mean some of them are really broad domains, but others are really specific, like I realized something that I'm just ignorant on that, I really want to figure out, and I still can't is why If you have a british australian accent, does it go away when you think, oh yeah. We were told recently last week, vaster british singer and they had no clue either
linguists, it's a mystery. I think they did have an answer. I think it was one reason, Is there in when says are often american? So when there are learning to saying- and they have like you know, Those sounds in their head. A comes out a little bit more generically american unlike singing is so how you shape the back of your mouth and stuff, but I think it all and a kind of sounding somewhere if you're good food some interesting explanation. I wonder if it's true we should find out. What can I was in fact absolutely. right now, I'm gonna ethical quandary. Why go August was a part of the same interview and I don't recall that answer at all times no return
The exact figures may go to remember the now. Oh I do know it was Keith Urban, ok Keith Urban I'll go back and our interests. I dont remember him saying that, although you might have a specifically been saying he was in a country and he was getting in the country, so he yeah was mimicking country british, rock and roll the very beginning of rock and roll well Porsche Bury. But you know what I'm saying I don't act keep going here list, but yet, first huge rock bans are the Beatles and then rolling stones and so on and sought singing in what I would say sounds american affected and they remembering anyone they weren't copy. Maybe it's just our ears. We think it sounds american cars or obsessed with ourselves. I really want to get to the bottom. with this and I'm hoping that we can figure it out between us,
so Adam these things to me, sound ease It's you know like anyone who can't we're gonna cargo yeah. I don't know how to work on a car. I think, what's order is all the things we think we know the Dunning Krueger a fact right where we think we're smarter than we are, and we think we know more about it, and we are victims of confirmation by us, and we see all the time evidence that were correct. That to me is the area, or I know I have to being so wrong all the time, and I can see it yeah, I'm afraid to say that spreading right, so Dunning Krueger affects one of the things we learn from. It is the people who are the least Legible, are scale The domain are the most likely to overestimate their expertise and I think the
an explanation the David Dunning gives for. Thus, although there are multiple explanations, is that when you lack the skills to produce excellence, you sometimes also lack the skills to judge excellence. Ah, but there is a key, which is to your point, Dax. It's not the complete beginner who's ever confident person who knows a little bit near the Dac shot in the arm chair, I think the football analogy is so clear if you gather a bunch of your friends who are football fans for a Super bowl party, the You know, who knows the least is the most likely to be screaming at the carriage saying you got the wrong way: yeah, yes, but the person who you know anything about. Football is obviously not going to do that and I think the challenge is when you start to get experience, or you start to gain knowledge, your confidence, hence arise faster than your competence does
and you have to find a way to keep those two tracking together and my favorite way to do. That is to keep your confidence a little lower. Your company as opposed to trying to match them? Well, I see two potential catalyst for the guy at the football game so one would be me, so I know very little about football. I'm that around these guys you seem to know everything about football, so I know my foot, are things and I wanna get those four things out into the EU are also there. I can fool that right is so that would be one based and basically insecurity, not arrogance. there is one that's base completely and arrogance, which is why I totally fucking others game. I know four things about it, so it seems like there could be done. motivations for it. I would love to see that Daddy, actually, because I dont know that anyone's really to use those two things apart. So one is about your image and trying to impress on an audience the and the other is about you. Actually, not knowing what you don't know, right ones and insecurity, and one to me seems like confidence. Can I read you all they did in this study was shouted
prior written for two years before the Dunning Krueger study this discharge rogalski the problem, with the world. Is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence yeah? can we find a nail their right and one line eyebrows crushed it good job, because key, that's amazing. I think that new once there is, if you take that occurred on its face, it sounds like our intelligent people and stupid people, my rate of the Dunning Krueger effect is. We all have moments of being the idiots shot, because we all have situations where we don't know what we do now and, moreover, confident because the little knowledge we have you everyone. Big gaps and blind spots? That's the thing I worry about is as easy to laugh at someone when their overconfident. There obviously ignorant- and we forget there probably a time in the last week or two, where I was that first
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that's a landmark paper came out late nineties. and it really got traction early, two, thousands, okay, so because Its relatively recent twenty five years are something we can track. Yet if it's effect, its increasing or decreasing right, but my hunches, its increasing. Do we know it. All I haven't. a study. I think it would be therefore, even to see, if has changed over the last five ten years, and the irony of this is we have more information. It is not that hard to run a google search and find out that you're wrong about a lot of stuff. But no, you already know the answer to this, but I want to wanna theorized for a second cause itself on to do with you or what I would immediately imagine is that, because we have the technology to exist within bubbles in silos, we, only communicating with other people who have the same blind spots, so we're getting farmed regularly that our opinions are correct. That so it makes me think it has to be dramatically on the incline. Is we're not even exposed any more to the opposed,
in opinion or the opposing data, by which, oh I don't know anything about that somewhere, only listen to each other There are some truth that I think the filter by problem, where the echo chamber problem, I think about it really. Now, then I did when I started writing. Think again, I went in thinking. Ok, we ve gotta. Let people see the other side yeah- and that is going to be the solution to the polarization problem actually think it's part of the problem well well well, anyway, while ok, while now we're getting controversial, I wanna hear the army to so here's the issue a moment that you say, there's another side, your falling victim what psychologists call binary bias which is you're taking a very messy world that still continuing with lots of shades of gray and your carving up and turning it into a black and white, and that exit, really easy to say, look I can create a caricature,
the person on the other side, and they are obviously wrong and I can debunk their arguments in my sleep and vat. Yes, I get to, can confirmation bias. I validate my existing knowledge. I feel proud of what I know. I think my tribe is air and then we're done. I think the added herb, I should say the into doubt, because that would violate the very principle of trying to talk about by one of the candidates is too complex, defy and say you know what there are actually many different sides to this issue and instead of saying look, it's just a heads or tails coin. You actually look through a prism and say You know this is complicated and there's a brilliant, so experiments by a psychologist, Peter Coleman do brings people together, difficult conversations about topics like abortion and Emily assigns them to read both sides of a different issue. So they say Veronica. Guerin Dax had opposite views on abortion. He wants you to come together and see if you can get on the same page and before then the abortion conversation
ass? He read a both sides. Article on gun control is only gives you the gun rights and then the gun safety argument and after You mean that both sides- article you have about forty five percent likelihood of being able to write a joint statement about abortion with some areas of agreement, which sounds good exe. There's another version of the gun control article that he could give you. That raises your odds of agreeing abortion to a hundred percent. I mean it's really simple all the same information, only instead of saying here is where pro gun rights. People thank hears, led programme safety, people think it says the gun, control issues really complex and their allotted from positions, everybody it agrees background checks, for example, by Van we'll have very different views on concealed carry, and so you are get the same information but its presented as having continuum as opposed to two categories Of a sudden, you realize how nuanced complex your views are, and you are my
more open minded around rethinking what think and also hearing what the other person has to say Why am I am so glad this is what you're thinking about, because my express desire Monica I talk about all the time. More than a care by any one of the actual issues politically that I care about. I'm sorry, much more bothered by the right. holes were all stuck in. That scares me much much worse because there's no product, it can come of their edges. It's my number one concern actually above my position. On abortion, organ safety or this for that. I want you'd away in now on a disagreement Monica I had about a week ago. You're, always our mediator, Gaia I'll get my. point was, I think, it's a ludicrous that people in a buyer of their social media will write liberal or conservative. I'm like nothing.
I could tell you less about a person you ve literally divided three hundred and seventy million people hopefully in have I said it would have the same validity He has seen male leg of your boss no said male female Does it mean anything? I have probably be overlap of I'm more similar to people on the right is equal so maybe in some of the people on the far left, like it does until you a fucking thing about me Monica disagree. Monica Wulf I disagree and that I think people have strong convictions in what they believe should say. That they want to or Ino for me really. I was like. Why do you care so much to me that speaks more to you than it does to the people who are writing? Liberal or conservative like for organs? Are you? Why did concerns me because that's not an identity and identity is not all fifty percent.
the American. I share this identity. There's nothing! You don't even don't even describe your identity, that's not an identity might not be yours, but it might be for exactly what they identify with is. We know what they think are the tenants of whatever Party there in lock step, and that tells the world a lot about them. they think and if you put like car guy and someone was like that- isn't tell me anything like ok, but he wants to well, that actually tells you weigh more about me. I actually enjoy cars. I work on them. I drive them. I collect them. I read about them being a demo, that's not a thing. It's not actually away you vote. So, where you're telling people I vote once every four years, I cast a vote in a predictable. Where do you do? But ninety nine percent of people are that I guarantee that people who are writing it, probably out far more active in politics than you are and so forth,
Probably it means something more than a means to you. Ok, you did you feel you gave your steel man argument. I don't wanna we are now getting ready for you, I'm just listening to this I was hoping you'd go for another twenty minutes, for I have to say so. I have complicated actions to this debate and I think you're both right, which of course, does the only new. I swear it. Respond better. It's because I don't want to choose sides. It's because I think there are elements both are your arguments that I know of good evidence for so the marathon like a few things I heard, and you can tell me where you agree and disagree. The first thing I heard is that Dax to find yourself much more by your interests and your activities in what you do, Van what Europe We ve, sir values, are yes. If make a statement, I think people are the sum of their actions, not the sum of their into pensions or thoughts and ideas. I agree with that, but Monica you also are saying: wait a minute, if I say
of issues is really important to you and your willing to not only vote on them, but go door to door and been activists and raise money and volunteer that actually may become your actions and so telling me that your report, can a Democrat that sends an important signal about the things that matter enough to me to invest my time and my energy in them, yet he's a good steel man. Are you well Monica rolling arise. I don't think she knows what that x ray my guy. Well, I didn't know you yourselves huge grave. I my eyes, because you were saying I didn't do it. No, I wasn't. I was literally just observing that Adams really good at making your argument, were you already done a great job, making your aid, and I thought you did a great job, maybe my, but I only did it because I was able to translate what I heard from Monica Jackson, language that you already found compelling right sure do use into the choir. So I think if I were to lean one way on this, I would say I think said America.
It would be a better place if more people thought about this issue like tax, because I think that the most that we define ourselves by a political party. We stop thinking for ourselves sure I agree with that as a social scientists. The odds did you take fifty, you're. Sixteen issues and I happened to agree with a bunch of people on all of them- are very low and so I want to have my own stance of my own values. I also more I want to be open to rethinking them anytime, yeah, and so when I feel like well, if I'm a republican Republicans think this now, I have to say this too right. I want to find out what the best ways to solve problems. One thing I thought was really intriguing. Listening to the two of you is you both halves? our views about people having identities ends displaying their identities, and I wonder if that's part of the problem, probably Why is it so important for us to a flag and say I'm a car guy or I'm a Democrat in the first place
I agree with you. One of my resolutions in November was, I said, I'm gonna stop saying I'm a Democrat, a more accurate thing for me to say, as I vote Democrat regularly, that's pretty much what I do. That action I take as a boat democrat, but, not allowing them to be part of Dax I think of me, I'm not gonna. Think Democrat, just like I buy you craft brand, macaroon cheese when I'm at the store. You know, I'm not a crime and not a craft are now I kind of my groundwork for them. But yes, I digress knows that. That's very much where I would love to see people go is to say I look. I understand that that's not effective for politicians to build movements. They want people to identify. Is that how you mobilise a tribe, but I'm not a politician. My job is to think. Like a scientist and so I feel like the place I want to end on. This is first of all, let us look at the data empirically one place where yes, clearly aligned cross met, analyses studies have studies is the further you
on either political extreme, the dumber you tend to be. I'm so glad to hear that yeah, really smart people tend not to be dogmatic and then the debate about whether one extreme is more dogmatic than the other, which is a mess to me, I like a bolt isolating both parties should be embarrassed by the shoulders of their tribe. I just want to have a tribe, that's just this is why I would never go into politics, and no one in politics should pay too much attention to my views on that issue. But if I were going to build a Nickel party, I would build a competence in character party. I want to elevate the candidates who are the most capable of doing leadership, jobs and who stand first set of core values, independent of policies that I agree are important for a cunt. And then we can debate and run experience to figure out what are the best policies too. Those values- and this is what drives me crazy- with the current sort of polarized critical discussion is people are at
that's two policies, as opposed to being attached to principles behind them. Oh my god, I couldn't Bree with more? Thank you for saying that when I look at the homeless, nests crisis here in California acutely here in LOS Angeles. I oh wow, so you got the left in the right in the option is build a million homes for these folks or Fuckin Burnham, and, unlike we agree both sides that we don't want people's homeless. We ve been on the streets so to your point, where The studies. Where is the science? Why is there are a group of five thousand, we give houses two and five thousand. We do this to me, like there is no room for that, because neither of those fit neatly into this left right debate in its maddening nuts Exactly how I would formulate policy and the Good NEWS is, I dont see from a going that way anytime soon other? If you look at what not units do they times, pull this offer in specific areas: sped workplaces
this all the time. What are what are now units ammonia, my ignorance? What is that so richer Taylor and cast Cencian popularized? This idea of nudging right, which is to make good choices easier for people at scale, and so the classic example, is organ donation, where, if you change the deal, do you have to opt out. it's not donate their organs. Then you get a lot more organ donors, that's a nudge, ah, ok, gray, Eliza it became popular first the british government, then it was adopted by some teams in the Obama, administration and other various governments around the world that have not units that actually run these kinds of experiments and try to do our part. Based on them, but governments We get so ideological that its often hard to get people on board for what you're describing. But this is one of the things I love about. Being an organizational psychologist. Is workplaces where we spend so much of our time and are really it's a lot of our energy and waking hours. I find them very open to expand again saying just as you had a big test a product before you launch it or an app No, we figure out what are the most effective ways to hire people or to build a culture, and I think that today
is for all of us because it means we get to learn what is effective, I just quoted you the other day we were interviewing someone, and I pointed out that you in working with business or try to figure out some metric by which you could predict how good of an employee they would be in you'd. Looked at all these different buckets of qualities, at some point and who got the idea it was looked at. How the person apply to the job and their application had they used outlook had they use Microsoft. Explore had the or whatever the original the names of these things are. These Firefox tell us about that. I found that to be mine, blowing have you been wasting your time watching my TED talks was happening. Probably was my wife is so hot for you that I also hear a lot about you now through her so come via her honour that may work p
any of your interest. This is it Michael Husband study where he looked at whether you applied for a job when this is over? Fifty thousand people with My browser of internet explorer Safari verses, Chrome or Firefox, and he found that the crow, Firefox users were significantly better at their jobs and also significantly less likely to quit, and at first you say well Maybe there are little more tech savvy, but there is actually no prince in computer knowledge or a typing speed, and what hit me when I At that result was this is resourcefulness. What's going on is free for a long time, Microsoft had internet, explorer or safari if you're apple preinstalled is the default on your phone or on your computer and the kinds of people who had the intuition or the instinct to say you know what I wonder.
I should rethink that. I wonder if there is a better option out. They're makin then created their browser with Chrome or Firefox total bragging criteria- and I got an age limit nicely breakfast- the photos that that's a small signal of tendency to be pro active and yet a question the things that other people except to challenge the status quo and yeah. I think a lot of people look at that may say: ok way, so, if I want to get better my job, I just need to download a new browser, is about being the kind of person who thinks about whether there is another way to do things well, I was sad when I heard that cause. I've only use the preinstalled one eyed Zeus Avare and I'm angry when I have to go you some miles to make an app work here. You want everyone to this work around so far, and what are you you you to? Do?
oh my god- and you are great at yours- is already very true. I've been a poor boy. You thanks a lot is that it also gonna makes me think that thing about people who read child parenting books in general have good results, but not because any one of the philosophies are accurate, but it Mars is a demonstration that you have already started by saying I'm going to commit. Sometimes it is tat it might be. selection effect- has yeah, ok, so there some fun things from think again and one of them are minor. We are interviewing this great guy who's studies, the occult and stuff down in Texas, and he said if you're doing critical thinking correctly, it should her, and I what a great useful tool to check your. Against when you're here in a new idea and- just like candy the whole time your hearing it, I think, that's a great,
moment to go. Oh, am I just hearing something I already believe and now, and you wrote the discomfort of doubt. You say that you need to examine the discomfort of doubt and I want you to tell us about that. Yeah, it's funny. being an ambivalent reaction to this idea that it should heart and I'm trying to say why- and I think I have a hunch with some argosy- let's see if this makes sense. So I love a disagreeable. You are on my favorite parts of your personality. I am not disagree. Nigh aren't you haven't. I am not disagreeable, but I love intellectual disagreements. Yet it is the basic premise: me of I think again- is it day that too many of US stuck in and overconfidence cycle, where we are proud of what we know and Instead of doubting our convictions, we basically falling confirmation by us where we see what we expect to see, but also the, then have confirmation biased, which is called desirability by us, and that seeing what we want to see- which I think is worse
oh come and tell us a lot about that. Could you give us an example? So desirability bias is actually think it's part of what people mean when they say confirmation by us, but there too different thinks ok, right so confirmation, as happens anytime, you have an expectation and then you, we pay attention to the information that would validated I desire. Billy. this is much more pernicious because you could say: ok, I really want to believe that I candidate did not lose the election and now I must go and find whatever information can help me tell that story that is a great distinction. Domestic and all Ignore I love bill cause, be some ignore all this stuff. Exactly explain it away and amateur, become defender or apologist yeah and once had happens you are very good at confirming, does pre existing conventions. You become prouder of what you know. You tend to gravitate towards people who share those convictions and then your basically self ceiling lip yeah.
that's so dangerous and so prevalent. I feel like It is- and I think the way out at least about that I'm familiar with, is, I said: ok, what's the alternative to that cycle of overconfidence is get into a rethinking cycle where you start. I am being intellectually humble. You know it. You don't know that gives you that out to question your convictions and- it's your curious about what you don't know and the mark. It's, you are as you both model every time we doing episode of the show the moral because you are to discover things that surprise you and that surprise doesn't mean I know of an expert. It means While I wonder what else is out there that I haven't figured out yet here and that reinforces your humility and used keep going through. That out, curiosity discovery, humility cycle, and that gives you opened a rethinking, the things that you think you know and see we ve talked about, once before, but this is exactly why Lovelady Malcolm level boxes in general is approaches to take something that makes sense on a gut level or this. That common sense and then
find out you're wrong. I really enjoy that feeling. I do sometimes wonder if like does everyone and enjoy that feeling or not, I find that so exhilarating and I think that so he speaks to wires ambivalent, about this idea that critical thinking should hurt now guy has when Someone is as brilliant at crafting a story as Malcolm is then it doesn't hurt. It's actually a exciting discovery for sure. Isn't always gonna be like but I think we should have both. I think we should have moments of being wrong, that our painful because they really challenge are deeply held beliefs and that can be painful to let go of those, but there are lots of things that are sort of weekly held assumptions. Where is cut off to turn them upside down? I had a ton of them rain. This back, I discovered that there are- tat, the t Rex, but there are certain tyrannosaurs that apparently had colorful feathers. All right tat is so cool now in by the way, when I found that out, I
upset, because what it did is threatened or my childhood. It threatened all the moments. I was again those National geographic books at grandma. Yours is house, it ruin that for so that was I felt like it was on the table. So not sorry, but it's funny because I start. The territories thing was awesome, but I had this vivid memories of reading that PLUTO was probably not a planet and being really no aid. In that way, all solar system is falling apart, and what does this mean? Are we gonna find out the earth is not a planet that words are actually evolving around something other than the sun. Where does this end right? And I thank them Often we can get into the motive enjoy. Being wrong because it means now you ve learned something the more we learn tat again. That thing they trigger the same thing, I think in people which is childhood now is english. Like I grew up with this base: knowledge, there's nine planets and now
was wrong in that scares me yet or like was everything wrong. Did I just waste eighteen years of schooling, and now we know all that stuff is wrong. That feels like away stuff. a wider can, anyway, I mean it's not, but that's what's at risk, can I no longer believe textbook or a teacher or an expert know. It means knowledge, evolves and we're always learning stuff. That's called science threat. Yeah now their tasty ones. Can I tell you once really quick analogy from this year that happen in our This is technically confirmation by because that kind of thing it is that's meadow confirmation by us, sure you, yes, there's no way out of this. I guess this is like those moments in courtrooms when the judge will say jury strike that from the record. No, kid just wipe from our memory that draws more attention to AOL. I hate that now remembered even more appropriate banana so
I see as an ears resolution last year was, I said, I'm gonna stop telling people Aman Insomniac and I'm up telling people I have a hard time sleeping and I'm asking to see what happens because I started getting suspicious. While, if I'm telling all these people this thing, I have to confirm it. I can't open minded, but to be a liar not that I'm every thinking that we are aware of it long ball. I stop telling people that for a salad dear and I fucking sleep so much better, it's in saying that my wife labs about it nightly I falsely before or now- and I feel like that- was the power of that interesting. So it sounds to me like their couple excellently for that in psychology, one is basically a cognitive dissonance which is now that you ve stopped calling herself and Insomniac Europe Sort of freedom, the pressure to do everything. confirm that identity and
am I mean I go you not. I guess I could go to bed earlier or I don't have to check my phone when I'm about to fall asleep, it's weird noticing, our cognitive dissonance in this sense, because you're not really wanting to be an insomniac. It's just something: you'd accepted right age. It makes me feel safe, I guess on some level that I'm this thing that I've been for years- and I tell people I don't know so I think that an explanation for what happened. There is their tribute to this one. Is that self perception theory, the is the original labour for the basic idea is that yeah at times we learn who we are by observing what we do and say, and so if you hear yourself over and over again saying I'm an insomniac and pretty soon you, Sir, to internalize that is part of our identity and then you feel all the things I eighty every time you go to bed and that just perpetuates the problem right, whereas if you stop saying that what you ve done. Is you ve freed yourself from all the emotions that are associated with the identity and,
I guess, is there a little bit less stress about falling asleep or staying asleep or totally, and then its perpetual saw I'm less and less and less with more proof that I sleep well, I mean less afraid to lay down at night Giovanni Monica Self, fulfilling prophecy. I guess that's what you could call it. I mean it is a self fulfilling prophecy. It's a great description of it. I always thought of it is the anti daily information it was almost like. Instead of telling myself I'm something all the time and hoping I become that I'd, stop telling Something Obama's obedient one negative thing yeah, but it's me did you say you didn't want to be an insomniac, because I will push back on that a little bit, I think, maybe subconsciously you don't want to. insomniac. But it was something all about you sure that you probably did like that. You had some thing like that or struggle or a little bit of not have victimhood, but like some to overcome evaporate
organ stories, which everyone agrees and I need conflict, and I need struggle to make my story interesting. I e to make me interesting sure I bet I thought well. This is a part of my thing. Yeah, that's interesting. I feel like this past year in particular for me, one of the defining themes of twenty twenty is a feeling of helplessness and a lack of control, and I wonder there's something about in the realm of struggles and problems that you could claim is your own. There's something about insomnia that feels a little bit more controllable. Then endemic or then chemic racism or some other macro worries that you have, and so do you batch onto that in part. As a way of saying are it I've got a problem This is one that I might be able to do something about take a bizarre version of exerting control, even though its negative, it makes me out of control. In some sense, it is still yeah. This thing it's yours, oh boy,
Ok, what I wanted to ask globally of you, I do think everyone listening would be identifying and relating to different hiccups. They haven't thinking or overestimation of their own knowledge or any but the things we just cannot talk to. I think they're pretty highly reliable. So what steps. What are the actions one can take? You ve set a couple of them, but I want to know what your solution is to this or your approach. I know you said listing things you don't know about a great start cause it starts a path of humility. Which I think is great, but how do it moves through all this, because that is what the boy It is telling us ultimately yeah. I think so let's start with how we do this ourselves and then there's a whole other conversation about opening other people's minds which we can have? If you want your I'll talk to you until Friday is a clear, my child. Let's do it
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store or Google play. That's friends without the are best fiends So I think we really shifted by thinking about rethinking who has a paper that my colleague Philatelic wrote two decades ago. Where he said, look so much of social sites, so much of our study of decision making and judgment, is assuming that people are kind of rational economists who are making efficient utility exercising maximizing decisions, What we know is true. Is that, where much more social creatures than that and that the We think in the way we talk is heavily influenced by. Our stance relative to the people who matter to us so films, here's these alternative metaphors for thinking about who we are. If we're not homo echoes
MIKE S. Looking for a rational utility and peace, basically we often end up thinking in talking like preachers, prosecutors and politicians, and I immediately hooked, because this right at the heart of what I do is an organizational psychologists is to say: wow you have never had any of those jobs Monica you ve, never been a preacher dax. You ve never been a prosecutor. Neither of you has worked in politics, yet somehow you ve internalize this professions and they kind of takeover your consciousness in ways that you can't even see, and so when, preacher mode. We are basically a convinced we ve already found the truth. and we're trying to proselytize other people about our sacred beliefs when we're in? a secure mode. It's more the other person being wrong and saying I've got a win my case and decimate your argument and is very much a both sides, kind of thing which we criticise earlier and politician mode. My first thought was:
preaching in prosecuting stops you from questioning yourself and thinking again about assumptions that you should let go of. Because if you're right and everyone else is wrong, your work is done if you're in politician mode your little more flexible because Europe, and a campaign for the approval of an audience who you care about, and so but you might adjusts what you think in order to please that tribe so you are showing some mental flexibility but you're doing it at their own times for the wrong reasons, you're doing to fit in or you're doing it too. You know to win votes or supports or you know your lobbying as opposed to actually thinking and so my hope, Is that we could all recognised the traps that we fall into and say ha. I saw What like a preacher right now, oh I just got it can a debate. Why am I a prosecuting Monica? Why am I
securing Monica having a political identity. What's that all about before you know, as a politician, why am I so determined to have this group of people like me and have my back to the point that I'm saying things? I don't even believe deep down and recognizing those mindsets and recognising that they can actually bias our thinking to me, a powerful step. I just want to personalize every second, so Monica. What do you think your default is of those three? I know my mine Y know what you think minus, I don't think we'll sell automobiling, I'm almost more interested in what you think. I think yours is the more. I think you think mine is preacher and Mine is prosecuting. I sincerely didn't just one for you
because I'm not in your head as much as I like to think. I am right, I don't really know minors. Ninety nine point: nine percent prosecutor. I can't tell you how many hours of my life, I am literally in the courtroom, I'm from going through the exhibits, I'm going to present them wrap it up in my closing statements? I do it all day long and then, when I get into that court room of the person it never fucking, that's the way the court cases was to go described it at all and it doesn't work. What are you Adam? What do you think? I am your d fall. I think your politics I think he's preacher you're both wrong that the best outcome. I would not want that. The clear about what my worst instincts are. A secure, although way, ok, so the three of us,
prosecutor mightily why we get along so well yeah. I think we'd clash. If that, although you think my word on closures every time we meet interesting. So what's the antidote to those things, are you an embarrassing story, which is? I had an experience a few years ago as a former student M Jamie and she called me for some Vice she was thinking about going to business school. She started on an undergrad business, a grave. about an mba? Should I go and then, if so, which of these two schools that I got into should I go to and at the beginning, conversation. It was abundantly clear that she had already made up her mind. She's. Definitely getting an mba and a moment. I hear that I think I she's preaching I'm not during the coup that she selling at all, even though I teach you to business school, you ve studied almost four years. business. You really need to more.
There is literally nothing. You need an mba to do it's not like I need an mba to go, fly an airplane or her to be surgeon right arts had practised law, and so I knew She was very strong world from our past interactions. I really want to make sure that heard thinking was clear is opposed. confirmations viability buys driven. So whenever I hear somebody passionately believe in something that I don't think has been well thought out, I passionately Thank you for the opposite, even though I don't know We believe it that's my prosecutor in hiring its ugly head. I told her? Here's white NBA a complete waste of time. If you had to there's a quarter million dollars and you could invested in anything. Is this really the thing you would do and You didn't understand business after three or four years of studying it. Do you really two years are going to do that much. I just I didn't argument after argument and, finally, one point. She interrupted me and she said you're a logic bully and-
That was my reaction to has like cool, because when I away from that was first. I said way: logic, what she said a logic bully. She said you overwhelm me with data and rational arguments and I don't agree with them, but I can't fight back, but she doesn't agree with them emotionally by the way it sounds like you're married to her the summit, eighty percent of TAT, and has given me this feedback more than one conversation that I just did I get locked into a challenging of you and then I just want let it go, and I think that she's doing having a feisty debate shadow? She greater be done with this conversation three and hours ago, the this problem. To both of you. We had this problem, I have it de I have it terribly. I think I've made strides over the years, but I think yes, I am convinced in a moment if I can get someone to see the logic behind what I'm saying I'll have a change of heart, and I
ignore the reality that we are actually every non, an emotional solution that nearly has nothing to do with logic? I forget that all the time I do too and I have to say I see a little embarrassing to admit that I was sort of proud of being that's what I do this society, I want to have the best arguing that the most rigorous data and if you recognized that you can pick those apart than I have done my job. I rest my case. Sure outer yeah. Also, can I say I mean just to let you off the hook a little bit. She knew who she was calling like talk about conference he should bias and desirability bias like sheep. We need a there in subconsciously or consciously called you for that reason, or she gonna our friend who had it been like you do it. That's all some I don't know Monica. I think you're, giving me too much credit here,
I actually think people call the person they think they're gonna get the answer they want to hear from. I think my friendship history, I'm the guy you come tell you have a drug problem because I think each is no I'm not going to be like you know, you're a piece of shit yeah cause you're, excepting a non judgmental. I'm gonna have to go back and ask her now to find it what I don't know, but my and she is that her over, arching impression of me is ok, Adam likes being helpful and he's gonna do Every Kansas support this and help me think through which quota go to not me Miata to visit business school right and she private. So thought about how United tend to be really agree: for not having an intellectual exchange, and so how does this somebody's gonna really reinforce? Invalidate my preconceived notions, so the more What about it, and especially, as I finish writing think again, I came to rethink that fully someone into changing their mine, and even if I do It is not effective. Most of the time. The v, ray situations where I go into prosecutor mode are when
people are showing resistance. That's when this is not about me twisting their arm or winning the game tug of war is about. you say: okay, this is a dance and I've gotta think really differently about how to open their mind as opposed to ramming all my arguments in evidence down their throats. There are two layers of this there's a layer of how do you get yourself out of to get him out and then there's the How do you reason with the other person what I'm thinking of a line? I read from your book, but I don't have it down exactly, but it said something to the effective prepared, you're very best argument and argue to win, but am forgetting the second part of that. What's the, but I think it's butts, be ready to argue the learned he had psych. Owen swing and make your case and then also be open to it. I guess being wrong, now you can do both things I guess is, but I felt like you're giving us permission. Look: it's not surrender default now. First,
We have to talk about what kind of disagreement we're having right so that, let's assume that the other person has actually opted into a debate, which is something I always forget to check up front. So now I much more likely to say. Can we debate this, which, as you know, some evidence suggests that people take it less personally and are much more likely to say. Oh, this is an intellectual discussion, an emotional us very smart dead, so smart. I want to know exactly how you phrase it. So I can him ploy that, because I think That's what I'm gonna get into tons of troubles that we ve these different layers of connection. We have a professional connection, we're best friends. She, My wife's wife she's, my daughter she's, my daughter's soulmate, and you know so some of that is logically impossible that things cannot return at once. I, like the metaphor, Iowa even figured out that monitors gonna marry Chris ex boyfriend, which is gonna, make Monica Christians, Deb daughter, which doesn't make sense, has anyone how at work, but it's so of article seven. It would make it seven at any rate.
I think so often were having what one of us thinks he's a debate and then it is like sliding in and out of all this personal friendship and because we're not just debate partners were also best friends, and so I have an obligation to alleviate our fears when I can do that, and she that same obligation to me. So in a debate you're, not really doing there and it gets very murky. Quite often, yeah money, because I often starting with their can we debate this just a hey. Can we debate this is then I can find out of here The person thinks that's fun to, and then you Edward spar and it'll be a little bit feisty, but we'll both in met where we changed our mind and where we dug our heels in and we like each other just as much, if not more afterward. I think, though, that after that, you point out. Is that its very to get locked into this in our one of us is breaching the others prosecuting or
two sides and it's about having an argument as opposed to actually trying to discover the truth that might be different from both of us believe, and so an alternative metaphor. The psychologist, he is a lot that when a momentous, Jane Dutton first introduced me to is actually saying, can we dance what I thought was so powerful about this x. I didn't get it at first, because I have no rhythm humanly incapable of rhythm, but, as I thought about it more when I watch other people dance, I thought. Okay, yes, because is what happens in a dance. Is you actually start by I'm getting sick. start by saying: let's identify our common ground and then you. Don't throw nineteen dance moves that your partner? What you do You pick your one or two best moves and you leave them there and then you let them lead on their one or two vessels that tracks really Leslie with their science on how to negotiate effectively witches
negotiators are actually likely to give fewer reasons for the proper. Since they make, because there are- deleting their argument, and they know that if I could, give you seven reasons why, You should change your mind about this thing that I care deeply about. You're gonna pick reason six Do you think it's dumb and then you're going to dismiss my whole case because of it? This also works in pitching movies like when I advised writers who are about to go in to pitch a tv show or a movie. It's like you know, here are three best sentences about this. You know in the deeper you get into the weeds of all the different twists and turns inevitably you're gonna run in two areas where the buyer doesn't really like that part of it, and now they love the first three things: they love the umbrella concept in so yeah that seems to happen in pitches as well as such a fund place to think of So I've. Actually let me hear it had its work, so I want to hear what those three sentences look like for. You make right now for us three right
a new threes company instead of there being gales and a guy, the guy acting gay in, case- it's two guys in a gal in the gales, in straight now, get so easy, a man understand awry unjust, whatever, because you know the first thing: threes company, we all love it. I brought up something we all loved and I have given you a very easy pivot to why this is different and one is novel and unique about it and then I go gal, the lesbian, whose acting straight works a car manufacturing plant, so are already we're up fuck that, because this person bought a car pitch. They don't like In fact, during set workplace things, they dont where they're gonna get that set. You know all I've done is open.
That that you loved this thing and now I'm adding details that can potentially be reason. You're gonna rejected in their not relevant details. The most relevant details is this: is a new take on three company? Yes, I like that, a lot it's a little bit like the classic Disney exam. Of the pit. this movie that nobody gets and then they the frame. It is hamlet with lions, and then the lion King becomes a huge head, and what I think is hilarious about the story is the original pitch was Bambi in Africa. With lions here that I have no For that reason it out- and I am terrified verbatim- you can't take it easy that move care, but that divisive of saying, ok, I'm gonna, give you just one or two little points that you already on board with and add my twist yes, so much or convincing yeah, because you end up debating minutiae, and then they were in another out that's a fine line. Are you can
if a shower. What I'll have him? left on your door. By Monday, I made a large, my god. He bought it in the Rome. Oh, my god, I'm gonna do is take the pilot of three company. I can change their names, I mean I don't have a video, but I'd like it. Ok, tell me about harnessing the surprising advantages of impostors inner because as you might guess so, many of the people I interview, seemed all share a bit of impostor syndrome, maybe rightly so, because it is an unfortunate reward You know something many people do. It does seem to elicit that response. I have it often it to a paradox that the most successful people you know seem to be the its impostors and I started wondering a couple years go if maybe not a coincidence that may You feel like an impostor, it's not a bypass. of achieving some stratospheric level of success that a mere mortal would say. I couldn't be me, how could this happen, but then actually
I like an impostor could fuel your success. Of having a doctor a student, the symmetry, because now at MIT Professor- and she did this is investment professionals and medical students. Where she said luck. Impostor syndrome. That's the wrong frame. Why does it have to be a syndrome? It becomes a huge, pathetic. It's only relevant to a corner of the population. What instead, we just said you know everybody as impostor thoughts, sometimes right some moments where you wonder, am I gonna buy this interview is Monica. think that I'm in a complete idiot and lost a lot of knowledge, since we last interacted is Dax now be thoroughly uninterested in my data and stories and those kind of thoughts crop up for everyone right. That's part of the inhuman as it were permitted which she surveyed people in these different professions and how often they have those thoughts, and then she tractor governments and lo and behold there was
oh disadvantage at having more frequent, impostor thoughts. Ah interesting You didn't do worse in diagnosing pace symptoms if you're a medical student and you actually did better as an investment profess and I'm going back to medicine. You are also more compassionate. If you felt like more of an impact there with your patience and so what I started thinking was feeling like an impostor The time has a few potential advantages. One is where Carter you not complacent too, Do you work smarter? You realize how much you learn from other people and three? Is don't stand on a pedestal and Are you do lots of questioning and rethinking of assumptions and strategies and visions that their people might be taken for granted, and so I think this is. big opportunity for re framing and it's probably easier for men to do than women? Is problem we easier for white people to do than people of color, because if you ve grown then lived in a world where people assume that your competent and knowledge
then, when you have those impostor thoughts is easier to dismiss them and say I've overcome these before I can do it again. What I've started do is when I have those moments of feeling, like maybe belong here. Maybe I don't deserve this. Maybe people are going to figure out that I'm just random person who likes to do studies and collect knowledge, and I don't I have all the answers. I think ok that feeling exactly what motivates me to be humble curious and hard working and the data I never have imposture thoughts again. Is day that I think I am in danger of over confidence. I going through my different work identities and the ones that I feel more deserving of the ones I feel less deserving of, and then I think about how cool for this. I am in correlation to those in immediately strikes me. Monaco will confirm this as I am. I feel like I'm in, right place when I'm directing my guy
in the person of these hundred people, that should be doing this arrogantly cell and I'm as Monica, we'll say I can be my worst self in that situation. And I am also Often, as a writer, I think I might know better than other people, I don't feel fraudulent ever about when I've been hired a right, many times felt like they hired the wrong guy for a movie. I have many times been sitting here talking to someone in thought: Jesus Christ by the person who was to be talking to bill gates. So if I try my humility in my cooperation. I do think it's firstly related tat? How confident I feel or related to how much of an impostor I feel that so interesting so you feel, like you, become more open, other people's ideas and more collaborative when you're in I have an impostor mode. Yeah I was really really really, regrettably me
Monica I didn't recognize. I was I thought, as we mean to the clients, I was dragged into commercial thing for Kristen. and I was really annoyed that they're gonna be on zoom. I didn't know that, and I was pissed cause I wouldn't have signed up for that, but I ignoring the fact that monitors the intermediary between those people and she has a relationship with them and I'm being so fucking short with them and I'm making a very obvious. I didn't want this this horrendous an iota Monica million apologies, and that one of happen. Monica were seen partners on blesses mess that couldn't happen during bless Us Mass, what it was air because it was almost like developed so comfortable, that it allowed you to beam, through our something. Yes, I can tell you. I can tell you that completely arrogant self centered vomited thoughts I had, which is, if you guys
be doing this you'd, be here and not on zoom. So you asked me to come. Do this, and now you want to pretend you can do the job that we all are acknowledging you can't, or you would have we learnt. That was the thought process. I have like how dearly there come direct it or dont directive, but you can't directed by proxy or dont hire me like. I was indignant and arrogant And annoyed because I thought we all agreed- does something, but now you want to be both things. I was again it's ugly, I'm telling you the ugly place I was in my brain, but I was so frustrated like what you want to, but commercial drug marshals, I'm shocked to hear you say that that is not the dac shepherd that I know above lotta you ve you ve witnessed some of that. I mean you ve, been there victim of sir. I have to tell you Adam. We we already burst Christians bubble
taxes also a person, the two of them are Hugh meadows. I know I'm sorry, and so am I and we all make mistakes and have triggers and pitfalls in all of these things by taxes, good, because he can share that story. Yeah where the humility always comes back. Rams Bass like weight to lay like way after. Ok, let's try to change that so this is a great opportunity to deck. To go back to your question about ok, how do we get better at rethinking some of those approaches and making sure we stay humble and curious and open? I think one That, I think, would be a phone experiment is so I mentioned before my favorite alternative to being stuck in preacher prosecutor politician mode, I think you're a prosecutor mode a little bit there they bags. It would also may be fuelled by preaching right you, you know you had a trash somebody else's approach. I think
alternative is to think, like a scientist where you say My goal is to find the truth here and my belief not the right way to direct this commercial, it's just a theory and under there Syria, bunch of hypotheses and I need to run a little experiment to find out if my hypotheses are true or false, and so what data, but I need to gather what do I need to observe in to find out if my way of doing this commercial is a good or bad way, and I think that the evidence on this this is really cool if, if you just teach entrepreneurs, this is a study of italian entrepreneurs if you randomly assign them just to learn that there prodigy is a fury their due customer interviews to come up with hypotheses and then their product launches an experiment to test the hypotheses. They go from The control group averages about three hundred dollars a year in revenue. The group is taught to think of their business like a scientist they average. Well thousand dollars in revenue,
What a mass of effective just putting these scientists goggles, and I think No it's cool about. It is when you start to think, like a scientist, you're no longer locked into your way, because the x, Let me just preview my challenger assumptions and sure enough entrepreneurs who are trying to think like scientists there more than twice ass likely to pivot in. Saying? Well, my pet strategy didn't work out like oh well, the firm and showed that I was wrong and there's a better way to get this done even hearts and all about it now what about me exactly so Dax it of your version of this is to say you have some That's where you are super humble and curious. What are they is hosting the show. Ah, what if you approached everyone? You worked with by saying in our view, this person for armchair expert- and I think there credibly interesting and I believe I can learn something from everyone. I meet. What would happen, then oh by the way. That is how I approaches shows that I don't know anything about being a host of a show, but is the
some have ever done it. I've never call you saying in, like I'm saying in your dear oh yeah. If you took the teams that you worked within you, I imagined I'm interviewing them here. I'll, tell you, the directing thing is I'm gonna- devote myself a little, but it is a very complicated thing in that it is a dictator is design, because everyone has a movie, they want to make an that's great. Everyone should make a movie, but you cannot make several peoples movies. It will not work, it has to be a singular vision for the most part, this very embrace Luigi aid. Everyone agrees that this is the system. looking at me? A little white? No, because I think that an approach and I think that an approach a lotta people take, but there is also some directors or insanely collaborative and take on the. U know, grips ideas and yet but out even more detail to it. To put everyone to sleep, so there is a period, in my opinion to be collaborative.
Is a zone in a movie where you're, very, very collaborative- and that is prey You know you're working in rehearsal, what the actors are finding out what they want, what they dont like you're, making it ideally everyone can buy into and share and have ownership in, and there the time for that, and I love that time and that's when the production designers, as I think you should set it at night. a cooler and explosion, those offering all my god. Thank you. I didn't think of that and I embrace their, but once we, start shooting near. We have forty five days and we have twelve hours a day and we have x amount of money. The time for elaborating is dramatically reduce because it just functionally in practically speaking, it's not the time to rethink whether we should shoot this at night or in the daytime that ship sailed. It is a little harder to navigate than some other situations, because people do lose control of their movies all the time, it's a complicated thing, and so is a leader aspect to it that I dont think can be completely ignored. So the way I look away, said. Is you have a lot of experience in this industry?
and you have a well flesh out theory of how to lead effectively in your director role and how there is kind of a divergent thinking phase where you do a lot of idea generation and then there's a moral conversion. Thinking phase where you want to focus, an implementation and execution, and you have a lot of data right from your experience that tells you this works and the only question out ass, then, is how many alternatives have you run and actually not only question two questions, one is alternatives? Have you run and maybe even enough for them that you don't need to be grace about alternatives, or maybe the one that you have is working well enough, that you don't see a need to rethink it, which advocates. game. The thing I would wonder about here is: have you articulated your theory to the people? You are working with and explained. How luck? I am very. Open in this phase by then I like to be much more directive and task focused in this phase and without making collaboration, Smith I'll go, get em in defend myself a little bit, so in movies, I'm not
the version that Monica saw no commercial shoot. I dont want to shoot occur. I dont want to direct a commercial. I have no desire to do it. My wife needed a favour, so I'm somewhere, I dont, really wanna, be to begin with. there are so many layers too that day marriages in the mix. Again this complicated friendship with Can I yet sometimes she has to take this role where she's talking to the client? You know equals in here. But then we go down there and there's a structural status thing that fucks everything up and then am, I expectation, My expectation was you guys ass? We do a favour and I think one's gonna. Let me just do my fuckin thing and so my negotiations are so in cement at that point. I just can't be flexible and adjust when I find out all that's not the case. The clients going to be there and, of course, they're going to be there. They paid for it. I'm wrong, I'm on ten percent wrong, but in that moment you know, I accept that that makes sense.
Haven't you just sit on something that a lot of us miss right when we have those kinds of moments which is when somebody disappoints you, it's not because They necessarily did something wrong. It's because of your expectations: rats between what they did and what you wanted so then you either have to get clear about your expectations. or you have to then be comfortable, recognising that other people have different goals and expectation train. It sounds like that's real ended all things really really regrettable, but also, I don't really think that's how I am. I movies, where I want to be there: I care about is inviolable and I will because it sounds like you might be curious. I Wilson I've done experiments and what I said. we have found is throughout the three movies. I made one the cameras rolling the factories on his time to manufacture the cars the design phase is over. The less I get bogged down in those compromises the better it has worked out for me. So I actually have found I've gotten
less poor, perceive, I guess, as I've gone on. But again I do think there is huge window where everyone all ideas are great and all that, but in I have expressed that do I have communicated that, like now time zone. My gostar like I want here everything We don't have time when we get there. We just don't have that movie. We don't have those many days. So, let's do it all now. It's as I care us on a movie is not broken, and the problem as when you ran into a situation where you didn't get to apply our process, and then I was completely inflexible in an arrogant and sent a self evident why the alpha ye. The answer is to treat people when you. Starting to feel like you're gonna be rude to think of those people, because I even had this thought down there and these people can hear him being rude- and I was like
what these people listen to our show. They hate you now and like I was passed over you're ruining other parts to by doing the sleigh ride. So I think you should just consider the fact that maybe every single person lessons snow. I can tell you that that has been a trick of employed in real life, which is, I literally force myself to imagine the persons an arm chair then I feel like Finally, what you're saying when you brought that up, I was like I'd be heartbroken. If those people like the show and they saw that site and yeah really break my heart yeah. I hate. And I have when frosty it is sometimes with people. I go a match in their armchair exactly its merits, and I have to do that. That should be my default, but sometimes it's not, and that is a trick of employed. We have even your audience. Your does see some of the very best it's a view- and they have an expectation of you- yeah. So you want to meet those I think you're. I want
be the person they think. I am sure you are back, yeah, you don't wanna, be that person more often? Yes, yes, it's an honor maximize outside instead it is a noble aspiration. I think one of the things that I love about that. Is it really shit their goals. In the moment it sounds your goal was to get a task done and when you say what, if this person's an armchair arise, the most sacred thing there is the relationship, your building, yeah, exactly I can lose sight of that easily meet here here s. What I do the same things. Sometimes when I get frustrated someone used to happen it I've been trying to catch a flight, and get there at the last minute and they don't want to. Let me out this is as a rule that a bunch of people made us. I know that you have the flexibility to that rule. If you want to- and I start to prosecute where's. My I've worked with airlines. I know that you have the ram anyway and when I started I try to remind myself. Ok, this person could be a former student I guess
the relationship that I think are. First and foremost is. I want to be as respect. Full and is curious every day, as I am on my best day in the classroom. Dad such a a way to look at it. I also due to I bet you do like imagine that's my daughter, like I insist on the bus version and myself for my kids and I find the bandwidth to do that, and I I also think I find the bandwidth further show, which I care so much about the ant. I'd love to extend that out. I aspire to extend that out. This is it really good one for me to think about you. I love you you're saying, ok, yeah. I went to students first because I had them before I had kids. I think that that was the easy group to say that's a relationship that I've I've worked really carefully to put above water. My goals might be the air, but parenting is exactly the same way, and I think it goes both we have moments. Where are we talk to the people? We love the most in a way.
but we know they'll, forgive us or you know be understanding and sometimes is. Actually I find a helpful to think about a more decisive relationship. Me here say what, if this is a stranger hours meeting for the first time, design near. I will sometimes be looking at my wife getting ready for bed at night and I actually have to force myself to say that, a human being through spheres who has needs who requires love. I mean I I have to remind myself she's, not my role, counterpart in this endeavour of raising kids. You know, I don't know, I think it's easy for us, the people whose, when the most time with and that love the most often take for granted the most and then I also really noticed like the insomnia story. It's like it this story is my wife is X, Y and Z. Well, guess what by usually think about when she's thinking about me, which is I'm not helpful, Will you promise me is I'm not now, for you will certainly see the four times a day, I'm not helpful, and yours
certainly miss the maybe nine times that that day I was helpful. Yeah that strikes to call my version of this is constantly being late. There's always attack to be finished and, in time is a social construction who decided how the clock to have a chronic inability to disengage from a task until it's done. Means that the poor person who's next on my schedule is is the one who suffers yeah ads, What things Allison has taught me is to really recognize? Ok, it is not important to me to be on time. You can not make me care about being on time, if I may, flow writing or if I'm having just a generative creative discussion that a magical moment- and I don't want to mess with it and whoever is on my calendar- hopefully they like me enough or want some think frumpy enough. If you have a begrudgingly, accept it and what would
us in his heart me is: you know what I have to think about the fact that time is important to other people and because it's important to her that we're on time. I need a care about that, too If I don't, then I am basically her. I don't care about the things she cares about, which is obviously not true. Yeah his balls I'd, another issue. Of course, why do you do this issue of Monica yet a funny expression, tell me your tardiness issue. Its spectrum crosses the words on the second word here, the last words and other Rio like kind, a visceral issue with people being late. I take it personally. I'm just like you think you are time is more valuable than my time and it is not, and then I get defensive over my time me now might one. How something I had planned later, which is important to me, is now getting cut into an do. You only care about making your marcher whatever, and so it becomes.
to bigger issue right about value so quickly, which it doesn't. To be that's my own issue, twelve. I know a few sociological terms- and I want to use one now, first of all, hard you and I never want to make you feel that way- and I do not think my time is more valuable than yours, so I hope you ve noticed I've adjusted. I have ok great and also that is attribution error. So when I'm late. Psychology infuriate instead, you not because I feel like almost every guest. Who is an expert that you have that you tell me you. Love is a psychologist. So utterly already my I mean really. You haven't anthropology bent, but I think you might of psychology even more. I would have liked more, but attribution air yeah which I learned, I'm so guilty of in Christian. Rarely is, and I've had so much thought on this, but in general someone cut,
growth in traffic. If I say that persons and entitled asshole, I've made a character assumption about them, and I've explained Their behaviour by this characters assessment I've made, whereas Kristen will think it. Is situation. Also that person has someone in the hospital the racing to see and when you make it situation, others nothing personal to feel there's no sadness, there's no, nothing accompanying it situational. And what are you EL deeper and my own psyche deeper than that is the reason I say that persons and entitled assholes, because I cut people are not situational that I'm rushing to save some one. I do because entitled and I dont want away and so You will see the world, however shitting you are you'll pay the ultimate price because you'll have to assume everyone else's issue the issue, and it makes world a miserable place to be so. I have to
are personally by stopping being an entitled piece of shit, and then I won't assume everyone else is in. That is the freedom that Kristen has not making attribution error cuz. She can't even relate to that motivation. I have some that's right. Now, I'm not sure where to start that is fascinating. So, first of all what you're describing as attribution air that stems from projection by us another term for fast consensus, which is you know it. Whatever, I think is true and however I operate. I assume that other people- s like that as well, but I think your version of this tax is different from most people, because I think People go around thinking that they are good and decent human beings, and so somebody who acts away that is not ok with me. That person is not like right and set as a kind of the egocentric judgment that gets made of. you know. Well, I'm high and mighty up here and that entitled asshole is not. One of my rare breed I think that you're much more humble than the average person in that way, you're willing to admit that you have flaws and foibles and faults as an
expel attic, if someone's in my bathroom for a half hour, and I hear the cabin door opened and closed. Crossed my mind, I wonder if they're trying to steal my pills now we'll never cross Christians, mine cause she's, never stole someone's petals yeah. I guess this also goes to something else that I thought was interesting, which is there's another kind of attribution you gave us. play there, Canada, internal verses, external or the disposition oversee the situation right is it caused by this person being a jerk or is it cause? the circumstances that this person is in. I think Most of the problems that we run into with guessing about other people's behaviour are not getting along with other people. Actually comes failing to do another kind of attribution and doing too much of the internal or the external doing too much of personal versus the situational, so this is relatively recent development in attribution research by by Marian Oberlander colleagues the basic I
Is that most of the time when we get into a disagreement our conflict with someone else, we either Oh say? Well, it's not you, it's me and that sort of what you're doing right or more often right now. Actually, it's really you most the time, both of those things are wrong. It's not me it's not you it's us because the idea of disappointing expectations rate is out of that person was bad. It's not that I had a completely ridiculous view its that my expectations, clash with your behavior and so I think one thing we can all do probably more often is. In marriages, in collaboration in any action, we have to say If I'm not on the same page with somebody else, maybe I should rethink how explain that and stop blaming the individuals involved and see it is a property of the relationship. Instead, Yes, we ve gotta, we gotta, rethink how we communicate well. I also think the time issue we did that a bit, because I wasn't
you're always lay you don't know my time it was. I know that that comes from my insecurity of feeling not valuable. It is a convergence of both things, but I don't agree with you. that it's because, like secretly I you my time more than anywhere. I don't know, I don't know, I don't think you do at all. I was implying that cannot now you see the bad things in others that you have and yeah, I introduced approbation air, and then I went on a tangent with my own kind of personal, realisation about the reason I do it, but I was not extending that to you right. It is something that is definitely half. If not seventy five percent, If not a hundred percent. My own issue, that clashing with the orb behaviour. Somatic can you teach me something. Yes, I am
intrigued by what you said about how you look at people who are late, not respecting your time. So the way I've always looked at that is to say, I don't wanna, be a slave to schedules. And I organised my time around my commitments, not my calendar reason do. That is because my commitments are the people in projects that matter to me, so you will always know if I'm running late, it's because I am with someone or doing something. That's really important to me and that means you cannot count on me to shop on time unless it is important. I won't show up late for a class, for example, or for a speech because I know that there is an audience dependent on my arrival at that moment. But if we have a meeting here, probably five or ten minutes Minimum you're gonna spend ninety running late by then. You know if I have to deliver something for you on a deadline. If I have to show up for you in something matters that you can always count on me clear in my calendar, for you, and I think I'm being more respectful of you by doing that-
tell me how I should think about. This is a fact that people are not getting them ass. Well, I actually think the fact that there are things you would never be like, Four makes it worse that you are late, know some things become eyes, it signals. And again I dont think you mean this to be true, but what it can signal is those things take priority over me or down on the list, because you would never be late for Ex wines IE, but he's late for me. So I must not be that important no no, but but what you don't I'm thinking? Ok, I just had four emails come in. and you responded all. I can respond immediately to all those people in say: fuck, you, Dax, better Alice years, there have been those four people will be excited when they got a rapid response,
and then I'm only letting down one person who also is getting rapid responses in other situations and so net, I'm actually being responsive and helpful to more people. and you have too much on your play, the minorities that my future. So you know its greatest. I am often like reposition worm defending my behavior do Monica and I will say things like yeah the arches seems completely insignificant I know if I don't drink that much, I'm not going to do this interview very well like there's things I know about myself in it and some things I'll say are worth this moment I have to do it or I gotta sit for five minutes. Kid gets. All think about is that I ran so now when I'm frustrated with my wife for doing the exact same thing. My critique is everything, you're saying is correct, but what is on offer nobly true. Is you commit to too many things cell guess guilty as charge?
yeah. You know you can continue, do excuse all this or you can adjust the other side of this equation, which is you ve just committed to wait too much stuff and if you can t Can you do that this will be your life for the rest, your life, your constantly being late, you'll be apologizing people, so you know I can see both sides of it very clearly. I think Christian and I suffer from the same curse, which we have talked about a little that which is we love to be helpful. The up ya may also liked it his people and those two things together are dangerous yeah. And a fine being really critical. Maybe I'll speak for your wife, That's your addiction, like your self esteem, is being anchored in vat and you made a commitment to meet at anchor yourself esteem. To me, of course, you're gonna win the global argument of what's important saving the world or going to the movies with me on time. Clearly, you're always have the moral high ground, but you can have all that, but you might not also have a wife and kids or you might not have a husband and kids you can
have all things you everyone else inventory your honor is a right that I committed many thanks for exactly the reasons you describe every endeavour A situation where I run behind is something I can justify yeah, but when you have them all up, it feels like My priorities are out of order and out there so brilliant in so many ways, but one of the things that she's done that has really helped on the margin. I think I'm late often now so close. To the time time with our not just because I her, but also because when something is, put into her from a timeliness standpoint as opposed to just I think it is morally righteous Have you got in time, which I just can't get on board with? She will just ask me: are you gonna be for this. That's great what she's setting appropriate action in so that she doesn't ever resentment, not only that, but what do I say to that
I know because that moment letting her down in a huge way and the most I say yes, I have now made a commitment and guess what I am somewhat. Who stands by my commitments so now the clock, Commitments are aligned here. Yes, she had to figure out what lessons you, all the very good job, good job Adam. The fund is personal world- I hope you- it always gets back to you how regularly we sing your praises. Can I ask you both couple questions before we rapidly if the guy ass? What am I bigger fears in writing. This book was that I would and it has set of beliefs and opinions and that I wouldn't rethink them, and that would be completely at odds with the point of encouraging people to think again. So what is something that I should rethink? Do you ask is the hardest. Quite I know you love to do that. It has gone of Europe, your perverse king. This is your profile. It does it as an M portion of the thing where you want to be dominatrix. It's more me feel like when we have
conversations wishes twice now recognise its asymmetric and I don't want to be. podcast, whose role now I'm a guess, they're all these things, I'm curious about you, don't let me ask any questions, and so I have to turn the tables a little bit wall come on yours in two seconds. That sounds like. And we're gonna happen. I would love to do that. I said Montague would love to do that as well, that the question is what thing does he believe in that? Maybe he does deserves a rethink. Well, I think we already covered one yeah times. I must get when you still have some work to do there, you you can inside in further towards a modern way from her the devil NATO argon that anything else, the Jumpsome mind yeah. in its ironic, because it's what I kind of fell in love with you over from afar was position was SAM. While I understand what it was and I loved it. It also did say to me what the fuck do you got to lose?
Like you, I gladly ably meditation meditation. I know those drug conversation and there, of course, I'm a big proponent of psychedelic senor. Not that's fine everything's, fine, but and a little disappointed that prosecute that one successful? Now you and I'm not gonna? U dont! You don't deserve that, but I would say there is an element to it, which is it doesn't need to be defensible. in any way to do it, you know, I don't think it could hurt you do things that are completely without reason, are a logical or contrariety or fundamental beliefs just for the fucking experience of it, that is great feedback, The criticism is spot on. to have a reason for everything I do and if I can't exe You know what I'm doing with day or logic than I dont. Do it and because I've missed out on some of the richest experiences in life. I too am I don't get drug to as many places as I should allow myself to be drug to why this is
really good. You know it reminds me just as a quick tangent I've been reading. Research recently on how when people about what they want to life, a lot of people. Happiness and then there's kind of their toxic positivity crowd. This is actually meanings more important. and there's a new third leg about stool, which is called psychological richness, and it's the idea I'm saying you know it. I could have failures, but I'm actually just accumulating experiences, and I want take those out of life, that's exactly what you just made the case for, and that is what I tend to overlook is I feel, like I put meaningful, first and then I get enough mean My happiness is a by product and I don't have the ring, this most interesting experiences that I could because I'm too busy learning from other people's experiences. Those are my data, more you're waiting for like a critical mass to make your decision as opposed to its ok. I go on with a twenty percent interest or twenty percent conviction and see what happens. I did too
Monica eventually into new mushrooms, and she had all the reasons you did not do it and ultimately for her These very very grateful on this trip are one I'm trip through planet our she did it yeah. I would I commend it. Even though was really against it for all the same reasons I heard you speak of, that is Hey I've even considered, rethinking so yeah. I think it is a pretty far stretch. The am I know where I lived. That is, it is an interesting I was for me to really wise, because I am not doing like there's no reason for me to even more. but for me I have like part of my identity. Even the word. Try not to do that anymore. Is I can't be peer pressure, and I can't be made to do so. I don't want to do, and I feel really convicted in that. So then it became just like a. Why said, I wasn't going to and I'm not gonna and he now, then I was like where's the poor or also the very thing you're evaluating whether to do it or not to do it is the thing that it
offers you a vacation from here and there as for very analytical people, like all three of us, it allows you to be a person you couldn't otherwise be. I don't believe you can mantra your way into seeing and experiencing like what, who had now by Kennedy, what happens? There is a division in your brain as an adult. You have that children don't have and there's all this confusion between these two sectors of the brain- and really does? Is it stops? Those two sides from communicating and you're literally thinking like your child, does, and there is a great value to that. I believe that Right What do you think that's interesting about that is, as I think it through is my dear the vacation is going and doing something really challenging racket. So rhymed climb a mountain, ERS Ischia, black diamond, it's all stimulation and intensity, and growth as those two relaxation and maybe more idle curiosity and you're you're, pushing me to go there. I think I'm more
likely to try meditation daddy, rethinking anyway However, you also don't have time schedules pact or add walls poem as you a result from meditation, but I would bet my house in my family on a result with mushroom: well yeah, I love you now we really do have to before. The light fades here in our world has her delight, but I I just want to give you one compliment. I know you want some constructive criticism, but my complementing and give you as sensitive switch disease. We ve been talking. he went for more than seventy five minutes. It is almost impossible because, when the rhythms over, we sat and work twenty and anxious that while we ve done thus far out whereby poor Jackson, Monica by the way you don't have to run olive Sarah hit, you can edit out all the garbage this.
We'll do editing of the compliment. Shrimp, governance out everything nice, you said about, we say when you said I should have been a psychologist now began to know. That has just add also. I will also fight forever inverse charisma things. I believe passionately yeah, that one's wonderful. I love you Adam. I will be on your show anytime. You want suggest that ain't you, I love being with you both. It is such a huge honour to come back to arm chair and my mission is to become the gas that most excited to bring back here. While you got. What was that you need a new girl. Thank you both and beg you by the way. Thank you also for taking the time to think about think again and to share it with your audience. I am obviously excited about it, but it means much more. If you all excited about it some very very excited about it again eyes. As I said, it overlap perfectly with my number one concern about humanity. So I am grateful to you for having studied this in written about it. Well
you both give my warmest regards to Kristen ends. I can't wait to meet her in person and hang out with your guys when this shit show is ever. I call Are you her side? Peace, so has now that I'm trying to figure out what that means, and now my favorite part of the show the back check with my saw, my companion satisfies oh satisfies. We write to you by the Pfizer Peach Icy ever since we interviewed Adam Monica, randomly probably twice a week. Will this text each other? The word satisfies are of such a good, were it is its fuel wrong, but good goes wrong. Sorry, I love Adam saw my keys.
Spread is our best friend and what was really Q. Is that pain I ended up being on the same episode of a tv show on Sunday you how fire that today show what are you talking about top gear top key area Was he talk here in the past, These dogmas book the one we are talking about? yeah he's a meal or email submission can take over how I wish she was from Georgia like it had that feather and my cap dear, Maybe you can have ever retire there. It's a beautiful place to retire very odd. What do we say one or mild whether mild, winners very mild, not as mild as us, Andrews Congolese, well, that's we're. Lost angels really shines the winter months. Oh yeah people right now, our posting like snow pictures and its I mean it's cool cold for allay right now. It's like sixty three June. We will everyone around. Seventy.
Civilian, mediterranean climate we have done. Inclement, whether minus though it gathers earthquake Then you won't bother me. I'm in your twenties, London were command, do you have ever not known to Macedonia class Chan, I dont have a favorite Joe hotel it. Why did the air fall off the toilet? I don't know why Pissed off. That is really good banks. I didn't make it up. I have a couple favour, Jugs Kay, Reform is potentially offensive. Ass best. I lost my favorite one, my favorite in my life, my grandma yours, I lost it Alzheimer's and this insane that was my father to cancer, so I'm gonna say I've. I've earned the right tell us to buy. Ok
so an older man goes to his yearly at all. This saw anytime. You boredom I've ever heard about my favorite, ok. So a lot of its interests in the delivery. Ok, that's why, like ok, so an older gentlemen goes for his yearly physical and After runs a barrage of tests and then he comes back into the room and he says to the older man now, while I get- two pieces of bad news: Negroes come on. Let's hear me said number one: you have cancer number two. You have Alzheimer's and he said well LISA, knocking answer, really isn't the one. I thought you again all the underwear, why that's another one, so another an old man and his wife. So is an old man, and these jokes that I like an older man and his
I'll go in for his yearly physical, most jobs, thereby yearly for an older man who's a bit hard of hearing goes in for his yearly physical unease with his wife and the doctor says: ok, Mr Kelly, we're gonna need a blood sample. A urine sample of Anna Fecal Sample and he goes what did he say in his wife goes here? age, our underwear that your favorite jokes our stories My joke was just a quick in and out. You think us only about our personalities. It does because, like you, don't like Queen voices a tiger It's not like that, this is terrible to say, but I don't anyone else could deliver the Joe, the same
I've always good arrested in, like I was immense, got like there's a performance element to it. That makes it good like, as people can say, the least that cancer and a lot of different ways and it's gonna change- that joke quite a bit you got a really make em optimistic, well, lease its cancer Try to tell my aunt joke. Ok, why did the fall off the toilet he's pissed off? No. He couldn't give a shit still somehow you could connect the dots, Noah Shiver. Well. I'm confused, though I thought you wanted to address those who have some happened, one second, why did the fall of the toilet why he lost the farm?
becoming a suicide you they live in a world where I live in an ant farm. Ok, I'm not asking you to read rewrite hope. Ok, here's what we're delivery! Bulgaria take nine hey Monica Dignan he kept might have you heard this here, one and fell off. The toilet know why he was pissed off thing I, like my beloved theirs is better, but I'm just illustrate this allowance. Dusky jerk, which are one more ok. Ok, can I get you know? the law way acquiescing in Ireland? what do you want? An fell off the time now, pissed off.
Ok, right or your right off he's gone over. What was you're you get me. The no is its uncomfortable. When you say hey Monica the idea that the goal to make after moving because jokes like that, feel like its people on the golf course. I don't want to make the joke uncomfortable for people, they don't know they can laugh. You wanna take dwell here. Ok, I'm mad. You hear about that and they fell off the toilet. See now you don't happen. What will happen when he's pissed off? I added to it is not a three step exactly as it in an hour you're much better telling this job. So that's what that's one. I would not tell ok, ok, ok, you knew the other one approach, although most of my life, ok, there's a bear in a bunny rabbit sitting in the woods and the bear says the Bunny rabbit a little bunny rabbit? Do you have any problem with shit sticking your fur,
here in the money. Rabbit says no, to bear. Why do you ask me so no reason, and then he picks up the bunny websites, but with them. Good, then you can just say poop. Instead, as shit like I, I mean it shook as women adult audience right Frazier Joint Ideological, no, because I only have listening but listen, listen, listen, listen! Listen! I actually not a fan of jokes of this nature, just like formulated Joe examine either matter. I name if someone sorry and present a joke, I get very because I have to laugh- and I probably do not think it's funny- and so that's the immediate concern is like well, I hope I think this is money as the person telling it obviously is anticipated. No I'm gonna, because this percent loves it. Although I think First time, I told you to underwear joke you really liked it can aviators acting way.
Two is anyone who tells one joke out of the blue displaying until eight yourself, if you laugh so hard, they're gonna, think you want more arrogance, urge them it's a positive feedback. Loop of that's misguided does dont know. Why do people love Harry, I think, were an anomaly? Yes, I think this is a I told you you see be. I was growing. We know a lot of really funny peoples or spoiled. So when somebody hit you with a knock, knock joke you're like it's to elementary too. For me, that's too pedestrian together our people, I've remains not blow. I don't think so. I think that the american public and international public is: ah, my level, you do. are there not below
me they can. They have the same standards of they can have the sticks. I think they appreciate good humour over bad humor. I think there is a huge latitude amount as well or a huge spectrum in them. some people, don't get jokes for sure wow, that's yeah! That's what there's a whole category of jokes call way. Homers you get him on the way home. I've never heard while dirt do you remember when I showed you my favorite movie ever not so delighted you actually loved it too, which is raising Arizona Yeahs. The guy with the kids uses, ran bunches kids in writing, fired on the wall inside each eye, Mcdonough trailer trucks, a handful of knots adamant that guy tells a really terrible joke, and he says yes, it's away homer in h angles. What You know you get it on the way home he yeah, so it came from raising Arizona, I think Praetor. Serbia was immortalized in recent years on the movie alchemy doesn't like that.
You should have never told me. I'm sorry, I strike from the record k, Sorry Anthony, that is on itself. when he does- and I know that is so unacceptable. Just just like some people like knocked out jokes, some people, don't grazing Arizona, reasoners, unless the only thing I'd ever put. My foot now talk about that, now you right he's already on many things, to put your foot down about unseen and on the artists. Dicks seem like that. You don't I got father, ok, that's for me to imagine, but I'm ok, first, one in he's a writer and these are my own comments he is this was completely unacceptable. This be like someone? That's in the race cars not liking, Michael Schumacher, eaten in our area. Basketball fan. Not respecting Michael Jordan. It can't be done well it well did while sorrow for adding
three north inviting receiving I'm listening. Maybe he's a wash it with me now I don't think that's a good idea and you're gonna be citing can it be in the position of the joke? Where he's gonna hafta laugh? No, I think, perhaps, for Whoever reason whatever Moody was in, he missed the town. Some the towns pass an anchor into the tome interviews. Watching with me, I'm kind of like a guide on the soundtrack Emma LIVE audience I'll be laughing and then he'll go like. Oh, I guess all that was a joke display for a joke and then he might give the rhythm and the tone I think he gets here is not for him he couldn't have got at all like what I would say how be impossible to get the tone and rhythm about moving, and I, like you, I thought you specialise in seeing other people's points of view. I did accept This is the single thing I'm going to say. I don't. I cannot understand summons point of view. I'm trying to a man put myself in his shoes and watch the movie and why this is not good. Ok, that's like looking at
ocean in saying that a tiny puddle o guy now ok Adam, let's get off Anthony's back for a second and let's go to Adam. So what does the Oracle of Delphi is Adele FEAR, Delphi, said both ways: how can sure, if you're in Greece, he would say it away that we don't say I think I learned Adelphi In the USA we say, Delphi and everywhere else in the world we say healthy. We mailed great job. What does the Oracle of Dell Feed tell Socrates about being the smartest man in the world? You couldn't quite remember the line. After his service in the war Socrates devoted himself to his favorite pastime, the pursuit of truth, his reputation as a full a super literally meaning a lover of wisdom soon Oliver Athens and beyond when told that the Oracle of Delphi had revealed to one of his friends at Socrates was one of the wisest men in Athens. He responded not by boasting, are celebrating, but by trying to prove the Oracle wrong,
so Socrates decided he would try and find out if anyone knew what was truly worthwhile in life. Anyone who knew that would surely be wiser than him he set about quite killing everyone he could, but no one could give him a satisfactory answer. Instead, they all pretended to know something they clearly did not finally, he realized the Oracle might be right. After all, he was the wisest man in Athens because he alone was prepared to admit his own ignorance, rather than pretend to know something he did not two lovely and the ethical Adelphi is. egg, like its fate in outside, got right. It's a man. You had served fable a pair of opiates party to replace the party that that reminds me of the club that Kelly and we're gonna start called couture, say Toby better. We had a dream of starting
club together. Here, of course, any less runs. Do it was. Can be called could tore sake, as fourteen is my favorite number and her favor number, but her fair rambler, because it's her birthday and your more pure the eggs she was gonna, given her favorite yeah, like sitting in favour of us, so Qatar say and behind the bar was gonna, be kind of a water all rock wall and carved out was gonna beef carthorse Oh why, while using your booty bump and aids thirty per now, we were stability. Pumping at that I like that. You know the booty pumping up as I use I have booty bumping, would right either, but blood people came to your defence by the booty pumping was was dancing Q, yeah and a lot of anymore, so mad that I don't love corny and our red inauguration. It was deep, it was deep, it was more than like. I disagree with you. It was
moral failing on my part that I didn't enjoy watching, alas, now I know you did see that that will prevent her light. The crux of the debate about the booty pumping my first experience, booty pumping, was in high school if we're on the Howard Stern show. You know what they do. Is they about? They have the whole catalog of everything. That's ever been said, and they often like will cherry pick something like that and I'll call. The call like a restaurant and I'll have Robin gloves, I won T make fuck with you, Either we just got a little snippet of you going my first time, booty pumping was in middle school is is valuable. It's called its goal was in middle school and literally the parties at that time were in basements the one I can remember very them it was my friend Ashley S birthday. I think it was eighth grade and her mom rented the club, a house in our neighbourhood forget the tennis court
literally everywhere the party, and there was like eighty people there, while just gettin. Ah sir, you're, just in a big circle: Eddie you're, just booty pumping, ok, but don't you partner. The booty pounding began. Someone is behind you in all my chain, train again pumping chain, train, booty palm train only it was so on we want you to think I was called like we're the parallel line or some where the parents work concern, everyone's thy gyrating. Yet there it why it was wrong to use fire while and where you did you get charged by that original early. For that you remember who is booty pumping you know I mean I remember who I wish I sure, but they were all bummer. Did you try to get yourself like position. It's like musical booty palm chairs, probably the birthday girl. I hope
her selection of the EU is fully behind the allowance that she had boyfriends, and so they would pomp so romantic timeless Borgo, Adelphi being They may me ok, so why do accents go away? When you saying there is no definitive answer on this I'll tell you, but I found two different explanation evolve yes, and I'm in a red them. One is technical as Billy brag, a guy who's never had difficulty, letting his accent shine through whose that nobody, ok great here, planes. You ve heard- and I hate when I have to say that, but no one is allowed, he's, probably super popular, and I just wanna Paul. You know why you're like Socrates, you know what you don't know voting or you better. Take that in Ireland. That will never say that again that we got two great snippets rob put those in the bank he's an english singer, songwriter and left wing activists over different actions are often defined by the red.
Comes intonations and vowel quality and length for many actions the tune the rhythm of assign can constrain these qualities to the point where the accent seemingly disappears? This is true. Even for sir, qualities of the general american Action and regional american accents related to it. General American is a rock accent erotic or roderick this, just as Roderick or maybe wrote it Our age o t icy roderick, which means speakers pronounced. The letters. Are ends of words like car and lover unless these coasts here, but if most Americans, saying those words the same way. They said them they'd sound like pirates. Instead many songs force american singers to push the are more towards pow, ah sound in the same way many Brits might pronounce it suits them If there was ever gonna be universal language, it could be spoken from everyone on the planet and intergalactic early we'd have to sing to each other. I mean I m:
that's what he was onto Spielberg and now close encounters need, be haven't seen a b b that's how they communicated than any realise those notes on a thing, and then they could spell allow major Anthony AIDS it. oh, and here's something else. Linguist an author David Crystal from Northern Ireland, He says: songs melody cancels out the intonations of speech, followed by the beat of the music cancelling out the rhythm of speech. Once this takes place, singers are forced to stress syllables, as they are accented in the music which forces singers to along their vowels singers, who speak with an accent but sing it without aren't trying to throw their voice to be deceptive or to appeal to a different market. They are simply singing in a way that naturally comes easiest, which happens to be a more neutral way of speaking, which also just so happens, be the core of what many people consider
I quote. American accent which we are to me is that presumably there are many english singers who sing and quote in american accent. That probably can't do in american accent. Is that interesting and think they have? But anyone like not everyone can not. Every Brit can do American accent, that's in fact it's rare or maybe they can't sing, also need, but there all the british singers demeaning sound like their singing in American Axa, like even a doubt, I bet Adele kind of very American, probably she's a female, but you know what I'm saying I do know what you're saying, but I also most of the people. Well, I've met from England or Australia. They are my you better are doing an american accent them like I'm doing a barracks and much better because of all the American calmed exactly you're a front australian friend of mine.
a greater dear australian noisy pale. He he speaks in a great american access. yeah I'm a glitter virgin, and I asked him why and he said he. I grew up watching Sesame Street, and are you imagine that so it's just it is already ingrained we're not growing up introduced to those other accents. Eight, unless you are a regular customer of Lucifer's plates or fraud, may rooms, location tee for he'll Hearst didn't jobs it actually The australian he's, I think, he's we found out that he's kiwi around yeah right all it's all topsy. Turvy am scary members, Thank you for calling Lucifer's beta. Oh it's gettin, getting kind of her. You haven't done then so long in our impact? I just did it because I did see a couple. People say that, MR I must say you actually mess Lucifer's pizza. We helped occasionally,
they used to have a gluten free crossed, but they still haven't, they have a gluten freak cross. That's great! but now they ever even a second gluten free option which is cauliflower cauliflower and it is The word yes really gonna be hard for me to pick is, I believe, one right now. I am hungry dear me to tell him I'll call them I gave a Goin Lucifer's biter for our Meroz Location Press one for here elsewhere allocation. Breast tat tear, I give recalling all here hills, operation Do these on the web, but hey talking to you, as everyone else does to please use an app that's hard to use. No one wants to make your pizza. Thank you It is worth recalling anyone these days. I hate it, they shame you then,
and they make you listen to so much of their automated crap. Just didn't tell you to go to the website and you on your computer, it down. You found it's, not nineteen Nandi Pizza new person, lives in the present day funny how work would have when you call it said this, how dear you're, Goin Lucifer's bites. Firstly, I am never to see, but I want the regular. We were played the real thing on you yeah. Maybe not I stood listening I remember it changed in Europe. Sir, this picture, what school did you? one of our obligations, regarding direct a number of Lucifer's Peter dot com where you said by what is that
change, or that has to be used to make you pick what location drove me now just dedicate a phone number to the one. I want all the time I will about solitude, ok, I love Nobody.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-02.