« Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Andrew Marantz

2020-04-09 | 🔗
Andrew Marantz is a journalist, staff writer for The New Yorker magazine and author of Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians and the Hijacking of the American Conversation. Andrew sits down with the Armchair Expert (pre social distancing) to discuss working as a journalist and specifically his time researching internet trolls and the direct ways in which they impact society. He talks about his experience getting to know many white nationalists and the revelation they aren’t always people you would expect. Dax wonders if there is an effective way to attack hateful ideologies without forgoing free speech and Andrew encourages social media companies to implement more foresight.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome! Welcome armchair expert experts on expert. I'm Shepherd I'm joined by Maximus MILES below our do a maximus feeling Maximus today, oh good. I, like you and your maximum it's Saturday, even though days or nothing. It's still the weekend, solar still gonna celebrate winner of a really interesting gentlemen. Today, by the name of Andrew Moraine to use an american author and journalists, he wrote the two thousand nineteen book ties social online extremists, Techno Utopians and the hijacking of the american conversation he went under cover to find out who's. Writing all these crazy, It is on the internet, yeah is really interesting. He gets to know people there. We kind of I think in society deem is like trolls were right, arm office, Troll, yet generally yeah, then there's varying levels of that were there now involved
and semi terrorists plots. Aha, it gets dark hurry for does so. Please enjoy Andrew Moraines he's no. I know her from Yorker Festival they do these live interviews. Ones year as part of just like in events. So I did. I interviewed her for that onstage year, Rebecca those one. It's a funny, weird formed, as is very, very different from the form you would do for a magazine interview. Right when I'm doing print interviews. I am not at all all worried about how it sounds in the moment of course, right right, but I'm literally the only person who will ever hear it yeah, so I'm very used to doing interviews in a way. That's really like repetitive, asking to see
question six different times, circling back to Bang Han and then the live in our view, format is completely different, especially I'm also used to doing like adversarial interviews, which obviously I alive in her. You don't do adversary very uncomfortable for people out there beyond mere neurons are firing me. He added, I enjoy it. Laughs uncomfortably high, but like when you're, when I'm doing fur magazines. I'm like you know I could be there days hours weeks, yeah see you get your little digs in their over time. Yes as a whole different form yeah. Yes, so I'm wondering like how often do you go in with an approach her if you ever try to approach where it's like, I'm not going to go out that thing and then ended up getting it totally yeah and it's all person to person. Right. It's all just it's like any other relationship, except in other relationships, your hopefully not being as weird
duplicitous as you are in a similarly yeah. You know what is Joan Didion said: writers are always selling someone out and that's a cynical take, but it's so true, it's laying right, you know, look, there's obviously good sides to what journalists do and honour thing truths that the world needs to here, and there are pieces that are just profiles are celebrating some mouse backed right. That's how you would like totally all the time and lay there are times where, like, for instance, I did a profit, Wesley Jones right after she gone ass, an owl and her paw this was really nervous was like please like she's such a nice. Personally, please don't do a hit on her and I was like imagine the universe where I go in and like why slam at this woman having like the time never alive. This well earned thing and I'm just like. I'm gonna take her down like a Europe. That is not what I'm here to do, but but but depending on your ambition level, at the stage of your career, if you're trying to break out and make a name for yourself that you can see where that's on the table for some people, how, when there are always ways there, I mean
peace. There were two. three times when I was like, I could, Why? Yes, it like falls into her lap and you're like it's, not what I want to do now worth it. That's why you know journalism is a very like. I trust in ever cause there are. There are built in checks and incentives and there's obviously I mean with the new Yorker particularly there is this extensive fat checking process and not only with investigative pieces. there might be lawsuits, but with every piece, but your essentially the peace has been reported beyond. But he always has a chance to way, and so there's that, but ultimately trying to do have to say to people like you can't. I just have to trust that I'm not gonna. Let I'm not I'm do yes, oh, I increasingly don't do print interviews it has to pass through your felt it has to pass through my filtered? That's just how we are right. You just gonna, go in your ear and come out your fingertips, and so that process scares me cause. So much of what I say is informed by
How light hearted, I'm saying that my delivery, all these different things that get lost in print, I have agreed to do for the party cause. I care a lot about broadcasts in. I hear a lot about Monica and I liked for us to build a do that together, but we New York Times. We did a piece on us and it was so lovely. While we were here and then, over the next three days, I convince myself Oh, my god, it was. This is gonna, be a hatchet thing like you, she was posing as someone who actually likes to show, but then we got into other issues that are sticky and am I you know she the home in on those things: that's all right there and I set it off. Her name is Eliza Breath Eliza, where a lovely she was incredibly Lumley
and I was like great and going after she loved. Does it get because planning grain he has taken there always are ways there always we're way. Can I say, though, that it is very useful kind, lovely nice, fair saying- and I was like- oh, I just completely spun out about it, because I am just so nervous me. Maybe I should just be like taking the journalists side in this, and ultimately she did right by you right. I don't blame people who are worried. I really don't write whenever somebody doesn't want to talk to me. Sometimes it's for down. reasons you know, I hang out in a lot of spaces where people like you fucking news and other stuff. I'm like that, a bad version. of that argument. Ye for Digital get where the sentiment comes from Muslim, always taken a risk. It's always a cost benefit. I mean When I remember when I was doing that peace. First of all, I had to spend a long time trying to talk my way into just being around to be a fly on the wall with anything involving essential, because one too,
Lauren got burned. I someone who came in and said I want to hang out. I want to see what you are doing in the cover ended up not have been your or the cover of New York magazine, ended up being Saturday night dead and it was. Our luck saw they led him into the riders roman. Whenever you're in writers, room people are gonna, be thrown out, jokes land and you can make em look bad so that, in nineteen o five, I think, and since then Lorn was just like not now, and this is happening, and so they actually so then. I had to essentially like work for money. to sneak around and again. This is not like me trying to like bust some scandal or something maybe ask him. It's just me trying to get the scenic material need to do a peace that I think is worthy of said. That I think, is good, yes and I think shows in real narrative time how this person operates, and why she's funny cause it's very hard to capture why someone is a creative
and if you don't see that at work yeah sure anyway, it took a long time for me to like work my way onto the set. I got there the week that Lucy K was hosting ok, enery free of revelation so like this is where the sky really doesn't want to talk to me at all. I wonder why, ah and now I think I know why mine she was in this sketch, where it was one day and there's a lot of just shooting the shit in between takes NEA, and I really to show how funny she is so they started just ripping shooting on a rooftop and was her Louie, Keenan Thomson Mikey Day, all these people to soar ripping and we're looking out in Brooklyn and they were like just doing down, it's about, like I hate that billboard and I fucking banks, because banks like this, just whatever they saw here and then they saw a bunch of orthodox
Jews, so sure and went, and I fuckin hey Jews, because Bob a hot- and in that moment I'm Joe S was no part of me. That was like, oh, my god, she hates juice like zero, zero percent right, but I was like, if wanted to destroy everyone's urine. Yes, yes, yes, it just would not, and so I just had to very quickly do the math and my brain of like. Is there any I can translate why this is funny in the moment. No, there isn't. I'm just pretend this never have a year monsieur Monica nice? If everything is to tell Christian when she was cancelled, so I think we all but virtually lived together, monkeys her living now and yet criminal say something we're like yeah. That's it. You cancel drivers that was being broadcast. Everyone you're out. That's it that's a rap on you ain't. Even she Kristen bow the perverse eying. They could get her cancer. We always earlier many times a day, wives also hard to write things when
you have the little cancellation angel in Devil on your shoulder yeah. I can't imagine its helped your access or year the openness of people. It doesn't help with access to other people. It also doesn't help me, as a writer, to be free enough to write things down, even as a first draft has allowed. The process of writing is too does try stuff arrows. She had at the wall, read at a week later and see if it works, and it's hard to be like. Oh, my god, I can't even type that he ass soon ass. He s so I've been fascinated recently. Does I guess I didn't realize this person existed, but both in reading catching kill and listening to the Epstein cod cast him blown away with the audacity of some of these folks who do have a humongous secret to hide actually reaching out and having the arrogance to think you can steer the whole thing in your direction in there's no way any journalist was fooled by him sniffing around you notices is such an obvious yeah. Oh, you know, I mean the Epstein thing in the wine. Seething stayed buried for
quite a long time that yeah yeah, so it's not like it doesnt work yeah. I just I was trying to imagine myself being proactive in a crisis like that and interest and would talk about a swing for the fences. It's it's nice. relax. I'm better word its impressive, that any of that level of Gaul of like arms gonna. It's crazy will end. The people that I was covering for the last few years have a similar kind of gall to them. They really. I mean I was covering a lot of people who they knew There was no way that I was gonna be favourably disposed to them. Yet I knew based on where I was coming from your from New York from New York. I mean I literally would be in reporting situations with various alright types or whatever they. They would call themselves Magda people their concepts deplorable that they had all kinds of different words for what they were so nationalists ever white nationalist. It range from like actual, nazi nazi types charge, you very very soft people who
never ever identify as racist and would be very offended if you said that rights and there would be a few moments, if not endless moments where they would sort of be like, what's your deal, man like what are you doing here, power, treat us lie about US rates, Questions have different answers. Maria and I was very clear with myself, How can a lie but I am also maybe not gonna say every single thing, I'm thinking, because no no situation, do you say everything you're thinking now, but I was like I ethical you like. I can't say something: that's not true. I couldn't say to them. I love everything you do, I'm a big fan, the actually. Let me just back of her head. A second just say that your book, anti social, online extremists, Techno, utopians and hijacking of the american conversation is the book that referencing that you, as I
stand that you. It is started maybe as an exploration of trolls and then you were observing them online and then you wanted to get in front of them in front of the real people that was creating all these things yeah. Well, so it would. It really started, as was in about. Where are the bad people or what add people doing online what it really started, as was what is the internet doing to us? Ah ha. What is the internet doing to us as a society? What's it doing to us psychologically emotionally? What's it doing to our belief, structures which you know started sort of getting at that stuff in, like two dozen fourteen two thousand fifteen, when it was obviously like a big important question, it wasn't like the question here and it felt like it'll get the side. I always felt a little bit kind alike. Gonna wasting my time looking at like weird parts of the internet, like it always felt, especially like sitting in the new year offices in the World Trade Center and having these like peace idolize. You know like some of the best writers in the world like walking past my office and being like? Why are you king at
why Macedonia's cooled outcome? You know my right. It's for a project on your search. History was probably a little low. I embarrassed I search history and my algorithms, I will know in Youtube. In the end, you too would be like. Do you want to buy, a diamond mine? Do you want to buy a secret gun holster? I didn't have the foresight to do like a separate, Workin personal account I would just be weird pick up artist stuff and then like Leubronn, lights and Stephen over for the algorithms like who are you who yeah you're describing my Netflix, because my kid sign into my name? Does I get recommended all these unicorn cartoons and I think while they are off based on me, I think it's gonna quoted is confused. The algorithms dismounted not share, but so it started out as these kind of more abstract questions in less than a political context. It didn't seem like a politics story at the time it seem like maybe attack story, a business story, a kind of culture, her story, and so I was exploring like ok. It feels like
Nothing is getting broken into. These de context, realized chopped up bits where never go to any homepage ever anymore. It's just your feed, throwing things in your face, NEA that an goes for everything that goes for brands, companies, people whatever it's all just sort of based on what the more than once to send you which, as we just discussed, is based on search history, but it also based on during the most extreme, immediate emotions NEA as possible quickly, and so those are good fuel for action? Yes, yes, and specifically, the actions of click, scroll SH, Air comment, those are literally the only things the offer them can measure. Yes, the algorithm can't reach into your brain and go. I found this thing really made. You think it really changed. You really made you a better person that it is just blind to all of all it noses, did you smashed button bright, did we capture your attention here this amount of time totally and get you to do things. On top of the time get you to comment. I voted it is our I love this. Does it, things that can capture so
in a way that wasn't intentional. When these you know Silicon Valley, disruptor people set out to do this. I think they really believed. Yes, they wanted to make money and all this stuff they wanted power, but I think they, really believed like we're. Gonna give people what they want sure, and then they just didn't fully think through its like how, when you are like building cities, hey. We got this grey thing called a car and can get you places faster. Why would we not do that and in fifty years ladylike? Oh, that's gonna literally baked the planet it's kind of equivalent. They just didn't think it all through. Yet well it's moving so fast in their defence. Pretend someone could be ahead of. It is a little ninety total totally. I think by me we'll get to this, but I think there are ways they could haven't should have adjusted over the course that time, instead of it, they can have dug in their heels low wages interviewed the head of Instagram Adam, and he was, I thought, very transparent in their many failings. He was in charge of the Facebook
speed before he went over to answer Graham and he was being vocal in sounding alarms in all these different things, and yet he just yet we didn't think of everything. Also, we learn things like real time as as the media's learning at pointed it out, but quite often we're learning it at the same time so my only sympathetic to what they're doing I am too, and it's not like the point of the work or the book is to be an expos they have like. These are the worst people in the world. Are you know you're not like Harvey wines, dean type figures, they're more like I would say, like the people who does cities and buildings and cars who thought they were building this beautiful le Caboosa a robber Moses. When these people were you have this beautiful thing being built. That also has these massive consequences, and then it's it's a question to me of how much can you think and self reflect and be of supple and flexible enough to go like the thing you built Europe your life on. Not only your foot can and fame, but also just your entire life. If you knew about Mark Zuckerberg life, young, literally
her light. Ninety percent built on this one thing, since He was nineteen years old. I'm sure when he closed his eyes and thinks of himself to think Facebook, his inner meshed into that how could I not be and the like- and I try to think of it from the perspective of like if you suddenly told me that, trying your hardest to write: beautiful senses, the capture, the perfect crystalline reality of the world we live in is actually like killing babies in Myanmar Charger side like downstream. Certainly I as an Ex hard to wrap your head around here. It would take me I'm yeah, but there is thing, the philosopher Richard Eddie whose, like a little bit of a sort of backdrop, to but so ready is like this massively important american pragmatists philosopher who can afford to pin down simply, but what am I of his books is called contingency, irony and solidarity. Contingency is essentially the end the story isn't written, yet everything is contingent. Everything could have happened, one way or another, with like essentially
Arguing against this idea of progress will sort of beef this thing that works itself out right, whether it Marxism Nino. There will be this natural class struggle or whether to enlighten me in the rationality of humans will naturally, leader he's against all that it's not gonna, there's no natural course of history and has to be decided tat. People have to do it. The area so like it may be the case that human ingenuity and rationality like bring us to have, but it's not just gonna, be on a given year. Yes, not this Hague aliens are, of course, of history thing in the region. That was important to bring up for this stuff. Is there when you are someone who, just at nineteen, drops out of college and starts a thing that ends up being the biggest information tool ever known in human history: you're, not a flop. Four you're, not a historian. Your building, something cool am, I think you imbibe. Without really realizing it. Just these cultural ideas of like free speech, good history is a march of progress we live in a time where you know
the more globally we get knitted together. The fewer wars will have, the more prosperity will have an obvious things. You don't articulate them, but they're, just like that: the water your swimming in the outlying, so that when build a thing where you like we're gonna, knock down all the barriers, we're gonna to tear down all the walls, we're gonna, disrupt workin, innovate. I think there's basically no part of your brain going hold on, am I going to start a world war questioning the destination, so you have these ideals in, like I'm, creating this tool that will help us get this thing that I think we all agree right is where we're going. So, let's get their fathers get faster exactly and so there's this thing where I call it the gleaming vehicle of. I guess it's just like look at this vehicle, it so fast it so sleek. It's so beautiful! Nobody asked where it's going doesn't like. Well, it's it's just like a self driving cars like it'll. Get us there right in your what, if there's a giant wall that it's about her and inspire our leading up. An element of that is because I will sometimes give spun up about a new Action were heading in society: governmental, you, whatever you want to call it globally,
and I'm get wound up about it lets say it's generally cause I'm getting older triggered by younger generations and what their prioritize and how they compute the world and I'm like I'm bristling at it and then a bigger part of my brain goes, this never stopping it's, never slowing down, it's never ceasing to evolve. There is, destination, it has a momentum that is I'm irrelevant in the equation. So even if I don't that we have agreed upon the destination. I do feel like the march forward is inevitable in almost not worth my trying to steer it. I guess where it says the March is in evidence is the forward part that I question our guy, so I think one thing that I had to work hard to us or to clarify that it doesn't mean that there are these two choices that are optimism, pessimism or so we will need us all together in this beautiful way or throw yeah, I think the way out is not
optimism nor pessimism, but this concept of contingency, ah it is gonna, be what we make it so, rather than less there all the phones off a bridge or rather than let's sit back and let the phones do whatever they do. Cause it'll, probably be good issues. We no, we have to make the future be. What right. So in what way I was going with the young continue. The irony, solidarity. The irony part, is what he by irony, any this very technical definition of irony, meaning like the ability to reflect on the possibility that your deepest held convictions might be wrong here and now, is something that is where I think a lot of the circumvented. People really struggle so used by saying what how'd you get to the trolls. All very airy, abstract stuff that was sort of swimming around in my brain. Because of how I like to work- not want to say, ok, make an argument about this stuff. Let me make up let read about why I think social media is good or bad or write. What I like to do is take
these ideas and confusions and sort of like things that I'm not sure how to feel about in go out into the world. Then try to make weave together, people and narrow in moments like, like a kind of documentary film, almost art, pray that's like in right, but it is a fact that you're interested in him before you you launched into this year. Your kind of aware, obviously you're, seeing that what's a year on Twitter were most was aren't twitter. I owe others a lotta angry people there is a people that are in camps there's a lot of fighting the place I come from is like this at least aspect of it seems to be the worst of our nature or that there is an empty to it. That allows us to act in ways. We actually don't act like what place starting from where you ve, starting from frustration with the way that Seychelles for media and the internet working yet frustration and kind of anxiety of like, whereas it how bad will again at year end some of it was served observe
twitter and and read it and all these things and anonymity. We should get back to you, because Facebook is not an automobile. Facebook is full of problems, though, is not any one of these factors. Anonymity is one factor, but there's lots of other factors to cause. I spent a lot of time the offices of red it which isn't but in many ways there more proactive about cleaning up their masters. Ok has read: it is a super fascinating part of this, but it's the one. I still don't understand she, conceptually literally people, tell me about like read it for I dont know what they're talking. I meant that kid who invented it, the young lady S, great guy Alex's, you love them at even asked him. I don't think I understood after you. Don't I don't just someone starts a topic and then people do they write indefinitely on the same topic. Is that what it is? This is another thing we're being in the room, helps you like. I just sat in the Red it offices in San Francisco for a long time. The basic architecture of it is a very simple. Its use just be links. Here's a link them added comments. Here's my comment on that link. Ok, any added up votes, and
votes. I liked your comment. I didn't like your come there thinking again, because of this kind of basic sort of technical Toby in frame was like this is democracy, its literally voting yeah yeah up or down They didn't anticipate pylons, didn't anticipate what they call brigade invaded anticipate. What are pylons. You decide I dont like Pomeranian sixty seven and I'm just gonna destroy her regardless of what she's, ok, I say her because it's usually her yeah yeah, who are the targets of you know, the disagreement immediately unravels into I hope you get raped or generally right. There is always some kind or just a right of physical, subordinate or woman, everybody s or everybody jump in here and download her as quickly as possible, and this is part of The answer to how I was able to do so work was just like they don't go after men. In the same way, I met some real unsavory people and they didn't like me, get those journalists didn't like me cause. I was jewish in some cases. But my woman,
I'm kind of ok right sucks, but it's real. My If we are to listen in. Sometimes I do these interviews in in the house and she could hear and should be like they weirdly kind. I want your respect, even though fucking hate for sure, a kind of getting the hear, your voice, it's bizarre and it's like at a deeper level than is either some primal stuff happening, yeah, yeah, yeah or short. So It is a kind of in a way the poorest. oppression of some of these things. It's it's very stripped down the design very, very old school, a message board you as I would have thought it was like a message board. Its also gets more traffic than Twitter or Amazon or really Netflix or in India. Does it have the impact downstream? That say twitter does, because in my observation, maybe you can correct me, you know more about it than I do. I have theory that the eve for this
and right. Five percent of the spectrum are have the loudest voices and they are common during a disproportionate percentage of the new cycle. By having these loud clickable, opinions and takes on everything yeah and some of it is left and right, but some of it is just attitude temper. Some of its not like. I want a third, nine percent tax rate and you forty one black, like fuck, you, want higher taxes are fuck you I want lower taxes, yeah, it's not really a left or right thing. It's more just alike who can get those emotions stirred up yes, and that was the thing where these guys, so I mostly spent time of Steve cause Alexis, had kind of moved away from the companies even Alexis started together in their dorm room in Charlottesville. They went to deviate here. Then they went off when their twenties, they made a few million dollars. They sold the company. They went off, they ought I retorted Erlich they saw but has read it stood, track upwards towards policy and new cycles and all that idiot it everything is on ready. First, there's more than a million raising staff right like there's, some like whore
fish stocks are happening, bow tie, ok, really bad only read, it is one of the reasons I spend so much time at read. It specifically is because it is in many ways one of them There's mirrors onto what social media is because it so stripped down and its everything is out, the worst stuff the best stuff creativity? The partnership? I mean you know I was focusing on the anti social side of it, but there is a huge amount of pro side of and not only on read it, but every people are finding their mob. Their vining, their tribes are going to events there, all that forming the life based on all the piazza. By the way, all the things said far forming mob going to have a mob was the wrong where no, but that it is exactly like the mirror. It is just both. At the same time, it is the proposal in the antisocial exactly the same right and one cannot exist without the other media. So the reason I wanted to delve into the bad stuff is not because my masochistic, because I like hanging out with the worst people, but because I dislike part had been under explored NEA
Essentially, the first ten years of social media was them being just given a free halo effects. everything was pro social. Everything was Tahrir Square and there's there's can be these revolutions and the other or briar spring. I was just like there's. No one really digging, not no one. There were people, but it just beat the collective narrative. Being seen in this balanced what yeah so the first, looked at in twenty four, was this guy in Chicago who was building a click bait website. That was not political at all. Ok, it was cats, writing skateboards and he feel good stuff feel gets wasting times. So I met him at a dinner where I was at a tech. France and I was there to do something else, but he was randomly seated next to me and he started time what he did and I was like it's not intrinsically harmful what you're doing, but you are wasting PETE time, you're, not making them smarter
did at my little name tag and said: oh, so you work for the new Yorker. Let me tell you how to improve the new Yorker anymore pictures. You need shorter sentences, you got. way more clicks. If you just do like listed calls me- and I was like four Nobody like you're, not you're, not wrong arrive, but the reason I'm annoyed cause you're right, but you just think you're you'd, like smug Charger law that that would be defendable go that will be good for the worldwide. Yes, it's good for your business, but you conflated, and this became an obsession with me. People who conflate what's good for them and what's for the word, what's good for the bottom line in what's in that particular internet problems, so I was so intrigue and provoked by this guy knows that I'm on your profile of you and whose like ok, Greg I hate your magazine sparked yeah love to be a sort of recovery profile, and I also is aware that, like I have my biases and I'm writing about a new media thing in an old media thing, I don't want to be just like caddy about it, so I tried to really understand what he was coming from and he was a smart guy and a nice guy, but then our vote
the system was so different, particularly on this point that he kept saying to me Our motto is: if it gets clicks, it's good. And I would say, deeming good the money in your pocket or goods ethically are clear, Eddie wise and he was like. I don't understand the difference right. Stating for more arm chair. If you dare, we are supported by policy genius. There are things we look back on and think. How did I get it so wrong? It might be wearing way too many polo shirts at once and popping all the colors. It might be. Cutting those bangs. You thought we're gonna, look Q but ended up exposing some colleagues in there.
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as you know, a ladder dollars. Honey supports over thirty thousand stores online in their adding more every day. That's why it has over a hundred thousand five star reviews on the Google Chrome store. Not using honey is literally passing up. Free money is free to use and installs in just a few seconds, plus its back by Paypal. So you know it's good: get honey for free at join honey, dot, com, Slash Dax, that's join honey, dotcom slashed dax- and you know I gotta say under the I'm gonna. Do this a bunch during this interview and I'm gonna get in trouble at times, but I'm gonna do it anyways, which is what did your beer? do following doctors dig up so, I will say I get a little fresh through people that'll pat themselves, in the back too much because if you're born into a household of doctors and get it you're starting at a pretty good spot, where they ve already dedicated their lives to helping people money we'll cars,
You can sell one with the den in it that no one saw that was an extra two hundred dollars and we could met you know so. My dad was fucking take what you can get and run like hell, and so I can relate very often Monaco, and I will give these conversations and I'm like I hate to say it. But I have that obsession and the covering of money and at all costs in what's fair. Could someone went to that school? That's for a fact that the whole systems that fair I'm gonna get mine. So I don't love I feel that way, but I Devlin honesty and how many people are given the world view of this is fuckin video game and get some points totally enzyme I don t blame people so much if that but there are born into. I can only agree while I agree in the sense that I dont think the most productive place to go with that is to go. This is a bad per, right right right. I want to condemn this individual as a bad apple. I think the thing that's important is: what are the systems that are driving people today?
the way they are its. Also that I just want to point out it's in it's something I find myself in, as it is a luxury to be finding purpose, I'm so people to have the luxury, but for many years purpose wasn't on my agenda. It was like get some fuckin money, so I can subs what the price of gas you know it. becomes like what's on fire guess we ask that as the masses pyramid that yeah and you know, then the question is: do you get addicted? To that? I mean this kid. When I met him is twenty seven year old millionaire at what point do you actually rise up to the level of the mass was pyramid where you're actually turnip transcend that? Yet ass? Yet again, it's not about more condemnation in the sense that I dont think this guy's a bad guy. I do think it's important, though, that to flesh out our actual profound disagreements of prey the poor, especially as we get more into the people who are actively like tearing apart the fabric of our democracy when they ended up writing about more in and again I'm polygon opponents, some things that sound like I'm a sympathiser, but that's not the case, it's more just for like a sense
Emotionally, maybe, what's going on what people, which I am sure you are equally interested it totally. This is part of what we are talking about angel in demon of cancellation on your shoulder. There were two when I was like I'm so interested in what drives these people and explaining it that I am worried that I'm gonna get mistaken for excusing it free of charge. Has I spent I mean in the book. I go deep into the life history of people that are doing bad things in the world just objectively making this world a worse place, and I really really want a tunnel into what was it with their relationship with their parents. It's also ye You have to understand it. If you want to be able to create systems that will correct our at her yeah, so I started with this click bait entrepreneur guy in Chicago, then tromp comes down the escalator. I immediately and look at all the incentive structures, all the business incentives that the intentional incentives, the psychological tricks, all the things that I saw, this sort of innocent neutral kid doing.
That's? What this guy's gonna do and he's gonna win, and I am sad to say, I made a lot of bad that I won right. I also was like ok this my thing that I've been sort of turn a puzzle through and not knowing exactly what the story is. This became the story of american politics. So then I was like ok now I need to broaden its scope is not just about how this kid is making money on Facebook. It's about how the same things that allow him to be twenty seven. Zero million on Facebook are the things that are going to destroy everything we hold dear. I want to know how you go from like observing them online. Do then meaning that also okay, so it was summer of twenty. Sixteen, I have been saying kind of internally like making bets with my editors and people like these four These are two strong like trumps gonna win. Eventually, just so my mother, like ok, tell that story in a way that is I'll? Just again, not just you putting out your opinion and sort of writing and bad about but like show me show me who is doing
and we were already hearing rumours that even back then pre election that, like maybe the Russians, are doing it and, let me be the bats, are doing it and I was like even if it's true that the rest, you're doing it. There is no way that there is more of the Russians doing it. I'm doing here, the Russians like there's no way that these whatever too, for people who are sitting in a building being paid to do this. Are having more of an effect on the election than America, we're doing this more drive around the dry. Allow yeah, there's just like yes boss, problem? And yes, you know troll farms are a problem, but most of this is real. so. You're gonna find the people who are doing that's right and I was trying to stay within gray territory at first. I didn't go straight for just the outright nazi stuff. I felt like I was a little too salacious. You want to be able to again not excuse but find some way into understanding its view. a very hard to find your way into understanding? Why just an outright anti semite, just out now cross burning person? I did end up getting there in the book
while I was reporting the book Charlottesville happened, Why should shit I have to? I have to go there right started out with I want to find someone who wants are to lose for reasons that are not just pure blind hatred but like has reasons and is really effective at reverse engineering and hacking the attention all marketplace to make that a reality by find someone who's just sitting at home in their living room, doing it freelance and way that would not have been possible without these algorithms, like you could do it as Super billionaire Rupert Murdoch type person by like just buying up the press apparatus, but the fact that you could just do it from your laptop is new in human history all. Let me ask you this, though, because we acknowledge the algorithms are virtually giving us exactly. What we want to read already were already silos. How would someone penetrate vat algorithm from of an opposing viewpoint? So here's how to do it well, so there is a lot
legal room within their giving us what we want, because there's different versions of us and what we bullets first shutters if twitchy, lizard brain version and there's the deeper more considered version. So you can, you know you can get people who don't want DE readers to eat Doritos by giving them the US. The idea is not actually that deepen complex. You just have to it's a it's a trick. You have to get good at yeah. You know you put. Lines out to twenty people, and you end up finding the one. Perfect person has a lot of what a new Yorkers a thing is is finding the one perfect person, who's, gonna, encapsulate a larger right set of Sir, that's like a fractal of exactly actually they caught the donkey like the person who can carry the weight of the story. You wanted to ok like Lawrence right. What, was right about Scientology his first piece, that was our global ruined my life. So if you remember that articles all these articles. This is like super dumb, like magazine, nerd thing that they all have a little thing above the title. That's called a rubric and it's called either profiles or a reporter at large
or whatever that one was technically a profile of Paul Haggis, ok No, we read that and went well. I know about all how right rear the life in times of all right. But you have hospital haggis, was the Queen Cor donkey and that story he was carrying the load of the right to have to go in through someone so I call Haggis was this guy I have the tape, maybe we shouldn't even like, give him more attention welcoming, so that the guy I used. I called him up and said I am interested in how people are using social media, do unprecedented things in politics, really quick. How do you leaving because everyone is operating under an alias or a fox catch, her twenty nine? How do you even find out who the guy really it was a thing, as some people are not other ok so he was living out loud yeah I'll get people who been at this for a long time. There is generally time when they have either been dogs or they ve added themselves or something is and where they go, this is gonna, be who I am now this particular guy. He was alive, he went to law school, he had a wife and
kid and a dog and they like to go hiking in he was on the right path, yet But- and this is no when I met him- olive oil or gas. So did us every time you meet one of these people and want to tell you about other people that it's gonna be the same thing every time. It is not the person you expect allow. It is never the fifteen year old in a hoodie in a basement, Sky was about forty. This was his second marriage. Both of his wives were non white. He was, you know, really into exercise and fitness. This was no summer two thousand and sixteen- and I just want to understand what the fuck is happening on the internet. So I was I going to show me how you do what you do and right away. I was the UK this guy's, not dumb he's now. living by himself and you know like he's a weirdo in many ways, but he's not. The penalties are isolated, sought eyes, not attack gusinsky, not decadent. He is obviously not a white nationalists in standing because he, u get kicked out of being away nationalist. If your wife is of iranian descent- and I actually later found it-
his first wife had worked at Facebook and in the divorce he got half of. Facebook stock, which is now in the minds of all my god. How some of this stuff is like, if it was a novel they'd, be like come on the community on the new on the nose of a me? Wait till we get to the guy who's like the top Nazi propagandist in the country. Who was to a jewish woman and who had a black brother and get there. I love that complicated, so Ex messages like it. we love. My son has again and again you? U s. before like didn't they get you in go like aren't you gonna, be
yeah you're from New York Overstep. Sometimes I would literally meet someone at a party like the deplorable one of the big parties, owing to his called the deplorable is their big inauguration party and less acute planned is no longer enough and re Monica deplore of all this is this is that I spent about three and a half years going in my head, but I am I there were times where I just had to go, because I wasn't gonna lie and because I wasn't gonna say the whole truth. just when you know a man just take a look at me like look at my glasses. Look at my beard, just me. Assumptions and they're probably close enough church where they were thin slice me yeah yeah like it's not that far Can you just tell me what you wanna tell me, then? Usually it would work and so are sometimes they would be like. Take my notebook and tear it up and like fucking we're like fifty fifty yeah. So when I get this guy's house in California he's Ok, I have a laptop. I have an Ipad and I live stream on my Ipad and like that,
I have a phone call, people text me stuff and that's how The reverse engineer the new cycle. Unlike damage his brand enough that she's gonna lose, I mean obviously in concert with other people, but, like I'm gonna, do my part to hijack the narrative. As I come on man like, how are you going Is only a watch, though I mean I was with him for these days and he does it multiple times a day he was like, one of the things that people really respond to viscerally an emotionally is someone being sick or disgusting or like especially a woman. If I can make people think that she's dead he used unlike rotting from the inside. They will want to vote for her now mine that he was like. I have all these things about her foundation and the stuff there doing in Saudi Arabia and caught her, and I have a like. He had all those things on his mind because, like that's, not gonna go viral, that's not gonna hit people at these emotional flashpoints that, owing to make them clicking comment and what's gonna, make them clicking freak out is she's diseased So he goes ok. There's these! There is little video clip.
of her, where she's blinking in a weird way, and I'm gonna, to say that that's her having a mini seizure, aha or she didn't, Have you sitting down, so I'm going to say she can't stand out or there's like a little bulge in her pocket of my say: that's her catheter and so part of it is just throwing shit out there, but part of it is also condensing it till it becomes embedded spikes into the national discourse. Just your point: you don't just want to in your silo, you wanna, pollute the entire national discourse with it. You gotta a minute you alive stream on periscope. Anyone get doesn't have to a million people, could be a thousand people or five hundred people if their passionate enough in hard core enough? and we all pick the same hashtag at the same time, and we get enough of the right kind of. is an words on the right kind of combination in and in its spikes quickly enough. That will become a trending hashtag unto her. So he would sit in this video conference conferencing. Okay today, it's gonna be Hilary bags because he's got back, she's got bags under her eyes, she's got bags, catheter back she's got back, so it's
Let's all go. Do Hilary bags right now twitter- they all do it. None of this is against the rules by the Rhine. Twitter doesn't have a rule that maybe they should right, but they don't have a rule against you and your buddies hijacking. The news right they'll get it Are they do the hashtag if they do it right? trends, then, when something is trending on Twitter, that is a signal to every journalist in the world, which is the poor audience of twitter, to go home, said so and took out. This is now a thing you have now been objectively given permission to go after this ass, a thing yeah, one out in the public consciousness. Our reserves reporting on exactly which is misleading and a lot of ways right, because you boast. Organs are not on twitter. You most be on twitter are not talking about Hilary catheter banks heard ever rights, just an engineered outrage, but because you ve now seen it in the little box and by the way, there's no twitter never said that the little box of turning hashtags are the things that objectively, the most people are talking about.
The proprietary algorithm that they ve never shared how they come up with it. So it's just a volume is not binding on it. So it's it's a bunch of factors, its speed. It concentration to supposed to measure by reality will answer them you know these are all proprietary companies that don't share how they do it, but it just so happens that if you just do your homework and learn how to reverse engineer it, you can have Effects and then he would just sit me down, explain. Okay, so Watchmen Watch was gonna. Happen is gonna trend. I bet you, that if crystallized picks it up it CNN and then he you know retreats of them brains, daughters, gonna notice. It then he's gonna, be considered talking about it. I know it can end up on the drugs report and Russia's. We'll talk about it and maybe shorthand he's gonna talk about it. Now this guy's, some kind of a profit or genius. Just he's just like this is what he does all day. He pays attention it like being like Turkey is a great, add me and then I would go back to my hotel and wake up the next day and scanned the headlines and be like theirs.
headline, that's like some people are talking about. Maybe Hilary might be sick and like that, because of this guy right mind that's impress like law, ethics aside, that that is really impressive. Yes, and there was a part of me that was like there's com, like an oceans, eleven element of yeah? I've gone like you, dont want them to rob the thing, but your kind alike were held in a poem. Was technology is increased. I have only felt increasingly less support of everything more that the system is so big into think someone as with the other direction. With this in mind, oh no, I can have a huge impact, so here the clear objective of making sure he'll reading an elected right? it also becoming a big. Player in some kind of game, adrenaline Russia directive. You make me from a light, he became a brand. He became a media breath what all the people in my book haven't when I'm it's like two dozen people who make up this sort of ensemble cast from the guy in shock, go to the Nazis, what they're all actually is media creation, media propaganda,
surging they're, not like great political fingers, their great messengers, yeah. Well, I gotta tell you the time I was impressed by the buyer fast We do you watch any of those documentaries I much both of em an effect a company fuck Jerry or whatever it is. They really had engineered this thing with the yellow screen in by got it fucking work and when they were describing it only. Why is this can work in? They were just dead right at work like crazy. You know it s, FUCK Jerry engineered what one of those documentaries, oh right, they they produce the want, which is even like. I watched the one I think as the Netflix, when a camera with one- and I looked at the credit and was like what young any help that it just the point is there's no like floor. Where you go ok, this is where the human fingerprints are on it anymore. It's all the way down I dont have this opinion, but let me just be a conqueror and for one second, I can imagine that in homeless, Anderson going ok,
great. So yet the individual has this power that, in the past, was really held just by the powerful who owned the monopoly of newspapers. I could see where a lot of people would think well. This is then democratize in your piss that your average human being now has sway over what were taken in Brett. Why do you prefer be one of these megaliths? That's setting the the story wanting to take one step further, I'm pissed because I'm losing the power and that equation, because I dont get to sit in the new Yorker and go no. No! No you here is what you should think yeah, I any story, that's worth consuming should be fact check now I am of that opinion, but I can definitely see where people go like the fact that I trust this guy more than your fact, checkers a total and and just numerically speaking, that is true rise right, so I think you're totally right there and I go to some lengthened book in the maybe people think I should have gone to more length to do this to it to be clear, the good old days of game for media were not good old days. There were the huge, massive blind spots that were it's not possible.
Go back to that end is not desirable to go back to them, so it can't be well. Let's just put this genie back in the box, so Oh, it's not an argument driven book in the sense that I'm not like every chapter ends with my checklist of things. We should do right. It's a story in the way and I think the point of getting drawn into the deep complexity stories is to look at all the sides of it and go. This is the complicated and there's no clean solution. We have to work our way I am of the opinion, because you, I don't think you legislator yourself out of this situation. Let all legislation can help, but it's not gonna. I dont you I'd in lesser dismantling, the first amendment. I just don't see a legislative answer to this, so I guess what I would be hoping in the best site of myself would would want You too have figured out some underline part of human experience that lead To this end a sense, maybe I'm wrong, but I once more a great sixty minutes segment on
the sovereign citizens in these people by my definition are in saying you know that they don't, they won't carry a licence, they ve killed all these law enforcement agents, and I have this very interesting view of what it means to be a sovereign citizen, but when sixty minutes looked at it almost without exception, almost every member of that group in the last few years and had a good pain, blue collar job and they where's that and so what was unavoidable was that that was a part of all of their stories in you can't really ignore that. So it's like when you're trying to talk about how to legislatively affect the sovereign citizens I don't want. You can have a lot of success in there, but if we can address the scenario by which these things are born. Out of, I just feel like that's a lot better approach for us and you know it yet it's the answer. Prevention approach. Yes, there, a lot of sort of commonalities and patterns that I encountered and I do try to be clear- that is not a ones It's all prescriptive thing that you know twelve percent
social isolation, mixed with five percent present zone action equals eighty nine percent chance of Nazi like yeah, there's definite economy. Factors for sure, although a lot of people that I encountered were very very bucolic middle class had every handed to them, sometimes there's just personal. Sometimes there is such an addiction to hyper control mechanism, yeah that its One of the ways I I think I described it was like you guys know at the Red Pill- is the sort of obsession with the main check them tricks? He added that the matrix of the red pill analogy from the matrix ends up being used all over the internet to be like, take the red pill and understand to see the true see the truth that were actually sovereign citizens that don't need to respond to law enforcement that where you know that that climate does a hoax whatever they did. These are all red pills ia and I sort said, like there's a kind of personality where you're so addicted, to read pills that you'll just swallow, meeting with a pinkish Hugh without being like
this full of arsenic or is this like? What is this you ass long ass, you like the thrill of it, is so addictive. Yes, so there's that there's personal elements theirs I mean the guy who grew up no porn in Illinois, junk yard. Of course, the system wasn't it for him, and then you know he's told that that you know the problem is that you have too much white privilege is like I do not feel like. I have too much weight river, the iron and again. This is where you get into these tricky, I'm not excusing or saying that. I think he is right about that. I actually feel like it's part of my job, to bring my brain to Baron garlic. I think you're wrong about that yeah. But I do, it is incumbent on us to understand the argument and go ok! Well, this you know will again. I just want to point out
there. Is him being right or wrong about that, and then there is a human being on planet earth that has these feelings in these motivation right and then they are legally there able to act on it. So did just the question is: do you want to have an impact on that? And you know what is the approach for that right us and some of it is broad and systemic, and some of it is personal and sometimes there's a over reliance on everybody wanting to have a clean rosebud moment indelible, that's just a moment if we could just make sure that nobody ever has their slow taken away from them near. They won't grow up to be assholes, but like so that's nice scalable right as the text I say, but it is also important to look at. How are the factors play against each other, so some of it. Is this feeling of don't tell me what to say. I feel him and I can say whatever I want some of it is, I often found people would have a kind of common.
A very high I q and a very low eat you mean. I saw this with one of the sections of my book is actually I embedded at the White House Briefing Room because some of these just absolute Roll performance, artists, type people were in this new timeline wherein getting Whitehouse press credentials. Back to you. I was at that observe all I was sitting at the deplorable MIKE and I need this sort of like because no Milo, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah miles the fabulous British. I think no more had among the aliens on new idea. I've spent a lot I'm a mile or two Milo used to make fun of me. Komio soy boy, forgetting soil, can my coffee, ok and then he would drink hot coffee through a straw, Sweden, Spain has charter, had guy you're making me in that area, but Milo is a kind of species there's like other people who do that thing, like I'm fabulous, I'm unconcerned like that, the trolling that they do is due to be so fabulous.
No one can say anything to them. All press is good progress on its all attention. You're driving me, I'm talking about you, I exactly are the haters love me. I love my haters. You know year ugly, people hate me, that's one of the shirt that Milo I know where is it is just like it's really dumb ethic of or whatever there's a million things to say, but by the way if he doesn't outrageous, he doesn't have a bigger so? Yes, we have to recognise everyone's own role in it, but that is what their training on its the same way, that it is frustrating that people to understand the actual mission of terrorism, which is- low barrier entry act, that war warns and outsize reaction that will cripple states economy that we would point out respond than in the way that we do is. We would know oh we're doing exactly as they would want us, which is very much exactly the intention of trawling yeah. The intention of trolling is to say one little thing. Just like us,
add you're mad and then suddenly you're the centre of attention, and you just get to back off. I mean imagine if you had no experience in leadership or politics or anything except corruption, and you could just say I think this Bisbee I wasn't born in MECCA any shouldn't be present and you got to control mainstream media for as long as you wanted, just by saying that and not having the basic human decency to not say that we get the idea, and then maybe imagine if you could do that enough- that you could literally become president because of it. That would be a great trick you could play sharks, and it turns out. We live in that timelines and there is this concept of fitness that you know Darwinian this means just the fittest will survive. There's also a kind of is. That means like it's like, ethically or morally fit like the news that fit to print. and one of the things that I sort of sort of playing with his a meme like birth tourism. or a meme like a feminist are worse than cancer. Whenever the worst thing you can think of is Somali fit
the darwinian world of social media, It is maximally engineered to be a viral meme and it is zero percent fit in the old gatekeeper, media sense. There is no good gatekeeper, media paper of rigour. It would print in article saying gee. I wonder if this president was born in America true right, but it is perfect cabinet for people to go. How dare you How dare you, sir, and you can not do that there can be. No one in the world who tells Donald Trump he's wrong for saying that, because then you get exactly that's her well knew! No! Nice disagree. I mean I really think look again we're getting dangerously political for the show, but I will say: you're in a bed we made g there's no getting around that there is an if no one ever would have responded to any of the outrageous should he said there wouldn't be one like we are as responsible as anyone that voted for him. If you perpetuating and endlessly talking about and giving attention to and getting them in the new cycle work.
Or were playing along with ice, What I say, I'm glad they're two of you here, because you're just figured out the two. I literally do think you're both right, because what I say in the book is trolls. Set such an ingenious trap because- respond to them is to give them fuel to not respond to them. Is to create the perception that you are ok with our say, yeah neighbour, that alarmed I pushed back on what? Why explain? Why that I dont engage with someone saying something: absolutely ridiculous, like I wouldn't engage with flat Arthur. I'm not gonna waste, my time think they'll earth is flat good good on the and would never ways one second of my time. But what? If you're already and influential person like curving, whose in front of tv cameras and then you're, saying there earth is flat what, if you're being Viewed on tv, I say yeah. I was really glad that we want this game. I really play a defence also, Europe is flat and Bob Layer
at some point, somebody's gotta go away. Don't tell people that that's wrong. Well, I kind of disagree because, on its surface, ninety nine percent of people going to hear that NGO only topic- I things is this. Now I come out and I attack him. Ok now amplified. That message hugely then now something emotional starts happen to someone else who feels like an underdog they don't go on. I ve League school, or they weren't educated, now there's an emotional bond. They have with that person that someone with power status in stature is calling that personnel in the lily them now. They me I've created an ally for somebody who might not even be a flat earth are, but the emotional component is so compelling and so relate above it now there. Finding some guy and then, by virtue of that, defending his position on flat earth. That's the Let's get one hundred percent on represent. There is no way out. I will take that ones too. Further when I go into the world of one of these people, who I think
is bad or wrong, and I read an article in the New Yorker pointing out how their bad or wrong I run the risk of them more exposure and more fans who are going with this egghead elite is whatever the Han just went to go. Prove that you're wrong, but like fuck, that guy Young and also can always add something at another critical eye, but by cherish your role in our society and the fourth estate in all that. But you put your article in the New Yorker guess what it's only reaching people who already thought that, it's all you know you, I'm gonna, Rita Amelia. I totally agree that because I already fuckin subscribe within Europe or so of course I do. Thank you, the other one of the moments that this really hit me. I mean I was constantly thinking at this and costly thing about the trade off its very, very complicated. There were few moments. Where you know somebody would tell me my whole worldview is based on fuck you, smug elite. Mother fucker, you don't get to tell me what to think and then I would go right now quote in the new Yorker, and they would have to put a little action over elite I'd like we're the book,
The only one stage in the arm chair you dare, we are supported by better help. Sometimes life is stressful and hard. Currently, that seems to be the case. We could all use help but may not know how or where it asked for revealing stress or depressed or want professional help with anxiety, insomnia or any issue affecting your well being better. Help is available better help on line counselling offers. Licence professional therapists who specialise in many different areas, including anxiety, depression is will stress, complicated relationships, family conflicts, difficulty sleeping grief, stress, trauma, anger. What I love about this Monica is particularly now when you can't really go out, see any one. This is a great way to check in with somebody exact can be objective about what's going on here and now is the time to get ahead of any cause. It's Althea unaware, stressful right now, plus better up, could not be more convenient, simply fill out a questionnaire to help assess your needs and get matched with accounts or you'll love in less than twenty four hours easily schedule secure video or phone sessions with their pets plus securely exchange, unlimited messages. If, for any reason, you're unhappy with counselor, you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge, get professional help when you want it wherever you are, that our help is a truly affordable option. An arm chair is get ten percent off their first month with the discount Kodak. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slashed acts, that's better help dot com slashed acts. We are supported by Sea MIDI M D with everything shutting down around the nation, it's starting to feel like we're living in the second act of a sea level, syphon movie, so, instead of being one of those expendable characters that goes against the group and puts everyone endanger stay inside and stock up on plenteous c b d to keep you calm through it all. I need some more see. Beady, p, p! M. Ok, ok, that's my less! Is I'm running out and make me nervous now whether you are planning to take a bath and catch up on all those episodes of armchair expert that you missed, or you just want to sleep. The weeks away, our friends at C B, the M d: have you covered ever wide range of superior, see beady products ranging from bath bombs to sleep aids and even products for your stir, crazy pets? So, no matter who your isolated with sea beady empty has something to help you stay sane and to make it even easier to fit c b d m D, India or survival budget there offering arm cherries twenty five percent off when you use the code Dax at check out at sea, VD, M D, dotcom once again that c, b: D, M d, dot com, promo code, Dax for twenty five percent off your purchase of superior, see beady oil products from sea beady empty and the other thing is
Trolling scenario is people who have the power to enact massive cultural or political harm. Spot of it depends on what kind of profound. You have to begin with so there's a difference between some random unknown sky on Twitter, saying, I think there with his flatter. I think whatever versus some, and who is already a massive celebrity who is made actually having some like. If someone goes on tv to my, if Ellen goes on tv tomorrow and says, hey nobody wash your hands and this krona virus thing just do a silly dance and it all work itself out then there's like material harm that might happen. Yeah yeah and so part of it depends on like what are you preventing but again the got smaller when he says that no response to me that files him into the oh he's not in front a seven eleven. Now, if
if our Baldwin engages with that guy, now he's not a knot in front of seven eleven he's like out Balkans. Taken, I'm serious, you know I'm not in front of seven live here. Anyone says the earth is flat. Is a fucking not in your perspective, but he has a lot of fans and people who believe what he says, whether they should or shouldn't they do. I don't know if I buy that I think they stand with him, but I dont know. If convert your opinion, I don't know if we can, in the current year make the argument people with insane just objectively wrong opinions. Hold real power. yeah. We can't run that review all it's not even a risk. The present does then climate change is happening. He has its like that. That's the most dangerous fact about the world. We live in Raina, so it can't be like what everybody knows. Climate changes will because of the very identity formation tangle were in because as people go, I don't want the egg heads telling me what to do with my car and my air conditioned whatever were in the tangle right,
I agree with you that the steps we took to get into it were part of this vast complex finger traps, an area that we all lead. two in our own ways and were blinded to and partly because of the text. Just ass, we were talking about we blundered into this collectively near, but let me just as what do you do? You believe that they should say the names of the mass shooters while this something I think about all the time with. I don't even know whether to name the people in store in my story, I name them in the book because of you know journalistic all kinds of reasons: there's some but I dont because they were sources were trusting me with their anonymity, but I do The naming them on a tv show is different. I think what kind of picture you choose to show of them and does it glorify them? I think these are all difficult easing of we kept them entirely. Anonymous and there was no glory, and there was no sense that they would finally have gotten their come up and see, but you would have to you would have to learn their name. You'd have to know about them. These are people who feel like they didn't exist and they want to hurt as many people as possible to be seen.
I think seen them proves the the Of works well, I'll tell you there's one woman who I did a lot. section of the book about who have price spent more time. Talking to than any of them, and actually she never want anyone to know her name. She did was not in it for the thing she wanted to be part of something He wanted to have an identity. She wanted to feel like she was someone and not even in a famous power since just like wanted to be part of a community, and I think we all know people who don't the way they see themselves as by seeing themselves reflected back from other people, just one of those people, I, who am I I'm the way people respond to me. And she was really good at service. She was a good bar tender for this reason, because she is very good at creating an intimate into the intimacy. With someone like an immediate intimacy with a strange and she she grew up New Jersey, a lot of friends of
and races and whatever she also knew that her grandmother grew up in the thirties in Germany, but didn't really tough. But I very much. And then she moved to a new place, then really know a lot of people started dating a guy who spent a lot of time on the internet and would sort to make these jokes. The generally understand he would like make it between Jews and white people and she black white juice, like the rightly and he'd be like what we'll talk about it This is over like months and months and months and shoes kept getting more and more these clues and then one day he said something about the day of the rope and she was like Is it just a job like today the rope and she would it on her phone and a red at Saint came up splaining what it was answered, the It is from the book that was found in Timothy Mcveigh Car and it's the fantasy of? What's gonna happen when the White Nationalist rise up so then sheep drivers since as what the fuck did, and he says ok, so I am, I am a fascist and if we white people
stick up for ourselves: we're gonna get wiped out and they're gonna. For us and they're gonna genocide, Us- and I don't believe I actually proposing that we do these violent things, I'm just joking about that, but I do think that and when actually said to her was when I first heard these costs, They were so shocking to me in viscerally, almost off putting to me that I almost turned away, but I, but I then I looked more deeply and I realized that there she's getting out a deeper truth, which is that we white people are endangered and the Jews are the ones engineering, the whole thing and because they have this, super your intelligence. They are kind of the puppet masters of this entire, you know and then, and then he basically started, showing her all these little sort of clues liked. You notice how this is something they never mentioned: the media. They never talk about the immigration laws were changed in nineteen sixty five. Why do they do? That
they want you to see that well, look who owns all these media companies and bubble button, historic, take her down these paths and she had the visual reaction that you would have issues like no way. I'm out, I'm never seeing this guy again here, if the house crying all the way home go back replacing just said, I want to see one website that he was not just to see what it it's, because I don't wanna be close minded. I wanted to know what it is sure opens up. The website I've. Never read this fact about this thing. I've never seen this perspective on this thing goes from that to that to that that five days later. She calls him back and says: oh, come on your team oh wow. Eventually, they called her the first lady of the all right and she actually we'll be mad at me when she heard this because she's a big fan of the show Oh Jesus, don't say that because I didn't tell you, I didn't tell you that the real melon still it is because she worked away,
Ok, we're back we're both you almost caused a huge by between I, no, no, no, no, not she's short round the she started from the Normie world of listening to this shows a big fan of Dan Savage used to drive to work, listening to dance, savage and then she actually because this is- I mean the way I got to tell her story was by just spending hundreds hours just being like You thinking, then, where are you feeling than in one? the things and these are just ran. These are things that you would get to unless you got, they did, but she was like in what one I started going- why am I to listen to like people, time of fifteen or whatever, just crazy dance average sex stuff, but I'm not I to listen to a show about how white people are. Ok, Now again, this is one of these things. That is deeply deeply wrong now, but from her specific prospect. Where she had never been a knock.
It against certain ideas in the proper way and she'd never read the kind of books that whatever like whatever she was coming, whatever she needed emotionally or personally, it hit her because she was when love this guy and all the stuff it hit her in it made sense to the point where they got her too, like you know what we're gonna do. We're gonna go down to Charlottesville Virginia was in torches, but would you There are two just show that we don't have any we just want to stick up for ourselves because we have a right to exist and- and She just was like yeah. I guess that might be a good idea, She actually went to one demonstration and droughts fell before there was one before the big one Second, when she was at work so go, she saw the woman hold on tv and then and then she was just like ok, something my life has gone horribly wrong. It shattered her. It shattered her. I need to get out. She called me. Oh wow, because through a series of connections I was kind of known in that world. They didn't want to talk to me, but they knew who I was right. and she said. Okay, I wanna talk to some
who understand, this world, but he's not in it. she was so confused and turned around that she would go. I know Holocaust happened, but did it really happen? no like, was it really six million? What if it was just like a thousand ten thousand under and was not an eye. It happened and she's like I know I know but an quick what if it was ten thousand right, but what? If A leader decided that people should kill rights further. Religious belief while that emailing killed them thou. That too I guess I don't see, the number has been as material they. They It matters because the Jews have been using this you'll notice that I am come because I'm jewish, I can ventriloquist that voice and kneeling. I'm ok, but, like their theory, is that Jews have used this victim narrative to get whatever
what a rise, what has to be that big inflated number for them to get right in all this bubble? Blood sympathies Emily. Yet if you talk to this woman, she It's funny she's charming! You talk about bands with all day long near there just was just a big enough inside of her, but this one is, actually she got up so this is a useful one. Not everybody in my book got out and I still after all, the time she's, the only one of all the people that I spent all the time with my book, who I thank my acknowledgements, we greens, the only one who I feel like I can have a relationship with right because she got out the other people I told you they are trying to give me a propaganda line and I have to step through it and her. It was a process just like those all these coupled things need to be present for her to sink in. There are all these other factors that needed for her to come out there I would, though her grandma. and she had this complicated set of feelings about that she,
actually rose up in the movement more quickly than he always. I resented her yeah. Well, a lot of the you might not be surprised to learn that a lot of the people who build their identities around racism and Anti Semitism in massage any rely on women to do a lot of the work in the moment. For them, women have done them all the work and all the things. Always there were a lot of times when literally they organizing their next ticket rally and she was like I want to make. The spreadsheet has no one else is doing at the guys are too busy working at deem. It demand Joey Alpha and doing nothing, yes, exactly and ranting on their nazi podcast, one actually one of the ways she found me because I wrote a piece about the kind of mean podcast of that movement, which is called the Daily Shoah, which is a very hilarious pon, because I'm intolerant asked awhile. So I want a fine job he has said so. This is one thing, but the thing is, and this
again. This is sort of dangerous territory, but like sometimes these guys are Wendy. Some I mean the daily Shoah. They had one show called nationalist public radio they had. One called The nation they like now they're, not Eddie right right. They they had like one episode, they put out in September called white after Labour Day. like money writing about another of these guys who this was the show she was listening to as she was getting indoctrinated and their end its not yelling. It's not hate this person, he that person, it's being part of a group having in jokes ever having all these acronyms. Now these and others, it's they courtship hosting What you do online on for China, unrighted whatever's, whatever you ship, puts you just whatever ship pops into your head. It's like a group chat, that's what they would act out and they would be like you guys and, as you know, Picasso very intimate form you feel like you there you feel like you're in the room, so she D I feel like these are my these are my dude. I'm there I'm part of their joke. You know the first
episode. I listen to you know they're talking about half the time now, I'm part of their community. It's like open Anthony for he's right, that's what they pattern it after it's. So it's designed to inculcate you in indoctrinate you that guy, who made that show he's the guy with the black brother in the jewish. What I found him because when Charlottesville happened he had been anonymous, you'd been podcasting under a pseudonym. He grew up in the most idyllic the brutal his parents were professors, his dad taught Beowulf. They adopted this by racial kid, his her was was very accomplished in the sort of Normie world and he was addicted to this kind of the way I can get. A certain type of reinforcement were feedback, even if its negative, to be surgically able to demolish anyone's argument. Even if it's the right argument, so. He was a guy thanksgiving who'd like oh,
you know you think you're so cool for being weakened, but let me actually day I M more Soyuz Morse for the environment that, like he, was that shark about everything and that led him to be a communist for awhile. Ok, cause like you, You think you're so cool being bourgeois liberals, but you actually don't stand up for your principles and you actually aren't redistributing wealth in the way that you claim to be. He was really into anti war. Afghanistan, stuff, you really care about the afghan people. Why are you supporting this democratic party? That rights are? not run about right right. He just is too addicted to the thrill of demolishing people with those argument near them. Internet comes whose life he's Mary to this jewish woman, but they're kind of like reckless, as they normally go out that much he spends all this time on the internet on these message, boards demolishing and destroying people going into these message boards and going here, is why your damage, if you believe in God years, why your damn, if you, whatever it doesnt matter, it's like a video game Thea. He gets so good at this that he be his identity around. What can get the most traction of people, they call them rage, quits
Can I collect the most rage quits, where people have so much that they have to leave the internet ah, and he gets addicted to that kind of like collecting trophy like or getting block, probably getting blocked coming back with a new name. He and his buddies would all brigade into these rooms together and go we're gonna. It's like liberals here, We can create all these liberal tears by border. So at that, when he's its guessed, but then because he has been you know, adopted by the Trotzky ass. He has to find a way to pass them on which are so then he says: what's the books that you guys are the most afraid of and those who like these rotarian tomes about how government should exist when he goes and reads those books of any becomes converted. Libertarianism many ethical piss off the libertarian. So then it goes well. It like so then, is exhausting the fate of crazy. So then you get to a point where you go the problem Protectionism is that you pretend that all people are equal, but they're, not so if I really have free
I should be able to create a covenant of other people where we're all white and we don't let anyone else it that's the short version of how you get from libertarians White nationalist right and it's not a random again. I don't pick don. were random examples. This happens to a lot of people who deliberately to all right pipelines what they call it ah allow. So he goes to this place. where he goes, I have taken the ultimate Readville, The one thing in our society that you're not allowed to say is white and are the real oppressed group. Aha, Jews are not actually white they're. The ones were secretly controlling us. Why do you think I was going into all these costly foreign wars because the Jews that's what they caught her zionist occupied government. The Jews have decided that in Israel's in we're going to do so. bless the Middle EAST so that Israel is the only democracy left standing there.
many many layers of this and it's all a conspiracy theory. So one give it too much you didn't, but it's all mapped out is the point. It's not blind. Hatred needs very, very over thought. Hatred LA its systematic it's like. We have to spend hours and hours and hours explaining to because it so deep and when you are the kind of all the conditions are in the right place for you to get laid down that path. I can tell from talking to enough these people. It is genuinely thrilling. It is a genuine process of intellectual discovery, that is wrong we're, but that by their lights, is exciting, like there's this moment in Hock thin where HAWK Thin realises Jim is actually a person slave that he's on a raft with he has this epiphany that, like I know what my society has told me. I have this intuition that this guy is person and I'm going to be all my life around defending that they have the opposite explained and either way you go. It's like a conversion moment sober
this woman. She is now peace in your life back together and going I've essentially made the worst mistake. I can make and in a weird way, it's like cancer. ever work her way. Out of that, remember she wasn't at Charlottesville. Were somebody got hurt? She was at the other one. She never physically hurt anyone. I have people, my wife was a public defender for a long time. She defended people who really did hurt people in every time. We would talk about them or bring them up with friends. Everyone would go. Well, I hope I hope is okay. I hope he works. his way to rehabilitation. I hoped they would have nothing but kind. To say about someone who was trying to do that society and then up one of these people who had these bad ideas and felt that about it and they like that person is just
fuck him forever do yeah. Now it's another problem is like, but yeah, I'm not disputing the anger towards those people, I'm not disputing the discussed. I have it. It's all about what the solution and I dont think further alienating further demonizing for others exists. I dont think that, unfortunately, is the solution like compassion, the solution, preventative stuff solution, with the understanding that you don't have to ever soften you're, not by the weight justice with compassion in what I believe in the pit. People who do shit need to pay the price for that, but doesn't mean you can't make an effort to understand how it started. without a hand, or you know, and in a way the fact that I I wasn't intending to go to the actual out now white nationalist Anti Semites, but when I do in a way. I found it easier because I'm jewish too, ok? There is no part of me that is worried about getting sucked into their world right, so I can actually look at it with more clarity when I was talking to the pick up,
MR the massage Minister, whenever I was like ninety nine ensure that I wasn't gonna, be persuaded by internet, but there's always a chance like sure maybe there might be some court, but once you're talking to a guy who wants you to be incinerated like anything, can it be persuasive to me like yeah so, and there were these moments where they would be talking to me that that guy the Daily show a guy, we talk for hours and he was crying and we into some really deep staff, and then he was telling me about the book. The changed his life, the book, the told him about the Jake you just what they call it the jewish question. This is the book. It read pulled him on the Jake you and he told me- really get it you're gonna, it's gonna blow your Montenegro's wait, you're, not like good you're, not a Jew. Are you the other yeah you were. Maybe should I like your homework done. You re surrender, I'm not hiding it. I'm not. You know like why. I I mean you had red hair and like that kind of sad through me off, and
yeah. I don't want to tell you like when I hear people using these terms, I literally think they must never honestly never met someone jewish. They must not even know what they're you know. What I'm saying must be such a foreign thing to them that they could think this. This is what this guy he grew up. in Jersey early. choose everywhere he went icicle as aircraft. Oh, I don't even have a weird remind China did. Did he in that moment, when he's in front of you and your saying yeah? Is he vis the bully, while this was over there on that he was audibly. Embarrassed he's deftly embarrassed embarrassed I had. Actually we were supposed to go to rush about dinner that I had cancelled to spend my Friday night talking to an hour and we we didn't a meeting up and he wanted to meet at a german beer hall, which we did and I went to meet him at a german beer all which was his way of trying to troll me and throw me my game, and I was like
the amendments Yoda german beer, Hollis, and that by the way he lived in the Upper EAST side of Manhattan, all really whom it is never what you think it is very shocking. You have a cartoon character, I do of those people and that's not the K. It's almost. Never I mean Stephen noise from Santa Monica people. Are never now a lot of these guys that people have mentioned so far when two barred, Pepperdine just never it's never think and part of it is. I mean some of them, they're, not all whatever. The identical kind of intellectual profile, but the peace, become leaders in this moment? Maybe the people who are good at picking apart news narrative inserting themselves and hijacking it dates, skill that they have to acquire that they have to deduce how to do so. I do think all this stuff is argument for actually, immersing yourself narrative Lee in people's lives? I think the only way you can actually walk that fine line between excusing
engaging is to actually like go through the process nursing yourself in that world and not try to get to the bottom because the bottom line is these. People are bad. The internet should probably we'd be reorganized. So it's not playing to our worst instincts. We should try to build more of come x and robust systems so that we don't drive ourselves off a cliff like those are the answers that everybody, I think would agree, are the answers. The challenge is, how do you get their yeah and I just don't think you can get there unless you delve into the complexity of it a little bit because again, This'Ll will be unpopular too, but I am kind of a hard core labour person in that this place. It's gotta be open for the very best ideas in the very worst ideas in you can't just lopped off the part you dont. Why I, like you gotta, take, it's a whole recipe that I'd. I want those good idea, so, unfortunately, I have to you not protect people's rights abbeys, terrible idea. Yes, and I think the thing I where I often like, go to push A little bit is to say nobody really. Nobody wants to diminish free speech
thing that I dont like is when we seem to suggest that what follows from that is because free speech, is a value. Therefore, it can't be intention with other values, so I can all devalue, free speech to be absolutely sacrosanct, but I'll I have to be realistic about the fact that it has externalities. It has other things that are concurrent with it that it can be problem so in the same way that I want to be able to have. People have this is an you know. They have an economy, does not centrally planned that doesn't mean that I dont look at that and go oh. If your polluting a river do that or you yeah, if you, if you have carbon emissions, that that's not a problem, so sometimes we blind ourselves because we go none of free speech. That's the end of the convention. Free speech, is the most and the least in the end that that's all we can say yeah, unlike what I have started sort of pushing toward is like ok, free speech, and creating a society where were not just completely like it ourselves from the inside because of our allegiance to speech and the absence of all other value, well,
I was confronted with this on a personal level, which is the rights of journalists, so that umbrella shelters protects Pavarotti, and so when I had a kid and I started noticing all these people are living in my front yard and there, like attacking kids, I'm playgrounds right eye at least quickly recognise like I'm not going to enter into an argument that they don't have the right to do that. I just they do they have a protected right now, but you also have the protected right to shit on your dining room table, there's no laws and America against shooting on your dining room table. So you can have calls the action that don't involve legal eggs right, so mine was like. Yes, you are they have a right to do that as they have a right to shit on their dining room table, but I'm employing people to recognise how these photos or work and it may be that I want to participate in the same way that if you have an economy, that's built on getting clicks by sniping children's photos yeah, that's a bad economy to build in the same way that, if you have deconstructed, all
the things we ve ever been able to use to distribute information or knowledge or news or whatever you decoupled, all of that and real built it in a way that is engineered to be a slot machine for people's quickest and worst emotion, reptilian membrane, and then you go, will look. That's just what people want to click on an who and free speech Yannick, none in and out you. Yes, people should have the freedom, will the slot machine but you're also engineering it so that their stuck there and their wearing diapers and they're losing their homes yeah you built a bad economy, so it doesn't mean that I want the government too to run in sees your casino, but, like we got up, build something better, yeah NASDAQ. Largely how I feel about internet. It's not yea, everything's great, it's not on a river gives? How do we work our way out of the system, we ve in the same way that we need to rebuild our cities. We need to rebuild our food chains. We need to rebuild our economy so,
and finally, I met has progressed it. We have we seen the nay dear of this or is continuing to get worse or you tell me where we had a media. The history of its kind above his color What are you in a sense that you know the kind like generals are always fighting the last war, the loopholes from, four years ago, are largely being closed. You you can't buy and add in an american election with roubles right, which you could do in twenty six right. So it would be crazy if they didn't closed that loophole and they did YA but the bigger vulnerability of literally. I know it sounds from so silly, but like the no to your point of sympathy as like, you didn't know that that was gonna be a loophole until you saw someone is building a new idea. How quickly do act when that brought to your attention and others are all questions? Man? Ok, you close that loophole, but are you still premising all of human information in sharing and dissemination around what is going to immediately viscerally excite people? Yes, we are still doing that media, so the law,
our job on our ability hasn't been clothes. Are you noted I? If I could use an analogy, I think we're in the we're in the seventies. Right now, with the advice, of all this one food that turned out to not be food and right now it is like fucking aid, this shit's tasty powder, honour and five minute hop. Yes, any microwave this right. Well, I think we were in the exciting, like immediate response reward of it all I hope, to think that we will be correcting like we did with our food. Some gas- and you know there is also an element of like how capitalism works where you you have to reckon with the idea that, once you are a craft and you have shareholders at they. You feel some fiduciary responsibility to you're. Gonna proudly try to bear The food science that is trying to use tankers stop rise. Yes, that's just kind of the system we ve built in terms of corporate capitalism. Yet, and so now everything seems to be justified by well. I just have a responsibility to the shareholders psych here, but don't you responsibility like make sure you don't touch,
anymore, genocides or such like. He has also responsibilities and ye sounds very serious. Squishy in you know whatever, but it's like. Yes, you do, have responsibilities other than one responsibility me yes, and this is something that people who work in the fourth estate are sort of comparable with because Businesses are businesses, but there also like mission driven businesses net. It doesn't. A perfect and they make mistakes all the time and whenever, but you couldn't in my world, make the argument of like it. This is good for the business, so I'm just gonna makes it up just gonna write. It doesn't work, there's a dual kind of bottom line: yes and what you striving for you. Don't we achieve it but the reason that I am motivated to do. Do and work hard at it is that I feel like people are trying hard, achieve something other than to make a buck someone somewhere else. That is a hard
to sustain, and in fact it won't be sustainable for very long and journalism is really really endangered right now. For that reason, yeah, but you have to figure out how to do that if you want it like look yourself in a mirror, well, I am a super impressed that you dedicate the amount of time that you have to attempt to understand the staff, because the again, I think, lobby, insults from afar, isn't necessarily gonna yield any forward movement. Book, Annie, Social, Ty social or anti social. What would you guys programme and anti social online extremists Techno Utopians in the hijacking of the american conversation? I implore everyone to check this book out. I can imagine that it would only help us as we navigate this thing. We spend
increasingly more more time- and so I am really glad. There's people like you, I'm grateful. There's publications like the Yorker, were you know your supported in that, and these things are so valuable and worth protecting them, I think, you're on the right side of everything so you so much Andrew for common in talking to access and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul made Monica bad men who had baby boy stay, be able. Did you like that bar when she sings baby boy? added Maybe I did like it
it's one very, very, very tiny part out of that made the whole song about my you. Ain't got, the name of the song was baby bore, yeah, we're speaking about Alisha Keys, still more broadly still be talking about. In the months ahead, acts was trying to look for her song, baby boy raw and did a bunch of Google and couldn't find anything but turns out. It is a small Iraq in diary. That's right! That's right! That's exact!. and you love it? You just want to keep saying it over and over. I was wondering why it wasn't having the same impact on you. It was me- and I was thinking- maybe maybe this guy's desire to a girl, call them baby boy. Do you, then I think. Maybe we really. I think that might be part of it, this measure the way she says it like be able like we wanted to call back we way. This is worth living in a sorry, Andrew Sir Andrew we'll get them. You can come back, but this is important, because you want to be taken care of.
Man, you line for young mothers, love. Maybe tat sounds like a mother's. What they want to be nurtured, even though they also want to be really get away from us. We want to shoot guns and take over that they're just baby boy, that's right at beggars there like a pet name or something that you would like if you're watching Matt Damon Movie and he was being intimate with some co star and he called her like acute name. Could you imagine yourself going like? I want him to call me yeah, of course, what would it be snicker doodle abstraction, Joe now or done? he calls me a section a lot about about about others. To do ye. Keep you see grimly you dont stirred eyes for desiring think that's that those words are in the song, but I dont think none of these words are important. That sort. I think it's just that you like to be nurtured, yellow railroad
I have a very nurturing mom near the end, wife and wife, and I would like mad to call me baby boy. Wonder but ok, ironically girl little girl sounds a little baby low per WWII Salisbury and like a power play like I'm above the power move, yeah exactly so. I wouldn't like that baby woman, I arrived Equally, I have the same thing like. I would want it to be a nurturing, not a baby name but like sweetheart, or something like that. baby bog. Were they a bog, both gonna girls. I don't wanna, be called while I was there, I don't want to be called baby, but I do think I do like that. core. You think I would like that you're no baby bug big
baby bug they because people are fleeing nurtured. They do we all like being nurturing. We like feeling safe, but there were also selfish little pieces ships as soon as we been nurture, never get away from me. Mom yeah, lineal world piece of shit. Aren't we we want like max nurturing on our time we were in the moonlight and then the second or not, where I get out of my space here on their way here. The men, among the other, for example, are not navigating perfectly like when I'm median when I meet autonomy, it's up to you to tell people what you need. Yeah yeah There is no Reimer reason to it either am I cold we are here, but is confusing for everyone. If your chain Not you I mean in general, unpeopled change the rules up on other people. It's not fair to the other person. Unless you're communicated
another reason we just need a motion. Hats, like you, got five six hats yeah the puppet on. It's like I'm feelin, needy pop Hassan, clear Signal, visual, even it's an allowed environments and see the hat from across the room again go nurture my baby bug awe and then another hats like red and it's like says I got we'll talk out on it or something really aggressive. That's like I'm autonomous right now, a real man, but you know it's a bit of a cop out cause you could just use your were oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, be part of it is, I think. Sometimes we don't know. We personally dont know what we need at the exact moment, or we can't we know, sort out our emotions. Maybe think we want to talk to me, but really we are feeling needy, yeah yeah or it's like. We want to feel safe and then the second we feel safe than we feel free to go play in gaol. Vat not need it near the edge of this woman called you baby bird too weak
defenceless too. I like baby on its own, but I don't like baby at another word linking it to animal kangaroo? I think Matt could probably say any of these seem to me and I'd be happy. I been feel good baby squirreled squirrel. The Earl a q is what did here. What did your mom call? You dancer? as she still calls you there and then she had a song she say might exert, might exert my big strong. There are able to see your smart enough. She knew too, like me, calling me a little baby, but then also say my great big dax wow. She knew how to play me like a fiddle what, if, when you were just saying this on right now, Davy boy was in the all in there we discovered at the outer. Yes, she go might answer my answer, my great big dogs or yeah. She was really smart. She made me feel great big, but I was
There is the matter baby melting into her arms, and did she have a sound, very your brother and your sister? I know that she calls my sister of baby rabbit. She does see out which is so sweet and my mom, her totem animals, Arabin yeah infect your neighbors. You sent me a pitcher this morning, her neighbours put a welcome gift. Could she moved into a new neighbourhood, but a welcome gift on her porch and it was about baby rabbit figuring. That scares you felt like it was a sign from the universe. Ah, Spiers Simum Part will no doubt have been a silver dollars. She thinks she find silver dollars everywhere that he is leaving them as he was really into silver dollars and you I'm pretty outrageous claims and she got photographic evidence. I don't know you know it's fun. It's my moment. I have different
that's where we divert us. She believes in some supernatural stuff that I dont ok, but I trust her so much and so she's had a couple. Different goes experiences when her father and I take em at face value. Like a thing she had those experiences, I dont believe in that, but I also believe she had those experience, yeah so apparently she's finding silver dollars every couple minutes night, that's so sweet and there really is an even worth trying to figure out whether you will be the winner me prove into her. That's not how tags effect, but I'm tempted I'm really timetable, because, although like that from her, she says like all this happened on the crews that she took my niece gone. They looked in the change, whereas it was happening there. They both agreed how many companies, over two hours or and this change version there is like three or four and they our back to the room after a day at short, and there was one on the ground and then they looking to change worsen, there's like five or six, and then he took a picture of it. So I go straight to who
the fund, mystery. What I know is that Barton didn't come out of the clouds and put the money, and so I have to that she's lying about stop a guy or I've got explain this word. These silver dollars come now and then I get really excited about trying to figure out a plausible explanation for this other than Barton descended. The haven't, but I gotta be careful that I'm not doing it out loud agree it. You should let her have bad and believe that she wants to believe you remember a man in black whenever they would show up and they go. There is a league of Methane gas cloud from a local swamp and it was ignited by a flash both of white like they would make up. This is crazy thing that happened to explain how the alien they desire, like that's funny great movie, that again, I've seen it in so many years that I don't remember anything about it. When I was the first one is a masterpiece, we could well Psmith Marathon, fuckin logger did your dad call you any pet names, you got me tax, or do we do
ah here about Grotius, our staff? It didn't bother meter now reviewing their make informed decisions. We also you know it's a superhero most of the time I was super tax and I would show up- and I would rescue her from all kinds of situate has lent its you. It's just should play a role, so there also trades raised when they get right on the job, about no evolution early as giving everyone from age ah the address you were all the time and had a cape and everything you know the whole nine ok, Andrew Andrew Marines did Joan Didion, say: writers are always telling someone out. Yes, she did say that in the preface upper book slouching towards Bethlehem reviewer, she did say that insurance
Fifth, he said read it gets more traffic than Twitter or Amazon or Netflix. So he then emailed me hard to say I don't believe we're gonna be ok, he emailed me after he said I think I said that read it gets more traffic than Amazon or Twitter. That was true and I wrote the book, but might not be true. Any more given a fast. He sings change. And that's? U S traffic, not world traffic! Ok! Ok! So I have not distinguish world verses. U S cause eyes! Read this after. I did my research consistent too, but when we are you well movies or toys. Well, world versus slow is the big question by According to my research, twitter has three hundred and thirty million active monthly users, and that sounds right from the last when I did with Adam Missouri and read. It has four hundred and thirty million active monthly users, so that is more than twitter job
I believe the twitter claim the Amazon I dont believe them. Ok, yes, so on Wikipedia list of most popular websites, Amazon is above read. It ok, yeah. I also shocked by but he knew Armani arms on every six. Oh, my god, I now I mean honest or an Netflix biggest Netflix. I didn't see Netflix on the list above read it so, and networks would have to be done in a different way. Could certainly, they dont have over three hundred million subscribers they'd be all of America right. But if you added up been the attention economy, how many hours people spend a narrow eggs verses right it? I that to me, would be a toss up here either. ok does John Oliver say: business daddy. Yes, it takes a job at each be apparent eighteen t over terrible service. I got U business daddy really. For me, he said that the pod cast the Daily Shoah was like, Opium Anthony for Nazis, but I didn't know what Opium Anthony was to do: yeah, ok
Anthony is a very, very popular radio, chauffeur deputy. I didn't know that I mostly know about these people here, listening to Howard hours, of course, aware of all his peers, Savishna Titian and internal toggle. So as all my opinions of all these people are pretty skewed by here, but I have done the opium and Anthony show how you ve been on at the Essen New York, who had never heard of it. Ok, is it anti social or anti social according to the general pronunciation, on line when hype and how to pronounce in that thing comes up its t social, Anti social yeah like me. Aunt, social, that I would have said anti he's super anti social, I would say, but I would say that's pretty anti social. If I was describing summons behavior, you asked me that I was feeling an antisocial.
I would have asked you if you are feeling antisocial yeah. That's it yeah, proud. I might add that I would have said you are acting a bit anti social, oh, oh, my god, my caribbean, caribbean, yeah, caribbean queen. That's all that's all right! Well, I love you. I love you baby boy.
Transcript generated on 2020-04-15.