Andrew Marantz is a journalist, staff writer for The New Yorker magazine and author of Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians and the Hijacking of the American Conversation. Andrew sits down with the Armchair Expert (pre social distancing) to discuss working as a journalist and specifically his time researching internet trolls and the direct ways in which they impact society. He talks about his experience getting to know many white nationalists and the revelation they aren’t always people you would expect. Dax wonders if there is an effective way to attack hateful ideologies without forgoing free speech and Andrew encourages social media companies to implement more foresight.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome! Welcome armchair expert experts on expert. I'm Shepherd I'm joined by Maximus MILES below our do a maximus feeling Maximus today, oh good. I, like you and your maximum it's Saturday, even though days or nothing. It's still the weekend, solar still gonna celebrate winner of a really interesting gentlemen. Today, by the name of Andrew Moraine to use an american author and journalists, he wrote the two thousand nineteen book is really interesting. He gets to know people there.
all worried about how it sounds in the moment of course, right right, but I'm literally the only person who will ever hear it yeah, so I'm very used to doing interviews in a way. That's really like repetitive, asking to see fur magazines. I'm like you know I could be there
in other relationships, your hopefully not being as weird so true, it's laying right, you know, look, there's obviously good sides to what journalists do and honour thing truths that the world needs to here, and there are pieces that are just profiles are celebrating some mouse backed right. That's how you would like totally all the time and lay there are times where, like, for instance, I did a profit, this was really nervous was like please like she's such a nice. Personally, please don't do a hit slam at this woman having like the time
and I'm just like. I'm gonna take her down like a Europe. That is not what I'm here to do, but but but depending on your ambition level, at the stage of your career, if you're trying to break out and make a name for yourself that you can see where that's on the table for some people, how, when there are always ways there, I mean three times when I was like, I could, ever cause there are. There are built in checks and incentives and there's obviously I mean with the new Yorker particularly there is this extensive fat checking process there might be lawsuits, but with every piece, but your essentially the peace has been reported beyond. But he always has a chance to way, and so there's that, but ultimately trying to do have to say to people like you can't. I just have to trust
to pass through your felt How light hearted, I'm saying that my delivery, all these different things that get lost in print, I have agreed to do for the party and then, over the next three days, I convince myself Oh, my god, it was. This is gonna, be a hatchet thing like you, she was posing as someone who actually likes to show, but then we got into other issues that are sticky and am I you know she the home in on those things: that's all right there and I set it off. Her name is Eliza Breath Eliza, where a lovely she was incredibly Lumley
the journalists side in this, and ultimately she did right by you right. I don't blame people who reasons you know, I hang out in a lot of spaces where people like you fucking of that argument. Ye for Digital get where the sentiment comes from Muslim, always taken a risk. It's always a cost benefit. I mean Lauren got burned. I someone who or the cover of New York magazine, ended up being Saturday night dead and it was. Our luck saw land and you can make em look bad so that,
not now, and this is happening, and so they actually so then. I had to to sneak around and again. This is not like me trying to like bust some need to do a peace that I think is worthy of said. That I think, is good, yes and I think and if you don't see that at work yeah sure anyway, it took a long time for me to like work my way onto the set. I got there the week that Lucy K was hosting one day and there's a lot of just shooting the shit in between takes NEA, and I really
Keenan Thomson Mikey Day, we're looking out in Brooklyn and they were like just doing down, it's about, like I hate that billboard and I fucking banks, because banks like this, just whatever they saw here and then they saw Jews, so sure and went, and I fuckin hey Jews, because Bob a hot- and in that moment I'm Joe S was no part of me. That was like, oh, my god, she hates juice like zero, zero percent right, but I was like, if wanted to destroy everyone's urine. Yes, yes, yes, it just would not, and so I just had to very quickly do the math and my brain of like. Is there any If everything is to tell Christian when she was cancelled, so I think we all but virtually lived together, monkeys her living now and
yet criminal say something we're like yeah. That's it. You cancel drivers that was being broadcast. Everyone you're out. That's it that's a rap on you ain't. Even she Kristen bow the perverse eying. They could get her cancer. We always earlier many times a day, wives also hard to write things when you have the little cancellation angel in Devil on your shoulder yeah. I can't imagine its helped your access or year the openness of people. It doesn't help with access to other people. It also doesn't help me, as a writer, to be free enough to write things down, even as a first draft has allowed. The process of writing is too does try stuff arrows. She had at the wall, read at a week later and see if it works, and it's hard to be like. Oh, my god, I can't even type that he ass soon ass. He s so
relax. I'm better word its impressive, that any of that level of Gaul of like arms gonna. It's crazy will end. The people that I was covering for the last few years have a similar kind of gall to them. They really. I mean I was covering a lot of people who they knew nationalists never ever identify as racist and would be very offended if you said that rights and there would be a few moments, if not endless moments where they would sort of be like, what's your deal, man like what are you doing here, power,
Questions have different answers. Maria and I was very clear with myself, but I am also maybe not gonna say you like. I can't say something: that's not true. I couldn't say to them. I love everything you do, I'm a big fan, the actually. Let me just back of her head. A second just say that your book, anti social, online extremists, Techno, utopians and hijacking of the american conversation is the book that stand that you. It is started maybe as an exploration of trolls and then you were observing them online and then you wanted to get in front of them in front of the real people that was creating all these things yeah. Well, so it would. It really started, as was add people doing online what it really started, as was what is the internet doing to us? Ah ha. What is the internet doing to us as a society? What's it doing to us psychologically emotionally? What's it doing to our belief, structures which you know
it wasn't like the question here and it felt like it'll get the side. I always felt a little bit kind alike. idolize. You know like some of the best writers in the world like walking past a diamond mine? Do you want to buy a secret gun holster? I didn't have the foresight to do like a separate, Workin personal account
lights and Stephen over for the algorithms like who are you who yeah you're describing my Netflix, because my kid sign into my name? Does I get recommended all these unicorn cartoons and I think while they are off based on me, I think it's gonna quoted is confused. The algorithms dismounted not share, but so it started out as these kind of more abstract questions in less than a political context. It didn't seem like a politics story at the time it seem like maybe attack story, a business story, a kind of culture, never go to any homepage ever anymore. It's just your feed, throwing things in your face, NEA that an goes for everything that goes for brands, companies, people whatever it's all just sort of based on what the
during the most extreme, immediate emotions NEA as possible quickly, and so those are good fuel for action? Yes, yes, and specifically, the actions of click, scroll SH, Air comment, those are literally the only things the offer them can measure. Yes, the algorithm can't reach into your brain and go. I found this thing really made. You think it really changed. You really made you a better person that it is just blind to all of in a way that wasn't intentional. When these you know Silicon Valley, disruptor people set out to do this. I think they really believed. Yes, they wanted to make money and all this stuff they wanted power, but I think they,
to this, but I think there are ways they could haven't should have adjusted over the course speed before he went over to answer Graham and he was being vocal in sounding alarms in all these different things, and yet he just yet we didn't think of everything. Also, we learn things like real time as as the media's learning at pointed it out, but quite often we're learning it at the same time so they're more like I would say, like the people who does cities and buildings and cars who thought they were building this beautiful
le Caboosa a robber Moses. When these people were you have this beautiful thing being built. That also has these massive consequences, and then it's it's a question to me of how much can you think and self reflect and be I'm sure when he closed his eyes and thinks of himself to think Facebook, his inner meshed into that your hardest to write: beautiful senses, the capture, the perfect babies in Myanmar Charger side like downstream. Certainly I as an Ex hard to wrap your head around here. It would take me I'm yeah, but there is
but so ready is like this massively important american pragmatists philosopher who can afford to pin down simply, but what am I of his books is called contingency, irony and solidarity. the story isn't written, yet everything is contingent. Everything could have happened, one way or another, with like essentially this thing that works itself out right, whether it Marxism Nino. There will be this natural class struggle or whether to enlighten me in the rationality of humans will naturally, leader he's against all that
when you are someone who, just at nineteen, drops out of college and starts a thing that ends up being the biggest information tool ever known in human history: you're, not a flop. Four you're, not a historian. Your building, something cool am, I think you imbibe. we live in a time where you know the more globally we get knitted together. The fewer wars will have, the more prosperity will have an obvious things. You don't articulate them, but they're, just like that: the water your swimming in the outlying, so that when basically no part of your brain going hold on,
Action were heading in society: governmental, you, whatever you want to call it globally, a bigger part of my brain goes, this never stopping it's, never slowing down, it's never ceasing to evolve. There is, destination, it has a momentum that is I'm irrelevant in the equation. So even if I don't is the forward part that I question our guy, so I think one thing that I had to work hard to us or to clarify that it doesn't mean that there are these two choices that are optimism, pessimism or so
yeah, I think the way out is not what we make it so, rather than less there all the phones off a bridge or rather than let's sit back and let the phones do whatever they do. Cause it'll, probably be good issues. We right. So in what way by irony, any this very technical definition of irony, meaning like the ability to reflect on the possibility that your deepest held convictions might be wrong here and now, very airy, abstract stuff that was sort of swimming around in my brain. Because of how I like to work- not want to say, ok, make an argument about this stuff. Let me make up
let read about why I think social media is good or bad or write. What I like to do is take these ideas and confusions and sort of like things that I'm not sure how to feel about in go out into the world. Then try to make weave together, people and narrow a people that are in camps there's a lot of fighting the place I come from is like this at least aspect of it seems to be the worst of our nature or that there is an empty to it. That allows us to act in ways. We actually don't act like what place
starting from where you ve, starting from frustration with the way that Seychelles for media and the internet working yet frustration and kind of anxiety of like, whereas it how bad will again at year end some of it was served observe twitter and and read it and all these things and anonymity. We should get back to you, because Facebook is not an automobile. Facebook is full of problems, though, is not any one of these factors. Anonymity is one factor, but there's lots of other factors to cause. I spent a lot of time but in many ways there more proactive about cleaning up their masters. Ok has read: it is a super fascinating part of this, but it's the one.
the disagreement immediately unravels into I hope you get raped or generally right. There is always some kind or just a right of physical, subordinate or woman, everybody s or everybody jump in here and download her as quickly as possible, and this is part of The answer to how I was able to do so work was just like they don't go after men. In the same way, I met some real unsavory people and they didn't like me, get those journalists didn't like me cause. I was jewish in some cases. I'm kind of ok right sucks, but it's real. My oppression of some of these things. It's it's very stripped down the design
really Netflix or in India. Does it have the impact downstream? That say twitter does, because in my observation, maybe you can correct me, you know more about it than I do. I have theory that the eve for this and right. Five percent of the spectrum are have the loudest voices and they are common during a disproportionate percentage of the new cycle. By having these loud clickable, opinions and takes on everything yeah and some of it is left and right, but some of it is just attitude temper. Some of its not like. I want a third, nine percent tax rate and you forty one black, like fuck, you, want higher taxes are fuck you I want lower taxes, yeah, it's not really a left or right thing. It's more just alike who can get even Alexis started together in their dorm room in Charlottesville. They went to deviate here. Then they went off
when their twenties, they made a few million dollars. They sold the company. They went off, they ought I retorted Erlich they saw but has read it stood, track upwards towards policy and new cycles and all that idiot it everything is on ready. First, there's more than a million raising staff right like there's, some like whore fish stocks are happening, bow tie, ok, really bad only read, it is one of the reasons I spend so much time at read. It specifically is because it is in many ways one of them the worst stuff the best stuff creativity? The partnership? I mean you know I was focusing on the anti social side of it, but there is a huge amount of pro side of and not only on read it, but every people are finding their mob. Their vining, their tribes are going to events there, all that forming the life based on all the piazza. By the way, all the things said far forming
mob going to have a mob was the wrong where no, but that it is exactly like the mirror. It is just both. At the same time, it is the proposal in the antisocial exactly the same right and one cannot exist without the other media. So the reason part had been under explored NEA everything was pro social. Everything was Tahrir Square and there's there's can be these revolutions and the other or briar spring. I was just like there's. No one really digging, not no one. There were people, but it just beat the collective narrative. looked at in twenty four, was this guy in Chicago who was building a click bait website. That was not political at all. Ok, it was cats, writing skateboards and he
feel good stuff feel gets wasting times. So I met him at a dinner where I was at a tech. France and I was there to do something else, but he was randomly seated next to me and he started time what he did and I was like it's not intrinsically harmful what you're doing, but you are wasting PETE way more clicks. If you just do like listed calls me- and I was like four Charger law that that would be defendable go that will be good for the worldwide. Yes, it's good for your business, but you conflated, and this became an obsession with me. People who conflate what's good for them and what's
I hate your magazine sparked yeah love to be a sort of recovery profile, and I also is aware that, like I have my biases and I'm writing about a new media thing in an old media thing, I don't want to be just like caddy about it, so I tried to really understand what he was coming from and he was a smart guy and a nice guy, but then our vote Our motto is: if it gets clicks, it's good. and I would say, deeming good the money in your pocket or goods ethically are clear, Eddie wise and he was like. I don't understand the difference right.
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You can sell one with the den in it that no one saw that was an extra two hundred dollars and we could met you know so. My dad was fucking take what you can get and run like hell, and so I can relate very often Monaco, and I will give these conversations and I'm like I hate to say it. But I have that obsession and the covering of money and at all costs in what's fair. Could someone went to that school? That's for a fact that the whole systems that fair I'm gonna get mine. So I don't love fuckin video game and get some points totally enzyme right right right. I want to condemn this individual as a bad apple. I think the thing that's important is: what are the systems that are driving people today?
the way they are its. Also that I just want to point out it's in it's something I find myself in, as it is a luxury to be finding purpose, I'm so becomes like what's on fire guess we ask that as the masses pyramid that yeah and you know, then the question is: do you get addicted? To that? I mean this kid. When I met him is twenty seven year old millionaire at what point do you actually rise up to the level of the mass was pyramid where you're actually turnip transcend that? Yet ass? Yet again, it's not about more condemnation in the sense that I dont think this guy's a bad guy. I do think it's important, though, that to flesh out our actual profound disagreements of prey the poor, especially as we get more into the people who are actively like tearing apart the fabric of our democracy when they ended up writing about more in and again I'm polygon opponents, some things that sound like I'm a sympathiser, but that's not the case, it's more just for like a sense
Emotionally, maybe, what's going on what people, which I am sure you are equally interested it totally. This is part of what we are talking about angel in demon of cancellation on your shoulder. There were two I am worried that I'm gonna get mistaken for excusing it free of charge. Has I spent I mean in the book. I go deep into the life history of people that are doing bad things in the world just objectively You have to understand it. If you want to be able to create systems that will correct our at her yeah, so I started with this click bait entrepreneur guy in Chicago, then
That's? What this guy's gonna do and he's gonna win, and I am sad to say, I made a lot of bad that I won right. I also was like ok this my thing that I've been sort of turn a puzzle through and not knowing exactly what the story is. This became the story of american politics. so then I was like ok now I need to broaden its scope is not just about how this kid is making money on Facebook. It's about how the same things that allow him to be twenty seven. Zero million on Facebook are the things that are going to destroy everything we hold dear. I want to know how you go from like observing them online. Do then meaning that also okay, so it was summer of twenty. Sixteen, so my mother, like ok, tell that story in a way that is
you're doing it. There is no way that there is more of the Russians doing it. I'm doing here, for people who are sitting in a building being paid to do this. are having more of an effect on the election than America, we're doing this more drive around the dry. Allow yeah, there's just like yes boss, so. You're gonna find the people who are doing that's right and I was trying to stay within gray territory at first. I didn't go straight for just the outright nazi stuff. I felt like I was a little too salacious. You want to be able to again not excuse a very hard to find your way into understanding? Why just an outright anti semite, just out now cross burning person? I did end up getting there in the book
are to lose for reasons that are not just pure blind hatred but like has reasons and is really effective at reverse engineering and hacking the attention all marketplace to make that a reality by find someone who's just sitting at home in their living room, doing it freelance and Super billionaire Rupert Murdoch type person by like just buying up the press apparatus, but the fact that you could just do it from your laptop is new
DE readers to eat Doritos by giving them the US. The idea is not actually that deepen complex. You just have to it's a it's a trick. You have to get good at yeah. You know you put. a thing is is finding the one perfect person, who's, gonna, encapsulate a larger right set of was right about Scientology his first piece, that was our global ruined my life. So if you remember that articles all these articles. This is like super dumb, like magazine, nerd thing that they all have a little thing above the title. That's called a rubric and it's called either profiles or a reporter at large or whatever that one was technically a profile of Paul Haggis, ok
about all how right rear the life in times of all right. But you have hospital haggis, was the Queen Cor donkey and that story he was carrying the load of the right to have to go in through someone so the tape, maybe we shouldn't even like, give him more attention welcoming, so that the guy I used. I called him up and said I am interested in how people are using social media, so he was living out loud yeah I'll get people who been at this for a long time. There is generally and where they go, this is gonna, be who I am now this particular guy. He was alive, he went to law school, he had a wife and kid and a dog and they like to go hiking in he was on the right path, yet
Sky was about forty. This was his was I going to show me how you do what you do living by himself and you know like he's standing because he, u get kicked out of being away nationalist. If your wife is of iranian descent- and I actually later found it- his first wife had worked at Facebook and in the divorce he got half of. Facebook stock, which is now in the minds of all my god. How some of this stuff is like, if it was a novel they'd, be like come on the community on the new on the nose of a me? Wait till we get to the guy who's like the top Nazi propagandist in the country. Who was
before like didn't they yeah you're from New York Overstep. Sometimes I would literally meet someone at a party like the deplorable one of the big parties, owing to his called the deplorable is their big inauguration party and less acute planned is no longer enough and re Monica deplore of all this is this is that I spent about three and a half years going in my head, but I am I there were just when you know a man just just me. assumptions and they're probably close enough church where they were thin slice me yeah yeah like it's not that far Can you just tell me what you wanna tell me, then? Usually it would work and so are sometimes they would be like. Take my notebook and tear it up and like fucking we're like fifty fifty yeah. So when I get
Ok, I have a laptop. I have an Ipad and I live stream on my Ipad and like that, I have a phone call, people text me stuff and that's how The reverse engineer the new cycle. Unlike damage Is only a watch, though I mean I was with him for one of the things that people really respond to viscerally an emotionally is someone being sick or disgusting or like especially a woman. If I can make people think that she's dead
of her, where she's blinking in a weird way, and I'm gonna, to say that that's her having a mini seizure, aha or she didn't, a million people, could be a thousand people or five hundred people if their passionate enough in hard core enough? is an words on the right kind of combination in and in its spikes quickly enough. That will become a trending hashtag unto her. so he would sit in this video conference conferencing. Okay today, it's gonna be Hilary bags because he's got back, she's got bags under her eyes, she's got bags, catheter back she's got back, so it's
twitter- they all do it. None of this is against the rules by the Rhine. Twitter doesn't have a rule that maybe they should right, but they don't have a rule against you and your buddies hijacking. The news right they'll get it trends, then, when something is trending on Twitter, that is a signal to every journalist in the world, which is the poor audience of twitter, one out in the public consciousness. Our reserves reporting on exactly which is misleading and a lot of ways right, because you boast. on twitter are not talking about Hilary catheter banks heard ever rights, just an engineered outrage, but because you ve now seen it in the little box and by the way, there's no twitter never said that the little box of turning hashtags are the things that objectively, the most people are talking about. the proprietary algorithm that they ve never shared how they come up with it. So it's just a volume is not binding on it. So it's it's a bunch of factors, its speed. It
concentration to supposed to measure by reality will answer them you know these are all proprietary companies that don't share how they do it, but it just so happens that if you just do your homework and learn how to reverse engineer it, you can have Effects and then he would just sit me down, explain. Okay, so Watchmen Watch was gonna. Happen is gonna trend. I bet you, that if crystallized picks it up it CNN and then he you know retreats of them brains, daughters, gonna notice. It then he's gonna, be considered talking about it. I know it can end up on the drugs report and Russia's. this guy's, some kind of a profit or genius. Just headline, that's like some people are talking about. Maybe Hilary might be sick and like that, because of this guy right mind
like an oceans, eleven element of yeah? I've gone like you, dont want them to rob the thing, but your kind alike were held in a poem. Was technology is increased. I have only felt increasingly less support of everything more that the system is so big into think someone as with the other direction. With this in mind, oh no, I can have a huge impact, so here the clear objective of making sure he'll reading an elected right? it also becoming a big. Player in some kind of game, adrenaline Russia directive. You make me from a light, he became a brand. He became a media breath what all the people in my book haven't go to the Nazis, what they're all actually surging they're, not like great political fingers, their great messengers, We do you watch any of those documentaries I much both of em an effect
oh right, they they produce the want, which is even like. I watched the one I think as the Netflix, when a camera with one- and I young any help that it just the point is there's no like floor. Where you go ok, this is where the human fingerprints are on it anymore. It's all the way down I can imagine that in homeless, Anderson going ok,
the story wanting to take one step further, I'm pissed because I'm losing the power and that equation, because I dont get to sit in the new Yorker and go no. No! No you here is what you should think yeah, I any story, that's worth consuming should be fact check now I am of that opinion, but I can definitely see where people go like the fact that I trust this guy more than your fact, checkers a total and book in the maybe people think I should have gone to more length to do this to it to be clear, the good old days of game Go back to that end is not desirable to go back to them, so it can't be well. Let's just put this genie back in the box, so Oh, it's not an argument driven book in the sense that I'm not like every chapter ends with my checklist of things. We should do right. It's a story in the way
the complicated and there's no clean solution. We have to work our way I am of the opinion, because you, I don't think you legislator yourself out of this situation. Let all legislation can help, but it's not gonna. I dont you I'd in lesser dismantling, the first amendment. I just don't see a legislative answer to this, so I guess what I would be hoping in the best site of myself would would want You too have figured out some underline part of To this end a sense, maybe I'm wrong, but I once more a great sixty minutes segment on the sovereign citizens in these people by my definition are in saying you know that they don't, they won't carry a licence, they ve killed all these law enforcement agents, and in the last few years and had a good pain, blue collar job and they
where's that and so what was unavoidable was that that was a part of all of their stories in you can't really ignore that. So it's like when you're trying to talk about how to legislatively affect the sovereign citizens I don't want. You can have a lot of success in there, but if we can address the scenario by which these things are born. Out of, I just feel like that's a lot better approach for us and you know it yet it's the answer. Prevention approach. Yes, there, a lot of sort of commonalities and patterns that I encountered and I do try to be clear- that is not a ones action equals eighty nine percent chance of Nazi like yeah, there's definite economy. handed to them, sometimes there's just personal. Sometimes there is such an addiction to hyper control mechanism, yeah that its
does a hoax whatever they did. These are all red pills ia and I sort said, like there's a kind of personality where you're so addicted, to read pills that you'll just swallow, meeting with a pinkish Hugh without being like it is incumbent on us to understand the argument and go ok! Well, this you know will again. I just want to point out
taken away from them near. They won't grow up to be assholes, but like so that's nice play against each other, so some of it. Is this feeling of don't tell me what to say. I feel him and I can say whatever I want some of it is, I often found people would have a kind of common. a very high I q and a very low eat you mean. I saw this with one of the sections of my book is actually I embedded at the White House Briefing Room because some of these just absolute Roll performance, artists, type people were in this new timeline wherein getting Whitehouse press credentials. back to you. I was at that observe all I was sitting at the deplorable MIKE and I need this sort of like because no Milo, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah miles the fabulous British. I think no more had among the aliens on new idea. I've spent a lot
I'm a mile or two Milo used to make fun of me. Komio soy boy, forgetting soil, can my coffee, ok and then he would drink hot coffee through a straw, Sweden, Spain has charter, had guy you're making me in that area, but Milo is a kind of species there's like other people who do that thing, like I'm fabulous, I'm unconcerned like that, the trolling that they do is due to be so fabulous. there's a million things to say, but by the way so? Yes, we have to recognise everyone's own role in it, but that is what their training on its the same way, that it is frustrating that people to understand the actual mission of terrorism, which is-
we would point out respond than in the way that we do is. We would know oh we're doing exactly as they would want us, which is very much exactly the intention of trawling yeah. The intention of trolling is to say one little thing. Just like us, add you're mad and then suddenly you're the centre of attention, and you just get to back off. I mean imagine if you had no experience in leadership or politics or anything except corruption, and you could just say I think this Bisbee I wasn't born in MECCA any shouldn't be present and you got to control mainstream media for as long as you wanted, just by saying that and not having the basic human decency to not say that we get the idea, and then maybe imagine if you could do that enough- that you could literally become president because of it. That would be a great trick you could play sharks, and it turns out. We live in that timelines and there is this concept of fitness that you know Darwinian this means just the fittest will survive. There's also a kind of
and one of the things that I sort of sort of playing with his or a meme like a feminist are worse than cancer. Whenever the worst thing you can think of is Somali fit It is maximally engineered to be a viral meme and it is zero percent fit in the old It would print in article saying gee. I wonder if this president was born in America true right, but it is perfect cabinet for people to go. How dare you How dare you, sir, and you can not do that think look again we're getting dangerously political for the show, but I will say: you're
in a bed we made g there's no getting around that there is an if no one ever would have responded to any of the outrageous should he said there wouldn't be one like we are as responsible as anyone that voted for him. If you perpetuating and endlessly talking about and giving attention to and getting them in the new cycle work. or were playing along with ice, What I say, I'm glad they're two of you here, because you're just figured out the two. I literally do think you're both right, because what I say in the book is trolls. respond to them is to give them fuel to not respond to them. I'm not gonna waste, my time think they'll earth is flat good good on the and would never ways one second of my time. But what? If you're already and influential person like curving, whose in front of
tv cameras and then you're, saying there earth is flat what, if you're being Viewed on tv, I say yeah. I was really glad that we want this game. I really play a defence also, Europe is flat and Bob Layer at some point, somebody's gotta go away. Don't tell people that that's wrong. Well, I kind of disagree because, on its surface, ninety nine percent of people going to hear that NGO only topic- I things is this. Now I come out amplified. That message hugely then now something emotional starts happen to someone else who feels like an underdog I've created an ally for somebody who might not even be a flat earth are, but the emotional component is so compelling and so relate above it now there.
Let's get one hundred percent on represent. There is no way out. I will take that ones too. further when I go into the world of one of these people, who I think is bad or wrong, and I read an article in the New Yorker pointing out how their bad or wrong I run the risk of them more exposure and more fans who are going with this egghead elite is whatever the Han just went to go. Prove that you're wrong, but like fuck, that guy Young and also can always add something at another critical eye, but by cherish your role in our society and the fourth estate in all that. But you put your few moments. Where you know somebody would tell me my whole worldview is based on fuck you,
smug elite. Mother fucker, you don't get to tell me what to think and then I would go right now quote in the new Yorker, and they would have to put a little action over elite
The only one stage in the arm chair you dare, we are supported by better help. Sometimes life is stressful and hard. Currently, that seems to be the case. We could all use help but may not know how or where it asked for revealing stress or depressed or want professional help with anxiety, insomnia or any issue affecting your well being better. Help is available better help on line counselling offers. Licence professional therapists who specialise in many different areas, including anxiety, depression is will stress, complicated relationships, family conflicts, difficulty sleeping grief, stress, trauma, anger. What I love about this Monica is particularly now when you can't really go out, see any one. This is a great way to check in with somebody exact can be objective about what's going on here and now is the time to get ahead of any cause. It's Althea unaware, stressful right now, plus better up, could not be more convenient, simply fill out a questionnaire to help assess your needs and get matched with accounts or you'll love in less than twenty four hours easily schedule secure video or phone sessions with their pets plus securely exchange, unlimited messages. If, for any reason, you're unhappy with counselor, you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge, get professional help when you want it wherever you are, that our help is a truly affordable option. An arm chair is get ten percent off their first month with the discount Kodak. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slashed acts, that's better help dot com slashed acts. We are supported by Sea MIDI M D with everything shutting down around the nation, it's starting to feel like we're living in the second act of a sea level, syphon movie, so, instead of being one of those expendable characters that goes against the group and puts everyone endanger stay inside and stock up on plenteous c b d to keep you calm through it all. I need some more see. Beady, p, p! M. Ok, ok, that's my less! Is I'm running out and make me nervous now whether you are planning to take a bath and catch up on all those episodes of armchair expert that you missed, or you just want to sleep. The weeks away, our friends at C B, the M d: have you covered ever wide range of superior, see beady products ranging from bath bombs to sleep aids and even products for your stir, crazy pets? So, no matter who your isolated with sea beady empty has something to help you stay sane and to make it even easier to fit c b d m D, India or survival budget there offering arm cherries twenty five percent off when you use the code Dax at check out at sea, VD, M D, dotcom once again that c, b: D, M d, dot com, promo code, Dax for twenty five percent off your purchase of superior, see beady oil products from sea beady empty and the other thing is
profound. You have to begin with so there's a difference between some random unknown again the got smaller
if our Baldwin engages with that guy, now he's not a knot in front of seven eleven he's like out Balkans. Taken, I'm serious, you know I'm not in front of seven live here. Anyone says the earth is flat. Is a fucking not in your perspective, but he has a lot of fans and people who believe what he says, whether they should or shouldn't they do. I don't know if I buy that I think they stand with him, but I dont know. If convert your opinion, I don't know if we can, in the current year make the argument people with insane just objectively wrong opinions. yeah. We can't run that review all it's not even a risk. The present does then climate change is happening. He has its like that. That's the most dangerous fact about the world. We live in Raina, so it can't be like what everybody knows. Climate changes will because of the very identity formation tangle were in because as people go, I don't want the egg heads telling me what to do with my car and my air conditioned whatever were in the tangle right,
I agree with you that the steps we took to get into it were part of this vast complex two in our own ways and were blinded to and partly because of the text. something I think about all the time with. I don't even know whether to name the people in
I think seen them proves Of works well, section of the book about who have price spent more time. never want anyone to know her name. She did was not in it for the thing she wanted to be part of something I, who am I I'm the way people respond to me. and she she grew up
and races and whatever she also knew that her grandmother grew up in the thirties in Germany, but didn't really tough. But I very much. like the rightly and he'd be like what we'll talk about it This is over like months and months and months and shoes kept getting more and more these clues and then one day he said something about the day of the rope and she was like Is it just a job like splaining what it was answered, the It is from the book that ok, so I am, I am a fascist and if we white people
stick up for ourselves: we're gonna get wiped out and they're gonna. your intelligence. They are kind of the puppet masters of this entire, you know and then, and then he basically
oh wow. Eventually, they called her the first lady of the all right and she actually a big fan of Dan Savage used to drive to work, listening to dance, savage and then she actually because this is- I mean the way the things and these are just ran. These are things that you would get to unless you got, I started going- why am I
Now again, this is one of these things. That is deeply deeply wrong now, but from her specific prospect. Where she had never been a knock. it against certain ideas in the proper way and she'd never read the kind of books that whatever like whatever she was coming, whatever she needed emotionally or personally, it hit her because she was when love this guy and all the stuff it hit her in like you know what we're gonna do. We're gonna go down to Charlottesville Virginia was in torches, but would you we just want to stick up for ourselves because we have a right to exist and- and
who understand, she was so confused and turned around that she would go. I know but an quick what if it was ten thousand right, but what? If kill rights further. I guess I don't see, the number has been as material they. They It matters because the Jews have been using this you'll notice that I am come because I'm jewish, I can ventriloquist that voice and kneeling. I'm ok, but, like their theory, is that Jews have used this victim narrative to get whatever
what a rise, what has to be that big inflated number for them to get right in all this bubble? Blood sympathies Emily. Yet if you talk to this woman, she after all, the time she's, the only one of all the people that I spent all the time with my book, who I thank my acknowledgements, we greens, the only one who I feel like I can have a relationship with right because she got out the other people need to be present for her to sink in. There are all these other factors that needed for her to come out there and she had this complicated set of feelings about that she,
rally and she was like I want to make. The spreadsheet has no one else is doing at the guys are too busy working at deem. It demand Joey Alpha and doing nothing, yes, exactly and ranting on their nazi podcast, one actually one of the ways she found me because I wrote a piece about the kind of mean podcast of that movement, which is called the Daily Shoah, which is a very hilarious pon, because again. This is sort of dangerous territory, but like sometimes these guys are Wendy. Some I mean the daily Shoah. They had one show called nationalist public radio they had. One called The nation they like now they're, not Eddie right right. They they had like one episode,
like money writing about another of these guys who this was the show she was listening to as she was getting indoctrinated and their end its not yelling. It's not hate this person, he that person, it's being part of a group having in jokes ever having all these acronyms. Now these and others, it's they courtship hosting What you do online on for China, unrighted whatever's, whatever you ship, puts you just whatever ship pops into your head. It's like a group chat, that's what they would act out and they would be like you guys and, as you know, Picasso I feel like these are my these are my dude. I'm there I'm part of their joke. You know the first he's right, that's what they pattern it after it's. So it's designed to inculcate you in indoctrinate you that guy, who made that show he's the guy with the black brother in the jewish. What
to this jewish woman, but they're kind of like reckless, as they normally go out that much he spends like or getting block, probably getting blocked coming back with a new name. He and his buddies would all brigade into these rooms together and go we're gonna. It's like liberals here,
many many layers of this and it's all a conspiracy theory. So one give it too much you didn't, but it's all mapped out is the point. It's not blind. Hatred needs very, very over thought. Hatred LA all the conditions are in the right place for you to get laid down that path. I can tell from talking to enough these people. It is genuinely thrilling. It is a genuine person and I'm going to be all my life around defending that they have the opposite explained
this woman. She is now ever work her way. Out of that, his way to rehabilitation. I hoped they would have nothing but kind.
without a hand, or you know, and in a way the fact that I I wasn't intending to go to the
my game, and I was like the amendments Yoda german beer, Hollis, and that by the way he lived in the Upper EAST side of Manhattan, all really whom it is never what you think just never it's never think and part of it is. I mean some of them, they're, not all whatever.
engaging is to actually like go through the process because the bottom line is these. People are bad. The internet should probably
thing that I dont like is when we seem to suggest that what follows from that is because free speech, all devalue, free speech to be absolutely sacrosanct, but I'll do that or you yeah, if you, if you have carbon emissions, that that's not a problem, so sometimes we blind ourselves because we go none of free speech. That's the end of the convention.
protects Pavarotti, eggs right, so mine was like. Yes, you are and it may be that I want to participate in the same way that if you have an economy, that's built on getting clicks by sniping children's photos yeah, that's a bad economy to build in the same way that, if you have deconstructed, all
What are you in a sense that you know the kind
I hope, to think that we will be correcting like we did with our food. Some gas- and you know there is also an element of like how capitalism works where you you have to reckon with the idea that, once you are a craft anymore, genocides or such like. He has also responsibilities and ye sounds very serious. Squishy in you know whatever, but it's like. Yes, you do,
just gonna write. It doesn't work, there's a dual kind of bottom line: yes and the reason that I am motivated to do.
added this measure the way she says it like be able like we wanted to call back we way. This is worth
because you want to be taken care of. stirred eyes for desiring think that's that those words are in the song, but I dont think none of these words are important. That sort. I think it's just that you like to be nurtured, yellow railroad
and I would like mad to call me baby boy. Wonder but ok, ironically girl little girl sounds a little baby low per WWII Salisbury and like a power play like I'm above the power move, yeah exactly so. I wouldn't like that baby woman, I arrived baby bog. Were they core. You think I would like that you're no baby bug big
is confusing for everyone. If your chain
baby at another word linking it to animal kangaroo? I think Matt could probably say any of these seem to me and I'd be happy. I been feel good baby squirreled squirrel. The Earl
night, that's so sweet and there really is an even worth trying to figure out whether you will be the winner me prove into her. That's not how tags effect, but I'm tempted I'm really timetable, because, although like that from her, she says like all this happened on the crews that she took my niece gone. They looked
I believe the twitter claim the Amazon I dont believe them. Ok, yes, so on Wikipedia list of most popular websites, Amazon is above read. It ok, yeah. I also shocked by
Anthony is a very, very popular radio, chauffeur deputy. I didn't know that I mostly know about these people here, listening to Howard hours, of course, aware of all his peers, Savishna Titian and internal toggle. So as all my opinions of all these people are pretty skewed by here, but I have done the opium and Anthony show how you ve been on at the Essen New York, who had never heard of it. Ok, is it anti social or anti social according to the general pronunciation, on line when