Chris Voss is an American businessman, author, and professor. Voss is a former FBI hostage negotiator, the CEO of The Black Swan Group Ltd, and co-author of the book, Never Split the Difference. Chris sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss his time as a hostage negotiator, what drove him to law enforcement and the benefits of de-escalation. Dax wonders about the evolution of terrorism and Chris talks us through the hostage negotiation of Jill Carroll. He talks about the power of saying no, the concept of bending reality and the ways in which we can win negotiations in our daily lives.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome, welcomed, arm, chair expert on deck shepherdess joined by Emmy nominated Monica plaid below boy. Today we talk to a very first in person, I dont think I would have ever cross pass with someone like this in real life, he was able to take people hostage, which I don't plan on doing everything. That's true. There could be a worthy cause of abduction. He is a former FBI hostage negotiator. I wanna see the lead former FBI its negotiating and the ceo of the blacks one group and Co. Other of the book, never split! The difference negotiate as if your life depended on it, He also has a master class. Chris vast teaches the art of negotiation, which is phenomenal. Also we'd, like to call your ear drums, picky taking you know, Bob Merv ACT, the genius, the resident genius musician, Bob Mirvan, who does the theme song to this pod cast as well as a lot of our lives, showed ass. He really especial. He strikes again only-
I think I like it more than our song lad what a song, while you are giving us little tickle You know they don't like. It took all my willpower noticing along about congrats was hard. Well, I want you want to hear that thing ten times in a row which I know I when he sent it. I think I was twenty times wrote but of course, February Fourteenth a day for lovers Valentine's day in the review, Monica and just love boys. So please, now
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I was rich kid. Eighty six to two thousand you're there. What were before that, like where wars home, I grew up in our ok small time now so you you had a long career with the FBI. You're a hostage negotiator, you ve written a book called, never split the difference you are for. I sometimes at Georgetown. Also you see that's what made me think you must have the right to do that. Their last class, I told you assume Pro, but after book came out, which was twenty sixteen twenty sixteen so before we get into that very exciting, a whole life, we certainly have an ever talk to a hostage negotiator. Not nor do, I suspect, will talked him anymore. I don't think so. Very unique guess for us to have Sir Unicorn bet a bit of a unicorn, but what route? Do you leave Iowa? Do you decide what you're gonna do cause? I am here
went to Harvard near the masters from Harvard Gray, but was that post your post beer, ok Post Bureau, so what happens? Pre bureau, I would stay university for an undergrad, aha, can seems or police Department Casey EM, all the parlor world? I led them if you gonna go to nearby Sid, it's scar. Sailors came to city, ok and everybody in my part of the world was Raven about, the city, so I went there. Ah, how did it live up to here? the primary task. It is a great town right, your guitar, Confusing down the Missouri anchored Ok, it's both states border say bore contrary to its manufacturing. Districts I had was on the border this street was really state line road. I was bar right on the corner and because it was stay line, pretty good chance. Anybody Henry be drinking there on give a night was gonna, be wanted they, so they could just cause
St Vincent States remaining after you, they were iron out that jurisdiction like what say Sommersby entailed in Missouri, and then they drove in Kansas. What happens then well? Theoretically, If you have found rules, if you cross the state land got, I'm starved then you'd have to hand him off to the locals. On the other side, dns both drag people cross state line as for tee justice was trying to do in smoking. Ban that, if you recall anxiety, was away out of his jurisdiction waste chasing the ban that my dad came. The Kansas City from all the remainder he arrived in Kansas City, do you remember stopping at any point. A really nice man named shook Indian, my understanding of must enable short, but it might have oh well. No, I wouldn't have been his. Is a joke, a popular name in India. Is it like MIKE it's a popular.
As she also, moreover, to like more Christopher, yeah yeah yeah to postpone your share working in the police department. And then how do you end up going to New York? Whilst I quit the p d, it's almost like the buddhas line, acquitted police department. I myself a steady, but a journey of FBI. My father encourage media, look at federal law enforcement because, right after you pay for college degree or when I gotta go. Then require one right. Yes, yes, do you study criminal justice in college? I thirty business argonauts occurred to me. There are I changed my mind before get out of school. I wanted to have a son to fall back on What drew you to law enforcement to begin with gonna sounds stupid now. Nothing sound so I saw a movie about two New York City caps. When I was sixteen years old based on two guys are really they just called the super cops okay,
and these guys who really innovative and creative independent course into anything, the anything about him to do to do right, but our baggage, any fury loved it so easy. You had a very specific take and what you wanted to do as a police officer Can I mean I wanted to be creative. A high I didn't realize it at the time, but it is in my nature to disregard the things in my supervised Told me yeah. Now me too great great resistance to authority in general. I blame at all in a lot of step, dad's who showed up every couple years and had a new game plan plan. I was hold on a second here and why We do in this area you think. You're is rooted in yellow good question. My father was really in upon a guy and I probably come from his example. I didn't realize it at the time cuz. I grew up mostly working for him. That course it was a comp.
Past, but he never. He never told anybody had to get the job done. I just if he pointed your promise that figured out and go do it. What was his business? He was a middle men. Oil companies companies was was called a an oil jobber haha yeah, that was between the major corporation and gas station or whatever in user, was ok. It was in charge of shallow oil at the time. Our high group, that is a symbol of our family, the hour why grew up in a family that work for general motors? So it's interesting what space that you pies in your mind, when it is the source of all things. Yeah reminds you of your childhood year will like. We were bidden to watch Roger in me, the Michael more documentary, because it was very critical of general motors and was like a hold on now here. This is the hand, that's feedin everyone, let's just tread lightly on this interesting rife. Eileen became a liberal and Hollywood and allowed myself to watch it now like pretty dark, the document are: how big is this? The I'd look
It really did flourished here. Oh yeah, yeah suit Did you make your way into the F b? I did you just called call knock on the door there in a kind of ideally it a little bit lucky, because I was originally look at the secret service. My father had a body with a secret service agent, and I met this guy He said I travel all over the world with secret service which blow me because I had ever been anywhere. I think I'd seen Canada from a distance aha says I travel were how coolly and I didn't. I had no idea one federal law enforcement agency from another modem. I had no idea what the differences were right. So serves, wasn't hiring, but the bureau was a bureau just put on a really big hiring push and I went down they have we done ass. I wanna job feel that the application and relatively quickly get it.
There's a physical component right as we have to really good friends back in Michigan. One is an agent one is about to become an agent and there's a pretty with the bureau yeah yeah, then yes, so the fee. Miles. The one is about to become an agent and the physical training. She had to do kind of shocked me in a good way. You know, there's in a pretty interesting one, I've top and above all, a bit over the years too, because when I will true and probably tell about mid nineties, if you need to being reasonable shape when you got there, but they can If you need to being reasonable shape when you got there, but they could whip you into shape problem is its heart. Your fire, somebody for being out of shape than it is never let him in first place right right rhymes makes a certain amount of sense, so they they change rules after I went through words that you have you got a pass. The minimum before you get. There were, I withdrew. They were relied upon you to raise yourself up which most of his dead but yeah, yet you gotta be pretty pretty decent physical can
and what kind of training they do. They know where they're going to feed your what track they're gonna put you on, or they are deserving of valuation period where they got this. This guy might be good at this are the evaluating what kind of natural abilities you might have, not really they lose completely generalist. Why came out now? I've heard that since they try to point the direction of the National Security organised crime, but What really matters is when you get out this latter cool things you, the man, the great thing about the bureau is, since we investigate every week though we re every kind of crime, somebody breaking along what you think is cool like it doesn't matter what you think is cool, but when you can be in the art you could be into interstate trafficking. I should have they could be understood. Shopping in great danger is sure, somebody's breaking the law so you eat you get out there. You started a sampling what's around, maybe if you run across some middle guys gauss.
Do you think you're cool whether there are having a good time and as you fall in with them, and then you can have a lot of fun, you can do some cool course. That is an interesting distinction between that in your local police too, our bank as anything anyone's interest is going into strangers homes to deal with the domestic disputes. I doubt that's what anyone's kink is Ghana but been cops a great job? I mean I hadda at a ball I did that you know it was worthy. It felt like you were doing something that was worthwhile and sometimes I was so you know you don't imagine. Going in to house on domestic dispute is a pursuit, but you find yourself in there also, you know helping people settle at their lives, alot rights, and so at least for an hour. You made a difference in somebody's life. Maybe so it can be very satisfied, that's a good point. Did you see the movie and watch really good?
movie Al Qaeda jig John Hall, on legal and Michael Paine to preserve their run from the drug cartels summary anyways. They did a great job of what I assumed to be a great job of wind, unlike ride along so don't really know, but just. The lottery that is opening a door, especially in downtown allay who knows was on the other side and they did a great job of just how chaotic that is when that door opens. There could be any number of things happening inside there, that was the element that I was like. Oh yeah, that's a specific type of person gets up for that, and you rush allergy apple times. You do if you wouldn t like it, he don't spend them it could be. Any legal walk in people can have a nice time who knows guns could already be drawn. There could be a raging for person, fight happening value can be a fire in the kitchen. You know there's a day
with violent destiny on the other side of the door. Is their mental training for like desensitization, for those kinds of things are not really marrow no use, I swear God I hesitated and bring an ox. I forgot the name of others, a fantastic documentary currently on Netflix I'd just watch about these two officers in Texas who, if kind it took it, cells themselves to really specialise in de escalation, and they end up in a lot of negotiating situations in its. A paradigm shift for that the police department to really start looking at good tools to de escalate here, because when you first get in there, so you don't waste time. They taught solve the problem. A move on now I kind of percentage of the time, probably seventy five percent of the time you come and start barking orders and get things come down at least long enough till you get out.
But you don't really know that it's not do any good long time so actually learn the escalation in common people down. If you're lucky enough to one across somebody's good at it, and now your astonished at the magic somebody could do so for a short period of time. A member of the guys from vice I started. Writing with a guy was a magician it being nice. How can people in a completely different way is early eighties, because, as this has crack epidemics, just starting to head are well, I went in Kansas City, ok is probably hidden were copper use. The drug wave comes across EU us, but he were some magic with what he said and I can only describe while I was cool, it's a very hard job. I dont think it He done perfectly it's too messy. We one side of the equation is already committed to not given, about the real, so is inherently messy endeavour, quite often, and I this was shocked with the kind of risk
vision by which they were really good at that and that they have had a lot of success in it and I d say was a very interesting, unique perspective. I got to gain on a few different night. And it was ion. What's guys are really good there really really good at it. Yes, and what do you a sexual cool cause? I'm I'm from the weather, you'd sounding also like stop and somebody in how you tree or two different things. Ok and good tops the really good cops that are good at their job we'll, never really escalate and out might Honan on somebody really fast. You gonna be shocked that their right, that it is a bad guy, but when a really good good, They don't raise, our voices they escalate the learn tone of voice. Then looking back Army Tom Voices MAGIC mean
I talked about it. A lie to me and what reason we're here is because it is a master cleanse which I watched a good deal of it. It's really fascinating. Eleven is awesome, and I learned from those guys and good cop investigators, interrogators and also great FBI agents that work with they were soft, spoken guys and then would work would actually work. Magic, like no cop that yelled at people would ever be good at getting in confessions, develop in a foreman tour. Community like one of the best investigators I ever ran across. If he had somebody want to interview, he bring him instead, it down next to his desk with the guy, a cup of coffee and it sit there and start doing his paperwork. And eventually you know the bad guy would say so. What am I looking at, but no pressure I don't? U dont you don't really getting were less pressure on people too bad idea, yeah
I'd like to hear that, because I can only come at it for my own personal point of view, which is, I won't the aggression with aggression, that's just my nature, while its actual human nature to ok right ever escaped with called mirror neurons it's. An involuntary reaction is using a learned and hostage negotiations why every hostage negotiator uses laid nine offended. Voice? I am actually had your mere neurons actual. Slowing your brain down. It's a chemical reactions right now, when we first invented hostage negotiation we didn't know was Chemical Ray We know work when you watch a comedy and a guy gets hit and ahead head with tree branch, and you immediately start laughing. That's mirror neurons. You can experience what the thing you just saw was in your head, your boss He tells you what that feels like that's why it produces a reaction right. Ok,
you get into the FBI in it out of Kansas City. Is that were then, and how do you end up in New York doing, and I want to get the title right. It's it's cool the New York City, joint task force, how'd, you end up in that job, two years in Pittsburgh to start off with back in those days in the FBI, Sorry I forwards and FBI the is a pretty big jump. And so they want to do two things back. Then it was a very smart move in a being expensive transfer, wisely cut it out, but remove you from home so that you, leave your old identity behind a drop in the city of never live before start over as an agent and aid There was a middle sized, small and middle sized operation. So you'd start out in my legs, so to speak, and then they draw. Did you do want a top offices, New York being on that less than at the time ninety percent of people going to New York? I do my two years and bit bird I get sent in Europe. They put me on the tasks.
Because I've been a cop and they figure, I already know pretty well and I should be able to get along with the cops and started out as a joint terrorism task force, one forgotten your again night, you started nineteen eighty six, so this is pre bombing of World Trade center. This is pre world trade center at that, time and eighty six. What was like in the realm of possibility? What were you guys? Even thinking, could happen or or working to prevent from happening, because the scale of it got so disproportionately huge in a very quick amount of time. As pretty creature Do you mean the terrorists taskforce Originally was almost all domestic terrorism, name and ethnicity, and they had a terrorist group laid seventy into the media is a pre wild time. Everybody's a lot of stuff corner all over the place. Mostly in New York City, not as much in Other cities, for example, Seventy Anti Castro Cubans and one period time pipe bomb
the mission in New York City once a month for six straight months: oh my gosh, but they were hit with pipe bombs and it was mostly New York, and you know it was isolated- contain to New York NEWS. So the task force put almost everyone's groups out of business. Just before I got there and it really settled down. Can I asked? Did you infiltrate them? Was that the most common Molly just great investigations, other bombings in robberies and in great follow on interrogations of people. You know these were the guys would get people voluntarily cooperate, might be a nice right I just been decent people. So then, most of that is pretty much run its course when I got there- and there was this weird of time when the domestic groups for winding down and we need to start a fine, the islamic groups who stand to come to our shores
in every revolutionary, grouped our people that their just criminals, there always true believers who believe in a cause. One title book from back then was crusaders criminals and crises. Every revolutionary group from the start of mankind who get true believers, criminals and people. The just misfits Makin Revolution, attracted notion there's a criminal stood, because what better place for criminal to hang out with them. People are against a government we have for sure were about the great so every group is got that so from about eighty, six or so TAT one of Troy. Gonna get hit a ninety three. There was some groups bad guys. It realised that they could hide, and mosques and so then the terrace came here, never looking for people, they were on the ground operational and some of these guys were looking to learn more about the religion as a cover so made it made for this great collaboration.
But were investigating them on our old rules and back then on terrorism rules. If you hadn't found evidence of a crime every six months you had to shut the case down. Ok, so constantly struggle to keep the cases open because of the protection of the first amendment, the religious protection and freedom of speech. So they handcuffed us significantly, which will find with ok these the ruthless investigated right so with in cases that were open closed for for a while and literally the FBI. Nypd terrorist taskforce was in the process of being shut down. A first trade center bombing occur. Ninety three, oh no kidding Alvis Workin terrorism had been transferred again. Crimes. That was a hard thing to Congress wonders through the air. So we took our terrorist cases in your qualifies gangs. Are we made him gang cases
all that so interesting and then a traits and blasted? And we had been looking at all? The groups are involved that for a number of years, but our cases were continually being shut down because, for example, a bunch, I'm gonna call with friends, but the guy that was driving a car to federal firearms licence. And under the second amendment in other right to keep him bear arms, he somebody's gonna, Emmi, literally trunk load, weapons and but the gate, a federal fires, licence who does get be rough to watch. This people walk away, yeah? But you know yet at you- you won't play by the rules right now we play by the rules, and so it just to survive. People, because a lot of you boring born then or listening, but in Three. There was a bomb in the parking garage of the World Trade Centre right, which was also Osama Bin Laden right. He was behind that people looked back at that and said that that was the birth of Al Qaeda right.
We can either coming out party so that a fair of our research. Clearly, the guy hit the tradesmen and ninety three is a nephew. An organised nine eleven. Yet what was his name to scale? Nine eleven is Kowalczyk Mohammed and ninety. Ninety three ram to use if aha Gimme terrorists for five hundred this tariff errors lose the nerve he's and when that happened, did you go, have a sense that this was the beginning. Or did you think of this, the crazy one. I've always see this once in our lifetime, every member watching the news- and I don't think anyone had the start of like
were under attack. This is didn't, have the opening volley of what's going to be some huge, which proved to be a long standing tack, but at that time, that didn't feel like that to me, as if you are, I don't care what it felt like an answer that it then to ask either Ramsay was on a run for a while. He was on run for ninety three. She was like this crazy one man, terrorism way he had stuff cooked up human how to blow up twelve airliners simultaneously over the Pacific. She went to the Philippines and they were planning that and actually did a test run and they had a small explosion on a plane and then then another small explosion, one of his bomb factories, and he got out of there. A couple of colleagues of Mine Chase Ramsey around the world for years wow and we just one step behind them-
Entire women chasen literally run world FBI agent named Frank Pellegrino, trying to point out that his name's Pellegrino, which is very popular mineral water in your last name, is vos whatsoever. Walter there's something is getting suspicious here, want to your friends. His name be parry acres, I'm gonna! Go this whole it about voice war. Please tell me wrong, he's, Doin voice water in I should be in our immediate asked me for permission is put everything out. There is yet time, boss, world before he was absolutely not just eight about one hundred and sixty pounds more muscle mass, and I think you ve got a case. So how do you start becoming involved with negotiating with gas? It is in all the stuff. You start out. If you wanna, be a hostage to go shared and almost any law enforcement agency, do it as an additional duty to extra curricular activity. Sure yeah I've been on this one.
At a recurring. The injury and many worked on a couple of times, and so I thought well before the gets blown out entirely. Let me stay in crisis response and Literally, to this day, I remember when I first saw about I thought how hard can beat. I talk all the time I thought it right. I could talk. The terrorists have argued that be there and initially tried to get in and which summarily rejected a woman was run at the time she colonel after me, Cyrus unqualified. Can I also point out one, but a history is at this point prior that there had been the famous terrorist attack, the olympic athletes. There was the white kids, I've been of the e S, employees yeah right, so you had previously. The terrorist em all was to kidnap people and then have demand that's kind of what we saw in the 80s right. That was the playbook where's. Now the people that are grown up post, nine hundred and eleven, it's just a burn.
Destroy method yet of all pass that her Kidnapping globally is always now voice. Money business everywhere. Where there's kidnap, we don't have real kidnapping in the? U S, he don't have it in Canada. You don't have it in England, you haven't in Australia, you don't have an in any country that has any sort of an actual real combination, robust law enforcement and illegitimate prison system. A hearty Kennedy, both ok and you also need the citizens, do not tolerate rights right. So Brazil, for example, they get very well on police. Nobody stays in jail for a period of time in Brazil for aid, Oh really, ridiculously underfunded prison system, but the real issue is they put seventy guys in a cell designed for ten and it put some poor minimum wage Schmolck their guard gear, so the minute the door comes open,
Seventy guys are gonna, run you over and unite in painting things you nothing in their way. This was on sixty minutes last night. They were talking about Salvador and they were showing the prisons where of course, M S. Thirteen, although they started here, they proliferated down there and they showed with the prisons, look like just like four years ago, and it was just like an open air market and, of course, the gang lords or running the whole thing cry, and even They ve crease their ability to incarcerate you to your point, there's a ninth and guys in these loot. We were just watching- oh my god, yet such a different system completely unaware of normally yet right. So the kidnapping exists in a lot of places and most people through lots of money at the problem, so becomes a very profitable thing to do I'll, Cotta ISIS, they still very much in a kidnap business worldwide for money to so we don't hear about it because it doesn't happen here right and you think what? What percentage? Would you imagine of these happy
under the rate our work they kidnapped, someone it doesn't get public, they get the money they want. The person goes back and weakened. Its is no one's ever made aware of it. A lack a lot lot, ok enough, so that our kind of privilege funds are operating from kidnappings in North Africa, no kidding very lucrative for a while. So when you were being taught, the tactic of negotiation are those fundamentally this ones that are still being taught earth. Is that field evolved rapidly as more more disciplines are incorporate It's I called you all. These stuff works a and for the reasons why houses the worse for business and personal life. A high have the term emotional intelligence. This is quantum speed, emotional intelligence and we used to think the stuff work, because there were bad guys, never kidnappers, but it works as their people and everybody's wired a certain way,
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so As you start doing, this, you get involved with a couple of really high profile cases, one that is in the master class session right at the beginning, which I found to be. Fascinating was this journalist Jill Carroll, who was directed- and I rack what year was that of two thousand for a while that case was going down. I was going to Harvard LAW, schools, negotiation, coarse and christian science. Monitor headquarters was in Boston, some horrible caused by day ass, his negotiating ours is a second now Harvard they teach negotiation. Or is it a conventional business negotiation programme on negotiation at Harvard Privilege based on law school? They try for it to be. Everybody.
There's school Kennedy, school local universities, tremendous better cooperation among the masters level, schools up there, but they try to make the centre of gravity the law school, and I you know I had bumped into them and they were heavy into the empathy. The way we do find it and also active listening as we do find it, but we found out, as it turned out our active listening with more of all the more I'm a nurse was at the time, so roads somewhat active listening is well, it's really just a set of skills. It's really proactive listening. I can get you talking by giving you the right kind of prompts at different points in time what both nonverbal in verbal or the whole the whole damn. If our well, because we principally must the stuff we did was over the phone. Ok you're he gives in some nonverbal encourages like those world's greatest nonverbal incur. Keep somebody talking to the simple had not yes, I've. I've tried to master that on this. Show
because you would imagine what I used to do is go yeah. I want you to know I'm listening at all. No, but our african audio is this mean going up, and I was like I gotta get out another cue to let you know I am dialed in zones. We got a lot more nonverbal that title little Nonverbal, not only the big step that they had not been right. And so how did you end up being the go to person for the the Jill Carol case? You got up at some point, the lead, negotiate or re FBI correct well for kidnapping, firstly, about kidnap, ok, crisis negotiation unit, whose run at the time my former boss, my boss, Gary Messner, phenomenal negotiator and visionary again is all right, and then he at that time he sort of handpicked assembled the people that were into it. You know we had a track record. We rent
we worked hard in each of his head, something that we want to look at more I'd love the international kidnapping in an overlap: terrorism. When I had the most terrorism experience, and I have to imagine you be hard pressed to find a job that probably has a more rewarding moment. Then, when it works, I mean you, ve literally talked someone out being killed. I can't there's not higher stakes yet now it is eminently satisfying, and even even more so kidnapping, also there's an entire victim family. A person gets kidnapped, but it changes, everybody's lie and family members suffer PTSD at the same rate as victims, which a lot of pupils and realize that makes sense. You get grab at least everybody in your immediate family. If not handled properly are gonna be hurting for years yeah,
and can you can you tell me some of the just kind of global rules right in that all we now I would imagine, Oddy so myself included. We watch movies people get kidnapped in movies. There's power she's right, like the. U S doesn't negotiate with terrorism. Make concessions is at an extremely carefully worded final. So you tell him: a break that down for us. What does that actually mean in practice? We shouldn't be scared to talk to anybody under any circumstances, and communication process is actually true evidence gathering process. I will work in a kidnapping Trinidad one time we get our hands on a bad guy for not a hundred percent sure it's him, but we've taped the calls. So they sat him down and just play the tape for him, and he said all right. You got me so it's the communication process,
the tremendous treasure trove of evidence and also influence. So why would we want to walk away from that? That doesn't that doesn't make sense? Songs, you don't make concessions is law, whatever we do is designed as an important phrase deny them the benefits of ransom. Deny them the benefits of ransom, cause do I have it right into just. The overall theory is if the gear government pay ten million dollars and get a centre back. Let's say then the next day eighty centres are gonna. Get is at the theory behind it. Well ill. Would pricing you're talking pricing issues, How is how easy is to get the money? How hard our do they have to work for it? How much do you pull out of a deuce, giving bank tellers bade money? Encourage bank robberies will now
oh because I don't get that much money when they go out and then the money becomes evidence, it's an accepted way to deter bank robberies. Okay, so you don't give it a bank teller. One million dollars is bait money. He give him enough money so that the bad guy thinks I got something he doesn't kill a tell her. He leaves the back that, I believe, is a die pact that explodes right, but even if there is- and you get the money you know, the serial numbers and money is ridiculously easy to trace right and ideally in a kidnapping they go out may spend the money they spread it out. Among them the bodies there was a series of kidnapping along round about two thousand and Ecuador. The same kidnapping gang wood was hitting or platforms in October. And just ass. I was coming into the unit. They had another war platform right on schedule and took five Americans hostage.
And the negotiation was on and that the canter companies were going to pay on the insurance or the bad guys ask for a lot of money and a negotiations broke down and he killed an American on deadline on deadline, because they had five Americans and they had unfortunately sounds cows, but the reality situation is if they got more than one hostage they got hostage. To make an example. They have cards play gift cards, so they made it can delivery money they they're all they did was keep track of serial numbers and and they pay the money to get the rest of the hostages out and then for the first time ever they rounded up eighty members of the gang. Now it only took about five hit the platform. So if you go grab the guys that actually do it napping, you're gonna, get between five and ten people, but when they paid the money in its spread throughout their their organ limit, restructured, drew organization and a trace
money. They go back and round up eighty people and then and never hits another plan. It's kind of when the drones change from blowing up the guy setting me improvise explosive device in rather waiting to find out where he returned to it again. Yeah so im guessing so sometimes the government will pay some money or give something isn't that what has happened is a really fine line. Is never government money? they will allow a company to pay that will allow a family to allow an insurance company to pay. You want to keep the money low, just like bait money in a bag. You want to mark the money, so you allow the money to go down range is not gonna, be government money, ok, but you the money to pay, because it's it's actually ridiculously good evidence. Where do they buy their weapons from you know who they really pay for their car, so the houses these people are all engaged in illegal
however, because in the business of selling weapons to bad people yeah, so let's, let's round everybody, ok so now back to Joe Calchas Monica. This is really gonna blow your mind, so this journalist, Joe Carol, gets kidnapped in Iraq and she's been held by out as it Al Qaeda that has ratified got as far as we know, ok, and they do that The video you ve seen right and you know what comes Nag Chris points. It I'll see that video on in the next one is a beheading videos, that's death. Situation that was put on your desk, I guess right in and walk Monica through your approach to that cause. It's really interesting. Well, the most dangerous negotiations and when you don't She got to recognise how the bad guys here any negotiation yeah, percent. How the inside seas,
they start in the media. That means they think the media's good publicity, if there's good publicity them by definition, is bad publicity. They have chosen the communication form to be the media. Ok, we'll play there. What are they looking to do? What have they set out to start with, so they immediately do a video that makes it look like they'll be justified and killer. They do video that, where they supposedly a pronounced judgment on you and executioners, not guilty of murder and execution is simply carries out, the verdict of a higher our so and, as you pointed out in your master class thing in a way it is a testament to their legitimacy as a state that they have found someone guilty of a thing. Another executing punishment, as any nation state, would do exact browser. It gives legitimacy. Air
so we see the video initially and we do a threat assessment on the video is hackberry high threat. Low looks really bad, but we break it down a little bit among the things they did to give us an opportunity to change. The game was a little bit. They picture her with her hair uncovered. Now these under their control. Then it's their fault that she's being disregarded. Their, therefore, that her hairs on Korea. I usually main report, anything exactly we re. So among the things we if she were through the media and through a quote circuits in a media they disrespect and her. They allow there to be photographed for their errand uncovered. The NEO what we do is looking at the culture from their point of view who can make Statement of the median tell the indisputable truth in it seems obvious, but nobody wants to put spent very few people tell the indisputable truth
we want to go with her. Father were or coach indifferent members of her family, but yet we can accept the fact that her fathers gonna have the most important voice in the old early, because hearts or the honour that far yeah share her father is very cultural. All we can do is offer coaching. It makes sense to it. Doesn't we can ask you to turn a certain way? It's your choice. With an eye you do. I never had a problem with anybody in the media because, we would like people no upfront and we would go to an outlet in a meeting. We say here's the deal. You got an exclusive interview, you don't get to ask a single question: joke Carol's father wants to make a statement. If you want that video and you don't have to take it right, but here animals never had anybody double cross me on the ground. Rules are here the ground rules. You feed what he says intact, into the middle eastern media into your outlets
the video out their intact. Ideally the time Al Jazeera, picking the stuff up, it's their choice with an eye to pick it up. Everything's voluntary, we called your girls father in the indisputable true Is he couldn't say that she was innocent? But what's indisputable true was it? She wasn't their enemy. So don't get on the cameras say my daughter's innocent. There can expect that he got on Cameron, said my daughter's now your enemy, nobody could argue with their rank. He pointed out several other thing, there were indisputable. True will specifically she's a journalist and of what you want is exposure to your cause. What she is doing is she's in Iraq reporting the truth back to the west. So, if you have a truthful statement in your on solid footing, that's message. That's going to get back right, exactly that's what she was doing and it was the indisputable truth. So we don't realize that the time we don't find out till afterwards, but they see her father on
and she tells us later on that her captors came to her and said your father's, an honourable man, at this point in time we don't know about his game over? They can't hurt her if they said that about her Father respect hands. We respect her father. We have to respect you, lack the very next video she's in the executioners. Out in the video and her covered. Isn't it Why unbelievable that they controlled that doesn't make real nice thousand miles away it did do another very good another other than a total of three oh, but clearly there listening we go from a high thread: video yeah, really a video, and she said that they culture cry why she's cool and on camera people and families in at this, look real to me anxious that the threat is no longer there. Now we got bad guys say, like
We don't want to do now. They don't know what to do, which is less dangerous right to dangerous, an area that their directionless in a way that unity there and there is also taking the guy with worse idea might win that day and still very fluid. Do yes! Yes, so we know we gonna stand taboo. Nor messaging is getting through and again the man The gene is getting through surrogate set of choose whether or not they want repeated, and we will Here's a we think say what you want and in those kind cases would happen a lot people go. Don't tell me what to say and then they say what we tell them, what we said. They should say They just want to feel like they were free to say it. Solar messaging keeps up and christian sides monitor. They took full accountability for her. They were willing to do whatever they could do without breaking outbreak law, the help? They were wonderful. She worked for number me outlets christian sense. Monitor was only one stood up,
really were to stay over, so they took our guidance and then than they did a third video, not only was a hair covered again she wasn't crying, but they actually it did a better job, letting her rapper hair cuz the first time they had that head scarf on her. It look like it was hastily put together and the last time she was completely put together. She was calm, sure look like meanwhile taken for and we saw the laugh and although she still was out there are the threat levels almost completely gone. And then lo and behold, poof. She appears honestly. Baghdad lessen the exact same place they grab. Why would you make an amazing yes in when you re? I think when you think of the movie version is like you, pitcher, Chris, on a plane and he's got an ear peace next door, but the whole and destined miss of how the message got out and stuff is really interesting. Him yeah, we had everybody work, really well, in that case
yeah, but we need to listen to us. Listen to us. It's so fastening. So I was curious about the Steve sentence. Authorities in tiny in Gaza Strip. I don't know that story. I just read that that was one of your other six dark, as we did a good job. Now, one thing that you mentioned briefly, but a part the skill set, which I really admire, and something that I as a whole a big challenge myself to do. Is you can't the straw, man argument for your adversary. You can't go. Oh! These dumb ass is over there of kidnap this girl, they're stupid and there's no logic behind this, like you have to fully shoot into their mindset, and you have to really make space in your brain to think like them to understand their objectives are right. The really have a capacity which many
People say, as a sign of intelligence is holding conflicting viewpoints in your head simultaneously, and I think that is a great skill for any human being to be nurturing. I agree with you: a thousand pieces I it's actually a little bit easier. It's you really not gettin in your way. Ok, it's! speed, generally open minded and realizing that everybody kind by the same issue, should really does it matter identity issues, their economies, You have a decent vision of future, for your life is or the way you see it now is going to provide a better place. Three kids, you know: what's the future look like to you now, you could have very distorted vision, but it's really focused on those three things. What's right Kennedy what your autonomy? What's a future look like that, but I would imagine it s the thing I always push up against, like the easy, thing is just a label. People evil,
the cure all now. That explains everything, but that doesn't explain a fucking thing right. You have to start by giving enough respect your adversary to go like they are rational within their world view. What is that world view? How do I understand happier in some out of them? This is rational and its rights incumbent on me to figure out what that thought processes or I can't begin to predict what they want. Yeah right. I don't if I don't treat them as somebody that semi rational. That has an objective. How can I give them what they want and is often been afraid, articulate what their point of view is right. I don't know what your beliefs or, if you can't say, ok, here's what you believe right now. Our people just simply refused to do that in its edge first World trade center case you were talking about,
the trial was in a civilian court. We trout islamic terrorists, guy with legitimate islamic religious credentials, and we had Muslims, testifying voluntarily, and so the Muslims voluntarily didn't have to world and come to an end Manhattan and mouth. Every Muslim we put on the standard testify voluntarily out. We would start with prematurely approach? I would sit down with him and I'd say you believe that there has been a succession of United States. Governments for two hundred years had been Anti islamic and they were just they would Blake they're. Not it What can you do understand what their issues right? They say, yeah, that's it exactly. The nine ever said was true right. I never said our agreed and I pointedly didn't never said. I disagreed yes, said Hughes would You believe and its astonishing how far you can get in any conversation with anybody. If you start by saying here,
Cuba mom. Anyone is found themselves in a relationship that is a skill set. That is imperative people, mostly early I believe, want to be heard right out, seen seen and heard you you're absolutely on the money with them in its such an active good faith to say I see you. Here. What you're saying doesn't Why are you to say? I agree right. I think that's what we'll get hung up? They think by being able to state the other person's point we know that their somehow condoning or regional remain, but without the case not now, and then that that's that's the fine line and it seems so hard for some people get over. Yes, but but even if someone who's been married or with someone for twelve years, like it's, not gonna happen on its own eye actually stop NGO. Before I launch into my case, what is our point of view
to be able to state it. Before I start in its work, but it has to be done if we hope to co exist right, exactly ok, Oh your master class. It's broken down. It's basically, if I could sum up your point of view, which I like is that and this is by the way, similar my father was a car salesman, peace. Let me down one day and he said I don't care what job you pursue. You will be a salesman, Is the bottom line there? No one as a job there, not a salesman. You a chemist. You got a present side data somebody and in that presenting of that idea, you're asking them to buy into this thing you just discovered whatever it is. You will have to be a salesman one that was his worldview, and there's some validity to us into Your worldview is or the point at least of your master classes. You might not think you're negotiations it might pass you either your daily in negotiations. I think you say and in the introduction
three times a day. You're in a negotiation would mineralogy alone number two up for me: I have a four year old, the six year old. It's like my like a thousand I'm negotiate from the second, my eyes open rack, the fight. That's why open up to people are fighting in the house, so I'm hugely aware of how much negotiation happens in my life, but you you do a great job of explaining art so any time the world I want it in your head or coming across somebody's lips, gonna negotiation and the commodity that involved in every negotiation is time Most people think that the only time you know negotiation if somebody wants dollars, but it's always time because of Eu Trade dollars is always time so I want to. I need one why favoured stores gentleman started this phenomenon website called secrets said that some EU secrets Firstly, I that's a great. I will tell the world would have you travelling with somebody.
Elsie struggling with, are also going to happen to know the not alone three ease tell me he gets. He gets a brain stolen still in wrapper, Starbucks Coffee CUP? With a note, I give decamped people who were me, are you gonna go others I've and implementation of all? Will we have a friend who were at a restaurant and when someone is a complete ass hall and they ordered decaf at the end of the night. He these pouring the cabinet copy. He says so we dream thought about the other way the unless you're living on a mountain buy yourself a solitary life you're going to have to negotiate Conor regularly to move through life right. I want directions. I want an upgrade. I need this. I want that whatever is in
There is one reason why I say that that number through force, probably lower mean book. I read recently stated that, through the course of the day, there are at least four hundred attempts to persuade us, and all the different advertise advertisements constantly were constantly being bombarded with some form persuasion, so few reaction in any way shape or form to attempt to persuasion year. Negotiation at last that, even when you are trying to persuade these are just coming at us, So we are, the number negotiations went every day is probably one distinction you make and I would love to hear you more about it was conventionally, you think, o the adversary in a negotiation. Is the other party involve when, in fact the adversary is the negotiation. Adversaries the situation yeah that
I think that deep, personalized away, that's helpful work and that, with the point I wish to refer to a counterpart, not not your emissary, if you think of any other person is your adversary, then you kicking it. Who conflict too much and you got your back up and then they're gonna get their back up and he's gonna eliminate inner margin yeah and it an almost has to fall into the protocol of Winter loser right, it does exactly the an important factor for negotiating we're both face with different aspects of the same problem. So in order to do the best, we can possibly do it's about collaboration and also she has the ocean is about getting somebody who collaborated is an to re, brought yeah problem. Explicitly set out to not right cooperate. I've got the back up whatever it is, and I love the fact that we really go into this again in a master class episodes and segments
cuz we're talking about using tone of voice to decrease the conflict, just all sorts of different approaches. Even the mental attitude that you have inside. If I think of you as an adversary, it's going to come out my voice, my voice going to be bad, but if I think okay, look, we got a little changes in. My tone is going to have an impact on you. It's it's actually going to go straight back to you were talking about the gang crimes, guys in their intuition And so, when I change my approach to you, your intuition is going to be. If I'm thinking you're an adversary, your intuition is going to pick that up Is going to shut you off? If I'm thinking look, we got to collaborate, if that's overwhelming, in my mind, your intuition is going to pick that up. Yeah, I'm gonna change how you respond, because if I feel like I'm attacking you, then you not gonna feel attacked or you feel less.
Tat, at least so I think you might like this. One of my very best friends in the world is older. Hollywood, entertainment lawyer and he's just one of the best ever live, and I once I was driving with him and why I mean I said what Your unique talent like what is it that has made you so good at this job and he said I dont know if I'm unique in it, but I can tell you my main goal right out of the gates is: I need is more information is possible because I need to find out what the other party wants emotionally right, cuz, it's not general attachment someone has in this: let's good, that's exactly it, and then there are certain emotional about they're not cross in this twenty, like what I said before it identity, which be that look like be to tell me that, there's so many elements you could focus on, indeed, that the real skill is isolating. What
is the emotional attachment someone has in this guy's good, that's exactly it, and then there are certain emotional attachments that are predictable a little bit like what I said before: autonomy identity Future. Look like just tell me that that's it you're going to lose your yourself, your ear, your autonomy as other saint yeah, or, if you feel forced into anything, aha, we know this passage negotiation. I started or more in all negotiations. Gunning Jim Camp wrote a book in two thousand to call star with no end. He was trying to get people to say no, but Jim pointed out that the free or you are to make a decision is to call it right to veto. As long as I tell your friends, okay to say knowing say nor made any type are preserved your autonomy, you're, not you'll, backed into a corner. If I come at you with this. Yes nonsense, trying to get you say yes, this whole yes, momentum, village is
Every time I get you to say. Yes, it's a micro agreement and ties. You doubt that's to take your time. Your way, you're gonna feel that every step the way rise on never gonna approach. Anybody like that because I'm infringing on your autonomy camps, says in his book. People die over there. All I well mother fucker, let's do yeah yeah, but that wasn't hostage negotiations based on to begin with, and that's what I do that there was an immediate application because he was a guy in a completely different arena. There was ridiculously successful. Applying that idea in business, Do you know? I accidently have discovered that I would have never been able to articulate what you just said, but I've accidently discovered that with my kids, if I start by Goin, look you're gonna get do what everyone at the end of this year. Pick this. You can do it. You can pick this. That's fine, but here's the reason. I really hope you pick blank. I start with go. Unlike look you're. Yes, it's gonna he up to you and just the difference. How those conversations go when I like
neatly empower them with vat is like the death. This is kind of go down and then they came here you see a lot of people would miss Saunders. Then your data sample their reacting like that cause of human beings, not because your parent, their kids. This is human being on human being reaction and you're. Actually the cool approach about that too, is you teach him to think which is what a parents job? Ideally, you know worth taking a shower trying to get our kids to think, but in that thinking process in preserving their autonomy, the more likely to get away yeah stating arms. If you dare We are supported by quip makers of the quip electric doing they want you to know that one single discovery that matters most for your dental care. It is simply this that, if you of good habits, you're good, the best bar, and why
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compromise on some levels. Ultimately, a good aim, or now no the rays. That's that's that they tell me tell Erika, is it: is it not should be, will be trying to get what they want? All the time is that that the well off, old approach. You should be open to the best ideas to the crazy thing about never split. The difference is, if I'm going to live by those rules. I have to be willing to accept. You might be completely right, better for me not better. Do not meet halfway, relinquish the whole thing over to you re. You might be completely right. I gotta I gotta be opened the way you have to say. I know where you come from your attorney from before. Starting to gather, information
I got to gather some information from you. It's not likely it's actually a certainty that you know something about this that I don't know it's an absolute certainty: black swans. What are the tiny little pieces of information that will change everything? You have something that I don't know and if I find out what it is, make completely changed my perspective. I've got to be open to that. Okay, okay, that's good that you will rise to a the greater truth. What's the what's the best deal, I can't I cannot have the market cornered on the truth or the facts, ministries of thing that a lot of people argue over it to use a military tournament today to metric world, which means you can't possibly have all the information. None of us ever can you're going to have stuff that I don't know I'm going to have stuff. You don't know what
really beg your brain is what's in the overlap. In a long time ago, Donald Rumsfeld was famous for sandy unknown unknown, but what's the overlap in the facts that each of us have that the other doesn't have to possible to say what that is In a fine willing to accept that, if we collaborate, we can together come up with a better idea. That's would never split the differences. Compromises usually shorthand for I'm tired of this, and I want to do work which is cut in half ass, but the baby, a move on rights were right. It is not a good. I taste. Ok, now in the EP, sounds. You go through a bunch of different things. It's gonna broken down. If, if I'm right tactical empathy, mirroring labeling, mastering delivery body, language and speech pattern, the value of now. Bending reality, a mock negotiations. These are all episodes,
It raises a cool stuff in recent years, so we ve touched on some several of these. I want to know. The value of now, and I want to know about bending reality light. So the value of note it's so stupid that this works, but everybody says now because it makes him feel safe, if not, actually that actually listen to what they say and things through the implications I mean saying no makes you feel safe and protected. What happens if you feel safe from protected you open up cause. You feel safe from protected so, let's get people say no, so that's all count or intuitively otherwise, business step. I know what you're trying to get people on a pattern of saying yes like say make him say yes, eight times, and I have to say yes the ninth time and all that that not a fairy country this nonsense there, but our soul.
Something as simple as I check my hotel for me. I get in there at nine, a M M in the town I take from yonder, not gonna. Let you get your room till two or a lot of hotels of realized. We can charge you and early check in free it all. I walk up to the young lady, the desk, and I say I'm gonna make a day credibly difficult, but she doesn't know, but in a hotel, God knows what they face a body and mind you. I got to deal in your free base. Cocoa air arisen, Gobbler Rackliff. I remember what are you up, but I say it: sort of a playful mood in Jakarta goes right. Would he got bring it on and I say: is it a ridiculous idea for me to get in my room early with no early check in fee, and is it ridiculous for me to ask what kind of grades you got I'm getting her to say? No,
now. It's not ridiculous. Now allow early check in get the upgrade she's delighted with the interaction, because, first of all, I scared her. She was able to help me. Your expectations got real low. I mean I didn't. The thing called emotional anchoring without the star with ok and then I left her feel like she did something for me. Was she really helped me out? So I'm going to walk away and she's going to feel great about it and it's going to carry. But you're next generation, aha how would you literally just the word? No, it's not even like she's knows who you as, unlike I'm, stop aver all right. It's micro now coming out of a man who put his that's so stupid, but you feel safe from protected. When you say now, and then let's say you can't do it, but if I say with this work for you and their problems, I'm gonna want you to say yeah reward for me, but here the problems.
But yes, since yes is always a trap, you going to do that. But if I say is this Stupid idea. Are you against system disagree? If there are still problems, now you say not disagree, but here the problem could you feel like, since you said, no, you can provide me with. More information with no attached commitment, rain, numbing man's, where I can't go through this. Yes nonsense with these micro agreements, we feel trapped because you got your ear in power now yeah in theory. I didn't yeah, yeah, yeah right I mean, and even then my ex girlfriend I come home and I'd say you know Do you want me to do door dash? I'm cannon mood, fool cheesecake factory. Can our order cheesecake factory? Now and what are they have? Let's talk about this and I would from that gone you against me ordering a cheesecake factory and should go now go had not what now
I think that I would potentially push back on is simply do you have children full grown, Ok in more than one just one? Ok just want baggy seemed like more than one, but ok Then you, if you want of experiences phenomena, but I'm sure aware of a euro smart person, but we had one child and we were like. We should write a book. We are phenomena, parent, this child does every single thing. We ask her to do and we just we are geniuses and then we had a second child. Child doesn't do anything. You ask her to do in fact relishes and not doing whatever you ask her to do, and so There are two completely different approaches to both these kids. So one one blanket statement: weirdly the no thing works, amazingly with the difficult child interest. I have to start everything that way: you're in charge, you're the boss, not I want you to do this.
I don't want you to the thing. I really want you to do ages- has to go one. Eighty from you, it is. She was just born that way with any of these approaches it. If you can get a little, I think a little blanqui in that it would work for everyone. But I just in my own experience with my two kids, I know I have to have nearly opposite approaches to get what I want out of this situation so impossible, that for some people, that know is possible. That's a yes oriented question a yes! all that a case of Jack Daniels fall out of a passing airport lion house. Let's hope, let's all of us is it
ok, let me just be more direct as it too simple to say that that that either the no reproach the yes approach is the best approach for all people. When I myself witness such staggering differences in how people want to be talk to, I felt first will best chance of success, and this is something I learn from afraid. I'm from my boss gearing up what's our best chance of success, nothing is guaranteed. You know everything, some flaws, you start with what your highest percentage chance of success based on different drivers of human nature, but also adjusting the person in front of and treat them how they need to be treated, not how you want to be treated but how they need to be treated like Heaven. In plan and also be flexible and ready to pivot pay attention to how its landing, with the other side right, like I'm, not gonna, say possible ever again in funding. I learn that you just now. I know that this rate that physical as a trigger work for you sign a redirect
a very similar word: that's not possible environment. Ok, that's the value! Now I really like that, and now what is bending reality are emotional reaction to laws, and it's not me this data common, noble horizon. Behavioral economics, two thousand and two prospect. Theory tournament: reverse keep cooked it up. Amos Tversky die by the time, doesn't know what price was handed out. Danny has made no bones about the fact that AMOS would have got it too, but he had died. Okay lost things twice much is an equivalent gay say they want a loss. Stings twice as much as an equivalent game, make some money I have of listen to like five different podcast about this, where they do these experiments, where people gimme their lose money or wind money right is simply in the phrasing, the exact same odds, but if you prefer
The first is a lost, even predict the decision and if you presented as a went yeah hypersensitive, but everything in life is like that. Like do you varsity player salesperson, say you now implement this system. You return, investment will be twenty percent. You get twenty percent better every day a varsity player will say, do not use our product and lose twenty percent every day. While you sleep, you gonna lose twenty percent, It's the same thing once again what the laws we don't lay up at night with insomnia over gains. Yeah. We sleep like a baby. Everybody stay up all night, you loose sleep, you stress for anxiety, anything Europe is over a loss of some sort, it eats it. You would keeps you from sleeping you think about it in the shower. You think about it. When you're done
What's the lost it's under your skin that, if you do nothing, you lose and that's the difference between the a players and the Nazi players cuz, the a players know that the loss is going to get under your skin you're not going to be able to shake it until you do something about it and do nothing and lose. We are more likely to He could decision to avoid a loss. That's our first move. Well, how many guys intermarriage counselling to perpetuate their marriage, verses, save their marriage once a loss at once again interesting, I never many ones like. Oh you know. We decided what we'd love to perpetuate this thing another twenty years, so we started marriage, counselling, yeah. I want to keep this up. Yes, doesn't work that way like out over law, but- soon as you're looking at losing the person also near opened all kinds of things right right. Well, you know it. Makes me immediately think about great chapter blink by Malcolm Gladwell of Euro. That book and talks about
it's going on Bio chemically, so we have evolved right to get it. Double mean reward if we eat in season ripe, bury its very pleasurable expire regions and we get a little chemicals to reward us, because we ve just nourished ourselves and that's good for our longevity. If we'd ways in his bury. We will get a dog. Of course, all in other negative right calls and though, There are ten times as strong as dopamine as a chemical. It's ten times stronger, and he said this carries into your life. So if you tell your wife ten times that you love her and she gets that Dopamine Bob and you collar of fucking bitch. One time there's a reason that that takes at least twenty more. I love use because you're, a fucking bitch gives a cortisol dumb and just the camel you can't compete with the chemicals right. You can't think your way out of it right, right, right, right, right, Jack,
and that losses that it bans reality it does Ben reality. That's where Monica I could just was an yeah, but Monica was just involved in it in a very high stress negotiation, Viner First home alive, bitters ended emulation. Thank you what do you know she one year, you can count on walking about. The squire read me these quick, ended up in, like a probate court. Light auction with other people, you wanna talk about a fuckin stress were ass well, and I think she could really benefited from some of these. I gas, but we were only. We were just money, so we couldn't. I couldn't like convince, although we did have a strategy
We had a tragedy there, s tragedy, tragedy and I get a strategy. There was emotional, but we were very emotional, because the house is right there so were now neighbours, and so exciting, better be it makes for good drew exactly here. So we, or hyper emotional going and we felt like nobody else. Is this emotionally invested, and so I went in with Kristen. She came with me and issues of famous person, and it was so intimidating from they get go just even have her present their monsieur. Wasn't there was a real disruptor What do you say that take take revenge now and she's like making all these jokes as if yes, no way, no project yeah she's in a lively mood, but it was stressful, Andy
I think you'd have enjoyed watching the entire scenario. From from beginning to end Gallo kidding, I well mostly intelligent to be making jokes exactly to lighten the moon. Lines the mood, but then everyone is getting more and more intimidated by the second. This person is making jokes, I'm not in the space to be making jokes cause. I'm nervous like that's with their thinking. This person cares so little in a way that means, oh, she just so confident, she's gonna get it they don't even know. She's, not even the one bidding she's just their wages, moral support, the fact that she's there people were. Choose your nice swatting. She was it's what they re, really completely different emotional different emotional by exactly again you know again. We already talked about it, but you're in all these different negotiations. But how can people apply? these two teenagers children, these tough work on human beings.
So much is, I don't seem like it think it uses to human beings, really driven by negative emotions. We talk a lot in a class about how did the activate the negative emotions as stupid. As it sounds, a tumor of shift to deactivate negative emotion goes from Denying someone the right to have that emotion to simply recognising it. There was a neurosciences experiment that show that the only way to defuse negative was simply call him at the elephant around, You don't get rid of the elephant in the room by denying that there and its relatively ineffective to pretend it's not there. But if you just say that there is an ally in the room- and this is what it is, then people are far less
terminated, so Gimme a practical example of a teenager. Having negative my. What would be an example that what would you say and now, let's preempted, let's be proactive, let's get on front of it. If you deny a teenager something worthy and say I hate you, I hate you, that's not fair. My life is over there, so you say. Look when I say this. You gonna hate me you'll feel like it's not fair, and even if you like, your life is gonna, be all their ago hung call out the often a room. In advance, because nobody imagines two teenagers and well. I didn't think my life was gonna be over, but now that you mention it, I do right right, you're, not planning on our planet. You you get not in front of it, because that is at the appointed time it's actually kind of fund a watch. Somebody tried or take your aid? There reasoning that you just said right and a category yeah, they do I start a lotta sentence with this is not fair really.
Which is so often true. There Can I have this they'll be moments where we have a great friendship. We also have an employer and employee relationship when these are two separate things right inquiry often when that lying its glory. It's like I want to recognize. Oh, we ve skewed in the zone words. This is not fair. The power dynamics not equal now we're having a business conversation than the blue, was, I would hate to just be friends with somebody and then like a lights, which now I'm in this other her dying where Europe boss and I'm an employ in its tricky We have those gonna conversations, a lot yeah. We did. We do at these in it. Tat requires a lot of good. Therefore, we gonna be on, and we ass good have a good idea. If we just hope it's gonna work is going to work out how much the communication of the other part about saying something like this is not. This is not fair, yeah you're already, showing the other person the
concerned enough about them. Is people We want to make sure lance and that's a huge different sets. The difference between somebody's blunt and somebody's illustrate shooter. Nobody likes aim, but if you want everybody likes, it shooter. What's the difference, a straight shooters careful how a plant? oh yeah yeah, it also just goes back to. You feel C and when somebody is saying I know this is unfair, because in it get is unfair, at least they recognise or I'm coming from room. However, Whenever I just want to be seen and heard you Bob was down so funny. There are so many little things in life were the delineation between the two is razor sharp, and yet the outcome is so defy the one I always say in relationships is learner. Be vulnerable, but bread. Nice where the line between vulnerable in media is no ones
can attract the needy right, but everyone's attracted vulnerability and that is a razor thin yeah border between as to how many claim I made that up good good, good guys, gonna, I steal everything for me and I'm just passing around. So if you want to take some of its really get, it is very true, but I also fear that that statement makes people feel like they shouldn't have needs Nobody needs are good needy miss is, I need you to regulate. My emotions right dependent on you to control, how I feel no one wants that response. I want to love, you support you, but handle your shit. In part. You and your is I'm scared, I'm afraid those are all good. I can help you come to that, but if you're letting me no hey,
my balances required that you do something. That's too much of responsibility for one human have her another, doesn't help anybody be a crutch rights right, but boy, it's hard for us Actually when you're you love someone you're scared, your emotional to be, the delineate that, as there is a huge, for all of us agree completely near we'll. Chris, I gotta say I watched the master class. It's really good. I also just want to add. I just got acknowledges conflict of interest, as are also a sponsor, but genuinely with that said their view. Well produced like the fact that we go to the actual coverage of Jill Carroll and we get to see the reality of you. Just explaining that story. It's gonna have some weight, but to see the human being is surrounded by these four guys. The stakes of that get real, immediate. It just very, very well produce they do a great great job. Sponsorship aside, I was blown away with. How are they that right with absolute, its first first class, if an honor? Really
yeah phenomena thing to be a partner or Chris thanks so much for coming, and it was such a pleasure- and I wish you tons of work with this. I hope everyone watches ever man talk with you. Soon and now, my favorite, by the show, the back checked with my saw me bad man, crisper vos, this defer cross cos Are you gonna get crass he'd be pulling the c r o brokers fury the sea. We saw a woman it's your mouth you're in a lovely brown ensemble. You ve got three different shades of brown. One is an oatmeal like yours, shill one as I am. What we call
clay. Brow, clay, brown, clay, brown per se- does clay brown. We love his work on insects No, I I'm feeling goes to take to oil claimed Brown does not sound like someone who got interested insects, it sounds like he got interested football. Oh come to me, oh sure. Well, the browns, the Cleveland Browns is laughable, ok! Maybe that's why it feels navy. What is that the browns, I think its rays? Oh my god. Oh there is because aims as brown peoples a nice thing to say so it's working now, but it browned by people in about by. Nine years, it will not be we. What do you really think it means? I have no idea that,
I would ask you, Google, what does the Cleveland Browns team mean that question on the website? Men of last outcome, they say: there's some debate about whether Cravens Professional football franchise was named after its first coach and general manager pauper. Or after boxer, Joe Louis who was nicknamed the brown bomber, making Mcbride conducted a fan contest in nineteen. Forty five in the most popular submission was browns. Ok, there's some options here. I like the Jello is one because he's up the private Detroit. When you go downtown harmless or there's a big fears, the famous fish they owed Ain t they show sums shot in Detroit Lincoln include that fell, that's Joe Louis's fit. Every city has one of those you know I would stay. Ours is the Santa Monica Ferris Wheel.
Yeah, they gotta show that somewhere show the Pierre, and will the Hollywood sign the Santa Monica unless there are a lot of them here, been very minarets. Capital records building in movies, I feel, like they're, always show in the peer review here very lightweight Ferris, we're Well, maybe the Coke Museum or the the Cold Museum, it's a huge deals there waiting aquarium? They have a beautiful aquareine. They do what we loved land has no just lambs. Triumphing of what thing makes you go? Oh that's, Atlanta, sneezing, we're, ok, on mountain paused on mountain cause. Now you kind of I do at least when I hear still mountain. I go right to the history of the quickly. Click on reset Eugenie come out. What would it would have wanted? Debutantes have have a rival, party or debut. You know where they get prison
into trainings. Does the audience without going food all over there, of course, and yet, like some sort of ball, that they have a Google, what party does the debutante have? According to Wikipedia? I gave you time. Power is a form of all that includes presented a few times during the season remaining. Usually during the spring or summer I said ball sounds like I was right, you're right, did you know any debutantes? No, I don't! I don't understand. It sounds like the southern thing. He hasn't royal knew how I feel about it. Multi monarchies, yeah, I'm against them. I now although I really want interview Prince Harry, he's the one who defected right yeah, I don't have he'd, say the fact that sounds extreme, pretty extreme that guy move to Canada, then he's a taking is the first time ever higher sports goods pretty extreme. We're knew no, I mean, I think, people.
Ought to be so extreme and in my opinion I just some like ok yeah, it's different. It's definitely different. There was a neat framing of it on the daily did he listened episode, but it talked about. Why, like conservative England is so offended by it in its that you know just thing represents this history in this tradition and it needs to be revered in a way to justify its continued existence. So to have someone just quit it they see it as just threatening to the entire thing. The Vulcan concept, yeah anyways, I think, is really all that he did that in ways. Yes, what confidence it must take. Are sure to be the first to do that. I'm shirts and it did it would happen or at least, not least from what the daily said that it was a largely into of his wife and child that he didn't want that scrutiny
publicity and all that, and I think that's cool that its quota, that he would chooses life over a title yeah. I just need a meter. The Prince Harry. We will fly to Canada to talk to you. Let us know when and where to be, we will be there, so we wonder gas yogi, really funding meta, Maddy, armed him, Hortense doughnuts share because of inheritance. Coffee details are sold doughnuts. Then there are primarily a donut shop in the same way that people like governance, coffee, but, as you know, it's a donut shop, delicious doughnuts at him. Organs in there is actually no such importance in Detroit, but it's the most emblematic franchise of cannon I think she will mean a ended. So civilian of him, like you'll, really be sending a message that he did an interview at TIM organs. Why I ll also maybe two Morton's would pay for our airfare term Release Mr Horton Tsar hoarding yet meet up crass Chris fast.
What we have not had a hostage nigger. We have an eye. Anyone like Chris, on whenever anyone from law enforcement in First law enforcement, guest yeah is an interesting the lens by which they have to approach their work. It did first from how US civilians can approach life. I won't let it when will. We have been tasked with solving crimes or preventing crimes, so we have the the freedom to just crews through life and take every situation at face value or maybe explore further, but they're really looking through the lens of like whose a criminal on. How do I stop them? This is a completely different minds earlier tat. That is so. He was talking a Kansas city. Oh, it's just had a big Superbowl aware of Superbowl vexed rumours and gradual, usually have, although As you know, their dog integration, be like. I think these guys
Kansas City would now now you are now saying that my dad lived there in Kansas City AIR and he said he knew in a show and then you're wondering as a popular name. Oh yes said and ass, my mom, ok and she said yeah, it's probably equivalent tomorrow, put some more yeah. What I wonder, what she thinks is number one like deceiving that was number six MIKE is the most was the most popular MIKE. Day, wrestler area very ubiquitous yeah. I wonder that too because like to mark is a specific Paul videos and I want to say it's like number ten four miles, but still there the popular you know, a mark bullets Y know, hey Google. What are they? most popular male names in the United States? I found ten on the website. Pray dont come here are the first I've Liam no art William. This is currently
and Oliver want me to tell you more. Thank you because I agree with you. It has become very her baby easier. That must be like twenty nineteen votes on all. We are also very bread. If you ask your mom this question and thirty year shall likely Noah it's exactly chokes. Colonel ignore! Ok, I'm in You said that you watched a documentary on Netflix arguments, something really quick, because we now learn the name of the documentary. I was talking about the thud right. Yes, is the psychological expense? A man about the Ds Am, and the thought people going to psychiatric words and saying that they're just hearing the sound thud and then everything else they have to tell the truth about new found I found it. So it's called and by the way I found it with the help of some armchairs. So thank you guys uninspiring, who remained me. It's called the Rosen
experiment and the video you can watch is called rose in hand being seen in insane places. Sal K, pretty fascinating, pretty fascinating railways eyes, one update people met, but yeah he found it was a point that I am I am now you are right. Ok, then, you are Netflix stock to off. Sir is about two officers intact. Remember the name of it. I guess there's a couple that came up when I type that in the force, No, the seven five cop watchers none of those sound familiar part. Could none of those sound, rightly didn't sound raw data on all of the EU market? figured out I'll figure it out our report back on one which, exact time It was here at high. He said that there is as well Psych called secrets or people post their secrets anonymously, but it's called post secret. It
Indeed? Did it start with people sending postcards in? It was a book yeah. They made it through a buck, but yeah people would send things like the the Starbucks cop are like random things like that, and then he would be made into a book. But I remember it was so popular when I was, I think in college. I remembered thumbing through the book maybe a Barnes and Noble sure was the other one. I like the internal borders. I would give us more borders. Guy yeah. Ok, that surprising, do you think that's a lower brow as I should not surprise, exactly see you being like Barnes and noble nobody and establishment of nobles and the work is to royal nobility but borders. That's, like you, know your crossing the border. Down into Mexico on the run from Johnny LAW from Chris or share yards.
And borders was just enormous. I remember there's one in town place and no vine had to be three hundred thousand square feet a book. I just love the ambitions and noble girl threw their limit. I really love it another, but a bookstore gear there on the on the decline unfortunate, you know anything about this. We are watching the Superbowl, to be when you watched the Superbowl in the Eightys and Ninetys. Well, it change in the nineties. I'd say that eighties, every commercials for a product yet purchase and as our economy has evolved into one. That's more of a service economy. Love you workin service is opposed to build Reno, factory in selling price. The commercials now have more service unnoticed, aware that last night, so many services being advertised, that's true, he brought e brings up means Huxta bending reality. He brings up Danny COM
An indian economy him up in a SAM Harris's episode that overall dislike about her evaluate their happiness right, whether it's like a media or remember that was the idea that was SAM's, and then this was about how we feel stings. More then, Turkey's basic, ah, should we have DNA code was finding. I think, that's what the world is telling, let's reach out to Danny Cohn. In my view, it took me a couple days for your hotter spells very hard. Dispel. Guy has earned a u g h in there now I mean I think I might, they'll drawing years. Why actually down? Ok, won t you g h in an aim. Ok! Well, that's not, therefore know its other far seen. It's got too complicated Ok, so you said that in blank that there's a chapter in which Malcolm says that cortisol is ten times stronger than to open me,
an I reached out to Malcolm- and I asked him point blank use this trip and he said No, I don't think so. It sounds like something I would say, but I don't remember saying it and it's not in any of the indexes array of any of my book, I'm so fell, but I think of them is a book. I'm happiness. I rode church is attributed to Malcolm watches war. In line with blank, which is talking about all the chemicals in the brain that are responsible for all these things. Slicing thought process ease, so I thought for sure. That's working for, but soon, as you said, you email them. I sort of panicking allowing he didn't remember as a year at other other book about happiness. This is where we factual net is an here. But he said that he likes the idea that were attributing interesting things right, whether or not he did it or not, but did you know he discovered these sorts of the Colorado River. What are they
Sorry, given him right in railways and chlorine exactly you know he plays the order for our first people to do. All that was ok Christmas, vis, vis cross this cause for this cause Gaza caused us. That's Andrews, dad's name. It's also Bob processes. Last oh yeah because is Robert faster I love you buddy.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-16.