In this inaugural episode of Experts on Expert, the Armchair Expert speaks to author and child psychologist, Dr. Wendy Mogel about human patterns of behavior, the impact of social media on the family and the importance of free-reign grandparenting. Wendy gives advice on how to speak to children and Dax asks for reassurance on his parenting strategy. The two of them breakdown the moral dilemma of behavioral diagnoses, the role of fear and Wendy discusses a study that uncovered the one thing every child wishes they could tell their parents.
Dr. Wendy Mogel is a practicing clinical psychologist in Los Angeles, New York Times bestselling author and international public speaker.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
becoming the armchair expert. I am Dac Shepard and we have a fascinating yesterday. She will, she will be the
doggerel guest for experts on expert, where we talk to people who actually know what you're talking about not just Monica Nigh, who never very loose grasp of
the facts in unit differ. You give me us screwing. I have more facts than you
Sometimes it's backpacker, well Wendy Model is a Phd she's, a clinical psychologists in she focuses,
specifically on childhood or my
saying that re? Monica childhood psychologist
She wrote a very popular book called the blessing of askin me and she is new book called voice lessons for parents what to say how does
and went to listen, I think I think
I would encourage any one who lives in this episode. It's the most
on fire MIKE. I ever been with the guests in the room she so smart and you had to stay in your toes and it was so intellectually stimulating,
and it has applications that are that transcend parenthood. Childhood anything is tons of human kernels.
Wisdom in this episode. Yeah don't have children and others still very, very interesting to me,
so please enjoy the super. Smart superfine super witty
Wendy mogul. Oh all out before we enjoy Wendy, we
We need to move a fact check item up. We gotta move up early because we don't want any unemployment.
No pregnancies on our hands so nervous about by real he hath it has
been pointed out to us that you
absolutely can get pregnant while breastfeeding. So if you are nursing
you know your husband's gonna going- have to wrap things up. Itches you're, just not safe from getting pregnant, even though your nursing, clearly, we ve been told it happened, so keep it safe guys
he's? Not when these represent just call you when you know your doktor, so I should
I prefer being called doktor model not by you. Ve got nothing piece of cake
because we are peers were sitting in the attic together. Ok grow a really fancy myself, a doctor cell work offence.
We saw me that's why you picked arm chair experts
right. You're part cast, that's right
because I am, I know it all was no doubt our facts to back me up you during Anthropology Major elected, oh, my goodness, I'm about to get out.
Armchair expert. But you are basically our first expert
arm, chair expert, which is really fun. I mean, of course, like Katy Kirk was is an expert in journalism, but you, you are an academic you're, a doctor you're, a clinical psychologists,
you have a practice that his span a few DEC
It's now item thirty five years, thirty five years and you ve written a couple, a very popular books rate. The first book you wrote was the blessing of askin me. Yes, that accurate, yes, and that was a popular buck right. It still is it still at eighteen years. That's amazing, a guy
who directed meant most of the episodes of this show parenthood I was on Larry trailing. Who was one of my favorite human being
on Planet earth, Larry trailing
was telling me all about you and that he takes. He and his girls therefore tune ups. Occasionally he called them
any kind of broke down the way you think of child psychology and in child rearing in everything. He said appealed to me and I really like your opinions and theories about child rearing now
we ask you this. Do you fine, like ideas now apparent of too little kids, that talking about parenting is one of the most triggering things for people in
general, that it really seems to cut right to our deepest spheres being that we're gonna do a bad job at this. So when people get critical or their even just voicing thoughts, they have of
brown about parenting, its
MR really get temperatures flaring quickly. I interviewed
middle and middle schoolers and high schoolers all over the country, and I asked them a set of five questions. I said what dear parents worry about, that they don't need to worry about what should
They worry about that. They don't the. What are the sweetest things your parents do that they may not realise how much you appreciate. What do you like doing with your parents and what don't your parents understand about texting
people by the most interesting thing was that every single group of kids from little towns in Texas to their hipster sex
Brooklyn to DC everywhere, all the kids said the same sentence really.
Because at the end I would say tat. Give me tell me
You want me to tell your parents tonight. He said: please tell them to relax
to lacks, held, tell them to take a chill pill held them to take a chill pill and relax son.
Answer to your question is yes, it is wildly triggering yeah because a couple of things
that imagine right in here again and await into some psychological territory have no business being in, but but our children are an extension of our own ego. Is that accurate to say
more than ever so like. I know
now that your family, but certainly the families I grew up with then dad's
AIR Lee knew at the top of their head. What green there are protected
her trial with your said they would say no fist
and now we are
so tuned and involved and concerned
palliative with each other about the kids and unsure of ourselves. That we over think almost everything you have. You have him
packed in the last nine days. Up to some beautiful scenic, overlook with your children and lived off the land for two days in my community. You are an abject failure as a dad in I do often say to my wife enough already spent more time with our two kids
my dad did in his in the entire eighteen years. I was a kid so yeah, it's it's evolving at this really rapid pace. Isn't it the expectations of probably both parents in the expectations of the mother of the Father of certainly change for involvement,
and what you just described is a perfect example of the backpacking. So there's a japanese term machine ring Road coup, which means forest bathing
Remember I haven't done any forest bathing with your kids and last five days: you're slacker, bad, aha and since every snapshot you take of your children predicts their entire future. Their due
yeah in your right, it's so document, and I think there was also the US a certain level of anonymity when my parents were raising me in that
there wasn't all this photographic evidence in video that was gonna exists in online presence of how you were parent,
right. There is really no way unless you were out at the park
who the hell knew what was going on at home, but now you have Facebook, Instagram Twitter,
all these windows into people's lives, so your kind of putting on a bit of a show at all times as apparent right at all times externally and internally,
that branding we do internal branding of ourselves,
The minute we look and anybody else's any other parents, Facebook or Instagram, and
I love that you said photographic evidence because it really is as though some one is going to come and take a dna.
Temple and see if your children have touched enough trees
in the last fifteen minutes just or if we ve expose them to some kind of harmful plastic or something in the water bottle.
You gotta cannot paintbrush those out of the photos before you,
I mean I haven't, read someone see your kid holding like a dishonor bottle or something the water,
the microbes in us and bark
the mother, who follow
the other mother to trader Joe to see if the vegetables she's bringing for the school
all snack, are,
surely not or an
Yes, the startling so
little detour this as there is a whole field of Anthropology called garb ology right in the reason it kind of came about, is that they would do these ethnic or fees on populations of people, and they would ask them. What are you feeding your children right in the generally, the mothers would say all off. We had, prime
Monday, who he hath a keen wholesale and on Tuesday blah blah blah blah blah, but when they went to the town dump
and they went through the half of what they found was either one family was eating, five million boxes of macaroni and cheese and all the other ones were eating exactly as they said, or everyone's is line right. So there's this thought
Anthropology that you learn much more about people by just going through their trash as you'll see the real evidence of how their living, not necessarily how they would like you to think their living and again it's
interest in the age of social media that people are getting this weird window into our lives right in. So even if you dont have photos of your kids eating
Ah, then the presumption as they will, never, they probably macrian cheese on that day, you're, not photographing them in front of the craft box. Probably I another steady idea was with long time school nurses, because I thought that they would have a window into one
going on in families that was very dear friend, then the wreck drew kind of report about your child, so teachers are inhibited about being very candid with
parents, because the parents are already so raw and ready to be triggered and defensive border,
I'm paranoid. So I thought, if I talk to the school nurses of tell me what's really going on and they were so glad
I've somebody to talk to them because nobody had interviewed them in the past year and we talked about there's a concept called food orthe erects here who uses you ve got me, aroused orthodoxy open
it is, in the broadest sense, substituting organised religion or other kinds of spirituality for food correctness, food that makes a lot of sense and
and proper food in.
so what the nurses said and as the responsible clinical psychologist and personally
field of health. I want to say at the right before I say this that there
very many more food allergies than they have ever been in the past. Yes, and we can talk about big, a grand big pharma and
all the reasons that this is genuinely happening. At the same time, parents are displacing there
fear earth about a number of things. Why
it is most of them are older than their parents were when they had gets yeah, so they feel their own
How do you little men as they are at the same time, watching the planet kind of ailing
feeling they have no control over that, so
So and then we have an answer.
The real economy and very surprising
things going on in the leadership of this country, so what parents do
is take all of these fears that they have no control over, and
focusing on one thing, which is their child happiness: the purity of their child diet, the quorum
but he of their child friends. So we have a lot of parents talking to administrators at school.
All. I'm saying it's not my child, whose problem it's this other child, that's a bad influence on her or him, and please,
do not offer that child array enrollment contract next year in private schools or public schools, throw the bomb out right now,
and what the nurses sand is that they have very small children who can be really read: trying
to read the labels so that they want the wrong thing and my how favouring
Ample was a school where it
every year at holiday time? They had made gingerbread men and decorated them and they had to
switch and again my caviar here is their kids with
technologies in Syria, unseen and Edward and peanut allergies for sure they
it no longer make gingerbread men, they cut out the supermarket
Banks are better similar collar instead of decorating them with candy, they decorate them with glitter and sparkle. Everybody has to do that now. The whole class- numerous
yeah. No, even as you say this, I am both judge mental and credit
I love those folks and very guilty of it and it was really
funny, and interesting is my wife and I have different things were obsessed with she's
currently out of town. So I have both girls by myself, which means we're eating a lot of hamburgers and savory food, which would not normally probably be in the diet.
But my we're safe, reefer, thicket, savory foods, salty really say I am what's funny. Is I dont have any kind of
you're about that stuff, but I am psychotic about sugar. I
kids poison, and I just watch their behaviour and I go oh well. I put this in their body and olives, they are they evident personality and that it
Is the high they don't need again on prior bringing all my own baggage of me in recovering adding to it my own experience with feeling better, not eating sugar? So you know
You haven't myself. I go here's this thing that they just women
I mean better without and then I can do it
I saw myself going down a neurotic path with it and I had it.
Data myself, you know what they're gonna go to birthday parties dog needed at school at birthdays and anxious gonna, be then that's part of being a kid, but again
choirs, meme, policing, myself, it's very interesting about humans? Is we succumb quite easily to guilt in in repenting and all these feelings that we need to
go can do something miserable to pay for whatever our indiscretions are right. It's this kind of human.
Thing we share and whether you do it on Sunday at a religion or you quit something for land or year. You know you, you could tell me what happens in jewish households, but
this is all these kind of ritual eyes things we do to weirdly repent right in and if you're, not you, if you don't have an outlet for that, may be this food thing. Is it feels right right like a year, this stuff doesn't taste very good, but it's the right thing to do with what? What is it you think about this, this religious who, by the way, I'm an ex very outspoken atheist, saw not purporting that you should join Nuno Scientology tomorrow to fill this whole, but what what what things happening, but it is
Why people doing Scientology to fill the whole, why people followed our goin through? We were obsessed with the model. That is why the whole thing I will gladly wise- and this is what happened to documentary film-
There are over there. I was so captivating and-
remaining instead of just polemics.
Or an sort of that's good to know all that,
information yeahs, what a relief it is to be able to give up exactly what you're talking about this very complex over thinking about pleasure,
and self control and freedom and meaning and purpose, and a sense of
didn't see to a.
This case, a kind of mysterious and dark turns out the Baldwin.
The bog one yeah. I love how you say. I think you cheating really correctly longer deadlines
another incited rubbed you but yeah, crushing that you watch anything came down
get that and the other part that goes back to what you are saying is that it was sanctified wild unfettered sexuality here. So you got both you
I too feel a community which people and this is wired into the organism. We want to be part of a community with a purpose, and so they had a utopian vision
actually the whole United States would become members. Have this called
and we would have we would have
Marie written constitution, of goodness delight purity and togetherness. So that's very appealing now a special.
And this is the problem of this moment- you mentioned before things happening with clean up-
I so hesitated to write a book called voice lessons for parents. What to say
I have to say, and then went to listen because I thought parents do not needs somebody once
more telling them priests,
slim little tiny detail just what to do and what not to do, because there are already nerve,
enough they already don't have enough confidence yeah, but looking at what's happened with technology are preoccupied. We are with doing everything right to and how quickly everything is changing. I wanted to find a way to preserve the matter of time.
Yeah. So I'm just took a glance at the picture frame. Your daughter made it and thought you can't buy a picture frame
as high all that, as that as regards you can't see, although I do think there in the photos on the website you're my daughter, Mady up at your frame, that is a legit.
They have anything but symmetrical.
No, it's a symmetrical. Why it is the ocean,
is light. It reflects light. It has
The freedom and spontaneity of the children
bring to us that we need so badly yeah
more arm chairs experts. If you dare this episode of Arms-
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There are so many paradoxical things about being here:
so there is there's these two conflicting things. We were
to preserve and one is. We are eventually get it.
Join us society at large that has norms and rules and goes by a clock. It requires all of us to participate in a way to make it function right. So that's one
truth that exists, and yet we have this little window where we kind of dont have to have it yet were trying to prepare our kids for that that world there eventually get Joel.
And for me I'm always battling to my head. Ok, I want to support what they just have, naturally with their disport with all this stuff than a member of you know the not obsessing about the environment say or whatever the politicians
so. I have one one sided me that same protect this. Let them run with this while they can
and then I have another side of me that same well. They
are going to end up getting a job with a boss, that's gonna be an asshole, and that is life, and so
there's gonna be rules that you regularly follow that you disagree with that. Make no sense, and that is what life on planet earth is like. So it is
really hard to navigate how much of each cut your filling up and
now we ve added one more ingredient in the cap, which is the children, should be happy all the time and have very high self esteem,
that we imagine they can a wire if
We send out an email blast or post on facebook- oh my god, she breathed in then
he breathed out mare, so we're just giving them trophies and saying tat, awe and praising them so much that it actually in habits them from trying things there not net
truly good, add more that are new to them right. So that's a paradoxical aspect of it as well:
I just have an article in the times right now, so it's called. Who is a good boy about how we speak so much more sweetly and gently and affectionately toward dogs than to our young son?
Yeah walkers through that, so you start off with an analogy that you ve been on a car along car right with a dog
What do you do when you get out of that car with the dog? Yes said, the dog is grumble barking
you open the door and then you are not surprised if the dog runs in circles are even nipped. Somebody a little bit too. The reason babies looks so in relatively beautiful
is that no one will do what we have to do to keep them alive if they didn't look like that,
right right. If they heard the cutest things on the planet, we won't kill ourselves to keep him alive and its true for all animals.
This is certainly all mammals, great big eyes round cheeks that might not be so great and look at Youtube. There's nothing
darling little animals. So then they get
ill personalities and preferences and more eridu bowl, but less completely one hundred per cent adorable,
and Iraq goes, give way to act me exactly one from little body to junior statesmen right.
Kip adolescence, which now terrifies parents,
and I warrant kids, just as you said about the first boss. You'll, have I want them to
Have a crabby, unenlightened uninspired. Fourth grade teacher MRS House Farming, because some day a day-
I'm going to have a crabby unenlightened uninspired bar. That's right and you need the tools right.
How to learn these tools, you need to learn to code switch, so key, Peele's sketch comedy video called the phone call, is my favorite example of code switching and that I've ever seen in all of art, because what kids have to do when they go to school, the whole day,
speak the lexicon use the body language where their proper flowers to please the teachers, the popular group that they're trying to join.
Which mostly they warrant cause it's very narrow and pointed at the top, which is great because we don't care, threaten popular group but they're following all different sets of rules and they come home and their exhausted
from code switching and they kind of melt down with their parents. Most children are worst with their moms and then, if the mothers ticket purse
we are again see that snapshot as the epic movie em they're child's life they're, going to feel one they're not going doing a good job and that they have to correct everything. Dad does if it doesn't follow exactly the ideology that mom has
her head at that moment, which will change tomorrow, which I shall read another parenting but yeah, but you just touch on some just one. You did as an expert tell me
if I'm right or wrong here or if I need a broad, my opinion of this. So yes, the kid will generally give it to mom right this.
This to me seems to be a little bit of a self perpetuating circle which they tell
on that because, as you say, mom is generally more affected by right, sir,
My daughter will say to me: I don't like you
Ok, I like you, though, for whatever reason
It's just my y chromosome or whatever it is. That doesn't bother me right, but my wife will say well that hurts
I feelings when you say bite, but so runner, the gates. If you want
a good long interaction in your picking between the two parents. You go to mark as you guys organ
patch it out now about saying I don't like you write in so it is interesting that they are the recipient of that, but I think it's not accidental that there were the recipient of that. There is going to be more attention.
Into that from her than there is from me. I won't even speak for every other couple. The corpus close and that connects the right and left hemisphere of the brain is thicker in women. Ok, there
or in every situation women are using both sides of their brain
in receiving information and responding to information, so it it's for come
lax in some rise. We got my lead to either
Better compromises as well right is mentally you're, doing more compromising between your left and right brain, and I say this to audiences in a light hearted way. But most men are somewhere
on the spectrum sure surface area, most women have some degree of borderline.
Personality disorder and bipolar, too, and then a whit segment of parents that we're talking about everybody has narcissistic personality disorder is great. This is all good. It's good combo! I love what
tat. Your daughter cause it's five words long na.
How can we talk to kids
so much because we're trying to be cheap
public relations firms,
to just convince them that they're going to love camp and love fourth grade and love there
Teacher and hang out with this one, but don't hang out with that one.
I think she's gonna be gateway drug friend, even though your only in third grade, and so were chest we're trying to to forecast
and smooth the road
every rough patch every bump, both for the child even gets there
and then we do this raising. So that's childhood
Then we send them far away
Oh yeah yeah colleague, so
what I always say appearances. I want your child to be a councillor at a slip away camp, because each guaranteed that one of their campers will throw
up and your child will have to clean it up there. The counselor and that prepares them for coal
where there is a huge amount of throwing. The sea has vomit. Vomiting is ubiquitous us, but it is
You just hear talk about polar ends of the spectrum, because private mocked, the wildest crazies little section of your life, is column,
Write your experimental imply the most sexually. Hopefully, you'll do, and it yet
real black and white transition from having apparent around or to parents around kind of, as you say, smoothing out all the the bumps and then it just a free for all. I want is just ask you globally, because much. Let me just point this out and because it feels like it's in keeping with something I heard Doktor drew say one time which is because kids are an extension of your ego and you yourself are trying to always avoid.
Comfort and pain and where what happens, if you solve all these problems for your kids ass, they grow up and try to mitigate every single source of discomfort. When you, then let
and leave your house. They haven't, acquired a single coping mechanism for dealing with pain, rejection loss, all these things
and so a really great alternative when they leave your house is men, so is an opium it is. It is a drug because it is it
overwhelming. If you deny them the chance to go through heartache, heartbreak, skinny right. What
are. They too have in their toolbox to deal with all the inevitable heartbreak. That comes our way once we're adults, if you don't have anything to combat that with all these drugs seem like a really great alternative and
are they were alive, alternative
what I see all the time is both parents and kids.
Using both listen, I'm illicit drugs and outside of all blended together, you can get anything from anywhere as a way to flip the switch.
From the full range of human emotions to the one you feel like feeling at that moment. Yeah. So you can pick the emotional state you'd, like
then find the drug and we're not now talking about tolerance, dependence and addiction, because that's another whole set of complicated
steps that people find them where a web people find themselves caught him. Yes, but.
Along with everything, moving so quickly is the idea that we should be able to rid ourselves of distress. Disappointment frustrate
heart ache longing, and these are some of the richest human experience is. If you can figure out ways, there are not quite as quick, not quite insufficient. Definitely less dangerous for their the work around for your own,
personal triggers and vulnerabilities. So, for some people that is the forest bathing, it is nature
packing and want to take the kids backpacking and for other people, its exercise, taking a walk, exercise, music, sober rating,
I think the source of our long live. Our great art is probably from clinical depression or a break up or of a death in the family. Are all these tragic things that somehow mental more for size not
or evolve into something really outstandingly beautiful, right, metamorphosed
How is that there will be no art there would be.
Now, art with out pain and ecstasy. That is created by the courage to be an uncomfortable situations, which means to travel to be in nature to use all five senses in the three dimensional world to push yourself
being a social situation that might make you uncomfortable it is. Life is sort of bread, dread, dread, joy, yeah, you're, being realistic about the proportions yeah,
yes and the joy is then such
from men. This relief from the natural
dread and the dread is healthy. The forum
Sitting in this room would not be here if we had not one than natural selection, competition and part part of our superpower in getting through it and never bodies. Listening to this also did
as well. Here is that we were anxious because we were on the savanna. Why?
during about whether that sound in the bushes was lion who is going to eat us. That's right. The people who
I'm worried at all. Did it make it didn't make it, and then chemically too
When your brain, because the stakes are that much higher for you to be aware of a lion in your presence verses, you ate a strawberry and it was delicious. Remember this bush, those chemicals that we deal with the good ones being oxytocin right. That says: oh good job or that's your love chemical. That has a strength
the negative ones so adrenaline court as all the
chemicals, have a disproportionately strong feeling in our brain, because it is more important. We learn to avoid a tiger than is remember a strawberry bushes that accurate to say it is beautifully play and the way we get rid of the deceased
Rest of the court is all or the depletion of serotonin is seeking a dopamine hit. Yes, so that what we have become.
Custom to doing the more you artificially provide your brain with lots of flooding it with dopamine. It has ok, fine good deal I'll, stop making
myself and dumb the interest it gives it to go back for a minute.
To what you were saying about this notion of how we should feel right, which is dangerous. Now I am very pro
psychiatry. I am pro mood stabilizers, I'm pro all these things so
start by saying that, but I will also introduced the danger of of all these drugs, which is cycle,
Interests and again, I'm I'm out on a limb here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but that the psychiatrist, the premier,
the day rely on something called the DSM right, and this is a this is.
Standardized task that you can it's now to test the
ideas in this text is a text DSM. Five is to avoid this right is produced by the Americans. Had yet
association and it's a manual of mental disorders. Ok right!
it basically lists, though it might well ass apple. I was over the history of it. If I not right, I don't even know
This may be the fifties. There was some english guy who is very critical of the way we were diagnosing people in America, so heat as an expert
he had five people go into different psychiatric wards all around the country, and they said the only thing you're allowed to say that's a lie. Is I hear a thud in my head? I hear a thud and then he saw what the results were after they said. I
your thought in my mind, had they had then start telling
truth and there is a wide range of diagnoses based on their rights ranging from
You know it's a frantic above all by and it was very critical and it was.
Uproar in the psychiatric world and in academia, and so they said, we need a standardized criteria for these mental disorders rife in
through trying to standardize this. What what inadvertently happened is that we came up with what normal is right. This wasn't the intended consequences DSM, but one of the consequences is we have what we think is a baseline of being normal mentally, which is a little bit of a dangerous thought. Is it or is it not? It's a very dangerous thought and a good intentions lass an
best example is the debate over grief thousand or so, and the written them way were accurate before about it being a test
is. Do you have five out of these symptom right? Because if you have five of them, then your insurance come? Then you get this diagnosis. The insurance company will pay for your treatment, so it's complicated set of
economic and political forces.
We again all men well intentioned all of this. Sometimes we have with the best version of it. We can have at this moment, but it can get.
Probably the DSM is working hard to keep up with enlightened definitions of healthy human individuality. Aha,
their slow right, and so the reason I picked grief is if we are hatch numbers two to how many months is it healthy and acceptable for a person to Korea,
If the loss of a loved one, for example and wind, is it become defined
and, as psychopath forward,
b or some form of depression and there for you, get to have
a diagnosis that again, as I said before, the insurance companies will
a four and you can get your medication covered right, yeah, so that's very tricky tricks and of course it brings out a lot of critics right and in a lot of proponents- and I think
I would urge people who are critical and it is easy to point out these outliers and certainly met someone who's brought over medicated or kid that may be was medicated, should ban Bob loss, but I would argue it's a big mistake to focus on that as opposed to the
the huge grounds that have been made itself. I would be optimistic. That's all I would say, as I would urge people to be optimistic, that we are learning things at a pretty great rate. Now, indeed,
is that stuff exciting for you to see kind of the scientific backing so exciting, and it's really easy to have a kind of gauzy sentimentality about past, about definitions,
of appropriate male behaviour. Female behaviour, ah kids, to just need whack across the face when I entered the feel we had. One diagnosis, basically wit for kids, which was a pervasive developmental disorder, and we had to
drugs, Ritalin and Thorazine, and that we would give Thorazine to six year old kids, who were a little bit restless right right. It was really scary. I worked at a hospital and if a fourteen year old
all the while drawing kind of gloomy. If, if beautifully artistic pictures, we could lock them upon the impatient in it.
Foreign and limited length of time
turns company would pay for that really
What we know now, besides this very broad,
odd, and several range of medication for kids is all about
styles and learning differences.
So we ve made tremendous progress, but as with so much else in our cultural right now there
is a kind of sensation. Lized paranoia coming from the news media. There was just an article
the other day in the times saying basically antidepressant. You can never get off them. If you start them and eight dead drug companies decided to call it discontinuation
syndrome, Kai instead of withdrawal right yeah, because there was no money cuts in federal funding and the drug companies didn't want to pay to daddy what happened when people stop taking assess our eyes right. That's true! Every single bit of that is true, but it doesn't apply in every case. It's to grab your eyeballs, yes, spam
dammit now, as we ve lost nuance right, so everything has to be binary. Everything s black and White S, sir. I inhibitors have to be the terrible or lifesaver
How many human beings have you met in your life and how many varieties of mental states have you seen? That's how many different varieties of outcomes you could have with these different medicines resist the urge to try to levy a verdict on these things right like there. There is a lot of area. Ah in this,
all of these different things in it's scary, right as the stakes are so high if you're talking about medicating your child, but I can't imagine a harder decision for me to make as apparent one of the things I sometimes ask audiences is how many of you, because a lot of parents specially dad's, get diagnosed with
Why flung Abd that they had no idea they had when their son gets diagnosed
I used to do psychological testing long ago, but for years- and I would diagnose the child live-
child did have a dvd and the mom would immediately start ill Boeing. Let down who I mean it and all explains king who was interested in what a lot
a lot of dads of also discovered there on the spectrum by going through that has seen process with their child right. There is amazing vanity, fair story about a guy who, which ended up trading credit default swaps. I think he was in the movie on the big show
and he had no idea, but this thing about he being on the spectrum allowed him to
the interest in reading all these investment documents, these loan bundles that no one would read but him and he became a billion,
because of this is where the new wants comes, and this is where it gets scary wreck as it is. It is attempting question to ask: while what are the results of labeling peoples
If there is no label in your just for in this case, the
I am the Vanity fair article
the glass eye he was. He was born with some I issue so his whole life, he explained his discount
for in social interactions is all I have this fucking glass eye and that's. Why can't stay in talking to people write in it? Wasn't until he had a son Regos? Oh my god, it wasn't the glass. I I'm on the spectrum that explained so much disk
It was also a neurosurgeon before he became an investment banker, so woody
had he been labelled and fourth greatest autistic. Would you have done all those things and that's a scary question to ask: what do you think about labels, and that goes back to the wife whose elbowing her husband, because that husband figure it out both workarounds and ways to make this an instead of calling it a disability? There's this set of trade right and fine
the way to express them in the world. My concern and I had a conversation with a mom about this yesterday, about she was trying to figure out where her child should go to
secondary school and someone had said to her. Don't send him to that school because that's cool doesn't have a program that best matches his talents and she said to herself. That would probably be really good for him. He might broaden himself. Then we are trying to predict how our children are going to be out dancing exceptional superstars right.
When their war gotta figure that out the thing they're they're, Michael Jordan, nap them exactly because Heaven forbid they're, just Scotty Pitman at something that will be unacceptable, and then you don't
how to all they're going to grow. You just don't know, I mean effect, incur also urge him ness and then it turns out not gonna, be the right thing for their shape, I'm turning into yeah, and then we have the body, shaming culture, and this is a perfectly fine and wonderful girl who hasn't figured out yet who she's going to be parents can look at that with wonder instead of with panic react also, I think, were victims of
to some degree again. Disclaimer, I think we live in the best economic system imaginable. I do think of free market is the best way to have you no explosions in science and health and all these things, but it comes with a cost, and that cost is. We have to be the best at something right. That is
the sign of success in this. Our society is that you come up with the idea that Facebook, you do something that so exceptional exceptional, exceptional, exceptional individual. We know ever think that a huge success would be for our children to grow up and find a community that they get pleasure out of interaction in in in right. We don't think that's all got if they could find and punish if they could just find their group of twenty friends. They have dinner parties with on Sunday. That is Michael Jordan in that is Michael, Jordan. Right. If we study
the boy measure what makes them happy we find that it's not their job position. Ultimately, right or their bank account it's how engage they are in their community. It's how much they help. Others aren't these, these being the real indicators of what makes people happy. So we also in some ways act as though the normal curve has tied and children are either.
Exceptional or failing nobody's in nominal or rights, and everything has to be curated and choreographed, and those twenty people that are your community better, be thou right. Twenty people to day I hope
ah well. The other part is now I always say to parents. I want your middle school age daughter to have a really slutty shallow best friend
You couldn't is rise in its life and they work so hard you're, taking a p classes already in tenth grade
so at least there is some liveliness. The interesting things to talk about rights we want is a sign that we got a doctor to say that I am pleased that a law be Elmo form it up, but you bid you just dumb
keep circling around this one thing in you think of it in terms of children and parenting, but I think it's very much a live in America issue, as you pointed out in a talker heard.
Give you hear the story of the pedophile that lives in a neighbourhood or their the the rapist right, and so your fear level in your motivation to protect her kid from that is very natural is, of course you you get this very sharp pang of. I have to prevent that. Of course, nothing. I can't imagine something worse than MIKE had been
victim of that. How do we living in an era where we have an hourly new cycle or a ten minute new cycle powder? We balance stain, informed and protecting our mental health, knowing that these things are very improbable,
right? The likelihood of any of these things happening, or so my new? It's like worried about your kid getting hit by lightning.
But the messaging so strong in your brain. So how does one balance that I find myself trying to figure out like
yeah, okay, I just like the president, but I'm going to dislike him for the next three years. I don't need to check in every ten minutes to reconfirm an opinion. I already have you. I have to have to really be thoughtful about what I'm taking
because I know I'm out matched in my brain at just how I've evolved in, and I note my chemistry is- and I can't compete with those negative chemicals. So what should we do? The indignation is very invigorating and we're tired we're tired because of the complexity of the life we live of. The IMF
information. That's coming at us all the time how wildly exaggerated it is. I used to work with little kids and then, after I decided that had enough of that, I had parents, bring me pictures of their children and put it in the file, and now they just
turn their phone around and show me here and this door you're talking about is there were
seven and nine year old, who had friends who lived around the corner and the parent, wouldn't let them go on their own around the corner and lovely neighbourhood
to go visit, their friends and so psychotherapy is always peeling away the onion, and I wouldn't let it go to try to find out. Why and the mother finally said Doktor Mobile. I have to tell you the reason there are some painters working at house between our house and the friends house so because, if that egg, just I can't I can't- and I said to her- I have seen pictures of your children. You showed me there
not that cute, don't how did my name
I had a serious violence with I haven't. I
You say that to them, because the likelihood of a child being snatch by an abductor is exactly, as you said, like lightning just about zero and kids do get taken much more often in contested child custody cases right, and that is also rare,
if we don't teach them didn't joy of way
Being on their own there's a wonderful nor-
we didn't tile development specialist named Ellen Sand sever. Is she wrote a paper called the anti phobic effects of thrilling experience, and she says kids must be exposed to great heights to fire, to dangerous tools to physical
emotional aggression and to finding their way and almost getting lost in figuring out how to do it. You get get where their growing
because otherwise they are going to get very fearful the article I just road was about
this wave of phobias in boys ages. Six
eleven that I have never seen in thirty five years of my practice real at the boy. These little boys are terrified, it is their creative imagination, their great physical energy and their spirit turned against themselves,
because they have so little freedom, yet he gets it easy mistake to make as apparent that you think. If I tell you, if I tell the kid you can overcome anything, you can rise to anything. You can be anything telling your kid that they can do that, won't actually still that feeling right. The kid has to actually do so
those things. Isn't that how a kid learns that they are capable is by doing something not being told their capable. If you say that to your account, you can do anything. They are quickly.
The urine, unreliable, TWI, rival and discredited,
witness. Incidentally, it reminds me of what I call the brag plainer appearance. This happens a lot in high school, so this is
he olivias my oars,
Sophie's mom. Who will
say things like we don't know how she does it.
It's just amazing she's up in the morning
for we are even though she's gone to sleep long after we ve gone to bed pushes always studying, and she made chocolate chip pancakes for
nobody in the family and already walked the dog, and we don't know
you are aware, but she has started
the NGO for women who want an open small businesses in Colombia and that woman doesn't even speak. Spanish only got word sure, she's lie and making you feel like crap
and then you look at your, don't be normal, very wonderful daughter, and she doesn't look like she compares to that daughter. So its constant talking yourself in two
and spreading the word about
how well your family is doing, and this is a very basic twelve that principle,
we are comparing our insides with everybody else's outsides. Yes,
and also where expecting that these external things will impact, how we feel internally right that it's an inside job basically, and we think that we can do it externally, but it rarely can works that way and the sand part for kins. Is they get wedged into the most competitive school they can be in? Ah, they arts dropped in car seats and driven to extracurricular
earth and in Richmond I think of them. Sort of like parole leaves with ankle bracelets or an supermax.
Ours is the ones in families have money, but they have so little freedom and so little choice and end. You made the point before that so important. They also have to get civilized. So when the parents come to me with the anxious sons, little son
who were really go back, and I know these kids are not mentally ill. This is not a highly disturbed family. The first question I always ask them is: if there are some flushes, the toilet after he books, because they bother heads in shame and they say
not so often really, yes later and later, they also don't white thrown bottoms really so that yet this is a distinct trend.
Of children being a bead end, cater to about very ordinary stuff, and I say to the parents: he can't pay the mortgage or the rent he can't drive. There are so many things that you can do that he can't do. He can wipe it, but he complexes toilet yeah because it really gross to walk into the bathroom India and find that old book there. Yes and he is not developing a sense of families, citizenship. It is my job in this family,
to keep the path clearer as much as I can of gross stuff or things that people will trip over. So that means leaving your shoes in a public place in housing, your space, it's ours, it is our space and we all work to help each other get through the day, with the tools that we have acquired by the aid
we are yeah. Now I'm sitting here, trying to impress you without smart. I am them you're doing a lot of really good try putting a lot of effort into, and I'm gonna try to shift in be vulnerable and say some things that I might be wrong about as wrong in it. Give you some scenarios which, on the fence about.
This is a kind of a m, a controversial approach. I have, I have a hunch, I'm doing the wrong, so I feel like I can clearly discern different types of crime in tantrums right. If you hurt your leg, you're gettin, as many Hudson cases is unique.
Get Nabu Bunny blah. If your sister hurt your feelings. Let's talk about that. If you're gonna start crying at the dinner table cause you didn't get ice cream,
My policy is, I'm not telling you that you can't feel this way, Europe you're absolutely
How can you feel this way as long as you want, but you're not gonna, ruin this whole experience at the dinner table with
so. You can go into your room and cry for awhile and you feel better about income back, and I I think I think I've said that I love maybe on tv or something and got them
Push back that I shouldn't send my kids, the room, other crime. If I didn't believe in gold stars, I would put one on your part. So what were teaching children to do is to use their voice as a weapon, and it's a really tricky time in history, a back discipline, because the kids will say to the parents. You keep this up.
Calling child preventative, sir, while they do why and again, I'm going to stand on the side I was standing before when I said all we had was Thorazine and Ritalin didn't know anything about learning differences. I am absolutely not in favour of any kind of
because if you wait a minute, your kids to children, but because we can't hit our kids right, we have there.
These few last? Yes to teach them and everybody
just wants to only is positive reinforcement and it really depends on the temperament of the child and on the ten percent of the parents. So I always want to know the context, and you mentioned how context less we are now, if you're exhausted from your day from worry or overwork Donald, when a caught, the brilliant british psychoanalyst talks about the manic defence against despair. Ok, which is we keep our son,
Super busy, so we won't feel any down motion of any of the emotions accept a little bit of fatigue made. Ah sir
Are you so ear double that a cranky child at the table is causing you two saying get to your room in a tone
indicates to her and I sort of never want to see your face again. Then don't love you any more, and I wish I had imagined
are you were spent?
I'm doing to a tool she has learned to use to get whatever she wants.
Again because you're too tired to follow through willing to surrender survey.
You're an icy parents, doing it all the time cause it's easier. Will again. I think what but people may be didn't understand when they heard me say that is yeah. I didn't ya. I dont yell at them
so getting your room. I just say: hey were enjoying dinner in your Rooney net, though I don't enjoy being that.
Nor while someone screaming and we're all here- and it's not ok for you to ruin for people's good time, because you on ice for himself go sort that out come back when you want to have a good time with us. You know people are critical of ECHO's David, they think you're trigger
abandonment stuff, I have a hard time buying into that. I know the difference between abandonment, unconditional love and boundaries and rules that you can't we navigate that we can definitely have conditions
like yeah there. We go and
like what you don't want to do is get to begin low bull. So if you say to a very
child you're ruining for people's dinner and sort of ruining their lies, you're making her too,
men, Dustily powerful, will focus on the behaviour in a very concrete, simple way, Kitty really do
Ok, I meet these really get a highly gifted they're, all highly gifted it's a miracle. I mean about the normal curve dying, highly gifted and learning
a bolder. Every single trial now has both of those
lungs said they need
They need extended time on tests. They need lots of testing to find that out legitimize Ed.
Education and the special school and the best fourth grade teacher anybody ever had. But back to the table, you can say that sound her screaming is it's hard on my ears and we're having a conversation,
You need to go to your room and we look forward to you coming back and join us and what I just said was too long. So I'd like that sentence, you said,
before that was, I think, five words yeah five words. We talk too much to these kids we're trying to reach consensus with them.
And we are creating little attorneys by that time. Therefore, years old girls, not boys, because their language
looks later. Girls are better attorneys than you will ever be, even if you're on the Supreme Court. Ah, so you don't have to reach consensus all the time, don't you think? That's just
our own co dependency like what we really want. Is we don't want to ever be a jerk? We just warmed like us all the time in August and tell us that they love us if we actually think we're.
No makes such a compelling argument to them. They're gonna see it our way and be thankful that we ve corrected their behavior it. That is six scary collusion as though the child is going the four year old, whose making the loud noise is going to slap her cheek and say: oh Father. Thank you so much for enlightening me on this terribly important topic.
About dinner table ethical, I did not realise until you brought to my attention. How can I ever show my gratitude in full,
blown form yeah. We deserve yeah well wholly one five one tree right, yeah
We we don't. We did the thought of them. Being angry at us is very unsaddling. You know we just want them done nor us at all times, and that goes back to put your thing before about this being very good, an exciting time. Families are really close and there's a kind of friendship in family,
is that a lot of us didn't experience in our own families, and I see a lot of families where everybody likes the same music.
And they say together or the same, shows in the same books? And it's a beautiful thing. The risk of it is there's no individuation and we all think we have to be happy all the time, love each other, all the time,
and the children in particular. I should never be injured by a parental misstep. If you don't make mistakes in raising or children, then your son,
I know I am put any yes who got snuck into your house by a drone yeah
and then shame we, we just we veer into a quite quickly. Don't we is a species? Don't we we wee succumb to shame,
pretty easily, I assume more and then are ever more light than ever be cause. And again this is the competitive news portals snark.
Has become such a common mode,
assessing everything that the item
reaction to that is defensiveness, shame or denial, so we'll battered by these,
feelings about wondering whether we are good enough parents good enough. We don't worry quite as much as I would like about being good enough space.
Says that sort of fallen very low yeah? I know
agenda of character and success, and
the killer? Emotion there instead of shame, is contempt. Yeah, correcting, there's a lot of correcting other parent in relation to the harm their doing to the children.
Or their grandparents had a whole chapter in the book about lived, the grandparents do whatever they want: yeah
we remind the sugar. I was at the airport
and there was a man talking to a couple he didn't know, which is already amazing.
Right time. Nobody was looking at their screens and the couple
were on their way to fly to take care of their grandchildren for the weekend for the first time
and he had done this lots of times and he said I'm going to tell you the secret when you get there or your daughter is going to hand you a list, and the list is going to tell you exactly what the children should eat.
Eat what time they should be in delta, wave sleep by and water and who they are allowed to play with and not play within the neighbourhood, and he said, look at that list really really seriously really closely asked.
Some questions clarification about how so less and now
Andrew had allowed possibly put your hands and prayer position, they Namaste and then the minute the parents pull out of
driveway in the Neuber. He said just tear it right up, throw it in the garbage and do what you write.
Grandparents and grandchildren have a wonderful relationship because they have a common enemy, though right mama there that's right, re yeah, don't
I them now. Don't deny either party that delightful pleasure is, as you say,
I have to remember that probably the highlight of my childhood was going to pop above and grandmas in Livonia Michigan for the summer and I ate as many ding dongs is, my body could consume and I got macaroni and cheese everyday for lunch. I would have died.
If I lived, there always arise right, but I could make it through.
The summer sessions and they as used there. The highlight of my
childhood. In my relationship with my Papa Bob was just couldn't have been closer, I mean talk about a guy. I just wanted to be so bad. You know looked up to and it was such a special relationship. I can't imagine how much less rich my life would be with
the whole thing, wasn't just the din nuns and the macaroni known also talk about what happened in Livonia Mesh again with Papa Bob that was so much fun or inspiring, or you think of now, as a guide post in your life, it was different than home. Oh, it was because of the things you did there and the way they treated you
yes, and I think you know if I really boiled down it's, that I had a single mother with three kids who work to job, so I went to this place where they chose to have me I've they were excited to have me. I was the focus of their total. Attention is not just that they cater to my every need was that they were interested in what it was. I wanted. What would make me happy issues of this really nurturing? It was self
fun to be the focus of the attention to that degree, you're, making a really important distinction between what parents fear, but kind of do, which is and be a child feeling cherished and being with adults who are enchanted by their enchantment and that's what your grandpa
its were right and that feeling- and you wouldn't want it all the time we I would, if I wouldn't ever worked,
You would have never worked and it wouldn't be special yeah, but it was so specific and something you are craving. Yeah and all children do crave being cherish Vienna way and even though we in reach their lives
and we are so careful and fingering the menu of their activity
he's in their emotions that enchantment with their enchantment, and I suspect your grandparents did not make a whole bunch of judgment about the weather. The things you were interested in were going to give you a set of skill.
For your adulthood that we're going to lead you straight to the top, whether they thought it or not. I thought they.
Thought I was on the exact right path. What do you know
it seemed the egg. They were just totally optimistic about who I was gonna, be you now, as my grandmother particular she was. She was at hand
three teacher and a science teacher double major us, a woman that group and the third easy now so she loved education. She loved that. I love dinosaurs. She'd, sit there forever with me with the book in the yacht was very, very special and dumb yeah pray. Every kid has that that little
in and again yet comes with some compromise. So I dont have the same ideology
he is my children's grandparents back
and dumb in that that's been a challenge for me. You know ledges your history really quick as that you grew up. If, if the internet is correct, your group in a secular jewish household, is accurate, so jewish traditions, but not a belief that your way was necessarily at the centre of an all out. My father was the publisher of the national anthem. Ok, so I would not say jewish progression.
Ok accepted. He by himself went to synagogue on holidays every year. Ok, so he grew up in an orthodox family and brightened reach, Brooklyn, ok and then so you grew up, not God fearing personal note, I would say: ok, but but a lot of blessings of Askin me call on some jewish traditions.
Does that book is a child rearing guide an it's an introduction to lots of jewish teachings and principles right,
so my brother, converted Judaism, when I was probably twenty three.
And the old was he he was twenty eight and it works
I think there are a lot of motivations one is he always had a man unexplained affinity for Judaism? My father had a lot of jewish girlfriends. He worst our David it as a kid
his children rather on earth. My older brother yeah and his kids went to J C C, like preschool at the jewish community centre. A lot of his neighbors were jewish. His wife, also not jewish they decided to convert
so we would join them for like baby naming ceremony right, different holidays and down again, it's probably all my baggage, if hating authority unjust, very adverse to religion on the very first any power structure of human
Bob locked. But I would go to these things my brother would host and I could see,
behind it? What was happening so when a bit?
These born right. You have a baby naming ceremony correct me if I'm wrong in a lot about this, but you would pick the first letter of like a grandparent say his name was Bob you'd name your kid. You could name with a b b Bernie or something or
but what happens in that ceremonies? You end up reminiscing a ton about Bob Grandpa and I quickly first,
This is ridiculous as religious thing Mama want and then I've just fine. Oh we're talking a lot about grandpa. This is what a great way to keep Grandpa relevant today, an da without that practice.
As you know, who's gonna be a self starter and just know to do that or is so. I can very much appreciate and respect the many different traditions that do serve a rope.
Like magic purpose. Tell me some of those principles set. I think about organise religion in its best sense as similar to compose music that somebody figured out something that works for human beings civilize their roughest edges show by the idea, so in the strictest sense. It is twenty four hours from sundown on Friday to send down on Saturday, where you don't drive, you dont use
any machines, you don't look at screens, you dont do work, you don't talk about work and you go to synagogue and everyone sings these.
Beautiful minor key melodies in hebrew- and you are with your community.
Right and you're, not working yeah man, defence against despair, always working, aha,
We won't have to think about anything else and we feel like we're. Moving ahead in keeping up
when my children were growing up and it started for us very much like your brother.
in many ways, like a person who was not raised, did you write when my kids were small? We started to have about dinners every single Friday night. I would make color from scratch, and I really good
tat. I could do three braids on top of each other. There, not hull house mouthed like their wonderful baking Brad, the kids friends would come. They had lots of non GM.
Friends who now know all the prayer
at issue back dinner- and
We would go around the table so once you liked the candles light the candles we did it in the name of anybody who needed a blessing, and that was
if the SAD News report right, whose sick, whose has been lost their job or who is going through a rough patch once the candles are lit you are required, deserve the Chaba traditions not to talk about work or troubling thing. So this is the script for the dinner table, conversation right and we would go around the table and everybody
We talk about what they were grateful for that weak and don't you also, I just get invited to a co workers. They did it work in. They had their kids and was really beautiful, nay, said knight of everyone. This is always said, but they said I'm sorry for anything. I did this week that her use that part of it. I have never heard
Ah, I really dont like at all around in kind of just said, I'm so sorry if I did anything this week that might have hurt your feelings or anything insists in nice. We take care
the slight every Friday gap. We didn't do it.
I've never seen it anywhere, but this is also something that every family can do, which is create traditions that give structure to the week and preserve and protect togetherness and the light. So at about dinner, you have better dinner than you had the rest of the week
We are all these candles than would lead for the people who need a blessing, you're singing songs, and this is the part of the brain. The amygdala is the seat of emotion,
and then the brain is very, very old, lizard brain part of the brain and the hippocampus which his memory
when you sing familiar melody. Is it triggers emotions, which is why people who are beginning Captain
enter a people who have Alzheimer's, sometimes who have not spoken in weeks. If you play the music that
was popular when they were young, they eat wakes up the brain awhile.
And they will respond in not only an alert and articulate way, but in a happy way so you're setting the template for that.
When you were singing these prayers and songs, which is why, when people go to another synagogue, Orison gotta get to new canter, which is this.
Leader and he brings the New south, which is the hebrew word for the melodies of the prayers that is different than the one you are familiar with. People are very
they upset blogger red, get rid of him or her or I'm switching synagogues to where they have in this house that I now it's quite beautiful. You know I get that sense of community from being in a day, and I had never really had prior to that, but I have to say there's something undeniable about sitting in the room. I do every Tuesday that I always think man. How do you get this? If you don't, if you haven't rectal foots books it now, I do think the thing that be
should I strive to find is a little community. We do share that space and that time, your all- and you said it- you light a candle. You make a certain meal. I think it's important for kids to learn that it's not going to happen on its own. You have to take little steps right. You have to do. You have to physically do things. You have to be an action to to to to shift gears in your brain. It's not just going to you're, not going to just be relaxed you're, not just going to be anything. You've got to take
steps. If the repetitive even better, you know if they start becomes muscle memory always sit down on Friday night, and we don't. We put that thing away right now it now, but now I can shift. I can enter another compartment in my life.
These little barriers that signify when you're entering a compartment there their valuable right to make it different from dinner Monday to Friday exactly and the prayers themselves and the structure of the meal covers quite a lot of territory. So one thing that happens is the blessing of the children and the parent puts their hand on the child's hand and says a prayer over the children, and it ends with and bring you peace
and it is such a special moment to be standing still. It you're, not hugging. You're not running around you're, not praising the child, the
Current is putting their hands on the child's head.
And calling them or another thing that happens is there's a prayer,
additionally that the husband says to the wife, which is a good wife who can find she is more precious than- and there are two different translations rubies or coral guy and what a wonderful thing for children
here I am so glad he descended and exit lasting. I wanna talk to you about is something that you touched on a minute ago, which is why we give almost zero instruction on how to be a spouse or partner right in something we read early on my wife and I that is very hard to do. Maybe one of the harder things we do, but I think also one of the best things is on your children. See you get a lot of fights, they don't see, resolve anything it generally parents fight in front of their kids. They both get mad. There's a separation either that night in bed. They work that out, they talk it through or they actually go behind closed doors, and they do so. Your kids never see the resolution and action. They only see how
two further in sight or to amplify. They don't see how to admit wrong. Take responsibility. Apologize net seems to me something will aid. It requires great vulnerability to do those things with your partner just on your own, and now you at an audience of too little monkeys, and it's that much harder. It's important for two reasons, one as they are going to have conflict with their friends, and we want too much.
More than what we tell them to do. The long, pious, boring lectures we give them all the time about how to live their whole lives there just watching us. They study everything and yes, there good attorneys, but the other thing they are spies, so they're watching this, and if they can hear things and it's hard not to make this hokey. But if you do it enough, it can become natural if they can hear one spouse say to the other. Let me see if I understand what you mean or tell me more about that. We get
in our separate camps- and we get really stuck there and that's where contempt and indignation really get in the way of communication. So they can hear us so respectful
eventually respect our personal point of view. They learn that skill in talking to friends. The other thing- and I believe in this so strongly is for apparent to say to the other parent. I hear what you're saying I need some time to think about
how I feel about that or how I want to react to that, I'm going to get back to you. This is what I want middle schoolers
to their friends who say, look it's going to be fine, your parents will never know we're going to have such a good time what's wrong with you, don't be so wimpy don't be so afraid of, and for that middle school or to be able to say. I need to think about this little bit. I'm not sure what my decision is, what a tool that and that takes a lot of confidence. This is one of the things that the kid said in the interviews: law, the middle and high school age, kids. They said, please listen to me without thinking up the next thing, you're going to say,
good luck yeah, but if they so long to be heard in marriages, that's where I see it happening least, and it's not so much that were nowhere- dolls where
Yes, and so we want to settle it right then, and were tired and our nerves afraid. So it turns into a battle and we're not talk at all a vocabulary or or a method by which to evaluate emotions that
I've never had that class in so yeah thing that happens a lot with my wife and I, as we start arguing
I now know again: this is after eleven years of having to apologize after lots arguments, and I just don't like to apologise on trying to get em off in the past of selfishness. But,
I know I have a feeling in my chest. I there's a physiological response. When we start talking afford is arguing about whose picking up, who that doesn't get triggered
we get into something where often my heart rates increasing my chest. His little type, I know who fear has been triggered, I'm afraid of something. I need ten minutes to go. Think about what fear this probably is cause again. I generally have about four fears I just cycle through there
We wanted the source of all my issues. Would people so I need to go sit in a room for ten minutes and really think this through and figure out which of these fears is being triggered. And then hopefully we can come back and just say when you said that I got scared. You were organism
leave me when she goes I'll, never leave you and the whole fucking things over and you know again takes it. Took me a ton of practice to be able to recognise on if I'm reacted strongly its generally, I'm afraid you know, probably five people tat. I talk to this weekend session, described exactly what you're talking about they would say. I would
say what did you feel like in your body at that moment, and they would say I had a terrible tension in my chair.
Someone in their stomachs. Sometimes within their chests, and the analogy
I often give is to the kind of sex education kids get in school, but no love education at all
the language of emotions and how the body signals ass, with extremely important information about. What's getting trick
heard and how we are turning from whatever adult age we are into two and and screaming.
At the table about warning, worried scream. I spent a good part of my day is the four year old ducks
Emily reminded us in
Eve uses word several times and I have an understanding of it. That could be incorrect, but I guess I got it from Malcolm Gladwell book Blink re talks about things lysine and how quickly your brain can kind of evaluate stuff much quicker than you think, talks about a psychiatrist or a psychologist who studies married couples. Any with film them- and you had found them for an hour and he could tell he could predict with ninety something percentage rate, whether they would divorce after watching the whole tape. But if he only watch fifteen minutes, he could predict in the eighties and even after watching people communicate for five
minutes. He could predict like seventy eight percent, whether or not they would stay together or not in the defining thing he looked for was content. This is a word you keep using. If, if he watches to people
the Scots something we note to people in a partnership if they want they discuss something, that's hard for them to talk about general, triggering generally
if one of the partners are rolling their eyes at the other person? That's contempt?
as I understand it, once you permanently labelled your partner, something so she's being a bitch as opposed to she's a bitch.
Once you cross the boundary, nor had that she's, a bitch
Oh she's, she's, a rational or she's blank. That's no permanent condition. So it's easy for you to give up and start working on something because that that's that's not changing. Not that someone's acting a certain way in that moment is that they are permanently that type of thing and once you file in that way in your head, it gets harder and harder, probably to think that there is any resolution or happiness in your future in in an Ike. I have caught myself doing it with my kids and I have to police myself were I'll, go oh she's messy or she is blank she hates authority. She is this and I have to try to. I try to remind myself know in this moment she's acting this way, but she's not anything permanently, yet that part of contempt or right inflated, a bunch of things you have now and
It's the eye rolling, also finger pointing I talking to that person, while you're looking at a screen talking while the face thing in another direction, and why, at what I talked appearance alot about is- and I will often save your parent- ok, fine. Definitely you should get divorced divorced that person yes, but before you do, let us also think about- and this gets back to context the bigger picture and we just start to make the room larger. So the reason I say fine get divorced is to Jack. It's just like saying about the kids. They're, not backyard said, don't worry I'll get it.
Right I'm because their death spread it. It's a whole legal team that trying to get me to be the drugs and say: oh your rights. I can't believe you put up with it this. What I see you yeah, so the part that gets lost in contempt is compassion and that's not pity its compassion. Why would this person at this way at that moment so part of it? It was triggered in you and your big five years is your name, but the other is: what is this person going through right now so hard to make yourself do that when you're angry and somebody really give a fuck what was caused this? I just find this unacceptable and the
The reason you have to do it is that we are living so long that these marriages, we're expecting them to go on for longer than they ever had.
About alter it used to be like a ten year commitment you'll be dead tat. It was so
We have an aging turned off through science. I might be what this woman for three hundred years and the thing everybody is afraid of his dying, not death. Death can rely
if but die everybody's panic about, and yes, we're together for a long time, and we are trying to raise perfect children for it
twenty first century, that we have no idea what will require of them. So is it going to be perfect,
accent, list Mandarin or forged
an welding, we don't know there were so focused on that. The other person is just supposed to be part of your set of assets that you can provide
children instead of- and this is the burden on marriage, we are expecting the person to be the best friend you ever the perfect sexual part. A wonderful pro
wider and help maize and
someone who will never get on your nerves? One of the things that hopes a lot is humor and its tricky, because it
really easy again can be, nor can be weapon eyes quite easily, orderly, mouth and eyes, and it can just birth the bubble
is that there is a very fine line between making fun of something cause. You don't have the balls to bring it up as an issue and actually just a brain levity too hard situation, that's hard line to navigate and it doesn't have to be about the other person's characteristics. That's a risky one for exactly the reason you sad yeah, because it can be sarcastic or it can be a shield for saying something, really parading critical, a nasty yes, but if you can just like the situation,
and I'll, give you a personal example of that, so I I had this article in the times ever married for a long time you I've, I will have my fortieth.
Anniversary June twenty four congratulations yard francophone tremendous accomplishment, and we met when I was nineteen, although I had been nineteen for two weeks and it's so we ve been through.
What duff sure and I sense sound corny, it's better marriage! Now than it ever been a while- and I definitely think my husband would agree with that, but it's possible-
say he s, teeth are deleted, avenue, invited other lovers into the arrangement. I assume I am already yourself how we gonna throw anything. She
The other day was
I had this article in the times, and people were making comments, and I was so naive. We risk
binding through the comments which my two very sophisticated, adult daughters later said to me, mom you never do back. Don't ever do that again,
but I was getting a little upset about some things, dinner thing and my husband to set me everyone's a critic, and it was just ere. It was just air we both have to put up with a lot of stuff with each other,
He once came to talk I gave, and someone in the audience said to him. Are you her husband, and he said yes and he said well, that's not easy. It's true and its also true from
So this is treated Rio, every single parent,
yeah and you have a rustle. I have this internal debate in my head
I really enjoy the examined life and I think I've learned a lot of tools and I think in general it's really helped me a ton, but then there is another very that just goes one. If you never asked a fucking question, yes
through you now did you personally go is the right approach or
this is our what's the same,
ignorance is bliss. Do everything think like? Oh? Why can't I just flowed through. Why do I have to be mindful at all times of all these motivations? We have
fears, and nor is it. Is it just the only option for us now to actually being mindful of that time is an exhausting and unnecessary approach to life, and I'm always
to my patients? Could you please be a little dumber than we have done this down a little bad, because everybody is too smart here and thinking too much and looking for the subtext and trying to control themselves, but we happen to be animals, and so sometimes we behave like animals sure a lot of the Times gas, yellow, saying a you can't. You can't be too dumb for aid, but you can be too smart for oil
an intellectual defences are just sour appealing against each other. That's why I'm always telling people I say to them: your kids are really dumb and you better get start getting as dumb as they are of an you. Had one Need Tipp that I thought was cool. If I had a boy of really, we would have liked to have heard this in your article about the the boy in the dog. It was just a tool which I thought was great witches. Try talking your boys while their plane basketball, taking a walk, doing something physical. They don't wanna, be face to face with you. They dont want to sit in in in stare into your eyes in in open up till the current rules when the girl to enter puberty, what they often do is download to their moms every single bit of distress, her first
migration from every day every moment and the boys go into their room and closed the door and stop talking and one of the reasons they have to do. That is your stuff they wanted.
Who in their rooms, you don't want to look at their long talk about this in the frequency of masturbation, bully boys versus girls. I am of the opinion it's a bit higher for boys there. I agreed that lesson.
The cars that way or just has appointed that there's no real artistic representation of female masturbation young, female masturbation and film and television set the seems to be an issue that know what's any big, whereas for like boy
masturbate, that's something we all know aim or of my whole movie yeah and and that's not something the girls that presented for girls and I feel like that's bad guy. I've got it was about to I just one of the many reasons are those that boys, I do think are doing a little more frequently. Yet I think those culture. So
sources of enlightened and views about not just used, but humans are
Lena Dunams, Lenny ladder. Undead tv show high maintenance archive because in both of those places you see things that are true about the culture at this moment that have not been on screen before
or in or been in print out in what was I don't know, I'm not whereby those who your neck, I know Lena Dunham out, so
She has its pretty sure it's weekly she engender Conor are created it, but there are different guest editors. It's a news ladder and its writing just by women about the truth of their lives and masturbation would be
exactly the kind of topic, they would talk about rights and its combination of really dark and serious stuff about women written beautifully. Today's this morning's Lenny letter was written by a poet alta about her medical problems,
I'm with kind of jolly and adorable illustration and which is always a good combination, music and our little sugar with Sir Dark Subject matter, but light light presentation and
Maintenance is television
yeah, and so they
this show shows women that you ve never seen unscreened before and you say, are these actors where they found these people. The acting is so great that they look like real people and extremely beautiful, and that kind of subjects that come up on high maintenance are these things that are not in mass culture and that people need to become aware of, enjoy and respect like women masturbating right. So that's why I said sex education in school itself fettered, because every single parent is ready to get up in arms. So what they talk about is pregnancy prevention and disease right and they don't talk about love and relationships and some schools they do but its rarer. And this is the big deficit. I would say
family citizenship and emotion, education, and I just heard had not known about this. There are now tests of the social and emotional skill and kid you're getting numbers so now
apparently Q and again and again to but parents are going to be able to say my child was number two
classes in the empathy- and I heard yours was eleven and I can hardly tell by looking at how actually babes a yo yo there, I headed dad in an audience who said I thought, with a pediatrician about my sons,
car score. Do you know what that is now a winner? Babies born the pediatrician gives them a score. You know in there
please how their breathing it's just a minute, just vials one to ten and this vital. That is vital. So this man said I fought with my pediatrician about my son's Afghani score
and I'm one what'd you win. You tell me what you were catching numberless get us all the time. We're gonna go,
that? What you just trigger one of my funniest memories. I worked at California, pizza kitchen in Brentwood for a while, and I was a host and it came time for my review. I think you got one every three months and I sat down with my manager is going through all these different categories in this all out attack right,
yet the punctuality-
ok, I'll punctuality, you ve done a good job. I gave you a seven and now on appearance and I go all hold on Dan. I got a seven of been five to ten minutes early for every shift since I started in Ngos yet yet you have- and I appreciate that, ok great, what would one have to do to get a ten out of ten and punctuality half hour early
and he said ah well your wages, we gotta leave you somethin to aspire for, and anger
ok and then he can. I went through three more courage than I disco Dan Island. I dont think
I want to work somewhere in a trick me and doing something better than I'm already doing well, and I quit
and here is the best part of the whole story. The next morning I had a message, I my answering machine and it was Dan and he said,
now listen about thought over this punctuality thing in NAM,
I'm willing to go to, and I well doktor
Margo! Thank you so much for coming itself on the dog to someone as smart as you in that has the the facts to back up your opinions. It's it's! It's very stimulating for both Monica and I and am I hope, you'll come back and see us again because there's a million topic still. I would love to end as I start screwing up even more and more and more as these kids age to be funded, just get free sessions. Out of here I will be happy to come back and when the things I just thought,
about is. I have on my website a program called over parenting. Anonymous saw started out as a thirteen step programme to show wasn't really all real one, and now I think it's thirty six, because I just
we keep adding them, because we need these Montrose to figure out how to navigate the shoals of this idea of perfect parenting. Tell us that the website, its Wendy Mobile, that come so spelled out just for people like me, W e Andy, why am oh gee dot com loved,
because in the eyes, lecture schedule long erector again, if you type in Wendy's name as I did to google you'll arms, he all kinds of clips of her talking and she's, a very, very good public speaker, Eve, obviously done it. A bunch very entertaining is very informative and the name your book that's coming out. Ok, it's voice lesson for parents what to say how to sad and went to listen and aiding clue. It goes from before children are born through the whole span of adolescents and also how to talk to your spouse or partner. You
the grandparents, coaches teachers and your ex a wonderful. And how did you the stakes for your even higher that your kids turn out? All right, I mean you're
saying all this stuff for you. We all have this already expectation our own shoulders, but then for you whose
It was to have a little bit of knowledge on the topic. Isn't it just exponential that your kids be self sufficient at some point real hard on yourself as well? I was,
All. I need a two way I just alternate which, when I worry about each day and their self sufficient self
burning, adults, the regulations, but it never ends and we used to beat. We would be on vacation in a restaurant and a stranger would come up to one of my children when they were much younger and put their face in my child. Face and say: are you perfect
so this was this as an occupational hazard made. Every occupation has answered and have a great time on your
sure I'll be in New York, Chicago San Francisco in DC grey
and it all on my website to wonder,
thanks for coming Monday. Thank you so much for having a really fun. If you'd like to hear my good friend and producer Monica Padman point out the many errors in the podcast, we just hurt
boys. He also love chicken facts, facts, facts decision
of those boys more backs? Is there any overlap with facts?
that's saw, thank you. That's like
remember that a major new intra returned with I have its different every time they will be good for your remember,
so when B,
all that many thanks. You can imagine, because she's, an expert you're trying to check, hurt facts of the statement. She said it would inevitably lead you to her statement like they're gonna, go to intervene about her anyway. It's exactly so so. Try me who Primus spoke cobblestones, maybe we'll see judgmental less Monday's but
blessing of Askin me blessing,
we'll be minus voice, lessons for parents,
so she's written three bucks and you can find them on her websites by them. Support them. Yeah, not support them, support her by buying them. Her hacks,
Monica Monica love them facts Monica
like a move them boys rearing
utterly Lugosi was not a minute ago. Right, I don't wanna, ok, ok, ok,
tackle about anthropology and guard biology. Aha, what was interesting reopen so
yeah, but it also adds and also of field and archaeology witches and throws, will mean
and apologies the heading in under it. You have culture around the biology of his.
About the archaeology, isn't Alitalia iron
if you are steadily know of your digging up bones for dinosaurs
paleontology re, but an hour archaeologists specifically digging up human remains right. If you had a degree in up
and archaeology. You haven't anthropology to Korea during the answer. Department
interesting- didn't know that
so yes, so so so, yes, so so archaeology, sub field of anthropology and then biology is sub field of archaeology yeah.
I just thought it was interesting because the word was invented. You can tell me if you think this is wrong.
J Weber, man, nineteen, seventy one went through Bob Dylan Trash and that's how it was well yeah. I did not learn a part of it
Like some town, the Midwest Tower the guy went to the municipal trash dump compared with it
said they were feeding visa example. I thought I was introduced to it yeah, but Bob Dawns weird perverted
darker fans, the guy who invented it and maybe, as its first him. He said the word monopoly, maybe in vented it, but I think raccoons invented going through trash
private we suffer very singular rabbit or credit. Still, ok, see you talk about sugar and being very strict on sugar and there's a obviously there's a ton of science about why sugar is terrible for you, but
set up is a very good documentary on it. If anyone is interested in learning a little bit more about sugar lie, Billina or Euro yeah in its already strode allied red flag red flag, we have a pretty airtight commitment about watching old doktor
Maurice together as a fair, how you and Christian
I generally consume all documentaries,
I just want to know
it wasn't easy when in fucking, where it wasn't cheating visible, this is
three days. Us yeah is predates you. We want my good wandering, oh my god, I introduced you two american movie yeah another night, which is stealing my favorite document.
All time. It was so many
thing so hug she even inspiring hysterical, yeah,
if we really mean raising Arizona, documentaries
the more arrived yellow, just the
the specificity of the characters. Yields is never be it'll, be never be topped idle
there's, no way, you're listening, mark torture, but my gun.
If someone who knows more borders listening this, I love you mark Orchard and MIKE Shank
let me make sharing, is a really good. Everyone should watch that. Yeah, ok was speaking of documentaries, wild, well, country comes up and people's just really watches Netflix six per
a par for pilot. Our member may documentary Series on Netflix about a calls that really
the rise. Why rush me she's? I can finally pronounce a word after six months of talking about. I just got it a week ago. They worship a man named the bog one by one and
It also very short changes in the ocean.
Ok. So she measurement when she first entered the field of psychology. They would give either
red line or thorazine kids, and I think most people are
fairly familiar with riddle, end everyone snorted rude limits on point. I did not care
religion is a central nervous system stimulant use for hyperactivity ADHD in eighty
the war is seen is an anti psychotic mining
Is used for the treatment of schizophrenia symptoms,
ok, so that should not have been used. Willy nilly soared over the take away and is what she was saying, NEA those who view to drastically different options,
really and has at EU level a carpet bombing. It sounds like yeah conditions.
Yeah, I remember with domino effect with thorazine. Maybe I should now like giving you any idea is: can you free
the Vanity fair article about the guy with the glass I'm yes, the movie, the big short is
bout him a field which is the main character.
You said he was a neurosurgeon before I became an investment maker, which is pretty much true, the art
was called betting on the blind say: oh my god, you get your hands on this. This is
It's time for me with the very first article in the New Yorker up out the director, leaving
How do you think I want haggis? All haggis lose ideology who north of that article is the same guy who ended up writing the book going clear, but that our goal?
and then this one and vanity fair. I've never been so look at. It was just like
it was like eating. Sugar like every sentence, was incredible and you can find the english amnesia. Yes really a great red, and it's about Michael Berry
very well spent, be you are why, but, as I remember being pronounced, it was very mangled furry spur a moment and try to tackle them.
And he said
need economics and pre mad at the agency away when on turn an m d from Vanderbilt and then completed his residency in Neurology at Stanford hospitals and clinics, and then he left that residency to start his hedge fund. It's quite a story that movie is so
good, the Big George, I love that movie. He adds a really good movie. I almost wish I had seen the movie prior to
reading that our work is again that the article for me, it's just a plus out,
more about him answer. Of course I wanted the movie to be more about him right and left us just now. The movies about in Christian Bell play him right. Yes, christian bill in there, it's a fantastic movie.
Opinion with. You talk a little bit about happiness and what makes people happy and are not being a bank account and not a job position, sort of how engaged they're on their commuting, how much they help us,
There is a very good documentary on this. That's one of christian bells, favorite movies
is called. I am just by Tom Shady ACT and its it's. It's
Very good and does sword of delineate pretty clearly that things are actually make us happy and in life things that don't you
things that we think well. So it's mentioned that the likelihood of abductions is very small. An! U likened to worrying. Lay your kid organs
by lightning a Washington post article. Two thousand thirteen
Sad children taken
strangers, are slight. Acquaintances represent only
one hundredth of one per cent of all missing children, the last
comprehensive study estimated. The number was a hundred and fifteen and a year oh wow,
only about ball yet struck by lightning here about its round. That figure will be how many people are struck by lightning each year.
So just put it into perspective it, sir I'm reading something on Wikipedia says. One estimate is that twenty four thousand people are killed by lightning
strikes around the world each year in about two hundred forty thousand are injured. Another estimate is that the annual global death toll of six thousand well that's a gigantic gap but
regardless both estimates her way more. Let hires worldwide YE eyes way that friend well, but you just here's what you do. Monica you're just gonna multiply that ok by a factor of twenty ok, because where one twentieth of the world's population rough
they so twenty times, one hundred, of course, can be two thousand so again.
Even globally. Of course, we can speak to the dutch outside of eggs,
back. I really dont. Now still do I'm feeling very competent by saying describe better odds of UK giving strike. We understand by the bad news for me:
Over the last twenty years, the United States averaged fifty one annual lightning strike fatalities. Oh no fatalities, ok, placing it in the second position, just behind floods for deadly, whether ok, so I'm not bad news from you. Fifty one people
the ninth, surely a couple hundred Gulden struck. I I guess I wonder what the chances are getting struck for real
oh and not dying, ugly and announce and other factors.
The fact to look up this is analyzes, has backed vortex
I'll be bringing about lightning strike for the next twenty four hours, Malcolm Gladwell, thin slice sing. You bring that up.
And the psychiatrist who studies married couples is John Gottman
I'm glad you finally figured this exciting. I'm also seen in the past have said he was a professor at Stanford. Nine on Turkey is. This is a worrying
I mean I'm. It does have the question before I leave,
so you're, saying defensive in these facts are now I'm this I'm an inquisitive minor. Is I'm not saying you didn't you? You failed me and you see me. I never when you ask Questions- and I can't answer my muse Monica.
Questioning is monitored,
Mama Gama, Monogamous muttered, a fax backs, backs
God I am. I am! Could you good senior tyrannising anyway, John Government, and in the book it says:
after analyzing fifteen minutes of a conversation he could predict within ninety percent accuracy. Yom yeah, that's pretty conclude
whether the couple would someday merit and fifteen years. Yet it is incredible.
Its offer facts for Wendy. Thank you. Monica
everybody have a great rest your day or evening or morning or afternoon or whatever it is Europe too well,
not that I really liked about this episode that I think about once a week for sure is the part where she talks
don't read and joy and how we,
I went to a human pattern of dread. Drag dread dread joy, and I definitely do that you. I observe that, and I am very codependent with you right so how many times a week, do you think I ask you if you're, ok, it's gotta be Nausea
it's about as many times as someone get struck by lightning. Here. Yes
a week is our only those yoga?
I love you. I love armchairs.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-12.