Welcome, Welcome welcomed armchair export experts on expert, ah Monica Monsoon, and I'm tax shepherd out. If you don't give a damn, now: you're deck Shepherd Hugger, the one, and only it's getting increasingly confusing. I see a lot of people. Programming, like is named, it's my fault, Aramis serious mixed messages. Firmest yours well. That has nothing to do with our wonderful guest. Today, Abrams Ex candy is an author in a leading scholar of race and discriminatory policy in America, doktor candy. teaches history and international relations at American University in Washington DC. Although he has a new post at Boston University where we caught up with him the founding director of the Anti Racist research and policy centre at America university. He Several books that are all fantastic one of em right now is incredibly popular. We recommend that everyone is called her being antiracist, he also wrote the book

damned racism, anti racism and you and the black campus movement, black students in the racial reconstitution of higher education. A beautiful man appreciate his time. Please

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these tools work together in their all in one place? You just need a square account to get started, see all the way square can help your business right now by visiting square dot com. Slash, go slashed, acts that squared outcome. Slash goes lashed acts he's first, foremost words move to you said you just moved Boston. I just took a new position Boss University, I'm gonna, be building a new Eu Centre for your answer. this research, and now that I asked that I did read that MA am disappointed and myself I do the math on that, but yeah. Also congratulations on mad force. Do you like change? You grew up in queens right. You are very kind of specific lifestyle, community there and then you guys, move to Virginia in. So I'm curious. If you like change in general, I think I'm here

change is necessary to grow anything. Fortunately, for me, I've had to into a lot of change, so are even went to many different schools in in many different cities are so I feel like Jane has been constant, but I feel like Has been helpful because you're not being able to build swarm of ourselves as we change. Society is just as important and we can't be really afraid of it, then accents yeah. I totally agree a big proponent of change. At the same time, I can recognize like pre corona. when everyone found out. Oh my god, we're going to have to sit inside and do nothing. The fear of doing that, for me was an one thousand one hundred and then It happened right and those like this is totally tolerable. In my specific case, it's more comparable than other people's experience, had said.

then all of a sudden start to be like okay, we're going to we're going to rejoin society, and then that came with its own fear of change. I might this is bonkers. Just three months ago was afraid to do this and now I'm afraid to return, and it just kind of illustrated for me. My knee jerk to change is probably generally gonna be like I don't want to. gets a vague in many ways. This has been a lesson for demand: So many people have been forced to oil awfully decided to change and maybe I wonder in all of its demands for change in the streets, I wonder, is in many ways the pre rat what changes that were forced upon us as result of copyright. open the door for people to get more used to change. If there is sort of relationship between two. Why, definitely think when this whole period is viewed through

lens of history in time. You know I don't know, and seventy years all those components are gonna look very convenient. It can, I think it's gonna, like the covid nineteen contacts and that there are probably so many people that would have been to tunnel vision in their own world in their own work schedule to have participated in the numbers that were seen across the country it, I think, they'll be pretty obvious link viewed fifty years from now and I'm sure some of those books. It then he now nor are they would it be able to be demonstrated in so yeah there's a lot there, no you're a historian. So can you do compare and contrast if we ever had demonstrates actions across the country on this scale, for race equality, so What's this about been happening. These last two weeks is first and foremost, where

So it's literally, you know you're having demonstrations now only Washington DC but wrap your marrow You're happy situations in big cities, in Raw America, Suburban America, urban, American and I think that that What is the I think in the sixties? You had pretty sizeable demonstrations, but he was typically concentrated in particular. Axis is swept. nation arriving too many people have spoken about that have the first. The crowds had been there were the verse crowds among them traders in the sixties, as I know from stories as that's not as big a deal, but the scale and how widespread it is, an endless, sustained number demonstrations day after day and then for them to be growing as opposed to declining United is, is distinct. A kid, remember through my reading of history at another time like this,

Yeah- and to be honest, so I read the New York Times every morning when I wake up and certainly not cover to cover, I dont want to be bragging here. I read a lot of. I heartily their pets phrasing I read a bunch of, but at any rate you know for two and a half months. There wasn't a single story that wasn't corona covered related, even if you read like a food cooking recipe. in the times it had something to do with chronic and then like a I switch or that discussion lately all went away, and now nearly every article is about the protest is about a racial equality and that in thinking They could get us off the corona new cycle. I didn't think you know an approaching asteroid would be enough to go. stop talking about corona. So I think that says a lot in and of itself that we switched so quickly You know all the news attention to this in deed, that's out of the goodness of everyone's hard or that deeper fear of property damage. If I'm a cynic,

think, maybe it's that some optimistic. Maybe it's not done nothing those who are opposed to it The trade unions are looking at the demonstrations as a form of armour get in in the sand. that these are the people who trying to either literally or fear to destroy the country, if in their mind, the country is property in police and soda for they welcome New York Times and others your covering the signature moment in which our civilization, apparently is, is being destroyed, those who are in the protests say, demonstrations and and those who are supporting them from their homes, no compromise that, whatever our saying simultaneously then yes, you know this is an honor gettin moment, but not too. strong to do to build

a society of echo, the injustice to build a society where people violence is not rapid. It's my big a policy and supporting it both seat. As is fundamental, time where fundamental change could happen, I think that's even deeper than been covered Anyway, it's really about the life of this nation, I just had a question because I know D Phoenicians are important and you you ve, made that clear that that's a big first step is like defining all these things, so you just made a difference. A distinction distinction. Thank you between. Protests and demonstrations. Is there a reason for that? Yes, how to be racist. I tried very deliberately to distinguish between a protest and added frustration site to find a demonstration, as literally like we ve, been seeing in most cases in which people are coming together and marching or rallying and

calling in demonstrating, in speaking about the problem of racism or the problem of police brutality. They are doing at loudly in persistently. You know in this speaking directly to power or speaking directly to those forces that they want change or their speaking really to each other, but you know demonstrations, I think, is distinct from a protest. Protest is typically a very well organised crime hey that puts pressure, direct pressure on power so to give an example. So let's say we all have the idea of people who are striking and then there picket lines outside does books, simultaneously a protest and demonstrate from not working is putting direct Prushun power the change because you're powers losing money that Europe, because the people are not working. And then there also,

picketing outside to demonstrate to the larger problem? The problem, but that doesn't mean certainly put direct pressure on power in the way they are striking. That's right! I see. Ok, yeah! That's good distinction, that's a great point bring up early. Monica that you know, verbiage is so crucial right now that we're all working with the same definition. So I guess maybe blood is walk quickly through the history of the phoenician racism. So when I grew up, I guess the version that I poured concrete around. That seems to be the one I can't shake is basically a group of people feel superior. Do another group of people and there's an implied genetic. inferiority in that second group or that race. I wasn't anthropology major, which ever make fun of me, for I say that every five seconds but race was a word we were allowed to use in that it is the very terrible scientific progress.

if you're, trying to learn about any population. But how is that definition now inadequate or how does it need to be reshaped and what's the definition should all be working off of going forward Oh sure, so that definition really comes from the person who popularize the term racism itself in she actually wasn't. Anthropologists will Benedict, who wrote a book science and society and she D, racism as the unproven biological superiority of one group over another but what was happening with Bennydeck in some of her colleagues? were challenging. You genesis at time. You Genesis were saying that you have black people or

people are italian people that the people are these not anglo. Saxon rights were genetically inferior, they were also making a cat sore believing that their work distinctions and powerful hierarchies, so in other words, they were rejecting notions of biological hierarchy, but I think that certain racial groups, their cultures were inferior, there wasn't fasting a civilised people and then there also believes that certain racial goose would behave. Inferior can I You really quick how it behavioral differences differ from cultural differences, yeah sure any other requests, so groups sort of practice culture in humans practice behavior, you an only by humans, practice behaviour, humans, love, but depending on your culture, you're gonna love and so love looks differently. You know, based on deck, cultures, but

still love. So what happens? Is that every one of us sort of says that animal to assess love from My cultural standards in if another culture is a loving. The way that I am or my group is, their inferior Ethically, every group is gonna, save inferior to your own and I think its critical, speak think about behaviour. In the same way, we think about my pretty much all the sea violet ugly and behavioral, but there are cultural differences, What we should be willing and able to run why's that difference and basically level that difference. In so that's not what rules better? in some of our colleagues, were doing. They were not levelling cultural difference. and it wasn't until really the sixties that you had by the latter movement in the bow. Our movement you had black people say things like black is beautiful, and you know why

you know trying to get us to assimilate into your culture. Our culture is just as valuable as you. that people started rejecting those anthropologists were saying, you know what the a form of racism is when we speak about genetic right. Well, I can, on my own, to Miss Arena, so I don't think I've ever thought all biologically. Some population is inferior, so I have gone like all that culture, values, machismo more than this culture of theirs. There are these different metrics to measure different cultures, one being your fear of authority, that's on an index that IBM compiled right and can kind of explain pie behavior in a cockpit thou, that's fascinating! So culture seem to be more machismo driven and I genuinely like I hate that you know I'll say I don't like that part of that culture, so I've I've done it I'll just say that the meanest harm asking itself leave born and raised in the United States. Where one

necessarily talk to level cultural difference were taught. First of all that there is a standard culture. This is of human culture, in that human culture. Typically, is why and does it? Pacific way in which that's called is considered civilized man usually men and we should all be us. Basically, striving to be that way there in that typically obviously degrades the cultures of many different people, and I guess for me try not to appear. for instance in I was raised in Africa the culture that I am most familiar with insults that try to recognize. I don't really understand enough about. Other cultures be able to truly and accurately compare really have to do it in a very

intensive study, and even I can sort of understand history, but culture is so difficult to truly understand if you're not immersed it's almost like coming to understand a language is its best, They are just sort of do especially if you have emerged. As you know, from the time when you are child yeah, I'm gonna, have to take some positions here, to make this interest team but one thing I do in an apparently come up, but I will say, while we're on the Anthropology Tipp, that we have just, I think relevant to start by acknowledging that we have a lot of bad hardware. We ve evolved to real. identifying group out group very quickly and that as Paul our survival for some hundred thousand years being able. identify your in grouping. You're out group could have been worse. For death? We have a lot of hardware that makes it very easy for us to identify us versus them, and I think that that something

That has to be challenged endlessly, and I think to ignore it We too have a naive sense of what the solutions can entail. Do disagree with that, or do you think that, as some merit, I'm not sure whether that's all one of our genetic make up due to air. You know. I would certainly agree that it's a form of our make up due to it at the time our socialization. Like setting an example, I have a new book coming out in terrorist speedy, when I first started: writing you. You know, research just to make sure that this something that was needed in some. You know basically back to a lot of research? studies show that women babies born. You know first week they tend to match. Recognize race in Seoul. The words what they find is vital. Months, because either six months, the biggest three months all day,

his tend to look longer at the rates of pay boy who match their caretakers, but they once that doesnt have. Oh, you know it would seem to me that at least if this was racial asked These will be doing that from birth, so it may be in other ways. But what were finally that this is something that's tied by two years: that's when babies tinted discern people's behaviour based on their rights, but they're not doing that six months or one. You so you're, certainly being socialized up we race, and to have the study. Did you watch them most recent Chapelle Special he about watching the white people, go through the opium epidemic. In these like tat, I finally get it now and I you felt about the crack epidemic and I was like you now. I dont think Chapelle hates white people. He doesn't desire to see them struggle for monopolies epidemic, but

is calling out a truth which is there is some limit, which is that's not my group, I'm not even really going to think about it. You have to actively kind of challenge yourself to not do that. I think another layer of that for many Blackie boys, SAM, Dave is old enough to remember the response to the crack epidemic, I think there is a level of their child were black and you went through the crap epidemic in you saw the state respond with he's in jail horse and derision, and now you're, seeing as as the state should be for the most part. Responding with public health resources recognising this is a disease and not a criminal act and inch and provide services with people. You know, I think, like what you know we received this, and I think that a certain level of resentment great point, so when the crack epidemic started and

yeah I was very cognisant during that period in my ongoing down, because of it, and yet a risk Hans was, let's delineate the difference between powdered code that use nor an wrought coke and, let's criminalize it differently, That was the response. It wasn't all. This must be a health issue. And now very much we I recognise its a health issue and people seem pretty opened the notion that it was a health issue. Or increasingly so that was never presented in defence of people using crime so it is a similar resentment right now with hoagie ninety, because from the of March and early April when there was not widely known that the black and brown people were disproportionately being affected This was seen as a major emergency in that we needed to radically social distance. I believe the king asked it's close, but then family

April. We begin to see these regional disparities in state after state. Then, suddenly there was talk of ok. We can now reopen where the states yeah ends. when there was no race attached to the victim You know it was something that was a crisis, but then, when Sir, faces became attached suddenly it lets open So people are your privately, No really resenting yeah Now I would point out that I feel like your uniquely qualified to react, Katy us on this topic, because by your own admission, I watch your you see Berkeley speech, which was fantastic. I recommend everyone watch if you The fact you were on the d. a team in Virginia and you actually took The position of how do we explain this disproportion incarceration and by your own admission you were a part of the very start.

school of like let's blame the victims, because I think it's again really relevant that you have viewed this topic through the glass is that I think a lot of people are stuck wherein right now I gotta be antiracist, begins. With the speech I gave as a senior in high school, I was finalist for this moment, the king or a terrible contents imprints in County Virginia, which is outside of the sea and actually ever tabled that speech and you know why she had now, I'm just completely ashamed of things that I said, you know just as a point of contact, came of age and ninety nine, this was the year. Two thousand if there was ever a decade in american history with black youth in particular, are considered The problem will concern a menace to society. You know it the ninety nine. These answers

There was all these ideas about black you'd being violent, not valuing education, black, you, you know having too many babies and- and many of those ideas were constantly sort of talk to me, and I ended up internalizing those ideas, and I ended up producing them in this speech and was really a speech in which I thought was so radical. I've got out sort of honouring their the king, when indeed it was just a speech, The study in which I was constantly talking about all the things wrong with black you back, you ve W education like you when applying the hard for your pregnancy and embrace people don't have intestinal fortitude. And all of these reasons ideas about all the things wrong with black people and so on. began the boy. So I'm talking about in admitting that an impact because I recognise that the answer racist we must

meet those moments in our life in which we expressed race. Ideas which we support, embraces policies. We cannot be like the press, when we say that majority black What's more, they ran builded invested mess then, a human being on one leg and memories challenged racist statement. He says on the least races person anywhere in the world. We can't be like that. We have to be women we met the mistakes that were made I was just excited. We finally figured out who the most anti racist person was cuz. It kept me up at night, and I was like I can stop thinking about it. We fit. We found them Do you think, the nineties that the young blackmail was target number one? Do you think it simply because I cube is far more popular than Curtis Mayfield, examining I mean, I think the stories change like I telling the story of yours surrounding and song is not new. Is it just? Was that the mass popularity of white kids,

consuming that media that had everyone freaked out or is it simpler, just one piece of it so it was a combination of the late and in as a result of really crack market competition M growing, a mass unemployment. Particularly among young black people. Those helped contribute to a growing out of violent crime answer. Instead of people sort of tracking, this growing amount of unemployment among young black you and violent crime. Instead, they said no, it's. think about the porch. It's something about the hip, hop there listen something about their way of life or they're, just beasts by nature. This super credits, and so therefore we need a crime. Do too trade. These people with more prisons with three. rights in your out rules with more cops anything,

then combined with black and brown. Children was still getting lower, scores and standardized test anyway. people saying you know it's because they don't value education, you also had to civil rights generation. Grown into their fifties in Switzerland, then sixties and were basically telling young black you'd. Like me, you are not honouring king stream and so there was a lot of things got. I wanna go parallel, one thing and I've done this myself, which is because ultimately, I like to believe in myself. I'm interested in prevent cause I of anything we don't like so Germany I'll say, will look or how did a guy like Hitler come to power, was everyone in Germany evil. If you reject the notion that all three, Five million of those people are, however, many work evil. You have to explain it, so the explanation is treaty of Versailles as these war.

Operations that are so in cumbersome too much to pay back. The inflation goes up by sixty thousand a month and So what you get so like I'm trying to say in this context can produce this outcome, but I'm I start with the notion of I find it hard to believe everyone in Germany was evil What's the explanation that can get me to them following Hitler, but if the crime rate goes up in black, meaning is the last thing I do is say. Well, I know they're great people, so why on earth could the crime rate be going up at the rate it is. There has to be an explanation. I think that's the little bit of benefit of the doubt that historically black mean he's never gotten because there's this long standing b the most dangerous race. study is the idea. Dangerous black neighbourhood with dangerous people that need to be policed, with lethal force.

and then that leads to somebody like George Forward being killed or Brianna Taylor, and it also causes us to not recognised? a very simple truth, many Americans believe that certain neighborhoods have higher levels of granite crime, because the people are black, so in other words, something about the black people that is behind this ban on the very same Americans, no the neighbourhood down the way, with higher income. Black people have less violent crime, So if blackness of the people is behind the by the crime? Would it the higher income? Maybe we have the same levels of violent crime, know what that means is that is actually the long term poverty the higher levels of unemployment we should be doing. These is dangerous. Unemployed neighborhoods which then completely changes the calculus on the problem and solution. Here,

I feel like I'm regularly, and it's very easy for me to step in and when I do this, but even Monica. I have had many debates form like all you. Looking at his socio economic issues, I mean: there's, that's not true That's too simple, because there's also just a straight visual racism happening, but someone These things are really socio economic issues and if you compare white people of similar socio economic situation, you also see much higher crime, extending fluent areas of white culture. So you know so much at this stuff is really predictable. Just on the socio economic aspect of it, it is I think, its critical for us to distinguish. What is what's economic and what is not in it, but I think in terms of socio economic even when it comes to crime, women we'll think of violent crime, they think of murder, they think of

robbery, they don't think I've just drive examples of violent crime in drunk drive actually does tend to happen more in a fluid white suburbs. black considered, you know to be about crime because of the way in which you know, people sort of regarded and then even when it comes to robbery. Europe People are more scare the sun. did you know robbing them for their while on the street. Then somebody is in their suburban affluent neighbourhood, robbing the whole licence, as we see it every night on american dream a lot that your favorite show. The of this is in many ways. People will be that they live in these same neighborhoods, because a very narrow conceptions, crime, an impact

once, but you're just dimension about socioeconomic. I do think when it comes to this issue, it people focused more Socio Economic did. I would it will make it much better. because the issues like hell, I think it's a little bit to get it oh. Probably one of the most credible racial health disparities, is that mothers are three to four times more likely to die during pregnancy, then than white mothers and a fluent blue Mothers are more likely to die during pregnancy and poor white mothers. That's, alright, even cuts across class yeah. That's it

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there's. All this are dead now write about why the opium crisis didn't it the black muni in such a strong way. One of the factors mean that white doctors dont believe black people are in pain. so they actually were prescribed the medicine at nearly the right white people were, which would you not lower the introduction raid and then the ultimate addiction ray I think it's important to point that out, because one of the things that happens with racism is its critically important. I think for four, why people to record that, as a result of racist policies, you know why people even white for people more likely to live in mixed income neighbourhoods, and then black workpeople happening the priorities in the bandages cancelled, right benefit more than people of color from racism, but at the same time, why people get hurt by racism to it's just

described an example in which, because of people's racist idea, that why people feel pain and black people do not your have doctors prescribing way, He bore payment, They were not prosperity and then sort of fuelling this, this epidemic in their communities. It's almost is similar to ours, how you doing authors and believe that sickles on Ebay is a black disease, so only black people get sickles anemia, even though it's really a malaria disease, it shows up among peoples who were no concentrations of malaria. That's not just Sub Saharan Africa parts of Southern Europe was just like Portugal, that's, of South America. If, Turkey is a moroccan showing with then, the sickle saw array, does not do so, then let them the person gets. Misdiagnosed gets ha ha interesting, relevant

we now see you said is inextricably linked to malaria, so single cell is advantageous. It's a co down Jeanne right, so you can have some your blood cells signalled some, not sick in the signalled cells. Do carry oxygen better when you have malaria right, that's my understanding of how its an evolutionary advantage. it's all its offends against malaria, which is why It shows up in higher concentrations among peoples in where malaria is more prevalent? Ok, let's get into your book right now, which is congratulations, you sorry the impetus, but people are reading it in huge numbers right now and to think as fans have you had it sitting right here? How to mean antiracist on our desks now expect It was the difference between being raised not racism, anti racist, some being a racist is someone who is

stressing the racist idea was supporting a racist policy. Robin Antiracist is someone who is expressing an antiracist ideal supporting in antiracist. So, in order to really unstable, Afghanistan, a racist ideology, antiracist until a racist idea is any idea that suggest a racial grew superior inferior to another in any way or that this is what better or raw or write about particular racial grew. These are racist ideas in antiracist idea, suggested there's nothing wrong or right. superior period inferior about any rational at the racial groups are equal, as we talk about earlier that the races. the same biologically behaviorally and indifferent, ethnically and culturally

but what we're gonna level, those sort of ethnic and cultural differences and then in terms of policy, so united Racist is someone who is also supporting racist policy. These are policies deadly her racial inequity or injustice while the antiracist policies lead to two equity injustice. So, to give an example, a pull tax lead black people being disproportionately disenfranchised in the south This is essentially a racist policy in the same way now Booter IP law are Unfortunately, this franchising black and brown people so they are racist policies. By contrast, when the Voting Rights ACT in eighteen, sixty five was passed and it will states to prove there are new voting law was not going to disenfranchise a particular racial grew,

that was an example of anti racist people started. Registering people started, building in greater numbers, people of color so All of those people who were expressing racist ideas. We are talking about slave holders or even you talking about police officers today who are saying that black people are super betters, they typically I also see that not priests. and you general consider themselves to be not racist. In our times Even many members of the cooks, clan were saying: they're, not racist. Every Cooper, writer, there she was based. Toll to leisure door in central park and instead of just releasing her dark, she didn't friend blackmail and then call the police the to claim her life was being threatened and then, when she was challenged for weapons rising her whiteness, she was like no, no I'm not racists.

When I see the history of the use of the term raises a typical. See, people were challenged or doing something. that's raised saying that operates, as does the only really utility, I've ever seen for the use of that term, nor of any other meaning. But there's a way. clear meeting, are ok does that idea? No racial hierarchy? Ok, it's braces! Does that idea, no racial equality, its antiracist That policy leading to equity, ok, it's entire raises is that policy leading to enact we risks You know I'm seeing a really great parallel between attic, so I'm a recovering attic and so often people. It takes years, for them do admit there addiction because they have someone in their life whose, worse to be honest, and it's like an addict, MIKE's attic, MIKE's, inadequate and show for work. I've never been laid to work. Ok! Well, that's

definition of being a picture. You're not. Are you miserable and discontent? Do you have records of another variety? Yes, but as long as MIKE's in the picture, so I do think a lot of like no races is David, do or race is some other person they now in their life, whose, like you just more boy lighten Ivan issue with the term races. Simply because, if I'm labelled in our society is a racist, I'm likely get fired. You know I do dude. My brother works with got fired for racist tweets as he should have, but Knowing that the potential stakes are lost employment ostracizing you from, community get a really do the incentivize people to acknowledge the racism. So I'm a raises. There's no question of its spectrum. Right intends David, Duke, maybe he's not even a ten.

In zero of so that was born, not in this country, I guess, grew up a Mars. You know I don't know what I am a two or three uncertainly racist. I can't not be I've inherited at all. kinds of thought structure and in our detection that, like I'm not even aware of half the time, it feel like there's no safety net for people to start acknowledging like. Oh, no, I'm on the spectrum. Where am I ad on the spectre? What are my goals where my trying to get to on this spectrum, because it feel like there's no room for that, will, and also you say so well in your book, you say being raises- is in a pejorative, its descriptor, so we changed the frame of it of like this is describing something as I'm bad cause, I'm a racist could yet people don't think they're bad. So that's a big hurdle. No I agree- and I I think What I'm trying to do with my work is sound, what's asleep get people have a very clear death.

of what a racist is, but then also from the rafters that those people were striving to be antiracist. Are there? look where admitting their racism, what that means is like what Pew We should be looking for invaluable valuing is the, and who is no longer in denial about their ditch em you I've used quite a bit the analogy of addiction you know I'm talking about You know when you're really truly striving to be answered. Races, it's almost like you're trying to overcome and addiction you you're always taken at a day. At a time you ve never become an antivirus. You know every moment. Every day think about your actions. You have to think about what you're doing, and you know, You dont you relax and Soda ass. The sort of struggle because of the way we ve been brought up, and I think people

recognise that and the like nice just too much work. Fridays but rather this call myself not racists. and so on, like no there's, no such thing as not raises some of you If you don't want to do the work just like a person who is it into a substance, and they don't want to do the work of overcoming dangers still now addicted. To add substance. You know you are abusing a substance, your Seeing your life, your risking your job, your risk in your your relationships. It's the same thing when you are fusing to now star on this journey being antiracist, ok, now, here's where I'll get dicey is it now? leave to ask people in the per se to pray or ties an issue that is from our group,

above the things that are in there in groups I'll just give it a hypothetical and I'm pro choice. But I recognize there's a lot of people that are pro life. I also recognize the people that are pro life we believe there saving life, I believe believe they're saving life, and I and I can respect and understand it so think a lot of the traditional conservative right wing supporters may say: yes, I think that guy's racist, but I purse I am elevating killing babies above racism for me, I'm a one issue: voter and I've gotta protect baby, from being killed and I'm sorry that racism is taking a second position to that, but it's gonna I don't agree with it, but I can empathize with it you say: you're, ok man and you recognize how pervasive homophobia is in this country and you're

This is our challenging in approving homophobia from this country and your life. What I mean The scenario also talking to me about trying to fight racism, no I'm focused on phobia I got my hands followed this homophobia exactly so what I would suggest is critically important for People to realise how all of these oppressions intersect and feed on each other, example: homophobia. The first major and are right about this. In my my book stem from the beginning, we The first major writer who talked about The sexuality of gay people in England any actually sought to advocate against those who, or I should say, law at the time the late nineteenth century was being being gay, was

He also racial sort of homophobia, What was happening you mentioned century is People were seeking to really sort of understan sexuality. Fuel sexuality through the black body through started. Examining the black body dissecting my body and it became the same thing with where people in which it was imagine the clearness was a buyer. article entity that can be demonstrated, so they get example. It was a at the time that gay women are lesbians, views have larger tourists. heterosexual when, because that demonstrated a hyper sexuality and it was imagining almost walls were more hyper sexual.

then heterosexual, so people within measure people's general area to determine how sexual they were and thereby how homosexual they were It was also imagine that the tie that black women that black people what more hyper sexual they might be. So then it was a man in that Black women who were lesbians, have larger glitters is than white women who were lesbians, and why. had this is beginning people, understanding and really making the case for the inferiority of queer people and they were not separated from rates because in many ways they were informed by re signs that was determining people's behaviour based on their genetics and so is critical people to understand that I've been saying to people who have tunnel vision about a budget The issue

chances are in this country and others. Racism has played some sort of significant factor in what we viewed Heather Magee, and she is talking about the two thousand financial meltdown and how all of those predatory subprime Mortgages were basically ray. certain developed on communities of color It's not always obvious how a white person might suffer under these racists policies- it's not always so clear. Isn't you no problem One of the most striking example of this offering among why people as well, Racism is probably the whole gun I primarily white man and white male politicians have advocate I merely in red states too remove sort of, Safety law they succeeded, basis, that these

white men needed to defend their families from so called about peanuts. Invaders, criminals in muslim terrorists, and so I need to harm myself self. You know in our community movie slackened protect my Emily against these people. An until they were trafficking constantly in those ideas. Those racist ideas, So then these states remove those guns. Eighty cars and white men began sort of accumulating weapons and then What we begin to see statistically is arise in male suicides Hugo so you see the states who kept these. Safety laws in place versus the states that removed. Then you see this spike in in white male knock, you anyone else primarily white male to the level of blackmail. Homicides! That's how much is happening right now, very quietly,

quietly, because it's not a national story like all the people being killed in in it, primarily being wrong. Why peoples on racism, then, and also those very operations are simultaneously harming them economically and then turning around and saying Well, you know who's hurting you, immigrants has people. and so therefore you need more guns to kill yourself, obviously than us in Alaska Y know it so interesting, United, the gun debates, I've had with folks, and let me his own, I own again, so it's like I'm and a gun and in the most broad sense, but it is so convenient they dont want to include suicides into the number of gun, fatal is it so bizarre like how on earth is there not a gun fatality? What's the logic behind it, there's really none other than. Inconvenient for them to Dallas how many people who set out to defend their family

Robert. He ended up taking up the patriarch it. It's it's pretty crazy. it is not only has the array succeeded in that, but the arrears seated in in preventing the funding of reason, In a suicide by hand, and the causes of that because again, if you're, that our aid no earlier array men all across the country. begin to realise that there is an epidemic of white male suicides and it's coming as the result of this mass of accumulation of guns start to look around who's been pushing for us to accumulate guns, and telling us we need governs who's, been advocating and funding those politicians who are doing is they are still there all of those guns pointed at those, so called I've been examined grants criminals in muslim terrorists and even themselves will

basing them in Europe. How could they even live another there? you pointed out, which is great, is that an anti racist is not looking at. What's going on with people, it's about. Looking that what's going wrong with policy, so could you give us like a top three policies that we need to be examining, be aware of and be active? against when voting on voting, think voter already laws will. Let me just say the number one is. We should have automatic registration which everyone is just automatically registered about I agree in your birth certificate. You get a voter I for lifeguard, precisely so that the whole concept of registration, allows certain people, when its historically been full of color and women and poor and working people. to be decisive? I saw you know we need completely eliminate.

a whole set of function. Registration. And then this good thing I would say, is weakened line, we can conversations like this online. We can do everything online. Somehow say but is weak figure out a way to go and the reason why this is critical is because even with the democratic primary. He was. There- was a lot of criticism, coming down on younger bowlers, who are supporting Bernie Sanders and even others more and others not carrying out a bow higher numbers s since all the borders and instead of people. thinking about king. How can we change the way in which people both that would be allowed for more young people to both. Instead, that's demonize, those guns. insult me you're. Something online body

to me ring it a lot of young people into the voting system and finally,. I think its most important for us figure out a way to ensure that money is Completely removed from politics, and so therefore politician is not thinking. First and foremost, How do I raise money because I, if I raise money, I can raise boats. Have you seen their schedule like when their schedules broken down? I feel bad. I truly feel terrible for these. All of these, the senators, the congressmen, everyone, the bulk of their daily activity is raising money. By the way, even if you fucking ate their gods, which you're entitled eight many of their guts not Noah, wants a raise money for money is not fun for anybody. They'd rather be doing policy work than that.

equally in, and so how do we do that? We are completely eliminate money from politics, an insult bacon then spend all their top asked. The arm, I'm thinking about what's best for their constituents, as opposed to think about what's best for their donor, Because, again is critical for us to recognise that both yet you elected, but for them sport money gets you boats, they're gonna go out of funding, and so we have to eliminate that and then that will then allow for a much better slate of candidates who much more focused on doing what best for the majority of their constituents. I'm curious about something real, quick as we're talking about. I'll it so right now, there's a big push in certain areas of defending the police and the police. Obviously is a big talking point and allow people will say most please office are good and there's some bad apples, and I,

just wanted your perspective on that, because I originally came in to this argument. Thinking what yeah this is an internal police problem. The good apples have to call out the bad apples and that's the fix and that's how this changes the more I learned of the good apples can actually not call out the bad apples because it's impossible to fire the bad apples with a good one says like hey: do don't do that. That cop is put his own life at risk as own career, and that lot of us to ask this individual person to do. We have, do who already has a job with their interfacing with the mentally ill, the homeless yeah, though not all they browsing, handling, yeah and and so I think what people are there not do, a little deeper and saying it's. The system that prevents these quote by apples from getting removed from the orchard? What are your thoughts on that

I think these two things to talk about is the policies and the people is the officers themselves and in this idea, there's only a few bad apples. We actually have semi there. One on LISA. Since two thousand. Seventeen merely thousand sore observers. we're survey and ninety two percent of the White Office in the survey agreed with the post Why idea that get history has made the changes needed to get blacks. Equal rights me explain what I mean that that means and ninety two percent of white light officers in a survey of eight thousand officers. Basically believe, does equality and if they racial inequity? It's not. Because of racism, because there's something wrong with people of color only six percent of white officers agree

with the idea that our country needs to continue. Making changes to get blacks, equal rights with rights and ass compared to sixty nine percent, a black offices loud just we can sort of sea? That means that a large chunk of black officers, the majority, will we that this nation somehow is post reach, sixty nine percent, sixty nine percent of black officers said they agree or disagree with the result has risen I was that of black officers agreed with idea that our country needs to continue making changes to be relaxed. Ah right backwards, Yes, a sixty nine percent of black office. You said that you intend to give another example of a survey. Why officers, Twenty seven percent of them said that the deaths of blacks

encounters with police in recent years, our size of a broader problem, so yeah, basically only a quarter. And went officers believing there is actually a serious searing problem of police, black people Only six percent of wine officers actually believed that racism exist. Yeah. So what what is it about american policing percent is mine. higher than the regular? Why public so far why people in general is closer to maybe fifty five percent or sixty percent. In most surveys of white people at the most safety that sk the nation is pulse and fifty five percent versus ninety two percent: what's happening, in of an american policing that so many believe that were unopposed.

racial society. What is it about the culture of american policy and when you believe that. At the same time, forty percent of EU persuaded people in this country are black. you believe then by people more dangerous or more violent, alma criminal like are committing more crimes in that's. Why did this personally arrested That's. Why did this across me into it, It makes sense to me how police officer Would- fear for their lives in black communities in ways that the union's there's nothing in terms of structural issues, anything about like if your police officer to do after the fact you say you fear, for your life and then you'll, get off yeah. VOX is going to do it a police officer you get rid

for doing something wrong all do is contact your union Adele hit it. A trader and then you can get that punishment over time Isn't that what you gonna do What we're talking about our policing and police officers through their unions, of any other profession. you literally, can regularly on people and kill people, still go back to work. The next. Like nothing happened, an old another profession like that american police in that's a serious problem,

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Provocative thought on all this, and I just don't hear it get brought up. I guess it's in keeping with the the White Fragility book, but when mention that the algae Q response from the header community in driven obviously largely by men in power, It makes no sense to me because there's this huge mal insecurity that feel so much downriver policy that no one, I think no one really wants to address, which is the main fear of kind of importance that they need to control women's bodies out of the sphere that they criminalize things that would appear to threaten their frail ego when it comes this, so I will just say that your average white young male suppose you to the black world is through sports and you're looking at Shaquille, o Neill you're. Looking at all these people, in pornography, so than white kids are watching pornography, so there's this do

a thing happening where they feel physically inferior, and now they have this. huge sexual insecurity that they can please a woman, and that those fears. Very active, whether the it's on the further brainer in the bag, their brain, I dont, think anyone's the really acknowledging that too, out there. The thought not think. This is another example of how a racist here about a mother who can come back to harm your sense of self in so, if you, white male in you this is that black men- I hope, for sexual have larger penises than white men We sort of sort of soup starts, I can tell you even someone that, where a white guy there were described himself is not, races would also believed that black men have bigger penises. Don't you believe that idea

then you're a white male you're gonna, be ok, these other! people are better and better me yeah or abandon their there, No, I'm not gonna, be able to satisfy women. Forget the fact that women don't care about penises. It's only US men, but that's it. I gotta say that out loud is only as dudes are comparing venuses you. so again as it comes back to sort of what was the same thing with with white women believe? this sexist idea. There True wondering is a sash. A nice respectable cannot be session. Raw and those women who are not nice and one, really women, those women of color they are actual their hyper sexual, then you're gonna have the sense of insecurity. Am I be able to please this man? He asked

So it's actually creates all sorts of problems, but again the origins of it are these. This idea is here, and I think that people can live free themselves. in securities and even of their relationships with with people and their lives, while it's interesting, because you look like the extreme popularity of hip among young white kids. I get the appeal man. I was a young. Why kid, and I listened ice cube like this dude is afraid of shit like there's this hyper masculinity being presented in the hour. That is fair appealing to someone who feels powerless in young and not developed, and all these things. So it's like you're going from the music here listening to his enhancing this notion, of hyper masculinity and then you're tuning India, sport show and then that's kind of reaffirming this flawed active and then your watch is important at night and that the whole thing seems like a cycle that is worth examining, and I guess

the solution seems obvious that We need all the representations of all the many different variety within the black community and not just reducing it to the things that are selling tickets, strawberry who led the black body has been modified. You know in this country ways much the intellect France's are of a black people have not you often about its actually much more complex than us, surely saying that racist have historically been white people, a superior in black, What's actually more complex is you why people as intellectually superior Yan visit inferior, yeah they made. This idea makes the human superior to the animal. Is the human intellect yeah further! You are from being like the more

human- you are another closer. You are to being animal the more black you re. So then you don't black people are closer to animals and then it then men's perceive animals. Is these voracious sexual and physical sort of beings than that humans are not and dangerous animals are dangerous unpredictable. There is a need to be subdued need to be here. Oh man is not in the near future, asleep, Abrams ear so fantastic. I really appreciate you taken so much time to talk to us is there's something that I didn't bring up. That means bringing I'm pretty trapped in my white male bubble, so I got gummy missing some shit. I think we covered everything we are gradually

What I really hope we get to talk to you in person. Maybe, when Europe promoting your new book, you come see some personnel, we wonderful equipment. The baby book is so age does forbid, The bees were more like zero too far, but we you see like a book, is is certain language and that obviously directed towards small. The babies and then, as other language. That's not because in many ways, just like me teach babies, we'll be nice even before it and understand what that me right so too should be teach them. You know about equity, justice. So you know some people are reading its people. Six to seven years. Oh yeah alleys these kids, do they say some shit that boy, if it were imprint, may be cancelled, like both my children have grown up around Monica ordinary sitting or like were or in a cab more looking at the window and whose these two horses trotting down the street pulling a carriage am I.

Play for your goes on. Oh my god. That horse looks just like Monica and am I what on earth? Is she talking about and I know, is one of the horses is white, one of the horses Brown I am a color, but man did they do say whatever the fuck, an observation that someone has grown, who, I think you do appreciates different skin, goes by What I do think is indeed in that sort of same vein. I think it a lot of parents think or have thought up until now, that the right message to send their children is don't forget. On color and become. or blind yellow out of the dream? You don't see, pretend you don't see, which is also, I think also a racist idea in some way. because colourless really means why

here's your seen, everyone here I realize what a relays me round. I see you like me what that and possibly yes, but I think that too changing a little better than you are These are my fellow no, no, no, they they can see if someone's got more mountain, right away again. Man, you're you're, so awesome, and I really appreciate you taken time. Employees were always at your disposal, there's something you think that needs to get out a platform. It, disposal so much ever able to sit down and talk as too great great thank you will do it again soon arrived definite and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul, made Monica bad men so

this was a first welcome to the fact that this is the first time ever. Real time fact check it during the interview yes has run it take to number. They didn't want to not fact check for like this third week in a row or something right, so I wrote down pacts as they were happening, so I definitely miss Samuel. Miss some clothes pan attention hard well yeah, you're engrossed in conversation you break up forgetting yours, was be checking and prefer yeah. That happened a few times by did do it and it was kind of cool candlelight. Do you I can about like? I was really a student in class. I was taking notes essentially to bring it back to your cause days. You know I loved. I also Ebro is a professor. He is sound. I love professor, you sure do what what did you jumped down during that session? So I'd shotted? Well, I'm! So sorry before you get into that there was one year mark. Remember which was you brought it up and we didn't really

Splore at a high, and you wanted to explore. I wandered were here. Let's than that was this term defined the police, and I for most people, I would see that wording go wait, so less police has ever seen and scare aim. The ad sounds like you're gonna put less Resources into fighting crime is what it sounds like on the surface, but a few splore what it means that its basically reality, gaining some of the budget to preventive measures yet so that their dealing with less crime and to getting them specialists on the ground that can deal with the mental, issues at the police are dealing with daily hourly and the substance, abuse issues and homelessness crisis. So people who are more apt to handle those specific issues right now. The cops are handling all these issues a bear not equipped to handle him, none of us or whilst

people are, and those are the ones that need to be given money to so. Once again, I think it's terrible branding on the left is I'm very critical of the branding on the left. This one. I think it could have been definitely worded differently, that they want some preventative allegations made from the budget to what it is. That seems more appealing to me it's very upstream thinking, and I hope it happens because it seems like that is what is needed and when you first hear that It seems like, oh god, like even my my had the same reaction when I saw it. Somebody sent me a text basically asking me to stood on my social about defending the pleas and others like I'm, not posting there. I don't know what that is. I dont think I want that and then one say started doing a deeper Diebold like oh. No, I totally do. I think, that's really smart and I also recognise that part of the reason my responses

oh no is, I feel, protected by the police harder by privileges like I don't feel harassed by now that I'm like. Why would we do that? But that's all part of this whole issue so yeah reallocation ya like them. After all recall, how ring hollow abrasion following yeah, need to appoint a sum? president liaison ambassadors I want to be employed in some capacity to help the wording and branding the rights great at it like the death panel, like they really death tax for a tax leaner. They know how to do to their people, really naughty, get there, but excited about the dirty and her, but I would say to be fair. You're not looking at it from a left perspective when you say that you are looking at it from a right perspective. Not well. I like to think I'm looking at is: how do we get the most amount of people supporting this idea, but that's not what

rights doing something you you can. You can say that about the leper you, king of the right credit, cause they're, not doing that they're not saying how do we get the most people on board there saying? How do we get our people on board? Wiping, though what what I mean by their their successful is that they actually because their wording is so clever that they give people that actually, maybe would even agree with that, but they they raise it in a way that they even get people that wouldn't if they go The substance of it wouldn't agree with it like death tax The real level of debt tax arose like you. I am not in favour of a death. Taxicab taxes four dying. You know right in illicit suit. A quick emotional response was by the way. This is my theory today in the New York Times there was these pole figures. about. If you ask people. Do they want sensitivity, tray

Eighty six percent, yes for police, do they want people dedicated to dealing with the mental health issues? It's like eighty, some percent right and then you get done to people who support defund. The police is like fourteen percent, so you know is that they support all the things that define the police entails, but that the nomenclature so shitty that they don't supported so that that's a job. If all the tenants of the movement are good, upon and yet no one agrees with the movement of bad branding yeah yeah! that's. True, I mean I will say that that sort of some are two gun control. Eighty some thing percent of Americans believe we should close loopholes background. Try all those things. Yet none of those things happen so well, but I'm sent you know it's odes upon most to try to figure out how Yahoo just accept

No, you don't think they're opposes something that, but in fact there are in favour of a that's a big thing. Rectify right, I'm saying can be that I guess we're going appointed sisyphean its funny, ever since we had Dan, he thought who were upstream. I really just see everywhere, both its general conversations in America just very reactionary there, like the last stop yet a whole problem, and now tracing it further up the river to try to arouse a treaty symptom and not the disease. I now Ok, so he said in his book and then I heard him say at other places, but he didn't say it here, But I thought was really point. He said denial is the harp of racism and talked about that aid and use that phrase, and I just didn't stick. out to me as being really

true the idea. I mean. I really think the addiction models were so weirdly related. Dare he talks about them is but too I buy a start at freer You then yeah so from the end, I have friends. That's like every time. I point something out: it's well there's another person whose worsens like ok, yeah great near the example I always gave one I was newly sober was. I was Document are like I was melting crack and ensuring that intervening nicely. There's some It's just smoking crack. That's like why dont melted and shoot it intervening asleep. Spinning, ok, yeah yeah! It's not relative see. Now and another thing, though we didn't bring up, he did Murphy with Bernay Willa burning wrong lover. He gives you really get analogy about shame, and

being outside and the rain, and I would advise everyone to good. Listen to that on. Bernay is interview, cause it is a really I opening analogy as two ways. Going on in Y Y, you shouldn't feel. Shame about it in his book I'm not I'm only just started it, but he talk so much about Racism is not who you are it's. What you're doing I was in somebody and they said no, the marches from the beginning of the civil rights movement, none of the marches, were we You don't love us as much as you love white people, No one wants your love or your ain't. They want the policies in the system to not inordinately punish them, yeah and caused them to suffer. I don't give up really what you think in your bedroom yourself, but I ve given. much about the policies and infrastructure they make

impossible for meta. Yeah compete and I think he's saying, because people don't want to be a racist and no one wants that. But he's he's saying: you're, not you're, not a racist, the things you are doing or racists and you can do things that are anti racist, you're, not one or the other at any given moment. You could be a races in the morning and antiracist at night. It's all just actions and. in another great now, Jihad make us like. No one would described themselves is a liar, I'm alive. Yeah then. Yet all was lie, but we're not really to make the leap to SAM a liar even though might be factually true feed tell lies, you're a liar right with no one identifies have been a liar, but also, if you don't wanna, be a liar before you tell the why you think the I'm about to do this,

the Good NEWS. Is I exactly there's something I want or something I don't want to do so gap Kristen was telling me she had read something our saw, something a good and racism, its dust in the air. When you shine a light on it, you see it wrong, but it's always all around you. Ok! So talked about tribal in group. Our group and just kind of in a very basic way sociology and social psychology in group as a social group, which a person psychologically identifies as being a member by Contra, and our group is a social group with which an individual does not identify so in this definition, its a psychological, not biological, so we make our own in groups all the time you now you you can have five hundred going throughout the day. You could be

police officer at Turin Group, you could be male yeah, we female Jacobi, assigning we father in group totally, so I guess because these are common structure that we constructive in group that is inclusive to all people. Yes, but I do think the truth that really wants to bring up. I mean they do like employee bias inherited by Seize all these concepts, certainly, if someone looks like you or doesn't look like you, it only AIDS and how easy it is to make an group out group. So there always gonna. Be I disagree. I I decided early on my anger. Wasn't gonna, be people who looked like me and it's not. I mean that and floor like you, can you can transcend yeah, I'm just saying it's a very eat. You can't look at a guy and say he's a fire fire or father or sun, or anything there's nothing just if you look at the human being, there's not a ton of angry about group, since you can make about them.

Fortunately, when the easiest ones do as or that person's? Why I'm not? Why or their blackened, not black, so it just sucks that this that has very little relevance. You're genetic code is being used as the primary in group out elector, fortunate yeah and I think people deserve slackened, understanding and I think people should be expected and required to transcend, but I only you can transcended before you acknowledge it right and he said, He couldn't remember if it was three months or six months that babies look longer at people who match their king, takers. Three months, says one new born infants demonstrated no spontaneous preference for faces from either their own or other ethnic groups, three months old, And stem a significant preference for free,

he's from their own ethnic group. These results suggests that preferential selectivity based on ethnic differences is not present in the first days of life, but his learned within the first three months. The fine implies that adults perceptions of ethics. Differences are learned and derived from differences and exposure to own verses. Other race faces during early development. What's this all lose just like as much City, is, you can have around your three month old? I think so, and I also think me now, but he said, like he wrote this book forbid Debbie is like start early before you have downloaded and tell him. Babies can't read conservative in such a boner yeah yeah a book for we'll find out later that, just Exposing literal image is babies before because everyone just assumes they are taking in any information and they are o K. so I know

by now is becoming more and more apparent that black people have been affected at a much greater rate of cove? It then white people that's like now, a thing everyone's talk about, but took a long time to get there, and it says the latest overall covered. Nineteen mortality rate for black Americans is two point four times the highest rate for white and two point two times as high as the rate for Asians and Latinos two are very explanation. What do mean for me? What I mean. Agents are rarely in the same group as Latinos in blocks for any matter. No, no, no, no to play for is as high as the rate for whites and two point. Two times as high as the rate for agents at all. Tina are still out, not real everyday lives. More sense, oh ok and then the white male gun deaths. Maybe we're talking about half of those injured.

Cause you brought up like no one mentions those numbers, merely don't wanna count. Them is yeah gun, vitality, yeah, just so yeah. So very we're delineation in here it says of the thirty five thousand six. Thirty seven firearm debts, heard from January to November two thousand nineteen twelve, the one thousand, nine hundred and twelve or sixty one point. Five percent were suicides. Oh my god! that's overwhelmingly white male yeah yeah white males are two point five times more likely than black men to dive suicide, but is the always the district growing for there to be exact, yeah, yeah and its sixty one point: five percent of gun, that's so kind!

crazy. Only when we got to talk to him, he is a busy bee. He is currently today, which will be two days ago when the strap taking over Selena Gomez is Instagram. She is really in her instagram. Currently she doing a lot of people taking over her informed me. She is a hundred and sixty million followers or something she is like yeah you're, all MO covered a pretty close, and I think she either has the biggest or like top five speakers in the world is Fernando the soccer player Really I am. He has honoured me. Fifty million, let's see an arm but the whole list, a buffer zone. Christiana Ranald Renault, yes, a yeah. I don't know I'm sorry when oh yeah too,

on twenty three and then Marianna drawn day, is next with a hundred and eighty nine but Selina one sixty? So once you somethin like, let me let one hundred and seventy one point: five o, my goodness me nor the parallel is young, but also it great cheese use. It will know the rock has a hundred and seventy six rock. I follow him, but I love that she's doing that. She has eight he urge platform and she's using am, I think, a great way to her basket as all yeah.