Jon Meacham is a Pulitzer prize winning author, reviewer, and presidential biographer. Jon chats with the Armchair Expert about this early fascination with politics, attending Ronald Reagan's inauguration as a young boy and the importance of delineating historical figures from saints. Jon states his position on confederate statues and Dax asks what factors distinguished his pulitzer prize winning book from the others. The two talk about how age has affected their career outlook and they debate the impact of Christianity in the modern world.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Well come on, come on an armchair expert experts on expert Monica Mouse. What would you feel like a few went, my body, Would you be excited to be small full of yes, there's something that would do if we thought he switched yeah I've run the closest mirror get naked. That's. Ok, now John, doesn't want to be a part of that John Medium is our guest. Today you probably seen him on Bill MAR that's where we ve seen him a tiny tiny. He's a writer or if a presidential biographer, a former executive, editor and executive vice president Random House, he is a contributing writer to the New York Times Book review.
A contributing, Edwards Time magazine in a former editor in chief at muse. We also want the two thousand nine Pulitzer Prize for American Lion, Andrew Jackson in the White House. He also, as a new book, called the hope of glory reflections on the last words of Jesus from the cross and an exciting five part documentary podcast series hope through history, so check hope through history and please enjoy historian John meets him. We are Porto by legacy. Botz legacy boxes, a super simple mail in service to have all your home movies and pictures digitally preserved on a thumb, Dr Dvd or the cloud of home projects at you, ve been putting off. What's on your list clean out the grudge, digitizing, aging tapes and photos legacy box can help you digitally de clutter. It's the easiest way to check off this important shore, because Legacy box takes care of everything. I had a bunch of this stuff old photos. Some films, VHF tapes, you gotta digitizing because they deteriorate yeah every minute
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John. I don't God where we joining you are you and I in your home I am I'm in Nashville Tennessee, I've been socially distancing for half a century, so this is not that different from me that you're nice, practice. Exactly now, are you in the middle of a book to work? No, I'm composing running a little biography of Jean Louis then going back to my Magnum Opus, which is a biography of Dolly and James Madison Toggle between centuries yeah, and how is your cause you been at this for a while, and I have to imagine the digital revolution, for you has some saved your car lot a mile he used to drive all around and go to what like hidden libraries in small towns and stuff. Like that, it's interesting it has made basic infrastructure.
they're all research easier. It has put a higher premium on those kinds of small libraries, ah collections that have not reached the digital landscape, and one of the tests I always try to meet is? Can I bring some evidence to the party that hasn't been there before to my favorite system co guys are Mccullough Course, Norway's an care o increasingly did you read, tighten you must of oh yeah, sure, now sure yeah, so the probably my favorite Stork Biography ever written my best churn out story which is really about ride is. I was interviewing Dan rather at a public event in Nashville a couple years ago. And before we went out, he said I want to talk to you about Hamilton must ensure on Jefferson biographer, but I have thoughts sure and we get out there and we're talking along.
About you know. Eight nine minutes in here were wrong. The key point here is- and I think she can only right before the time no problem- didn't again and then he did it again. I thought Jesus Christ. thanks I'm rancher now and then at that point you get so far past where your buses run, you can't fix it, honour percent so and forty of the hometown crowd and so enough people kind of got it. We were all basically enabling dance shut, my doing nothing, all! That's! That's fantastic! I'm glad that you just went along with it Because what you know online wine, what are you gonna do see spinner he served his country who took it now. I really want to read your Jefferson Book, the art of power, because I have read so many books where Jefferson
the position, is kind of an hour saw admit, particularly right, the John Adams books. I came to dislike Jefferson through those books here. What are yours? Posters of David did the right thing. I wrote that book actually in part because I'm he'd been chased by Mccullough for Eight hundred pages in Adams, Rhine Head hit him twice in Hamilton in Washington and if you're gonna be chased by anybody you don't wanna, be chased by Mccullough. Internal right right, so I thought exactly what your you know, you're, the son of a bitch may have been a son of a bitch, but you get. He wrote the declaration of independence for Christ's sake, I'm so, let's get him some credit. My argument about Jefferson is he's not a hypocrite. Any more than the country was hypocritical at the time and his views were not that far out of the mainstream and a few denounced them and
send him to the cross for our sins. It's actually letting the rest of the country and the rest of us off the hook. He was reflecting prevailing opinion and you can want him to be a saint, but John Adams closed down. The press and deported emigrants Hamilton wanted a british monarchical system. There are no nobody's perfect in this stuff and if you look back- and you think, oh, they all have to be these votes was rush, Murray and figures here, you're not doing justice to them and you're, not really enabling our our own time to learn from them. Do you learn more from centres or from saints we learn more from centres which is good, given the relative proportion of the centres of saints in the evaluation yeah, I think increasingly, people want their heroes to be flawless and it's getting increasingly frustrating from my point of view, which is like none.
These people are shit heads on one day. Their genius is on the next day. They are people just like all of us in. If your expectations are perfection than we're not gonna, have anyone who we study or learn from an you can't learn from it? again, there there's a reason. There's a category of saints. Those are exemplary stories that are inspiring, but saints themselves, by definition, are also human deed. I first came across this Europe of Research seriously. Thinking about it as a result of a couple of conversations with Taylor Branch wrote dubbed the definitive really
the king Biography Trilogy. If you haven't read it, it's worth it, it's a parting, the waters, pillar of fire and at cannons edge, and he was talking about how, in the second volume he had included the information from the FBI wiretaps that king had had a very vigorous extracurricular, extramarital life. Orgies and he was under some pressure. He was under some criticism, for why would you reward FBI eyes, unconstitutional surveillance sadly, this man's name- and he made an incredibly resident point with me, which is if you treat people as monuments, you limit their capacity to teach Ngos who can be that yeah
right so in in Jefferson's gaze, there's a young unmarried guy. He had a crush on a married friends, wife. He had a forty year connection with the woman he owned, I dont say relationship. He broke the most important sentence ever originally rendered in English, that we are all created equal but did almost nothing to bring the specific end of slavery about? But, as you say, if you want your figures in the past to be perfect, it's a fool's errand and I don't think it's particular useful yeah, I'm with you in fact being, Sober than the magic of this group. This twelve step group is I'm actually learning from everyone's failures to your point: learning from people's accomplishments successes, and I always sand here like via interview. Somebody who's won an academy award. I don't know how that's applicable to my
I'm not en route to win, want and that's the story over. But when I read grant- and I go- oh my god- this is phenomenal this guy is a military genius and he's as dumb as it gets when it comes to managing money and get rich quick schemes here but in every multi level marketing year, here be available, yeah, that's so refreshing in encouraging, and I think it helps people go I could have an area of my life, I'm genius, and I could focus on this thing that I'm great at and I can feel you know human about it. Well, I go sum up my basic point about the country, which sounds very grand, but it's why, when people throw up their hands about anything, combat president does as if there were somehow, another five minutes before he became president. We were a perfect country right,
and then all of a sudden were terrible at our very best. We get things right. Fifty one percent of the time at our very best, Abraham Lincoln, was basically a segregationist in a go read the first our girl. He reassures people in my native land that we have nothing to fear from him because he's not gonna touch slavery where it exists. Now then circumstances change largely military necessity is what led to the Emancipation proclamation and he becomes Moses, but he didn't start out his Moses and I sometimes get dinged for Saying oh well, everything's gonna be all right, because everything has been all right in the past and I dont mean that. But I do think If you set an unreasonable standard of judgment, then your for closing the possibility, a of persevering in hope, because
Do you have to get to one hundred percent you're always going to fall short of that? But the did the other side of that coin. Is that our best moments the moments we celebrate the moments we commemorate the moments you want to be associated with Storical e r about liberation, not captivity it's about Appomattox, it's about Selma! It's about stonewall! You standing here today if you have been the Congress, the United States and nineteen sixty four do you want to have voted for or against the Civil Rights ACT? What do you want in your obituary? I just looked up the other at the end of the millennium, so
ninety denied gallop, did a big survey about what did the public think with a most important moments of the twentieth century. The civil Rights ACT was forth. It was ahead of the Kennedy assassination. It was ahead of the moon, landing. It was ahead of world war, one, and one of the things that I try to do when I talk to people who are in public life is bass. This question are some faculty portrait test. What do you want us to think when we look at your portrait on the wall.
It actually has some salience and a chance to work, because none of them can imagine a world where we're not staring at their portrait. That's all you had since, like apparently not visiting Europe. Remember question ass himself, hourly, that's exactly what I now I'm dead curious. What was one to three world or to the atomic bomb and the Maghreb. I think I'll vague of three second, but it was. It was big right, yeah, so babe did. Sir Isaac beat the depression in terms of the, room now, maybe that's liberal guilt made as white guilt, but really matter because in so far as we can use how history is going to see you as a cudgel to make you do the right thing now go for it right, that's a great.
Yeah and in fact, I'll bring up like an empty. You know a more recent example of this in I'll say that this is a virtue I most admire, which is anyone can have an opinion. then double down on a double down and just refused to take on new data and to watch a President Obama real time, be on the wrong side of marriage, equality and then on the right side of it to me. Marriage equality. Most immaterial too, to the thing that I'm impressed with their, which is why he could publicly mileage. Oh, I was wrong on that and I've changed my mind of taking on new info and that's that's the thing that should be modeled. If I made it even further level of human complexity on that, because he didn't really believe that it was wrong in the first place Rise, correcting a cynical decision which, to some extent, is even harder than what you just said. It wasn't new data whose it was public opinion data and member was Biden who pushed him
right right by got out ahead. In fact, Obama said and kind of a condescending way, Joe Guy off alone, over his keys there on an issue of human rights. So that a me maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe the Brok Obama, I don't think I am but less it. Maybe the Morocco bomb of two thousand and eight really believed that same sex marriage, marriage equality was not right. I dont believe that I think he made a cynical decision for some swing states and then
have the guts to undo whose cynicism, but, as you say, kind of in connection to Jefferson, he was just reflecting the popular opinion at the time. It felt like a big swing to be like ok, I'm for this or against this, but I guess the thing that we want an old thing. People want perfection, but they want the people who hold a legacy to have taken those risks and been in a leader and not just a reflection to thoughts exactly right above all, we kind of forget now to some extent that a guy named Iraq, Hussein Obama succeeded a guy named George Walker, Bush, yeah yeah yeah yeah
used to think we would never see a sharper contrast in presidential type and temperament. Then George, W to Obama until Obama, Trump and now Trump has made Obama. George, W Clint everybody looked like Cicero right. They all looked roman senators now in comparison, but he was a black guy who needed to normalize himself a little bit in some swing states and that's what you do. We really believe. He doesn't believe that having a health insurance mandate is the right public policy. I don't, but he was against it in the two thousand and eight the campaign begging perfection. Isn't the thing: it's indigo exactly your point, the present. We remember most warmly- tend to be the President's who challenged their own basis so Lyndon Johnson from a segregated state on civil rights.
Was the one thing we remember about Richard Nixon, that's positive. He went to China, so I who chases out your head any do the EPA to yeah yeah, but if you can, but most folks would say, let us find gap sodality there was that there was a domestic like his health, care plan by the way, was to the left of Obama's to show you how how rapidly that the country can change. Ronald Reagan and the cold war. George, W Bush and taxes given his base. What they wanted and then said you know, know what I am wrong. We gotta do this and he's been rewarded for that in history. So it's the here's as category with no end what the president doesn't understand, which, as you know, how much time you got, but one of one of the fundamental things is, he doesn't see you have to spend some pull
local capital to benefit historically near initially putting in vanity terms, for you forget that is the right thing to do right and any right to go to your point. It's a leader, but people do reward those who challenge their basic assumptions? Ok, walk through your life a little back. That's what we do here. I'm sure you listen all the episodes religiously. Of course, you're from Chattanooga. I am and dad was in the Vietnam WAR He was in the Vietnam. I, like that phrase you arrive at now, momentary got divorced, they did and you went, live with Grandma Grandpa, Granpop, yeah and then he your grandfather Grandaddy. He had daily chats about local politics with all his pals in you just kind of hung around and were absorbing all that right and he wrote letter to Ronald Reagan? When you are eleven and got invited to his creation. Ok, I just want to say
What are you and a handful of savage it's hard to do something on a planet with seven billion people that put you in a group of five, and I got imagine you just want to five eleven year old, who wrote a letter to Ronald right, yeah yeah. Well, I appreciate that the letter part is bit of urban legend of all. That's a programme, but do so the truth is even worse, So the truth is that my grandfather was a judge in Chad, Lookup, probably when I was six, he started taking me to court with him, and I was excited because they had a machine downstairs. One of the old pull the lever, vending machines are sharp and you could get peanuts and say you could pull the thing and you go and you get the paint I'd send I get a coke during the recesses, so I bought the recesses of great and I still don't quite understand how they did this in turn.
but work day, but it is absolutely true that the district attorney, sometimes the mayor of a couple of judges. There was a state Supreme Court justices around the sheriff was round a little bit. They would, at ten o clock morning, so why they weren't working earn their salary which we were paying them. They would go to. We had this old downtown hotel. It's still. There called the Red House and they would sit around and have a cup of coffee and tell lies, basically they sometimes the minute. I'm club and so to me with politics to me they were people, and I am convinced that line between what I do now and and end that experience the Reagan thing? Was I've never looked up the date of it, but sometime in the fall of seventy nine Reagan, gave sixty minutes interview and I bet it was with MIKE Wallace
Equality was an old pal of Nancy's family in Chicago. One of the many weirdness is about Nancy Ray is she used to talk about how her father was a doctor and she had doctors hands, but he was her step, Father la ok don't worry about. The men were Mendel P section of the genetic NGO Yang, and I was just fascinated by it. I can't age, and it was the substance. I got a lot to say what the great embargo of that year, but Reagan Geeky, communicated this kind of mystique of power and politics, and I was sort of hooked YO he had he had studied empty, are provided for in four times great seen in September, nineteen thirty six sdr comes to the eye was state fair, which was late in the summer, and Reagan is working for W H show these doing the Cubs Games is the year before he went to Hollywood and got his contract.
And he actually runs across the studio offices to catch a glimpse of Sdr as he goes by can in the motorcade and PETE. He learned from Roosevelt how a president should act, litter and in every sense of the term, so he had a way of communicating that he came already the state somehow, and so that was appealing to me, and so I volunteered I was in the sixth grade. I volunteered at the Hamilton County republican headquarters, which was next to a dive bar called Leonards that I've got a Lotta Leonard served a hamburger that was basically onions with some meet. Our number that detail very clearly anyway, so I was just around the local politics for about a year or so, and he wins a course, and I got an invitation to the inauguration and I talk to my grandmother into debt
me up there. So I was on the law of the capital on the West front, Tuesday January twenty, of nineteen. Eighty one word. really in many ways. Modern politics began while in when you were there. Did you have fantasies of being a politician or oh yeah. You did you thought you might be a politician. Oh yeah, look! If you were my white southern Pisca pay and child, you thought you go to law school. Then you get out you. For office yeah. Now the drama of my early twenties was to do everything I could to avoid going to law school. So I did like Saint Paul. I did put away childish things of eventually, but when I look back on it, I'm pretty convinced that the tributaries that led me into doing what I'm doing would be going to court with my grandfather. being around those local politicians. Then it got nationalized and even internationalized by both the Reagan. Experience
and then I read Churchill's war memoirs at a weird age. I was a really exciting kid, as you can tell Macao as early staff and all that boy, Manchester Bob American? Caesar and the last lie and those books are hugely important ear. Clearly, a unique boy right, you are, you are you and I say that with admiration- the your are you also at the high school prom are used completely on your own path. Now I was a friend in college. He once had a great line. He saw captured me as well, as I think anybody ever did, which was that I was like Frazier Crane in cheers I would be dismissive and critical of the madness in and go along and do it anyway harsher. was a really astute and insight. So now I was now big ass laid out his sleep. I wasn't quite as where's I'm making myself sound in the EU could make a good case that I was like the boy in the bubble meets C span, but it's over it's alive
more complicated because you're roughly the same ages, my brother and I'm wondering my. I grew up in a room with kiss murals on the wall that my mother painted for him like his lay ass King S, where, where were they add on your radar, they were now, They were not high on those these freely on following the strong, my wall Was- and I have it right over Here- was of George Herbert Walker, Bush and Ronald Reagan at the nineteen eighty Detroit Convention, with the line I'm is now ok all right what that, so, that's really specific. Now
really does allow. So when I was a freshman at school called so want which I love, I got an internship to work covering a congressional race, partly because I knew the people who are running back home in Chad Number and the way I think of it now is. I walked into that newsroom, and that was that it had everything right. You could write, which gave you some measure of control. You had a ticket to anything. It was all about all the things I thought about and read about since those days when I was playing the peanuts yeah. You end up working at the chair new good times. I love how you say Geneva by the way I'm gonna practice in our four Monaco time. Yet can you do you can't go? Should nuke noticed General Chandra, Nook, Chattanooga, my twelve euro
beg pardon me for this. Do so you have that in common all round about right, the parallels will not stop thereby well and a twelve year old. Ok, so you end up working we're gonna fast word. Now you end up working at Newsweek in D C and become the executive editor and the executive vice president, ultimately random house, and I'm wondering throughout this time. You know you're bound to write historical. Novels, or are you what what's your game plan at that point? I didn't really have one case of forever: a rat boarding a lot of things. in shops right so daily Journalism, weekly journalism, hard back books, ivory I for the future. He had yet old, advocates door to door, ferment, yeah, yeah, so pretty soon launch this thing called Gutenberg is going.
but I was lucky in that every thing sort of FED in to tell these stories about the foil bowls of the powerful, both journalism men, just the basic reading, getting to know a lot of these people that I just been known from Afar President Bush being the best example, I guess I guess the other sort of Rosebud moment was in the summer of eighty six thank kiss was on tour, probably archer. But I'd I've been to so many shows at that point
new, the new, the drill such at some time off from that and read two books. One was robber, pin warrens all the kings, men and the other was written by Evan Thomas and Walter Isaacson called the wise men and it's about dean address in April. Harriman Robert loves about these six friends who were part of foreign policy establishment under Truman and Eisenhower and Kennedy, and I loved both those books so much that I finish them and then I started reading them again. So I read each twice that summer so I'm a case of I read these things. I love them so much. I always had this kind gunners voice in the back my head. Could I possibly play in that stadium right and, as you start writing these books. You write several
before you write Andrew Jackson, american Lion, which one you the Pulitzer, do you see that is markedly better than the others. Are I'm curious what you think you did right in that book? That's a very good question. I have no idea, I'm a terrible judge of my own work. And is not false modesty issues. Sometimes I think I'll do something, and I think man this is gonna, make em said, and you know the male man will even notice and then I'll do something without thinking about it and our get forty letters so right, I guess I'm just not it and that those that that's bumping journalistic me. They're. U way between so my two outcomes are I'm the greatest if the common to ever live- and I am the worst piece of shit- how they let me on a show that there's no middle ground for me- I'm either God or the devil. In my assessment, you know
I don't want in any way harm your sense of self, but I don't think that's a unique You were I want. I thought I might be near yeah yeah. I do. I do veer, but I have you found their salary, you, forty five, ok, ever found that it. You are easier on yourself to some extent to day than you are say ten years ago, yeah thousand percent as I've gotten a handle on my You go, and I realise that the things that create sustainable kind of self esteem aren't really related to the results, and I definitely the thing I now mine for self esteem and pride is: is just diligence and hard work, so I say I'm in the I'm in the shop and work business, not the results, business in egos just result, business right to put things come to minor that I have found. I am radically different than I was ten years ago in terms of the emotional swings, and I don't you think it's the medication escape stay.
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euro of Sell, my hero of national arrested forty five times fractured skull, Jesus close to an american saint, as if anyone I've ever met gap in the classical sense of that in the way that the early church defined it would, was not necessarily your character, but your willingness to shed blood and suffer for the faith itself, the Madame third years ago, the whenever around him. I just think this is the most incredible person is walking the planet right now and I have always thought you know what I should write this and so.
I was with him. I took my family down. We were in Selma, Montgomery and Birmingham right before Covet struck as the anniversary of bloody Sunday. He doesn't annual trip down there. You walk across the Pettus Bridge with John Lewis. It's like walking at Normandy with Eisenhower, sure literally yeah, because that is a domestic war story, the civil rights Movement and what happened at Selma. What happened at Montgomery? What happened to Birmingham? What happened in Jackson, Mississippi is as important to the american character in fate as what happened, Add Normandy or Bunker Hill Poor Appomattox, so I decided I'm going to write this book is going to do it John's sick he's got cancer, he's fighting it he's eighty years old and this may not be a radical rien for protection of John Lewis.
If you know a lot about him, you may not come away dazzled by new information, but I have an argument I want to make about this man and I'm lucky enough that I have world enough in time to do it. Sums gonna write this book and if you like it, that's great, and if you don't worry, you know I will move on yeah yeah yeah. I could no more have said those sentences in that order. Ten years ago that I could have flown, and I love to say, that's maturity. I think it's just age. Well, I don't know about for you, but for me a huge help in that has been two children as I as I had nothing to focus on, but my and occasionally I'd give my wife some of my thoughts. I is all important, and I was the only measure of how this experience was going, but then ones
two other humans entered the pitcher. I had to break out of my own narcissism in everything about me. I got a little less important in the most healthy way imaginable, nor I totally get I wish I could give credit to them, but, but I was I was the the old way for all time, while they were relates, have an eighteen year old, fifteen year old in a twelve year old, ah, but absolutely bill. Buckley once said, every man should write a book plant a tree and have a son, I'm I'm I'm done. Workman I really did sir, while half your transferable credit, my friend, so how do you pick and we're going to get to your new book? How do you pick so interjection? Here's what I nobody interjection. In a lot of its Roy alike. Will you do all right. He's. One of our own presidency, like actually was in a dual ended,
Ever you mongers, Wheeler Cheesy, put no White House, you wanna people to build a grab, a piece of cheese when they visited well somebody Sacha, Ganem Mitchum from Vermont. I think set it down and so what are you going to do? If you get it's? It's like a it's like a regift, Right, ok, ok, ok, so it was like. The statue of liberty had just arrived yet decide fine, put it out there and maybe maybe they'll all eat it ugh. But what was it about him that that made you on fire took, as I mean you're gonna have to imagine. You're spending know how long it takes you to write these books clearly over a year right. Maybe a couple years Jackson to five Bush took seventeen sets a different, okay. So this is longer than many many relationships people have in. So I got to imagine that you might get on fire for them for a minute, but you
really be able to assess out is this is a sustainable interests. It's gonna be years. That's exactly the way to put it is. It cannot be a single date because you do live with them through thick, and then they also, I have found that will answer your question directly though there is, I did Jackson when I did it was. We were coming out of Founders Sheikh. Move the Mc Collar had done. John Adams, Joe Alice, had done several really good books. Walter Isaacson had done Benjamin Franklin. Everybody was walking around in frock coat with with powdered wigs and then in sort of the march of Time popular mind. Would you really go from the founding Euro to Lincoln right, yeah, yeah emitted and then its d day, and then we're done so I thought who's. The most important
Eric and between the founding. In Lincoln S, Jackson he's a fantastic character. I sometimes think I should have saved Jackson from our retirement because he was again in the income of president makes him look like Seneca, but he was temperamental. He was self. Made. He came from the lowest wrong of white society, never knew his father Z, the only red headed president. We ve had Jefferson was gonna Red headed other Jackson, a good had a hare. Actually, you John Kerry Canna hair. Ask I may ass. Do you collect locks of presidential hair? We had some one on here. Who did that? I don't I don't really have anything to add a few of my simple denial. I am a lot and I have a lot of weird stuff. Bob Dole once gave me one of his button hooks one
Thank you. It goes of his arm is injury. So so that's that's about is weird, as it gets bogged owes a great american and still going we ran into my son was made and the door called up, couple days later say thank you for something that Bob Dole here, Sir we'd love to come, see you as there's a to get on the calendar when your ninety whore, that's my bob go impression into your pleased someone who refer to themselves in the third person as much as Bob Dog. I really don't think so. I love it made it so charming a so great cause was a big lefty. I was young and a big lefty, and even I was like a like the skylight I, like you know you. Could you know why you liked him? If I may put out in a different life in an alternative universe, he could have been Letterman yeah. I totally great easy. I
and it was all, was all shield and sword right because he needed to distract from the arm. Oh I don't know, I don't know he was quite as ironic as a kid, but when he came back, the sense of humour was about if you're laughing you're not staring interesting that's a comedians, while with me it's interesting! Jackson was immensely important. Neva merit can see defended aftermarket slavery was an architect of the perpetuation of the two original american sends, but soup circle back to what we are talking about.
He was never outside the mainstream, and so what I dislike about the not the revisionism, that's great. As that was debated, all you want, but we try to exile him to a corner somewhere and I don't care whose, on the twenty dollar bill by the way that talk about a pyrrhic fight here, but if you I think that you can put him in a historical time out and that somehow absolves the nation of its enduring tradition of injustice. Then you're kidding yourself and I think, there's a lot of elective self righteousness when it comes to Jackson and the founders, my theory, which no one paid any attention to, but I'll will launch it here again. People ask me a lot about confederate monuments minster.
yeah. My view is, if you were devoted to the american experiment of a journey towards a more perfect union. However imperfect you may have been, then you should commemorated if we decide on other merits in public places, but if you were taking up arms against the order that actually produce the thirteen fourteen and fifteen amendments that Does the civil rights ACT that produce the country that we still for all of our napping as we want to defend, then you shouldn't. So, if Robert E Lee had had his way, there would not have been a thirteen fourteen or fifteen men, and so you want to put him on a court house lawn. I don't quite see that you know there was fairly reasonable constitution in Alabama from eighteen, sixty six to one thousand nine hundred and one one thousand nine hundred and one they got back together. They re legislated white supremacy
and really nineteen hundred do about nineteen. Twenty nine. I think, as the period most. Like ours, in that sense, live immigration, a lot of reaction to immigration, the resounding of the plan two founding the interplay cp to try to fight back against Jim Crow, the narrow victory for suffrage in nineteen, twenty Wilson outlawing civil descent. During the first World war. There's a lot in that period that I think is unfolding and echoing even now now your fascination with George Herbert Walker. it makes sense because you'd now I know you had a poster of him at a young age outside,
one thing here: I'll imposes a pitcher with George W Bush and people go crazy in their sandy's guilty of war crimes and everything. Here's my limited experience. I went you a resort in Africa that we went during the rainy season. It was completely closed down this wonderful, placing Gaeta my wife and I- and we to hang with all the people at work there. There is no other people and they were telling about all these amazing people that had come through like bill gates, had been there a couple months. Reform and up the whole place then has gone through list release in these guys independently, six or seven guys Thomas is, as you know, the coolest guess we ever had was. Was George bush. He sat with us every night and chatted so late at night he was just the most friendly likeable guess we ve ever had and of course I was politically opposed to him. This is the father of the sun, the sun, the sun,
and I just thought: oh yeah, you know what the guys are. Nice guy you want to have. Someone really is talk to the staff at a hotel if you're their favorite person. That's ever come through. That says something about you absolutely right. Now that I met the senior President Bush in ninety eight, so I was in college through most of the senior press. wishes term and, like you, I think my roommate was a guy from Lynchburg Tennessee named Jack Daniels I was a little fuzzy on a color, for I had this very ninety. Ninety two vision of bushes, Dana Carving, the out and added TAT China. I've been around for about twenty minutes when I thought oh, this is why he became president.
Does enough tumultuous turbulent and fallen world. He communicated this kind of ineffable sense that you know what, if there are tough decisions to be made, but war and peace, I'm a pretty good bet ya that communicated that studies of the Father and what one of these are fascinated me was how, in a popular government in a media, saturated age, there could be such a gulf between the way he was and the way even someone like me, who spends a lot of time, thinking and reading about this stuff, could have such a different view. So one of the reasons I wanted to do the book was to try to explain that George W Bush I met him is running for president, but got to know him really at the end right when he left office, and I was in the homestretch of the book about his dad
and he was very generous. He was now he was sceptical. I'd been it the magazine that it called his father, a wimp famously than nineteen. Eighty eight, they saw me as is left lefty media figure, but he he answered every question. What you saw was what you got and maybe you wanted to see something else, and maybe you want to something else, but here this capacity better than almost any one. I've ever known cling real people to ask the hard questions dress the elephant in the room. What he's got a charm about em right? That was kind of Madame of Teflon. In that way, yeah. Why is tricky to say decides to launder because he left with a twenty one per
approval rating growth so that any I presented a country. We forget me now, because now everyone looks back at eminence, like oh, he was gray, but ever no one on already he gave rise to the first black president. He was universe yeah, we were disappointed, but this why there is a difference between journalism and history, because I published the book but his father twenty years after he became president, has that's about the earliest that you can make it consider judgment so here is a great example ripped from the headlines of this. If you were writing a book about George W Bush and let's say you had published it in the fall of twenty nineteen, I bet you a box of Cigars that the word pandemic would not have been in the index today
He looks far seeing he pulled together response manual. We didn't pay attention to it, but it's what makes what I do to me fascinating is things that you might not have even taken note in one moment, loom incredibly large, the next. It's one sign of how complicated the presidency is. Arguably the most important thing: Bush forty one dead domestically was something that passed by with very little debate, which was the Americas. Abilities at almost every building in America has George Herbert Walker. Bushes thumb print on it, because a republican president in our lifetimes signed a big government bill that ordered every building in America, too,
a different and big blue assigned in the fall of of ninety ninety, which right efforts, diamond invaded Kuwait, obey paid much attention to it. In his mind, it was about fair play and part of what the presidency does. Is it on all these aspects of life and in some ages you noticed in some ages you don't and the point of his debates is to go to a point I mean W looks very, very good right now, Harry Truman same thing happened to trim. They all want what happened to Truman to happen to them. Truman left Washington in January, one thousand nine hundred and fifty three with about a twenty five percent approval rating is all because of some scandals. Nobody, even I can't remember to even the dorks, can't remember, as the decades went by a couple of things happened? It turned out that contain worked. Nato was important. The Marshall plan paid off
and through Vietnam, and into Watergate. It turned out we kind of liked President's who were really blunt. Ok, I want to talk about your new book. The hope of glory reflections on the last words of Jesus from the crossing before we even launch into that's what I'm trying to as I try to do, which is a bad habit in, but I do it is I'm trying to draw conclusions. It seems to me that you straddle a little bit of left and right in think it's an accident. You live in Nashville, which I was get a good vibe down there. I also do in Austin, I always say about Austin. That's my city, it's a liberal hillbilly, so it's like you're still on a truck, but you know you want gay folks to get married. That's that's basically mean a nutshell and I get that vibe in Tennessee you, but there's like a nice contingent of kind of some straddle few. Are tattoos to the game,
yeah, I got it right right right right, so didn't. Are you straddle or all do you find that you're not fitting neatly into a box or you one or the other? I don't fit it. I don't know. I have voted for presidency, both parties, I plan to continue to maybe because of the way I spend my days. I just don't, leave anyone or any side has a monopoly on incite the ivory, and I have to say that some are another because I'm not a partisan. I the I therefore no more than part as I don't. I don't mean that the system does not work. If you don't have the these forces and counterforces pulling on each other. I very much in the U Reinhold Neber history is tragic. Best we can do is fifty one percent, it or Parker boots the line. A king, Euston Obama use
The arc of a more universe is long long, but have been stored. Justice, if you don't have people who are insisting that history swerve we're gonna make it Ben did all right. So if you don't have Bernie Sanders and Jean Louis and dare I say it, the folks on right as well, then the dialectic doesnt work. My own view is, I try to be data driven. I think that there's a totally understandable, but a largely irresponsible short hand that people fall into that one parties virtuously other parties not- and I just stone- I dont think the fact support that yeah. Now I gotta say like you watch the Mccain document around, but but I was like my god. Here's a guy who I didn't agree with, and a single thing
I can see and feel viscerally the integrity, and I admire it in the times where he stood up against his own group. You know you can't deny that Georgia is zennor. Mccain is a great example of this. I think President Bush senior present bushes. You know he guy Give up his presidency because of an economic decision he made in the fall of nineteen ninety when he decided to break the no new taxes pledge. He told his diary. He said I'm going to be dead meat, but it's the right thing to do and he had gained Charlie's people pounding on him, but he really believed if he did the right thing. People like us in the fullness of time would come to appreciate it, and I'm delighted you know he's not live to see that yeah yeah. Ok, so I bring up the straddling point because there is aid,
Ariel type were if youve written a book about Jesus in your ear Livin in Tennessee. I'm thinking one thing, but then I know how interested you are in the civil rights movement. Then I guess that's interesting. So what would drew you to the hope of glory? Well, I'm a bow was educated entirely in we're just schools, so I went to an episcopal Montessori which skier redundant ass. We think about a nominally protestant secondary school and in a pistol college. I think that in this is speaking both from a faith in a historical perspective, I think, if you're making a list to go back to our list mode of the most important things that have happened in recorded history. What happened in Jerusalem around the year? Thirty three is, as
port and, if not more so than almost anything else, including Gutenberg, including the enlightenment, including world war, two, including the splitting of the atom, the weapon icing of science. It determines how we tell time tonight in my view can believe what you want to believe, but we were, we know or about Jesus historically that we know about Socrates into the gospels were not biographies. It's not like Mccullough was got the interview. They were written for Evangel listing purposes, but that doesn't mean they're not useful. Historically, and I been the very practical reason I did, it is years ago, seventy years ago, when we lived in New York to the wonderful parish, Saint Thomas, with avenue and we were regulars and the director asked me to do it at three. or service on good Friday, where you you, give seven sermons in one's. Thank so like Guantanamo for
I believe that it is you pound them over their head. I was gonna, be compared you may be seal weak, the exact a parasite so I thought I'd deliver them and it's funny talk about a straddle. So my view in this is very much goes. What you're talking about about. If I produce something that I think has integrity, you take it or you leave it. This is fully within that sound. I believe that the christian story continues to shape us and fundamental ways. It has a greater capacity to do good and evil if we do it right in You can see the story if you see the story to what we think of broadly, as the religious right in this country Then you are unilaterally disarming and handing this great tradition over to people
who actually are not about the sermon on the mouth, but a really just about the Supreme Court, and so as someone who we got a call myself. Basically, I kind of progressive believer. I declined to hand Jesus over to Franklin Gram and the rest You know it's funny, as we were very critical myself included on these quote moderate Muslims. We want them to be very vocal against the Extreme right where works, affecting them to stand up and say none, no another they do not represent us either doesn't seem to be a ton. answer bill. They laid on Christians to stand up in a non aggression, but I am aware of the messaging and doesn't seem to sink up neatly with any of the message that I feel like is what made the book sustainable for two thousand years to begin with a men brother of a yes, that's exact.
What I'm saying there's up before century, a roman writer noted Christians do just come to power. When Constantine converted and the writer said, but surely there's not simply one path to so great a truth, and I totally believe that morasses my path now, eighty its self evidently is politically historically coal, truly important. To our allocation of resources and our dispositions of heart and mind in this country. and so the reason I did this was to say. I think you can accept the truth of this story without joining blindly one temporal political faction or another, all the mysticism in supernatural elements aside I'll go okay, I to acknowledge there was this guy Jesus
aye Sir Jesus crystals or whatever he was killed, Pontius Pilate did order that God this guy's famous, I mean for two thousand years. If I just look at the fact like, could there ever be a figure like that I mean I dont think for any number of reasons there could it be ever again it is astounding that one human being regardless is being talked about today in a computer. What it? What do you think it is about that the timing of it the context that created this kind of indelible story? This will be a count. Recalled I answer. Ok, good. The reason we are talking about him is because that handful of believers were willing to die because they actually believed he got back up. If he had simply been
another rabbi or profit who had been murdered and left in a tomb both literally and figuratively. We wouldn't be having this conversation, the radical nature of the resurrection story, which was so real to them that they were willing to be persecuted, chased out of Jerusalem, stoned, change through the trajectory of that religious narrative and made it both a cultural and historical one? There yes and I think it's better than even that. It really happened is because why I'm gods earth so to speak? Would you make up something so stupid well, well, you don't know nano. First of all, they tell the story in the weakest possible way the women come and tell them. Women couldn't testify. The last person is mouth. He would put testimony
Did you wanted to be accepted to the broader world, would be a woman in the Middle EAST of the first century. They dismissed it as an idle tale and I just think why on earth would you, as a believer would Tell the story in a way that so openly undermines your authority if there weren't some historical basis, because that's the way it really happened. Well, I can easily come up with a motive, so I've got this group of people. They followed this man, the man said he was God. If the God is just ordered to be killed by Pontius Pilate and he just sits there and he's dad, it didn't prove to be a god. So it's a very simple conspiracy for me to launch to go like hey. We know he was God now
didn't shake out. You don't seem, very God, like you just killed by man. Now if he had risen, that would confirm I mean right. You can see the motive for constructing that. He did something that only a guideline Nobody. I see what you're saying, but if you do some terrific scholarship on this, in my mind, is not terrific scholarship on it. But I've read the terrific Scott. Ship is like watching an exercise video, but not exercising nearing out of it. Just nobody was looking for a human atoning resurrected sacrifice, so they weren't speaking in any VA knack killer. That would have been plausible sure. It was a one There was a total one off stage arm sure. If you dare We are supported by liquid ivy. I love liquid ivy. I've been using it
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Well, you don't have to figure everything out on your own legal zooms. Online resources make it easy to get started in if you need to speak to an attorney their independent turning network. Is there to guide and advise you legal zoom? Isn't a law firms a you? Won't have to worry about expensive buildable hours, adding up take an important step for your family today. Go to legal zoom dot com to get started on, alas, will living trust and more or find out how you can speak to an attorney for advice on the right state plan. Legal zoom or life meets legal there's a big book in the MID mid since in the twentieth century about Jesus the salesman. They argue as the best sales whenever with Addy I'd I'd. I think it's riveting. I think it's yo we get. We could spend the next three years talking about this. I think that the durability
of the Christian story A owes an immense amount to the durability and power of the story of Israel, which is in highly about tragedy and indifference, but it all requires a kind of assent to tragedy. Because of all this is true. Why pick This guy on the edge of an empire and then go deep again, so he go egos deep force in biblical term six thousand years and now he's been deep again for two thousand, my heart, so we are. What is it the Poles him up? The hours I know is: Jesus is Bigfoot death now, there's
as you would like. The message gene is so profound. I do think what he was saying: love your enemy turn the other cheek. These are incredibly beautiful in profound sentiments that he should be celebrate. For doing even need the mystical aspect of it for him to just be an incredible philosopher that once live like Socrates or Plato I mean. Could his message must be that profound that that was worthy of being paid, Delong generation to generation- yes, intellectually, clinically what you just said of course, but the reason we are talking about here, Is our technology and of what is not a particular regional message, a high easier those of them? Because, because of this extraordinary story right- and so your book is really it's about the last thing He said it's it's a spiritual exercise. There are seven start middle ages.
Seven sentences tat. The church believes he D spoke from across here. If you want, be absolutely historically rigorous, very hard to talk when you're being. Crucified. Imagine here, particularly in good King James English. I don't know how you say: oh shit, How can this be over was beaten tones but yeah. It's father forgive them find out what they do. So I immediately that's the first one. I immediately take issue with it because that doesn't make any sense cuz. They know what they did right. They know what they did and if it's part of a salvation history that this has to happen, everybody should be happy over there doing so. The first chapter of this book- is we're, starting with a problem. It everything you know. I've said the last seven minutes. Did the gospels or problematic the story is problem. This is not a Jesus.
me, yes, I know for the Bible tells me so, but it is at the heart of western history. It is the story that has affected shaped change more alive, than any other by think, and so my judge in this- is a lot of people are going to gather at the foot of the cross, no matter what so, let's take advantage of that yeah Try to understand what happened. Why we think what happened may or may not have happened and apply those lessons as well as we can, but I think that this secular tendency to try to move religion out of the public square is again a kind of fools errand At the same time, I think the Fox news thing about oh Christianity's under assault is genuinely insane right. There is no denying the impact of this faith: western civilization and then
collateral thereafter. My argument is: let's understand, yes, said now: here's my question in this: where we go all the way back to you have twelve year old daughter. So I was in a meeting recently. I just became aware out of nowhere cuz. I don't spend a lot time in churches, how little role there is for women in the religion and- and I would say that is a real hurdle going forward, where you know gods a man in God created a sunny, didn't send a daughter back and then all the apostles, el I mean you really have- is mom, and then you have the hooker Mary Magdalen. How does he girl or ie, but she they're bringing out in my room. She was born for me, ribbon then tempted him enough. I'm curious how Christianity incorporates women, you know. Do you see? That is the initial like it. If I was a young girl, I'm sitting there being explain this whole religion, garlic will what what they'll did we do it what's my role in this and why? Why would I joined them?
that seems to have ignored my existence right. One fact check just for you, Mary Magdalen, actually was not the prostitute. The woman the well was opposed to marry. Magdalen was basically bankrolling Jesus. Ok on the South, America and here's a bearded defend the very few women there are. I come from a part of the forest that actually is the antidote to white dog, very reasonable question. You raise the episcopal church now I know what percentage it is, but a huge percentage of the clergy is female. Ah, we were earlier shown that, in terms of from the seventies forward, I don't think my daughter's feel gender, alienated, but as probably because of our particular tradition, will I can I can I own my own sides. I work in Hollywood. If you look at all of our movies Oliver movies up until twenty years ago, our written by man alone ball.
Males are the Leeds and even if you look at like the days wine and roses. I mean it's ostensibly about a woman dealing with alcoholism, but no, it's really about Jack Lemmon having to deal with his wife with alcoholism, and so it just it illustrates the nature of people write what they know. and if the only people writing your men, these are the stories you get gap gap. I think that's the energy behind your question is widely shared. I think it's gonna go back to the political realm on this. My girls go to a girl saw, and I was the post election. Day, speaker and twenty sixteen, so you can imagine Jeez about draft. I didn't you re done,
on which lie at last minute. I would imagine so I was I was gonna show up and declare. I was go where a white suit it was done with the air of the landing and, of course, and the I cannot receive power is where I land on this. We do not know even now and thirteen years in the significance of Iraq Obama, the White House for the icon, not graffiti of power, As soon as we can get a woman there near, and otherwise I almost don't care who it is Diana last year we had a caveat together, a fine large, not the girl, from Alaska by airlines who has no exact. John Madame's only think that I have often thought that by late October we wish deepen.
I can Hanoi, they were a nicer to him. So Yankee be right. It requires a deeply conscious that guy Find myself? So might my son is says a lot of the same interests I do and he's the oldest and I have to watch. You know when we're at dinner that he had. I don't just you know, run off talking about. You know the future of NATO, a cuz, no one cares, but but you know that you'd that you don't somehow or another of the right word gender rise conversation and topics yeah and thus power and although it is a matter of its just vigilance, yeah yeah, I agree out of just curiosity in dumb having to see oneself in a story. I think not even like I'm judging everyone in the past. I have no area around. I just more like in a very selfishly
motivated incentivize why you know? How do you incorporate gals into something that is so historic and is what it is? Well I'm dealing with this right now in early american history, because I M writing half a biography about Dolly Madison, who was the highest ranking woman in american public life. For sixteen years really time. I know nothing about Dolly Madison. I will take care of them. I may not be interested, but it will be available. Like cow exit, I feared my bridge I'd, say the literature of early feminists thought you can master it right. It's not viewed
it's, the vindication of the rights of women. It's a woman named Judas sergeant Murray, who was an american journalist. So I believe that the issues you are raising our very much on my mind because I'm trying to without making her into Betty Free Dan and of Hoopskirt, I am trying to try to understand if you were an educated women in elite circles at the beginning of this continent, all national experience. What would you have seen as your role? and what would you have seen as the possibilities of transcending it? And I know the question- I don't have the answer. Yet. Let's talk in six months, I love it. I love it, I will listen. We we enjoy you so much on bill. Mar worry were way for you to talk about that book with bill. I know he loves. He really a pre, the nicest
I have a passive aggressive way anyone's ever said to me was, I think it was I give up on the air. Not you see it they'd. Some offhand comment about how idiot Religious people were as though we I'm religious. He said yes, but I can't figure out. Otherwise you seem fine You know where that you know where that show a shot. Don't you in the prices right studio is it I didn't know. It's got that big wheel and all that is all crammed up against. all I know the guy. It's really hard to spin Eric holder, and I try to spinning It might have been locked, did not move. That was so, I hope, again, so called spin. The wheel in the wheel is five stories in it weighs forty tonne. So obviously no one can actually Spinnet, which became this whole thing. One
started coming like there's nothing rewarding about someone just touching it. Then it takes off the bay of that kind of like they're moving it with no human good and then, when it spends its directly behind me, a five story. It's like the fucking Chicago worlds, fair and I'm waiting. for his jumping fall on the timing and I'm like? Will it be Buster Keaton and I look like made genius why Lamb perfectly between spoke or will it be? I will just disappear under it. Yeah probably yeah yeah towards I've. I've been the math We others more service area, not service area, building, on the edge on what a pleasure talking to you and please keep going Bill MAR and keep riding, and keeps arriving on their national nice. I'm here. Let me know our great talking. You don't you tipsy Ivan,
and now my favorite part of the show the fact check. With my soul made Monica Badman. We were just again going over the whole phenomena with the Perry. I can't just rehashing law standing one in my car that had Fleming Ed. and accidents Sippar there, and I certainly man. I thought there must be booze him here. That's how she's scream so I don't get it my mouth gaff, what's really funny as all those thoughts that we ve now talked about four hours yeah, they all happen in two seconds, because it was all straightened out so really quickly. It's true, but in that microsecond I have like a whole world fantasy about your life is someone who-
links in the morning and hides Perrier, and then I of course like how do you feel about that was evaluated all in like manner, sandwiches, crazy d think unanimously an evaluation is accurate. Tie. You really feel cause real feelings. Take some time to process will certainly make him up. Solve but yeah. You ve never liked my feelings on it, which is so interesting because is basically the feelings I would desire for you to have for me. Yeah now dad I gotta lotta days you said you wouldn't care? I said I thought well that's what she is, in doing and she's completely normal and seems to have no wreckage or on manage ability, but so who a minus What is the right man, alcohol, when you should drink it? Now, if you had like wreckage in problems, then that's a different conversations:
earlier, but I know you and you don't have problems and wreckage and unmanageable d. So I was just like all my good. Is she drinks? morning and none of that stuff, but Firstly, I have unmanageable billowy. If I'm drinking in the morning like maybe you aren't seeing it, but that means there's something going I mean you say: addiction is just regulating her emotion, the air, so obviously I'm doing man if I'm drinking in the morning year in year out of a period, but I realized don't know that I am unilaterally against addiction, where hull, Gmbh unilaterally against people being unhappy being miserable. and demoralized in shame ridden. I am against all those things there's some anomaly that, luckily I guess Frank Sinatra right that guy just woke up and he drank and he was drunk all the when he loved it needn't care and it didn't seem
bother anyone. I wasn't married norm, mind you yeah, I'm sure. Other people and I'm sure I'm sure he was not happy. I have no clue I I would guess, You think Frank Sinatra was happy, seem very happy he's good at pretending. He was happy. Most people in the public eye are gonna pretending. No it's interesting about that group is like dean. Martin, you could see was an alcoholic like he had wreckage. He was sloppy. He be. It really was affair in him and he looked demoralized and shame ran right. It looked like he was hurting his life right, but I'm not ready to give that evaluation to Sinatra's life. I am like I'm open to those anomalies yap another type of wagon. My finger like, oh you, drink x, amount, its there's, you don't have to. I mean you, don't know them so who care is, but I think you should care
This is my whole point that someone in your life, we love you should care about their well being and Adnan big red flag to their well being the definitely deserves some follow up. Questions but I was open to the notion that its you negatively him anyway and what a weird anomaly always witnessing, because I'm not met anyone who drinks in the morning of a period can whose happy and exert addled with shame Now there is shame if your drink, the out of a period, can well you would just drinking it out of a well. That's a good point. Europe clearly high, but are you like kind neglect? All these people are squares and understand a drink in the morning and its fine or you know it's like what version of it it also just first anchor I mean I was driving her children around
selling you have that. That's a big deal, breaker yeah, someone somewhere me drunk while driving my children. That's really care if he of shame or demoralized during that gets less. That's a no go for me. Likely was just fine good old fashioned if, when I want to add one more light into it, what's money is because this scenario is so extreme right. I've discovered alcohol in your period that nine in the morning yeah. I think part of you then fills out all this other staff Cosette so crazy, but in my world every things the same. I know you I know all about you in your routine in your job, oh well, beam in your mental health. I'm aware of all that yeah. I think when you do the fantasy, without was alcohol? There's a whole different Monica? Well, there s,
that's. My point is: I was living real time. There wasn't another Monica. I was with her. So if the places where sweat, and I found some thing odd that you are hiding behind and you're still you right- I don't think like. Oh, he just has this extra thing, I'm like Oh there's, this whole area is light that he's keeping secret. Ah ha, that's a problem. Aha people keep secrets about things. Fine about, were all I'd, say yes and no people have secrets, are like about how much money they make their aware of what it does to other people. But as I see it, we re vetches leaping something like if someone asked how much money do you have you probably ants right like I don't do this, but if I was someone who took a leg, I read Michael poems Book and I loved it and I didn't care o dose of mushrooms once a week I might be,
clever enough not to share that info with people that that would scare, but that doesn't mean I feel, shame about it, the people that it would scare the people that care about you, the most. So the idea that you are keeping that from them so that you can do this thing private by sell for have this thing is, is not good for secrets? They give you shame is not good. I think we can agree on our part. We could build from a well sure that seems obvious, yet I, but I think their secrets that dont give you shame, there's just of its public knowledge that doesn't give you shame. Agree, oh really, Also. I am surprised that you feel that cause you wear honesty is like such a cloak, but it goes. giving you an example in you. Don't agree with that example. But for me it's a real example, which is I wouldn't want to tell someone how much money I make yeah sure there's a bunch of stuff I may choose, do not share
with people, because I am aware of the other person. I know that there are a variable in the equation, so I have to consider that other variable, because there's a lot of things that, like I dont, have shame about. I'm happy to let ten people now, but I dont, until a ten percent going to wear a thousand people now am. I now want to two thousand people do now, but I might be very comfortable. Ten people know yet that's fine, nothing! Everybody should know everything about everyone right, but I don't think the money thing is the same as the shrew because the money thing there's a whole like societal layer. On top like shouldn't, I about money that runs comparing money lying you are thinking about. The other person in this room is one your thinking about the other person, but in relation to you, what I'm going over this Soon, let's say was you know, Christians, mother, aha, whose traditional in many ways
and I would go, there's no way. I'm gonna make her understand the value of mushrooms ray so I'm only putting something in front of her that she's only gonna be judgmental of so. Why would I do that? I dont need to tell her that no need to make her worry and I have a different opinion. I reckon as they different opinions than people in the world like some. Some activities, scare people and some dope, like I write motorcycles. There are many women that text me like. I can't believe Chris
and let you do that very scary to them they would. That would be unacceptable that their husbands did it. I told you get it that's their prerogative, but you know we'll just never seen the same ever you wouldn't keep it a secret from that make you you, like. You, feel totally fine and good about yourself that you read motorcycles. You wouldn't be like many keep that seek or e yes you're right about that. But I'm saying if I established that there's these things that, like people, never see eye to eye on yeah. So then as you, just u explore different things along those lines and for me there can be gates of. Like oh five people know. Twenty people know a thousand people know the world can now yeah. I think you have you just have to be carefully after really using yourself? If you do that, because you have to start thinking like ok, the five people who I told about shrews, are they the people who are giving me this rooms, the people who are doing them? It's me, people who
all clear, and I am able able example if the people, your specific leaving our ones you're leaving out, because they might say to you, that's all Bree slow by you should do it and you just don't want to hear that Sure that will that's a very specific thing and I think that's a big problem. Why? If you were hiding it because you thought people might contradict what your opinion was on it? You don't wanna, be challenged on right, re yeah. I think that's like us, pacific thing yeah, but, but I can think of so many think. Let's say I started acting fifteen years earlier and I like to wear women's close now, I might not have any shame about that yeah and I might have told five people now
and I also might not have wanted the whole world knows it would have effected my career in so clearly there would be a secret that is a secret, and yet it doesn't create shame I'm comfortable with it, and yet I dont need everyone to lobby yeah. It's all specific to the example, because it's the history, the thing right like for flash rooms with you, the others fear around the sure, of course, and for Europe women's clothes. There's no fear right, you know in it. So it depends I gas on each services and with that Perrier I just think when something so secretive. It generally means there's a reason why it. There is a reason for the clothes because it were because society is not buried. Owed, ruin your career, that's the reason that makes total sense here. So, what's the reason, a pit about me drinking alcohol in Perry, I can't like we'd, have to find out what that reason is and then decide whether
that was healthier, not help me. Yet the every leaning a boil down to TAT Doktor Alex, which is like does it give you shame? Is that enough? Is it secret in you feel? Shame about it? I think that has to be the thing were evaluating so like give. If I find out you are drinking and then you didn't feel shaming you're, like ok I drink every morning, as you didn't tell me that you didn't nets with ray and then you are completely fine with it, the adding care yeah and then your life was exactly how you wanted it to be here. I just I am hesitant to say that one things back like any one thing is bad: some people can go, do cocaine on their birthday weekend yeah. I cannot now, but the person that can do that. Does that fifteen times their life that you know it's, I don't find that implicitly bad and I don't think anything's implicitly bad. It's all in context in its all about the I think the lake, the consequences of the behavior do feel shitty. Are you miserable? Are you to pay
asked. Are you unaccountable? Are you know all these things we'd have to use to evaluate whether someone's, thriving or not yeah and you are thriving on all those nations yeah. I guess it's tricky cause gathers just this conversation diskettes, so Lupi, because if I was drinking in the morning there would be consequences there. It was would be we're right Yeah, like what I have observed was there were no I was in here was this. I just discovered: there's been alcohol, this whole time and ale house ones are so just curious to me. Yes, yes, yeah well anyway, good debate, ok, John Meech, so he talks about the gallop survey that bit that surveyed the public about what was most important moment in the twentieth century. He said civil rights was forth and then he said one was worldwide to saying I was atomic bomb. He could remember
three. So am I looked it up? Ok, so one is world war. Two too is women gaining the right to vote and nineteen twenty woman suffrage. Three is the atomic bomb Oppenheimer for is the Holocaust Nazis in five? Is the civil rights, so he was wrong. Take I could open your name about the other day and ass, the meanest ogier civil rights civil rights was five five. Ok, Ok, six was world where one seven landing a man on the moon, sure eight assassination of President Kennedy, nine, the fall of the Berlin Wall, there's eighteen, but mine, got ta
what we are number. Let's do the atm I now it does make any sanity fillies. If they had nineteen, it was the nineteen hundreds of they did. Twenty was a twentieth century, your bride, eighty Migs Euro cents action may be only make sure. There's not, no eighteen team I'll keep going. Well. I yes, of course ok! So none the Berlin Wall? Ten is the depression. Eleven the break up of the Soviet Union dwell the Vietnam WAR, thirteen Charles Lindbergh Trans Atlantic flight. Fourteen the launching of the Russians button satellites, fifteen, the korean WAR, sixteen, the Persian Gulf WAR, seventeen, the impeachment bill, Clinton, wound and eighteen, the Watergate scandal involving Nixon. So this is pre normal
Clearly there is no. We now have you met yet this is. This is up until the year. Two thousand! Ok! Ok! Now? What do you think? Your number one would be most memorable events. I guess it must our most important task. Now, that's like this question too much pressure because you gotta get because, like you, let's say I say the advent of the internal combustion- someone quickly go like really more war and civil rights and then, if you like and ass a result, I am sure that our misadventure humanitarian ones that I'll just feel like an asshole about. I bet there, but most memorable memorable events is much easier for me, not important. just memorable, pry, nine, eleven and then and then space shuttle challenger, which you were born yet now, but I know about it.
You know about it in every kid. My age was watching it. I know it's better, I think memorable, because they were tragedies. Oh yeah, very memorable, as opposed to like the victories like it. I like that these many many are bad, but many are positive like that women's right to vote and civil right. You know all the Berlin Wall, yeah yeah you're right landing, a man on the moon, that's nice! That's pretty high that seven I would have thought it was higher, really because means away some of the left. Our home They literally went to this object that mankind's been looking out for a hundred fifty thousand years argue that's even more impressive than the Berlin Wall and more impressive than women's suffrage. I gotta say now I mean we does have woman suffrage as an accomplishment exiting earth. Your hosts come planet,
whats. Very sad! Is it's it's not as impressive? It's not as hard to leave earth is to change the minds of a whole country about a group of people. Those drew us through I wanna Lemur for a SEC. I mean the idea of going in a shop, no one sub, some awful like. I have no desire to go into space really, but I just wonder whether it would be like if I could just teleport up there. Now I wrote this movie phronsie Braun. I wrote for Paramount called Space race and I had to learn a lot about space space and then I read all these accounts from astronauts and there's a hype since a suicide rate among you, guys who have been up for a while eating its chemical it could be. It does. I think something nihilistic happens when you hear
exit and look back at that little rock that everyone so busy. I am like everything's important I now it did. You become literally the alien looking at them the monkeys, but why can it be the opposite? Why can you come back this be like for years? The pot- the positive thing I want to add is that every one of those guys in girls who ve been up there, almost all of them, will say every time they had free time like they have all these chores up there clearly here but I'm all the off hours. They all just stare at earth like it's supposed to be the most mesmerizing thing to watch in it. Never they never tire of it because you can watch Rick. Is the earth spinning in two thousand, miles an hour near travelling at seventeen and a half thousand miles an hour in orbit you're watching, like others, he, Egypt, oh there's this, oh there's a nervous. Why Jeanne? You know it's only disease like oh yeah, and you can see the whites the urban areas you can they say you can see the wall, the great wall of China from
I can barely see it. I can barely cedar an airplane I'll, go. We see here from Mars, the moon or low when you orbit you're only. I don't know how many miles you are up. I should remember, but you know you're not a far away from earth yeah, but even to get to the Tipp of The edge of the ladder hang diver jump off wow yeah definite memorable. Nine eleven would been number one for me from member ability no it's so crazy and cool is just an he mention this about president's. You clearly even begin to write biographies until like bananas
fifteen years after minimally, because you can't see the full scope yet and you don't see the things that they have planted? That then come back around and using grown. A virus has examined in Little Ba. It is so crazy. The think like as time is very huge historical moment like this is go down and biggest in his totally unknown what the alchemists yeah they will not be fully visible for fifteen years, minimal eight screw up go go go I mean I bet also one that would make the list doubly would make less than my book and I think in general would be Michael Jackson's. Thriller route.
You were right. I don't think that's gonna make you are less you're born. You now is Obama becoming President yeah. I can remember exactly where outstanding and check, but first, I am, I voted. Volume was Obama. Y yeah yeah was exciting, whose in Athens I was. I was born. oh, we were out of the country. We hear the results. Did you do male yeah. Why mayo? What was amazing is that there was some casts members who did not want him to be voted in. There were many who do yeah, so it was a quiet three days after we have in common We're getting me negative results back from MIKE over ten zero in this kind of quiet down
specifically that election and when this one coming up is gonna be the same and this past one was like it feels so intense like or side, although maybe at all yeah. No, I don't! I think it's you wish that there is this really extreme division, oh yeah, the lunar, how much more extreme. So I feel that are much more intense when somebody winds and somebody lose it. The first time I got the votes were Clinton yeah and I was just slow so excited so excited yarn and I were so excited. We call them our king, whose King Clinton, we wonder, worship him and make him the king our cylinder Hilary Random Clinton and call each other. We say this is the the Hilary, the rod man, the Clinton we had like always names for yeah yeah. well. It's just fascinate leading a look back to these.
So you said the you imagine, he's one in five eleven year old who have written a letter to Ronald Reagan. Ok, so I catch together. There is no way for me to know. Ok, he said he couldn't remember the day, but Reagan did an interview in the fall of seventy nine. sixty minutes interview and I looked. I couldn't find a sixty minutes interview in seventy nine. He did one and seventy five that was like a big deal motor is another one. Later you did a few. I think, but I didn't see a seventy. But maybe I'm so. He also use the quote. The arc of the moral universes on but advance towards, just as this may be removed of all time, is really metal. Ain't Obama had it on his floor in the overall. He do it under the carpet really cool. I now feel republican. You like throwing up at this last term,
It's a better word antagonistic when I'm any in any of the stick, but I'm gonna give credit to Republicans. I hope I hope can appreciate tat quote whether you're a Democrat or a public, and you shall hope that there's just as regards yeah yeah, if you'd dull, when I'm sorry, I don't like you You can be republican and have that same ideal, oh god, you I'm sure of men. Most of them be always doing through they all do so. He said the episcopal church, what she's a pardon has more women. Twelve percent of eleven thousand episcopal priests are female, horrible, no snow, horrible.
how many fire fighters are women. Can you compare the discriminating in church firefighting? That's a good question. I almost halved and firemen well, of course, as with their home. Now, even when the women we color your lady, a great man, was undergoing MIKE Ibrahim. Eight per cent of its european churches, blowing the fire fighters, out of the water or go again by the way, though I don't. I dont think that answers my question so great. So there's there's a lot of humans involved, but there's no deities there's no supernatural either real role for women in that religious. I'm sorry! I I telling me I gotta dilah caviar bets. Eight percent Arafat is in two thousand eighteen. Ninety three thousand seven hundred eight per cent of the fire fighters were female of the career fire fighters, four percent or female
there were seventy eight thousand five hundred volunteer fire fighters who were female, which was eleven percent of the total number of volunteer fire fighters was yeah yeah, you know volunteer. Fire fighters are right. They were in my town, you could volunteer, they give you a little light and if all hell broke loose in exceeded the cabin, city of the fire department. They'd call out the volunteers and that that you, like my neighbor, was found in any get to put that light on his, are there and then help, but he's not an employee it yeah our we did. We have to go through some training. They don't maybe the wild your why gala murder panicking they did. What are you doing this? You are the fire department, oh boy. Well, that was fun. I was lovely of historians on yeah. It's different. It's dear forget I love you. I love you