Dr. Mogel speaks with family #1: Erick and Elsie and answers the question: Will our children hate us if we stop loving them so much? She also teaches us a new word: Familect Listen to a BONUS EPISODE right now on the Nurture vs Nurture feed. And make sure to subscribe to weekly episodes, dropping every Tuesday only on the Nurture vs Nurture feed. Just search “Nurture vs Nurture” on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Or visit bit.ly/wendymogel.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
You are about to listen to the first episode of nurture versus nurture. The show we are most excited to be a part of it is produced by Wabi web Monica and myself and its stars. The incomparable doktor Wendy Model, who guides us with such expertise and comedy through the ever challenge, the role of parent raising kids. So if you enjoy this, I urge you to go over to the nurture versus nurture feet by searching, nurture versus, nurture wherever you listen apart, CAS where there is a bonus episode waiting to be listened to, so please subscribed and nurture verses, nurture wherever you get. Your podcast welcome too nurture versus, nurture. I'm doctor windy, mobile and I'm a clinical psychologist. I been in practice for approximately one hundred years and
I work with parents and we talk about their children to help them understand. whatever their struggling with. They are not alone in I've, seen it before it's a little bit funny and a little bit. Wonderful one of the things I do and working with parents is, I bring up words from other law. Which is Monica. Patman has so beautifully described this as a side hustle in linguistics. I collect words that are untranslatable into English and I tie them into the conversations with parents, so that not all We can we realise that our struggles are not unique to our family, but that the plan, has a way of describing some of our emotions, and some of our
dilemma is in beautiful single words. So today we are going to meet Eric and Elsie the theme of SAM pursued? Isn't thinking about new ways to demonstrate love these days, it's tough for families, to figure out how to strike a balance between fun and firm parents, or so close to their kids and when I was growing up? If someone asked your and the name of your fifth grade teacher. He wouldn't now right off the top of his head. and now we just have so much data. More always Percinet figuring it out and also really sweet and warm and affectionate french apparent have, with their kids
and at the same time they won't have structure and be firm and they want the kids to become independent but super accomplished, and then each child is different. These are a lot of balls to juggle, and often I see the most loving devoted smart parent playing, lame power. This is a term I made up for how parents will, just because the other parent is the closest one to them, and all the other parents fall that things are going so well, and then sometimes teams emerge in each parent is selecting their draft pick two day, you'll hear how are very dear guests, Eric and Elsie bump into each other as they negotiate their families rule
of engagement after our session. I will share with you what the author of the Handmaids Tail Margaret Atwood says about embarrassment and murder. I'll also tell you How, in international nuclear disarmament expert recommends handling differences of opinion? Will talk about the origin of the linguistic term Pham Elect. which is a concept that reveals why private jokes and nicknames are serious, love bombs. And I will give you an assignment to take home and use with your own family. Finally ruler a single word in portuguese Kafir name. That means Enderley running your fingers through the hair, of the one you love, we do not have a single word for this in English, and now join me in the eye.
for patient room with Elsie and her first, a disclaimer. What you are about to listen to is not a professional counselling fashion. Each episode, One time conversation and the advice I offered does not constitute psychological treatment or services substitute for professional diagnosis, intervention or behavioral health care in order to protect their privacy Our guests have been given pseudonyms and some personal details have been changed. If you have concerns about your child, being or your own seek out guidance from a medical or mental health, professional good places to start your child's pediatrician, the counselling staff at your child school and the american psychological associations. Comprehensive guide to finding resources
our state and now onto the fun began means we can mean who we are I'm going to tell you what I now looking, which is You have no eleven year old daughter, named daisy and a seven year old, name, Julie and the issue with that you'd like to talk about is structures and boundaries in raising children how to navigate and negotiate differing ideas of AIDS. Fun dad
and a more structured MA am we have dad Eric here and mom Elsie. Tell me what that looks like ok, Dominus, Deva, okay, so Eric is a wonderful dad. both of our girls, love and adore him. He is dead, Currently, the fine dad they love to eat shit. Everything's together. He lets them in my eyes, sometimes inappropriate, tv or movies. You know he would be the one heading up: a trip to Disney Land and bad time. Sometimes is more flu. Ed for ham, were, I prefer, a more solid. And time and routine overcome stubborn during Hugo, so sugar screen and schedule Gazed are the big three in most families. Let me know
why? This is a problem for you. Let's say it continued exactly as it is now: I mean, let's face it, I'm a finer person and you are in general, so it makes sense for me that have that role? Yes, he is more fine. I guess there will not be a huge issue. I feel like a lot of times. I pick and choose my battles and some of the questions that I have for you. our other things that I should let bother like, should I bet I love the way said that are there things that I should like bother me yeah yeah and I have a ban when my had a lot where I am, negotiating in my head? It's not a big deal. It's not the end of the world, its one night or you know it's the holiday they're gonna be fine that we got a balance out. That's a war of thinking that you're doing and so you're observing the behavior it pretty common you're used to it, and then you have an internal
battle going on. Should I bring this up? Will it do any good? Should I bring? in some whole new way, yes and then what do you usually decide alone? of the time I will let it go and how resentful, indignant, frustrated and ignore it? Are you its hands? I don't like getting to the place why Phil resent all so I try do that in our talking and decide. Ok, if I'm not gonna, let this let me then I really have to let it go, but I will say yes there. times where I will let it go, and I might be just a little. You know yet, like he's feel take forget our yeah. It takes me, the low, but being like that and then I'll get through it, and then it's fine and then there are times where I have that talk, and I make no. This is not Kay with me and I want to talk about it and say something and have a conversation. Does it do any good it does like. We had a recent disagreement.
Please tell so I did not know that day. Z and Eric had had a conversation about getting daisy on Tik Tok to see an older isn't that we have in the family, who has an account and she was excited about it, and I did not hear about this and cut I just heard that Daisy was signing up for Tik Tok. How did you hear she was come over two Eric and saying: ok, Now, what do I do it and he was telling her don't forget your password write it down somewhere, and I ask, but you joining the terrorist group ETA getting onto there was no discussion in my mind. I just react dead and that moment- and I said oh no- I don't want her on Tik Tok. That was a big things For me, in hindsight, I probably should have waited to maybe react. One of the reasons that Eureka
that way is you are at a state of semi the alert to alarm at all times and you're waiting for the Intel to draw up. So you heard the words get on and tiktok and it had not been passed by you, and that fell on top of a pile of frustration about child man's judgment and the ambivalence you have about Why are warm loving, fine guy so close to his daughters, daughters who are coming of age and we'll have crushes on boys and they are getting so deeply cherished by their sweet dad and at the same time. You know so much about what goes on in the world of social media and girl self esteem, an identity and sexuality that you have good angel and the Devil S. Each other
holders arguing at all times the corpus close some connects the right and left hemisphere of women's brains. Is the girl then in men means that women, now truly use both sides of their brains to make decisions, and for men it sometimes a little bit more easier and direct. Is it a cousin or friend was Antigua. It's my cousins, daughter, cousins to her sewing fighting celebrity family member on Tiktok doing it. durable bands and she has her own channels, so cool and now spoil sport. Here is hyper vigilant. That's what we call it in psychology jumping in to say you did what So what happened in that moment? The main reason I got irritated as we were with our pawed, and there were a couple of guys there to Algeria
very emasculating diffuses like now she's, not wanting to talk that our enemy And for his liberal, as I am parenting, I do default to whatever she says. I mean I'm definitely the beta as far as you Harry talk to whatever she says, but you can't read her mind right, and so that's during trend and that's your kind of moral position. But in a case like this- and this is a beautiful, Here you were joining with your daughter in celebration of cousins expansiveness on the magnificent new plot, warm tik tok swirling the pandemic world with joy, and then this bitch conduct and humiliate you in front of your friends, Renee ALARM Female pie right and you think, ok I'll just swallow this and eat some more sugar with the girls, and it will be totally anti exact, no citizen
so how did it get resolved the next morning. You know I went to bed it was bothering me, and I did feel bad for the way handled at some. No conversation between the normal were no not mosaics. Giving night we're both ha ha. So the next morning I said something else. You know I'd really like to get this off my chest ass. What time, what place, what words Why is probably around nine a m- and I think I use the words I'd really like to get this off my chest and where the two of you alone, we were very we're were alone, and he was not in the most open. but I feel like I really wanted to talk about what room were you in the kitchen seated standing, I was seated He was standing her had you had breakfast her, so I started with a really
get this off my chest and correct me if I'm wrong I said you know I want to have a conversation about Tik, Tok, oh sure, when a backup just a little bit cause we're going to Paris. words. Sure I really want to get this off. My chest strikes terror in every spouse. At all times he doesn't open the gates of grace and grass and happy anticipation. Oh wonderful, Elsie, every single thing. That's on your chest. I wish to hear already love even before I hear it yeah. It did not invoke that might not be so tat. He did not feel the super open after. I said that to you this tiktok thing, as I said earlier, I said I want to talk about Tik Tok. I really wish we could have had a conversation about it. Did you shake your finger like the identity,
in it. But maybe I felt like I asked verbal thing: Elsie is good at yelling at you, without yelling at you now, she's like the quiet power ass, the funny says: that's what the girl said so there and he said well, we really do need to have a car. Per SE is shared, and it's always what you say. Would you kind of? Is I mean you say: let's have a conversation about things, parenting things, but you just tell me the way it is. I mean I don't have a whole lot of input either your car Accepting what I'm doing or you tell me, to do, and I dont do it. I understand that
Do you really want to be able to have conversations on what to do want to hear from him? And that moment what could have said? Do that conversation for me bulkheads? So I'd really like to have a conversation about Daisy being on Tiktok and water jerk you or in general. I want you to do Eric, not the actual, What she might have said back, I tell you this: isn't the dream? Dialogue, Hombre, say the rapporteur dream? Ok, so I would say hey. I would really like to have a conversation about Daisy being on Tik Tok, and then he would say, yeah I realize I talk to her about getting on Tik Tok. Before I talk with you, I'm sorry I was you know thinking it might be fine, because her cousin is on there and she really wanted to see
but now after thinking about it, I can understand that. Maybe it wasn't, the best idea This is a dream car. I you know. I never happened to something like that or you know. Even he could say. I thought it would be wrong define for us to get on there, and then I could say I could see how that would he really fun fer you guys. Maybe we could think of a compromise Are you or I could get an account and we can look to gather at that? A cow and not have her. Have her own account getting on, thereby south. Being as I feel that she is not ready to be on social India, and she is also not asking to be on social media. She just really wanted to see what her cousin was up, to which we may all be interested in seeing and if you could care less when you said she can get on the thought. he wasn't upset. She's said: okay undulating it now. So
It really went well, except for that moment in front of the other, men, and I want to tell you about a study. I did You will know you're, not alone. I in viewed middle and high school age, kids around the country, in some around the world, and I said to them what your parents worry about, that they dont need to worry about which they worry about. That thing, what do you enjoy doing with your parents most? What are the sweetest things your parents do for you? that they may not realise how much we appreciate and what don't your parents understand about texting and technology. And the reason I'm telling you this is that what came out of this so frequently is how much the kids enjoy doing for Whiteley. Reckless things were
their dad and they called their mothers spun haters and it is only through yeah, but it's. their perception- and I will finish by saying what do you want me to tell your parents tonight- and this was amazing, because it was in love, towns in Texas it was in the industry, schools in Brooklyn with was everywhere. They all said the same thing. Is it just tell them to chill axe, just tell them to chill just tell them to chill out and relax. We are so devoted tee. Getting this right, yeah from moment to moment that what it does is it interferes with the bond of trust and good will and faith and grace yeah between fathers and mothers. So I would like to know from the two of you
Why you enjoy doing together that doesn't have to do with children, and what makes the two of you laugh well normally, when we were in a pandemic, would go and date night, every Friday night and we gotta hot yoga. both of you. Both on a Friday night, you would go to had yoga religiously than food, and how did the conversations go, especially after high yoga, great career, could learn a good news. I remember I would be driving the hot yoga. horrible little guy I'll talk to her all night, and then by time It did not yoga. That was like in love with her again, and this is so important for everybody. What we ve become is in waived to the children's development to their success. To their moons to their pride and
some very early neglecting adult relationships, respect for the dignity of men back for the tremendous responsibility that mothers take to keep track of everything and hot yoga plus dinner. It's such a potent formula. We hope that what you did for how long did you do that? You It is here and the girls. No you do that yeah yeah, it's really profound for them. to know that, because otherwise they feel a little bit like they're in product development modem. That how oh they're. Doing is all that feeds their parents and stuff demand from for being depressed, their God from being addicted and apparent parents from getting divorced. This is, in the child, mind gas
so now, where, in the ninth month, the law a pandemic. What are you doing together? I figured out how to set up a high yield. That thing in our Jim How did you hear about? It involves about ten heaters and tricking that thermostat think it's cooler than it really is so lever lever, a bull per se, and did it work? Do it yet? I still want to get hot or something Did you get like a gas burning, but it won't go rank. Hopefully we will burn the House tat, but it works great and we ve done what four classes our goal is to do to a week together and we hit back. All like Eric was our first week. that goal and we did it, and I mean historically for you and me drug attic for the first eight years, of our marriage. So we almost guy
divorce, and then we had have a lot of counselling vote when I was a drug addict Why is coming out of it? So we ve definitely figure and how to make our relationship a priority over the girls and let the girls now that we have a relationship separate from them and I feel like we such a low for you recent years and years that we ve been uphill climate, far in close for since I've been sober for seven years. So that's definitely help to imagine you think we'd be as close as I can drug problem. I'm sure you would not- and this is the advantage of the people and recovery- have they have tools and insight Everybody now needs to be in recovered from the culture yeah, because culture is driving parents, crazy and not everybody can him build a high over studio in their home, but everybody conduce, some version of that right. Talk to me about humour in the family, about private.
jokes there's a determined linguistics, its Pham Elect yeah, and it means the private lives the kind of a family and eat. Family has their own. Everybody who to see me one of the first questions I ask them is their pet names for their children and if there really really mad at their chill an oar worried for example, that their son has terrible character disorder on to being serial killer any minute. They say nothing, not knight errant bending pet names, and I just sit there and wait and they always do so daisy unduly. What do you call them so daisy, weaker all days, bag and duly. The Dalai Lama, for whatever reason, Do you really here and jewels chairs are very peaceful energy about yeah daisies much?
like me and joy is much more serious being funny. It is important in our family, and I think that is an huge part. Two Eric everything Humor, you don't know anything to seriously, which is actually very good for me, and I see that it is very good for our girls and then, after almost dying. But a couple drug overdose is it's like. Is Tik Tok, really that serious? We look out for a night or any of this I think that in general I get triggered by the over parenting culture. I see these wives talking so intimately about. These issues like helicopter parents and Elsie hates wonderful we'll be overrun will be talking now struggling to Peterka chip and free, of them like a helluva yeah yeah like no annexes two parallel where you to say what kind of it
Are you to allow this tiny little child to be honest, slimy platform, and then he comes around marking The very devoted moms till the heard about you meant that you're talking about that really important is it comedy, is tragedy plus time right, and you know or from tragedy both of you do so, That's where you me, and you have a very nice appreciation of the France is in your temperament and how you see that in your daughters and for all get complicated, a lot of us, her introverted extrovert, and there is a wonderful book by Susan Kane called QUIET, yeah render. This has, I think, I'm a what? Why was the security sector for fifteen years and I think I've been introvert. There was forced to be an extra for years and I think
kind of one of the reasons I got a drug problem because I needed to get em up, have an outgoing personality, and I read quiet and it's not talked about a lot like this- sure thing where you want all the kids have going personalities gives those are the ones who are successful and those are the ones who make it and the ones who are introverted while they don't get as high as jobs is people who might be extrovert so our society focuses so much praise on extrovert kids. They, I think it makes some interprets feel like they need to be extroverts and some currents of kids who are try slow to warm, enjoy their own company, feel like air defective. Imagine a world where every single person was gregarious leader. It would be an oil, not tolerable, but that's what we expect from these kids and the great paradox is the most important twenty first,
Tree scale is not learning Mandarin or coding. It is communication, any billowy to talk to other people and to listen and to not think up the next thing, you're going to say, while your list yet like, I think my intuitive parenting style is not the right eight apparent like I think at first. I want to parent on light fear. And creating children who succeed in a world that or be eating. So I have two always logically back off that might be like No, I'm much better off, raising kind kids, who are nice everybody and have good verbal communication skills. Like I logically made myself now focus on grades? You know, I always tell them
I rather have someone tell me that you are being kind and tell me you're being smart enough. A teacher tells days, use being kind and sometimes sheep, the students that are having a little bit harder time next daisy because show how how wonderful down make me feel now wonder anything, although I have you have this lingering, like paranoia that I'm raising children who are not going to be able to survive in that world. That's hard to survive in I'm constantly putting that beast in me down I'm a little bit paranoia about just that world ending in that have to survive? I got twenty years of military freeze, dried food in case there's a pandemic and food runs out, turns out a pandemic you're, not paranoid. You are correct and this is the really tricky part so in some ways are desire for children to be
Lee. Armed with a layer of skills, for anything that will come up is a reflex right now, because the world is ending at some point quite true when it will be- and so we displace all of our worries about the following things: climate change. Aging. Our health the economy, no matter what people status is Freud calls this the narcissism of small differences, and their social comparison theories has where ever you are on the socio economic ladder. You worry that their people, above you and children will not have the security they need. You said that that was your intuitive parenting style. I think it's, your brainwashed parenting, Stella ERA, I dont believe that's your intuitive one, like my go to like little girls, do something that Does it necessarily in their best interest but maybe would become
I ain't and I would think of. Maybe I should tell him. I know you need a look out for yourself first and then I have to kind of but that down in that part of the reason I said that I let Elsie make a lot of them nineteen decisions: how season I ve been motivated by money or fear and she sort of parents. Way. So I generally will listen to her not argue about most parenting thing worries us. I think I would have even been worse. If I would have boy then like look, you got it while there are killed man, because it is a hard world out there and you better like it all, you can and be manipulative and figure out how to get to stand firm in european investment banker. Look What happened to exactly, which is generally will go some way towards the end. So that's why I think I was kind of raised in thick sat and money where the gall saw you now that I am brainwash for my own kids. Don't wanna put my own
brainwashing in to them- and it takes some mental energy on my part, to just be like just is kind kids, and you don't want that about at some point was if I look around all the people, I know there are a lot of smart people who are miserable, but there are very few kind people who are miserable. So if you can get to your kids being kind, I guess they're probably go, have a more satisfied life, even if they're not as Actually successful were what not, really being okay. If my daughter's want to be teachers or something that's very point to society, but doesn't this silly make a ton of money? That's great! It's also thinking really far ahead the right. Well, that's what the twenty years of food is, for example, would you starting now
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These are the little bumps in the road that you keep hitting and they are so coming right now. So what did we have? We had sugar screens meantime or screen content and schedule better time and its also the stuff that you really love that I went Deasey Watch or talk to her about so Daisy and Eric have a beautiful friendship were relationship rate. I shouldn't say friendship relationship. Tell me about Daisy and Erics shared interests. could be harm. Movies could be something that doesn't seem entirely savory wholesome. Wonderful and predicting a bright future for her. What do they? Both love, they're, the ones with similar temperament yeah right? Yes, they are both out. The Box thinkers and they love that sort of conversation example play
daisy knows that she can go to her dad and ask him anything and she is going to get a very full and honest answer. Is it too much you what he turns her. I think it's too much. I remember well, I had the epiphany that I was gonna tell her everything get ahead of. It was in kindergarten as driving her home and she said dad boys in the class told me that my vagina gonna start bleeding everywhere, and so I went Greg Greece's kindergarten and so I might well, Let me everywhere, then she's going to plead light up. So at that point I remember just gonna, get ahead of this, and she can hear all this stuff for me rather than some kids at the school and you ever since then she comes to me. Let me the other day. She said
the boys on the radio that she got surfing where they were playing with the dial and she's in this and they kept last. when I got to sixty nine and so the whole areas that she's like what is sixteen I mean, so I am explaining our activities in the outer the next time. The getting ahead of it is a very good an intention rife, because what you're trying to Do is not let her get polluted with me. Information, distortion, scary thing, humiliating writings, the peace to plug into that is causing. development, an emotional development and this kept getting ahead of it. What parents wished to do is sort of get it over with all the truth, at once about sex about money, about drugs, about race, about every touchy topic, every sensitive and important topic, and First step is to find out what they already know and when
distorted. Then you correct: right at their level and say not too much but be the Asko parent, which is what you are right for daisy. This may be both ask a ball and some hot juicy topic: She could pass right long and then Elsie would be hearing about it in the air. I tell you, gotta be protecting one of joys. Friends was telling nor about sex the other day, Daisy said daddy, she's, really too young to be hearing about sex. You know you need to talk to Julius friend about it. that's really poignant and if I'd moment when me older, sibling steps, in to a respectful, unreasonable pair mode. We want them to do that they had so
little that they feel they can contribute to the family. Other then how popular they are, how terrific their graves are, what a good athlete they are and that they're gonna get into Stamford and ordinary stuff like watching out for the sex knowledge of her little sister is really something of a lot of dignity. Yes, he is and would you agree that daisy, we parent differently than Julie because down seems to be okay and not get over stimulated out of Control Julia's more sensitive, the engine is more sensitive, which one of you
it's to them. They liked to be read too. Do you read to them? This is a good question, so Eric puts daisy to bed which, as a whole topic, I want to get into an eye typically but Julie, to bed, and whenever I put Juliet about as long as it's not getting too late, we always read books together and we cannot take turns and that's when we do our reading as before bedtime. That was always our routine with both the girls when area We had like a bedtime routine and always involved books before bed lullaby almost the whole thing. What with thing? After all, by it sounded like sandwiches, and I know I wasn't that Alan meshing turning this does so, as Daisy has gone,
an older. She loves her dad to put her to bed because, as we were talking about the sum of their favourite pastimes, the other is to talk Nan for her to ask all the burning question she might have things Come up or something she's curious about. I mean the shoe extolling me bout, her sufferings they had yet over the day tat. She tells Eric everything which I think is awesome, and I love that they have such a close relationship and that we're close to, but she definitely knows that she's gonna get for everything from him and she loves that cause. Like I said, they're both outside the box. She really must be stimulated and interested in a conversation, and she gets that with her dad. Ok, how different chicken one piece Eric do. ever feel she apps up the drama of some of the social issues to be entertaining for you, because
it should get a little bit boring. I knew you would want to cut it off at several. I'm gonna kill myself the boredom, ok good, I'm so glad you're bored with my kids than anybody. Everyone S board with Arcadia everyone hates SAM yawned love. More than anything I got there make very, very boring, yeah yeah, yeah, ok, clear, so here's the problem with you, sir resting the boredom too long at the opposite, the public relations firm, it is the captivated by incarcerated audience. Member right, your teaching, I'm that other people you're right, I'm going to be that point now, yeah the wonderful thing the reality is that friends give you all if he had you knee right and it overpowers what parents do. But I would like you to consider
cutting things off when they're getting dull do ever do I love the fiddler making right now, maybe I'll buy. Really. This is some pressure. Central never be eleven again raw lie and she loves her daddy. So he will use What does she say? He will say because they have very long drawn out bedtime how long is- and that was one of my questions- about boundaries and structure- yeah, I'm ok. Half hour after, like bed time but like our hour and a half ago, really love, but you think this almost eleven euro kid is gonna. Go to bed at seven o clock. I use I am not even her friends, she will got about seven in my mind. I want her bed at night in a perfect world again for David I would love for her to be in bed at nine o clock. She can be really.
Buck interrupting you re here to introduce a scary topic: borderline personnel It disorder synergies- and I was saying this is that people who have this condition they feel their identity only an what how Enmesh meant with other people, so one of our goals for daisy, who does not have borderline personality disorder, is to help her learn to keep good company with herself. That's my concern at the heat that's it, almost he's. Gonna kill us here here he will behave, notes and fun of our bedroom, daddy com, please every single night! I will. the unknown in front of our eyes looked like what is written in how bigger the letters does it have little hearts? No, as usual, ex scribbled out on a white piece of paper, my high labour. I got eight and a half by
eleven one color of her later yeah. You didn't take a lot of time to do it. Just like daddy com, please, she will see certain alarm and also going back to your point of having this special time between the rob ass. For me, I wanna get those girls in bed and easy is now older, so its later than has been so. You know we have a lot of time at night after their embed, and I would love to start up and watch shows and the bed I'm situation with Eric and Daisy really impedes on that. The younger women yeah wrenching she's, the younger women and she's doing a fabulous. job of carrier evading the guy, and it's such a pickle for you, because I like that you're beautiful daughter and this great relationship with man. So you don't have to talk about the serpent. I am assuming that when you were growing up, nobody did this for you the
way you are doing it for daisy. While you I mean it's a different world, I was only kid too now definitely and have you got to talk about it? I feel a guy stupid that I'm a little bit too accommodating and any hard to say no to hurt you I am pulse, is so good right so worthy and boy. He is learning all kinds of technique. Felt who we wouldn't mind if they softened up a little bit in some of them might disappear. So an only child, is sometimes juggling both parents issue in kind of an adult way, and you don't have a sibling to sort of mock. The parents were fanned by what you're trying to provide for. is the land of the cushion of dad in it.
Endless nurse, it doesn't have boundaries and their surprising part, and this feels abstract, so it so hard for parents. The time you spend with it. either the amount of time, and they don't want away too heavily on humour, but right now, in a pandemic enemy, now dead, the leisure and enjoyment and comfort and fun between the two of you is a two wrecked nutrient for the children. feeds them, no matter how much sugar they eat, no matter how much screen time they have or how much tiktok they're watching, no matter how early or late daisy goes to bed. This piece is the ballast, This is what they stand on. This is how the ship, even when the sea get rocky yeah, feels safe. So, by the time he crawls
There are born to death and ran a calendar? The two of you reconnect, an You ve been pc and its growing their frustration on my pc, its one of those things are like Bastard they can to like this is getting longer and longer and longer. I just want to point out how overly rational she is. So you know clearly that it stretching out more and more ya know clearly that this is his better girlfriend and you're thinking. What am I tapped, liver, yeah and I have tried- I told them. I have this great idea that time has been stretched out so lay. I think we need to examine a step. You right here. I'm sorry picks how much I have this great idea very similar too. We need to have a come I'd like to have a conversation about this. These are the opener.
said: alienate your conversational partner. They don't care about your idea for its own sake. They may care about the content of yeah. Well, I was just trying to broach the subject with Eric about how to get the Daisy bed time situation under control. Ok, stop right here, just trying to broach the subject with yeah yeah, so I had the suggestion that they could start earlier. But leaving it up to him to do it. It just didn't happen. I have to be the one that driving the boundary he's not moral. This is deeply emotional, its habit yeah, that's just developing and she's out growing you're. So the part I want you to be prepared for is that daisy. May
her strategies, which is why I ask you what the notes look like may produce going crossbones on them now I fear Hampshire's of herself holding daggers yeah and she well. I ve look out of her pain and her need full time with your precious time. Tat belies the agony of her day and I'm. Not in any way thing not to be empathic with her yeah. You listen to her, and these are the three words really hard for parents to faint. I want you to say to her room, tell me more, instead of coming up with a solution or putting it off. So this is not the way you would think it would work re if you say, tell me more, it's very respectful, but it puts her back in a relationship with herself instead of
outsourcing the pain to dab and the frustration to mom and then making the relationship between the two of you saw light lean, more fragile, yeah, definitely parenting books. L say: look, you shouldn't be friends with your kids and I don't know that's right or wrong, but I'm definitely. If I am, I too good a friends with our older kid, because maybe she's too comfortable and there's not much of a pair, daughter relationship as there needs to be, I mean look. I am crazy man bipolar to under oppressive. So I have a lot of that. High emotional energy in our fishing ship analyses totally Norma flat lines as far as like her emotions are always within a very narrow range. These,
stereotypes and lies about the two of you you're, not crazy, you're, not- and you are not totally normal and right here- is a daisy learn to keep herself emotional company. I am afraid that Iraq has become her human lanky. Because she says she can't sleep without him, she use, although, oh sir, do stay till she positively
nobody else can live and again should be bleeding is now ready. I want a hard day of life in our house. I didn't tell you we set it out with a wire if they go Wendy on she's out of varied manipulative, let it I mean just lazily. I've gotta go with that they're, going to call it cool leverage to bear at Christmas, so smart right, Emmi, her birthdays tomorrow and she's sloppy Britain did. You know tat. I am you: VE only got one more night to sleep with me, for I am allowed by them on twelve. I'm not gonna. Wanna have anything to do with me. I'm gonna have my own live envy social amendment, friends, you were an attorney that the directive does not turn here under of early yeah He is so, you can admire that without taking it at face Value
he's on this damned she's, the witness for the defense right now or the defence attorney. I might open to light that this is a problem that I carry. The figure of the tricky part you're going to be tempted to explain it to her, and I want you to rise oversight. Is this where we try to sell? them the good emotional technique and things free right now? Deasey. It will be so much better for you if you learn to fall asleep on your own and if you learn to have internal conversations about some of the social stuff way, lying that you are still completely. really willing to lie down on the floor and let her do her emotional dance on your ballot. You re and just knowing it is going to guide you and where you want to go. It's just like. I was bringing up with you Elsie V in
prudent directory remarks. We may think about what we want to say it just alienating bores everybody else and dilutes your message right how Are you going to go about this? Well, I have no about reading Harry Potter, so maybe I start that at eight thirty and maybe do it call nine hundred and thirty and just make sure I'm out of there at nine hundred and thirty is nine hundred and thirty good enough. I don't know I'm interested in you reading for one hour at night, at the end of your long pandemic day, yet, whilst actually thinking the book on tape, so I wouldn't have to actually read by both been lying therein listening our for now, it's probably not realistic way, It would be a half hour but messed around for a while. Where does the mess around look like? Why do some sort of play the cheese made up and she wants to perform at or shark? Is it good now,
never do. Tell her look. You gotta get your content better when you're doing little place, cause they're, boring, and then you don't pretty boring so- and I tell her this and run of a lot of people, but you know you got to get your game up if people are going to watch your little place, so she kind of uses me to test it out sometime think she's doing if she's leaving with her need an empty lying to both of you that she is so vulnerable, even in this package of extreme strength, unlike wimpy- says embroidered with herself company. For you to start thinking about be
prepared and it's so good. The train is an attorney because she's going to pull out all the stops out ray and it will feel scary at first and then for both of you so much easier and more comfortable and the metabolism the energy between the two of you will write because you won't be drained. I picture you crawling out of their round here comes with hook, yeah. It's time, some needs to change with that dynamic yeah. Definitely until we get out of there Maybe I shouldn't be falling asleep. I would have been lying asleep and I follow. sleep there, and then I moved to our bad it like twelve, ok, so that your sleep drug, that's your medication, sober person, might is dream boredom. But it's like you
become a nest. The ties by this process right and justify a by giving your poor suffering daughter everything. She me right and just as I said, not to have a big theoretical, psychological spiritual conversation with her beforehand. You can definitely let her now that this is the plan When I could you say, look nominating I need time together I mean it Nicholas that were not able to watch our shows till. I know one color ridiculous right, because that puts the responsibility on her yeah, I'm sure she's, brilliant. We get seduced all the time by how articulates insufficient created. These kids are, most of them were younger them their years, their nine emotionally asthma
Sure, as any of us were no matter. How must stop yacht ran their age because we had so much more independence, and so there complicated package is there really articulate? They can argue, you many thing their little attorneys, their brilliant and At the same time, there is a baby there right, so if you hated the baby. This is ridiculous mom and I need more time together. What am I doing? You're asking her to solve your problem, also inviting heard to think o arms. My dad's gonna get divorced. Think they want almost did much good I think I know she knows because used over here, that they now want to share with them that shit, sailed here, because he is an over share is leaving the port every
old, Eric every day and every single parent has made one billion an egregious shocking vile mistakes and the kids, mostly Turner, perfect right, find real life right, so you don't have to boy into her, except to say here's the plan and then expect her to do every single thing in her power to erode it and this is a wonderful opportunity for you to and that's how we started today, entirely boundaries and limits and structure. Yeah, kids, love, serendipity, excite, meant adventurer, they actually don't have narrowly as much adventurous. They need and they loved structure and read tool and predictability in twenty two problems with pandemic that everything's pretty unpredictable. The more you can provide predictability and structure at home. They are not going to vote for it. Why they're not going to say? Oh thank you, Father
Thank you so much for enlightening than issue between you and mom. I would never want to stand in the way, but in a gracious, so she's not going to say that, but you are going to stick with your planet right and the peace. About reading to her is that, instead of downloading all of the social stuff to you, which, at your age and your gender, maybe if not the most fascinating, subject matter in the world, you can talk about the characters in the book you can. Gossip, like were easy: what you don't wanna do about other adults, alright, other parents or her framework is right, our kids, exactly who but characters in books you get to teacher values. If she tells you a bad dream, you can go into the dream with her, then what happened What happened in tat monster you? Why did it look like a big wise? It is more for Julie, little bit young for daisy, but it might fit and then you're with her
her unconscious and you don't have to be physically present with her right on time, I really want you to think of it as a habit and a custom and not any sort of emotional damage at all nurture versus, nurture, we'll be right back audible is the leading. provider of spoken word entertainment all in one place an audible, you can find the largest selection of audio books, ranging from best learn to literary classics, to memoirs parenting books, true crime and podcast during the pen my quarantine. Many of the parents, I'm working with him. My practice have told made their young children are soothed and entranced by audio books, which is a welcome respite for the whole family from screens as an audible member? You will get one credit every month, good for
the title and yours to keep for ever in your audible library. You will also get full access to the plus catalogue, its filled with thousands and thousands of audio books, general entertainment, guided fitness and meditation workout sleep tracks for better rest. An ad free versions of your favorite chosen exclusive series to start your audible, subscription, visit, audible, dot com, slash nurture or text nurture. Two five hundred slash. Five honey, visit, audible, dot com, slash nurture and you aren t you are ie or text nurture to five o o dash five o o? so seven year old this year, the books called your when you're old your two year old, your three or honour this seven year old book,
called life in a minor key, ok very info didn't dare very melancholy. It was written in nineteen. Eighty five, its relevant today, except the way they talk about how independent the seven year old should be in all the Torres they should be doing around the house by. They understand that its stage of pulling in two themselves their quieter and you already have one that's a little bit choir do in her sister and I have in year olds does not fit every child depends on. There ferment, their environment, their whole situation. They tend to be angry, their angry at everybody. There very expressive our very colorful in their language, their motion, their moods and so we're all ready, inviting her to take all of her first fishermen and resentments and all the dark stuff and just dumping on dad, and she will get angry
she will getting right yeah. She will have these bouts of getting really angry over something and in all, just right the way for her and she will then come back and apologize allotted time. She will have almost like a temper tantrum a little better job, but she does have some insight after words that she'll come back. How frequently does not happen the temper tantrums and end the apology? It's like every other month. Oh not often, maybe a little bit more and like what you get in the car the other day on the way home? No I've maybe see more like one time a week once every two weeks, what sort of thing triggers it's a lot, her little sister well past her off or something you know related her sister indirectly. Facts her and she gets very angry about a rare about her sisters, privilege her
sisters in asking her like what you ve done has affected me. I mean she'll, get really mad, you know like say, they'll make a mess together and I'll. Ask them to clean it up and don't think she did more and maybe she dies and she just gets really frustrated at her sister Anne We will do the little parenting thing she always telling me. Well, you need to make sure that she is responsible for her message you I remain are make thank you, honey. She only needs one mommy. I appreciate your about she's, always trying tell me what I should be doing and I need to make sure she is responsible and you're doing this and she's gonna, be this she's frustrated with what you talk, about his frustration and she so smart that she's bins into, if only you are a better mother I wouldn't have to deal with You can't handle it and yet, without sounding two French easier,
who can say it sounds like its frustrating to trust. name the feeling and to give them the opportunity to figure out what to do when she has a temper, tantrum and then come to do with an apology. Why you can do is unpack it a little bit to see what triggered it yes said to her next time. In that situation, and how would you handle the watchers goods all in that situation? What were you aiming for because what happened is a four year older, the three year old took over and that twenties apologize Think she knows it's baby, but we want to give her the tool so that next time I'm kinda shit can manage it and she won't need to end up with the bipolar sty all apology, gelato. Her frustration comes over Julie and I'm always protect
of the seven year old Julie and then a rebuttal will be daddy. You protect her to me she's not gonna, be able to deal with life because she's gonna knock. be able to deal with adversity because you protector from so much. She says she won't be able to deal with adversity. Maybe I may add adversity, windows prior silly, yeah she's. I keep seeing manipulates, but you can be manipulated. Is being a kid. You there's a great word that you can use, which is nevertheless yeah, just say nevertheless, because we really want them to fight. is a wonderful opportunity for them to learn how to manage aggression are kids in general are deprived of a lot of good danger. There is a child development special
named Ellen Sand setter. She does research on the anti phobic effects of thrilling experience, and she says the kids need to be exposed to sharp tools that they can cut themselves with great heights where they could fall bodies of water where they could Brown fire travelling at great speed. It way finding finding their way on their own. Our kids almost never get to do. Thy and aggression You need to learn to deal with aggression. So many of the times you say to them, I'm confident you guys are going to work out around and they will hundred percent disagree, we are seeking to say to yourself here. That is our time for today. Thank you, sir.
Very much for coming in in talking weighing the elder brown. Thank you. Thank you. My ok and good luck to night need, like you know what to do. Yeah, it's a process we know two goal oriented just the way we don't want to be to go oriented about whether days is going to be a teacher right ass for not right, you're gonna be with gonna be ok, what so same time,
I speak for a short so that without FIN Eric and what a privilege it was for me to spend time with people this candid this week and this warm and for those of you who have never been to therapy it's good to realise the privileged therapists feel. to be trusted with intimacy and to be invited in to such an interesting or Ral when I was child, and I would go out to dinner with my parents. We would fit in the booth in a restaurant. All four of us, I have a sister, all four of us pressed against the back of their bank cats and when
Talk so wicked eavesdrop on the other people and then on the walk home from the restaurant. Put it all together. So do you think that was second marriage? and she was so sweet, but the mother was cut so now I still get too did I'm really happy Eric and Elsie. Here's something Eric said. I think the main reason I got irritated is we were with our pod and there were a couple of eyes there and it was very emasculating. She was just like no she's, not watching Tik Tok that it and it made me think about a quota of Margaret at once. The author of the amendment. his tale, who said men are afraid that women will laugh at them, and women are afraid that men were killed and a goal in our culture right,
now is to share the valuable input of each member of the team and, in the past months, Eustace their kid wait until your died gets home and that meant the father had authority and would punish the children and now the dad get home, and very often he feels a little bit in the way. What can I add to this group that they don't already have? How can I fit myself in and again this is not a list be true of all families, but for more and more of the families I see the father has a little bit of trouble. Figuring out how to place himself in the mix. So my counter cultural perspective on this is treating both parents perspective with calm curiosity
dignity, so here we have Eric lying down with his daughter until she falls asleep. If you will all your day with acting towards the children like a concierge, a butler this secret, police, all life, coach and a sort of cheap publicists telling them have fabulous. They are you're going to be so tired that you won't have any energies left for your partner. It doesn't leave time for pleasurable adult interchange at the end of the day, and by that I do mean serious conversations, so we had Elsie talking about wanting to get something off my chest or having a serious conversation trying to do that at night.
when you're out of emotional fuel and you're tired. We all regressed into belligerent babies or indignant martyrs. When you do want to have a serious conversation about Jeff It is our opinion. One way to do that is radically counter cultural right. Now, it's listening! If you can postpone persuasion until each of you can state your partners point of view to their satisfaction, you have solved ninety five percent of the conflict. Moving along private jokes, the family act
This is a term from linguistics and it refers to the creative playful language made up of pet names inside jokes slip of the tongue that become part of the family vernacular Often they are words that come from my shared story. Every household and social group in the world have a family his words, never make it into the dictionary. They are often inspired by two words that come out of a child's mouth. The origin of the phrase. Pet names is great,
and please excuse my ignorant about how to do a greek accent, but it comes from hypo core eyes by which means to call a person by a pet name which comes from Corey Ease if thy, which means to caress Queen Elizabeth. The second was apparently nicknamed Gary by young
William, William was unable to say Grannie yet and the names so in a world ever more public, its ever more special to keep some things: private and personal for every parent to freely use, affectionate pet names for their children, often and easily, but not in front of their friends and think back to the pet names. Your parents called a: u what apparent called you would M parent called you in our family group text. We will often just speak entirely in our family tact and it helps us right now we're all living a different cities, and it helps us feel both or personal family history.
the end united in the moment. So it's a powerful tool and the brazilian word, Kafir name and probably pronouncing. That, improperly, also is the act of tenderly running your fingers through the hair of when you love or stroking their hair softly to make them feel safe com and relax. Some extra cuff renee between Eric and Elsie can also help soothe the frustration they feel as they works so hard at doing parenting right. The kids end up getting so much time and tenderness and the parents end up feeling just a little bit deprived when we take family life too seriously. We find ourselves unbalanced, grunt
with each other and playful with the kids, it's helpful to have a top down perspective on fun and affection and run our fingers through each other's hair. Thank you so very much for listening and what a pleasure it was for me to spend time with Eric and Elsie Great session, same time next week or so proud and honour to have Doktor Wendy on the network. Right now we have a bonus episode up that you can go, listen to go over subscribe to the nurture versus nurture feed by searching, nurture versus, nurture wherever you get your podcast.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-04.